May 2, 2025 • 43 mins
An Arroyo Grande Series with the Conclave Crew, Raymond Arroyo, Fr. Gerald Murray, Priest and Canon Lawyer, and Robert Royal, Editor and Chief of the CatholicThing.Org delve into the hidden factors that will shape the election of the next Pope.
Recorded in Rome, they provide unique insights into the real work of the Conclave and what they’ve seen first hand.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What are the real factors that shape the next pope
and the selection of the pope? The Conclave Crew has answers.
Stay with us. Welcome to an Arroyo Grande brand news series,
The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition. We're all here in Rome.
We're going to answer your questions. Let's convene the crew.
(00:22):
Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing
dot org, and I'm Mariam ad Arroyo. This is the
first in an Arroyo Grande series. Go subscribe to the
Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify of course on
YouTube at a Royo Grande Show and turn on those notifications.
(00:44):
We don't want you to miss an episode of this.
Each episode will bring you the latest from the Conclave.
And I think you're going to be impressed by what
you hear. These gentlemen and I have been covering this
literally for decades, and you'll hear insights and I think
elements of this conclave in what shapes it you may
never have considered before. As the cardinals said about the
business of selecting the new Pope, where is the church now.
(01:06):
Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for a moment, Jens,
I mean John Paul was an apostle who traveled the
whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator. How will
Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're about to
watch be elected Pope, Bob will start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,
cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man
to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because
we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,
I mean a world class theologian who will be read
for centuries. With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were
getting was a reformer. That was the term that was
(01:47):
often used about him, and in fact, the first biography
by Austin Ivory was called The Great Reformer.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, well, we still have with.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters, the
matters of sexual abuse and order within the church. So
if you think about what the next leader of the
church ought to be, of course he ought to be
a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of Jesus Christ.
But somebody who can carry out those other functions that
(02:18):
are sort of governing functions. They're not just theological and
spiritual matters. The church is badly in need of a
rudder right now, and it needs one that is conceptual,
but I think it's one that's also practical.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago
when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and
even Cardinal George Pell and others said, this is going
to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to
the sexual abuse in the church. He'll reform the couria,
the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things,
(02:52):
Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
He did some things to effect change, but in the
end nothing really happened in terms of and improvement. He
appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the Secretariat
of the Economy as it's called. It was a new
department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found
many assets money that was being held by individual departments
(03:15):
in the Vatican, which is the way they used to
do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted
to centralize investments so that they could make money on
this He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such
as rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a
lot of toes, and the Pope didn't back pell, so
that all went to the wayside.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Sex abuse.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
The Pope said zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishop Zanketta,
who was convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminarians.
He protected Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits,
and he's been accused by many many nuns of having
committed sexual abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director.
(03:58):
So there are lots ofdictions. He did issue a reform
of the Roman Curia, but in my opinion, made it
more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think
it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an
agenda needing to be done.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
One of the things that again this episode sort of
focused on the factors that will shape the choice of
the next pope. How much of that do you think
will factor in the finances? The sex abuse and the
bureaucracy that is really well. Our colleague get Pentent told
us today he ran into somebody's vaticant employee. He said,
(04:35):
how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And
the man told him free, I feel free. That tells
us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play
in the minds of these electors.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, we could hope that it will play a lot
in their minds, But as we've said in other places
during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear
that the cardinals who are going to have to make
the decision or as aware of the the challenges facing
the church as say people like us are who follow
it on a regular basis. Now they can't help but
be aware of the financial problem because that's been announced
(05:09):
that you know, it has a huge, huge deficit in
terms of the retirement funds for the Vatican employees.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
The Peters pencils is very much down.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
You can see that they're trying to use every possibility
during this jubilee year of collecting six zeros here, seven
yuros there, because it's just the operating fund is also
very far down, and.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
They were all briefed on this the other day in
their private meeting. We should tell people.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably
responsible human being is going to take that very seriously,
because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all
the other things start to be put in jeopardy. The
business with the cleaning up of the sexual matters. I
don't know how much they know about that. Maybe they
(05:58):
think that the documents themselves have all this. But there's
a lot to be done on a practical nature. As
I said earlier, that the next the next pope is
really going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We
heard a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there
are special deals. There's kind of what people call in
the secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower
(06:18):
level are are slapped with fines and with with penalties,
and then people like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father
Marco Rupnik goes on as merry way. So look, there's
much to be done here, and let's hope that these
people look very very closely at those questions.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Father, your thoughts on this, How how large will these
issues loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're
hearing this week. You know, we spoke to Cardinal Muller,
We've spoken to others. There seems to be a sentimentality
almost in these in these meetings where they keep harkening
back to some imagined synodal fantasy land that that Pope
(06:57):
Frances envisioned or was about to implement. Speak to all
of that.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things
are important, and they would seem to indicate we need
a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more
than that, who has a backbone and is able to
make decisions. I know a lot of smart people who
can analyze a problem, but if you told them time
to solve it, they would run out of the room
and they say, that's not my job. I'm here just
(07:24):
to observe. Now, we need somebody who's not an observer
on what's happening in the Vatican. In the church and
the other hand, the job description of the pope is
not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the Gospel and guiding
the flock. So you know, guiding the flock means governing.
It means using the pastoral staff to guide the flock
to go to this pasture and avoid that rocky ground.
(07:46):
So that means teaching the truth and enforcing the doctrinal
limitations in the church. You know, part of the problem
and this pontificate is that people who contradicted the teaching
of the Church were put forward the way you just
for instance, a naval ship has not simply just put
an exos set missile through the side of it. It's
to have the crew abandon ship by not knowing what
(08:08):
their jobs are, not wanting to do them. And I
think the same thing applies in the Church. We have
to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Well look in the coming days. And part of the
reason I wanted to do this series is because I
want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually
happening here in Rome. And many people think, well, it's
the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the
Sistine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.
But we know the real business of this conclave, choosing
(08:37):
a pope, has already begun. And that's during these general
Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and
thirty three electors gathered here. Bob speak to how well
these men know each other and how their ignorance of
one another, as well as their ignorance of the diocese
(08:58):
is that these men have control over or dominion over
how that will influence the ultimate selection here.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
You know, a lot of people are worried that because
Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors that is
going to be following directly in his line, and of
course some other people that he appointed are very very
close to what he tried to do with his papacy.
The other is the ones that we talk about coming
from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.
(09:26):
If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia where there
are five thousand Catholics and you just got appointed because
the Holy Father happened to see you last week and
he liked he or you're from Tonga, you're from one
of these other small countries. That really changes things in
the way that you don't really know the other people.
You haven't been involved in working at the level with
other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international
(09:49):
affairs or political matters.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So they've got to get to know one another in these.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Basically seven days, ten days to whatever it is between
now and the time they have to start voting, and
that's really not the best circumstances in which to get
to know somebody, because everybody is sort of eyeing one another.
It's like a pressure cooker. I mean, the spirit involves
itself in these decisions, but you really, very quickly have
(10:15):
to kind of get a sense of who it is
around me, who looks popular, and you know what kind
of things are they pushing? You know, how can I
rely on them to deliver on the things that they're
saying that they're going to do. To do this in
just a matter of a few days or even a
week or so, it's not the best circumstances, but let's
just hope that the process goes as well as it
(10:36):
possibly can given what it's been built up to over
the last dozen years.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And Father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And
over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclaves.
The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all
the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,
where these cardinals meet each other around the table or
in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six
(11:00):
of them, and that's where you really get an exchange
of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Work is important, but socializing is very important, you know
what I mean. Another, it's one thing that's going to
the boss's office and the boss that hear your task,
go away and then go to the lunch room or
the water cool and say, well, how does this place
operate and what am I supposed to do? And I
think a lot of the College of Cardinals, you know,
Number one, they saw the Pope rarely because they were
(11:30):
rarely called to Rome. And then secondly they then don't
know each other because the Pope did not like having
these general meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the
reason was that they had one at the beginning of
the Pontific in which some of the cardinals told the
Pope they didn't agree with the Pope's ideas.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
So you know it really the Pope had the idea.
Is sad to say that.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You know, it's like meeting the Queen of England. You're
there to listen, not to talk unless the queen asked
you to talk. And I think but the Pope he
wanted to kind of go in a direction. The issue
back then was communion for divorce and remarried, and there
were contradictions by other cardinals, which I think is healthy
and good. And you know, by the way Benedict and
John pol the second had a much more open style.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going
to happen, where people are going to listen to each
other for the first time and kind of judge a man.
The old system had had a lot of virtues the
people who became cardinals, and the old system with those
who worked in the Roman curia for a long time
or those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese.
You occasionally had nuncios and ambassadors, but they were also
(12:40):
kind of Roman hands. So you had the people whose
talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,
La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people
who knew how the Vatican work.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Now, the Vatican.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Basically has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,
you know, go here one day, go there the next.
The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not
a cardinal. The archbisip of Los Angeles won't be here
because he's not a card same with Baltimore. So we
deal with the people that we have, and there are
good men there, but you know, getting to know them
(13:16):
is going to be tough. I hope there's a lot
of that socializing time.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.
Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has
emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost
pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.
He wore Poop Francis's miter that he had worn at
a youth gathering and then tried to, you know, inspire
(13:40):
and I think, connect with the young people. It didn't
go so well. But is that a strike against him
that he's worked in the Vatican so long? Or do
you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer
you know, banks, if you will, of the Church, they're
looking for somebody who knows the score and can run
things here in Rome.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the
last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,
some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of
people who have gone native and they're really part of
a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside,
and I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are
(14:22):
some monseignori who swam around here in.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Rome.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Look it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were
saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of
a pope is to teach number one, to sanctify and
to cover. And you know, we're all looking for that
strange unicorn figure who's going to have all those all
those capabilities in excess.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pole, we want
Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, well, those
are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Just before he died, Cardinal Pelle and I were having
lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been
very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being
deceived on some of these matters by.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The people around him?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he
has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a
cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he ought.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
To be aware that people around him may try to
do certain things. Maybe they do and they.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of experience
is something you can't entirely dispense with a person who's
had to run a large organization, could be a religious order,
it might be some a monastery or something. But I
think that that's an important feature that I myself am
going to be looking out for.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
A people person. And that doesn't mean going out to
the strangers, but working with people in an organization in harmony.
That is a big and important task for any pope
because you drop in to this bureaucracy here and you
almost have to turn it to your own designs. The
first rule of thumb, and we should I say this
(16:08):
for everybody watching, the first rule of thumb of interpreting
these these conclaves and the lead up to them. This
is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard Cardinal
Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope try
to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The previous
pope always has a great influence as a major factor
on whoever the next man will be, usually because the
(16:30):
cardinals want to change course from what was, or adjust
or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes the
pope to come, and the media has depicted Francis as
the people's pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter Casper,
who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So the
(16:51):
problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,
tell me about the elements of doctrine, how doctrine and
style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's
example influences their votes.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church
because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what
do we believe in in common? Not every Catholic Maths
and Sunday you preach, everybody praise out loud, the Creed,
they say it all together. The reason is that's what
that unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is
what things do we accept as true and what things.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Do we reject as false?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Though that's very important because if an organization doesn't have
a clear notion of what it believes in, then it's
a drift and sad to say. In the last Pontificate,
things that we took for granted that had been taught
directly by jump. All the Second and Benedict were contradicted
and ignored and even overturned.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
And they are.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Sexuality issues and the death penalty or all religions sent
to us by God. These questions had been answered, but
they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good. So
we have to have a pope was willing to say
the unity of faith is not the Kumbai. Everybody's in
the room smiling at each other, you know, one of
the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together. So
(18:19):
the big question is, well, where are we going and
what are we supposed to talk about on the way,
you know, and the apostles yeah, and then also who
gets in line, who's able to walk, and who's pushed
aside and said no, you're not on the path with us.
And the real image of the church is Jesus on
the mount giving the beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening.
(18:39):
Jesus was the center, and we took it in and
then try to apply it. I think the next pope
is going to hopefully embrace that role and say before
I say I want everybody to love each other, I
have to say I want everybody to believe that they
have to love each other, and that love is not
auto created by men men, it's given to what the
(19:00):
rules come from God.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
In other words, what does love really mean living God's law?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into
more of this and subsequent episodes, But the papacy, the
pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,
that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch
happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's
(19:25):
spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together
and chosen someone to fill peter spot and that continuous,
unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,
you know, we get into the weeds so deep on
this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of
what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the
(19:47):
first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's
charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, borsier popes
and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis
attempt to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at
least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
At the same time, though, I would encourage people who
are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.
I never tire of quoting a line from the American
modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that
could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain
(20:27):
native resilience. And our Lord, and our Lord told us
that the gates of.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Hell shall not prevail against the Church.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so
I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,
and I pray to God that they don't have to
live with the church it's weakened or has lost its way,
or I mean, we all need the church to be
the church. But at the same time, I think we
help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in
(20:57):
ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men
try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's
in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem
us on the cross, and he has put in motions
something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,
which in human terms is almost a miracle.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
In itself.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So we also worry over the next few days, next
few weeks, perhaps as this selection goes forward, but with
a certain confidence in the Lord.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously, I posted it
on social media recently. Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't
select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The
Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that
they can't mess it up. That's what basically he said,
(21:46):
And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People
think the Holy Spirit comes down like a dove on
the heads of these hundred and thirty plus men, and
that their little machines that vote like the Holy Spirit.
Not necessarily.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
No, the catture is never taught that the Holy Spirit
directly inspired the people who voted for the man who
ends up being the next Pope. What we say is
that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only
become pope when you say I accept this election. So
it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones
picking and the one accepting, So free choices. You know,
(22:22):
God loves us so much he gave us free choice
and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the
candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're
all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations
is how much attention do they pay to what their
job the job description of the pope is, And if
they disagree on what the job description is, then you.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Can have some problems.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
But you know, the secret role of people praying for
others comes forward in this type of activity.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
We need to pray for those cardinals.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I want to talk about something it's kind of hard
to talk about because I've just run into some people
in recent days have reminded me of this, including a
bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to
resign frankly, just days before the Pope went to the hospital.
And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong
except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say
(23:14):
it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number
of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was
a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.
And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,
and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian
streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was
(23:35):
running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of
that experience, after crushing a lot of toast, he said,
I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have
to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really
got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,
and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because
many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if
(23:58):
they loved Pope Francis and agree with him ideologically, they
did suffer the whims his whimsical nature, where he would
flip on a dime and say no to something he
just said yes to, and they were subjected to that
sort of thing regularly. Yeah. No, I remember very early on.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I'm sure both of you do too, that it wasn't
only a matter of people feeling if they were precarious
because they could get fired, and many were for getting
crosswise with the pope. They also felt that they didn't
know what they were supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
And you know, that's one of the.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if
you step out too far in one direction, now you
find out that the boss has actually changed what he
hopes is going to happen. Now you look like you're
opposing him. And these changes happened very very quickly, you know,
and we.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Can even look back toward the beginning.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
A lot of this has sort of become ancient history
because of the image that the Holy Father had of
being this sort of.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Gentle grandfather type.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You remember when the Sire Book came out the dictator
Pope very early on in the Pontificate, and that was
sparked by the way that he man handled and I
think that's not so too strong a term, the Knights
of Malta where Cardinal Burke was bounced out of there.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Some other people came and left very.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized almost nation.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, and that was that was an early sign and
when we saw it develop that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
On the one hand, yes, he had he presented this
very gentle, caring, merciful character and a lot of people
who attested to that, but he also had the iron
fist and the velvet glove whenever it came to something
you really wanted to get done. I won't speak to
canon long because we got the Canon lawyer here, but
obviously a lot a lot of that stuff just broke
the bounds of what might be called legal within the cafatur.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Father speak to that. I mean, not only the Knights
of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He
shut down conservative, traditional Latin and right communities because they
were too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.
Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell
(26:11):
was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and
fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it
and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced
to fire that firm and soon fire Pell. I mean
it boggles the mind in many ways.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
During the pontificate, Pope Francis showed that he didn't consider
canon law to be a very important part of his
responsibility as pope, even though the church teaching is that
pope is the lawgiver, so not only does he give
the law, he also enforces it.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And then you know, this was not done.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
For instance, a couple of bishops were removed one in
Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez. We had bishops strictly in the
United States. They were removed without proper canonical process and
decrees enunciating why they were removed when never issued. Because
in Canon law, if you're accused of committing an offense
(27:05):
that would merit some form of punishment, you have a
right to self defense. So the right to self defense
includes you're informed of the charge, you're giving the evidence
behind the charge, and then you were able to respond
to that evidence, produce your own evidence, and then there's
a hearing so that the independent judgment can be rendered.
And none of that happened. You know, Bishop Strickland was
(27:27):
called in Nuncio's office and get told these are the
reasons why you can't.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Be bishop anymore.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
And he never heard anything more.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
You know, he just was out.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But how cognizant do you think the cardinal's gathering just
a few blocks from where we are. How cognizant are
they of this widespread if you will, cleansing and firing
of people that the Pope just disagreed with. But they've
done nothing wrong, they were good men otherwise.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that certainly affected Cardinal Burke.
Know he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,
which are given to all cardinals because they work for
the church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See
they're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.
So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they
identify whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election.
(28:20):
Cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because
people think canon law just a bunch of rules to
make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, that a
lot of other things that make people unhappy and restrict
their freedom. You know, I have about sin and vice.
But law, it properly appride allows everyone to have their
rights respected. And if there's anything we need in the
modern world to say people have rights, you can't say
(28:43):
you have a right if it's not respected by the
people in charge.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware
of or the public is unaware of, that will determine
the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else
that you see?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to
go after soothsayers and predictors of the future.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Certainly be very careful of I'm not asking you to
do that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been
saying this now for a couple of years, but I
really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could
be a surprise.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You know, we pretty much know.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
What our American delegation is like. It's very much in
the mccarrack line and close to Pote France's. We know
what the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more
of a mixed bag. But some of the people that
are farther out from the traditions with which were familiar,
they might surprise us. I would have to think that
if there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going
to be working a little bit over time, it would
(29:43):
have to be in one of that group of people,
because they're going to be learning. They're going to be
a very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they
will want to play a role. They'll be looking at
some of the figures that they've looked up to in
the past as leaders, but I think they're going to
begin to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping
that the God of surprises is going to surprise us.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say, well,
he told young people, and I think I would argue
it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy. He
told young people, go out and make a mess. God
wants you to go out and make a mess, meaning
don't you know, don't don't follow the age or the world,
go do your own thing. But in fact, and in
(30:26):
his papacy, he too went out made a mess. What
impact will that have? Do you think the incoherence at times,
the back and forth, you know where he says, we
have to go out and bless gay unions. I want
every priest to do this. Then the Africans come back.
One of the voters here, Cardinal Labongo from Congo, comes
(30:46):
and says, we can't accept this on the continent of Africa.
This is illegal. We'll never accept this. So he says, okay, fine,
we'll give you a carve out. And they basically did
a moral carve out for Africa. Well, why is Africa
different from you know, Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that
and how that might shape these cardinals on the peripheric.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced,
and that we have to call a spade a space.
It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody
has to follow X, except the people in Africa because
they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.
It was it was a political move designed not to
cause problems, and of course they didn't want to withdraw
(31:28):
this permission given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,
where people get upset, they.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
Don't have to do it.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Well, look, the point here, I think for the overall
conclave discussion phase is do we want to admit we
have a problem and then do something about it or
do we want to pretend everything was fine and we
need someone who's going to continue with that line, Because
of course Poe Francis did not admit that there was
a problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.
(31:58):
He thought the problem was the people who disagree with
him on that. So much as we love the pope,
that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when
it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinal have
to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to
the church's constant tradition and teaching or will they say no?
What got started in the last pnivit has to continue.
(32:21):
That's the real stark choice they.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Face, that is it. That is really the choice right there.
And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that. I
know a number of cardinals have gone into these general
meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.
There's a lack of clarity. The people are confused, that
they're abandoning us. Because of this, we are sent We
are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Neuhaus used
(32:43):
to say, this is the acxis mundi upon which the
whole world turns. When you throw that off balance, every
faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're getting
that message. I'm hearing mixed things.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they
are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential
crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend
Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if
some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with
that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question
(33:15):
of what is the role of the church in the
world right now? Now we want the church to be
going out and evangelizing, but should it be evangelizing in
a way that it entangles it in some certain political issues.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Like immigration for example.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
We've talked about this before on the show, which make
it almost look like to be a Catholic in our
time is to take a certain political stance. I think
that that's the wrong thing for a pope to do,
and in fact, I think it's been counterproductive, not only
in North America but also in Europe that Pope Francis
(33:50):
harped so much on the immigration question when everyday people
are finding their communities being destroyed and even the rule
of law being violated in certain areas because certain groups
are given preference, that there's two tiered policing, for example,
in some places. So look, there's a lot there, and
there's a lot within the church, and there's a lot outside.
(34:12):
I don't have a great deal of confidence that these
people are hearing it. I don't have to have a
great deal of confidence that they knew it before they
arrived here. So you know, I mentioned the steep learning curve.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Let's just hope.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of
the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke
has launched this novena a crusade, if you will, a
prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle
here and break through the consciences of these cardinals. Father,
as we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard
(34:48):
or came across in the last couple of days. One
hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.
I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.
It's sort of the crossroads for the world.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Well, that's a hard question.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I guess the most surprising thing is that hearing the
notion that there's kind of a resistance to candor resistance
to the appeals of people in the College of Carters
who are dissatisfied with what we have. Because if that's
the case, then we're you know, amnesia becomes a requisite
(35:23):
for getting the next pope elected. I mean, how can
you pretend, with the decline in religious practice in Europe,
for instance, that we don't have a five alarm fire
going on in the church in Europe. I mean, we
have basically a political class hostile to the church. People
aren't going there. The ones who like the Latin Mass
(35:43):
and were going were being evicted, And then we have
people resigning from the church in Germany. The vocations picture
the birth dearth.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
You know, all of the problems that.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
We have in Europe and to say that the the
mission of church is fine because we're instructing people that
immigrants should be a lot out in capitalism produces death,
and you know, we have to do everything possible we
can not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,
wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven
and how to live well on earth. So I think
(36:15):
if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,
then they're amnesiacs, and you know they're not going to
be putting the right man in place.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I hope that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the
last few days, or they changed your perception of something
you had on your way here.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal
that would trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks that
there are only ten cardinals among the voters who are
actually theologians.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three, out of.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
One hundred and thirty three, So I don't think he
meant by that that you know, that they were academic theologians,
or that they had some kind of specialty. I think
he was just saying that, you know, it's good, solid
understanding the faith, the enormous tree addition that we have,
you know, there's been brought forward. I mean, you can
talk about mercy all you like, but the Church is
(37:09):
says that that idea of mercy is informed by two
thousand years a very holy geniuses who have contributed to
a tradition that enables us to understand human beings, our
relationship to one another, and our relationship to God. And
if we don't have a rich understanding of that, a
person that is, for example, is not well schooled in
(37:29):
Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquiments.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
You know, we're just it says.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Tired metaphor, but we're arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
We're not really getting to the place we want to
get by being on the ship of faith.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
So that number of ten, boy, that was a surprising
number to me.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a
time when young people and we saw it over Easter
in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to
be baptized, and they're all young people and a lot
of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them
at Old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,
here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.
(38:10):
What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for
the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are
they coming for the church you're giving them and the
church that is and was, or will they find some
other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for?
And that to me is the biggest concern. And if
(38:31):
they were, if they're worried about the future, they should
look to that father.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yeah, agreement, Raymond, is exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in
the church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths,
the permanent things, and then the mystical things. You know,
the mystery of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing.
Plumbing is important, but that's not why we call a priest,
you know. So you know, the pope's job is not
(38:57):
to be chief advisor to wellness project of the United Nations.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
You know, it has to be how do we get people.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
To recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and
then live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously
wrote a book called God or Nothing, and I think
that really should be the motto of those going into
the Senate, into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God,
otherwise nothing matters.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Well. You also said something early on about candor and
Archbishop charleship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia, he wrote a great piece,
very short piece, but he said, I have lovely and
warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum, the time
between the death of the pope and the election of another,
it's a time for candor, he said. It's a time
(39:43):
to candidly say this is what we went through, and
this is what we need, this is what needs fixing.
And unless the cardinals are willing to do that, and
all of us, everybody listening, and those of us here,
unless we're willing to engage in that same candor, I
worry about the outcome here because it collapses into nostalgia.
And you know, isn't it wonderful? And police pray for
(40:05):
us all and you know, a sainted pope. It's just
it's not reality. I'll give you all each the last
word of what you're looking forward to in the week ahead.
Bob will start with you.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Well, I mentioned it earlier.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I really hope that what we're going to see is
a kind of an increasing diversity of views.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I think is the way to look at it.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
That as people begin to know one another and they
feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're
willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we
were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,
that there was going to be a Francis effect that
was going to draw people into the church, draw.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Young people into the church and whatnot. We haven't seen that.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
And the church is hemorrhaging people left and right, and
in the United States, here in Europe, and it seems
to be strong in Africa and a few other places.
But if we want a global effect of really bringing
the Gospel of Jesus Christ two people so that they
come to Christ themselves, I think we need to set
off in a different direction. We had twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy,
(41:08):
and I think we need something else right now. And
I think why is observers of the church in the
world at this point, we'll lash onto that and maybe
we'll be surprised that some of the opinions we start
to see.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
A peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say,
I'm looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's
going on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward
to hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being
put forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when
(41:41):
that cardinal or whoever you know gets up at a
meeting and says X y Z, I hope we'll could
also get in front of the microphone and tell us,
because in the age of communications, it's not enough to
tell people we know what we're doing, you know, trust us.
We have to say, tell us what you want, We'll
support it if it sounds good.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
So that would be what I'd look forward to.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
More information, more sharing, and then to be quite honest,
more Cardinal Sarah, approach God or nothing.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
We will check in with you all Monday in the
lead up to the conclave. Conclave begins Wednesday, May seventh,
and then it's really secret ballots. We'll just be watching
the smoke and trying to shape the reaction on the
outside for you. I hope this has giving you a
little insight into the movements of the conclave before it begins.
(42:31):
Will have much more for you on the candidates and
other issues surrounding this in the days ahead. This Arroyo
Grande series Conclave Crew Vatican addition continues. Don't miss an episode,
go subscribe. Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. We will convene again.
I'm Raimond Arroyo from the Vatican. See you next time.
(42:51):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts. Spoken conscis Spoken Percast and specs Spoken spokes
Percasts
What are the real factors that shape the next pope
and the selection of the pope? The Conclave Crew has answers.
Stay with us. Welcome to an Arroyo Grande brand news series,
The Conclave Crew Vatican Edition. We're all here in Rome.
We're going to answer your questions. Let's convene the crew.
(00:22):
Father Gerald Murray Cannon, lawyer from the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of the Catholic Thing
dot org, and I'm Mariam ad Arroyo. This is the
first in an Arroyo Grande series. Go subscribe to the
Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify of course on
YouTube at a Royo Grande Show and turn on those notifications.
(00:44):
We don't want you to miss an episode of this.
Each episode will bring you the latest from the Conclave.
And I think you're going to be impressed by what
you hear. These gentlemen and I have been covering this
literally for decades, and you'll hear insights and I think
elements of this conclave in what shapes it you may
never have considered before. As the cardinals said about the
business of selecting the new Pope, where is the church now.
(01:06):
Every pope leaves unfinished business. Let's talk for a moment, Jens,
I mean John Paul was an apostle who traveled the
whole world. He wasn't much of an administrator. How will
Francis's papacy, his record shape the man we're about to
watch be elected Pope, Bob will start with you.
Speaker 2 (01:25):
Well, I hope it would, at least at the beginning,
cause the cardinals who are about to elect this man
to reflect very carefully about their most recent choice. Because
we obviously, with the Pope Benedict, we got a theologian,
I mean a world class theologian who will be read
for centuries. With Francis, what the cardinals thought they were
getting was a reformer. That was the term that was
(01:47):
often used about him, and in fact, the first biography
by Austin Ivory was called The Great Reformer.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Yeah, well, we still have with.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Us a lot of unfinished business and financial matters, the
matters of sexual abuse and order within the church. So
if you think about what the next leader of the
church ought to be, of course he ought to be
a spiritual man, a follower, a close follower of Jesus Christ.
But somebody who can carry out those other functions that
(02:18):
are sort of governing functions. They're not just theological and
spiritual matters. The church is badly in need of a
rudder right now, and it needs one that is conceptual,
but I think it's one that's also practical.
Speaker 1 (02:31):
Father Bob touched on it. I remember those years ago
when twelve years ago, when Pope Francis was elected, and
even Cardinal George Pell and others said, this is going
to be a financial reformer. He'll bring an end to
the sexual abuse in the church. He'll reform the couria,
the bureaucracy of the government. Here has he achieved those things,
(02:52):
Let's start there.
Speaker 4 (02:54):
He did some things to effect change, but in the
end nothing really happened in terms of and improvement. He
appointed Cardinal Pell to be in charge of the Secretariat
of the Economy as it's called. It was a new
department in the Vatican, and they on earthed and found
many assets money that was being held by individual departments
(03:15):
in the Vatican, which is the way they used to
do it. Cardinal Pell wanted to centralize everything. He wanted
to centralize investments so that they could make money on
this He also wanted to reform how Vatican assets such
as rental properties were dealt with, and stepped on a
lot of toes, and the Pope didn't back pell, so
that all went to the wayside.
Speaker 5 (03:36):
Sex abuse.
Speaker 4 (03:37):
The Pope said zero tolerance, but then notoriously tolerated Bishop Zanketta,
who was convicted by an Argentine court of abusing seminarians.
He protected Father Rupnik, who was thrown out of the Jesuits,
and he's been accused by many many nuns of having
committed sexual abuse in his capacity as their spiritual director.
(03:58):
So there are lots ofdictions. He did issue a reform
of the Roman Curia, but in my opinion, made it
more bureaucratic and less gospel or reflective. So I think
it's an unfinished agenda, but it remains very much an
agenda needing to be done.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
One of the things that again this episode sort of
focused on the factors that will shape the choice of
the next pope. How much of that do you think
will factor in the finances? The sex abuse and the
bureaucracy that is really well. Our colleague get Pentent told
us today he ran into somebody's vaticant employee. He said,
(04:35):
how do you feel with Pope France has gone? And
the man told him free, I feel free. That tells
us a lot, Bob. How much will all that play
in the minds of these electors.
Speaker 2 (04:46):
Well, we could hope that it will play a lot
in their minds, But as we've said in other places
during the course of covering this papacy, it's not clear
that the cardinals who are going to have to make
the decision or as aware of the the challenges facing
the church as say people like us are who follow
it on a regular basis. Now they can't help but
be aware of the financial problem because that's been announced
(05:09):
that you know, it has a huge, huge deficit in
terms of the retirement funds for the Vatican employees.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
The Peters pencils is very much down.
Speaker 2 (05:19):
You can see that they're trying to use every possibility
during this jubilee year of collecting six zeros here, seven
yuros there, because it's just the operating fund is also
very far down, and.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
They were all briefed on this the other day in
their private meeting. We should tell people.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
Now, you know, I think that you know, a reasonably
responsible human being is going to take that very seriously,
because that the Vatican is not able to operate, all
the other things start to be put in jeopardy. The
business with the cleaning up of the sexual matters. I
don't know how much they know about that. Maybe they
(05:58):
think that the documents themselves have all this. But there's
a lot to be done on a practical nature. As
I said earlier, that the next the next pope is
really going to have to implement a zero tolerance. We
heard a lot about zero tolerance, but in fact there
are special deals. There's kind of what people call in
the secular world two tiered policing. People at the lower
(06:18):
level are are slapped with fines and with with penalties,
and then people like Rupnik, who's a famous artist, Father
Marco Rupnik goes on as merry way. So look, there's
much to be done here, and let's hope that these
people look very very closely at those questions.
Speaker 1 (06:36):
Father, your thoughts on this, How how large will these
issues loom in the minds of these cardinals? What we're
hearing this week. You know, we spoke to Cardinal Muller,
We've spoken to others. There seems to be a sentimentality
almost in these in these meetings where they keep harkening
back to some imagined synodal fantasy land that that Pope
(06:57):
Frances envisioned or was about to implement. Speak to all
of that.
Speaker 4 (07:02):
Yeah, no, I think the Bob is right. These things
are important, and they would seem to indicate we need
a pope who has some managerial experience, but even more
than that, who has a backbone and is able to
make decisions. I know a lot of smart people who
can analyze a problem, but if you told them time
to solve it, they would run out of the room
and they say, that's not my job. I'm here just
(07:24):
to observe. Now, we need somebody who's not an observer
on what's happening in the Vatican. In the church and
the other hand, the job description of the pope is
not primarily management. It's primarily preaching the Gospel and guiding
the flock. So you know, guiding the flock means governing.
It means using the pastoral staff to guide the flock
to go to this pasture and avoid that rocky ground.
(07:46):
So that means teaching the truth and enforcing the doctrinal
limitations in the church. You know, part of the problem
and this pontificate is that people who contradicted the teaching
of the Church were put forward the way you just
for instance, a naval ship has not simply just put
an exos set missile through the side of it. It's
to have the crew abandon ship by not knowing what
(08:08):
their jobs are, not wanting to do them. And I
think the same thing applies in the Church. We have
to reinstall confidence in the Church's mission.
Speaker 1 (08:15):
Well look in the coming days. And part of the
reason I wanted to do this series is because I
want people to have a realistic vision of what's actually
happening here in Rome. And many people think, well, it's
the conclave, that's when everything happens. They go into the
Sistine Chapel, they're locked away, and there'll be time for that.
But we know the real business of this conclave, choosing
(08:37):
a pope, has already begun. And that's during these general
Congregation meetings, when these cardinals come together one hundred and
thirty three electors gathered here. Bob speak to how well
these men know each other and how their ignorance of
one another, as well as their ignorance of the diocese
(08:58):
is that these men have control over or dominion over
how that will influence the ultimate selection here.
Speaker 2 (09:05):
You know, a lot of people are worried that because
Pope Francis appointed so many of the electors that is
going to be following directly in his line, and of
course some other people that he appointed are very very
close to what he tried to do with his papacy.
The other is the ones that we talk about coming
from the peripheries. They're much more of a wild card.
(09:26):
If you're from you're a cardinal in Mongolia where there
are five thousand Catholics and you just got appointed because
the Holy Father happened to see you last week and
he liked he or you're from Tonga, you're from one
of these other small countries. That really changes things in
the way that you don't really know the other people.
You haven't been involved in working at the level with
other cardinals on stuff within the church or maybe international
(09:49):
affairs or political matters.
Speaker 3 (09:51):
So they've got to get to know one another in these.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
Basically seven days, ten days to whatever it is between
now and the time they have to start voting, and
that's really not the best circumstances in which to get
to know somebody, because everybody is sort of eyeing one another.
It's like a pressure cooker. I mean, the spirit involves
itself in these decisions, but you really, very quickly have
(10:15):
to kind of get a sense of who it is
around me, who looks popular, and you know what kind
of things are they pushing? You know, how can I
rely on them to deliver on the things that they're
saying that they're going to do. To do this in
just a matter of a few days or even a
week or so, it's not the best circumstances, but let's
just hope that the process goes as well as it
(10:36):
possibly can given what it's been built up to over
the last dozen years.
Speaker 1 (10:40):
And Father, I'll ask you to expand on that. And
over the last few years, really decades, we've seen these conclaves.
The business really happens in small dinners, gatherings in all
the little borgos around the Vatican and all over Rome,
where these cardinals meet each other around the table or
in an intimate setting, and we're talking five or six
(11:00):
of them, and that's where you really get an exchange
of ideas and alliances start to shift. Speak to that.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
Yeah, I mean, everybody in life knows.
Speaker 4 (11:10):
Work is important, but socializing is very important, you know
what I mean. Another, it's one thing that's going to
the boss's office and the boss that hear your task,
go away and then go to the lunch room or
the water cool and say, well, how does this place
operate and what am I supposed to do? And I
think a lot of the College of Cardinals, you know,
Number one, they saw the Pope rarely because they were
(11:30):
rarely called to Rome. And then secondly they then don't
know each other because the Pope did not like having
these general meetings of cardinals. And why not, Well, the
reason was that they had one at the beginning of
the Pontific in which some of the cardinals told the
Pope they didn't agree with the Pope's ideas.
Speaker 5 (11:47):
So you know it really the Pope had the idea.
Is sad to say that.
Speaker 4 (11:53):
You know, it's like meeting the Queen of England. You're
there to listen, not to talk unless the queen asked
you to talk. And I think but the Pope he
wanted to kind of go in a direction. The issue
back then was communion for divorce and remarried, and there
were contradictions by other cardinals, which I think is healthy
and good. And you know, by the way Benedict and
John pol the second had a much more open style.
Speaker 5 (12:14):
Of these cardinal meetings, but no Bob.
Speaker 4 (12:17):
Back to Bob's point, this is where things are going
to happen, where people are going to listen to each
other for the first time and kind of judge a man.
The old system had had a lot of virtues the
people who became cardinals, and the old system with those
who worked in the Roman curia for a long time
or those who rose to become archbishops of big diocese.
You occasionally had nuncios and ambassadors, but they were also
(12:40):
kind of Roman hands. So you had the people whose
talents were visible because they were the archery of New York, Paris,
La Berlin, Madrid and Lisbon. And then you had people
who knew how the Vatican work.
Speaker 5 (12:51):
Now, the Vatican.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
Basically has been kind of like in a stutter step motion,
you know, go here one day, go there the next.
The Archbishop of Paris won't be here because he's not
a cardinal. The archbisip of Los Angeles won't be here
because he's not a card same with Baltimore. So we
deal with the people that we have, and there are
good men there, but you know, getting to know them
(13:16):
is going to be tough. I hope there's a lot
of that socializing time.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Yeah, well, let's lean into that for a minute, Bob.
Do you think Cardinal Paroline, the Secretary of State, has
emerged as one of the candidates. You saw him almost
pushing his own candidacy the other day. He gave a homily.
He wore Poop Francis's miter that he had worn at
a youth gathering and then tried to, you know, inspire
(13:40):
and I think, connect with the young people. It didn't
go so well. But is that a strike against him
that he's worked in the Vatican so long? Or do
you think these men from the peripheries, from the outer
you know, banks, if you will, of the Church, they're
looking for somebody who knows the score and can run
things here in Rome.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
Well, I've been living in Washington, d C. For the
last thirty years, so if I may use a Washington term,
some may fear a swamp creature. There's the problem of
people who have gone native and they're really part of
a bureaucracy rather than an evangelizing church that looks outside,
and I think sometimes that's overplayed, although there certainly are
(14:22):
some monseignori who swam around here in.
Speaker 5 (14:27):
Rome.
Speaker 2 (14:28):
Look it goes both ways, I suppose, as we were
saying earlier, basically the role of a bishop or of
a pope is to teach number one, to sanctify and
to cover. And you know, we're all looking for that
strange unicorn figure who's going to have all those all
those capabilities in excess.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
By Cardinal Dolan saying we want John Pole, we want
Benedict's rigor, and we want Pope Francis's heart, well, those
are three different people. It's kind of a hard mix.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Just before he died, Cardinal Pelle and I were having
lunch and I said to him, you know, you've been
very close to the Holy Father. Is he just being
deceived on some of these matters by.
Speaker 3 (15:13):
The people around him?
Speaker 2 (15:13):
And he said to me, oh, Robert, he said, he
has been a bishop and an archbishop and now a
cardinal and a pope for many years, and so he ought.
Speaker 3 (15:20):
To be aware that people around him may try to
do certain things. Maybe they do and they.
Speaker 2 (15:26):
Fool him sometimes, but that's certainly that kind of experience
is something you can't entirely dispense with a person who's
had to run a large organization, could be a religious order,
it might be some a monastery or something. But I
think that that's an important feature that I myself am
going to be looking out for.
Speaker 1 (15:47):
A people person. And that doesn't mean going out to
the strangers, but working with people in an organization in harmony.
That is a big and important task for any pope
because you drop in to this bureaucracy here and you
almost have to turn it to your own designs. The
first rule of thumb, and we should I say this
(16:08):
for everybody watching, the first rule of thumb of interpreting
these these conclaves and the lead up to them. This
is a battle of narratives. Right now, you heard Cardinal
Giovanni Battista Ray at the funeral of the Pope try
to urge for the continuation of Francis's agenda. The previous
pope always has a great influence as a major factor
on whoever the next man will be, usually because the
(16:30):
cardinals want to change course from what was, or adjust
or refine, but inevitably what the pope prior shapes the
pope to come, and the media has depicted Francis as
the people's pope. It reminds me of Cardinal Walter Casper,
who described Francis's theology as the people's theology. So the
(16:51):
problem is at times that theology ignored Catholic theology. Father,
tell me about the elements of doctrine, how doctrine and
style will shape the cardinal's decisions here and how Francis's
example influences their votes.
Speaker 4 (17:12):
Yeah, doctrine is the basis of unity in the church
because doctrine means teaching. Teaching leads to belief. So what
do we believe in in common? Not every Catholic Maths
and Sunday you preach, everybody praise out loud, the Creed,
they say it all together. The reason is that's what
that unites us in faith. The content of doctrine is
what things do we accept as true and what things.
Speaker 5 (17:34):
Do we reject as false?
Speaker 4 (17:36):
Though that's very important because if an organization doesn't have
a clear notion of what it believes in, then it's
a drift and sad to say. In the last Pontificate,
things that we took for granted that had been taught
directly by jump. All the Second and Benedict were contradicted
and ignored and even overturned.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
And they are.
Speaker 4 (17:55):
Sexuality issues and the death penalty or all religions sent
to us by God. These questions had been answered, but
they were reopened and the new answer wasn't good. So
we have to have a pope was willing to say
the unity of faith is not the Kumbai. Everybody's in
the room smiling at each other, you know, one of
the tropes of the pontagic. Let's all walk together. So
(18:19):
the big question is, well, where are we going and
what are we supposed to talk about on the way,
you know, and the apostles yeah, and then also who
gets in line, who's able to walk, and who's pushed
aside and said no, you're not on the path with us.
And the real image of the church is Jesus on
the mount giving the beatitude sermon. You know, everybody was listening.
(18:39):
Jesus was the center, and we took it in and
then try to apply it. I think the next pope
is going to hopefully embrace that role and say before
I say I want everybody to love each other, I
have to say I want everybody to believe that they
have to love each other, and that love is not
auto created by men men, it's given to what the
(19:00):
rules come from God.
Speaker 5 (19:01):
In other words, what does love really mean living God's law?
Speaker 1 (19:05):
Well, for those non Catholics looking, and we'll get into
more of this and subsequent episodes, But the papacy, the
pope is nothing more than the successor of Saint Peter,
that first Apostle. So it's an amazing thing to watch
happen because like the Apostles chose someone to fill Judas's
(19:25):
spot among the twelve, so through time they've come together
and chosen someone to fill peter spot and that continuous,
unbroken chain of two thousand plus years. I mean, Bob,
you know, we get into the weeds so deep on
this we sometimes forget the grandeur of an importance of
what this is. This is the vicar of Christ, the
(19:47):
first Apostle and his successor. I mean, that's what he's
charged with. Now, there have been spectacular flameouts, borsier popes
and horrible nightmares, but they didn't change doctrine. Pope Francis
attempt to shift the doctrine around a bit, or at
least the practice of it. I'll let you have the floor.
Speaker 5 (20:06):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
At the same time, though, I would encourage people who
are watching or listening not to get to apocalyptic about this.
I never tire of quoting a line from the American
modernist poet Ezra Pound, who said that any institution that
could survive the picturesqueness of the Borges has a certain
(20:27):
native resilience. And our Lord, and our Lord told us
that the gates of.
Speaker 3 (20:33):
Hell shall not prevail against the Church.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
So look, you know, I've got children and grandchildren, so
I'm immediately concerned about the next two or three generations,
and I pray to God that they don't have to
live with the church it's weakened or has lost its way,
or I mean, we all need the church to be
the church. But at the same time, I think we
help a great deal if we maintain that confidence in
(20:57):
ourselves that ultimately the Lord is in charge. We men
try to mess up everything, including the Church, but he's
in charge, and he knows that he tried to redeem
us on the cross, and he has put in motions
something that you rightly say has lasted over two thousand years,
which in human terms is almost a miracle.
Speaker 5 (21:15):
In itself.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
So we also worry over the next few days, next
few weeks, perhaps as this selection goes forward, but with
a certain confidence in the Lord.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Yeah, you know, Pope Benedict said famously, I posted it
on social media recently. Father that the Holy Spirit doesn't
select the pope. The Holy Spirit guides and inspires. The
Holy Spirit's presence is a confidence in the fact that
they can't mess it up. That's what basically he said,
(21:46):
And I think there's a lot of wisdom there. People
think the Holy Spirit comes down like a dove on
the heads of these hundred and thirty plus men, and
that their little machines that vote like the Holy Spirit.
Not necessarily.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
No, the catture is never taught that the Holy Spirit
directly inspired the people who voted for the man who
ends up being the next Pope. What we say is
that the cardinals elect the pope, and then you only
become pope when you say I accept this election. So
it's a free choice matter on both sides, the ones
picking and the one accepting, So free choices. You know,
(22:22):
God loves us so much he gave us free choice
and free will. Now, of course, the quality of the
candidates depends on who's in the College of Cardinals. They're
all chosen by the pope. The quality of their deliberations
is how much attention do they pay to what their
job the job description of the pope is, And if
they disagree on what the job description is, then you.
Speaker 5 (22:42):
Can have some problems.
Speaker 4 (22:43):
But you know, the secret role of people praying for
others comes forward in this type of activity.
Speaker 5 (22:51):
We need to pray for those cardinals.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
I want to talk about something it's kind of hard
to talk about because I've just run into some people
in recent days have reminded me of this, including a
bishop who was recently script of his title, forced to
resign frankly, just days before the Pope went to the hospital.
And this was a bishop who had done nothing wrong
except he had huge numbers of seminarians. I'll just say
(23:14):
it is Bishop Ray of France. He had huge number
of seminarians, but they were traditionally minded, and he was
a traditional bishop, and that attracted young men to the priesthood.
And he was sort of punished for that, sidelined for it,
and driven out of his post. There was an authoritarian
streak in Pope Francis that he recognized when he was
(23:35):
running the Jesuits. He said, you know, coming out of
that experience, after crushing a lot of toast, he said,
I have an authoritarian you know, default that I have
to be rid of. Well, it's apparent he never really
got rid of it. Talk to me about that, Bob,
and how that could be a sleeper factor here, because
many of those men in the Roman Couria, even if
(23:58):
they loved Pope Francis and agree with him ideologically, they
did suffer the whims his whimsical nature, where he would
flip on a dime and say no to something he
just said yes to, and they were subjected to that
sort of thing regularly. Yeah. No, I remember very early on.
Speaker 2 (24:16):
I'm sure both of you do too, that it wasn't
only a matter of people feeling if they were precarious
because they could get fired, and many were for getting
crosswise with the pope. They also felt that they didn't
know what they were supposed to do.
Speaker 3 (24:30):
And you know, that's one of the.
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Other consequences of unclear teaching or unclear governance, that if
you step out too far in one direction, now you
find out that the boss has actually changed what he
hopes is going to happen. Now you look like you're
opposing him. And these changes happened very very quickly, you know,
and we.
Speaker 3 (24:48):
Can even look back toward the beginning.
Speaker 2 (24:50):
A lot of this has sort of become ancient history
because of the image that the Holy Father had of
being this sort of.
Speaker 3 (24:55):
Gentle grandfather type.
Speaker 2 (24:56):
You remember when the Sire Book came out the dictator
Pope very early on in the Pontificate, and that was
sparked by the way that he man handled and I
think that's not so too strong a term, the Knights
of Malta where Cardinal Burke was bounced out of there.
Speaker 3 (25:14):
Some other people came and left very.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Quickly, and Malta was like an independently recognized almost nation.
Speaker 3 (25:21):
Yeah, and that was that was an early sign and
when we saw it develop that.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
On the one hand, yes, he had he presented this
very gentle, caring, merciful character and a lot of people
who attested to that, but he also had the iron
fist and the velvet glove whenever it came to something
you really wanted to get done. I won't speak to
canon long because we got the Canon lawyer here, but
obviously a lot a lot of that stuff just broke
the bounds of what might be called legal within the cafatur.
Speaker 1 (25:49):
Father speak to that. I mean, not only the Knights
of Malta. Opus Day was opened up and rediscovered. He
shut down conservative, traditional Latin and right communities because they
were too devotional, an old school which he didn't care for.
Cardinal Pell, who was only doing his bidding. Cardinal Pell
(26:11):
was charged with finding all the hidden bank accounts and
fixing the finances of the Vatican. When he did it
and brought an accounting firm in, the Pope was convinced
to fire that firm and soon fire Pell. I mean
it boggles the mind in many ways.
Speaker 5 (26:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (26:27):
During the pontificate, Pope Francis showed that he didn't consider
canon law to be a very important part of his
responsibility as pope, even though the church teaching is that
pope is the lawgiver, so not only does he give
the law, he also enforces it.
Speaker 5 (26:41):
And then you know, this was not done.
Speaker 4 (26:45):
For instance, a couple of bishops were removed one in
Puerto Rico Daniel Fernandez. We had bishops strictly in the
United States. They were removed without proper canonical process and
decrees enunciating why they were removed when never issued. Because
in Canon law, if you're accused of committing an offense
(27:05):
that would merit some form of punishment, you have a
right to self defense. So the right to self defense
includes you're informed of the charge, you're giving the evidence
behind the charge, and then you were able to respond
to that evidence, produce your own evidence, and then there's
a hearing so that the independent judgment can be rendered.
And none of that happened. You know, Bishop Strickland was
(27:27):
called in Nuncio's office and get told these are the
reasons why you can't.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
Be bishop anymore.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
And he never heard anything more.
Speaker 5 (27:36):
You know, he just was out.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
But how cognizant do you think the cardinal's gathering just
a few blocks from where we are. How cognizant are
they of this widespread if you will, cleansing and firing
of people that the Pope just disagreed with. But they've
done nothing wrong, they were good men otherwise.
Speaker 4 (27:56):
Yeah, I think there's general knowledge that certainly affected Cardinal Burke.
Know he was denied his salary and his subsidized apartment,
which are given to all cardinals because they work for
the church and the Roman Curia and the Holy See
they're aware of it. I think they were uncomfortable with it.
So I hope and pray that in their deliberations they
identify whatever man is a chosen and accepts the election.
(28:20):
Cannot continue to act arbitrarily and ignore canon law because
people think canon law just a bunch of rules to
make people unhappy and restrict their freedom. No, that a
lot of other things that make people unhappy and restrict
their freedom. You know, I have about sin and vice.
But law, it properly appride allows everyone to have their
rights respected. And if there's anything we need in the
modern world to say people have rights, you can't say
(28:43):
you have a right if it's not respected by the
people in charge.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
Bob, what's another factor that you think we are unaware
of or the public is unaware of, that will determine
the outcome of this papal election. Is there anything else
that you see?
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Well, we are warned in the Old Testament not to
go after soothsayers and predictors of the future.
Speaker 1 (29:05):
Certainly be very careful of I'm not asking you to
do that.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
I'm not candidates, but you know, I think I've been
saying this now for a couple of years, but I
really do think that the cardinals from the peripheries could
be a surprise.
Speaker 3 (29:18):
You know, we pretty much know.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
What our American delegation is like. It's very much in
the mccarrack line and close to Pote France's. We know
what the Africans are. Europeans are a little bit more
of a mixed bag. But some of the people that
are farther out from the traditions with which were familiar,
they might surprise us. I would have to think that
if there's a place that the Holy Spirit is going
to be working a little bit over time, it would
(29:43):
have to be in one of that group of people,
because they're going to be learning. They're going to be
a very stiff, steep learning curve, and I think they
will want to play a role. They'll be looking at
some of the figures that they've looked up to in
the past as leaders, but I think they're going to
begin to make their own own judgments and I'm hoping
that the God of surprises is going to surprise us.
Speaker 5 (30:04):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:04):
Well, you know, Pope Francis father used to always say, well,
he told young people, and I think I would argue
it's the it's the key to unlock his papacy. He
told young people, go out and make a mess. God
wants you to go out and make a mess, meaning
don't you know, don't don't follow the age or the world,
go do your own thing. But in fact, and in
(30:26):
his papacy, he too went out made a mess. What
impact will that have? Do you think the incoherence at times,
the back and forth, you know where he says, we
have to go out and bless gay unions. I want
every priest to do this. Then the Africans come back.
One of the voters here, Cardinal Labongo from Congo, comes
(30:46):
and says, we can't accept this on the continent of Africa.
This is illegal. We'll never accept this. So he says, okay, fine,
we'll give you a carve out. And they basically did
a moral carve out for Africa. Well, why is Africa
different from you know, Manhattan or Poughkeepsie. Speak to that
and how that might shape these cardinals on the peripheric.
Speaker 4 (31:06):
No, this is part of the incoherence that we experienced,
and that we have to call a spade a space.
It is incoherent to say Catholic teaching is X. Everybody
has to follow X, except the people in Africa because
they have a different notion where Catholic teaching is No.
It was it was a political move designed not to
cause problems, and of course they didn't want to withdraw
(31:28):
this permission given now for blessing homosexual couples, so they said, okay, well,
where people get upset, they.
Speaker 5 (31:35):
Don't have to do it.
Speaker 4 (31:36):
Well, look, the point here, I think for the overall
conclave discussion phase is do we want to admit we
have a problem and then do something about it or
do we want to pretend everything was fine and we
need someone who's going to continue with that line, Because
of course Poe Francis did not admit that there was
a problem with gay blessings or community for divorce and remarried.
(31:58):
He thought the problem was the people who disagree with
him on that. So much as we love the pope,
that doesn't mean we agree with everything he does when
it contradicts what his predecessors did. So the cardinal have
to make a courageous decision. Will they say yes to
the church's constant tradition and teaching or will they say no?
What got started in the last pnivit has to continue.
(32:21):
That's the real stark choice they.
Speaker 1 (32:23):
Face, that is it. That is really the choice right there.
And the question is, Bob, are they hearing that. I
know a number of cardinals have gone into these general
meetings this week and said, brothers, we have a problem.
There's a lack of clarity. The people are confused, that
they're abandoning us. Because of this, we are sent We
are the axis Mundi, as our friend Richard Neuhaus used
(32:43):
to say, this is the acxis mundi upon which the
whole world turns. When you throw that off balance, every
faith is thrown off balance. Do you think they're getting
that message. I'm hearing mixed things.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Yeah, I'm hearing that as well. I think that they
are not particularly well informed about these controversies and potential
crises that exist in the church, potential divisions. Our friend
Cardinal Mueller has talked about the possibility of sism if
some of these things aren't remedied, and I agree with
that absolutely entirely. And then there's just a bigger question
(33:15):
of what is the role of the church in the
world right now? Now we want the church to be
going out and evangelizing, but should it be evangelizing in
a way that it entangles it in some certain political issues.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Like immigration for example.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
We've talked about this before on the show, which make
it almost look like to be a Catholic in our
time is to take a certain political stance. I think
that that's the wrong thing for a pope to do,
and in fact, I think it's been counterproductive, not only
in North America but also in Europe that Pope Francis
(33:50):
harped so much on the immigration question when everyday people
are finding their communities being destroyed and even the rule
of law being violated in certain areas because certain groups
are given preference, that there's two tiered policing, for example,
in some places. So look, there's a lot there, and
there's a lot within the church, and there's a lot outside.
(34:12):
I don't have a great deal of confidence that these
people are hearing it. I don't have to have a
great deal of confidence that they knew it before they
arrived here. So you know, I mentioned the steep learning curve.
Speaker 3 (34:24):
Let's just hope.
Speaker 1 (34:26):
Yeah, that's all you can do at the end of
the day, hope and pray, which you know, Cardinal Burke
has launched this novena a crusade, if you will, a
prayer to invite the Holy Spirit to work a miracle
here and break through the consciences of these cardinals. Father,
as we wrap up, the most surprising thing you heard
(34:48):
or came across in the last couple of days. One
hears and sees things here that you don't see other places.
I mean, you just come across the entirety of the church.
It's sort of the crossroads for the world.
Speaker 5 (35:00):
Well, that's a hard question.
Speaker 4 (35:02):
I guess the most surprising thing is that hearing the
notion that there's kind of a resistance to candor resistance
to the appeals of people in the College of Carters
who are dissatisfied with what we have. Because if that's
the case, then we're you know, amnesia becomes a requisite
(35:23):
for getting the next pope elected. I mean, how can
you pretend, with the decline in religious practice in Europe,
for instance, that we don't have a five alarm fire
going on in the church in Europe. I mean, we
have basically a political class hostile to the church. People
aren't going there. The ones who like the Latin Mass
(35:43):
and were going were being evicted, And then we have
people resigning from the church in Germany. The vocations picture
the birth dearth.
Speaker 5 (35:52):
You know, all of the problems that.
Speaker 4 (35:54):
We have in Europe and to say that the the
mission of church is fine because we're instructing people that
immigrants should be a lot out in capitalism produces death,
and you know, we have to do everything possible we
can not to have an environmental crisis and say to well,
wait a minute, I thought religions about getting to heaven
and how to live well on earth. So I think
(36:15):
if the cardinals don't confront that we have a problematic situation,
then they're amnesiacs, and you know they're not going to
be putting the right man in place.
Speaker 5 (36:22):
I hope that doesn't happen.
Speaker 1 (36:24):
Yeah, Bob, the most surprising thing you've heard in the
last few days, or they changed your perception of something
you had on your way here.
Speaker 2 (36:32):
Well, I can give you a precise number a cardinal
that would trust very much. Yeah, says he thinks that
there are only ten cardinals among the voters who are
actually theologians.
Speaker 1 (36:44):
Wow, out of one hundred and thirty three, out of.
Speaker 2 (36:47):
One hundred and thirty three, So I don't think he
meant by that that you know, that they were academic theologians,
or that they had some kind of specialty. I think
he was just saying that, you know, it's good, solid
understanding the faith, the enormous tree addition that we have,
you know, there's been brought forward. I mean, you can
talk about mercy all you like, but the Church is
(37:09):
says that that idea of mercy is informed by two
thousand years a very holy geniuses who have contributed to
a tradition that enables us to understand human beings, our
relationship to one another, and our relationship to God. And
if we don't have a rich understanding of that, a
person that is, for example, is not well schooled in
(37:29):
Saint Augustine or Saint Thomas aquiments.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
You know, we're just it says.
Speaker 2 (37:35):
Tired metaphor, but we're arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.
We're not really getting to the place we want to
get by being on the ship of faith.
Speaker 3 (37:44):
So that number of ten, boy, that was a surprising
number to me.
Speaker 1 (37:49):
That's troubling. And as father alluded to earlier, at a
time when young people and we saw it over Easter
in France, in the United States, huge numbers coming to
be baptized, and they're all young people and a lot
of them are guys. I've seen them. I saw them
at Old Saint Patrick's Church down in the village. You know,
here are all these young guys coming to be baptized.
(38:10):
What is driving that? And here's the real challenge for
the cardinals. Are the young people that are coming. Are
they coming for the church you're giving them and the
church that is and was, or will they find some
other church presented to them that they didn't sign up for?
And that to me is the biggest concern. And if
(38:31):
they were, if they're worried about the future, they should
look to that father.
Speaker 4 (38:35):
Yeah, agreement, Raymond, is exactly. You know, the enthusiasm in
the church is based on enthusiasm for the eternal truths,
the permanent things, and then the mystical things. You know,
the mystery of life does not consist in fixing the plumbing.
Plumbing is important, but that's not why we call a priest,
you know. So you know, the pope's job is not
(38:57):
to be chief advisor to wellness project of the United Nations.
Speaker 5 (39:02):
You know, it has to be how do we get people.
Speaker 4 (39:05):
To recognize Jesus's Lord and then accept his teaching and
then live in accordance with it. And Cardinal Sarah famously
wrote a book called God or Nothing, and I think
that really should be the motto of those going into
the Senate, into the conflict. Rather, we're here to serve God,
otherwise nothing matters.
Speaker 1 (39:23):
Well. You also said something early on about candor and
Archbishop charleship Hew, formerly of Philadelphia, he wrote a great piece,
very short piece, but he said, I have lovely and
warm memories of Pope Francis. But and interregnum, the time
between the death of the pope and the election of another,
it's a time for candor, he said. It's a time
(39:43):
to candidly say this is what we went through, and
this is what we need, this is what needs fixing.
And unless the cardinals are willing to do that, and
all of us, everybody listening, and those of us here,
unless we're willing to engage in that same candor, I
worry about the outcome here because it collapses into nostalgia.
And you know, isn't it wonderful? And police pray for
(40:05):
us all and you know, a sainted pope. It's just
it's not reality. I'll give you all each the last
word of what you're looking forward to in the week ahead.
Bob will start with you.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Well, I mentioned it earlier.
Speaker 2 (40:18):
I really hope that what we're going to see is
a kind of an increasing diversity of views.
Speaker 3 (40:24):
I think is the way to look at it.
Speaker 2 (40:25):
That as people begin to know one another and they
feel a little bit more comfortable with one another, they're
willing to venture out and raise some questions. Because we
were all told, you know, we just mentioned these young people,
that there was going to be a Francis effect that
was going to draw people into the church, draw.
Speaker 3 (40:41):
Young people into the church and whatnot. We haven't seen that.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
And the church is hemorrhaging people left and right, and
in the United States, here in Europe, and it seems
to be strong in Africa and a few other places.
But if we want a global effect of really bringing
the Gospel of Jesus Christ two people so that they
come to Christ themselves, I think we need to set
off in a different direction. We had twelve years of mercy, mercy, mercy,
(41:08):
and I think we need something else right now. And
I think why is observers of the church in the
world at this point, we'll lash onto that and maybe
we'll be surprised that some of the opinions we start
to see.
Speaker 4 (41:20):
A peer Father Gerald Murray, Yeah, Raymond, I would say,
I'm looking forward to hearing more public expressions of what's
going on in these general congregations. And I'm looking forward
to hearing what I would say is basic Christianity being
put forward as the most important criteria here. Yeah, when
(41:41):
that cardinal or whoever you know gets up at a
meeting and says X y Z, I hope we'll could
also get in front of the microphone and tell us,
because in the age of communications, it's not enough to
tell people we know what we're doing, you know, trust us.
We have to say, tell us what you want, We'll
support it if it sounds good.
Speaker 5 (42:00):
So that would be what I'd look forward to.
Speaker 4 (42:02):
More information, more sharing, and then to be quite honest,
more Cardinal Sarah, approach God or nothing.
Speaker 1 (42:10):
We will check in with you all Monday in the
lead up to the conclave. Conclave begins Wednesday, May seventh,
and then it's really secret ballots. We'll just be watching
the smoke and trying to shape the reaction on the
outside for you. I hope this has giving you a
little insight into the movements of the conclave before it begins.
(42:31):
Will have much more for you on the candidates and
other issues surrounding this in the days ahead. This Arroyo
Grande series Conclave Crew Vatican addition continues. Don't miss an episode,
go subscribe. Robert Royal, Father Gerald Murray. We will convene again.
I'm Raimond Arroyo from the Vatican. See you next time.
(42:51):
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get
your podcasts. Spoken conscis Spoken Percast and specs Spoken spokes
Percasts
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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