November 14, 2025 • 54 mins
The US Bishops’ fall meeting takes center stage this week as the Posse unpacks the emotional immigration debate, the growing political tone of the conference, and the influence of federal funding on the USCCB’s advocacy. Raymond, Father Gerald Murray, and Robert Royal examine what was said—and what wasn’t—about legality, pastoral language, and the concerns of ordinary Catholics.
The trio also tackles the continuing doctrinal confusion in the Church, from renewed appeals to the “spirit of Vatican II” to the widening gap between long-standing teaching and new pastoral practices. They dig into the Charlotte altar-rail controversy, Germany’s liturgical theatrics, and the scandal surrounding the confirmation of an openly gay, civilly “married” TV anchor in New York.
In Rome, Pope Leo has called a rare January consistory, which may signal the true start of his pontificate. The Posse explores what this gathering could mean, alongside new research showing Millennials and Gen Z returning to church in greater numbers, hungry for clarity, reverence, and stability.
The episode closes with a sober look at the resurgence of anti-Semitism and the moral confusion fueling it—a reminder of why truth, courage, and fidelity remain essential in turbulent times.
🔔 Subscribe for more inspiring conversations: Arroyo Grande, available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, and everywhere you listen, watch & stream.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
The US Bishops have a full meeting, and they're getting
very political, and why are young people coming back to
the faith? And a scandal erupts in New York City
The Prayerful Posse. We'll explore it all next Stay there,
(00:22):
Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe
to the show. It's a wonderful way to support our
work totally free. Or go to Raymondarroyo dot com. Let's
convene the Prayerful Posse. Canon lawyer and Priest of the
Archdiocese of New York, Father Gerald Murray, and editor in
chief of The Catholic Thing dot org, Robert Royal. The
whole Gang's here, gents. Last week we examined the Holy
(00:45):
Father urging the bishops to speak with one voice on
immigration policy. Well, this week, the United States Bishops at
their Fall meeting answered the call never say we aren't pressing.
Bishop Mark Say of El Paso, who's the chairman of
the Migration Committee, encouraged the bishops to support the migrant
(01:06):
community affected by US immigration policy under President Trump. The
committee's working on a national initiative titled you Are Not Alone.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, here's what he said.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Since January, The Trump administration has remained committed to carrying
out the president's campaign promise of mass deportations. This has
been accompanied by policy changes that are intimidating and dehumanizing
the immigrants in our midst regardless of how they came
(01:40):
to be here. As our late Holy Father Pope Francis
so often reminded us, and as Pope Leo has strongly
reiterated in these months of his papacy, acts of accompaniment
are vitally important and integral to our shared mission of
bringing hope and truth to a world desperately in need.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Father, what do you make of sites comments there, particularly
that that mention of deportations being intimidating and dehumanizing to immigrants.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, I reject the premise. I do not think it
is dehumanizing to enforce law, because you're recognizing that the
person who has violated the law is a rational actor
who made a decision at one point to enter the
country illegally or to overstay a visa, and always doing
that with the knowledge that this was something that was illegal.
(02:38):
So if the law enforcement agent approaches them, they should
admit their fault and then, you know, comply with whatever
is required. Self deportation has been offered by this administration
to people. Many have taken advantage of it, and you know,
I think of the analogy. Let's you know, let's say
let's say about three hundred people decided they wanted to
(03:00):
live in the USCCB headquarters and brought mattresses and all
the rest and their luggage and said we're moving in
and we're going to stay here. Would the bishop's conference say, well,
we have to let them stay. We can't call the
police and a victim because they're coming in here. Legally,
they would never allow three hundred people to take up
residence in their headquarters. So by analogy, the whole country
(03:22):
has a right to a similar policy. Now, legal immigration
were the strengths of this country. We all come from
immigrant stock in our genealogical background. It's a great thing,
but it has to be legal. Illegal immigration is not right, Bob.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know, well, if immigrants or anybody else wanted to
occupy the USCCB headquarters, Father, as we learned during their
budget discussion at this meeting, half the building is empty
and they're looking for four million dollars to make up
the difference.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So you know, they could charge rent. That's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
But Bob, at the meeting, at the fall meeting, during
the presentation of a rather emotional four minute video that
Bishop sites played. It featured testimonials by immigrants who felt traumatized,
and you know, there were tears and it's very emotional.
The same presentation shown to Pope Leo you'll remember several
(04:15):
weeks ago that caused him to reportedly be visibly moved,
And after playing the video, the bishop had this to say.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Allow me to state the obvious. Our immigrant brothers and sisters,
from those who are undocumented to those who are naturalized citizens,
are living in a deep state of fear. Many are
too afraid to work, send their children to school, or
(04:45):
avail themselves of the sacraments, and even those who continued
to participate in daily life do so with a dark
cloud hanging over them.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Bob, what do you make of this political and emotional
messaging and the lack of distinction between those who are
here legally and those who aren't.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Yeah, you know, I think this is rather typical of
the bishops and has been for a while. It goes
back I think at least ten or fifteen years I
was actually invited to speak to a committee of the
bishops about ten years ago who were looking to join
hands with more traditional Catholics to find out, you know,
how can we present our case their case about immigration.
(05:32):
And I remember saying to them at the time that
you know, you downplay the seriousness of the legal question here.
And one bishop, this was an auxiliary bishop from Adiasis
that I won't mention, said well, you know, what you're talking.
Speaker 6 (05:47):
About is like jaywalking.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
It's not all that serious a business, and so therefore
our people are integrating. And I said to him, well,
wait a minute, this is a great deal more serious
than that. This is this involves now sovereignty, all.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
Sorts of different questions.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
It's not just jaywalking. They're all kinds of other elements
that are involved here.
Speaker 6 (06:07):
No, that's said.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Sometimes police actions like this are pretty ugly, and when
police have to go pick up a criminal somebody has
broken the law, it sometimes isn't very nice. And you
can put together a bunch of clips to make it
clear that that's the case. But just because there are
some violations of what should be the proper procedure doesn't
discredit the actual fact of what the police are doing
(06:32):
or what the Border Patrol does or what.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
ICE is doing.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
And you know, I've got to say that the Church
in general is behind the curve on this one. That
we are not in a world that is going to
be a world of open borders. It's created enormous problems
that the church is not recognized, but that many people
in many countries are.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Beginning to recognize. At a political level.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I think that they're going to have to come to
terms with this very soon, and the sooner the better,
because it's not going to be a pretty picture if
it goes on the way it's been going.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, they don't seem to be getting the message at
all this new statement. In fact, at Bishop's Supches, Cardinal
Supches Urging condemns what he calls indiscriminate deportations, and they
added a thing about with no regard for due process. Well,
if somebody has an a visa overstay father and is
(07:22):
in violation of US code, they can be legally deported.
And the one thing you never hear, which I think
actually would help the bishop's argument and help them reach
more people, is about the criminality and abuse of the
American system by these cartels and the utter lack of
human dignity that are endured by those who are trafficked here.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Now it's correct, I mean, it's as Bob says, this
is an emotional presentation and is designed to get people
to say, oh, you know, keep the police at home,
don't arrest anybody. Can't we all just get along? And
the answer is, if you want that policy, convince Congress
to repeal all laws regulating entry into the country. And
(08:08):
the last election showed that people don't want that. The
Bidy administration led an unsupervised inflow of people that cartels
took advantage of to traffic people in here for prostitution,
drug distribution and other things. We have these gangs from
different Latin American countries who came in here to be
part of criminal enterprises. This is what happens when you
(08:30):
have a system in which the law is ignored, and
this is therefore in need. What this is, we would
call this a wall street, a correction. Things are getting
back to what they're supposed to be. Now it's you know,
do we love immigrants illegal and legal. Of course we
do the Church. So illegal aliens who are present here
(08:51):
have every right to be taken care of by Catholic
charities to have pastoral services. I would object if it's
true that ICE is not letting priests get into the
facilities to hear confessions and say mass and communion. That's
all should be regulated. But the idea that someone who
violates our law has a right to stay here and
not be arrested, that's a revolutionary idea. And if the
(09:14):
Catholic Church wants to pursue that, okay, hire the lawyers,
station them, you know, at the ICE facilities, and try
to get them becore. But these people who have already
been had a process which judge that they needed to
be evicted. ICE knows who these people are, and they're
going after them because they're already in the system. So
this is not the way that the Catholic Church should
be advocating. They should advocate for greater legal immigration. That's
(09:38):
what we need, more people coming in legally.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And look, I love that they're saying everyone should be
afforded human dignity. Obviously everyone should. That is a wonderful
position for the church. I do worry when the church
starts leaning though into immigration policy and characterizing in one
direction these deportations with no mention of what drove it.
I mean President Trump went out and he ran on
(10:05):
deporting illegal immigrants and he won.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So it isn't like it was a secret.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
This is what the American people wanted and it comports
with American law. Bob, this is from the City Journal.
I'm going to read you this full excerpt because it
may explain this corporate advocacy we're seeing coming from the
Bishop's Conference and as we reported last week, really coming
from Rome as well. Total federal grants and contributions made
(10:32):
to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and its affiliate
organizations for refugee assistance programs rose from fourteen point six
million under the first Trump administration in twenty nineteen to
one hundred and twenty two point six million in twenty
twenty two, according to audited financial statements. In just three
(10:52):
years under Biden, those grants totaled more than two hundred
million dollars. Signature federal program Preferred Communities tries to integrate
immigrants into local communities. In twenty twenty three, the US
Conference of Catholic Bishops was the top recipient of those grants,
(11:13):
garnering sixty six point five million dollars.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Reports opened the books.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Over three years, Catholic groups received more than one hundred
and ten million from this program alone. Bob Catholic Charities
received something like two billion dollars in twenty twenty three
in that one year. How much of this immigrant advocacy
is driven by the loss of these federal grants, which
we have to say floated the USCCB bureaucracy.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Well, look, I wouldn't over emphasize this. I mean, it's
clear that this plays a role, and there are lots
of agencies, of course that that send back information to
the Washington headquarters here, and you know, between one thing
and another, no doubt it exerts some pressure on the
Bishop's Conference as an institute, as a conference. And I
(12:04):
would just add though that there really is throughout our bishops.
I don't know how deep this runs, but there is
a kind of a generalized sense, and I don't know
where this comes from, that somehow enforcing immigration law is immoral.
You know, we've got a new vice president and vice
(12:25):
president of the Bishop's Conference, Bishop especially Cochley is the president,
very good man, but he's in favor of accompanying the
illegal immigrants. And then Bishop Flores who's now the new
vice president, said in twenty seventeen that arresting illegals was
(12:47):
a material cooperation in an intrinsic evil. He compared it
to driving someone to an abortion clinic for an abortion.
Now you know, he's very intell He's a PhD in theology,
is a very intelligent man. Somehow, these people, I think,
have been mesmerized by this idea of accompanying the stranger,
(13:11):
because it is not an evil in say a molement,
say that we say in theology abortion is an evil
in itself. Arresting somebody who is any illegal immigrant in
the United States is not an evil in itself. In fact,
it might be a good in itself depending on the circumstances,
and people who are carrying that out ice or whatever
(13:31):
law enforcement agencies may be actually doing a good thing
for the community.
Speaker 6 (13:35):
So look, this runs deep.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
It's a combination I suppose of money and I think
a distorted view of Catholic morals that have given us
this This witch is brew that has to be examined
more careful. It needs to be examined here. And I
think Roman insta come to terms with this as well.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah yeah, well, I mean, look, you're seeing this in
Europe too. Europe is saying, wait minute, maybe we allowed
too much of this unfedered illegal immigration, and now we're
seeing the cultural clash that Benedict the sixteenth warned was
upon us and was happening in Europe, and that he
was urging. You'll remember back in two thousand and eight,
two thousand and seven that Europe needed to rediscover its roots,
(14:19):
it's Christian roots, and now you see them being imperiled. Father,
is it time for the bishops to get out of
the relocation business? I mean, for years they've basically been
paid by the federal government to relocate illegal and legal
immigrants and refugees all across the country.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, yeah, I mean this is a dilemma because, I mean,
let's look at it from what it is. The Biden
administration had a policy of allowing people to enter the
country illegally. In other words, they didn't have a visa,
but they let them in, and they gave them a
document which said you have to appear at immigration court
and that could be five to ten years later. So,
in other words, it was a day fact waiving the
(14:59):
men into the country and granting them a temporary status
so once they're in government control, the government decided we're
not going to spend money ourselves and build housing and
social services and all the it's not going to be
a federal responsibility. We're going to point it or pint it.
We're going to franchise it out to private groups, including
(15:20):
the Catholic Church. No, by the way, why can't they
franchise out educational vouchers in the same way. Okay, so
American citizens who want to send their kids to non
public schools could do that. So it's okay to send
illegal aliens to Catholic facilities for resettlement, but it's not
okay to use federal dollars to help pay poor kids
who want to go to a Catholic school. Not just
(15:40):
in the side, but in other words, the Catholic Church
is doing a good thing. I'm not going to criticize
people who were involved in resettlement services because they were acting,
according to the law, for a laudable motive, which is
to help people who are poor need adjustment and you know,
language and all the rest. But the question for the
America con citizens was do we want to keep doing this? Yeah?
(16:03):
And people said no. That was part of the big
part of the election, and I don't think the bishops
should turn around till the American people know Trump is wrong.
These people have a right to stay and it doesn't
matter that they came in illegally. It does matter. If
law doesn't matter, then we might as well just basically
live in bunkers, because if there's no law, then it's
(16:24):
a free for all in society. We don't operate that way.
The American people don't want that, The Catholic Church doesn't
want that. I mean if somebody like the analogy I
said about coming into the headquarters, if people got in
there and took up residents, of course the bishops are
going to call the police. They're not going to want
to go confront who knows who living in their building illegally.
(16:44):
So we all live by law. We have to. If
you don't like the law, work to change. That's a
great thing. In the free society. You don't like laws,
elect people to change it. That's how you should operate.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But I worry in the effort to a company anyone
who wants to come into the country. And Bishop Sites
mentioned Afghanis and Nigerians and people from all over the
world in an effort to want to accompany them. When
do you accompany the American citizens, the people in your pews,
and law enforcement who are risking their lives to protect
(17:17):
that law and execute it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah. Well, I'll just jump back in again. The federal
government needs to be out of our lives about directing
so many things. They shouldn't allow legal aliens in. That's
what the Trump administration are doing. We shouldn't get involved
in the police actions and try to stop them because
they're acting legally. And then why don't we reduce taxes
so people can afford to do the things they want to.
(17:42):
I mean, it's so annoying to see that Catholic schools
are closing right and left in this country because of
inflation and other associated costs. This isn't how the society
should operate. We should favor private initiatives that benefit the citizenry.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, as is customary at these annual the fall meeting
at least of the USCCB, the papal nuncio, who is
the Pope's representative in the United States. He made a
statement to the bishops of the us at the start
of this gathering, Cardinal Christophe Pierre Bob urged the body
to remain faithful to Pope Francis's pastoral path and to
(18:19):
the vision of the Second Vatican Council. The Nuncio talked
a lot about the late Pope Francis and his vision.
Your thoughts, Bob on the heavy focus on the previous pontificate.
He also said something about the Vatican Two is the
key to any revolution, any updates that will happen in.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The future, the path of the Church going forward.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, I have to say I was really quite surprised
by this discourse that he gave to the bishops, because
when you try to understand what somebody is saying, one
of the better ways to do that is who do
they think their audience is, and what do they think
that that audience most.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Needs to hear.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
And so our American bishop, who by and large or
Orthodox men, there's still largely in the line of John
Paula's second and Benedict, which is why they elected Archbishop Coakley.
Clearly he felt they needed to hear that Francis's vision
should continue, and no, no doubt he heard.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
He checked that with Rome, and Rome said, yeah, go
ahead with that.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
But the thing that was even more amazing was the
way he kept going back and back to Vatican two,
and as if Vatican two had predicted the moment that
we're in right now, this change of moment that it
anticipated in the rest of the world had not well.
In fact, there's been so much debate over what Vatican
two meant. This is why they need to keep going
(19:41):
back to this idea, the spirit of Vatican two, because
the documents don't seem to say what.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
The spirit allegedly is saying.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
And what we have right now is something that I
think is much different, much different than that that particular
reading of Vatican two, going all the.
Speaker 6 (19:56):
Way back to shortly after it closed.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
We are really in a different world, but it's not
the one that points back to this kind of open
world in which we're supposed to build bridges and not fences.
I think it's time to start building some fences, and
not only in the secular world, but in the church
as well. We need to get back to the point
where we have a clear definition of what it is
(20:18):
to be inside the church and outside the church, what
actually belongs to the faith and doesn't.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
Belong to the faith.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Look, it will change things that happen some people will leave,
some people will be attracted. But the Church can only
continue to exist if it has that sort of clarity
about what it is, and what it is cannot simply
be a kind of a more pious version of what's
going in the secular world.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Bob, Wow, it's time for the church to build fences.
Bob Royle, I'm putting that on my Bumpersire Father, that's.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
A patent to saying for Noah.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
It's a great line.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But Father does speak to this confusion. I mean, I
don't know why they keep talking about the spirit of
Vatican two. Since Vatikan two, we have less people in
the pews, less people ordain, less people baptized, less people
were returning to the sacraments, and as Bob referenced, a
general confusion about the essences and foundational beliefs of the faith.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Well, you know that confusion is why Saint John Paul
the second issue the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So
if you know the Nuncio wants to people go back
to Vatican two and understand it in the contemporary scene. Well,
John Paul the second was that Vatican two he said,
we need a catechism. The bishops of the world. The
greed he issued. The Categins is one of the most
(21:43):
important documents that was issued in the post Concilier period.
And what was it. It's exactly what Bob was saying.
It was establishing this is what we believe, this is
what we don't believe. This is why we believe it,
this is why we don't believe these other things. I
was distressed because to identify Poe frien Ansis's policies with
Vatican two forgets that, in fact Pop Francis contradicted Vatican
(22:06):
two in a few things. Their Senate of Bishops was
established by the Second Vatican Council. It never said that
lay people should be added as voting members. That's what
Pope Francis did. VATICANU never said you should bless same
sex couples, which is what Post Francis did. Vadigan who
never said that people divorced and remarried to receive Holy communion,
(22:27):
That's what Pop Francis did. Vadigan TU never said that
God willed all religions, That's what Pop Francis signed a
document stating it, and then he said later he meant
God's passive will, but still he's identifying the will of
God with the existence of non Christian religions. We believe
that Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise made to Israel and
that there's one faith based precisely on the revelation God
(22:50):
made through Christ. We don't accept Buddhism and other religions
as being alternate, valuable ways that God wants people to act. No,
God wants people to be burt convert to come to
the Catholic religion. So yeah, I think that what the
Nunzia was trying to say is and I'm sure this
was of course approved by the Roman authorities, which is
(23:11):
the American hierarchy has not shown enough enthusiasm for the
heritage of Pope Francis. They better get in line because
otherwise we're going to accuse them of being unfaithful to
the Second Vatican Council, to which I would say, ex eminence.
Here's Academy of Catholic Church. Show me where the things
that Pope France has innovated are in that book, because
they're not.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
M Wow, We're going to move on because this is
something we've been covering for weeks and it speaks to
this this battle over the traditional liturgy and even traditional
practices across the United States. The Diocese of Charlotte once again,
Bishop Michael Martin announced he will ban the use of
all altar rails for the reception of Holy Communion in
(23:55):
his diocese beginning the first Sunday of Advent. Father, I'll
start with you on this again. Can a bishop do
this canonically? I thought the faithful couldn't be kept from
kneeling if they wish to receive that way.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Well, a couple of precisions. First is, we don't know
about this because one of the pastors made an announcement
about this decree. Company the decree has not been published,
so the canon laura I say, I won't comment on
a diosin legislation unless I read it. But let's presume
that it's accurate. The bishop is not forbidding people to
kneel for communion. He's simply not allowing them to have
(24:31):
something to kneel down at an ultra rail or a predieu.
It is you could say, I think you make canonical case.
The bishop has the right as the local ordinary to
regulate the arrangement of his churches. In other words, the
liturgical appointments he has a right to do it, but
that right is also can be contested once the decree
(24:55):
is issued by late people saying you're depriving us of
the right to receive union kneeling in a way that
is convenient for us. I mean, think about an eighty
year old grandma who wants to receive communion kneeling, And
now you're telling you we're gonna the altra rail can't
be used, so we're going to go in the middle
aisle and you got to kneel down on the ground,
find your way to the floor. Granted, what kind of
(25:15):
charity is that? And I think it's it's certainly not
the mind of the legislator. Now let's get back also
to reality. Has any pope ever said that altar rails
are a bad thing and need to be removed? Never heard?
My goodness is so incredible.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Why are we wasting time with this stuff? Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Why are they wasting time with the ink to write
this kind of mandate and directive?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It makes no sense to me. Bob.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Meanwhile, in an almost comical counter story, okay, in Germany,
a priest conducted a Halloween service dressed in a Dracula costume.
Complete with artificial fog, and he emerged from a coffin.
Very is, Bob, why are these bishops so worried about
tradition and grandma and twenty and eighteen year old kids
(26:07):
kneeling when this nonsense is going on.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
It's because they need to build more walls, which I
forgat you know, you alter rail, it's kind of a wall,
you know, actually on that one, just to start there
for a second, this really is an attempt to erase
the difference between the profane and the set and the sacred,
(26:34):
you know, I mean there's always been a kind of
a sacred space in the ancient temple in Israel and
most religions.
Speaker 6 (26:39):
And this really I see this.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
We've talked about this before, but I really see this
as like this an attempt to make us the mass
is just kind of all of us getting together and
you know, having a nice time together. I Mean, one
of the things people try to do is to go
back and figure out what was the original last separate, like, well,
whatever it was that the apostles weren't standing line and
you know, receiving community. We know we can say that
(27:03):
for sure, but look, these two things are related. You're
quite right, because in one way we're breaking down the
idea of the sacred some sacred space and some you know,
in some of the legitimate Catholic rights, like in the
Eastern Byzantine rights, there actually is a screen, right, an
i kinographic screen between you know, the the altar and
the and the people. And I think that it's one
(27:26):
thing for a bishop and go out on a limb
like this. I really wish our bishops would get together
about it. It's not a good thing for a bishop's
conference to have to decide things like this, but certainly
in the United States we should have some kind of
uniform acceptance of maybe a couple of different things that
you can do. But a guy popping out of a coffin,
I think if I were the bishop of that diocese,
(27:48):
I would have had, you know, some medics right after that,
right to pick him up and take him to some
place and get him some help, because I mean, what
the world is? How does this happen? And the one
Holy Roman Catholic and Apostology.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Did you see those pictures father of the guy in
the drag kalla get up?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yeah? I did. And for me, this is a symbol
of what the Catholic Church has done in Germany, which
is they've rejected revealed religion and entered the popularity contest
to get views on the internet. This is like the
priest I saw recently who dressed up in a rapper's outfit,
you know, with the heavy gold fake gold chain and
(28:29):
the hat and the glasses, and he was rapping during Mass.
In other words, you know, rhymed poetry.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Steelenloudnsa pete fakundat allen.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
This is absurd this and you know what it reveals
to is a theological poverty that the act of worship
is essentially an entertainment forum. And people no longer liked
the old entertainment we gave them when we had mass,
so now we're going to do it, was gonna substitute
it with other things. And you just say to yourself, Father,
did Jesus Christ come down into the world so that
(29:05):
his priests would be a B level version of Dracula movies?
Of course not. This is absurd. This is this is sad,
and it's just the spiritual rot in Germany is so
deep when these kind of things happen. And then you know,
Bob says, the guys needs needs a medic. Maybe he does,
(29:26):
or maybe he simply needs a b issue who says, no,
we're here to promote religion, not entertainment.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, or in Exorcist, Oh yeah, well maybe that too.
And father, don't don't insult Dracula movies. You know, I
had Bela Lugosi's granddaughter on a few weeks ago. Bela
Lugosi was a faithful Catholic who served Blessed Karl during
the war at Mass. So you know, sometimes Dracula is
more than some of these people.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Hold on, Raymond, I love Dracula movies. I love Frankenstein,
you know. But the thing is.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That, but that's not what church is all about, right,
you know what I'm offering the sacraments.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Okay, some possible good news, Bob, you flagged this force.
Pope Lio has announced a special consistory of cardinals at
the top of January. We don't have details on why
they're meeting. But first of all, Bob, what is a
consistory of cardinals? A lot of people here that term.
They don't know what you're talking about. And why is
this different from Pope Francis.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Well, I mean, broadly speaking, a consistory the cardinals who
were kind of advisors to the Holy Father at least
in theory ideally, you know, they come together in Rome.
He gathers them together in Rome and they get to
sit down and talk through some questions with one another.
It was a strange thing about the papacy of Pope
Francis that he after the first I think it was
(30:45):
only a first consistory that he had where Cardinal Casper
spoke about what became kind of the amorous Laticia line
of some people being able to receive Holy Communion who
were divorced without having an annulment. And I think after
the disappointment that the cardinals didn't get together behind Cardinal
(31:05):
Casper and along with Poe Francis, but Francis didn't really
convene consistency consistories like that again, right, and the criticism
was often made and we made it, the three of
us made it many times. Is that what that did
is that the cardinals didn't.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
Really know one another.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
They didn't get a chance as a body to advise
the pope very much. And so this is a departure.
As much as Leo has talked about wanting to follow
in the line of Poe Francis one of his first
official acts. And this year, you know, as we said,
this is a jubilee year, so his schedule is choc
a block with one event after another after another that's
(31:42):
been scheduled for years. And so in the first week
after the Jubilee year ends, he's got scheduled to try
to get all the cardinals as many as possible or
from around the world to Rome with him to talk
about what we don't know, as you rightly say, but
already just to bring them together and to consult with him.
(32:02):
That's kind of a sonotyl church that I could applaud.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Father.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
This is it is interesting my thought when I read
it and read the several reports where this is covered,
it did seem to me this may be the actual
beginning of Pope Leo's reign, where he begins to for
the first time sort of be his own man, without
the specter of Pope Francis that has really covered him
(32:32):
throughout this Jubilee year that, as Bob said, was already
largely set in motion. The man is kind of walking
through the steps that we might have seen Pope Francis
walk through.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Well, we'll find out. You know, I can say that
he didn't observe Pope Francis's dress, manner of dressing his
you know his he's used. He's done a lot more
of the formalities of John Paul the second in Benedict,
so he can declare himself when he wants. He's also
taken days off with Leo. Pope Ranis never did. Now
(33:01):
just a little. The Pope Francis had a couple more
consistories and the last one though, no, you aren't allowed
to approach the mic and speak on your own. You
have to be called, and you have to submit your
comments ahead of time and all. It was very controlled.
In fact, it was it was stage managed, so to say.
So my first thing is to find out will the
(33:22):
Cardinals get an open mic and more than two minutes
to speak? If they're giving five minutes to speak, then
we're going to have some serious conversation, you know. I mean,
if you can do a podcast for forty minutes with
three guys, why can't Why can't think the Cardinals do
something similar, you know, designate someone to represent different groups
from different languages or people whatever. But the real thing
(33:44):
for me is going to be, is this going to
be a rah rah session to say everything, Pope Francis,
did we have to endorse or will this be a truly,
you know, candid and realistic assessment of where the Catholic
Church is today, because we have open rep rebellion in
the Catholic Church, particularly on moral and doctrinal questions that
(34:05):
cannot be allowed to go unaddressed because if they if
they're not addressed, we're gonna have more chaos. And this
is particularly in matters of sexuality, the ordination of women,
and then the whole question of do lay people share
in governance in the church, which is now you know,
we have women and lay people being given roles in
the Roman Cury which never were given before. And this
(34:28):
is all part of Pot Francis's vision of accompaniment, which
means everybody has a say in how the church is governed.
That has to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Okay, for the record, Bob Royle, it's time to build walls.
Father Gerald Murray, open, Mike Knight for the cardinals.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I'm gonna write the I'm creating these bumper stickers.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I'm gonna sell them everywhere, Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
In perhaps another sign of hope, Millennials and gen Zers,
we learn, are now more likely to attend church than
their parents, acording to new research released by BARNA the
Barner Group. These findings show a marked reversal of decades
long trends that where we saw younger folks leaving church
attendants behind, Millennials and members of Gen Z have now
(35:14):
overtaken boomers and elders as the most frequent churchgoers. According
to Berna's stats, the average Gen Z Christian now attends
services one point nine weekends per month, Millennials one point
eight times, a steady increase for both groups since the pandemic. Father,
(35:36):
why are we seeing this, what is driving it?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
And are you seeing this in your own parish?
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Well, when I see these statistics, I do wonder, because yes,
I do see young people coming to church, but not
in the numbers I remember when I was a kid
back in the nineteen sixties and seventies. So you know,
just the attendant statistics are taken every year in all
the dioceses of the country, so we know who's going
to church who isn't. Now the surveys I won't. I
(36:05):
haven't done this, you know, study about their methodology, but
I will say this as the Charlie Kirk murder and
subsequent things have revealed, young people are hungry for truth
and authenticity. They're tired of the fake woke movement in
this country. They're tired of, you know, the religion of
balloons and cake. They want something that's going to address
(36:27):
questions of sin, salvation, how do I live a happy life?
So I'm not surprised that that's happening. But you know
the question is are we offering the authentic Catholic version
of life to them or are they going to be
simply going along and saying, you know, don't worry of
what you're doing in life. You know God's and God's
the God of accompaniment. The word is conversion. The word
(36:51):
is adhesion or coherence. That's what we need to teach,
not walk with us and will smile at each other. Yeah, Bob.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Any thing to add there about why these young people
are coming forward and what they're seeking.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
Well, I think it's probably several different things. I wouldn't
I wouldn't put too much energy behind this thinking that
we've got a sea change coming. Maybe we do, and
I hope we do, but these things kind of go cyclical.
Speaker 6 (37:18):
I know we all remember it.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Back in the nineteen eighties, there was a Catholic moment,
according to our friend Richard House, and there was there
was there was a bump up in Catholicism at the time,
and then it kind of faded away in the nineties
and the two thousands.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
I mean, these are good signs. Father.
Speaker 5 (37:34):
I think is exactly right that the deepest motivation probably
is these are kids who are not haven't there's nothing
even for them to rebel against. They haven't even seen
a church that's a substantial church, and so when they
do come in contact with it, and it's something different
from the lack of substance that exists in the society
(37:55):
as a whole. I mean, I look back at Jordan Peterson.
Why was Jordan Peterson, you know, so so effective. I
mean he's brilliant. Obviously he knew how to speak to
young people. But it wasn't only that he presented them
with something solid. You know, get up in the morning,
put your shoulders back, don't slatch you around, shake hands
with people, look them in the I mean, you know,
(38:16):
engage the world, be a human being in the well.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
This is what we've talked about for years and it's
a pity. And look, I talk. I travel a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I was just in Nashville, I was just in Texas,
I was just out in California. When you see the
young people pouring and packing into these churches, they're going
to traditional services. They're looking for traditional, solid structure.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Bob. That's what Jordan Peterson gave them, structure.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And I hate to say it, this is the rigidity
that Pope Francis tried to drive out of Catholic worship.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
This is exactly what the young people are looking for.
They're looking for.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Something solid and a form and a structure in a
world of chaos and fluidity. And I don't know why
we're removing the foundations and the structure that the biggest
possible group of new Catholics are seriously craving.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Father.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Well, you know, I would add on this too.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
We've had a lot of new initiatives in the church,
especially here in the United States, you know, eucharistic congresses,
all sorts of things that have been developing. I talked
to young people who are on secular campuses where their
campus ministries are really really right good. You know, this
is something different than existed in the past. So look
(39:31):
wherever we are, we build up this little bit and
you know, next thing, you know, all of a sudden
there's a wave of kind of conversions, of a wave
of young people coming into the church. I mean, we
should never despair of the power of the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit is allowed to be presented to
people like this. They're hungry for something, and we might
as well give them the best thing of all, which
(39:52):
is the Eucharist and the faith that will not only
help them in this life, but in eternity.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Father, you want to add any last one.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Well, I live in the land of mayor elect Ma'm
Danny Okay, who was elected by the younger generation and
the combination of other factors including South Asian voters and
the like. But I think we're seeing, you know, we're
seeing a different split in the country, which is where
where there's less influence of elite institutions such as Ivy
(40:22):
League schools and the federal government. Uh, there's much more
open spirit. I mean, I Texas a and m I
hear one of the best Catholic centers from the whole country,
and they have lots and lots of kids going there.
I think that's where the spirit of religion is appreciated
and taken for, you know, in the right sense. But look,
God is good. It only takes a couple of saints
(40:45):
to revolutionize a diocese or a country. I mean, Saint
Charles Borromeo is still talked about in Milan, you know,
five centuries later, because he was a holy bishop. And
you know, we have the same thing in our country
that we have people who are great. Mother Teresa Calcutt
is probably the only woman that every single American could
recognize who she is if you said it. And she
(41:07):
was a Catholic noun who take care of port people
in far distrom India. So I don't know, God acts
in ways that are mysterious, thank God, because we mess
it up all the time.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Well, and the Mandani, the wave you've seen in New York,
I'm going to argue, Father, hold me to this in
a few years. That will create a cauldron of confusion
and misery that's going to drive people into your parish
and others like it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Watch just watch it, inevited.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
When there's chaos and confusion, the church thrives and persecution
and you might get all.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Of that in New York City.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I hate to say, Father, I need you both to
weigh in on this. This week and openly gay TV
anchor is returning to the church after twenty five years.
He credits Pope Francis's legacy of inclusion and the outreach
of Jesuit Father James Martin for his return. This is
thirty eight year old Geo Benitez, known from ABC's Good
(42:03):
Morning America program, who's openly gay. He's married to a man,
received the sacrament of confirmation at Manhattan's Church of Saint
Paul the Apostle, which is well known for its LGBTQ ministry.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Father, your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What does canon law say about the reception of the
sacraments in a case like this?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
No, this is a scandalous event that should never have happened.
Mister Geo Benitez is in a so called same sex marriage,
which means he either went to a religion that agrees
with that a Protestant church, or to a civil ceremony,
and is now claiming that he's married to a man. Okay,
(42:47):
that is an open rejection of Catholic doctrine about the
nature of marriage. If he sincerely thinks he has a husband.
Then he is rebelling against the very faith he now
claims he's returning to. In addition, the same sex couple
engages in sexual activity, that's the purpose of having that
same sex relationship. The Church does not bless sodomy. This
(43:11):
is quite clear. This is why Pot Francis's activity and
saying you can bless same sex couples with so scandalous
and wrong. It needs to be stopped. Now we're having
a situation in which priests such as Father Martin and
the priests at that parish are saying, well, Post Francis said,
we can bless couples, and you know, we have an
inclusive view. The inclusive view is amnesia about what Jesus taught.
(43:35):
You know, Jesus did not endorse sodomy. It's condemned in
the Bible, it's condemned in natural law. So someone who
is publicly identifying themselves as engaging in that behavior and
pretends he's married to a man, he cannot be confirmed
in the Catholic Church because he is basically what we
would say in canon law, publicly defiant against the faith.
(43:57):
So this is a scandal. This is very, very wrong.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Bob Bishop Joseph Strickland, who is a bishop emeritus, was
at the bishop's conference this week. He got up in
the middle of the conference and said, so long as
we're talking about doctrine, I think we as a body
need to talk about this event that took place in
New York, the one we just described. And you know,
he thought it was scandalous. The bishops just ignored him.
(44:23):
They just went on, thank you, Bishop, and moved on
and continued with business.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Your reaction to that and this story.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Poor Bishop Strickland, I mean, he was brave enough to
stand up. I mean he obviously it's pursuona on grata
in several quarters.
Speaker 6 (44:39):
But look at what this is the bishops.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
I think a large number of our bishops in the
United States, for all the problems that we know exists
in the church, probably agreed with him. They aren't willing
to stand up in public and say that they're supportive
of him.
Speaker 6 (44:55):
And why well, they would have to cross.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Swords with the Jesuits who have a over James Martin,
who is a Jesuit priest. They would also have to
implicitly be looking to Pope Leo, who met with Father
Martin shortly after he was elected, and according to Father
Martin said, you know, keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 6 (45:14):
And what he's doing is creating confusion like.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
This, and you know, these are Salami tactics. Every time
there's a story like this that appears, it makes it
look one more time like the church is moving in
the direction of accepting homosexual activity, even though the highest
authorities say, oh, no, no, no, that's not what we're doing.
We're just accompanying people. You know, we're not blessing couples,
We're blessing individuals. Look, the world is understanding what the
(45:40):
message is here. And I don't know how much longer
we do this can go on. At some point there's
going to be an explosion. It will not get better.
Ignoring it will not make it go away, and ignoring
it will only make it turn it into a more
and more difficult decision to make when it comes to
a crisis point. And shame on our bishops. Shame on
(46:02):
our bishops. They should do something, perhaps not even as
a group, but they certainly were willing to stand up
when when Cardinal Superch was willing to give an award
to Senator Durbin in Illinois for his pro immigration work.
We need some kind of activity on the part of
our bishops, public activity to say no, this sort of
(46:24):
thing cannot take place. This is not even this is
not even something that Fiducia Suplicans says is okay. It
actually violates what we're told Fiducia Suplicans allows. So it's
not only scandalous to me, this is a further step
into a realm that is going to destroy whatever remains of.
Speaker 6 (46:47):
The Church's teaching about LGBT.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
We've been hearing a lot about anti Semitism in the
news of late given the controversy over Israel's war against
Thomas Tucker Carlson featuring Nick Fuinte on his show, and
the sixtieth anniversary of the landmark Vatican two document Nostra Atate.
There was a Benedictine College history professor, Richard Crane, who
(47:11):
said the following.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
He said, it is a disturbing time.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
To live in, not just because of the resurgence of
anti Semitism, but the extent to which this is poisoned
at least elements of the Catholic faithful. Father your thoughts
on this alleged resurgence of anti Semitism, particularly in Catholic circles.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Do you see this after the Nazi killing of seven
million Jews. If we in the West are not conscious
of the fact that there are people who want to
do that again, then we are amnesiacs and moral cowards.
We have to confront the group of people who hate
Jews want to wipe Israel off the map. And now
(47:54):
we have the Islamic fanatics who join with the traditional
anti Semites and blame everything on the Jews. You know, no,
I look, I think in the fact most Catholics are
not anti Semitic. I think Nick Frents is kind of
a nut on the on the fringe, and I hope
he changes his mind, but we should have nothing to do.
(48:15):
The insinuation is also the conservative move in the United
States has always been anti Semitic. It's not only coming
to the surface. I reject that completely, and I don't
think that Tucker Carlson did a good thing and others
trying to defend him this. Nick fwent As is a
Nazi fanatical apologist. I don't accept that kind of person
in any civil discourse.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Bob is a journalist and a writer and thinker on
this scene for a long time, your thoughts on the
conflagration of hostility or upsetment over Israel's foreign policy decisions
with anti Semitism, we are seeing kind of a melding here.
Speaker 6 (48:55):
Yeah, it's a strange thing.
Speaker 5 (48:56):
As many people have said that once you put the
two words together, the Jews, they're already in dangerous territory,
as if every Jew is the same and it's all
an international conspiracy or whatnot. Look, it's possible to criticize
what Israel jating Gaza. I myself think that they have
a right to defend themselves, and I myself feel that
(49:18):
although I'm a supporter of Israel, that they may have
gone too far in certain ways. But it's not my decision.
They know the threat that they're facing there. But the
way that this demonic, slithering anti Semitism has just come
out of the sewer and hooked itself onto this debate
about Israel, to me is something diabolical. I mean, we
(49:40):
have to begin from the point that we have as Catholics,
we have an unshakable connection to Israel, the true Israel,
because the true Israel.
Speaker 6 (49:50):
Is what gave us Jesus.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises to Israel, as
Father said earlier in this show, and that we can't
cannot be an anti semit As. I think it was
Paul six said spiritually, we are all semis We are
all part of that religion that began with Abraham and
that continued through the Jewish people and now is embodied
(50:13):
in the Church itself. The Church has become a kind
of a fulfillment of the Jewish people. And so the
way that this hooks onto Conservatism is very, very strange.
I mean, we all recalled. It was Bill Buckley, the
editor of National Review, who back in the nineteen fifties
and sixties when some of this started to emerge, made
very clear, as a Catholic and as a conservative in
(50:35):
America that this was not going to be part of
the respectable right in the United States. And somehow it
keeps coming back and coming back, and I think it's
because it has an evil spiritual origin. We must stop it.
And I don't know what motivated Tucker Carlson to give
a platform to this young man who is so deeply,
(50:56):
deeply disturbed and speaking evil.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I got to end with this. Father.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
The Church's highest trial court, the Roman Rota, has ruled
in favor of an American priest who sued over the
release of his name in a so called credibly accused
clergy list. In a November ninth article in La Republica,
an unnamed pre successfully brought a claim for defamation before
(51:22):
the Rohoters Tribunal under the norms of Canon two twenty
of the Code of Canon Law, which forbids quote the
illegitimate harm of a person's good reputation? Father, what are
those canons explicitly say? What's meant by illegitimate harm?
Speaker 4 (51:38):
Yeah? Well, this is a debated point in canon law,
because priests who are accused of a crime have a
right to self defense. They have a right that their
good name not be impugned, meaning that the fact that
the accusation has been given means that they are treated
(51:59):
by the church as if they're guilty. But is an
indictment in a civil court or a criminal court. Is
an indictment a harm to someone's reputation? You could say,
in one sense, maybe, but the whole legal system depends
on the fact that we are now going to submit
that person to a process in which he's given every
(52:21):
opportunity to defend his name and he doesn't have to
prove his innocence, you know, the state has to prove
his guilt. So in the Catholic Church they had to say,
rather than conduct trials so that people's names can people
can be cleared of acute accusations, they simply say, well,
this man has been accused, and we're going to put
(52:42):
the name out there. This has to often do with
people who are dead, in other words, accusation against dead priests,
and then they put them out there. Now it's a
difficult question because for me, if someone's indicted, that's not
a harm to their reputation. That's if you want to
live in a free system with a legal system, you
have to submit to its claims. If you don't like it,
(53:03):
get out of the country. But you're never going to
find a better system, in my view, to combine the
rights of people to be considered innocent and the rights
of victims and the state to prosecute criminals and people
cause harm. So I'm waiting to see how this it
plays out. Because there is no legal standard for the
definition what does it mean to be credibly accused? I
(53:24):
was never happy with that. I think it much be
better to say this man is now subject to a
prosecution and then don't leave that open, finish the trial
and then determine guilty or innocence. So but this is
again we talked about a lot. Modern standards of justice
are not being infect in canonical criminal procedures. They go
(53:44):
on these ancient ways of doing things where everything's hidden,
and then the authority invents a term like credibly accused.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
No, that's not how it should be. Okay, POSSI. We
will leave it there. Thank you both for your time.
Grateful to you all as always. If you want more
of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo
Grande channel on YouTube or follow our podcast wherever you
get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray
Until the Posse rides again, Gang, stay the course, follow
(54:15):
the light on Raymond Arroyo.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
The US Bishops have a full meeting, and they're getting
very political, and why are young people coming back to
the faith? And a scandal erupts in New York City
The Prayerful Posse. We'll explore it all next Stay there,
(00:22):
Welcome to an important Prayerful Posse. Be sure to subscribe
to the show. It's a wonderful way to support our
work totally free. Or go to Raymondarroyo dot com. Let's
convene the Prayerful Posse. Canon lawyer and Priest of the
Archdiocese of New York, Father Gerald Murray, and editor in
chief of The Catholic Thing dot org, Robert Royal. The
whole Gang's here, gents. Last week we examined the Holy
(00:45):
Father urging the bishops to speak with one voice on
immigration policy. Well, this week, the United States Bishops at
their Fall meeting answered the call never say we aren't pressing.
Bishop Mark Say of El Paso, who's the chairman of
the Migration Committee, encouraged the bishops to support the migrant
(01:06):
community affected by US immigration policy under President Trump. The
committee's working on a national initiative titled you Are Not Alone.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Okay, here's what he said.
Speaker 3 (01:18):
Since January, The Trump administration has remained committed to carrying
out the president's campaign promise of mass deportations. This has
been accompanied by policy changes that are intimidating and dehumanizing
the immigrants in our midst regardless of how they came
(01:40):
to be here. As our late Holy Father Pope Francis
so often reminded us, and as Pope Leo has strongly
reiterated in these months of his papacy, acts of accompaniment
are vitally important and integral to our shared mission of
bringing hope and truth to a world desperately in need.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Father, what do you make of sites comments there, particularly
that that mention of deportations being intimidating and dehumanizing to immigrants.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
Well, I reject the premise. I do not think it
is dehumanizing to enforce law, because you're recognizing that the
person who has violated the law is a rational actor
who made a decision at one point to enter the
country illegally or to overstay a visa, and always doing
that with the knowledge that this was something that was illegal.
(02:38):
So if the law enforcement agent approaches them, they should
admit their fault and then, you know, comply with whatever
is required. Self deportation has been offered by this administration
to people. Many have taken advantage of it, and you know,
I think of the analogy. Let's you know, let's say
let's say about three hundred people decided they wanted to
(03:00):
live in the USCCB headquarters and brought mattresses and all
the rest and their luggage and said we're moving in
and we're going to stay here. Would the bishop's conference say, well,
we have to let them stay. We can't call the
police and a victim because they're coming in here. Legally,
they would never allow three hundred people to take up
residence in their headquarters. So by analogy, the whole country
(03:22):
has a right to a similar policy. Now, legal immigration
were the strengths of this country. We all come from
immigrant stock in our genealogical background. It's a great thing,
but it has to be legal. Illegal immigration is not right, Bob.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
You know, well, if immigrants or anybody else wanted to
occupy the USCCB headquarters, Father, as we learned during their
budget discussion at this meeting, half the building is empty
and they're looking for four million dollars to make up
the difference.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
So you know, they could charge rent. That's a possibility.
Speaker 1 (03:55):
But Bob, at the meeting, at the fall meeting, during
the presentation of a rather emotional four minute video that
Bishop sites played. It featured testimonials by immigrants who felt traumatized,
and you know, there were tears and it's very emotional.
The same presentation shown to Pope Leo you'll remember several
(04:15):
weeks ago that caused him to reportedly be visibly moved,
And after playing the video, the bishop had this to say.
Speaker 3 (04:24):
Allow me to state the obvious. Our immigrant brothers and sisters,
from those who are undocumented to those who are naturalized citizens,
are living in a deep state of fear. Many are
too afraid to work, send their children to school, or
(04:45):
avail themselves of the sacraments, and even those who continued
to participate in daily life do so with a dark
cloud hanging over them.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
Bob, what do you make of this political and emotional
messaging and the lack of distinction between those who are
here legally and those who aren't.
Speaker 5 (05:08):
Yeah, you know, I think this is rather typical of
the bishops and has been for a while. It goes
back I think at least ten or fifteen years I
was actually invited to speak to a committee of the
bishops about ten years ago who were looking to join
hands with more traditional Catholics to find out, you know,
how can we present our case their case about immigration.
(05:32):
And I remember saying to them at the time that
you know, you downplay the seriousness of the legal question here.
And one bishop, this was an auxiliary bishop from Adiasis
that I won't mention, said well, you know, what you're talking.
Speaker 6 (05:47):
About is like jaywalking.
Speaker 5 (05:49):
It's not all that serious a business, and so therefore
our people are integrating. And I said to him, well,
wait a minute, this is a great deal more serious
than that. This is this involves now sovereignty, all.
Speaker 6 (06:01):
Sorts of different questions.
Speaker 5 (06:02):
It's not just jaywalking. They're all kinds of other elements
that are involved here.
Speaker 6 (06:07):
No, that's said.
Speaker 5 (06:09):
Sometimes police actions like this are pretty ugly, and when
police have to go pick up a criminal somebody has
broken the law, it sometimes isn't very nice. And you
can put together a bunch of clips to make it
clear that that's the case. But just because there are
some violations of what should be the proper procedure doesn't
discredit the actual fact of what the police are doing
(06:32):
or what the Border Patrol does or what.
Speaker 6 (06:35):
ICE is doing.
Speaker 5 (06:36):
And you know, I've got to say that the Church
in general is behind the curve on this one. That
we are not in a world that is going to
be a world of open borders. It's created enormous problems
that the church is not recognized, but that many people
in many countries are.
Speaker 6 (06:51):
Beginning to recognize. At a political level.
Speaker 5 (06:53):
I think that they're going to have to come to
terms with this very soon, and the sooner the better,
because it's not going to be a pretty picture if
it goes on the way it's been going.
Speaker 1 (07:01):
Well, they don't seem to be getting the message at
all this new statement. In fact, at Bishop's Supches, Cardinal
Supches Urging condemns what he calls indiscriminate deportations, and they
added a thing about with no regard for due process. Well,
if somebody has an a visa overstay father and is
(07:22):
in violation of US code, they can be legally deported.
And the one thing you never hear, which I think
actually would help the bishop's argument and help them reach
more people, is about the criminality and abuse of the
American system by these cartels and the utter lack of
human dignity that are endured by those who are trafficked here.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
Now it's correct, I mean, it's as Bob says, this
is an emotional presentation and is designed to get people
to say, oh, you know, keep the police at home,
don't arrest anybody. Can't we all just get along? And
the answer is, if you want that policy, convince Congress
to repeal all laws regulating entry into the country. And
(08:08):
the last election showed that people don't want that. The
Bidy administration led an unsupervised inflow of people that cartels
took advantage of to traffic people in here for prostitution,
drug distribution and other things. We have these gangs from
different Latin American countries who came in here to be
part of criminal enterprises. This is what happens when you
(08:30):
have a system in which the law is ignored, and
this is therefore in need. What this is, we would
call this a wall street, a correction. Things are getting
back to what they're supposed to be. Now it's you know,
do we love immigrants illegal and legal. Of course we
do the Church. So illegal aliens who are present here
(08:51):
have every right to be taken care of by Catholic
charities to have pastoral services. I would object if it's
true that ICE is not letting priests get into the
facilities to hear confessions and say mass and communion. That's
all should be regulated. But the idea that someone who
violates our law has a right to stay here and
not be arrested, that's a revolutionary idea. And if the
(09:14):
Catholic Church wants to pursue that, okay, hire the lawyers,
station them, you know, at the ICE facilities, and try
to get them becore. But these people who have already
been had a process which judge that they needed to
be evicted. ICE knows who these people are, and they're
going after them because they're already in the system. So
this is not the way that the Catholic Church should
be advocating. They should advocate for greater legal immigration. That's
(09:38):
what we need, more people coming in legally.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
And look, I love that they're saying everyone should be
afforded human dignity. Obviously everyone should. That is a wonderful
position for the church. I do worry when the church
starts leaning though into immigration policy and characterizing in one
direction these deportations with no mention of what drove it.
I mean President Trump went out and he ran on
(10:05):
deporting illegal immigrants and he won.
Speaker 2 (10:09):
So it isn't like it was a secret.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
This is what the American people wanted and it comports
with American law. Bob, this is from the City Journal.
I'm going to read you this full excerpt because it
may explain this corporate advocacy we're seeing coming from the
Bishop's Conference and as we reported last week, really coming
from Rome as well. Total federal grants and contributions made
(10:32):
to the US Conference of Catholic Bishops and its affiliate
organizations for refugee assistance programs rose from fourteen point six
million under the first Trump administration in twenty nineteen to
one hundred and twenty two point six million in twenty
twenty two, according to audited financial statements. In just three
(10:52):
years under Biden, those grants totaled more than two hundred
million dollars. Signature federal program Preferred Communities tries to integrate
immigrants into local communities. In twenty twenty three, the US
Conference of Catholic Bishops was the top recipient of those grants,
(11:13):
garnering sixty six point five million dollars.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
Reports opened the books.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
Over three years, Catholic groups received more than one hundred
and ten million from this program alone. Bob Catholic Charities
received something like two billion dollars in twenty twenty three
in that one year. How much of this immigrant advocacy
is driven by the loss of these federal grants, which
we have to say floated the USCCB bureaucracy.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
Well, look, I wouldn't over emphasize this. I mean, it's
clear that this plays a role, and there are lots
of agencies, of course that that send back information to
the Washington headquarters here, and you know, between one thing
and another, no doubt it exerts some pressure on the
Bishop's Conference as an institute, as a conference. And I
(12:04):
would just add though that there really is throughout our bishops.
I don't know how deep this runs, but there is
a kind of a generalized sense, and I don't know
where this comes from, that somehow enforcing immigration law is immoral.
You know, we've got a new vice president and vice
(12:25):
president of the Bishop's Conference, Bishop especially Cochley is the president,
very good man, but he's in favor of accompanying the
illegal immigrants. And then Bishop Flores who's now the new
vice president, said in twenty seventeen that arresting illegals was
(12:47):
a material cooperation in an intrinsic evil. He compared it
to driving someone to an abortion clinic for an abortion.
Now you know, he's very intell He's a PhD in theology,
is a very intelligent man. Somehow, these people, I think,
have been mesmerized by this idea of accompanying the stranger,
(13:11):
because it is not an evil in say a molement,
say that we say in theology abortion is an evil
in itself. Arresting somebody who is any illegal immigrant in
the United States is not an evil in itself. In fact,
it might be a good in itself depending on the circumstances,
and people who are carrying that out ice or whatever
(13:31):
law enforcement agencies may be actually doing a good thing
for the community.
Speaker 6 (13:35):
So look, this runs deep.
Speaker 5 (13:37):
It's a combination I suppose of money and I think
a distorted view of Catholic morals that have given us
this This witch is brew that has to be examined
more careful. It needs to be examined here. And I
think Roman insta come to terms with this as well.
Speaker 1 (13:54):
Yeah yeah, well, I mean, look, you're seeing this in
Europe too. Europe is saying, wait minute, maybe we allowed
too much of this unfedered illegal immigration, and now we're
seeing the cultural clash that Benedict the sixteenth warned was
upon us and was happening in Europe, and that he
was urging. You'll remember back in two thousand and eight,
two thousand and seven that Europe needed to rediscover its roots,
(14:19):
it's Christian roots, and now you see them being imperiled. Father,
is it time for the bishops to get out of
the relocation business? I mean, for years they've basically been
paid by the federal government to relocate illegal and legal
immigrants and refugees all across the country.
Speaker 4 (14:38):
Well, yeah, I mean this is a dilemma because, I mean,
let's look at it from what it is. The Biden
administration had a policy of allowing people to enter the
country illegally. In other words, they didn't have a visa,
but they let them in, and they gave them a
document which said you have to appear at immigration court
and that could be five to ten years later. So,
in other words, it was a day fact waiving the
(14:59):
men into the country and granting them a temporary status
so once they're in government control, the government decided we're
not going to spend money ourselves and build housing and
social services and all the it's not going to be
a federal responsibility. We're going to point it or pint it.
We're going to franchise it out to private groups, including
(15:20):
the Catholic Church. No, by the way, why can't they
franchise out educational vouchers in the same way. Okay, so
American citizens who want to send their kids to non
public schools could do that. So it's okay to send
illegal aliens to Catholic facilities for resettlement, but it's not
okay to use federal dollars to help pay poor kids
who want to go to a Catholic school. Not just
(15:40):
in the side, but in other words, the Catholic Church
is doing a good thing. I'm not going to criticize
people who were involved in resettlement services because they were acting,
according to the law, for a laudable motive, which is
to help people who are poor need adjustment and you know,
language and all the rest. But the question for the
America con citizens was do we want to keep doing this? Yeah?
(16:03):
And people said no. That was part of the big
part of the election, and I don't think the bishops
should turn around till the American people know Trump is wrong.
These people have a right to stay and it doesn't
matter that they came in illegally. It does matter. If
law doesn't matter, then we might as well just basically
live in bunkers, because if there's no law, then it's
(16:24):
a free for all in society. We don't operate that way.
The American people don't want that, The Catholic Church doesn't
want that. I mean if somebody like the analogy I
said about coming into the headquarters, if people got in
there and took up residents, of course the bishops are
going to call the police. They're not going to want
to go confront who knows who living in their building illegally.
(16:44):
So we all live by law. We have to. If
you don't like the law, work to change. That's a
great thing. In the free society. You don't like laws,
elect people to change it. That's how you should operate.
Speaker 1 (16:55):
But I worry in the effort to a company anyone
who wants to come into the country. And Bishop Sites
mentioned Afghanis and Nigerians and people from all over the
world in an effort to want to accompany them. When
do you accompany the American citizens, the people in your pews,
and law enforcement who are risking their lives to protect
(17:17):
that law and execute it.
Speaker 4 (17:20):
Yeah. Well, I'll just jump back in again. The federal
government needs to be out of our lives about directing
so many things. They shouldn't allow legal aliens in. That's
what the Trump administration are doing. We shouldn't get involved
in the police actions and try to stop them because
they're acting legally. And then why don't we reduce taxes
so people can afford to do the things they want to.
(17:42):
I mean, it's so annoying to see that Catholic schools
are closing right and left in this country because of
inflation and other associated costs. This isn't how the society
should operate. We should favor private initiatives that benefit the citizenry.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Yeah, as is customary at these annual the fall meeting
at least of the USCCB, the papal nuncio, who is
the Pope's representative in the United States. He made a
statement to the bishops of the us at the start
of this gathering, Cardinal Christophe Pierre Bob urged the body
to remain faithful to Pope Francis's pastoral path and to
(18:19):
the vision of the Second Vatican Council. The Nuncio talked
a lot about the late Pope Francis and his vision.
Your thoughts, Bob on the heavy focus on the previous pontificate.
He also said something about the Vatican Two is the
key to any revolution, any updates that will happen in.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
The future, the path of the Church going forward.
Speaker 5 (18:41):
Yeah, I have to say I was really quite surprised
by this discourse that he gave to the bishops, because
when you try to understand what somebody is saying, one
of the better ways to do that is who do
they think their audience is, and what do they think
that that audience most.
Speaker 6 (18:57):
Needs to hear.
Speaker 5 (18:58):
And so our American bishop, who by and large or
Orthodox men, there's still largely in the line of John
Paula's second and Benedict, which is why they elected Archbishop Coakley.
Clearly he felt they needed to hear that Francis's vision
should continue, and no, no doubt he heard.
Speaker 6 (19:16):
He checked that with Rome, and Rome said, yeah, go
ahead with that.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
But the thing that was even more amazing was the
way he kept going back and back to Vatican two,
and as if Vatican two had predicted the moment that
we're in right now, this change of moment that it
anticipated in the rest of the world had not well.
In fact, there's been so much debate over what Vatican
two meant. This is why they need to keep going
(19:41):
back to this idea, the spirit of Vatican two, because
the documents don't seem to say what.
Speaker 6 (19:46):
The spirit allegedly is saying.
Speaker 5 (19:48):
And what we have right now is something that I
think is much different, much different than that that particular
reading of Vatican two, going all the.
Speaker 6 (19:56):
Way back to shortly after it closed.
Speaker 5 (19:58):
We are really in a different world, but it's not
the one that points back to this kind of open
world in which we're supposed to build bridges and not fences.
I think it's time to start building some fences, and
not only in the secular world, but in the church
as well. We need to get back to the point
where we have a clear definition of what it is
(20:18):
to be inside the church and outside the church, what
actually belongs to the faith and doesn't.
Speaker 6 (20:24):
Belong to the faith.
Speaker 5 (20:26):
Look, it will change things that happen some people will leave,
some people will be attracted. But the Church can only
continue to exist if it has that sort of clarity
about what it is, and what it is cannot simply
be a kind of a more pious version of what's
going in the secular world.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Bob, Wow, it's time for the church to build fences.
Bob Royle, I'm putting that on my Bumpersire Father, that's.
Speaker 6 (20:51):
A patent to saying for Noah.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
It's a great line.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
But Father does speak to this confusion. I mean, I
don't know why they keep talking about the spirit of
Vatican two. Since Vatikan two, we have less people in
the pews, less people ordain, less people baptized, less people
were returning to the sacraments, and as Bob referenced, a
general confusion about the essences and foundational beliefs of the faith.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Well, you know that confusion is why Saint John Paul
the second issue the Catechism of the Catholic Church. So
if you know the Nuncio wants to people go back
to Vatican two and understand it in the contemporary scene. Well,
John Paul the second was that Vatican two he said,
we need a catechism. The bishops of the world. The
greed he issued. The Categins is one of the most
(21:43):
important documents that was issued in the post Concilier period.
And what was it. It's exactly what Bob was saying.
It was establishing this is what we believe, this is
what we don't believe. This is why we believe it,
this is why we don't believe these other things. I
was distressed because to identify Poe frien Ansis's policies with
Vatican two forgets that, in fact Pop Francis contradicted Vatican
(22:06):
two in a few things. Their Senate of Bishops was
established by the Second Vatican Council. It never said that
lay people should be added as voting members. That's what
Pope Francis did. VATICANU never said you should bless same
sex couples, which is what Post Francis did. Vadigan who
never said that people divorced and remarried to receive Holy communion,
(22:27):
That's what Pop Francis did. Vadigan TU never said that
God willed all religions, That's what Pop Francis signed a
document stating it, and then he said later he meant
God's passive will, but still he's identifying the will of
God with the existence of non Christian religions. We believe
that Jesus Christ fulfilled the promise made to Israel and
that there's one faith based precisely on the revelation God
(22:50):
made through Christ. We don't accept Buddhism and other religions
as being alternate, valuable ways that God wants people to act. No,
God wants people to be burt convert to come to
the Catholic religion. So yeah, I think that what the
Nunzia was trying to say is and I'm sure this
was of course approved by the Roman authorities, which is
(23:11):
the American hierarchy has not shown enough enthusiasm for the
heritage of Pope Francis. They better get in line because
otherwise we're going to accuse them of being unfaithful to
the Second Vatican Council, to which I would say, ex eminence.
Here's Academy of Catholic Church. Show me where the things
that Pope France has innovated are in that book, because
they're not.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
M Wow, We're going to move on because this is
something we've been covering for weeks and it speaks to
this this battle over the traditional liturgy and even traditional
practices across the United States. The Diocese of Charlotte once again,
Bishop Michael Martin announced he will ban the use of
all altar rails for the reception of Holy Communion in
(23:55):
his diocese beginning the first Sunday of Advent. Father, I'll
start with you on this again. Can a bishop do
this canonically? I thought the faithful couldn't be kept from
kneeling if they wish to receive that way.
Speaker 4 (24:09):
Well, a couple of precisions. First is, we don't know
about this because one of the pastors made an announcement
about this decree. Company the decree has not been published,
so the canon laura I say, I won't comment on
a diosin legislation unless I read it. But let's presume
that it's accurate. The bishop is not forbidding people to
kneel for communion. He's simply not allowing them to have
(24:31):
something to kneel down at an ultra rail or a predieu.
It is you could say, I think you make canonical case.
The bishop has the right as the local ordinary to
regulate the arrangement of his churches. In other words, the
liturgical appointments he has a right to do it, but
that right is also can be contested once the decree
(24:55):
is issued by late people saying you're depriving us of
the right to receive union kneeling in a way that
is convenient for us. I mean, think about an eighty
year old grandma who wants to receive communion kneeling, And
now you're telling you we're gonna the altra rail can't
be used, so we're going to go in the middle
aisle and you got to kneel down on the ground,
find your way to the floor. Granted, what kind of
(25:15):
charity is that? And I think it's it's certainly not
the mind of the legislator. Now let's get back also
to reality. Has any pope ever said that altar rails
are a bad thing and need to be removed? Never heard?
My goodness is so incredible.
Speaker 2 (25:35):
Why are we wasting time with this stuff? Okay?
Speaker 1 (25:38):
Why are they wasting time with the ink to write
this kind of mandate and directive?
Speaker 2 (25:44):
It makes no sense to me. Bob.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Meanwhile, in an almost comical counter story, okay, in Germany,
a priest conducted a Halloween service dressed in a Dracula costume.
Complete with artificial fog, and he emerged from a coffin.
Very is, Bob, why are these bishops so worried about
tradition and grandma and twenty and eighteen year old kids
(26:07):
kneeling when this nonsense is going on.
Speaker 5 (26:10):
It's because they need to build more walls, which I
forgat you know, you alter rail, it's kind of a wall,
you know, actually on that one, just to start there
for a second, this really is an attempt to erase
the difference between the profane and the set and the sacred,
(26:34):
you know, I mean there's always been a kind of
a sacred space in the ancient temple in Israel and
most religions.
Speaker 6 (26:39):
And this really I see this.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
We've talked about this before, but I really see this
as like this an attempt to make us the mass
is just kind of all of us getting together and
you know, having a nice time together. I Mean, one
of the things people try to do is to go
back and figure out what was the original last separate, like, well,
whatever it was that the apostles weren't standing line and
you know, receiving community. We know we can say that
(27:03):
for sure, but look, these two things are related. You're
quite right, because in one way we're breaking down the
idea of the sacred some sacred space and some you know,
in some of the legitimate Catholic rights, like in the
Eastern Byzantine rights, there actually is a screen, right, an
i kinographic screen between you know, the the altar and
the and the people. And I think that it's one
(27:26):
thing for a bishop and go out on a limb
like this. I really wish our bishops would get together
about it. It's not a good thing for a bishop's
conference to have to decide things like this, but certainly
in the United States we should have some kind of
uniform acceptance of maybe a couple of different things that
you can do. But a guy popping out of a coffin,
I think if I were the bishop of that diocese,
(27:48):
I would have had, you know, some medics right after that,
right to pick him up and take him to some
place and get him some help, because I mean, what
the world is? How does this happen? And the one
Holy Roman Catholic and Apostology.
Speaker 2 (28:03):
Did you see those pictures father of the guy in
the drag kalla get up?
Speaker 4 (28:06):
Yeah? I did. And for me, this is a symbol
of what the Catholic Church has done in Germany, which
is they've rejected revealed religion and entered the popularity contest
to get views on the internet. This is like the
priest I saw recently who dressed up in a rapper's outfit,
you know, with the heavy gold fake gold chain and
(28:29):
the hat and the glasses, and he was rapping during Mass.
In other words, you know, rhymed poetry.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
Steelenloudnsa pete fakundat allen.
Speaker 4 (28:42):
This is absurd this and you know what it reveals
to is a theological poverty that the act of worship
is essentially an entertainment forum. And people no longer liked
the old entertainment we gave them when we had mass,
so now we're going to do it, was gonna substitute
it with other things. And you just say to yourself, Father,
did Jesus Christ come down into the world so that
(29:05):
his priests would be a B level version of Dracula movies?
Of course not. This is absurd. This is this is sad,
and it's just the spiritual rot in Germany is so
deep when these kind of things happen. And then you know,
Bob says, the guys needs needs a medic. Maybe he does,
(29:26):
or maybe he simply needs a b issue who says, no,
we're here to promote religion, not entertainment.
Speaker 1 (29:32):
Yeah, or in Exorcist, Oh yeah, well maybe that too.
And father, don't don't insult Dracula movies. You know, I
had Bela Lugosi's granddaughter on a few weeks ago. Bela
Lugosi was a faithful Catholic who served Blessed Karl during
the war at Mass. So you know, sometimes Dracula is
more than some of these people.
Speaker 4 (29:52):
Hold on, Raymond, I love Dracula movies. I love Frankenstein,
you know. But the thing is.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
That, but that's not what church is all about, right,
you know what I'm offering the sacraments.
Speaker 2 (30:01):
I agree.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Okay, some possible good news, Bob, you flagged this force.
Pope Lio has announced a special consistory of cardinals at
the top of January. We don't have details on why
they're meeting. But first of all, Bob, what is a
consistory of cardinals? A lot of people here that term.
They don't know what you're talking about. And why is
this different from Pope Francis.
Speaker 5 (30:22):
Well, I mean, broadly speaking, a consistory the cardinals who
were kind of advisors to the Holy Father at least
in theory ideally, you know, they come together in Rome.
He gathers them together in Rome and they get to
sit down and talk through some questions with one another.
It was a strange thing about the papacy of Pope
Francis that he after the first I think it was
(30:45):
only a first consistory that he had where Cardinal Casper
spoke about what became kind of the amorous Laticia line
of some people being able to receive Holy Communion who
were divorced without having an annulment. And I think after
the disappointment that the cardinals didn't get together behind Cardinal
(31:05):
Casper and along with Poe Francis, but Francis didn't really
convene consistency consistories like that again, right, and the criticism
was often made and we made it, the three of
us made it many times. Is that what that did
is that the cardinals didn't.
Speaker 6 (31:19):
Really know one another.
Speaker 5 (31:21):
They didn't get a chance as a body to advise
the pope very much. And so this is a departure.
As much as Leo has talked about wanting to follow
in the line of Poe Francis one of his first
official acts. And this year, you know, as we said,
this is a jubilee year, so his schedule is choc
a block with one event after another after another that's
(31:42):
been scheduled for years. And so in the first week
after the Jubilee year ends, he's got scheduled to try
to get all the cardinals as many as possible or
from around the world to Rome with him to talk
about what we don't know, as you rightly say, but
already just to bring them together and to consult with him.
(32:02):
That's kind of a sonotyl church that I could applaud.
Speaker 2 (32:07):
Father.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
This is it is interesting my thought when I read
it and read the several reports where this is covered,
it did seem to me this may be the actual
beginning of Pope Leo's reign, where he begins to for
the first time sort of be his own man, without
the specter of Pope Francis that has really covered him
(32:32):
throughout this Jubilee year that, as Bob said, was already
largely set in motion. The man is kind of walking
through the steps that we might have seen Pope Francis
walk through.
Speaker 4 (32:41):
Well, we'll find out. You know, I can say that
he didn't observe Pope Francis's dress, manner of dressing his
you know his he's used. He's done a lot more
of the formalities of John Paul the second in Benedict,
so he can declare himself when he wants. He's also
taken days off with Leo. Pope Ranis never did. Now
(33:01):
just a little. The Pope Francis had a couple more
consistories and the last one though, no, you aren't allowed
to approach the mic and speak on your own. You
have to be called, and you have to submit your
comments ahead of time and all. It was very controlled.
In fact, it was it was stage managed, so to say.
So my first thing is to find out will the
(33:22):
Cardinals get an open mic and more than two minutes
to speak? If they're giving five minutes to speak, then
we're going to have some serious conversation, you know. I mean,
if you can do a podcast for forty minutes with
three guys, why can't Why can't think the Cardinals do
something similar, you know, designate someone to represent different groups
from different languages or people whatever. But the real thing
(33:44):
for me is going to be, is this going to
be a rah rah session to say everything, Pope Francis,
did we have to endorse or will this be a truly,
you know, candid and realistic assessment of where the Catholic
Church is today, because we have open rep rebellion in
the Catholic Church, particularly on moral and doctrinal questions that
(34:05):
cannot be allowed to go unaddressed because if they if
they're not addressed, we're gonna have more chaos. And this
is particularly in matters of sexuality, the ordination of women,
and then the whole question of do lay people share
in governance in the church, which is now you know,
we have women and lay people being given roles in
the Roman Cury which never were given before. And this
(34:28):
is all part of Pot Francis's vision of accompaniment, which
means everybody has a say in how the church is governed.
That has to be addressed.
Speaker 1 (34:36):
Okay, for the record, Bob Royle, it's time to build walls.
Father Gerald Murray, open, Mike Knight for the cardinals.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
I got it.
Speaker 1 (34:45):
I'm gonna write the I'm creating these bumper stickers.
Speaker 2 (34:47):
I'm gonna sell them everywhere, Okay.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
In perhaps another sign of hope, Millennials and gen Zers,
we learn, are now more likely to attend church than
their parents, acording to new research released by BARNA the
Barner Group. These findings show a marked reversal of decades
long trends that where we saw younger folks leaving church
attendants behind, Millennials and members of Gen Z have now
(35:14):
overtaken boomers and elders as the most frequent churchgoers. According
to Berna's stats, the average Gen Z Christian now attends
services one point nine weekends per month, Millennials one point
eight times, a steady increase for both groups since the pandemic. Father,
(35:36):
why are we seeing this, what is driving it?
Speaker 2 (35:40):
And are you seeing this in your own parish?
Speaker 4 (35:43):
Well, when I see these statistics, I do wonder, because yes,
I do see young people coming to church, but not
in the numbers I remember when I was a kid
back in the nineteen sixties and seventies. So you know,
just the attendant statistics are taken every year in all
the dioceses of the country, so we know who's going
to church who isn't. Now the surveys I won't. I
(36:05):
haven't done this, you know, study about their methodology, but
I will say this as the Charlie Kirk murder and
subsequent things have revealed, young people are hungry for truth
and authenticity. They're tired of the fake woke movement in
this country. They're tired of, you know, the religion of
balloons and cake. They want something that's going to address
(36:27):
questions of sin, salvation, how do I live a happy life?
So I'm not surprised that that's happening. But you know
the question is are we offering the authentic Catholic version
of life to them or are they going to be
simply going along and saying, you know, don't worry of
what you're doing in life. You know God's and God's
the God of accompaniment. The word is conversion. The word
(36:51):
is adhesion or coherence. That's what we need to teach,
not walk with us and will smile at each other. Yeah, Bob.
Speaker 1 (36:59):
Any thing to add there about why these young people
are coming forward and what they're seeking.
Speaker 5 (37:04):
Well, I think it's probably several different things. I wouldn't
I wouldn't put too much energy behind this thinking that
we've got a sea change coming. Maybe we do, and
I hope we do, but these things kind of go cyclical.
Speaker 6 (37:18):
I know we all remember it.
Speaker 5 (37:19):
Back in the nineteen eighties, there was a Catholic moment,
according to our friend Richard House, and there was there
was there was a bump up in Catholicism at the time,
and then it kind of faded away in the nineties
and the two thousands.
Speaker 6 (37:32):
I mean, these are good signs. Father.
Speaker 5 (37:34):
I think is exactly right that the deepest motivation probably
is these are kids who are not haven't there's nothing
even for them to rebel against. They haven't even seen
a church that's a substantial church, and so when they
do come in contact with it, and it's something different
from the lack of substance that exists in the society
(37:55):
as a whole. I mean, I look back at Jordan Peterson.
Why was Jordan Peterson, you know, so so effective. I
mean he's brilliant. Obviously he knew how to speak to
young people. But it wasn't only that he presented them
with something solid. You know, get up in the morning,
put your shoulders back, don't slatch you around, shake hands
with people, look them in the I mean, you know,
(38:16):
engage the world, be a human being in the well.
Speaker 2 (38:20):
This is what we've talked about for years and it's
a pity. And look, I talk. I travel a lot.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I was just in Nashville, I was just in Texas,
I was just out in California. When you see the
young people pouring and packing into these churches, they're going
to traditional services. They're looking for traditional, solid structure.
Speaker 2 (38:39):
Bob. That's what Jordan Peterson gave them, structure.
Speaker 1 (38:42):
And I hate to say it, this is the rigidity
that Pope Francis tried to drive out of Catholic worship.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
This is exactly what the young people are looking for.
They're looking for.
Speaker 1 (38:52):
Something solid and a form and a structure in a
world of chaos and fluidity. And I don't know why
we're removing the foundations and the structure that the biggest
possible group of new Catholics are seriously craving.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Father.
Speaker 6 (39:09):
Well, you know, I would add on this too.
Speaker 5 (39:11):
We've had a lot of new initiatives in the church,
especially here in the United States, you know, eucharistic congresses,
all sorts of things that have been developing. I talked
to young people who are on secular campuses where their
campus ministries are really really right good. You know, this
is something different than existed in the past. So look
(39:31):
wherever we are, we build up this little bit and
you know, next thing, you know, all of a sudden
there's a wave of kind of conversions, of a wave
of young people coming into the church. I mean, we
should never despair of the power of the Holy Spirit.
When the Holy Spirit is allowed to be presented to
people like this. They're hungry for something, and we might
as well give them the best thing of all, which
(39:52):
is the Eucharist and the faith that will not only
help them in this life, but in eternity.
Speaker 2 (39:57):
Father, you want to add any last one.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Well, I live in the land of mayor elect Ma'm
Danny Okay, who was elected by the younger generation and
the combination of other factors including South Asian voters and
the like. But I think we're seeing, you know, we're
seeing a different split in the country, which is where
where there's less influence of elite institutions such as Ivy
(40:22):
League schools and the federal government. Uh, there's much more
open spirit. I mean, I Texas a and m I
hear one of the best Catholic centers from the whole country,
and they have lots and lots of kids going there.
I think that's where the spirit of religion is appreciated
and taken for, you know, in the right sense. But look,
God is good. It only takes a couple of saints
(40:45):
to revolutionize a diocese or a country. I mean, Saint
Charles Borromeo is still talked about in Milan, you know,
five centuries later, because he was a holy bishop. And
you know, we have the same thing in our country
that we have people who are great. Mother Teresa Calcutt
is probably the only woman that every single American could
recognize who she is if you said it. And she
(41:07):
was a Catholic noun who take care of port people
in far distrom India. So I don't know, God acts
in ways that are mysterious, thank God, because we mess
it up all the time.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Well, and the Mandani, the wave you've seen in New York,
I'm going to argue, Father, hold me to this in
a few years. That will create a cauldron of confusion
and misery that's going to drive people into your parish
and others like it.
Speaker 2 (41:31):
Watch just watch it, inevited.
Speaker 1 (41:34):
When there's chaos and confusion, the church thrives and persecution
and you might get all.
Speaker 2 (41:39):
Of that in New York City.
Speaker 1 (41:41):
I hate to say, Father, I need you both to
weigh in on this. This week and openly gay TV
anchor is returning to the church after twenty five years.
He credits Pope Francis's legacy of inclusion and the outreach
of Jesuit Father James Martin for his return. This is
thirty eight year old Geo Benitez, known from ABC's Good
(42:03):
Morning America program, who's openly gay. He's married to a man,
received the sacrament of confirmation at Manhattan's Church of Saint
Paul the Apostle, which is well known for its LGBTQ ministry.
Speaker 2 (42:16):
Father, your thoughts on this?
Speaker 1 (42:19):
What does canon law say about the reception of the
sacraments in a case like this?
Speaker 4 (42:23):
No, this is a scandalous event that should never have happened.
Mister Geo Benitez is in a so called same sex marriage,
which means he either went to a religion that agrees
with that a Protestant church, or to a civil ceremony,
and is now claiming that he's married to a man. Okay,
(42:47):
that is an open rejection of Catholic doctrine about the
nature of marriage. If he sincerely thinks he has a husband.
Then he is rebelling against the very faith he now
claims he's returning to. In addition, the same sex couple
engages in sexual activity, that's the purpose of having that
same sex relationship. The Church does not bless sodomy. This
(43:11):
is quite clear. This is why Pot Francis's activity and
saying you can bless same sex couples with so scandalous
and wrong. It needs to be stopped. Now we're having
a situation in which priests such as Father Martin and
the priests at that parish are saying, well, Post Francis said,
we can bless couples, and you know, we have an
inclusive view. The inclusive view is amnesia about what Jesus taught.
(43:35):
You know, Jesus did not endorse sodomy. It's condemned in
the Bible, it's condemned in natural law. So someone who
is publicly identifying themselves as engaging in that behavior and
pretends he's married to a man, he cannot be confirmed
in the Catholic Church because he is basically what we
would say in canon law, publicly defiant against the faith.
(43:57):
So this is a scandal. This is very, very wrong.
Speaker 1 (44:01):
Bob Bishop Joseph Strickland, who is a bishop emeritus, was
at the bishop's conference this week. He got up in
the middle of the conference and said, so long as
we're talking about doctrine, I think we as a body
need to talk about this event that took place in
New York, the one we just described. And you know,
he thought it was scandalous. The bishops just ignored him.
(44:23):
They just went on, thank you, Bishop, and moved on
and continued with business.
Speaker 2 (44:27):
Your reaction to that and this story.
Speaker 5 (44:32):
Poor Bishop Strickland, I mean, he was brave enough to
stand up. I mean he obviously it's pursuona on grata
in several quarters.
Speaker 6 (44:39):
But look at what this is the bishops.
Speaker 5 (44:44):
I think a large number of our bishops in the
United States, for all the problems that we know exists
in the church, probably agreed with him. They aren't willing
to stand up in public and say that they're supportive
of him.
Speaker 6 (44:55):
And why well, they would have to cross.
Speaker 5 (44:57):
Swords with the Jesuits who have a over James Martin,
who is a Jesuit priest. They would also have to
implicitly be looking to Pope Leo, who met with Father
Martin shortly after he was elected, and according to Father
Martin said, you know, keep doing what you're doing.
Speaker 6 (45:14):
And what he's doing is creating confusion like.
Speaker 5 (45:17):
This, and you know, these are Salami tactics. Every time
there's a story like this that appears, it makes it
look one more time like the church is moving in
the direction of accepting homosexual activity, even though the highest
authorities say, oh, no, no, no, that's not what we're doing.
We're just accompanying people. You know, we're not blessing couples,
We're blessing individuals. Look, the world is understanding what the
(45:40):
message is here. And I don't know how much longer
we do this can go on. At some point there's
going to be an explosion. It will not get better.
Ignoring it will not make it go away, and ignoring
it will only make it turn it into a more
and more difficult decision to make when it comes to
a crisis point. And shame on our bishops. Shame on
(46:02):
our bishops. They should do something, perhaps not even as
a group, but they certainly were willing to stand up
when when Cardinal Superch was willing to give an award
to Senator Durbin in Illinois for his pro immigration work.
We need some kind of activity on the part of
our bishops, public activity to say no, this sort of
(46:24):
thing cannot take place. This is not even this is
not even something that Fiducia Suplicans says is okay. It
actually violates what we're told Fiducia Suplicans allows. So it's
not only scandalous to me, this is a further step
into a realm that is going to destroy whatever remains of.
Speaker 6 (46:47):
The Church's teaching about LGBT.
Speaker 1 (46:50):
We've been hearing a lot about anti Semitism in the
news of late given the controversy over Israel's war against
Thomas Tucker Carlson featuring Nick Fuinte on his show, and
the sixtieth anniversary of the landmark Vatican two document Nostra Atate.
There was a Benedictine College history professor, Richard Crane, who
(47:11):
said the following.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
He said, it is a disturbing time.
Speaker 1 (47:15):
To live in, not just because of the resurgence of
anti Semitism, but the extent to which this is poisoned
at least elements of the Catholic faithful. Father your thoughts
on this alleged resurgence of anti Semitism, particularly in Catholic circles.
Speaker 4 (47:33):
Do you see this after the Nazi killing of seven
million Jews. If we in the West are not conscious
of the fact that there are people who want to
do that again, then we are amnesiacs and moral cowards.
We have to confront the group of people who hate
Jews want to wipe Israel off the map. And now
(47:54):
we have the Islamic fanatics who join with the traditional
anti Semites and blame everything on the Jews. You know, no,
I look, I think in the fact most Catholics are
not anti Semitic. I think Nick Frents is kind of
a nut on the on the fringe, and I hope
he changes his mind, but we should have nothing to do.
(48:15):
The insinuation is also the conservative move in the United
States has always been anti Semitic. It's not only coming
to the surface. I reject that completely, and I don't
think that Tucker Carlson did a good thing and others
trying to defend him this. Nick fwent As is a
Nazi fanatical apologist. I don't accept that kind of person
in any civil discourse.
Speaker 1 (48:36):
Bob is a journalist and a writer and thinker on
this scene for a long time, your thoughts on the
conflagration of hostility or upsetment over Israel's foreign policy decisions
with anti Semitism, we are seeing kind of a melding here.
Speaker 6 (48:55):
Yeah, it's a strange thing.
Speaker 5 (48:56):
As many people have said that once you put the
two words together, the Jews, they're already in dangerous territory,
as if every Jew is the same and it's all
an international conspiracy or whatnot. Look, it's possible to criticize
what Israel jating Gaza. I myself think that they have
a right to defend themselves, and I myself feel that
(49:18):
although I'm a supporter of Israel, that they may have
gone too far in certain ways. But it's not my decision.
They know the threat that they're facing there. But the
way that this demonic, slithering anti Semitism has just come
out of the sewer and hooked itself onto this debate
about Israel, to me is something diabolical. I mean, we
(49:40):
have to begin from the point that we have as Catholics,
we have an unshakable connection to Israel, the true Israel,
because the true Israel.
Speaker 6 (49:50):
Is what gave us Jesus.
Speaker 5 (49:51):
Jesus is the fulfillment of the promises to Israel, as
Father said earlier in this show, and that we can't
cannot be an anti semit As. I think it was
Paul six said spiritually, we are all semis We are
all part of that religion that began with Abraham and
that continued through the Jewish people and now is embodied
(50:13):
in the Church itself. The Church has become a kind
of a fulfillment of the Jewish people. And so the
way that this hooks onto Conservatism is very, very strange.
I mean, we all recalled. It was Bill Buckley, the
editor of National Review, who back in the nineteen fifties
and sixties when some of this started to emerge, made
very clear, as a Catholic and as a conservative in
(50:35):
America that this was not going to be part of
the respectable right in the United States. And somehow it
keeps coming back and coming back, and I think it's
because it has an evil spiritual origin. We must stop it.
And I don't know what motivated Tucker Carlson to give
a platform to this young man who is so deeply,
(50:56):
deeply disturbed and speaking evil.
Speaker 2 (51:00):
I got to end with this. Father.
Speaker 1 (51:02):
The Church's highest trial court, the Roman Rota, has ruled
in favor of an American priest who sued over the
release of his name in a so called credibly accused
clergy list. In a November ninth article in La Republica,
an unnamed pre successfully brought a claim for defamation before
(51:22):
the Rohoters Tribunal under the norms of Canon two twenty
of the Code of Canon Law, which forbids quote the
illegitimate harm of a person's good reputation? Father, what are
those canons explicitly say? What's meant by illegitimate harm?
Speaker 4 (51:38):
Yeah? Well, this is a debated point in canon law,
because priests who are accused of a crime have a
right to self defense. They have a right that their
good name not be impugned, meaning that the fact that
the accusation has been given means that they are treated
(51:59):
by the church as if they're guilty. But is an
indictment in a civil court or a criminal court. Is
an indictment a harm to someone's reputation? You could say,
in one sense, maybe, but the whole legal system depends
on the fact that we are now going to submit
that person to a process in which he's given every
(52:21):
opportunity to defend his name and he doesn't have to
prove his innocence, you know, the state has to prove
his guilt. So in the Catholic Church they had to say,
rather than conduct trials so that people's names can people
can be cleared of acute accusations, they simply say, well,
this man has been accused, and we're going to put
(52:42):
the name out there. This has to often do with
people who are dead, in other words, accusation against dead priests,
and then they put them out there. Now it's a
difficult question because for me, if someone's indicted, that's not
a harm to their reputation. That's if you want to
live in a free system with a legal system, you
have to submit to its claims. If you don't like it,
(53:03):
get out of the country. But you're never going to
find a better system, in my view, to combine the
rights of people to be considered innocent and the rights
of victims and the state to prosecute criminals and people
cause harm. So I'm waiting to see how this it
plays out. Because there is no legal standard for the
definition what does it mean to be credibly accused? I
(53:24):
was never happy with that. I think it much be
better to say this man is now subject to a
prosecution and then don't leave that open, finish the trial
and then determine guilty or innocence. So but this is
again we talked about a lot. Modern standards of justice
are not being infect in canonical criminal procedures. They go
(53:44):
on these ancient ways of doing things where everything's hidden,
and then the authority invents a term like credibly accused.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
No, that's not how it should be. Okay, POSSI. We
will leave it there. Thank you both for your time.
Grateful to you all as always. If you want more
of the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse, subscribe to the Arroyo
Grande channel on YouTube or follow our podcast wherever you
get yours on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray
Until the Posse rides again, Gang, stay the course, follow
(54:15):
the light on Raymond Arroyo.
Speaker 2 (54:16):
We'll see you next time.
Speaker 1 (54:19):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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