November 5, 2025 • 36 mins
How did a song, a stripper, and one man’s vision create America’s Team? In this fascinating Arroyo Grande episode, Raymond Arroyo sits down with Burk Murchison, son of Clint Murchison Jr., the original owner and visionary behind the Dallas Cowboys. Together, they uncover the surprising origins of the team, the building of Texas Stadium, and how the Cowboys Cheerleaders came to be.
Burk shares incredible stories from his book Hole in the Roof, including how his father bought the Washington Redskins’ fight song and used it to secure the Dallas franchise, and how innovations like luxury suites and corporate sponsorships reshaped the NFL. He also reflects on Tom Landry’s genius, the Cowboys’ decades of success, and how the team’s founding ideals contrast with today’s NFL.
A lively, eye-opening look at how Clint Murchison Jr.’s imagination built America’s Team—and forever changed the game.
Arroyo Grande is hosted by Raymond Arroyo in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and DP Studios. Subscribe for more untold American stories and cultural deep dives.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I am fascinated by the origins of things, and the
Dallas Cowboys really reimagine sports franchises and remade the NFL.
And wait until you hear where those Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders
came from. Bert Murchison was there at the founding. His father, Clint,
was the first owner and visionary of the Cowboys. This
is an origin story you don't want to miss all
(00:22):
on this edition of the Arroyo Grande Show. Come on,
I'm Raymond Arroyo. Welcome to Arroyo Grande. Go subscribe to
the show. Now turn those notifications on so you know
what's coming. And we'd so appreciate it if you like it,
(00:44):
so others can enjoy the show as well, and go
to Raymondarroyo dot com if you'd like to support our work.
Now to our deep dive. They are known as America's team,
but the founding of the Dallas Cowboys and the construction
of Texas Stadium really set the path for all NFL franchises.
Clint Murchison Junior was the team's first owner and their visionary.
(01:07):
I sat down with his son Burke Murchison recently in
Dallas to talk about his Dad's vision, his book, Hole
in the roof, the Dallas Cowboys, Clint Murchison Junior and
the stadium that changed American sports forever, and the origins
of those famous Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. Something incredible happens in
(01:28):
nineteen sixty seven when a stripper named Bubbles Cash comes
from the upper tier of the Texas Stadium and saunters
down and she electrifies the stadium. How did that lead
to the evolution of the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, you know, it just it was so interesting because
she she at the time, was buying to be kind
of the stripper in Dallas, Texas, and she was competing
with a lady named Candy Bar and so she thought
this would be a great forum to kind of show
her talent. All yeah, she kind of sashaging down. She
(02:12):
got the mini skirt, the leopard spotted many skirt and
uh cotton Candy and all this coming down, his hair
going everywhere, you know, big hair. It's just phenomenal. But
everybody in the crowd went went nuts in the stadium
immediately around her and everywhere, even to the point that
Don Merrit and and the team in the huddle suddenly
(02:33):
like heard all this and they just broke huddle and
looked up. See but was just simple at total distraction. Wow,
and and and and and afterwards, you know, I think
it was just kind of it showed up in the
papers and it was highly common and on and and
and then afterwards, uh, later in the week, Uh uh
(02:54):
tex Shram who kind of decided he has you know,
kind of had came up with all the good ideas
the Cowboys ever did. But the general manager the general manager,
but he met with Mitch Lewis, who was a pr person.
They knew a good friend of dads who did a
lot of work for the Cowboys, and they would have
a drink periodically together and the next time they got together,
(03:15):
Mitch said, look, this is the missing ingredient for your cheerleaders,
you know, because they kind of fumbled around with cheerleaders.
They used high school cheerleaders and they were just knowing
they were just nothing like you see in college. They
were just kind of ignored. And you know, we got
to do more, and so sex sells and so they
began working kind of in that direction. They added some cheerleaders,
(03:39):
not the current version, but they did some you know,
trying to find some models. But it wasn't just looks.
It was more there needed to be some kind of
like acting going on, sex appeal and the floor show. Yeah,
floor show going on, and that's what and that's what.
And then by the time in seventy three work leading
up to that, Tex realized that and I think gave
(04:02):
him well, he was a very bright man. He gave
it a lot of thought. He actually recruited theater uh choreographer,
choreographer from theater to head it up. And then the
process so they added the dance portion and those kind
of routines with a high kicking and oh yeah, well
then and then and then Tex said, well, we need
(04:23):
a uniform for these people. And it turns out he
was friends with a lady's dress owner of shop in
prest Royal Village which is right near in town in town, uh,
and and went to this man and goes, we need
to design it. Do you have somebody And so one
of his suppliers there was a tailor, a lady with
(04:46):
one of the suppliers, Paul van Wagner. Oh my gosh,
you know, and they asked he designed that classic He said,
he sat down her boss came to her said we need,
we need a uniform. And she took She said, she
took three hours short shorts and short shorts. What do
you call these big boots? High boots and all that
(05:07):
and the colors, and presented in that uniform. And and
she actually went to the Smithsonian a couple of years ago,
and I were reading your book.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I was just I was I could not believe that
the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders really were inspired by a pair
of strippers coming down the aisle. Eventually, Okay, you learn
something new every day, that's right. Tell me, first of all,
how your dad, Clint Murkison Junior, founded America's team, the
(05:39):
Dallas Cowboys.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
How did this come to be? You know, it's that's
an interesting question. It's one I've given a lot of
thought to obviously, and and it just became a parent
that he uh, well, Number one, he was a goal setter,
and he always set goals growing up, and at some
point he must just set one. I think he became
infatuate with football. He was not a player and not
(06:03):
really a true athlete. He was small and and kind
of puny is you know, going through high high school
and thanks, but you know, he played intermural football and things,
and I think he just grew to love the game
and started with college football. And I remember growing up
in our family home, we'd have black and white TV
on and back then there's pre Cowboys, there being the
(06:26):
Chicago Bears. We fell in there kind of like region
or something and just boring asself. But Dad would always
have the game on and it was just something that
he he focused on and became something that he wanted
to act on. And he was a goal setter, which
is really incredible. And he wanted to bring the team
to Dallas. He wanted to think to Dallas. Yes, very
(06:46):
definitely have one, except you know, he was around. He
had moved back to Dallas with my mother and older
brother in the late forties after World War two, and
at that point, you know, college football was big. There's
dope Walker that's in cotton bowls around. And then the Texans.
There was a franchise, kind of an unknown, unheard of franchise,
(07:08):
the Dallas Texans. It was founded in nineteen fifty two
by a group of business people and that was a
miserable failure. They were under capitalized and didn't even make
it to the season and Bert Bell the commissioner then
that was prior to Pete Roselle, but Burt Bell's commissioner
then ended up taking over the team. They finished up
(07:30):
the season playing it away games. They ceased they ceased
playing at.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Home because they couldn't get people to turn that.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah and yeah, nobody. Well, and you know that was
I mean, Dallas at that point was a high school
in college town rather than pro football. And but you
know that's all that's going on, and actually wanted to.
He bought when they for that season, he bought twenty
season tickets himself. He was probably the only one that
(07:58):
seems like this.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But then in the late fifties, I mean, I was
amazed as I read your book A Hole in the Roof,
which is about the building of the stadium, which I'm
going to get to in a minute. The vision he
had to bring a pro team to Dallas, and he
was obsessed with this idea. So the late fifties he
tries to launch the Cowboys, and the owner of the Redskins, this.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Is in fifty nine, is when he actually acquired the franchise.
Their opening season was in nineteen sixties. But you know,
behind the scenes. The acquisition of the franchise occurred in
fifty nine, and at that point there was no I
think the Redskins were the only team south of the
(08:48):
Mason Dixon line. And George Preston Marshall, the owner of
that team, he had bought something. They'd been in Boston.
They'd been in Boston, they moved into DC, changed the
name became the Redskins. He had a series of radio
stations that ran through the southeast and kind of towards
the southwest, and he decided, like everything south of the
(09:08):
Mason Dictionon was his his territory. Yeah, and so he
didn't want the Cowboys, and and and so he was
Dad was concerned. I think they I think they could
have one Veto, you know, you could have one team Veto,
but you couldn't have two. And he was concerned that
somehow he would get some traction and recruit another another
owner to vote against the expansion franchise. And so Dad
(09:31):
wanted to was working to you know, it took certain
means to convince him to come on the you know,
to vote in favor of the franchise itself.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, and that led to that, Yeah, let's tell people
your father. Clint Murkison does something kind of unique here.
He comes across. Was it an ex wife of the
owner of.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
The Rich Yes, she was a silent movie star and
they've been married like twenty some odd years and and
and just at the timing of this, she apparently wrote
the lyrics for UH for the Redskins UH song song,
and and and Barney Breskin was the band, the band manager.
I mean this kind of entertainment, halftime entertainment, you know,
(10:18):
that was you know, that's what George Preston Marshall just
loved this. He loved this more about than fielding a
winning team. It was really just it was a.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Bizarre man, but he was obsessed with this song Hart song, Yeah,
and the lyrics that went with it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah. And so what they they approached a friend of
dad's who was a lobbyist, Tom Webb, and somehow he
knew Barney or something. They approached him and said, look,
can you buy this from us? And and and she
joined him and so they bought the lyrics and the
and the song, the music for this, okay, And then
(10:52):
there was and then at some point as they were
meeting down in Miami for the vote and stuff, and
Dad called, uh, called George Preston Marshall and said, you know,
the beginning discussion, and it came clear during the discussion
that Dad owned those rights and if George wanted to
maintain the ownership or regain it, he's going to have
(11:14):
to vote for the Cowboys. And it was just it
led to it just led to kind of a sad
but funny kind of series of events that followed in
the years that followed in terms of pranks that the
dad would play with because it's just a shame. It
seemed like Marsha was just somewhat clueless. His ex wife
(11:35):
refair to him as the Marshal without a plan was
really I thought it was really great.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
But I love that the Cowboys were basically founded from
by holding a song hostage. Yeah, I mean, that's kind
of how it happened, and without that they may never
have been.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It was a different time and expansion was a new
thing for the NFL. You know, they'd failed tenures or
less than ten years before in Dallas, and so there
was a lot on the line here.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And why were the people in Dallas, the city council,
the people, the planners, the officials. Why were they so
hostile reluctant to adopt your father's idea of not only
bringing the team to town, but more importantly, he wanted
to have an arts and sports complex downtown.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, they didn't like that. They didn't oppose his founding
atteam in Dallas as long as they played the Cotton Bowl.
And they see the Cotton Bowl. Fair Park was the
site it was built. Well, the study of pre existed that,
but in thirty sixth they had to buy Centennial, Texas.
By Centennial, it was at fair Park, which was you know,
(12:46):
had been around right, But a lot of things were
built for that, and over time, the entertainment, the museums,
the severalws, the art museums, the natural history museum, the
science museum they acquire, they all just kind of gravitated
down there and that became kind of the hub of cultural,
(13:06):
uh and sports activity down there. But what happened is
that over time, with the changes in movement of population stuff,
that it kind of died out.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
But your dad did not care for the Cotton Bowl.
That's where the Dallas Cowboys had their opening seasons.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
What was the problem. It was just an aging, out
of date thing. That had fallen disrepair, that had been
built and added to in the late forties when doak
Walker was such a phenomenon. They added upper decks and
but it was just they was never well maintained or
kept by the city. And Dad just thought, and it
(13:46):
was in the area of town. It was there. It
was deficient parking within walking distance of the stateium. You
had to park in people's yards in the surrounding neighborhood,
all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And so your dad wanted to build a new stadium
very definitely. The place became Irving, Texas.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Why there, Well, he had wanted, you know, all the time.
When he first started, you know, this idea of acting
on this idea of building a stadium, he kind of
looked down at fair Park just to replace the cotton
Boat within the maybe even smaller stadium. But he was
looking down there, but mainly because he didn't think that
(14:22):
there was real estate affordable to place the stadium elsewhere.
And as he did research and as he got involved,
they were a merchant brothers. His partnership with his brother
was involved with some downtown buildings and whatnot, construction and
whatnot down on the western end of town. And as
he as he kind of like just you know, was
(14:43):
out there and learning more. He realized that there was
properties down there that were affordable that you could actually
build a stadium out. He was really an innovator.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I mean, tell us where this vision came from. What
was his concept for what became Texas Stadium.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, you know, he he was affectionists and he was
a visionary and it was interesting and he had this
mind in mind from the time the Cowboys were founded.
This stadium thing was in the back of his mind
because I know when they when he went to he
went to all the away games, and when he go
he made a point of sitting down with the crowd,
not in the owner's box, but he wanted to sit
(15:22):
down with the crowd and get a sense of the stadium,
the pros and cons of it. And he was like
building building heads in his head, building ideas as to
as to what that would work and didn't work. And
he was all about policing the spectator and providing as
great as good an experience with the spectator as possible.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Tell me how big an influence the astrodome was in
his mind.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
It you know, I think it just it opened his
I think it opened his eyes to the possibility. He
was moving ahead with his own plans when that happened,
and there were things about it, and he saw that, uh,
you know that it kind of it showed that it
was possible. A couple of things that again it was
(16:09):
these were kind of in this case, it was kind
of a criticism. He didn't. He didn't. It didn't allow
because it was totally domed and covered. It didn't allow
the elements to be involved in all. He thought that
was a mistake. And he also was in favor of
the sole purpose, single purpose stadium football baseball. That one
has combined it and they had to move stands around. Yeah,
(16:30):
and and and when you do that, you get compromised
in terms of your seating and the experience of the spectator.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Why the hole in the roof which became the defining
mark of the technology.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That was allowed the elements to be involved. And I
think bottom line, I think deep down he wanted that
like natural grass on the field, and he could they
couldn't didn't do it. They didn't. You know, I don't
know if you realize, but in Phoenix they had natural grass,
but they actually moved the whole field outside the dome
grow yes, when the games aren't playing, and then they
(17:02):
move it back in. I did not. It is bizarre,
and they spent a ton of money doing that. So
he didn't go to that extreme. And so they did
have natural turf.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
But but the luxury suites, the sponsorships, all of that
is your father, Clint Murkison's innovation.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Oh yeah, the way it was financed, that's very interesting
because he when he first, you know, he got he
was shunned by Dallas and he knew that he always
held out hope that he would be able to do
a downtown stadium, and he just you know, he optioned,
even optioned fifty acres of property down on the west
(17:40):
you know, it's kind of the southwestern sector of Dallas,
in order to as a starting point for all this
kind of stuff. So he did that, but he knew
he needed to have an option and so he reached out.
He kind of looked at Arlington, which is where AT
and T Stadium is now located, and Dallas was a
different place that was for worth a different places. And
(18:02):
he says, I just can't ask my fans to come
to drop all the way out the way for that
because there was a stadium out there or there was
property available, and so it was through a friend, Max Thomas,
who was a Dallas business guy. It was a friend
of Ads but was from Irving And it was Max
and some other locals that actually introduced Dad to the city,
(18:24):
to the mayor out there, Lynn Brown, it was his name.
He was an incumbent mayor five terms or something, and
that's a story, but it was it was. Max also
helped him locate the property that there was eighty five
acre tear drop shape property that Dad ended up identifying
(18:44):
and optioning and ultimately purchasing.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Tell me how Texas Stadium really becomes the prototype for
all the NFL stadiums we've seen since then.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, you just look at where it's located, it said,
they call it it's like a influence of three freeways,
and its surrounded. There's there's plenty of parking. Uh, there's
plenty of parking. Uh. It's very successible, you know. It
just then in terms of the experience, So that parking
was a big deal because that was a problem right
here at the Cotton Bowls. He really focused on parking
(19:16):
and in terms of the stadium, you know, he wanted
to do chairback seats because we had out here at benches,
benches out here, uh at at at the cotton Bowl.
So everything he was trying to counter with the Cotton
Bowl and make it even more appealing to the fan
in terms of their acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And the corporate sponsorship. I mean he coined this idea
of attaching corporate sponsorship.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Well that was at sea, that came. That came later
a little bit. I think the sponsored I think what
you may be thinking about are the circle suites of
the tree suite. There were two levels of those that
that there had been in certain cases in other stadiums
there there was a suite or two, but nothing on
a commercial scale. And he actually had two levels between
(20:01):
the top and bottom decks, two levels, one hundred seventy
eight suites priced that and he was ended up. He
didn't know how to price these things. Nobody knew what
people do, but he priced at fifty thousand unfinished shell space,
and so people would buy them and then come in
with their decorator and finish him out as well. So
you had one hundred and seventy eight different designs. It
(20:22):
was fascinating, and there was one like incredible to a
photo was in the book It's a lowis the fourteenth
solid if you saw that, I wish chandeliers law. We
were hopefully to dode in cover color. But he had
like blue dark blue carpeting and stuff. I mean, it
was it was outrageous, but I mean it was that
the kind of creatative he saw and it it just
(20:42):
he caught people's imagination and it took the whole experience
to another level.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
How did he find Tom Landry?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's that's interesting because his first hire was Text Ramp,
the general manager right who came out of the Los
Angeles RAM organization, and he had had done it. He
had to help George Hollis of the Chicago Bears very
helpful to him. He had helped him identify tex RAM
and then and then Text basically in his own mind.
(21:12):
He had hired and worked with Sid Gilman, who was
another coach who went on after the the new League
came into being, the AFL came into being, went on
to coach Santa Chargers. Very good coach, experienced coach, had
coached Rams and the Chargers. But but Dad, he got
word through from friends that you know Alicia Landry text
(21:33):
of Tom's wife lived was from Dallas and they would
come back. He coached in their season up for New York.
He was a player player coach and then defensive coach,
and so he was, you know, highly recommended. And it
was really Dad that really, uh you know, came is
the one that made that selection as opposed to tax
(21:55):
and that's some Tech kind of did everything or took
took credit for everything. But in this case, Dad, it
was It was interesting because I think, uh, he had
I mean, Tom Landry was a genius and Dad had
a ton of respect for him. And but there they
kind of thought the same because Tom and his on
the off undergraduate wise had gotten a degree in chemical engineering.
(22:18):
Dad was an electoral engineer by education, and so they
kind of like thought the same. And that's a that's
a that's a statement, that observation that Joe Bailey, who
worked for text Ram kind of made. He's still living
and we've talked about it, but it's really fascinating, I think,
and it was really Dad that caused text you know
that they worked together and Dad, you know, they ended
(22:41):
up hiring Landry as a coach, and that's it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Tell me tell me about from sixty six, for the
next twenty years the Dallas Cowboys have winning seasons in
that Texas stadium. What was the magic there?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Well, it's just everything came together, you know. I mean
Tom Landrew was on a had a player, it's like
a five year player, and he didn't quite meet that
because I think they ended up they were set back.
One of the setbacks is in the first year, they
didn't weren't able to participate in the draft, and so
(23:18):
they were just you know, they were signing a few
free agents like doubt Don Meredith, and there was a
running back, good running back, Don Perkinson, so they had that,
but they didn't and so it kind of set him back.
But by sixty six is when they won and they
played the Green Bay Great green Bay Packers in the
Cotton Bowl in a fabulous game, one of the best
(23:39):
games they ever been to nineteen and it was pre Berger.
So it was like, what's interesting also is that is
that had we won that game, so we beat Let's see,
we lost the green Bay. Green Bay went on and
played the Kansas City Chiefs in the in the first
(24:01):
but had we won that, we would have been in
that vers and we would have been matched up against
the Dallas Texans who were founded that the same year
the Calier were, and we competed. Dad and the team
competed not on the field, but it commercially for three
or four years before before Lamar Harnt decided to move
(24:23):
into Kansas City. But we would have played them in
the first of It has just been a phenomenal thing.
And also if you think about it, had we we
lost that game, just we should have won that game. Frankly,
the next year it was the Ice Bowl in Rain Bay.
We should have won that game. Lost, But had we
won those two, those two championship games, it would probably
(24:43):
be the Landry Trophy rather than the Lombardi Trophy. Wow,
I mean you think of that. I mean things turned
on just two games in terms of that, because Landry's
success from starting at sixty six through the time Dad
sold the team after the eighty three season, that's I
think that's eighteen years winning record playoffs every year, five
(25:07):
Super Bowls, uh and two and two victories and it's
Super Bowls incredible in that period of time. I mean,
it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Has your father's vision, I mean, your dad coined and
created what we know of now as the modern day
NFL stadium. Has his vision been perverted in your mind?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, I think a little bit. It just depends on
what these owners owners want, and and and I don't
recall when you know they were Jerry Jones, rather than
renovate and do things at Texas Stadium, he chose to
move them to a new venue. He wanted to start over.
His vision was entirely different. And Dad was all about
(25:54):
the experience of the spectator, sidelines, access comfort, all that
kind of Jerry Jones. His his mantra was more and
he actually had a T shirt out is Bigger is Better.
So they had the outline of AT and T Stadium
over over reaching the outline of Texas Stadium, on the
(26:15):
on the traffics, on the hurt stuff, and really, I
mean and so he's all I mean. And what he's
what he's always you know, kind of commented on, is
he's all about the money. And he ended up with
eighty you know, a studying with eighty thousand capacity of
eighty thousand spectators seated another twenty there standing room for
(26:36):
another twenty and and it just it was just a
different priority really and and Dad was about the experience.
Jones was more about just packings mean people. We can't
end there.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
When Jerry Jones bought the team, he bought the lease
to the Texas Stadium, and people laughed at him.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Why was that a good idea? It was a good
idea because they had a profit potential that he identified
and people didn't realized that that that But what it
took is that the need what you were able in
order to uh uh you know, make that take advantage
of that, you had to have a winning team. You
had to pull people in and and Jimmy Johnson was
(27:15):
able to turn that that team around with this a
matter of like three years. They were they went to
the back to the super Bowl, and the excitement that
caused in the community and the and it's just a
surge of interest in buying the tech. It's just a
long story. But then they were able to take advantage
to add new suites, sell these commercials, sell these luxury suites,
(27:35):
and and it just ended up being just a you know,
the the commercial success followed the success on the on
the on the fields.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
When they when the Texas Stadium finally came down, they
tore it down, there were three buttresses still standing.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What did that mean to you? Oh, that's interesting. You
know people have had said they had different ideas about that.
Somebody said they kind of symbolized what Landry Shrem and
Gil Brandt maybe or something or Dad. I don't know,
they're just you know, but it was it was you know,
that was an emotional day, but it was you know,
(28:16):
it's something that that And what's interesting there is is
that occurred in twenty ten after the Cowboys had moved
to AT and T a year later in the spring
a year later. But that had been negotiated way back
in early two thousands when the Cowboys had made a
decision that they were going to leave Texas Stadium and
(28:37):
relocate in Arlington. And that was something that came down
between a negotiation between Herbert Gears, the mayor at the
time of Herba, and Jerry Jones. And he, you know,
Jones's big negotiating point was he wanted the stadium torn down,
demolish because he moving to the new stadium. He didn't
(28:57):
want any competition for college games, high school, non cowboy stuff.
He wanted it all there. So he made and you know,
Irving got things in return monetarily and stuff that they
negotiated for but ended up so that decision happened almost
you know, way before, to move itself in the to
the new stadium.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, they've had a string of bad luck though since
they moved to that new house. Maybe they should have
stayed in Texas Stadium a little longer. I mean, the
good luck charm is clearly there.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I mean, well so much, you know, I mean, it's
just you know, it's management style and things, and I
don't know how much you want to get into that.
But dad, Dad was a hands off kind of guy.
You know. He hired the people, He hired the best
and let them tell let them run it, and just stood.
But he was in Texas at some point referred to
(29:49):
him as the glue that kept our operation organization together,
which is true because he was always there to do
to support him and back them up when they when
they were challenged for one reason another.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
What did your dad have that you don't see in
these NFL franchises today? And what do you think he'd
think watching this, seeing this and the way that his
team has evolved.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Oh he would. He remained a cowboyd fan throughout I
mean after he's old. I remember going back he was
in bad chet physically and whatnot health was. But I
remember going visiting him in his he had kind of
a sitting room where office sitting room we watch and said,
and he'd watch all the games, he'd be there and
and I don't know, I think I think there would
(30:38):
be he was. So I'm sure he's proud about what
he did. He was proud about the honor Wroughte, the
Dallas turning the team around and not turning the team
were getting established and making a winner and said, so,
I guess, I mean, it'd be hard to say. I
would assume he'd be disappointed. And why, Well, I mean,
I just think there's a I think if if you know,
(31:00):
you can follow his model and if you find the
right people, I think he can bring the stability that
you can find success and and uh, and I think
they just kind of you know, gotten off the path
kind of and and and really the model that Jones
is Jerry Jones uses now in terms of the you know,
(31:20):
owner management coach is more like it's an outmoded model
that the last person UH to use it was at
UH at Oakland. He was the owner GM of the
Al Davis And when when Jones was just first getting started,
Owl was still around and Jones really they they bonded
(31:45):
and I think he picked up a lot of his
somehow he appreciated his philosophy and wanted to kind of
like he became a little bit his his role model
very hands on, very hands on, and and uh, you know,
to to an excess, and particularly when you it just
got so complicated. I mean when you look at managing
anything and stuff particularly and there's so much competition, you
(32:08):
got to be And Jones is a really bright guy,
but I mean it's just I think you need to
find people with specialized talent and it trusts them to
do their job, trust them, and he just he just
kind of has floundered there. And I'm not sure why
it's a tragedy that has occurred.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
There's something I ask every guest on a Royal Grande.
I have a questionnaire, rapid fire questions. You don't have
to think deeply about these. Who's the person you most.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Admire My wife? Why? Oh, she's solids raw And I
would agree with that. I know his wife at least
is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Who's the person you most detest.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh, my gosh, there's a satan. Well, I guess I
guess that counts.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
What's your best feature?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
My best feature? I think that a pretty good sense.
You do have a good sense of humor. What do
you fear? I just fear change with respect to our
country and the civility of our country and what the
world that's being introduced to our children, grandchildren, children and grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
What is the thing you know that no one else does.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
That I know? Oh? I think maybe probably just internally
like the uh uh like like like a lack of
self confidence. Mm hmm. Wow. What's the best advice you
ever received? Oh, there's one that comes out of this uh.
(33:49):
I didn't use it in the book that I've learned
it since. And that's in terms of goal setting and
a plan. A plan without a goal, without a plan
is just to dream. Mmm. So boy, is that true?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
If you could not do what you're doing now, what
would you do?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh, what I'm doing now, I'd be on the beach. No,
I'd be I'd love I love fishing. I love the Bahamas.
We talked about the Bahamas. Yah. I love fishing, just
being out in the water with the people. What happens
when this is over. What's this now?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, whatever you want it to be, could be this interview,
could be this life.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I don't know, that's up to you. Well, you know,
hopefully end up with our Lord and says her Savior,
Jesus Christ. That's a perfect answer. Yeah, thank you, thank
you so much. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Okay, here's the hole. I love how Burke's dad, Clint Murchison,
he was undeterred and trying to establish his team in Dallas.
He tried to buy franchises in other cities, but none
of them would sell. So the decisive moment was now,
I hope you picked up on it. It was his
his decision to buy the Washington Redskins fight Song, which
he basically held as a ransom against George Preston Marshall,
(35:08):
the owner of the Redskins. Sometimes to get what you need,
you have to consider what your competitor values. Most smart move, Clint,
and it's the reason why the Cowboys, by the way,
ended up having the team in Dallas. But did you
know they were almost called the Dallas Steers. At the
last minute, Murchison changed the name to the Dallas Cowboys.
(35:31):
He's up for consideration to be included in the Football
Hall of Fame. How Clint Murchison has been overlooked all
this time as a mystery to me. Let's hope they
fix it this year.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
We'll keep you posted.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
I hope you'll come back to a Royal Grande soon.
Why live a dry, constricted life when if you fill
it with good things it can flow into a broad,
driving Arroyo Grande.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
I'm raming to Royo.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Make sure you subscribe like this episode, Thanks for diving in,
and we'll see you next time. Royo Grande produced in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts and DP Studios, and is available
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
I am fascinated by the origins of things, and the
Dallas Cowboys really reimagine sports franchises and remade the NFL.
And wait until you hear where those Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders
came from. Bert Murchison was there at the founding. His father, Clint,
was the first owner and visionary of the Cowboys. This
is an origin story you don't want to miss all
(00:22):
on this edition of the Arroyo Grande Show. Come on,
I'm Raymond Arroyo. Welcome to Arroyo Grande. Go subscribe to
the show. Now turn those notifications on so you know
what's coming. And we'd so appreciate it if you like it,
(00:44):
so others can enjoy the show as well, and go
to Raymondarroyo dot com if you'd like to support our work.
Now to our deep dive. They are known as America's team,
but the founding of the Dallas Cowboys and the construction
of Texas Stadium really set the path for all NFL franchises.
Clint Murchison Junior was the team's first owner and their visionary.
(01:07):
I sat down with his son Burke Murchison recently in
Dallas to talk about his Dad's vision, his book, Hole
in the roof, the Dallas Cowboys, Clint Murchison Junior and
the stadium that changed American sports forever, and the origins
of those famous Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders. Something incredible happens in
(01:28):
nineteen sixty seven when a stripper named Bubbles Cash comes
from the upper tier of the Texas Stadium and saunters
down and she electrifies the stadium. How did that lead
to the evolution of the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, you know, it just it was so interesting because
she she at the time, was buying to be kind
of the stripper in Dallas, Texas, and she was competing
with a lady named Candy Bar and so she thought
this would be a great forum to kind of show
her talent. All yeah, she kind of sashaging down. She
(02:12):
got the mini skirt, the leopard spotted many skirt and
uh cotton Candy and all this coming down, his hair
going everywhere, you know, big hair. It's just phenomenal. But
everybody in the crowd went went nuts in the stadium
immediately around her and everywhere, even to the point that
Don Merrit and and the team in the huddle suddenly
(02:33):
like heard all this and they just broke huddle and
looked up. See but was just simple at total distraction. Wow,
and and and and and afterwards, you know, I think
it was just kind of it showed up in the
papers and it was highly common and on and and
and then afterwards, uh, later in the week, Uh uh
(02:54):
tex Shram who kind of decided he has you know,
kind of had came up with all the good ideas
the Cowboys ever did. But the general manager the general manager,
but he met with Mitch Lewis, who was a pr person.
They knew a good friend of dads who did a
lot of work for the Cowboys, and they would have
a drink periodically together and the next time they got together,
(03:15):
Mitch said, look, this is the missing ingredient for your cheerleaders,
you know, because they kind of fumbled around with cheerleaders.
They used high school cheerleaders and they were just knowing
they were just nothing like you see in college. They
were just kind of ignored. And you know, we got
to do more, and so sex sells and so they
began working kind of in that direction. They added some cheerleaders,
(03:39):
not the current version, but they did some you know,
trying to find some models. But it wasn't just looks.
It was more there needed to be some kind of
like acting going on, sex appeal and the floor show. Yeah,
floor show going on, and that's what and that's what.
And then by the time in seventy three work leading
up to that, Tex realized that and I think gave
(04:02):
him well, he was a very bright man. He gave
it a lot of thought. He actually recruited theater uh choreographer,
choreographer from theater to head it up. And then the
process so they added the dance portion and those kind
of routines with a high kicking and oh yeah, well
then and then and then Tex said, well, we need
(04:23):
a uniform for these people. And it turns out he
was friends with a lady's dress owner of shop in
prest Royal Village which is right near in town in town, uh,
and and went to this man and goes, we need
to design it. Do you have somebody And so one
of his suppliers there was a tailor, a lady with
(04:46):
one of the suppliers, Paul van Wagner. Oh my gosh,
you know, and they asked he designed that classic He said,
he sat down her boss came to her said we need,
we need a uniform. And she took She said, she
took three hours short shorts and short shorts. What do
you call these big boots? High boots and all that
(05:07):
and the colors, and presented in that uniform. And and
she actually went to the Smithsonian a couple of years ago,
and I were reading your book.
Speaker 1 (05:17):
I was just I was I could not believe that
the Dallas Cowboy cheerleaders really were inspired by a pair
of strippers coming down the aisle. Eventually, Okay, you learn
something new every day, that's right. Tell me, first of all,
how your dad, Clint Murkison Junior, founded America's team, the
(05:39):
Dallas Cowboys.
Speaker 2 (05:40):
How did this come to be? You know, it's that's
an interesting question. It's one I've given a lot of
thought to obviously, and and it just became a parent
that he uh, well, Number one, he was a goal setter,
and he always set goals growing up, and at some
point he must just set one. I think he became
infatuate with football. He was not a player and not
(06:03):
really a true athlete. He was small and and kind
of puny is you know, going through high high school
and thanks, but you know, he played intermural football and things,
and I think he just grew to love the game
and started with college football. And I remember growing up
in our family home, we'd have black and white TV
on and back then there's pre Cowboys, there being the
(06:26):
Chicago Bears. We fell in there kind of like region
or something and just boring asself. But Dad would always
have the game on and it was just something that
he he focused on and became something that he wanted
to act on. And he was a goal setter, which
is really incredible. And he wanted to bring the team
to Dallas. He wanted to think to Dallas. Yes, very
(06:46):
definitely have one, except you know, he was around. He
had moved back to Dallas with my mother and older
brother in the late forties after World War two, and
at that point, you know, college football was big. There's
dope Walker that's in cotton bowls around. And then the Texans.
There was a franchise, kind of an unknown, unheard of franchise,
(07:08):
the Dallas Texans. It was founded in nineteen fifty two
by a group of business people and that was a
miserable failure. They were under capitalized and didn't even make
it to the season and Bert Bell the commissioner then
that was prior to Pete Roselle, but Burt Bell's commissioner
then ended up taking over the team. They finished up
(07:30):
the season playing it away games. They ceased they ceased
playing at.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Home because they couldn't get people to turn that.
Speaker 2 (07:37):
Yeah and yeah, nobody. Well, and you know that was
I mean, Dallas at that point was a high school
in college town rather than pro football. And but you
know that's all that's going on, and actually wanted to.
He bought when they for that season, he bought twenty
season tickets himself. He was probably the only one that
(07:58):
seems like this.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
But then in the late fifties, I mean, I was
amazed as I read your book A Hole in the Roof,
which is about the building of the stadium, which I'm
going to get to in a minute. The vision he
had to bring a pro team to Dallas, and he
was obsessed with this idea. So the late fifties he
tries to launch the Cowboys, and the owner of the Redskins, this.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Is in fifty nine, is when he actually acquired the franchise.
Their opening season was in nineteen sixties. But you know,
behind the scenes. The acquisition of the franchise occurred in
fifty nine, and at that point there was no I
think the Redskins were the only team south of the
(08:48):
Mason Dixon line. And George Preston Marshall, the owner of
that team, he had bought something. They'd been in Boston.
They'd been in Boston, they moved into DC, changed the
name became the Redskins. He had a series of radio
stations that ran through the southeast and kind of towards
the southwest, and he decided, like everything south of the
(09:08):
Mason Dictionon was his his territory. Yeah, and so he
didn't want the Cowboys, and and and so he was
Dad was concerned. I think they I think they could
have one Veto, you know, you could have one team Veto,
but you couldn't have two. And he was concerned that
somehow he would get some traction and recruit another another
owner to vote against the expansion franchise. And so Dad
(09:31):
wanted to was working to you know, it took certain
means to convince him to come on the you know,
to vote in favor of the franchise itself.
Speaker 1 (09:42):
Well, and that led to that, Yeah, let's tell people
your father. Clint Murkison does something kind of unique here.
He comes across. Was it an ex wife of the
owner of.
Speaker 2 (09:54):
The Rich Yes, she was a silent movie star and
they've been married like twenty some odd years and and
and just at the timing of this, she apparently wrote
the lyrics for UH for the Redskins UH song song,
and and and Barney Breskin was the band, the band manager.
I mean this kind of entertainment, halftime entertainment, you know,
(10:18):
that was you know, that's what George Preston Marshall just
loved this. He loved this more about than fielding a
winning team. It was really just it was a.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Bizarre man, but he was obsessed with this song Hart song, Yeah,
and the lyrics that went with it.
Speaker 2 (10:31):
Yeah. And so what they they approached a friend of
dad's who was a lobbyist, Tom Webb, and somehow he
knew Barney or something. They approached him and said, look,
can you buy this from us? And and and she
joined him and so they bought the lyrics and the
and the song, the music for this, okay, And then
(10:52):
there was and then at some point as they were
meeting down in Miami for the vote and stuff, and
Dad called, uh, called George Preston Marshall and said, you know,
the beginning discussion, and it came clear during the discussion
that Dad owned those rights and if George wanted to
maintain the ownership or regain it, he's going to have
(11:14):
to vote for the Cowboys. And it was just it
led to it just led to kind of a sad
but funny kind of series of events that followed in
the years that followed in terms of pranks that the
dad would play with because it's just a shame. It
seemed like Marsha was just somewhat clueless. His ex wife
(11:35):
refair to him as the Marshal without a plan was
really I thought it was really great.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
But I love that the Cowboys were basically founded from
by holding a song hostage. Yeah, I mean, that's kind
of how it happened, and without that they may never
have been.
Speaker 2 (11:52):
It was a different time and expansion was a new
thing for the NFL. You know, they'd failed tenures or
less than ten years before in Dallas, and so there
was a lot on the line here.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
And why were the people in Dallas, the city council,
the people, the planners, the officials. Why were they so
hostile reluctant to adopt your father's idea of not only
bringing the team to town, but more importantly, he wanted
to have an arts and sports complex downtown.
Speaker 2 (12:23):
Well, they didn't like that. They didn't oppose his founding
atteam in Dallas as long as they played the Cotton Bowl.
And they see the Cotton Bowl. Fair Park was the
site it was built. Well, the study of pre existed that,
but in thirty sixth they had to buy Centennial, Texas.
By Centennial, it was at fair Park, which was you know,
(12:46):
had been around right, But a lot of things were
built for that, and over time, the entertainment, the museums,
the severalws, the art museums, the natural history museum, the
science museum they acquire, they all just kind of gravitated
down there and that became kind of the hub of cultural,
(13:06):
uh and sports activity down there. But what happened is
that over time, with the changes in movement of population stuff,
that it kind of died out.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
But your dad did not care for the Cotton Bowl.
That's where the Dallas Cowboys had their opening seasons.
Speaker 2 (13:24):
What was the problem. It was just an aging, out
of date thing. That had fallen disrepair, that had been
built and added to in the late forties when doak
Walker was such a phenomenon. They added upper decks and
but it was just they was never well maintained or
kept by the city. And Dad just thought, and it
(13:46):
was in the area of town. It was there. It
was deficient parking within walking distance of the stateium. You
had to park in people's yards in the surrounding neighborhood,
all sorts of stuff.
Speaker 1 (13:55):
And so your dad wanted to build a new stadium
very definitely. The place became Irving, Texas.
Speaker 2 (14:02):
Why there, Well, he had wanted, you know, all the time.
When he first started, you know, this idea of acting
on this idea of building a stadium, he kind of
looked down at fair Park just to replace the cotton
Boat within the maybe even smaller stadium. But he was
looking down there, but mainly because he didn't think that
(14:22):
there was real estate affordable to place the stadium elsewhere.
And as he did research and as he got involved,
they were a merchant brothers. His partnership with his brother
was involved with some downtown buildings and whatnot, construction and
whatnot down on the western end of town. And as
he as he kind of like just you know, was
(14:43):
out there and learning more. He realized that there was
properties down there that were affordable that you could actually
build a stadium out. He was really an innovator.
Speaker 1 (14:52):
I mean, tell us where this vision came from. What
was his concept for what became Texas Stadium.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
Well, you know, he he was affectionists and he was
a visionary and it was interesting and he had this
mind in mind from the time the Cowboys were founded.
This stadium thing was in the back of his mind
because I know when they when he went to he
went to all the away games, and when he go
he made a point of sitting down with the crowd,
not in the owner's box, but he wanted to sit
(15:22):
down with the crowd and get a sense of the stadium,
the pros and cons of it. And he was like
building building heads in his head, building ideas as to
as to what that would work and didn't work. And
he was all about policing the spectator and providing as
great as good an experience with the spectator as possible.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Tell me how big an influence the astrodome was in
his mind.
Speaker 2 (15:48):
It you know, I think it just it opened his
I think it opened his eyes to the possibility. He
was moving ahead with his own plans when that happened,
and there were things about it, and he saw that, uh,
you know that it kind of it showed that it
was possible. A couple of things that again it was
(16:09):
these were kind of in this case, it was kind
of a criticism. He didn't. He didn't. It didn't allow
because it was totally domed and covered. It didn't allow
the elements to be involved in all. He thought that
was a mistake. And he also was in favor of
the sole purpose, single purpose stadium football baseball. That one
has combined it and they had to move stands around. Yeah,
(16:30):
and and and when you do that, you get compromised
in terms of your seating and the experience of the spectator.
Speaker 1 (16:36):
Why the hole in the roof which became the defining
mark of the technology.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That was allowed the elements to be involved. And I
think bottom line, I think deep down he wanted that
like natural grass on the field, and he could they
couldn't didn't do it. They didn't. You know, I don't
know if you realize, but in Phoenix they had natural grass,
but they actually moved the whole field outside the dome
grow yes, when the games aren't playing, and then they
(17:02):
move it back in. I did not. It is bizarre,
and they spent a ton of money doing that. So
he didn't go to that extreme. And so they did
have natural turf.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
But but the luxury suites, the sponsorships, all of that
is your father, Clint Murkison's innovation.
Speaker 2 (17:18):
Oh yeah, the way it was financed, that's very interesting
because he when he first, you know, he got he
was shunned by Dallas and he knew that he always
held out hope that he would be able to do
a downtown stadium, and he just you know, he optioned,
even optioned fifty acres of property down on the west
(17:40):
you know, it's kind of the southwestern sector of Dallas,
in order to as a starting point for all this
kind of stuff. So he did that, but he knew
he needed to have an option and so he reached out.
He kind of looked at Arlington, which is where AT
and T Stadium is now located, and Dallas was a
different place that was for worth a different places. And
(18:02):
he says, I just can't ask my fans to come
to drop all the way out the way for that
because there was a stadium out there or there was
property available, and so it was through a friend, Max Thomas,
who was a Dallas business guy. It was a friend
of Ads but was from Irving And it was Max
and some other locals that actually introduced Dad to the city,
(18:24):
to the mayor out there, Lynn Brown, it was his name.
He was an incumbent mayor five terms or something, and
that's a story, but it was it was. Max also
helped him locate the property that there was eighty five
acre tear drop shape property that Dad ended up identifying
(18:44):
and optioning and ultimately purchasing.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
Tell me how Texas Stadium really becomes the prototype for
all the NFL stadiums we've seen since then.
Speaker 2 (18:55):
Well, you just look at where it's located, it said,
they call it it's like a influence of three freeways,
and its surrounded. There's there's plenty of parking. Uh, there's
plenty of parking. Uh. It's very successible, you know. It
just then in terms of the experience, So that parking
was a big deal because that was a problem right
here at the Cotton Bowls. He really focused on parking
(19:16):
and in terms of the stadium, you know, he wanted
to do chairback seats because we had out here at benches,
benches out here, uh at at at the cotton Bowl.
So everything he was trying to counter with the Cotton
Bowl and make it even more appealing to the fan
in terms of their acceptance.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
And the corporate sponsorship. I mean he coined this idea
of attaching corporate sponsorship.
Speaker 2 (19:39):
Well that was at sea, that came. That came later
a little bit. I think the sponsored I think what
you may be thinking about are the circle suites of
the tree suite. There were two levels of those that
that there had been in certain cases in other stadiums
there there was a suite or two, but nothing on
a commercial scale. And he actually had two levels between
(20:01):
the top and bottom decks, two levels, one hundred seventy
eight suites priced that and he was ended up. He
didn't know how to price these things. Nobody knew what
people do, but he priced at fifty thousand unfinished shell space,
and so people would buy them and then come in
with their decorator and finish him out as well. So
you had one hundred and seventy eight different designs. It
(20:22):
was fascinating, and there was one like incredible to a
photo was in the book It's a lowis the fourteenth
solid if you saw that, I wish chandeliers law. We
were hopefully to dode in cover color. But he had
like blue dark blue carpeting and stuff. I mean, it
was it was outrageous, but I mean it was that
the kind of creatative he saw and it it just
(20:42):
he caught people's imagination and it took the whole experience
to another level.
Speaker 1 (20:46):
How did he find Tom Landry?
Speaker 2 (20:49):
That's that's interesting because his first hire was Text Ramp,
the general manager right who came out of the Los
Angeles RAM organization, and he had had done it. He
had to help George Hollis of the Chicago Bears very
helpful to him. He had helped him identify tex RAM
and then and then Text basically in his own mind.
(21:12):
He had hired and worked with Sid Gilman, who was
another coach who went on after the the new League
came into being, the AFL came into being, went on
to coach Santa Chargers. Very good coach, experienced coach, had
coached Rams and the Chargers. But but Dad, he got
word through from friends that you know Alicia Landry text
(21:33):
of Tom's wife lived was from Dallas and they would
come back. He coached in their season up for New York.
He was a player player coach and then defensive coach,
and so he was, you know, highly recommended. And it
was really Dad that really, uh you know, came is
the one that made that selection as opposed to tax
(21:55):
and that's some Tech kind of did everything or took
took credit for everything. But in this case, Dad, it
was It was interesting because I think, uh, he had
I mean, Tom Landry was a genius and Dad had
a ton of respect for him. And but there they
kind of thought the same because Tom and his on
the off undergraduate wise had gotten a degree in chemical engineering.
(22:18):
Dad was an electoral engineer by education, and so they
kind of like thought the same. And that's a that's
a that's a statement, that observation that Joe Bailey, who
worked for text Ram kind of made. He's still living
and we've talked about it, but it's really fascinating, I think,
and it was really Dad that caused text you know
that they worked together and Dad, you know, they ended
(22:41):
up hiring Landry as a coach, and that's it's pretty incredible.
Speaker 1 (22:45):
Tell me tell me about from sixty six, for the
next twenty years the Dallas Cowboys have winning seasons in
that Texas stadium. What was the magic there?
Speaker 2 (22:58):
Well, it's just everything came together, you know. I mean
Tom Landrew was on a had a player, it's like
a five year player, and he didn't quite meet that
because I think they ended up they were set back.
One of the setbacks is in the first year, they
didn't weren't able to participate in the draft, and so
(23:18):
they were just you know, they were signing a few
free agents like doubt Don Meredith, and there was a
running back, good running back, Don Perkinson, so they had that,
but they didn't and so it kind of set him back.
But by sixty six is when they won and they
played the Green Bay Great green Bay Packers in the
Cotton Bowl in a fabulous game, one of the best
(23:39):
games they ever been to nineteen and it was pre Berger.
So it was like, what's interesting also is that is
that had we won that game, so we beat Let's see,
we lost the green Bay. Green Bay went on and
played the Kansas City Chiefs in the in the first
(24:01):
but had we won that, we would have been in
that vers and we would have been matched up against
the Dallas Texans who were founded that the same year
the Calier were, and we competed. Dad and the team
competed not on the field, but it commercially for three
or four years before before Lamar Harnt decided to move
(24:23):
into Kansas City. But we would have played them in
the first of It has just been a phenomenal thing.
And also if you think about it, had we we
lost that game, just we should have won that game. Frankly,
the next year it was the Ice Bowl in Rain Bay.
We should have won that game. Lost, But had we
won those two, those two championship games, it would probably
(24:43):
be the Landry Trophy rather than the Lombardi Trophy. Wow,
I mean you think of that. I mean things turned
on just two games in terms of that, because Landry's
success from starting at sixty six through the time Dad
sold the team after the eighty three season, that's I
think that's eighteen years winning record playoffs every year, five
(25:07):
Super Bowls, uh and two and two victories and it's
Super Bowls incredible in that period of time. I mean,
it's just unbelievable.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Has your father's vision, I mean, your dad coined and
created what we know of now as the modern day
NFL stadium. Has his vision been perverted in your mind?
Speaker 2 (25:31):
Well, I think a little bit. It just depends on
what these owners owners want, and and and I don't
recall when you know they were Jerry Jones, rather than
renovate and do things at Texas Stadium, he chose to
move them to a new venue. He wanted to start over.
His vision was entirely different. And Dad was all about
(25:54):
the experience of the spectator, sidelines, access comfort, all that
kind of Jerry Jones. His his mantra was more and
he actually had a T shirt out is Bigger is Better.
So they had the outline of AT and T Stadium
over over reaching the outline of Texas Stadium, on the
(26:15):
on the traffics, on the hurt stuff, and really, I
mean and so he's all I mean. And what he's
what he's always you know, kind of commented on, is
he's all about the money. And he ended up with
eighty you know, a studying with eighty thousand capacity of
eighty thousand spectators seated another twenty there standing room for
(26:36):
another twenty and and it just it was just a
different priority really and and Dad was about the experience.
Jones was more about just packings mean people. We can't
end there.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
When Jerry Jones bought the team, he bought the lease
to the Texas Stadium, and people laughed at him.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Why was that a good idea? It was a good
idea because they had a profit potential that he identified
and people didn't realized that that that But what it
took is that the need what you were able in
order to uh uh you know, make that take advantage
of that, you had to have a winning team. You
had to pull people in and and Jimmy Johnson was
(27:15):
able to turn that that team around with this a
matter of like three years. They were they went to
the back to the super Bowl, and the excitement that
caused in the community and the and it's just a
surge of interest in buying the tech. It's just a
long story. But then they were able to take advantage
to add new suites, sell these commercials, sell these luxury suites,
(27:35):
and and it just ended up being just a you know,
the the commercial success followed the success on the on
the on the fields.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
When they when the Texas Stadium finally came down, they
tore it down, there were three buttresses still standing.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
What did that mean to you? Oh, that's interesting. You
know people have had said they had different ideas about that.
Somebody said they kind of symbolized what Landry Shrem and
Gil Brandt maybe or something or Dad. I don't know,
they're just you know, but it was it was you know,
that was an emotional day, but it was you know,
(28:16):
it's something that that And what's interesting there is is
that occurred in twenty ten after the Cowboys had moved
to AT and T a year later in the spring
a year later. But that had been negotiated way back
in early two thousands when the Cowboys had made a
decision that they were going to leave Texas Stadium and
(28:37):
relocate in Arlington. And that was something that came down
between a negotiation between Herbert Gears, the mayor at the
time of Herba, and Jerry Jones. And he, you know,
Jones's big negotiating point was he wanted the stadium torn down,
demolish because he moving to the new stadium. He didn't
(28:57):
want any competition for college games, high school, non cowboy stuff.
He wanted it all there. So he made and you know,
Irving got things in return monetarily and stuff that they
negotiated for but ended up so that decision happened almost
you know, way before, to move itself in the to
the new stadium.
Speaker 1 (29:18):
Well, they've had a string of bad luck though since
they moved to that new house. Maybe they should have
stayed in Texas Stadium a little longer. I mean, the
good luck charm is clearly there.
Speaker 2 (29:27):
I mean, well so much, you know, I mean, it's
just you know, it's management style and things, and I
don't know how much you want to get into that.
But dad, Dad was a hands off kind of guy.
You know. He hired the people, He hired the best
and let them tell let them run it, and just stood.
But he was in Texas at some point referred to
(29:49):
him as the glue that kept our operation organization together,
which is true because he was always there to do
to support him and back them up when they when
they were challenged for one reason another.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
What did your dad have that you don't see in
these NFL franchises today? And what do you think he'd
think watching this, seeing this and the way that his
team has evolved.
Speaker 2 (30:16):
Oh he would. He remained a cowboyd fan throughout I
mean after he's old. I remember going back he was
in bad chet physically and whatnot health was. But I
remember going visiting him in his he had kind of
a sitting room where office sitting room we watch and said,
and he'd watch all the games, he'd be there and
and I don't know, I think I think there would
(30:38):
be he was. So I'm sure he's proud about what
he did. He was proud about the honor Wroughte, the
Dallas turning the team around and not turning the team
were getting established and making a winner and said, so,
I guess, I mean, it'd be hard to say. I
would assume he'd be disappointed. And why, Well, I mean,
I just think there's a I think if if you know,
(31:00):
you can follow his model and if you find the
right people, I think he can bring the stability that
you can find success and and uh, and I think
they just kind of you know, gotten off the path
kind of and and and really the model that Jones
is Jerry Jones uses now in terms of the you know,
(31:20):
owner management coach is more like it's an outmoded model
that the last person UH to use it was at
UH at Oakland. He was the owner GM of the
Al Davis And when when Jones was just first getting started,
Owl was still around and Jones really they they bonded
(31:45):
and I think he picked up a lot of his
somehow he appreciated his philosophy and wanted to kind of
like he became a little bit his his role model
very hands on, very hands on, and and uh, you know,
to to an excess, and particularly when you it just
got so complicated. I mean when you look at managing
anything and stuff particularly and there's so much competition, you
(32:08):
got to be And Jones is a really bright guy,
but I mean it's just I think you need to
find people with specialized talent and it trusts them to
do their job, trust them, and he just he just
kind of has floundered there. And I'm not sure why
it's a tragedy that has occurred.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
There's something I ask every guest on a Royal Grande.
I have a questionnaire, rapid fire questions. You don't have
to think deeply about these. Who's the person you most.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Admire My wife? Why? Oh, she's solids raw And I
would agree with that. I know his wife at least
is fantastic.
Speaker 1 (32:45):
Who's the person you most detest.
Speaker 2 (32:49):
Oh, my gosh, there's a satan. Well, I guess I
guess that counts.
Speaker 1 (32:55):
What's your best feature?
Speaker 2 (32:57):
My best feature? I think that a pretty good sense.
You do have a good sense of humor. What do
you fear? I just fear change with respect to our
country and the civility of our country and what the
world that's being introduced to our children, grandchildren, children and grandchildren.
Speaker 1 (33:20):
What is the thing you know that no one else does.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
That I know? Oh? I think maybe probably just internally
like the uh uh like like like a lack of
self confidence. Mm hmm. Wow. What's the best advice you
ever received? Oh, there's one that comes out of this uh.
(33:49):
I didn't use it in the book that I've learned
it since. And that's in terms of goal setting and
a plan. A plan without a goal, without a plan
is just to dream. Mmm. So boy, is that true?
Speaker 1 (34:04):
If you could not do what you're doing now, what
would you do?
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Oh, what I'm doing now, I'd be on the beach. No,
I'd be I'd love I love fishing. I love the Bahamas.
We talked about the Bahamas. Yah. I love fishing, just
being out in the water with the people. What happens
when this is over. What's this now?
Speaker 1 (34:27):
Well, whatever you want it to be, could be this interview,
could be this life.
Speaker 2 (34:31):
I don't know, that's up to you. Well, you know,
hopefully end up with our Lord and says her Savior,
Jesus Christ. That's a perfect answer. Yeah, thank you, thank
you so much. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 1 (34:44):
Okay, here's the hole. I love how Burke's dad, Clint Murchison,
he was undeterred and trying to establish his team in Dallas.
He tried to buy franchises in other cities, but none
of them would sell. So the decisive moment was now,
I hope you picked up on it. It was his
his decision to buy the Washington Redskins fight Song, which
he basically held as a ransom against George Preston Marshall,
(35:08):
the owner of the Redskins. Sometimes to get what you need,
you have to consider what your competitor values. Most smart move, Clint,
and it's the reason why the Cowboys, by the way,
ended up having the team in Dallas. But did you
know they were almost called the Dallas Steers. At the
last minute, Murchison changed the name to the Dallas Cowboys.
(35:31):
He's up for consideration to be included in the Football
Hall of Fame. How Clint Murchison has been overlooked all
this time as a mystery to me. Let's hope they
fix it this year.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
We'll keep you posted.
Speaker 1 (35:42):
I hope you'll come back to a Royal Grande soon.
Why live a dry, constricted life when if you fill
it with good things it can flow into a broad,
driving Arroyo Grande.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
I'm raming to Royo.
Speaker 1 (35:53):
Make sure you subscribe like this episode, Thanks for diving in,
and we'll see you next time. Royo Grande produced in
partnership with iHeart Podcasts and DP Studios, and is available
on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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