October 24, 2025 • 49 mins
In this powerful episode of Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo convenes Father Gerald Murray and Robert Royal to unpack the week’s biggest stories in the Church and the world. From King Charles’ historic visit with Pope Leo in the Vatican and the growing divide inside the Church of England to shocking reports of a major restructuring of Opus Dei, the Posse analyzes what’s really happening—and why it matters.
They also tackle the Vatican’s response to Christian persecution in Nigeria, the continued suppression of the Traditional Latin Mass, and troubling trends inside Catholic higher education, including Georgetown’s new president publicly rejecting Church teaching. Plus: Pope Leo’s economic comments, Spain’s free-speech ruling, and why weakness in Rome could embolden radical Islam.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The King of England meets with Pope Leo in the Vatican.
What's really happening there and what might be possible? And
the Cardinal Secretary of State at the Vatican downplays anti
Christian violence in Nigeria. We'll tell you why the Prayerful Posse.
We'll explore it all next. Welcome to this important Prayerful Posse.
(00:27):
Be sure to subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful
way to support our work totally free, and visit Raymondarroyo
dot com for more.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father
Gerald Murray is here and editor in chief of the
Catholic Thing dot org. Robert Royal joins us, and I'm
Raymond to Royo. Thank you gents for being here. King
Charles is visiting the Vatican to meet Pope Leo and
they're sharing what's being built as an historic moment of
joint prayer at the Sistine Chapel.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Now, just for.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
The record, this is the first time a Roman pontiff
and an English monarch had prayed together since the Reformation.
This ecumenical gesture focuses on the themes of Christian unity
and care for creation. Bob, how significant is this moment
for the Church of Rome and the Church of England
(01:19):
or is it?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, that's a good question, because here we have the
heir to Henry the Eighth, who split off the British
Church from the universal Catholic Church and is himself even
somewhat retreating from being the chief of the Anglican communion
because he's when he was a crown king, he talked
(01:43):
about how he wanted to be the king of faiths
in a simply the Anglican faith. So it's, you know,
it's part and parcel of all that ecumenical activity that's
been going on for decades, partly in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Partly elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I wish this were really a kind of a step
forward in authentic acumunism, which we mean coming together, you know,
in common acceptance of the truths of Christianity in their
historic meaning. But I have a feeling that this is
just a kind of a side encounter at a time
(02:20):
when the Church itself is not very strong in England,
and when the Church of England itself is in at
crisis and not least because of what it's doing itself.
I mean, it's kind a female Archbishop of Canterbury about
to be about to be installed in March, and so
there's there's a wide gap here. It's, you know, it's
nice to be nice to one another, but beyond that,
(02:41):
I don't think it's as much.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
It might even be a kind of.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
A net negative father.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Also part of this meeting is a visit to the
Basilica of Saint Paul outside the Walls, that's where Saint
Paul was martyred. There, Pope Leo has bestowed upon King
Charles the title of Royal Comforter of Saint Paul, and
he's given him a special chair there which will be
(03:06):
used by the king and one presumes his successors when
they visit the basilica.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
What is the message being sent here.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Well, this is an updating of the custom that exists
in many churches, which is that the Catholic royalty would
have a throne or a seat in which they would
be seated place a special recognition. So this is not
a Catholic royal, but nonetheless it's a Christian royal. And
as Bob says, this is an ecumenical sign.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
It really isn't.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
The essence of a humanism, essence of acumunim is this
unity in Christ, in the one True Church. That's the goal,
according to the Second Vatican Council. So if this contributes
to that, it's fine. But it's a nice gesture, but
it doesn't I think, really advance the cause of Christian
unity all that much.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean, Bob, you mentioned it, Henry the Eighth.
I mean it was a heretical king. I mean, he
broke off from the church and Charles has continued in
that line. So it is odd to be bestowing a
seat like this a place of honor in a Catholic
cathedral of such a steam in Rome.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, it's an oddity. I don't know why exactly they've
decided to do this. There must have been some back
channel conversations about its.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Certainly a way.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
To make nice with the UK, but the UK is
in very serious trouble these days. I mean, we see
all the time the kind of random violence, knife knife
things that occur in London and elsewhere. You see the
Muslim disorders that are taking place. There's an absolutely scandalous
(04:50):
case that there's going to be an Israeli soccer team
playing in Birmingham against a British team and Israeli fans
are being barred from going to the stadium. So England
is in is in a great crisis at this point
and probably looking for friends. I have to assume they
like the fact that the Vatican was able to work
out this deal with them. But what it means for
the church, I don't know. It's nice to have friends,
(05:13):
but Christianity is not just about making friends, his father
rightly says, it's the unity in the one true Church. Yeah,
it should be the kind of major foot the central
focus of what the Catholic churches all about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Well, father, this also comes at a time when in
England you have young people attending Catholic services more than
Anglican services, and the Church of England, as Bob mentioned,
just elected its first female Archbishop of Canterbury. Does that
pose any issues of relations between these two churches or
is climate awareness enough to hold the ecumenical outreach together
(05:50):
and keep it from going sideways?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Well, you know the version of a humanism that we're
seeing now, which is not to talk about essential doctrines
but talk about essentially political issues which have to do
with economic arrangements to combat climate change, for instance. That's
not central to the mission of the church. So for me,
(06:14):
these kind of events are just things that you put
on a scoreboard and say, well, how often do we
show friendliness toward non Catholic Christians. And I'm all in
favor of friendliness, but the goal of the Catholic Church
is not to make friends. It's to make citizens of Heaven.
So we all want to be going toward the supernatural destiny.
We have to remind people sin is a problem.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Now.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
This new Archbishop of Canterbury, she believes an abortion. She
thinks abortion is good. This is scandalous. She claims to
represent Jesus Christ in the Church of England for her people,
and she's going to preach and has preached that abortion
is a moral thing. That's the obstacle to Christian unity,
not the fact that the king has not had a
(06:57):
share up till this point of Saint Paul's.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, Bob, there's another challenge here for the Anglican Church.
The chairman of the Global Anglican Future Conference, something called
gaffkon of the Primate Council, the head of the Primate's
Council and Archbishop Laurent Mamba or Mamdana of the Anglican
Church in Rwanda. He's declared that his organization rejects the
(07:23):
leadership of this new Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Malayley. So
gaff Coon is not leaving the communion, but they are
questioning and challenging the authority of the head of the
Anglican Church worldwide. So this really is an internal problem
in rupture that I guess Anglicanism has been dealing with
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
You know Cardinal Newman, who's going to be declared a
Doctor of the Church on November one, he used to
say that there are three basic Catholic currents in Christianity.
There's the Roman Catholic Church, they're the Orthodox, and then
they're the Anglicans. Now, you know, we have a different
view of it than than most people would have. But
(08:06):
he was saying that those three currents you can identify
with the Early Church and you can see that they're there.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
There's a certain type of.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Continuity there what they've done now and they've been skating
very close to the edge of this system in the
Anglican Church for quite a while because the Anglican Church
in England has been going woke, as many left wing
Protestant denominations have been recently, and with this move, they're
actually saying that their member churches in Gaffkan no longer
(08:36):
need to look to the Archbishop of Canterbury as a leader.
You know, it's not exactly the archchas of Canterbury is
not like a pope where there are doctrinal questions involved,
in their unity questions involved, but still to look to
the leadership of your group, your religious group, and to
say we can't accept leadership from you any longer. That's
(08:57):
the mother church, the Andrewbury Cathedral and Kent goes back
to all the way to San Agustine of Canterbury in
the seventh century. To have that kind of division arise
over what's been happening back in England, it's an utter
crisis in their communion.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, another big story this week A report posted on
October fourteenth, We have to get into this was posted
on info Vaticano dot com and it alleges a major
internal shakeup in the well known personal prelature Opus Day.
It's rumored that Opus Day statutes new statutes are awaiting
(09:35):
final approval by the Pope, and that Pope Leo will
splinter the current structure of the work founded by Saint
Jose Maria Escreva and replace it with three distinct juridical entities.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So he's going to break it into three parts.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
One group Opus Day priests themselves, another diocesan priests who
want to live this od terrorism, and a third group.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Of laymen members numerary supernumeries.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Father, would you explain canonically what might be happening here?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Pope Francis sort.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Of blew up the personal prelature that was created by
John Paul the Second when OPU State took really took
shape as a kind of floating diocese. I know this
is tricky and difficult to explain to people, but it
was sort of a floating international diocese.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Well, yeah, let me, I'm a cannon lawyer said that
I'm going to dive in here with Augusto.
Speaker 6 (10:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
So personal prelatures were started by Vatican two, and then
John Paul the Second approved a situation where you would
have the prelative opus Sta who is a priest, and
a group of priests around him who would have spiritual
care for a group of the faithful who were members
of Opi STA included, and that was a separate association
(10:49):
but was intrinsically united to OPI STA for diocesan priests
who want to be living the same spiritual life. That
arrangement involved. As Opus Stay on understood, it a hierarchical
relationship between the prelative Opus Stay and the members, so
that he exercises of pastoral jurisdiction and care, but it
was shared jurisdiction with the local bishops. I know this
(11:11):
is complicated. It's sort of like a military bishop. Military
bishop has care for the members of the army and
the navy, but so does the local.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
Bishop wherever the service members are living.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
The pope, under the influence of Canonist John Franco, Cardinal Girlanda,
has adopted a different view, which is the prelature.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
Is only the priests.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
The only jurisdiction that the predic is over is priests
ordained for Opus day. Everyone else has separate institutions. Now,
according to this rumor, the priests have an association of
the clergy, and then the lay people will have an
association of the faithful. Now they're going to certainly follow
the teachings of Saint Jose Maria. But the big question
(11:52):
is who's in charge and are there we now having
multiple authorities within the organization, and it would seem if
that's the directions going in that we have a problem
because the way it was always conceived. And I'm very
familiar with Opus Stay. At one time I was in
the priestly Society when I was a young priest because
I loved opis state. Oh I didn't know that, yeah yeah,
and then I decided not to continue, but i still
(12:13):
go on retreat and I'm very friendly with Opus Stay.
So but I've studied it canonically to learn more. Saint
Jose Maria had one idea, this is a spiritual family.
There's a father, meaning the prelate, and then everybody else
is in relation to him according to what their status is, single, married,
diaceis and clergy. They have cooperators. Even non Catholics could
(12:35):
be related. So anyway, long answer, but the question here
is will will this change the way Opus Day operates?
And maybe on a practical level, yes, but hopefully in
the spiritual levels still have the same attitude, which is
we're all part of the spiritual heritage.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
Saint Jose Maria.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, but Jose Maria Scripa's vision and correct me if
I'm wrong, Bob. His vision was that the laity would
be a sort of the tip of the spear, and
it would not be a religious institute like the Franciscans
or the Dominicans, with you know, a prelate and the
priests or brothers under him. Pope Francis made big adjustments
to the Opa State constitution back in twenty twenty two,
(13:17):
and he transferred governance to the Dicastre of Clergy and
declared that the Opa State Prelate would no longer be
a bishop.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
What is the Vatican hoping to achieve here, Bob?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Do you think, well, that's not exactly clear, I suppose
at this point, but typically you divide something to conquer it,
and they're clearly trying to break something that has existed
within Opu's Day. I've gone on OPA's Day retreats myself.
I had spiritual directors who were Opus Day priests over
the years. I've never been a member of the work,
(13:47):
but have been close to them. And the thing that
has always struck.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Me about Opus Day is it.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Does what the more progressive side of the church has
always said it wants to do, which is it's formed
lay people to be active in the church, not as
priests and deacons, et cetera, but out in the world
sanctifying the world, you know, being active, bringing an active
presence of Christ and Christianity.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Into the world.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And it's been successful at that like no other group
in modern times. I mean, there's just no competition about this.
So is it that it has that outside public influence
or is there some group or faction in the Vatican
that feels that they're, you know, they're too independent from
the Church. But whatever it is, this is not going
(14:34):
to strengthen that charism that Saint jose Maria s Creva
identified and was so successful at bringing Christ into the
world through laypeople.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, father, what do you think is driving this? I mean,
to me this, you know, culturally speaking, when you stand back,
this feels like it's all a piece of a whole,
which means we saw Pope Francis lay waste to the
Order of Malta and take away its being its own
state ifew will, and operating within its own strictures.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
He broke that up.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
We see the move to suppress the Latin mass now
to disrupt and reshape the work of Opus Stay. If
something's working and has worked for a long time, why
are we monking with it now?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
What's driving this?
Speaker 6 (15:24):
Well?
Speaker 5 (15:24):
In the case of Pope Francis, I think is part
of his hostility which is documented to more conservative or
orthodox groups in the Catholic Church. You know, he never
conducted a pastoral study of how the Jesuits were being
faithful to their charism, but more conservative religious orders got them,
including the Fraternity of Saint Peter, Institute of Christ the King,
(15:45):
so there was an effort to rein in from his
point of.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
View conservative groups.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
There's also canonically and otherwise a history of some hostility
between the Jesuit Order and Opu Stay, And if you
read some of the hits streets that have been produced,
this goes back to the Founding era, you know, back
in the thirties in Spain and onward. So there's some
score settling there. From the canon law side, I know
Cardinal Giirlanda, he taught me canon law.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
He's never liked.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
The way personal prelatures evolved in canon law, so I
think he convinced Pope Francis.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
That's one way to change it.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
The real issue though, is here, as you say, the
broader thing, this is a spiritual treasure which has produced
a lot of fruits of holiness. If there are problems,
and there are problems in every group, we address it
in order to make the group better, not to change
its organic structure, which is unfortunately what's happened here, because
if the prelature is separate from the association of the
laity and sort of like it's one group taking care
(16:44):
of another group.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
That's not how it was conceived. FA over State didn't
start with priests.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
It started with one priest and lay people, right, And
that's as Bob mentioned that this is the goal spearhead
of the Catholic Apostle through laity. The priests are more
or less chaplains and guides, the ones telling the lay
people you know you're under us, you have to do
we tell you.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Well, We'll be watching on where this goes. And it's
certainly a major story that I don't think has gotten
enough attention, but should and will. At the Vatican this week,
Aid to the Church in Need released a report detailing
the rise in Christian persecution around the world, and it
is certainly voluminous. It's no secret that Nigeria has seen
(17:29):
the death of more than fifty thousand Christians since two
thousand and nine. The Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Petro Paoline, however,
characterize the violence this week there as quote not a
religious conflict, but rather more a societal one, for example,
disputes between herders and farmers. We should also recognize that
(17:50):
many Muslims are themselves victims of the same intolerance. End quote, Bob,
your reaction, and I should put this in some context.
Three churches are destroyed in Nigeria every day. Thirty five
Christians are killed every day, according to inter Society, which
tracks this.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
What gives here? What do you think is happening?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Well, Raymond, as you know, I just wrote a book
about Gothic persecution throughout the world, and so I have
a substantial section in Nigeria's. I know there's pretty well,
and it's true there is a conflict between Muslim cow
herders who want land so that their flocks can graze,
and farmers who may be Christians. But you don't get
(18:32):
seven thousand. We think at least seven thousand Christians were
killed through August in Nigeria alone, More than throughout the
entire rest of the world.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
So is this just a land.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Dispute among a few people that ends up in seven
thousand bodies And we see, I mean, just horrifying examples
of people being chased into buildings, buildings set on fire
when the people try to escape their shot. There are
deliberate attacks on Christian sites like churches, in seminaries and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Schools to try, you know, to try to.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Pass this off as if it's just some kind of
economic clash, I just misrepresents what's actually going on there. Now,
it's true that the radical Muslims also attack more moderate Muslims.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, places in.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Nigeria where Christians and Muslims get along reasonably well, but
that's still to miss the point. If there are other
Muslims being killed by the radical Muslims, it's not over land.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Disputes, it's over a religious difference.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And the Church.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I'm sorry to say this, but I think our church
has failed to take into account the magnitude of the
Islamic problem in the world today. They keep wanting to
think that, oh, you know, we owe them an apology
because we've been prejudicial towards them. Actually, they have been
attacking Christians since the very beginning. It's built into the
Jahad that forms the basis of Islam. It it takes
(19:58):
different forms over history. Sometimes it's a little bit more subtle,
but there's this part and parcel of that kind of
drive toward a worldwide Cali faith, and the Church at
some point is going to have to recognize this. I
think power Lean at a certain point is can also
have to recognize what he did in China, which is
turning over our Catholics were loyal to Rome to the
(20:18):
tender mercies of the Communist party there. You want to
be nice, you want to have good relations with other
religions and the states, other people who organize their politics
differently than we do, but not at the expense of
truth and not at the expense of our own people.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Father put this reticence to sort of call out what's
happening globally. These are the Islam and its bloody interaction
with Christianity and other faiths. Put this in context of
the news we reported last week of the Muslim prayer
room being instituted of the Vatican Library. How does that
speak to the Vatican's attitude here and unwillingness to appreciate
(20:59):
and wreckies what's obvious to the people on the ground,
certainly in Nigeria.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I've interviewed them.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Sure, no, what you and Bob say is is right
on target. I was sad and when I saw those
remarks and it just said, this is a typical diplomat speak.
You know this is you don't You don't get up
before a microphone after church is burned down and say
this is a land dispute. Essential, as Bob puts it,
If it's a fight between herders and farmers, fight over
what fight over land? It's not a fight over land
(21:26):
to fight over Christians being evicted and being slaughter so
that they'll flee the.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
Northern part of Nigeria. We know this. What is the
context of it?
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Sad to say, it's this idea if we never utter
a critical thought or word about Islam, that the situation
for Christians will improve, and in fact, if we cave
into Islamic requirements, then somehow we're showing that we want
to cooperate and all be friends. The Islamic prayer room
(21:56):
in the Vatican, for instance, why is that there? Why
with those scholars who are doing research in the library
as for a prayer room, well, in one sense they
like to pray. The second sense, they're seeing how much
the Christians will give them and see to them. Because
in the Islamic view, and this is you know, nobody
who's serious and Muslim will deny this. Islam views its
(22:18):
mission from God to conquer the whole world, to make
it part of the faithful, and therefore symbolic steps in
conquering territory is a symbolic progress to bringing those people
into the Islamic religion. The great enemy that they perceive
is Christianity and Catholicism is at the center of it.
(22:39):
So we want to encourage people in the Islamic world
to say, don't fight against everybody as an enemy. Leave
people at peace. That's what we want. But you don't
get peace through weakness. So this is where I think
the Christian the Catholic hierarchy in Rome has to have
a realistic attitude because you say this stuff, but then
(23:02):
the next nun or priest who gets executed and kidnapped
and executed in Nigeria, Well, what is that? Was that
something to be covered up because it just contradicted what
the cardinals said.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
No, that's the reality. We have to recognize it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, and also I doubt if there are a kidnapping
and assassinating priests because of the land.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Dispute in Nigeria.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You know, this is like the old Biden administration saying
the violence was being caused by climate change. I mean,
I'm sorry. These are obstacations of the truth and it's
up to the Church at least to speak it out.
And as Bob said last week, the Muslim world perceives
this as nothing but weakness, particularly when you say, oh,
here have a side closet here at the Vatican Library.
(23:44):
It's seen as a weak move and that weakness will
be exploited. It's very sad, but let's move on here
the increasingly organized campaign. God knows, we've been covering this
for months, if not years. This organized campaign by against
the traditional Latin Mass continues here in the US. But
there are five very significant Latin Mass liturgy is about
(24:08):
to be celebrated in Rome and in the United States.
On October twenty fifth, Cardinal Raymond Burke is going to
celebrate the first traditional Latin Mass at Saint Peter's Basilica.
Since France has suppressed the ancient right back in twenty
twenty two.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
There.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This liturgy is part of a pilgrimage that's been a
tradition in Rome since Benedict the sixteenth some more on
Pontificum pilgrimage Father. Since Pope Leo has ostensibly given the
go ahead for this liturgy, should this be received as
a hopeful sign of some sort of reproach mall that
might be on the horizon.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Oh, absolutely, it is a hopeful sign, and I'm very
pleased as is happening. There's going to be a large
attendance at this pilgrimage. And let's recall that, you know
Leo has spoken about unity in the church right from
the beginning as well one of his goals. Well, when
you see the big crowd coming to Saint Peter's and
a Roman cardinal Cardinal Burke celebrating Mass, this can only
(25:07):
be viewed as a moment to say, where what have
we making for unity with this group of the faithful.
So I'm very encouraged by this.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Bob San Francisco, Archbishop Salvatory Courtleione will celebrate a traditional
Latin Mass in his archdiocese on All Saints Today. Cardinal
Gerhard Mueller is celebrating in Philadelphia, as is Cardinal Robert
Sarah again traditional Latin masses. What do you make of
these traditional liturgies and is this indicative of the voice
(25:40):
of the TLM faithful and do you think it will
be heard in Rome?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Well, I hope it is.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I mean, obviously, I think the best thing that could
happen is, however, Leo would like to massage this, is
that we either just declare traditionalist custodis, which was the
document that limited the Latin mass as Nolan Volie, or
find some subtle way to say, well, you know that
that was a reaction to a certain moment back then,
but now we can go back to what was really
(26:08):
a peaceful settlement by Benedict the sixteenth that you know,
people have a right to celebrate this, just as long
as they're not creating a problem for the bishop or
some sort of division within it, within a dioceis. I
just agree with Father a little bit about this, because
I have a feeling that there are people in Rome
who are going to see that large enthusiastic group of
TLM people coming into Saint Peter's and they're going to say, oh,
(26:31):
this is going in a direction that we don't want,
and I think that's been part of the hidden energy
behind the.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Way that they've tried to restrict the Mass.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
But then, look, this is all to the good. If
it was such a horrible thing to celebrate the old Mass,
why allow it to happen in Saint Peter's? And God
bless Cardinal Burke because he's been so strong over the
years about this and he's now going to be allowed
to say that ins.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And Saint Peter's.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You can't help but think that that's a hopeful sign,
and you have to hope that it will branch out
into a full understanding that this is not a problem.
There's actually a way to solve.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Some of the divisions within the church.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Let you know, letting people do something that's not harmful,
it's actually helpful in their own way.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Well, and help the young people.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It also allows young people who are so enthusiastic about
this right to fly their colors, to come out and
show their faith.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And one hopes that that that.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Would break through some of the what I see as
political resistance within the Vatican to this ancient right and
the people who love it.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
This isn't a horrible thing.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's a living organization of an expression of the faith
of the Catholic Church, and it should be celebrated, it
should be allowed. But we'll see what happens here in
the United States. At the Jesuit University Georgetown, Father incoming
university president Eduardo penalvar has a problem with church teaching.
(27:58):
He said, quote, I reject the church's teaching on homosexuality,
so I would favor an even easier way out by
treating committed gay relationships as morally valuable. I take inspiration
in my own marriage from the committed gay couples I
have known.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
End quote. Father.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
He also says he has a problem with the Supreme
Court overturning Roe v.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Wade.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
This is the man running the country's pre eminent institution
of Catholic higher education.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Your reaction, well, that title has been lost, I think
with this kind of maneuver, I mean, what in the
world just step back to say where are we in
the life of the church. First of all, Number one,
the board of trustees entrusted this man with the presidency,
and this was a known fact. These comments were made
about ten years ago, that he rejects church teaching. So
(28:46):
you're heading a Catholic university founded by the Society of
Jesus for what reason to provide Catholic education with students
and the presidents saying I don't think Catholic education is true.
You know, on morality is choose? Secondly, what kind of
integrity does he have as a Catholic If he can
still consider himself a Catholic, which I assume he does,
(29:08):
that he can be a pick and choose Catholic. In
other words, he can say, my Catholicism is self defined.
I define Catholicism not to include the teaching homosexual activity
is immoral. Is this the kind of Catholic that you
want to say? This is a man of integrity and
deep faith and he's followed Jesus. Now, this is a
(29:28):
man who's picking and choosing his religion and then he's
going to foster that atmosphere at his university.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Terrible Bob as father intimates there.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Penealvar is currently president of another Jesuit institution, Seattle University
in Washington, and according to the Georgetown Board, they said
President Penalvare is an exceptional leader steeped in the Catholic
and Jesuit tradition who brings a wealth of experience in
higher educational, global mindset of commitment to social justice, an
(30:01):
academic excellence, and a bold vision for Georgetown's future. Bob,
I can see he's steeped in just with tradition, but
Catholic tradition.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Your thoughts, well, you know, these Jesuit universities, by and large,
some years ago stop calling themselves Catholic institutions. They said
that they are in the Jesuit tradition. Sadly, I mean,
we all remember Jesuits who were sort of the marine
corps of the church at one point, and sadly, lately
(30:31):
the Jesuits have been something quite different. You know, it
strikes me that he's sort of the academic equivalent of
Dick Durbin. You know, he touches on all those liberal,
progressive Catholic things that people like to pursue, and he's
you know, he must be good on environmentalism and you know,
other things like that social justice. But as far as
(30:54):
being the head of a Catholic institution, it's hard to
understand why you would pick someone this, except if you
think that that is with Catholicism is these days, and
even as you were just describing him. I mean, it
took me back to that first Synod on the Family
in twenty fourteen. Father and I were both there when
they read the interim report and it was talking about
(31:15):
valuing what is good in homosexual relationships. Well, you know,
I'm sure that you know homosexual couples if they're not
fighting the way heterosexual couples sometimes do, you know, they
do nice things for one another. But is that any
reason to alter teaching about the sexual nature of what's
going on there? Obviously not. I mean, this is a
category mistake. So whatever inspiration he personally takes from people
(31:38):
that he knows to bring that into what he's going
to be advocating as the president of the oldest Catholic
institution in the United States. It goes all the way
back to the eighteenth century. Jane John Carroll, Bishop John Carroll.
It's a kind of a surrender to the culture. There's
no other way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Also, this week, Pope Leo except the resignation Bishop Edward
Scharfenberger in the Diocese of Albany, New York, and he's
appointed a former Boston auxiliary Bishop Mark O'Connell to lead
the beleaguered diocese. It filed for bankruptcy back in twenty
twenty three in the wake of sex abuse settlements. Bishop
O'Connell is a canonist, a priest who's hosted his own
(32:21):
radio program, Bob.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Perhaps he'll be an effective communicator. What do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I have to say. I don't know very much about
this auxiliary bishop. There have been so many problems in
the Albany archidises bishop who left and married a secretary
of his. As I hear from people in New York,
it was utterly ineffective in trying to deal with the
way that the state of New York and New York
City was moving away and against Catholicism. So it's going
(32:51):
to take a strong hand. I don't know if this
priest is up to it, but there's got to be
a significant change. Maybe Father, who lives in New York,
it would have more light on this than I do.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Father.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Bishop O'Connell is on record opposing the denial of communion
to pro abortion politicians, similar to Cardinal Supic's position on this.
Apparently he feels the denying communion to certain public figures
is focused too heavily on abortion At the expense of
other issues.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
Your take, Yeah, I'm to say the least disappointed with that,
because the enforcement of canon law is one of the
prime responsibilities of a bisminc. Candon nine point fifteen is
quite clear that if your obstinately persist in grave sin,
meaning promotion of abortion rights, such as Dick Durbin, then
you should be denied communion. And you know, Bishop of
(33:42):
Procky of Springfield, Illinois has acted accordingly in many others have.
Albany Diaces is in a real crisis, not only financially,
it has a reduced number of priests, it has many parishes.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
They are going to have to close some churches.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
So he's going to Bishop grecconnell is going to have
a real challenge on his hands, and you know, I
hope and pray that he will, you know, fulfill those
duties of a bishop to teach the faith and then
act prudently as regards you know, reorganization.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Jens Pope Leo continues to form his courier. Those are
the bureaucracies in the offices in the Vatican. Last week
he named Cardinal Blaze, supicch of Chicago and Cardinal Baldassare
Rena the Vicar General of Rome as the two newest
members of the Pontifical Commission for the Vatican City State. Now,
(34:36):
this is the city state currently run by a sister,
Rafaela Petrini. She is the first ever female governor, who
was of course appointed by Pope Francis in February. Father
these appointments are five year terms. What are the Pope's
choices here?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Tell us?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And how important is this commission running the Vatican City
State to the Holy See itself?
Speaker 5 (35:01):
Well, I can only comment about Cardinal Supic because that's
what I can interpret. I really don't get Cardinal Raina
that sort of goes without questioning because he's a Roman cardinal.
The Cardinal Supik is an American cardinal. There are a
lot of other American cardinals. This one gets picked. He's
seventy six years old. He's so he's beyond the retirement age.
Now cardinals in Rome are typically left to their eighty
(35:24):
So I think this is a signal that Cardinal Supic
will be the Archbishop of Chicago for the next four years.
This doesn't involve him leaving Chicago to move to Rome.
He can travel to Rome for meetings and then also
conduct things electronically. So I think this is a vote
in favor of Cardinal supiic Bi Pope Leo. And just
as were his comments to the reporter about Cardinal Supek
(35:47):
giving an award to or planning to give an award
to Senator Durbin, and he basically said, well, you have
to look at Senator's whole record before making a judgment,
which is basically saying, don't pay no attention, pay little
attention to the abortion advocates, because his whole record basically
says he deserves the award.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
That's how I interpret it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So, Bob, is this another sign of the Pope's confidence
in the leadership and character of Cardinal Seuperpach or is
it just a bureaucratic appointment and symbolic.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Well, that could be both at the same time. You know,
I hear from people in Chicago who are very much
of the opinion as I am that the Cardinal Superpach
has done a number of things that are really quite
problematic for the church in the United States. And yet
they say that he ran the archdiocese well, which may
be true. I mean they may be you know, conducting business, well,
(36:34):
maybe financially things are well, the appointments are going well.
They're moving things along briskly. But the question is what
are you're moving them along toward? And that's the question
that I just don't know what the kind of committee
that is going to be on running the Vatican, What
kind of influence is that going to have. Where are
they going to put certain resources, How are they going
(36:56):
to move the Vatican itself forward?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
And that's a much larger question.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
While we're talking about the Vatican, the Prefect for the
Dicastri Divine Worship, that's the Vatican's liturgy office. It's liturgical office.
Cardinal Arthur Roche is urging a gathering of what's called
the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to follow closely Pope
Francis's guidelines on the mass. Roche is likely one of
(37:23):
the prime movers behind the assault we've been chronicling against
the traditional at mass here in the United States. But
according to Roche, quote, the depth and breath of Francis's
liturgical vision offers us countless opportunities to pause for reflection
in order to appreciate the great gift that has been
(37:43):
handed us onto us.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
In the liturgical books end quote.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Now, this liturgical organization was established by the American bishops
in nineteen sixty nine to implement the reforms of the
Second Vatican consul Father. The Vatican just can't seem to
quit the legacy of Pope Francis. Is this the end
of Benedict's reform of the reform?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Do you think.
Speaker 6 (38:07):
You know?
Speaker 5 (38:07):
The reform of the reform was an idea that we
have to go back and look at what happened after
the Council. Because remember the new Mass was not produced
at Vatican two. It was produced by a commission after
Vatican two based on criteria that Vatican two established. So
the idea is, well, can we go back and look
at that committee work and come up with some solutions
(38:28):
to obvious areas of dispute. That's what Pope Benedict was
trying to do. Pope Francis's liturgical legacy. There's not a
lot there because basically a parfer trying to suppress the
traditional Latin Mass. He did a few things like make
you could have women washed feet at the good on
Holy Thursday. He said lp women could be installed Alkolai.
(38:52):
He did a few things like that. It is strange
that we're getting this exaltation of the herod of Pope
Francis for the liturgy with Pope Francis spent very little
time on that.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Question, Bob, What does it tell us that this Francis
model of the liturgy is being held up in this
new pontificate. I mean, everybody thought pop Leo was going
to sort of blaze his own path. It sounds like
he's just carrying the torch of the pope that preceded him.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I think a lot of that language has just overblown.
His father rightly says, there really isn't a lot of
depth and breadth and all that, you know, teaching liturgy
as far as we can tell, in Pope Francis's vision.
I think what it taps into is two things. First
of all, I think Popelia wants to hear messages reaffirming
(39:44):
what Francis did. They're not going to be any major departures.
If there are depressures, they're going to be rather subtle
and maybe take a long long time. And regrettably, I
think we all believe that there's some urgent matters that
need to be dealt with, and for me, this liturgy
language sounds almost like ideological control. You know, you need
to study these things, you know, you know deeply. So
(40:07):
on the one hand, I think it's it's expressing what
Leo himself wants. But on the other hand, there's there's
a kind of continued desire to intervene at you know,
at the at the I mean, Rocha is the one
who's told bishops you cannot even listing your bulletins when
they're going to be Latin masses. So I mean there's
really a kind of a granular desire to control what
(40:29):
is going down even down to the parish level, let
alone the diocesan level. So this is worrisome to me.
I hope it's not what it looks like, but I
fear that this is going to be, you know, further
interference and the kind of liberties that I think bishops
should have, and and the overall more relaxing of these
problems over the liturgy.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
That don't need to be there. We can we can step.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Back from that kind of restrictiveness and it would help
the unity.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Of the church.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, so long as we're talking about Pope Leo express
seeing himself, he was caught on a live microphone expounding
on his missionary experience and how that influenced his thinking
on economics, poverty, and war.
Speaker 7 (41:11):
Listen, the missionary experience, I think opened my own heart
and mind to kind of understanding that we need to
work together in the world to make some kind of
difference and many big challenges. I'm convinced that the technology,
the production capacity that we have in the world today,
(41:35):
there should be no.
Speaker 6 (41:35):
One who was hungry.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Father, your thoughts on this view of economics, I mean,
certainly we can strive to end hunger and war, but
there is human nature and original sin in the world.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Well, yes, and so hunger as a rea, as a
problem in the world has various causes and we have
to recognize that. So you have famines that are caused
by nature, you know, you have famines caused by warfare.
You have economic scarcity created by dictatorship, like in North Korea.
I mean they have a man made famine there at
(42:08):
various times in their history. Technological progress is helping. I mean,
modern farming techniques are such that in developed countries where
you know there's a market and products, they're bursting at
the seams. You know, we do very well here Canada,
United states other Ukraine before the war was supplying a
(42:29):
huge amount of grain for all.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Over the world.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
So yeah, we can. Technology is an important element. But
Bob knows this better than I because he's written on it.
The main factors hampering economic development are not the ill
will of some rich person who doesn't want to feed
the poor. Bob probably can talk about this better than I.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Go ahead, Bob, Yeah, you know, the Pope has actually
criticized the fact that Elon Musk is so wealthy. Now
this is I mean, it's a kind of an easy
way to make the case that there are some people
who are extraordinarily wealthy and others who were extraordinarily poor.
But what Musk does with that money, I mean, what
he's done in terms of producing you know, electric cars
(43:12):
and space exploration and giving people jobs and whatnot. It's
a remarkable thing. And he's also engaged in actually a
lot of philanthropic activity. You know, Father's exactly right. And
of course there's enough food to feed people. You remember
back in the day that the population controllers were saying
that there would be immense famines by nineteen eighty and
millions of people would die. Will never happen and why
(43:35):
did it never happen? Because human inventiveness and human caring
and the capacity we have to identify problems and respond
to them is what really is the wealth of nations
that we've learned that that is what happens, and we
don't have any necessary shortages of food. But all those
things that father was talking about warfare, you know, tyrants,
(43:56):
cultural differences. You know, it's you could pod pipe all
kinds of food to Africa, but how much of it
gets stolen? You know what happens. And that's the problem.
And I'm war you know, I want to go back
to this war question. That is too of course, we
all want peace. I mentioned in a previous episode that
we did that we have a just war theory in Catholicism,
(44:18):
that war per se is an ambiguous thing. I mean, obviously,
the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an injustice, and the
ongoing attack against civilian targets in Ukraine by Putin is
a war crime. There's no question about that. But what
is it What is the status.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Of the way that Ukraine is going about war?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
That self defense war is absolutely necessary because there are
evil people, and there are greedy people and ambitious people
in the world and they have to be responded to.
So war is in and of itself is an ambivalent category.
You know, the ancient Romans had a slightly ironic phrase
(45:00):
see vis pacem para bellum. If you want peace, prepare
for war. So you have to be able to protect
yourself and also help other countries that are as we
are in the United States helping Ukraine to defend itself.
So look, it's good to be against war in a
generic sense. It's good to say, yeah, we can feed people,
but it probably isn't a good idea to have simplistics,
(45:22):
give the impression of simplistic solutions for the fact that,
as you rightly say, Raymond, we're in a fallen world
with imperfect human beings.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Before we go, there's an important story I think we
should address. A priest in Spain was acquitted this week
for accusations of hate speech when he spoke out about Islam.
Father Custodio Balistaire made comments critical of Islam back in
twenty seventeen, and a Spanish prosecutor sought a three year
prison sentence against the priest, alleging that his remarks incited
(45:54):
hatred against Muslims. Father Balasteriir's defense argued that the critique
targeted radical Islam, not the wider Muslim community, and the
priest had called Jahadism quote a predatory stain, and he
went on to say that radical Jihadism and violent Islam
want to destroy Europe and the Western civilization.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Father, you've been following this story.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
How important was this acquittal to the concept of free speech,
not only in Spain but around the world.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
No, it's very important, and it's indicative of the hostility
in Spain these days, both toward Catholicism, which is the
cultural and religious heritage of the country. So it's not
just directed against this priest, it's directed against the entire
history of Spain once it became Christian. But then, secondly,
thank god, this ponce unique. They say in French, the
(46:47):
one thought that's tolerated by the government has been overthrown
by a judge. Say no, if the government doesn't agree
with Father ballast there, then the government has to make
its arguments. They shouldn't prosecute him and put him in jail.
So the judge found in his favor. That's a very
good thing.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Now, Bob, dialogue and discussion, you would think would be
welcomed in the world, but Islam and criticism in it
seems to be off the table.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
And foreboden.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
What should we take from this decision by the Spanish
court and is dialogue possible?
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Well, it would be.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
I mean, you can always be in dialogue with people
who authentically want to be in dialogue with you.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
They're going to be They're going to be.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Be a real really engaging you. But I think there
are two things that were.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Happening here in Spain.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
One is, you know, this kind of leftist socialist government
that they have goes after the Church in all sorts
of different ways. And thank God that the rule of law,
I think the proper rule of law held in this
particular case. But the second thing that's going on in
Spain and throughout Europe actually these days almost every country
except the country is like Hungary that have forbidden massive
(47:59):
Muslim immigration, is that they are intimidated by the large
Muslim populations that they've allowed into their countries. You see
this in the UK, you see it in France, you
see it in Germany. And in a sense it's understandable
because they have large numbers of radical Islamists in their
(48:20):
nations these days, So what are they going to do?
The problem is, I think that they have to become
much more vigorous in enforcing the law. I mean across
the board and enforcing the law and allowing criticism to
be made. And you don't arrest the person who makes
the criticism. You arrest the person who threatens the person
who makes the criticism. We've seen all too often lately
(48:41):
that people are being accused of being provocative because they
talk about the way that Islam is a threat to them.
Speaker 4 (48:47):
That's got to stop.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Posse grateful to you all as always, and look.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
If you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse,
subscribe to the Arroyo Gande Show on YouTube or on
the Arroyo Gandei podcast wherever you.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray.
Thank you gens.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Until the Posse rides again, stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I'm raiming Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
The Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse is produced in partnership with
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app or wherever you get your podcasts,
The King of England meets with Pope Leo in the Vatican.
What's really happening there and what might be possible? And
the Cardinal Secretary of State at the Vatican downplays anti
Christian violence in Nigeria. We'll tell you why the Prayerful Posse.
We'll explore it all next. Welcome to this important Prayerful Posse.
(00:27):
Be sure to subscribe to the show. It's a wonderful
way to support our work totally free, and visit Raymondarroyo
dot com for more.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Let's convene the Prayerful Posse.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Canon Lawyer Priest of the Archdiocese of New York, Father
Gerald Murray is here and editor in chief of the
Catholic Thing dot org. Robert Royal joins us, and I'm
Raymond to Royo. Thank you gents for being here. King
Charles is visiting the Vatican to meet Pope Leo and
they're sharing what's being built as an historic moment of
joint prayer at the Sistine Chapel.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Now, just for.
Speaker 1 (00:59):
The record, this is the first time a Roman pontiff
and an English monarch had prayed together since the Reformation.
This ecumenical gesture focuses on the themes of Christian unity
and care for creation. Bob, how significant is this moment
for the Church of Rome and the Church of England
(01:19):
or is it?
Speaker 3 (01:21):
Yeah, that's a good question, because here we have the
heir to Henry the Eighth, who split off the British
Church from the universal Catholic Church and is himself even
somewhat retreating from being the chief of the Anglican communion
because he's when he was a crown king, he talked
(01:43):
about how he wanted to be the king of faiths
in a simply the Anglican faith. So it's, you know,
it's part and parcel of all that ecumenical activity that's
been going on for decades, partly in the Catholic Church.
Speaker 4 (01:56):
Partly elsewhere.
Speaker 3 (01:58):
I wish this were really a kind of a step
forward in authentic acumunism, which we mean coming together, you know,
in common acceptance of the truths of Christianity in their
historic meaning. But I have a feeling that this is
just a kind of a side encounter at a time
(02:20):
when the Church itself is not very strong in England,
and when the Church of England itself is in at
crisis and not least because of what it's doing itself.
I mean, it's kind a female Archbishop of Canterbury about
to be about to be installed in March, and so
there's there's a wide gap here. It's, you know, it's
nice to be nice to one another, but beyond that,
(02:41):
I don't think it's as much.
Speaker 4 (02:42):
It might even be a kind of.
Speaker 2 (02:44):
A net negative father.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Also part of this meeting is a visit to the
Basilica of Saint Paul outside the Walls, that's where Saint
Paul was martyred. There, Pope Leo has bestowed upon King
Charles the title of Royal Comforter of Saint Paul, and
he's given him a special chair there which will be
(03:06):
used by the king and one presumes his successors when
they visit the basilica.
Speaker 2 (03:12):
What is the message being sent here.
Speaker 5 (03:15):
Well, this is an updating of the custom that exists
in many churches, which is that the Catholic royalty would
have a throne or a seat in which they would
be seated place a special recognition. So this is not
a Catholic royal, but nonetheless it's a Christian royal. And
as Bob says, this is an ecumenical sign.
Speaker 6 (03:39):
It really isn't.
Speaker 5 (03:39):
The essence of a humanism, essence of acumunim is this
unity in Christ, in the one True Church. That's the goal,
according to the Second Vatican Council. So if this contributes
to that, it's fine. But it's a nice gesture, but
it doesn't I think, really advance the cause of Christian
unity all that much.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
Yeah, I mean, Bob, you mentioned it, Henry the Eighth.
I mean it was a heretical king. I mean, he
broke off from the church and Charles has continued in
that line. So it is odd to be bestowing a
seat like this a place of honor in a Catholic
cathedral of such a steam in Rome.
Speaker 3 (04:19):
Yeah, it's an oddity. I don't know why exactly they've
decided to do this. There must have been some back
channel conversations about its.
Speaker 4 (04:28):
Certainly a way.
Speaker 3 (04:28):
To make nice with the UK, but the UK is
in very serious trouble these days. I mean, we see
all the time the kind of random violence, knife knife
things that occur in London and elsewhere. You see the
Muslim disorders that are taking place. There's an absolutely scandalous
(04:50):
case that there's going to be an Israeli soccer team
playing in Birmingham against a British team and Israeli fans
are being barred from going to the stadium. So England
is in is in a great crisis at this point
and probably looking for friends. I have to assume they
like the fact that the Vatican was able to work
out this deal with them. But what it means for
the church, I don't know. It's nice to have friends,
(05:13):
but Christianity is not just about making friends, his father
rightly says, it's the unity in the one true Church. Yeah,
it should be the kind of major foot the central
focus of what the Catholic churches all about.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Well, father, this also comes at a time when in
England you have young people attending Catholic services more than
Anglican services, and the Church of England, as Bob mentioned,
just elected its first female Archbishop of Canterbury. Does that
pose any issues of relations between these two churches or
is climate awareness enough to hold the ecumenical outreach together
(05:50):
and keep it from going sideways?
Speaker 5 (05:53):
Well, you know the version of a humanism that we're
seeing now, which is not to talk about essential doctrines
but talk about essentially political issues which have to do
with economic arrangements to combat climate change, for instance. That's
not central to the mission of the church. So for me,
(06:14):
these kind of events are just things that you put
on a scoreboard and say, well, how often do we
show friendliness toward non Catholic Christians. And I'm all in
favor of friendliness, but the goal of the Catholic Church
is not to make friends. It's to make citizens of Heaven.
So we all want to be going toward the supernatural destiny.
We have to remind people sin is a problem.
Speaker 4 (06:36):
Now.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
This new Archbishop of Canterbury, she believes an abortion. She
thinks abortion is good. This is scandalous. She claims to
represent Jesus Christ in the Church of England for her people,
and she's going to preach and has preached that abortion
is a moral thing. That's the obstacle to Christian unity,
not the fact that the king has not had a
(06:57):
share up till this point of Saint Paul's.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Yeah, Bob, there's another challenge here for the Anglican Church.
The chairman of the Global Anglican Future Conference, something called
gaffkon of the Primate Council, the head of the Primate's
Council and Archbishop Laurent Mamba or Mamdana of the Anglican
Church in Rwanda. He's declared that his organization rejects the
(07:23):
leadership of this new Archbishop of Canterbury, Sarah Malayley. So
gaff Coon is not leaving the communion, but they are
questioning and challenging the authority of the head of the
Anglican Church worldwide. So this really is an internal problem
in rupture that I guess Anglicanism has been dealing with
for a long time.
Speaker 4 (07:46):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (07:46):
You know Cardinal Newman, who's going to be declared a
Doctor of the Church on November one, he used to
say that there are three basic Catholic currents in Christianity.
There's the Roman Catholic Church, they're the Orthodox, and then
they're the Anglicans. Now, you know, we have a different
view of it than than most people would have. But
(08:06):
he was saying that those three currents you can identify
with the Early Church and you can see that they're there.
Speaker 4 (08:12):
There's a certain type of.
Speaker 3 (08:13):
Continuity there what they've done now and they've been skating
very close to the edge of this system in the
Anglican Church for quite a while because the Anglican Church
in England has been going woke, as many left wing
Protestant denominations have been recently, and with this move, they're
actually saying that their member churches in Gaffkan no longer
(08:36):
need to look to the Archbishop of Canterbury as a leader.
You know, it's not exactly the archchas of Canterbury is
not like a pope where there are doctrinal questions involved,
in their unity questions involved, but still to look to
the leadership of your group, your religious group, and to
say we can't accept leadership from you any longer. That's
(08:57):
the mother church, the Andrewbury Cathedral and Kent goes back
to all the way to San Agustine of Canterbury in
the seventh century. To have that kind of division arise
over what's been happening back in England, it's an utter
crisis in their communion.
Speaker 1 (09:14):
Yeah, another big story this week A report posted on
October fourteenth, We have to get into this was posted
on info Vaticano dot com and it alleges a major
internal shakeup in the well known personal prelature Opus Day.
It's rumored that Opus Day statutes new statutes are awaiting
(09:35):
final approval by the Pope, and that Pope Leo will
splinter the current structure of the work founded by Saint
Jose Maria Escreva and replace it with three distinct juridical entities.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So he's going to break it into three parts.
Speaker 1 (09:51):
One group Opus Day priests themselves, another diocesan priests who
want to live this od terrorism, and a third group.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Of laymen members numerary supernumeries.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Father, would you explain canonically what might be happening here?
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Pope Francis sort.
Speaker 1 (10:07):
Of blew up the personal prelature that was created by
John Paul the Second when OPU State took really took
shape as a kind of floating diocese. I know this
is tricky and difficult to explain to people, but it
was sort of a floating international diocese.
Speaker 5 (10:23):
Well, yeah, let me, I'm a cannon lawyer said that
I'm going to dive in here with Augusto.
Speaker 6 (10:27):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (10:27):
So personal prelatures were started by Vatican two, and then
John Paul the Second approved a situation where you would
have the prelative opus Sta who is a priest, and
a group of priests around him who would have spiritual
care for a group of the faithful who were members
of Opi STA included, and that was a separate association
(10:49):
but was intrinsically united to OPI STA for diocesan priests
who want to be living the same spiritual life. That
arrangement involved. As Opus Stay on understood, it a hierarchical
relationship between the prelative Opus Stay and the members, so
that he exercises of pastoral jurisdiction and care, but it
was shared jurisdiction with the local bishops. I know this
(11:11):
is complicated. It's sort of like a military bishop. Military
bishop has care for the members of the army and
the navy, but so does the local.
Speaker 6 (11:18):
Bishop wherever the service members are living.
Speaker 5 (11:21):
The pope, under the influence of Canonist John Franco, Cardinal Girlanda,
has adopted a different view, which is the prelature.
Speaker 6 (11:30):
Is only the priests.
Speaker 5 (11:32):
The only jurisdiction that the predic is over is priests
ordained for Opus day. Everyone else has separate institutions. Now,
according to this rumor, the priests have an association of
the clergy, and then the lay people will have an
association of the faithful. Now they're going to certainly follow
the teachings of Saint Jose Maria. But the big question
(11:52):
is who's in charge and are there we now having
multiple authorities within the organization, and it would seem if
that's the directions going in that we have a problem
because the way it was always conceived. And I'm very
familiar with Opus Stay. At one time I was in
the priestly Society when I was a young priest because
I loved opis state. Oh I didn't know that, yeah yeah,
and then I decided not to continue, but i still
(12:13):
go on retreat and I'm very friendly with Opus Stay.
So but I've studied it canonically to learn more. Saint
Jose Maria had one idea, this is a spiritual family.
There's a father, meaning the prelate, and then everybody else
is in relation to him according to what their status is, single, married,
diaceis and clergy. They have cooperators. Even non Catholics could
(12:35):
be related. So anyway, long answer, but the question here
is will will this change the way Opus Day operates?
And maybe on a practical level, yes, but hopefully in
the spiritual levels still have the same attitude, which is
we're all part of the spiritual heritage.
Speaker 6 (12:53):
Saint Jose Maria.
Speaker 1 (12:54):
Yeah, but Jose Maria Scripa's vision and correct me if
I'm wrong, Bob. His vision was that the laity would
be a sort of the tip of the spear, and
it would not be a religious institute like the Franciscans
or the Dominicans, with you know, a prelate and the
priests or brothers under him. Pope Francis made big adjustments
to the Opa State constitution back in twenty twenty two,
(13:17):
and he transferred governance to the Dicastre of Clergy and
declared that the Opa State Prelate would no longer be
a bishop.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
What is the Vatican hoping to achieve here, Bob?
Speaker 3 (13:27):
Do you think, well, that's not exactly clear, I suppose
at this point, but typically you divide something to conquer it,
and they're clearly trying to break something that has existed
within Opu's Day. I've gone on OPA's Day retreats myself.
I had spiritual directors who were Opus Day priests over
the years. I've never been a member of the work,
(13:47):
but have been close to them. And the thing that
has always struck.
Speaker 4 (13:51):
Me about Opus Day is it.
Speaker 3 (13:53):
Does what the more progressive side of the church has
always said it wants to do, which is it's formed
lay people to be active in the church, not as
priests and deacons, et cetera, but out in the world
sanctifying the world, you know, being active, bringing an active
presence of Christ and Christianity.
Speaker 4 (14:11):
Into the world.
Speaker 3 (14:12):
And it's been successful at that like no other group
in modern times. I mean, there's just no competition about this.
So is it that it has that outside public influence
or is there some group or faction in the Vatican
that feels that they're, you know, they're too independent from
the Church. But whatever it is, this is not going
(14:34):
to strengthen that charism that Saint jose Maria s Creva
identified and was so successful at bringing Christ into the
world through laypeople.
Speaker 1 (14:45):
Yeah, father, what do you think is driving this? I mean,
to me this, you know, culturally speaking, when you stand back,
this feels like it's all a piece of a whole,
which means we saw Pope Francis lay waste to the
Order of Malta and take away its being its own
state ifew will, and operating within its own strictures.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
He broke that up.
Speaker 1 (15:09):
We see the move to suppress the Latin mass now
to disrupt and reshape the work of Opus Stay. If
something's working and has worked for a long time, why
are we monking with it now?
Speaker 2 (15:21):
What's driving this?
Speaker 6 (15:24):
Well?
Speaker 5 (15:24):
In the case of Pope Francis, I think is part
of his hostility which is documented to more conservative or
orthodox groups in the Catholic Church. You know, he never
conducted a pastoral study of how the Jesuits were being
faithful to their charism, but more conservative religious orders got them,
including the Fraternity of Saint Peter, Institute of Christ the King,
(15:45):
so there was an effort to rein in from his
point of.
Speaker 6 (15:49):
View conservative groups.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
There's also canonically and otherwise a history of some hostility
between the Jesuit Order and Opu Stay, And if you
read some of the hits streets that have been produced,
this goes back to the Founding era, you know, back
in the thirties in Spain and onward. So there's some
score settling there. From the canon law side, I know
Cardinal Giirlanda, he taught me canon law.
Speaker 6 (16:13):
He's never liked.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
The way personal prelatures evolved in canon law, so I
think he convinced Pope Francis.
Speaker 6 (16:19):
That's one way to change it.
Speaker 5 (16:21):
The real issue though, is here, as you say, the
broader thing, this is a spiritual treasure which has produced
a lot of fruits of holiness. If there are problems,
and there are problems in every group, we address it
in order to make the group better, not to change
its organic structure, which is unfortunately what's happened here, because
if the prelature is separate from the association of the
laity and sort of like it's one group taking care
(16:44):
of another group.
Speaker 6 (16:45):
That's not how it was conceived. FA over State didn't
start with priests.
Speaker 5 (16:48):
It started with one priest and lay people, right, And
that's as Bob mentioned that this is the goal spearhead
of the Catholic Apostle through laity. The priests are more
or less chaplains and guides, the ones telling the lay
people you know you're under us, you have to do
we tell you.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Well, We'll be watching on where this goes. And it's
certainly a major story that I don't think has gotten
enough attention, but should and will. At the Vatican this week,
Aid to the Church in Need released a report detailing
the rise in Christian persecution around the world, and it
is certainly voluminous. It's no secret that Nigeria has seen
(17:29):
the death of more than fifty thousand Christians since two
thousand and nine. The Vatican Secretary of State, Cardinal Petro Paoline, however,
characterize the violence this week there as quote not a
religious conflict, but rather more a societal one, for example,
disputes between herders and farmers. We should also recognize that
(17:50):
many Muslims are themselves victims of the same intolerance. End quote, Bob,
your reaction, and I should put this in some context.
Three churches are destroyed in Nigeria every day. Thirty five
Christians are killed every day, according to inter Society, which
tracks this.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
What gives here? What do you think is happening?
Speaker 3 (18:11):
Well, Raymond, as you know, I just wrote a book
about Gothic persecution throughout the world, and so I have
a substantial section in Nigeria's. I know there's pretty well,
and it's true there is a conflict between Muslim cow
herders who want land so that their flocks can graze,
and farmers who may be Christians. But you don't get
(18:32):
seven thousand. We think at least seven thousand Christians were
killed through August in Nigeria alone, More than throughout the
entire rest of the world.
Speaker 4 (18:41):
So is this just a land.
Speaker 3 (18:42):
Dispute among a few people that ends up in seven
thousand bodies And we see, I mean, just horrifying examples
of people being chased into buildings, buildings set on fire
when the people try to escape their shot. There are
deliberate attacks on Christian sites like churches, in seminaries and whatnot.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
Schools to try, you know, to try to.
Speaker 3 (19:04):
Pass this off as if it's just some kind of
economic clash, I just misrepresents what's actually going on there. Now,
it's true that the radical Muslims also attack more moderate Muslims.
Speaker 2 (19:18):
Yes, places in.
Speaker 3 (19:20):
Nigeria where Christians and Muslims get along reasonably well, but
that's still to miss the point. If there are other
Muslims being killed by the radical Muslims, it's not over land.
Speaker 4 (19:31):
Disputes, it's over a religious difference.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
And the Church.
Speaker 3 (19:35):
I'm sorry to say this, but I think our church
has failed to take into account the magnitude of the
Islamic problem in the world today. They keep wanting to
think that, oh, you know, we owe them an apology
because we've been prejudicial towards them. Actually, they have been
attacking Christians since the very beginning. It's built into the
Jahad that forms the basis of Islam. It it takes
(19:58):
different forms over history. Sometimes it's a little bit more subtle,
but there's this part and parcel of that kind of
drive toward a worldwide Cali faith, and the Church at
some point is going to have to recognize this. I
think power Lean at a certain point is can also
have to recognize what he did in China, which is
turning over our Catholics were loyal to Rome to the
(20:18):
tender mercies of the Communist party there. You want to
be nice, you want to have good relations with other
religions and the states, other people who organize their politics
differently than we do, but not at the expense of
truth and not at the expense of our own people.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
Father put this reticence to sort of call out what's
happening globally. These are the Islam and its bloody interaction
with Christianity and other faiths. Put this in context of
the news we reported last week of the Muslim prayer
room being instituted of the Vatican Library. How does that
speak to the Vatican's attitude here and unwillingness to appreciate
(20:59):
and wreckies what's obvious to the people on the ground,
certainly in Nigeria.
Speaker 2 (21:03):
I've interviewed them.
Speaker 5 (21:05):
Sure, no, what you and Bob say is is right
on target. I was sad and when I saw those
remarks and it just said, this is a typical diplomat speak.
You know this is you don't You don't get up
before a microphone after church is burned down and say
this is a land dispute. Essential, as Bob puts it,
If it's a fight between herders and farmers, fight over
what fight over land? It's not a fight over land
(21:26):
to fight over Christians being evicted and being slaughter so
that they'll flee the.
Speaker 6 (21:31):
Northern part of Nigeria. We know this. What is the
context of it?
Speaker 5 (21:35):
Sad to say, it's this idea if we never utter
a critical thought or word about Islam, that the situation
for Christians will improve, and in fact, if we cave
into Islamic requirements, then somehow we're showing that we want
to cooperate and all be friends. The Islamic prayer room
(21:56):
in the Vatican, for instance, why is that there? Why
with those scholars who are doing research in the library
as for a prayer room, well, in one sense they
like to pray. The second sense, they're seeing how much
the Christians will give them and see to them. Because
in the Islamic view, and this is you know, nobody
who's serious and Muslim will deny this. Islam views its
(22:18):
mission from God to conquer the whole world, to make
it part of the faithful, and therefore symbolic steps in
conquering territory is a symbolic progress to bringing those people
into the Islamic religion. The great enemy that they perceive
is Christianity and Catholicism is at the center of it.
(22:39):
So we want to encourage people in the Islamic world
to say, don't fight against everybody as an enemy. Leave
people at peace. That's what we want. But you don't
get peace through weakness. So this is where I think
the Christian the Catholic hierarchy in Rome has to have
a realistic attitude because you say this stuff, but then
(23:02):
the next nun or priest who gets executed and kidnapped
and executed in Nigeria, Well, what is that? Was that
something to be covered up because it just contradicted what
the cardinals said.
Speaker 6 (23:14):
No, that's the reality. We have to recognize it.
Speaker 1 (23:16):
Yeah, and also I doubt if there are a kidnapping
and assassinating priests because of the land.
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Dispute in Nigeria.
Speaker 1 (23:23):
You know, this is like the old Biden administration saying
the violence was being caused by climate change. I mean,
I'm sorry. These are obstacations of the truth and it's
up to the Church at least to speak it out.
And as Bob said last week, the Muslim world perceives
this as nothing but weakness, particularly when you say, oh,
here have a side closet here at the Vatican Library.
(23:44):
It's seen as a weak move and that weakness will
be exploited. It's very sad, but let's move on here
the increasingly organized campaign. God knows, we've been covering this
for months, if not years. This organized campaign by against
the traditional Latin Mass continues here in the US. But
there are five very significant Latin Mass liturgy is about
(24:08):
to be celebrated in Rome and in the United States.
On October twenty fifth, Cardinal Raymond Burke is going to
celebrate the first traditional Latin Mass at Saint Peter's Basilica.
Since France has suppressed the ancient right back in twenty
twenty two.
Speaker 6 (24:22):
There.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
This liturgy is part of a pilgrimage that's been a
tradition in Rome since Benedict the sixteenth some more on
Pontificum pilgrimage Father. Since Pope Leo has ostensibly given the
go ahead for this liturgy, should this be received as
a hopeful sign of some sort of reproach mall that
might be on the horizon.
Speaker 5 (24:45):
Oh, absolutely, it is a hopeful sign, and I'm very
pleased as is happening. There's going to be a large
attendance at this pilgrimage. And let's recall that, you know
Leo has spoken about unity in the church right from
the beginning as well one of his goals. Well, when
you see the big crowd coming to Saint Peter's and
a Roman cardinal Cardinal Burke celebrating Mass, this can only
(25:07):
be viewed as a moment to say, where what have
we making for unity with this group of the faithful.
So I'm very encouraged by this.
Speaker 1 (25:16):
Bob San Francisco, Archbishop Salvatory Courtleione will celebrate a traditional
Latin Mass in his archdiocese on All Saints Today. Cardinal
Gerhard Mueller is celebrating in Philadelphia, as is Cardinal Robert
Sarah again traditional Latin masses. What do you make of
these traditional liturgies and is this indicative of the voice
(25:40):
of the TLM faithful and do you think it will
be heard in Rome?
Speaker 4 (25:45):
Well, I hope it is.
Speaker 3 (25:46):
I mean, obviously, I think the best thing that could
happen is, however, Leo would like to massage this, is
that we either just declare traditionalist custodis, which was the
document that limited the Latin mass as Nolan Volie, or
find some subtle way to say, well, you know that
that was a reaction to a certain moment back then,
but now we can go back to what was really
(26:08):
a peaceful settlement by Benedict the sixteenth that you know,
people have a right to celebrate this, just as long
as they're not creating a problem for the bishop or
some sort of division within it, within a dioceis. I
just agree with Father a little bit about this, because
I have a feeling that there are people in Rome
who are going to see that large enthusiastic group of
TLM people coming into Saint Peter's and they're going to say, oh,
(26:31):
this is going in a direction that we don't want,
and I think that's been part of the hidden energy
behind the.
Speaker 4 (26:38):
Way that they've tried to restrict the Mass.
Speaker 3 (26:41):
But then, look, this is all to the good. If
it was such a horrible thing to celebrate the old Mass,
why allow it to happen in Saint Peter's? And God
bless Cardinal Burke because he's been so strong over the
years about this and he's now going to be allowed
to say that ins.
Speaker 4 (26:54):
And Saint Peter's.
Speaker 3 (26:56):
You can't help but think that that's a hopeful sign,
and you have to hope that it will branch out
into a full understanding that this is not a problem.
There's actually a way to solve.
Speaker 4 (27:06):
Some of the divisions within the church.
Speaker 3 (27:09):
Let you know, letting people do something that's not harmful,
it's actually helpful in their own way.
Speaker 2 (27:15):
Well, and help the young people.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
It also allows young people who are so enthusiastic about
this right to fly their colors, to come out and
show their faith.
Speaker 2 (27:24):
And one hopes that that that.
Speaker 1 (27:26):
Would break through some of the what I see as
political resistance within the Vatican to this ancient right and
the people who love it.
Speaker 2 (27:35):
This isn't a horrible thing.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's a living organization of an expression of the faith
of the Catholic Church, and it should be celebrated, it
should be allowed. But we'll see what happens here in
the United States. At the Jesuit University Georgetown, Father incoming
university president Eduardo penalvar has a problem with church teaching.
(27:58):
He said, quote, I reject the church's teaching on homosexuality,
so I would favor an even easier way out by
treating committed gay relationships as morally valuable. I take inspiration
in my own marriage from the committed gay couples I
have known.
Speaker 2 (28:13):
End quote. Father.
Speaker 1 (28:15):
He also says he has a problem with the Supreme
Court overturning Roe v.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Wade.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
This is the man running the country's pre eminent institution
of Catholic higher education.
Speaker 5 (28:24):
Your reaction, well, that title has been lost, I think
with this kind of maneuver, I mean, what in the
world just step back to say where are we in
the life of the church. First of all, Number one,
the board of trustees entrusted this man with the presidency,
and this was a known fact. These comments were made
about ten years ago, that he rejects church teaching. So
(28:46):
you're heading a Catholic university founded by the Society of
Jesus for what reason to provide Catholic education with students
and the presidents saying I don't think Catholic education is true.
You know, on morality is choose? Secondly, what kind of
integrity does he have as a Catholic If he can
still consider himself a Catholic, which I assume he does,
(29:08):
that he can be a pick and choose Catholic. In
other words, he can say, my Catholicism is self defined.
I define Catholicism not to include the teaching homosexual activity
is immoral. Is this the kind of Catholic that you
want to say? This is a man of integrity and
deep faith and he's followed Jesus. Now, this is a
(29:28):
man who's picking and choosing his religion and then he's
going to foster that atmosphere at his university.
Speaker 2 (29:34):
Terrible Bob as father intimates there.
Speaker 1 (29:38):
Penealvar is currently president of another Jesuit institution, Seattle University
in Washington, and according to the Georgetown Board, they said
President Penalvare is an exceptional leader steeped in the Catholic
and Jesuit tradition who brings a wealth of experience in
higher educational, global mindset of commitment to social justice, an
(30:01):
academic excellence, and a bold vision for Georgetown's future. Bob,
I can see he's steeped in just with tradition, but
Catholic tradition.
Speaker 3 (30:10):
Your thoughts, well, you know, these Jesuit universities, by and large,
some years ago stop calling themselves Catholic institutions. They said
that they are in the Jesuit tradition. Sadly, I mean,
we all remember Jesuits who were sort of the marine
corps of the church at one point, and sadly, lately
(30:31):
the Jesuits have been something quite different. You know, it
strikes me that he's sort of the academic equivalent of
Dick Durbin. You know, he touches on all those liberal,
progressive Catholic things that people like to pursue, and he's
you know, he must be good on environmentalism and you know,
other things like that social justice. But as far as
(30:54):
being the head of a Catholic institution, it's hard to
understand why you would pick someone this, except if you
think that that is with Catholicism is these days, and
even as you were just describing him. I mean, it
took me back to that first Synod on the Family
in twenty fourteen. Father and I were both there when
they read the interim report and it was talking about
(31:15):
valuing what is good in homosexual relationships. Well, you know,
I'm sure that you know homosexual couples if they're not
fighting the way heterosexual couples sometimes do, you know, they
do nice things for one another. But is that any
reason to alter teaching about the sexual nature of what's
going on there? Obviously not. I mean, this is a
category mistake. So whatever inspiration he personally takes from people
(31:38):
that he knows to bring that into what he's going
to be advocating as the president of the oldest Catholic
institution in the United States. It goes all the way
back to the eighteenth century. Jane John Carroll, Bishop John Carroll.
It's a kind of a surrender to the culture. There's
no other way to describe it.
Speaker 1 (31:58):
Also, this week, Pope Leo except the resignation Bishop Edward
Scharfenberger in the Diocese of Albany, New York, and he's
appointed a former Boston auxiliary Bishop Mark O'Connell to lead
the beleaguered diocese. It filed for bankruptcy back in twenty
twenty three in the wake of sex abuse settlements. Bishop
O'Connell is a canonist, a priest who's hosted his own
(32:21):
radio program, Bob.
Speaker 2 (32:24):
Perhaps he'll be an effective communicator. What do you think?
Speaker 3 (32:28):
I have to say. I don't know very much about
this auxiliary bishop. There have been so many problems in
the Albany archidises bishop who left and married a secretary
of his. As I hear from people in New York,
it was utterly ineffective in trying to deal with the
way that the state of New York and New York
City was moving away and against Catholicism. So it's going
(32:51):
to take a strong hand. I don't know if this
priest is up to it, but there's got to be
a significant change. Maybe Father, who lives in New York,
it would have more light on this than I do.
Speaker 2 (33:03):
Father.
Speaker 1 (33:03):
Bishop O'Connell is on record opposing the denial of communion
to pro abortion politicians, similar to Cardinal Supic's position on this.
Apparently he feels the denying communion to certain public figures
is focused too heavily on abortion At the expense of
other issues.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
Your take, Yeah, I'm to say the least disappointed with that,
because the enforcement of canon law is one of the
prime responsibilities of a bisminc. Candon nine point fifteen is
quite clear that if your obstinately persist in grave sin,
meaning promotion of abortion rights, such as Dick Durbin, then
you should be denied communion. And you know, Bishop of
(33:42):
Procky of Springfield, Illinois has acted accordingly in many others have.
Albany Diaces is in a real crisis, not only financially,
it has a reduced number of priests, it has many parishes.
Speaker 6 (33:56):
They are going to have to close some churches.
Speaker 5 (33:58):
So he's going to Bishop grecconnell is going to have
a real challenge on his hands, and you know, I
hope and pray that he will, you know, fulfill those
duties of a bishop to teach the faith and then
act prudently as regards you know, reorganization.
Speaker 1 (34:14):
Jens Pope Leo continues to form his courier. Those are
the bureaucracies in the offices in the Vatican. Last week
he named Cardinal Blaze, supicch of Chicago and Cardinal Baldassare
Rena the Vicar General of Rome as the two newest
members of the Pontifical Commission for the Vatican City State. Now,
(34:36):
this is the city state currently run by a sister,
Rafaela Petrini. She is the first ever female governor, who
was of course appointed by Pope Francis in February. Father
these appointments are five year terms. What are the Pope's
choices here?
Speaker 2 (34:53):
Tell us?
Speaker 1 (34:54):
And how important is this commission running the Vatican City
State to the Holy See itself?
Speaker 5 (35:01):
Well, I can only comment about Cardinal Supic because that's
what I can interpret. I really don't get Cardinal Raina
that sort of goes without questioning because he's a Roman cardinal.
The Cardinal Supik is an American cardinal. There are a
lot of other American cardinals. This one gets picked. He's
seventy six years old. He's so he's beyond the retirement age.
Now cardinals in Rome are typically left to their eighty
(35:24):
So I think this is a signal that Cardinal Supic
will be the Archbishop of Chicago for the next four years.
This doesn't involve him leaving Chicago to move to Rome.
He can travel to Rome for meetings and then also
conduct things electronically. So I think this is a vote
in favor of Cardinal supiic Bi Pope Leo. And just
as were his comments to the reporter about Cardinal Supek
(35:47):
giving an award to or planning to give an award
to Senator Durbin, and he basically said, well, you have
to look at Senator's whole record before making a judgment,
which is basically saying, don't pay no attention, pay little
attention to the abortion advocates, because his whole record basically
says he deserves the award.
Speaker 6 (36:03):
That's how I interpret it.
Speaker 1 (36:04):
So, Bob, is this another sign of the Pope's confidence
in the leadership and character of Cardinal Seuperpach or is
it just a bureaucratic appointment and symbolic.
Speaker 3 (36:13):
Well, that could be both at the same time. You know,
I hear from people in Chicago who are very much
of the opinion as I am that the Cardinal Superpach
has done a number of things that are really quite
problematic for the church in the United States. And yet
they say that he ran the archdiocese well, which may
be true. I mean they may be you know, conducting business, well,
(36:34):
maybe financially things are well, the appointments are going well.
They're moving things along briskly. But the question is what
are you're moving them along toward? And that's the question
that I just don't know what the kind of committee
that is going to be on running the Vatican, What
kind of influence is that going to have. Where are
they going to put certain resources, How are they going
(36:56):
to move the Vatican itself forward?
Speaker 4 (36:58):
And that's a much larger question.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
While we're talking about the Vatican, the Prefect for the
Dicastri Divine Worship, that's the Vatican's liturgy office. It's liturgical office.
Cardinal Arthur Roche is urging a gathering of what's called
the Federation of Diocesan Liturgical Commissions to follow closely Pope
Francis's guidelines on the mass. Roche is likely one of
(37:23):
the prime movers behind the assault we've been chronicling against
the traditional at mass here in the United States. But
according to Roche, quote, the depth and breath of Francis's
liturgical vision offers us countless opportunities to pause for reflection
in order to appreciate the great gift that has been
(37:43):
handed us onto us.
Speaker 2 (37:45):
In the liturgical books end quote.
Speaker 1 (37:47):
Now, this liturgical organization was established by the American bishops
in nineteen sixty nine to implement the reforms of the
Second Vatican consul Father. The Vatican just can't seem to
quit the legacy of Pope Francis. Is this the end
of Benedict's reform of the reform?
Speaker 2 (38:04):
Do you think.
Speaker 6 (38:07):
You know?
Speaker 5 (38:07):
The reform of the reform was an idea that we
have to go back and look at what happened after
the Council. Because remember the new Mass was not produced
at Vatican two. It was produced by a commission after
Vatican two based on criteria that Vatican two established. So
the idea is, well, can we go back and look
at that committee work and come up with some solutions
(38:28):
to obvious areas of dispute. That's what Pope Benedict was
trying to do. Pope Francis's liturgical legacy. There's not a
lot there because basically a parfer trying to suppress the
traditional Latin Mass. He did a few things like make
you could have women washed feet at the good on
Holy Thursday. He said lp women could be installed Alkolai.
(38:52):
He did a few things like that. It is strange
that we're getting this exaltation of the herod of Pope
Francis for the liturgy with Pope Francis spent very little
time on that.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
Question, Bob, What does it tell us that this Francis
model of the liturgy is being held up in this
new pontificate. I mean, everybody thought pop Leo was going
to sort of blaze his own path. It sounds like
he's just carrying the torch of the pope that preceded him.
Speaker 4 (39:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (39:24):
I think a lot of that language has just overblown.
His father rightly says, there really isn't a lot of
depth and breadth and all that, you know, teaching liturgy
as far as we can tell, in Pope Francis's vision.
I think what it taps into is two things. First
of all, I think Popelia wants to hear messages reaffirming
(39:44):
what Francis did. They're not going to be any major departures.
If there are depressures, they're going to be rather subtle
and maybe take a long long time. And regrettably, I
think we all believe that there's some urgent matters that
need to be dealt with, and for me, this liturgy
language sounds almost like ideological control. You know, you need
to study these things, you know, you know deeply. So
(40:07):
on the one hand, I think it's it's expressing what
Leo himself wants. But on the other hand, there's there's
a kind of continued desire to intervene at you know,
at the at the I mean, Rocha is the one
who's told bishops you cannot even listing your bulletins when
they're going to be Latin masses. So I mean there's
really a kind of a granular desire to control what
(40:29):
is going down even down to the parish level, let
alone the diocesan level. So this is worrisome to me.
I hope it's not what it looks like, but I
fear that this is going to be, you know, further
interference and the kind of liberties that I think bishops
should have, and and the overall more relaxing of these
problems over the liturgy.
Speaker 4 (40:49):
That don't need to be there. We can we can step.
Speaker 3 (40:52):
Back from that kind of restrictiveness and it would help
the unity.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Of the church.
Speaker 1 (40:56):
Yeah, so long as we're talking about Pope Leo express
seeing himself, he was caught on a live microphone expounding
on his missionary experience and how that influenced his thinking
on economics, poverty, and war.
Speaker 7 (41:11):
Listen, the missionary experience, I think opened my own heart
and mind to kind of understanding that we need to
work together in the world to make some kind of
difference and many big challenges. I'm convinced that the technology,
the production capacity that we have in the world today,
(41:35):
there should be no.
Speaker 6 (41:35):
One who was hungry.
Speaker 1 (41:37):
Father, your thoughts on this view of economics, I mean,
certainly we can strive to end hunger and war, but
there is human nature and original sin in the world.
Speaker 5 (41:47):
Well, yes, and so hunger as a rea, as a
problem in the world has various causes and we have
to recognize that. So you have famines that are caused
by nature, you know, you have famines caused by warfare.
You have economic scarcity created by dictatorship, like in North Korea.
I mean they have a man made famine there at
(42:08):
various times in their history. Technological progress is helping. I mean,
modern farming techniques are such that in developed countries where
you know there's a market and products, they're bursting at
the seams. You know, we do very well here Canada,
United states other Ukraine before the war was supplying a
(42:29):
huge amount of grain for all.
Speaker 2 (42:31):
Over the world.
Speaker 5 (42:32):
So yeah, we can. Technology is an important element. But
Bob knows this better than I because he's written on it.
The main factors hampering economic development are not the ill
will of some rich person who doesn't want to feed
the poor. Bob probably can talk about this better than I.
Speaker 3 (42:51):
Go ahead, Bob, Yeah, you know, the Pope has actually
criticized the fact that Elon Musk is so wealthy. Now
this is I mean, it's a kind of an easy
way to make the case that there are some people
who are extraordinarily wealthy and others who were extraordinarily poor.
But what Musk does with that money, I mean, what
he's done in terms of producing you know, electric cars
(43:12):
and space exploration and giving people jobs and whatnot. It's
a remarkable thing. And he's also engaged in actually a
lot of philanthropic activity. You know, Father's exactly right. And
of course there's enough food to feed people. You remember
back in the day that the population controllers were saying
that there would be immense famines by nineteen eighty and
millions of people would die. Will never happen and why
(43:35):
did it never happen? Because human inventiveness and human caring
and the capacity we have to identify problems and respond
to them is what really is the wealth of nations
that we've learned that that is what happens, and we
don't have any necessary shortages of food. But all those
things that father was talking about warfare, you know, tyrants,
(43:56):
cultural differences. You know, it's you could pod pipe all
kinds of food to Africa, but how much of it
gets stolen? You know what happens. And that's the problem.
And I'm war you know, I want to go back
to this war question. That is too of course, we
all want peace. I mentioned in a previous episode that
we did that we have a just war theory in Catholicism,
(44:18):
that war per se is an ambiguous thing. I mean, obviously,
the Russian invasion of Ukraine is an injustice, and the
ongoing attack against civilian targets in Ukraine by Putin is
a war crime. There's no question about that. But what
is it What is the status.
Speaker 4 (44:36):
Of the way that Ukraine is going about war?
Speaker 3 (44:39):
That self defense war is absolutely necessary because there are
evil people, and there are greedy people and ambitious people
in the world and they have to be responded to.
So war is in and of itself is an ambivalent category.
You know, the ancient Romans had a slightly ironic phrase
(45:00):
see vis pacem para bellum. If you want peace, prepare
for war. So you have to be able to protect
yourself and also help other countries that are as we
are in the United States helping Ukraine to defend itself.
So look, it's good to be against war in a
generic sense. It's good to say, yeah, we can feed people,
but it probably isn't a good idea to have simplistics,
(45:22):
give the impression of simplistic solutions for the fact that,
as you rightly say, Raymond, we're in a fallen world
with imperfect human beings.
Speaker 1 (45:30):
Before we go, there's an important story I think we
should address. A priest in Spain was acquitted this week
for accusations of hate speech when he spoke out about Islam.
Father Custodio Balistaire made comments critical of Islam back in
twenty seventeen, and a Spanish prosecutor sought a three year
prison sentence against the priest, alleging that his remarks incited
(45:54):
hatred against Muslims. Father Balasteriir's defense argued that the critique
targeted radical Islam, not the wider Muslim community, and the
priest had called Jahadism quote a predatory stain, and he
went on to say that radical Jihadism and violent Islam
want to destroy Europe and the Western civilization.
Speaker 2 (46:17):
Father, you've been following this story.
Speaker 1 (46:19):
How important was this acquittal to the concept of free speech,
not only in Spain but around the world.
Speaker 5 (46:25):
No, it's very important, and it's indicative of the hostility
in Spain these days, both toward Catholicism, which is the
cultural and religious heritage of the country. So it's not
just directed against this priest, it's directed against the entire
history of Spain once it became Christian. But then, secondly,
thank god, this ponce unique. They say in French, the
(46:47):
one thought that's tolerated by the government has been overthrown
by a judge. Say no, if the government doesn't agree
with Father ballast there, then the government has to make
its arguments. They shouldn't prosecute him and put him in jail.
So the judge found in his favor. That's a very
good thing.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Now, Bob, dialogue and discussion, you would think would be
welcomed in the world, but Islam and criticism in it
seems to be off the table.
Speaker 2 (47:15):
And foreboden.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
What should we take from this decision by the Spanish
court and is dialogue possible?
Speaker 4 (47:23):
Well, it would be.
Speaker 3 (47:23):
I mean, you can always be in dialogue with people
who authentically want to be in dialogue with you.
Speaker 4 (47:28):
They're going to be They're going to be.
Speaker 3 (47:30):
Be a real really engaging you. But I think there
are two things that were.
Speaker 4 (47:36):
Happening here in Spain.
Speaker 3 (47:37):
One is, you know, this kind of leftist socialist government
that they have goes after the Church in all sorts
of different ways. And thank God that the rule of law,
I think the proper rule of law held in this
particular case. But the second thing that's going on in
Spain and throughout Europe actually these days almost every country
except the country is like Hungary that have forbidden massive
(47:59):
Muslim immigration, is that they are intimidated by the large
Muslim populations that they've allowed into their countries. You see
this in the UK, you see it in France, you
see it in Germany. And in a sense it's understandable
because they have large numbers of radical Islamists in their
(48:20):
nations these days, So what are they going to do?
The problem is, I think that they have to become
much more vigorous in enforcing the law. I mean across
the board and enforcing the law and allowing criticism to
be made. And you don't arrest the person who makes
the criticism. You arrest the person who threatens the person
who makes the criticism. We've seen all too often lately
(48:41):
that people are being accused of being provocative because they
talk about the way that Islam is a threat to them.
Speaker 4 (48:47):
That's got to stop.
Speaker 2 (48:48):
Posse grateful to you all as always, and look.
Speaker 1 (48:51):
If you want more of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse,
subscribe to the Arroyo Gande Show on YouTube or on
the Arroyo Gandei podcast wherever you.
Speaker 2 (48:59):
Get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray.
Thank you gens.
Speaker 1 (49:04):
Until the Posse rides again, stay the course, follow the light.
Speaker 2 (49:08):
I'm raiming Arroyo. We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (49:11):
The Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse is produced in partnership with
DP Studios and iHeart Podcasts. It's available on the iHeartRadio
app or wherever you get your podcasts,
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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