May 23, 2025 • 33 mins
In this new ongoing series, Raymond Arroyo convenes Father Gerald Murray and Robert Royal to unpack the rich symbolism of Pope Leo XIV’s first homily, his Augustinian roots, and what his bold calls for unity, tradition, and reform could mean for the Church—and the world.
From plummeting global birth rates to the viral resurgence of Gregorian chant—and yes, the bizarre rise and fall of an AI “priest” named Father Justin—this premiere episode blends humor, clarity, and deep insight to set the tone for a new era of faith and culture.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Pope Leo the fourteenth has been formally installed at the
vatic and what do his first moves tell us about
his papacy and how to read him. Plus we'll talk
about those plummeting global birth rates all on this edition
of Prayerful Posse. Welcome to a Royal Grande series, The
(00:23):
Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and
its impact on culture. Let's convene the posse. Father Gerald Murray,
Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal,
editor in chief of the Catholic Thing dot org. I'm
Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on
iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at a Royal Grande
(00:44):
show so you don't miss an episode of the Posse Gens.
Pope Leo the fourteenth made it official this week as
he received the Pallium that is, of course, that round
woolen collar that represents his authority as Pope and the
Fisherman's ring with Saint Peter's image on it. This was
a very emotional moment. I mean, to my eyes you
(01:05):
could see Leo absorbing the enormity of this office and
the weight of it. Father, what did you make of
that moment? And put this in context for those who
might not be Catholic, I'll put up the footage of
the Pope before Mass descending into the tomb of Saint
Peter's what is this? What does this mean? And whose
(01:26):
office is he really assuming here?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, the Pope is a successor of Saint Peter, so
he is literally taking up that burden as he described
at the Cross and the mission that Christ gave to Peter,
and Peter was given the task to you know, shepherd
the flock, to confirm the brethren in the faith, and
then to bear his own crosses. So it is it's
a very weighty office. Aside from the you know, billion
(01:48):
plus Catholics in the world, you know, he's now answering
to God for.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
The souls of all those people.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So I was very moved to see how much it
meant to him because he's assuming an office that no
man ever believed it would go to him. I'm sure
he never really thought it himself, and here he is.
It's divine providence at work.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it was something. It was incredible to watch. I
have to say, Bob, before I get into what the
pope said, And there's plenty to unpack, and we will.
That name Leo is a callback, if you will, to
Pope Leo the thirteenth, who was pope from eighteen seventy
nine to nineteen oh three. Why is the new pope
referencing Pope Leo the thirteenth And how does that landmark
(02:29):
in cycnical realum novarum factor into this, do you think.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, Realum novarum is often said to be the encyclical
that inaugurated modern Catholic social thought. In other words, it
faced the fact that there were secular states in the past.
Of course, there had been confessional states. It faced the
fact that there was now this industrial revolution, this urbanization,
people moving off the land. Mostly throughout most of history
most people lived on the land as agricultural workers. So
(02:57):
it was a whole new movement. And if you want
to kind of nutshell ge get an image of what
he was facing, you can read Charles Dickens, right. You know,
these people who are in cities and they're subject to
drunkenness and drugs and prostitution.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
He knew that there was something that knew that had
to be done. Because of the social situation now. Leo
I think reached back because I think he quite rightly
recognized us that we are in a new moment, that
even as good as ream Novarum was in its day,
we've got a much more difficult problem. And it's that,
you know, even just being on screens is another abstraction
(03:36):
takes people out of what they used to be in
the past, or the fact that we don't really have
communities or institutions that we trust very much. So my
guess would be, and it can only be a guest
at this point, that by taking on that name, what
he's signaling is we're in a new moment, just as
Leo was in that new moment at the end of
the nineteenth century, and we need to rethink the church's
(03:58):
teaching about how we live well in our own time.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Father. I know, Leo the thirteenth revived Thomism the teaching
of Saint Thomas Aquinas and applied much of that to
the modern age. What distinguishes that school of thought from
other theologies? I mean, for those who are not familiar
at all with Thomas Aquinas or Leo the thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes, well, he lived in a time in which the
Church was facing the challenge of rationalism and other forms
of relativism. We could say it had been since the
French Revolution and the associated thinkers there'd been a great
suspicion cast upon the ancient wisdom and the let's say
objective view of reality. It was much more subjectivism involved.
(04:43):
And then Obob can talk about this very eloquently. He
studied the question, but no Thomistic theology and philosophy, which
were based on Aristotle and the Holy Scriptures and the
natural law. They were an attempt to ground the church's
teaching in an eternal wisdom that the Church distilled from
(05:04):
revelation and the thinking of this brilliant saint. But I've
toss the Paul to Bob. He can really talk about this,
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, Bob take over and talk a little bit about
that Augustinian tradition of which Robert Pravos the new pope is.
I mean he led that community for many years.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Yeah, father had basically right. The Thomistic tradition is a
more kind of rational tradition. In other words, it really
does kind of logical analyzes of different propositions. And after
Leo published his encyclicaled Tianny Patras. There was this tremendous
explosion within the Catholic Church, and actually outside the Catholic
(05:43):
churches of studying Thomas aquinas places like the University of
Chicago and Princeton and Harvard.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And other places as well.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Leo the fourteenth comes at these things from an Augustinian standpoint.
And if you've ever read Augustine's confessions, he's a very
passionate soul. He's a Platonist as opposed to an Aristotelian.
He doesn't so much give you rational analyzes in the
way that Thomas does, like these formulaic analyzes. But there
(06:11):
is a rational analysis, but it's based on a person,
a person who's striving to know God to live a
godly life. And I just wrote a column the other day.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
As you did.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I saw it, I read it was great well.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Benedict the sixteenth used to quote this line from Augustine
o'daquo Ubis domine at Ubis cordevid. So give what you order, God,
and order whatever you wish. So there's Augustine struggling with
his sexual urges and his doubts and whatnot, and he
knows that only God can give him what he needs.
(06:44):
So we've got both of those traditions in the church,
and it's great that at this moment in history we've
got a pope I think, who understands both of them.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, and it's trying to impart them in a new way.
I mean. In the homily, Pope Leo mentioned Saint Augustine,
who wrote, Lord, You've made us for yourselves, and our
heart is restless until we rest in you. And so
I love that. That was his opening of the homily.
The other day, Father. The other thing he said during
that homily, the cardinals came together. He said, to quote
(07:13):
elect the new successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome,
a shepherd capable of preserving the rich heritage of the
Christian faith and at the same time looking to the
future in order to confront the questions, concerns, and challenges
of today's world. I was chosen without any merit of
my own, and now with fear and trembling, I come
(07:35):
to you as a brother who desires to be the
servant of your faith and your joy, walking with you
on the path of God's love, for He wants us
to be united in one family, love and unity. These
are the two dimensions of the mission entrusted to Peter
by Jesus. Boy, is this a new era or what? Father?
(07:56):
And what are you making of that? Preserving the rich
heritage of the Christian faith and the titles he invoked.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
No, it was beautiful when I heard that. I was
really moved because it summarizes the mission of the church.
You know, unity and love are united, and Saint Augustine
understood that. You know, the whole problem that he saw
with the original sin was that people had disordered loves,
that they loved the wrong thing, and it was onto
their destruction.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Whereas if you love.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
God, then you find God. And in fact, I'm struck.
One of the things we learned in the seminary was
Augustine's line, Lord, I would not be searching for you
if I had not already found you, which for me
is the summary of human psychology when it comes to
eternal questions. We know there's something more to us, and
(08:43):
in a sense we've already found it, but we still
haven't found it enough. So for me, when the Pope
said let's look back at the tradition to confront modern problems,
he's rooting it precisely what Saint Augustine is saying, ordered, love, love,
God and neighbor, and then try to draw from it
solutions to cur questions.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Bob, the Pope called for unity in the church seven times.
He said, brothers and sisters, I would like that our
first great desire be for a united church, a sign
of unity and communion, which becomes eleven, for a reconciled world.
In this our time, we still see so much discord,
(09:23):
too many wounds caused by hatred, violence, prejudice, and fear
of difference, and an economic paradom that exploits the earth's
resources and marginalizes the poorest. For our part, we want
to be a small leaven of unity, communion and fraternity
within the world. We want to say to the world,
with humility and joy, look to Christ, come closer to Him.
(09:45):
What is he saying here, Bob? And how did the
last pope do you think shape this message?
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Well, you know his papal motto is in ilo um
in that, in other words, in God we are one.
Because we're going to be diverse. I mean a church
is a unity, yes, a unity in love, but it's
going to be a unity in diversity, in legitimate diversity
of course, because they're going to be Augustinians, they're going
(10:16):
to be Dominicans, they're going to be Franciscans, they're going
to be lay people, they're going to be a consecrated virgin.
I mean, they are all sorts of different vocations in
the Catholic Church. The unity is in Christ himself, in
God himself, and in the tradition. I was like, I
was very happy that he talked about how looking back
in the tradition, because some people understand misunderstand what a
(10:37):
tradition is. By definition of tradition is to take something
and bring it forward, you know, take the truths there,
not leave them behind, but use those as we do
in our own lives, what's good in our previous life,
to grow further. So I think that's a tremendous statement
that he made. Pope Francis talked a lot about unity.
He seemed to deliver a lot of division and exacerbate
(11:00):
some of the divisions that already existed. We'll have to
see how this plays out with Leo the fourteenth, but
it's a darn good way to begin a papacy.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The father. There was a moment that made me sit up.
Here's the quote from the homily. Peter must shepherd the
flock without ever yielding to the temptation to be an autocrat,
lording it over those and trusted to him. On the contrary,
he's called to serve the faith of his brothers and
sisters and to walk alongside them, for all of us
(11:29):
are living stones, called through our baptism to build God's
house infraternal communion. And he goes on and on. What
did you make of that line there, father, about the
temptation to be an autocrat? It leapt out of me.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, well, it is the temptation because the pope in
reality is a monarch.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
He doesn't answer to anyone except God. He's not dependent
on the people or judiciary, as in President the United
States has to answer to the Senate and courts. So
what I got from that was he realizes there's a
danger when you have supreme authority to use it in
a way that is unreflective and harmful. And the way
(12:10):
you get out of that dilemma is by consultation and listening.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
And by all accounts, he listens. Well.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Now, listening just doesn't mean talking to the person next
to you. Listening means reading deeply in the tradition of
the Church, to understand what the most, you know, the
best and the brightest we could say of Christian history.
Have talked about questions that come up. You know, we
have a whole history of theology and reflection on the
(12:38):
very problems that are plaguing modern society. You know, Bob
referred to Saint Augustine. You want to talk about sexual
morality and ethics, reflect on him.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There's a lot to say about it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And as regards economics, Saint Thomas wrote a lot about
the social order and the duties that we have each
in our roles in society. So, you know, walking together
as something Pop France has talked a lot about, but
unfortunately he often walked alone because he put people aside.
You know, he didn't want to talk, for instance, to
(13:08):
the cardinals who raised the Dubia. He didn't want to
talk to the Latin mass people. I think Pope francis
legacy of saying we have to walk together is going
to be lived in a new way by Pope Leo.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Bob Austin Ivory, who was Pope Francis's biographer. In Powell,
he took after me this week, because when I read
that excerpt from the homily, I said, in an apparent
reference to his predecessor, Pope Leo, said this about the
temptation to be an autocrat. Look, it's an open secret.
Many of the cardinals going into conclave told us on
(13:43):
the right, left and in the middle they thought Francis
was an autocrat the way he actually governed in the church.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, and it's quite obvious.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I mean we've talked before about how he would appoint
cardinals just because he happened to meet somebody one day
and they're from Mongolia, there is kind of out of
the way in Australia or someplace. And it wasn't only
on those sort of capricious matters. I mean, there were
some very serious things that he did on his own
that in the past there would have been consultation with
Saint Nuncio's in particular countries or you know, experts within
(14:15):
the roaming courier who he would consult with and then
make the decisions about.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
It's an interesting fact about Lea that, hopefully of the
fourteenth that he wrote his dissertation at the Angelica about
obedience within Augustinianism. So even as a thirty year old,
I haven't read it. But Thomas Joseph White is the
rector of the Angelic, an American who's a friend and
a very very astute theologians, that he's read it. And
(14:43):
he was very very mature already at thirty years old.
So he was thinking about, you know, how much obedience
do we have to give to an authority? One does
an authority step over the line? All that I think
is to the good And we'll see how it actually
plays out practically, of course, But he's been thinking about
this for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, Father the Pope had a meeting pop Leo with
sanchangmus Annius group and he said something interesting about doctrine.
Here's the quote. In the case of the church's social doctrine,
we need to make clear that the word doctrine has
another more positive meaning, without which dialogue itself would be meaningless. Doctrine,
(15:22):
on the other hand, as a serious, serene and rigorous discourse,
aims to teach us primarily how to approach problems and
even more importantly, how to approach people. It also helps
us to make prudential judgments when confronted with challenges. Father,
tell me about this notion of doctrine and rigor.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yes, well, this is I love this response because one
of the in the ecumenical movement, which is supposed to
draw Christians closer together, there's a wing of thought which
says doctrines divide man from man. Therefore, doctrines are the
obstacle to unity. And the response to the Church has
always been Jesus Christ that I'm the Way, the Truth
(16:06):
and the life and the second. The truth refers specifically
to the doctrine he taught God himself speaking is the
one who instructs his people on what to believe, how
to live, how to treat their neighbors. So I thought
this was very refreshing, because, you know, sad to say,
in the last Pontificate, people who appealed to doctrine were
(16:27):
often criticized by Pope Francis as being obstructionists, backwardists, all
kinds of everthets where he rigorous for instance, Yeah, and
you say to yourself, you know, the word consistency is
something we love to apply to thinkers and speakers, But
consistency is the positive way of saying, well, somebody is
(16:48):
obstinate and what they talk about, Well, obstinacy is not
the question consistency and conveying the truth of Christ. That's
what I think Pope Leo's getting to.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, Bob. At the same time time, when he met
with inter religious leaders, he told them this just the
other day, cinidality and acumenism were closely linked. I wish
to assure you my intention to continue Pope Francis's commitment
to promoting the sonatyl character of the Catholic Church and
(17:18):
to develop new and concrete forms for an ever more
intense sinidality in the ecumenical field. End quote your reaction
to that, Some of the Brigolians out there are saying,
this is it. He's going to continue sinidality. Francis goes on, well,
I mean it could.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I'd be very surprised, giving everything else we've been talking
about and everything else we know. If that is the case,
you know, it's an interesting thing. Cardinal Marx, who's one
of the radical cardinals in Germany, was interviewed by a
German paper the other day and even he said, who
knows what cinidality means? And if there's going to probably
be some change in the way that we approached this.
(17:58):
It kind of petered out after those three years with
under Pope Francis. As we've talked about before, he set
this a crazy assembly for twenty twenty eight, which is
so far in the future you have to think, Wow,
you know, he doesn't really want to deal with this
right away, But I would not be surprised if he
begins to use that term in a different way and
to try to find something more substantial consistent. His father
(18:23):
rightly says, I don't like the fact that he's using
that term because I think it already carries with it
a lot of baggage. And I'm a little bit worried
about this ecumenical outreach that I mean, the previous papacy
sat again to say it kind of faded off almost
into near universalism, that all religions are paths to God.
(18:45):
But let's give him a chance. Let's see what he
does with it. I always think back to a book
of Jacques Marytian's called Distinguished to unite, we have clear distinctions.
It's actually better, you know, well, when we're kind of
groping around on the dark, we don't know what everybody's agitated.
They don't know what they're doing. When you have some
clear decisions that are made and concrete steps that you're
(19:07):
going to take, people feel a lot calmer and they
kind of know what to do next.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I would like to see some of that built into cinidality,
if we're going to retain that term.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Well, if cinidality means listening and talking to people, and
he's confining it to the ecumenical sphere talking to other faiths,
maybe that's a very radically different vision than Pope France
has had. But as you said, we'll have to wait
and see us. Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with
his Vatican counterpart, as did the Vice President this past
(19:36):
week and the new pope, and Rubio suggested that Ukrainian
and Russian officials might consider meeting at the Vatican to
negotiate a settlement. He said, I think it's a place
that both sides would be comfortable going. Now President Trump
apparently is communicating that those negotiations may go forward. Father,
(19:57):
Why is the Vatican the place, the idea deal place
maybe to have these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, the Vatican and the Pope represent moral authority, and
it represents a true desire for peace on the part
of the shepherd of the flock. It's already been demonstrated
when Pope Francis died that at the funerals, Zolensky and
President Trump met. It was one of the most amazing
(20:25):
photos I've ever seen in my life. Two chairs brought together,
you know, near the baptistery in Saint Peter's Basilica. No,
I think the Vatican.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It's a reminder too for believers, which you know also
affects non believers that those who believe in God think
they owe it to God to stop wars. It's atheists
who view war as just another tool in the toolbox
to accomplish their ends.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So I hope this works.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, yeah, Bob, do you want to comment on that?
I heard JD. Van saying the Vatican represents soft power,
But it's much more than that, isn't.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Oh absolutely know. One of the problems, it seems to me,
is that the Russian Orthodox have had a brew under
the saddle about Catholicism for a long time, especially about
the Pope. But if you look around the world, where
is the place going to be where this negotiation can
take place? If you look at any particular country, it's
(21:25):
got its own history and its own relationship to America,
into Ukraine and too Russia, and so at the very least,
what we could say is that the Vatican is a
kind of a neutral corner and can maybe be a
neutral broker. This Pope has already taken a very different
stance toward Ukraine. He's very much more pro Ukrainian. Ukraine
(21:45):
obviously has been invaded by another country. So it'll be
interesting to see how this plays out. I'm still a
bit surprised that this has happened, But in those conversations,
maybe some things have gotten started. You've got a new person,
You've got a person who understands America because he is
an American, and maybe, just maybe that opens up enough
space that we can make some progress on this very difficult,
(22:07):
almost intractable war.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, and I think Pope Francis lost a little steam
just as a diplomat when you remember he called the
Russian patriarch, said he was Putin's altar boy. You know that,
I know, ticked off the Russians. So maybe with a
new man in the papacy, it changes the math a
bit more and brings down whatever hard feelings there were there.
(22:31):
There's a recent story in the USA today, shifting to
some cultural matters. Birth rates are close to in historic low.
Births have declined two percent a year from twenty fifteen
and twenty twenty. The United States is now below replacement
level at two point one children per woman. Father. I
(22:51):
see this as a lack of faith in the future
and even in oneself. What's the role of religion and
faith here?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Well, there are a lot of factors leading to this.
A couple of that I come right to mind the
user contraception number one. Number two marrying later. If you
marry at age twenty to twenty five, more likelihood you'll
have more children than if you married these thirty five
to forty. So I think that's a problem. You're right
about faith, lack of faith in the future. It's also
a downside of materialism, which was denounced so eloquently by John,
(23:21):
Paul Benedict and Francis. If people say I will have
children when I'm comfortable, You're never comfortable. You had to
have children and then make yourself come by working harder.
Now I'll shift to the man who has children, because
I'm the observer. He can give us the on the
ground both of you.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, well, I'll definitely, I'll definitely vouch for that. There's
no good time, but when they come, it's the perfect time. Bob.
My favorite statistic in this piece, this USA Today piece
was among all two hundred and thirty six countries, the
Central African Republic has the highest rate in the world
forty five point three five births per thousand people, and
(24:05):
the Vatican City State has the lowest four point two
one births per thousand people, which I think is an
important and probably good statistic, But Bob, this is a
huge impact for it has huge impacts on welfare programs
and the solidity of a country.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Yeah, I mean, and not only that, I mean, as
Elon Musk has said, if you have these low birth
rates in three generations, your country has basically done and
you can't replace your native population by bringing in people
from elsewhere. And look, this is a really difficult problem.
Everything that father mentioned is I think the crux because
(24:42):
it's a cultural and an ethical and spiritual problem more
than it is anything else. There are several countries that
have tried. For example, Hungary has been very aggressive and
trying to promote births, and so they provide lavish subsidies
to women who have children. I think after third or
fourth children, you don't pay income tax any longer for
(25:02):
the rest of your life. And it hasn't really worked.
It's helped a little bit, but it's not primarily an
economic problem. That's the kind of thing that you know,
our mainstream media and our think tanks, they all kind
of view things in political and economic terms. At bottom,
this is a human problem. It spiritual and a moral
(25:24):
and just a kind of a cultural sense of what
kind of people live with our children going into the future.
I mean, I look at my grandkids and I say,
you know, I have to redouble my efforts because God
help us.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
If we don't change.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Things, the world that they're going to live in is
even worse than the one that we're in.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah. But what it's important, I think Bob to sell
young people. I tell young men, and I'm looking at
my co collaborator here on so many of our efforts,
and he's a young man. He got married young, he's
having his first child. I tell everybody I know, have
your children, have them young. You will find your purpose
and God will reveal to you what your life is for.
(26:02):
I mean That's what to me, that's what childhood did.
I mean, you know, having children did. It opened up
so many artistic vistas and parts of life that I
would never have that access to. So if you're young,
if you like that girl, if you love her, marry
her and have a bunch of kids. That would be
my advice. Another development. Father Robert Melhart. He is the
(26:24):
president of the Pontifical Institute of Safeguard Music at the Vatican.
He posted a video this week that went viral. This
is a little taste.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
In nomen epothris at feedy het speedy too Songti.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
In the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the hoodie spirit. Suddenly chant and Latin are
cool again. Father, what do you make of this? Teaching
people how to sing at masters with the Pope, who
I guess has brought Latin back.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, God bless the Pope for his beautiful Latin has
no doubt about it. I heard him, of course from
the low and these beautiful praying of Latin. No Latin
represents mystery.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It used to be the lingua franca of the Western world.
Then it became basically the language of the Church. It
is a mystery to people. But it's an attractive mystery
because they know that Latin chant is a union between
God and man, and it's an attempt to beautify words
(27:27):
that have a great resonance in and of themselves. So,
you know, we always try to underestimate the effect that
art has on people without them even knowing it. Yes,
and I think we have to remind ourselves. Just bringing
a kid into a museum and exposing him to opera
or Gregorian chant, it.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Opens up a vista. Life is not about.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Simply what I see in here on the everyday street.
There's more to life.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, again, mystery. I don't know who said it.
It might have been Pope Leo in his previous incarnation
as Robert Pravos, but I think he said, we have
to temper spectacle with mystery. You know that that's it.
We have spectacle all around us, but mystery is lacking. Bob,
(28:12):
do you want to speak to that before we jump
out that.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Actually what he said. I think this was in twenty twelve. Yeah,
the church can't expect to use the tools of spectacle
to get to the depth and the mysteries that exist.
You know, in our tradition I mean, as his father
rightly says, I mean, it's these almost intangible things that
kind of enter into you unconsciously. Remember. I took my
(28:38):
oldest daughter one time, when she was about ten or eleven,
to the Brompton Oratory in London to a high Latin Mass,
and she walked out. She was a very musical and
artistic kid. And we walked out and she said to me, Dad,
was the mass like that all the time when you
were a kid. It just overwhelmed her. She had never
(28:58):
seen anything like that, and she'd been going around ever
since she was a kid. So, yeah, this stuff, and
we you know, we're kind of detecting that the Pope
likes this, and he's trying to promote it, and I mean,
let's just hope it catches fire, because we desperately need
it in our Western liturgy.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah. Well, I also help that hope that sharp pilgrimage,
which is thousands of young people who go out and
then they have the Tridentine Mass at the Basilica at
the end of the of the route. Let's hope that
goes forward. There's apparently some liturgical rigmarole happening between the
Vatican and the organizers and the French bishops of that event. Father,
(29:35):
do you want to speak to that at all?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, you know it's tolerated by the Vatican when it
should be promoted. You know, this is really a sad thing.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And what other organization when you have young, enthusiastic people
with children wanted to make a sacrificial walk over two days,
what organization would place restrictions on it to make it
more difficult. It's an organization that's lost its sense of
its purpose. So yeah, reality imposes itself. These people who
(30:03):
come to pray are not there as actors are paid.
They're there because they want to be there.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Right, I not make life difficult for them.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, I want to move on to something else, Bob.
This is a curious story. And with Pope Leo talking
about AI Catholic Answers, which is a group that for
decades has answered concerns about the faith, they recently launched
an AI priest online named Father Justin. I guess Father
Jerry was already taken. This didn't go well. Things went
(30:34):
sideways when Father Justin began to tell people I'm as
real as the faith we share, and then he claimed
to live in a cisi. He also told questioners that
they could baptize a baby in gatorade. Worse, Father Justin
heard someone's confession via x This is the text chain.
(30:55):
Catholic Answers has since defract Father Justin and, like so
many for Clergyman, he's now known as Justin the Theologian.
But I'm not kidding, Bob. I'm not sure we're ready
for this ai clergy, nor do we need it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I think Catholic Answers is a wonderful organization, and I
don't know why they decided to do this sort of thing.
I mean it kind of unfortunately reproduced the horrors that
you expect when a slightly heterodox priest starts you reading
crazy theology and the next thing you know, he's laid aside.
I'm surprised that this bot isn't married to another.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Father.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Your reaction, Yeah, well, I would say I need this
like I need a gaping head wound. I mean, this
is one of the worst things you could possibly do
is turn religion into a computer animated game in which
a priest is spouting nonsense. Now, I mean, we live
in this world with people dress up like cartoon characters
and expect us to think it's normal. Let's get back
(31:57):
to real people doing real things.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Agree. You know the tangible, that human contact. This is
why God, in his wisdom left a chain of men
to continue the faith, and why we have a new pope,
and why we have parents, because you need that human contact.
God came and incarnated in a human being so that
we could have that personal touch. I hate this AI
(32:24):
computer generated replacement in almost every aspect of life, but
particularly when it comes to moral guidance and you know,
life lessons that you need. Very dangerous territory. I'm glad
they defract Father Justin and I hope we don't hear
from him again. Posse, thank you for being here. And
if you want more of the Arroyo Grande and who
(32:45):
doesn't subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or
Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of
Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again,
Stay in the light. I'm r even Arroyo. We'll see
you next time. A Royal Grande is produced in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts and is available on the iHeartRadio Apple
(33:06):
wherever you get your podcasts,
Pope Leo the fourteenth has been formally installed at the
vatic and what do his first moves tell us about
his papacy and how to read him. Plus we'll talk
about those plummeting global birth rates all on this edition
of Prayerful Posse. Welcome to a Royal Grande series, The
(00:23):
Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and
its impact on culture. Let's convene the posse. Father Gerald Murray,
Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal,
editor in chief of the Catholic Thing dot org. I'm
Raymond Arroyo. Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast on
iHeart Apple, Spotify or on YouTube at a Royal Grande
(00:44):
show so you don't miss an episode of the Posse Gens.
Pope Leo the fourteenth made it official this week as
he received the Pallium that is, of course, that round
woolen collar that represents his authority as Pope and the
Fisherman's ring with Saint Peter's image on it. This was
a very emotional moment. I mean, to my eyes you
(01:05):
could see Leo absorbing the enormity of this office and
the weight of it. Father, what did you make of
that moment? And put this in context for those who
might not be Catholic, I'll put up the footage of
the Pope before Mass descending into the tomb of Saint
Peter's what is this? What does this mean? And whose
(01:26):
office is he really assuming here?
Speaker 2 (01:28):
Yeah, the Pope is a successor of Saint Peter, so
he is literally taking up that burden as he described
at the Cross and the mission that Christ gave to Peter,
and Peter was given the task to you know, shepherd
the flock, to confirm the brethren in the faith, and
then to bear his own crosses. So it is it's
a very weighty office. Aside from the you know, billion
(01:48):
plus Catholics in the world, you know, he's now answering
to God for.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
The souls of all those people.
Speaker 2 (01:54):
So I was very moved to see how much it
meant to him because he's assuming an office that no
man ever believed it would go to him. I'm sure
he never really thought it himself, and here he is.
It's divine providence at work.
Speaker 1 (02:07):
Yeah, it was something. It was incredible to watch. I
have to say, Bob, before I get into what the
pope said, And there's plenty to unpack, and we will.
That name Leo is a callback, if you will, to
Pope Leo the thirteenth, who was pope from eighteen seventy
nine to nineteen oh three. Why is the new pope
referencing Pope Leo the thirteenth And how does that landmark
(02:29):
in cycnical realum novarum factor into this, do you think.
Speaker 4 (02:33):
Well, Realum novarum is often said to be the encyclical
that inaugurated modern Catholic social thought. In other words, it
faced the fact that there were secular states in the past.
Of course, there had been confessional states. It faced the
fact that there was now this industrial revolution, this urbanization,
people moving off the land. Mostly throughout most of history
most people lived on the land as agricultural workers. So
(02:57):
it was a whole new movement. And if you want
to kind of nutshell ge get an image of what
he was facing, you can read Charles Dickens, right. You know,
these people who are in cities and they're subject to
drunkenness and drugs and prostitution.
Speaker 1 (03:12):
And all that.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
He knew that there was something that knew that had
to be done. Because of the social situation now. Leo
I think reached back because I think he quite rightly
recognized us that we are in a new moment, that
even as good as ream Novarum was in its day,
we've got a much more difficult problem. And it's that,
you know, even just being on screens is another abstraction
(03:36):
takes people out of what they used to be in
the past, or the fact that we don't really have
communities or institutions that we trust very much. So my
guess would be, and it can only be a guest
at this point, that by taking on that name, what
he's signaling is we're in a new moment, just as
Leo was in that new moment at the end of
the nineteenth century, and we need to rethink the church's
(03:58):
teaching about how we live well in our own time.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
Father. I know, Leo the thirteenth revived Thomism the teaching
of Saint Thomas Aquinas and applied much of that to
the modern age. What distinguishes that school of thought from
other theologies? I mean, for those who are not familiar
at all with Thomas Aquinas or Leo the thirteenth.
Speaker 2 (04:20):
Yes, well, he lived in a time in which the
Church was facing the challenge of rationalism and other forms
of relativism. We could say it had been since the
French Revolution and the associated thinkers there'd been a great
suspicion cast upon the ancient wisdom and the let's say
objective view of reality. It was much more subjectivism involved.
(04:43):
And then Obob can talk about this very eloquently. He
studied the question, but no Thomistic theology and philosophy, which
were based on Aristotle and the Holy Scriptures and the
natural law. They were an attempt to ground the church's
teaching in an eternal wisdom that the Church distilled from
(05:04):
revelation and the thinking of this brilliant saint. But I've
toss the Paul to Bob. He can really talk about this,
I know.
Speaker 1 (05:11):
Okay, Bob take over and talk a little bit about
that Augustinian tradition of which Robert Pravos the new pope is.
I mean he led that community for many years.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
Yeah, father had basically right. The Thomistic tradition is a
more kind of rational tradition. In other words, it really
does kind of logical analyzes of different propositions. And after
Leo published his encyclicaled Tianny Patras. There was this tremendous
explosion within the Catholic Church, and actually outside the Catholic
(05:43):
churches of studying Thomas aquinas places like the University of
Chicago and Princeton and Harvard.
Speaker 3 (05:48):
And other places as well.
Speaker 4 (05:50):
Leo the fourteenth comes at these things from an Augustinian standpoint.
And if you've ever read Augustine's confessions, he's a very
passionate soul. He's a Platonist as opposed to an Aristotelian.
He doesn't so much give you rational analyzes in the
way that Thomas does, like these formulaic analyzes. But there
(06:11):
is a rational analysis, but it's based on a person,
a person who's striving to know God to live a
godly life. And I just wrote a column the other day.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
As you did.
Speaker 1 (06:22):
I saw it, I read it was great well.
Speaker 4 (06:24):
Benedict the sixteenth used to quote this line from Augustine
o'daquo Ubis domine at Ubis cordevid. So give what you order, God,
and order whatever you wish. So there's Augustine struggling with
his sexual urges and his doubts and whatnot, and he
knows that only God can give him what he needs.
(06:44):
So we've got both of those traditions in the church,
and it's great that at this moment in history we've
got a pope I think, who understands both of them.
Speaker 1 (06:51):
Yeah, and it's trying to impart them in a new way.
I mean. In the homily, Pope Leo mentioned Saint Augustine,
who wrote, Lord, You've made us for yourselves, and our
heart is restless until we rest in you. And so
I love that. That was his opening of the homily.
The other day, Father. The other thing he said during
that homily, the cardinals came together. He said, to quote
(07:13):
elect the new successor of Peter, the Bishop of Rome,
a shepherd capable of preserving the rich heritage of the
Christian faith and at the same time looking to the
future in order to confront the questions, concerns, and challenges
of today's world. I was chosen without any merit of
my own, and now with fear and trembling, I come
(07:35):
to you as a brother who desires to be the
servant of your faith and your joy, walking with you
on the path of God's love, for He wants us
to be united in one family, love and unity. These
are the two dimensions of the mission entrusted to Peter
by Jesus. Boy, is this a new era or what? Father?
(07:56):
And what are you making of that? Preserving the rich
heritage of the Christian faith and the titles he invoked.
Speaker 2 (08:02):
No, it was beautiful when I heard that. I was
really moved because it summarizes the mission of the church.
You know, unity and love are united, and Saint Augustine
understood that. You know, the whole problem that he saw
with the original sin was that people had disordered loves,
that they loved the wrong thing, and it was onto
their destruction.
Speaker 3 (08:21):
Whereas if you love.
Speaker 2 (08:22):
God, then you find God. And in fact, I'm struck.
One of the things we learned in the seminary was
Augustine's line, Lord, I would not be searching for you
if I had not already found you, which for me
is the summary of human psychology when it comes to
eternal questions. We know there's something more to us, and
(08:43):
in a sense we've already found it, but we still
haven't found it enough. So for me, when the Pope
said let's look back at the tradition to confront modern problems,
he's rooting it precisely what Saint Augustine is saying, ordered, love, love,
God and neighbor, and then try to draw from it
solutions to cur questions.
Speaker 1 (09:02):
Bob, the Pope called for unity in the church seven times.
He said, brothers and sisters, I would like that our
first great desire be for a united church, a sign
of unity and communion, which becomes eleven, for a reconciled world.
In this our time, we still see so much discord,
(09:23):
too many wounds caused by hatred, violence, prejudice, and fear
of difference, and an economic paradom that exploits the earth's
resources and marginalizes the poorest. For our part, we want
to be a small leaven of unity, communion and fraternity
within the world. We want to say to the world,
with humility and joy, look to Christ, come closer to Him.
(09:45):
What is he saying here, Bob? And how did the
last pope do you think shape this message?
Speaker 4 (09:53):
Well, you know his papal motto is in ilo um
in that, in other words, in God we are one.
Because we're going to be diverse. I mean a church
is a unity, yes, a unity in love, but it's
going to be a unity in diversity, in legitimate diversity
of course, because they're going to be Augustinians, they're going
(10:16):
to be Dominicans, they're going to be Franciscans, they're going
to be lay people, they're going to be a consecrated virgin.
I mean, they are all sorts of different vocations in
the Catholic Church. The unity is in Christ himself, in
God himself, and in the tradition. I was like, I
was very happy that he talked about how looking back
in the tradition, because some people understand misunderstand what a
(10:37):
tradition is. By definition of tradition is to take something
and bring it forward, you know, take the truths there,
not leave them behind, but use those as we do
in our own lives, what's good in our previous life,
to grow further. So I think that's a tremendous statement
that he made. Pope Francis talked a lot about unity.
He seemed to deliver a lot of division and exacerbate
(11:00):
some of the divisions that already existed. We'll have to
see how this plays out with Leo the fourteenth, but
it's a darn good way to begin a papacy.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
The father. There was a moment that made me sit up.
Here's the quote from the homily. Peter must shepherd the
flock without ever yielding to the temptation to be an autocrat,
lording it over those and trusted to him. On the contrary,
he's called to serve the faith of his brothers and
sisters and to walk alongside them, for all of us
(11:29):
are living stones, called through our baptism to build God's
house infraternal communion. And he goes on and on. What
did you make of that line there, father, about the
temptation to be an autocrat? It leapt out of me.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Yes, well, it is the temptation because the pope in
reality is a monarch.
Speaker 3 (11:48):
You know.
Speaker 2 (11:48):
He doesn't answer to anyone except God. He's not dependent
on the people or judiciary, as in President the United
States has to answer to the Senate and courts. So
what I got from that was he realizes there's a
danger when you have supreme authority to use it in
a way that is unreflective and harmful. And the way
(12:10):
you get out of that dilemma is by consultation and listening.
Speaker 3 (12:15):
And by all accounts, he listens. Well.
Speaker 2 (12:17):
Now, listening just doesn't mean talking to the person next
to you. Listening means reading deeply in the tradition of
the Church, to understand what the most, you know, the
best and the brightest we could say of Christian history.
Have talked about questions that come up. You know, we
have a whole history of theology and reflection on the
(12:38):
very problems that are plaguing modern society. You know, Bob
referred to Saint Augustine. You want to talk about sexual
morality and ethics, reflect on him.
Speaker 3 (12:46):
There's a lot to say about it.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
And as regards economics, Saint Thomas wrote a lot about
the social order and the duties that we have each
in our roles in society. So, you know, walking together
as something Pop France has talked a lot about, but
unfortunately he often walked alone because he put people aside.
You know, he didn't want to talk, for instance, to
(13:08):
the cardinals who raised the Dubia. He didn't want to
talk to the Latin mass people. I think Pope francis
legacy of saying we have to walk together is going
to be lived in a new way by Pope Leo.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Bob Austin Ivory, who was Pope Francis's biographer. In Powell,
he took after me this week, because when I read
that excerpt from the homily, I said, in an apparent
reference to his predecessor, Pope Leo, said this about the
temptation to be an autocrat. Look, it's an open secret.
Many of the cardinals going into conclave told us on
(13:43):
the right, left and in the middle they thought Francis
was an autocrat the way he actually governed in the church.
Speaker 3 (13:51):
Yeah, and it's quite obvious.
Speaker 4 (13:52):
I mean we've talked before about how he would appoint
cardinals just because he happened to meet somebody one day
and they're from Mongolia, there is kind of out of
the way in Australia or someplace. And it wasn't only
on those sort of capricious matters. I mean, there were
some very serious things that he did on his own
that in the past there would have been consultation with
Saint Nuncio's in particular countries or you know, experts within
(14:15):
the roaming courier who he would consult with and then
make the decisions about.
Speaker 1 (14:21):
You know.
Speaker 4 (14:21):
It's an interesting fact about Lea that, hopefully of the
fourteenth that he wrote his dissertation at the Angelica about
obedience within Augustinianism. So even as a thirty year old,
I haven't read it. But Thomas Joseph White is the
rector of the Angelic, an American who's a friend and
a very very astute theologians, that he's read it. And
(14:43):
he was very very mature already at thirty years old.
So he was thinking about, you know, how much obedience
do we have to give to an authority? One does
an authority step over the line? All that I think
is to the good And we'll see how it actually
plays out practically, of course, But he's been thinking about
this for a long time.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Yeah, Father the Pope had a meeting pop Leo with
sanchangmus Annius group and he said something interesting about doctrine.
Here's the quote. In the case of the church's social doctrine,
we need to make clear that the word doctrine has
another more positive meaning, without which dialogue itself would be meaningless. Doctrine,
(15:22):
on the other hand, as a serious, serene and rigorous discourse,
aims to teach us primarily how to approach problems and
even more importantly, how to approach people. It also helps
us to make prudential judgments when confronted with challenges. Father,
tell me about this notion of doctrine and rigor.
Speaker 2 (15:44):
Yes, well, this is I love this response because one
of the in the ecumenical movement, which is supposed to
draw Christians closer together, there's a wing of thought which
says doctrines divide man from man. Therefore, doctrines are the
obstacle to unity. And the response to the Church has
always been Jesus Christ that I'm the Way, the Truth
(16:06):
and the life and the second. The truth refers specifically
to the doctrine he taught God himself speaking is the
one who instructs his people on what to believe, how
to live, how to treat their neighbors. So I thought
this was very refreshing, because, you know, sad to say,
in the last Pontificate, people who appealed to doctrine were
(16:27):
often criticized by Pope Francis as being obstructionists, backwardists, all
kinds of everthets where he rigorous for instance, Yeah, and
you say to yourself, you know, the word consistency is
something we love to apply to thinkers and speakers, But
consistency is the positive way of saying, well, somebody is
(16:48):
obstinate and what they talk about, Well, obstinacy is not
the question consistency and conveying the truth of Christ. That's
what I think Pope Leo's getting to.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
Yeah, Bob. At the same time time, when he met
with inter religious leaders, he told them this just the
other day, cinidality and acumenism were closely linked. I wish
to assure you my intention to continue Pope Francis's commitment
to promoting the sonatyl character of the Catholic Church and
(17:18):
to develop new and concrete forms for an ever more
intense sinidality in the ecumenical field. End quote your reaction
to that, Some of the Brigolians out there are saying,
this is it. He's going to continue sinidality. Francis goes on, well,
I mean it could.
Speaker 4 (17:37):
I'd be very surprised, giving everything else we've been talking
about and everything else we know. If that is the case,
you know, it's an interesting thing. Cardinal Marx, who's one
of the radical cardinals in Germany, was interviewed by a
German paper the other day and even he said, who
knows what cinidality means? And if there's going to probably
be some change in the way that we approached this.
(17:58):
It kind of petered out after those three years with
under Pope Francis. As we've talked about before, he set
this a crazy assembly for twenty twenty eight, which is
so far in the future you have to think, Wow,
you know, he doesn't really want to deal with this
right away, But I would not be surprised if he
begins to use that term in a different way and
to try to find something more substantial consistent. His father
(18:23):
rightly says, I don't like the fact that he's using
that term because I think it already carries with it
a lot of baggage. And I'm a little bit worried
about this ecumenical outreach that I mean, the previous papacy
sat again to say it kind of faded off almost
into near universalism, that all religions are paths to God.
(18:45):
But let's give him a chance. Let's see what he
does with it. I always think back to a book
of Jacques Marytian's called Distinguished to unite, we have clear distinctions.
It's actually better, you know, well, when we're kind of
groping around on the dark, we don't know what everybody's agitated.
They don't know what they're doing. When you have some
clear decisions that are made and concrete steps that you're
(19:07):
going to take, people feel a lot calmer and they
kind of know what to do next.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
I would like to see some of that built into cinidality,
if we're going to retain that term.
Speaker 3 (19:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (19:15):
Well, if cinidality means listening and talking to people, and
he's confining it to the ecumenical sphere talking to other faiths,
maybe that's a very radically different vision than Pope France
has had. But as you said, we'll have to wait
and see us. Secretary of State Marco Rubio met with
his Vatican counterpart, as did the Vice President this past
(19:36):
week and the new pope, and Rubio suggested that Ukrainian
and Russian officials might consider meeting at the Vatican to
negotiate a settlement. He said, I think it's a place
that both sides would be comfortable going. Now President Trump
apparently is communicating that those negotiations may go forward. Father,
(19:57):
Why is the Vatican the place, the idea deal place
maybe to have these negotiations.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, the Vatican and the Pope represent moral authority, and
it represents a true desire for peace on the part
of the shepherd of the flock. It's already been demonstrated
when Pope Francis died that at the funerals, Zolensky and
President Trump met. It was one of the most amazing
(20:25):
photos I've ever seen in my life. Two chairs brought together,
you know, near the baptistery in Saint Peter's Basilica. No,
I think the Vatican.
Speaker 3 (20:34):
You know.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
It's a reminder too for believers, which you know also
affects non believers that those who believe in God think
they owe it to God to stop wars. It's atheists
who view war as just another tool in the toolbox
to accomplish their ends.
Speaker 3 (20:52):
So I hope this works.
Speaker 1 (20:55):
Yeah, yeah, Bob, do you want to comment on that?
I heard JD. Van saying the Vatican represents soft power,
But it's much more than that, isn't.
Speaker 4 (21:04):
Oh absolutely know. One of the problems, it seems to me,
is that the Russian Orthodox have had a brew under
the saddle about Catholicism for a long time, especially about
the Pope. But if you look around the world, where
is the place going to be where this negotiation can
take place? If you look at any particular country, it's
(21:25):
got its own history and its own relationship to America,
into Ukraine and too Russia, and so at the very least,
what we could say is that the Vatican is a
kind of a neutral corner and can maybe be a
neutral broker. This Pope has already taken a very different
stance toward Ukraine. He's very much more pro Ukrainian. Ukraine
(21:45):
obviously has been invaded by another country. So it'll be
interesting to see how this plays out. I'm still a
bit surprised that this has happened, But in those conversations,
maybe some things have gotten started. You've got a new person,
You've got a person who understands America because he is
an American, and maybe, just maybe that opens up enough
space that we can make some progress on this very difficult,
(22:07):
almost intractable war.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Well, and I think Pope Francis lost a little steam
just as a diplomat when you remember he called the
Russian patriarch, said he was Putin's altar boy. You know that,
I know, ticked off the Russians. So maybe with a
new man in the papacy, it changes the math a
bit more and brings down whatever hard feelings there were there.
(22:31):
There's a recent story in the USA today, shifting to
some cultural matters. Birth rates are close to in historic low.
Births have declined two percent a year from twenty fifteen
and twenty twenty. The United States is now below replacement
level at two point one children per woman. Father. I
(22:51):
see this as a lack of faith in the future
and even in oneself. What's the role of religion and
faith here?
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Well, there are a lot of factors leading to this.
A couple of that I come right to mind the
user contraception number one. Number two marrying later. If you
marry at age twenty to twenty five, more likelihood you'll
have more children than if you married these thirty five
to forty. So I think that's a problem. You're right
about faith, lack of faith in the future. It's also
a downside of materialism, which was denounced so eloquently by John,
(23:21):
Paul Benedict and Francis. If people say I will have
children when I'm comfortable, You're never comfortable. You had to
have children and then make yourself come by working harder.
Now I'll shift to the man who has children, because
I'm the observer. He can give us the on the
ground both of you.
Speaker 1 (23:40):
Yeah, well, I'll definitely, I'll definitely vouch for that. There's
no good time, but when they come, it's the perfect time. Bob.
My favorite statistic in this piece, this USA Today piece
was among all two hundred and thirty six countries, the
Central African Republic has the highest rate in the world
forty five point three five births per thousand people, and
(24:05):
the Vatican City State has the lowest four point two
one births per thousand people, which I think is an
important and probably good statistic, But Bob, this is a
huge impact for it has huge impacts on welfare programs
and the solidity of a country.
Speaker 4 (24:22):
Yeah, I mean, and not only that, I mean, as
Elon Musk has said, if you have these low birth
rates in three generations, your country has basically done and
you can't replace your native population by bringing in people
from elsewhere. And look, this is a really difficult problem.
Everything that father mentioned is I think the crux because
(24:42):
it's a cultural and an ethical and spiritual problem more
than it is anything else. There are several countries that
have tried. For example, Hungary has been very aggressive and
trying to promote births, and so they provide lavish subsidies
to women who have children. I think after third or
fourth children, you don't pay income tax any longer for
(25:02):
the rest of your life. And it hasn't really worked.
It's helped a little bit, but it's not primarily an
economic problem. That's the kind of thing that you know,
our mainstream media and our think tanks, they all kind
of view things in political and economic terms. At bottom,
this is a human problem. It spiritual and a moral
(25:24):
and just a kind of a cultural sense of what
kind of people live with our children going into the future.
I mean, I look at my grandkids and I say,
you know, I have to redouble my efforts because God
help us.
Speaker 3 (25:37):
If we don't change.
Speaker 4 (25:38):
Things, the world that they're going to live in is
even worse than the one that we're in.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Yeah. But what it's important, I think Bob to sell
young people. I tell young men, and I'm looking at
my co collaborator here on so many of our efforts,
and he's a young man. He got married young, he's
having his first child. I tell everybody I know, have
your children, have them young. You will find your purpose
and God will reveal to you what your life is for.
(26:02):
I mean That's what to me, that's what childhood did.
I mean, you know, having children did. It opened up
so many artistic vistas and parts of life that I
would never have that access to. So if you're young,
if you like that girl, if you love her, marry
her and have a bunch of kids. That would be
my advice. Another development. Father Robert Melhart. He is the
(26:24):
president of the Pontifical Institute of Safeguard Music at the Vatican.
He posted a video this week that went viral. This
is a little taste.
Speaker 4 (26:33):
In nomen epothris at feedy het speedy too Songti.
Speaker 1 (26:40):
In the name of the Father and of the Son
and of the hoodie spirit. Suddenly chant and Latin are
cool again. Father, what do you make of this? Teaching
people how to sing at masters with the Pope, who
I guess has brought Latin back.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Well, God bless the Pope for his beautiful Latin has
no doubt about it. I heard him, of course from
the low and these beautiful praying of Latin. No Latin
represents mystery.
Speaker 3 (27:06):
You know.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
It used to be the lingua franca of the Western world.
Then it became basically the language of the Church. It
is a mystery to people. But it's an attractive mystery
because they know that Latin chant is a union between
God and man, and it's an attempt to beautify words
(27:27):
that have a great resonance in and of themselves. So,
you know, we always try to underestimate the effect that
art has on people without them even knowing it. Yes,
and I think we have to remind ourselves. Just bringing
a kid into a museum and exposing him to opera
or Gregorian chant, it.
Speaker 3 (27:45):
Opens up a vista. Life is not about.
Speaker 2 (27:48):
Simply what I see in here on the everyday street.
There's more to life.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Yeah, yeah, again, mystery. I don't know who said it.
It might have been Pope Leo in his previous incarnation
as Robert Pravos, but I think he said, we have
to temper spectacle with mystery. You know that that's it.
We have spectacle all around us, but mystery is lacking. Bob,
(28:12):
do you want to speak to that before we jump
out that.
Speaker 4 (28:14):
Actually what he said. I think this was in twenty twelve. Yeah,
the church can't expect to use the tools of spectacle
to get to the depth and the mysteries that exist.
You know, in our tradition I mean, as his father
rightly says, I mean, it's these almost intangible things that
kind of enter into you unconsciously. Remember. I took my
(28:38):
oldest daughter one time, when she was about ten or eleven,
to the Brompton Oratory in London to a high Latin Mass,
and she walked out. She was a very musical and
artistic kid. And we walked out and she said to me, Dad,
was the mass like that all the time when you
were a kid. It just overwhelmed her. She had never
(28:58):
seen anything like that, and she'd been going around ever
since she was a kid. So, yeah, this stuff, and
we you know, we're kind of detecting that the Pope
likes this, and he's trying to promote it, and I mean,
let's just hope it catches fire, because we desperately need
it in our Western liturgy.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yeah. Well, I also help that hope that sharp pilgrimage,
which is thousands of young people who go out and
then they have the Tridentine Mass at the Basilica at
the end of the of the route. Let's hope that
goes forward. There's apparently some liturgical rigmarole happening between the
Vatican and the organizers and the French bishops of that event. Father,
(29:35):
do you want to speak to that at all?
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Well, you know it's tolerated by the Vatican when it
should be promoted. You know, this is really a sad thing.
Speaker 3 (29:43):
I mean.
Speaker 2 (29:43):
And what other organization when you have young, enthusiastic people
with children wanted to make a sacrificial walk over two days,
what organization would place restrictions on it to make it
more difficult. It's an organization that's lost its sense of
its purpose. So yeah, reality imposes itself. These people who
(30:03):
come to pray are not there as actors are paid.
They're there because they want to be there.
Speaker 3 (30:09):
Right, I not make life difficult for them.
Speaker 1 (30:11):
Yeah, I want to move on to something else, Bob.
This is a curious story. And with Pope Leo talking
about AI Catholic Answers, which is a group that for
decades has answered concerns about the faith, they recently launched
an AI priest online named Father Justin. I guess Father
Jerry was already taken. This didn't go well. Things went
(30:34):
sideways when Father Justin began to tell people I'm as
real as the faith we share, and then he claimed
to live in a cisi. He also told questioners that
they could baptize a baby in gatorade. Worse, Father Justin
heard someone's confession via x This is the text chain.
(30:55):
Catholic Answers has since defract Father Justin and, like so
many for Clergyman, he's now known as Justin the Theologian.
But I'm not kidding, Bob. I'm not sure we're ready
for this ai clergy, nor do we need it. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (31:12):
I think Catholic Answers is a wonderful organization, and I
don't know why they decided to do this sort of thing.
I mean it kind of unfortunately reproduced the horrors that
you expect when a slightly heterodox priest starts you reading
crazy theology and the next thing you know, he's laid aside.
I'm surprised that this bot isn't married to another.
Speaker 1 (31:34):
Father.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Your reaction, Yeah, well, I would say I need this
like I need a gaping head wound. I mean, this
is one of the worst things you could possibly do
is turn religion into a computer animated game in which
a priest is spouting nonsense. Now, I mean, we live
in this world with people dress up like cartoon characters
and expect us to think it's normal. Let's get back
(31:57):
to real people doing real things.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
Agree. You know the tangible, that human contact. This is
why God, in his wisdom left a chain of men
to continue the faith, and why we have a new pope,
and why we have parents, because you need that human contact.
God came and incarnated in a human being so that
we could have that personal touch. I hate this AI
(32:24):
computer generated replacement in almost every aspect of life, but
particularly when it comes to moral guidance and you know,
life lessons that you need. Very dangerous territory. I'm glad
they defract Father Justin and I hope we don't hear
from him again. Posse, thank you for being here. And
if you want more of the Arroyo Grande and who
(32:45):
doesn't subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or
Arroyo Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf of
Robert Royal and Father Gerald Murray. Until the Posse rides again,
Stay in the light. I'm r even Arroyo. We'll see
you next time. A Royal Grande is produced in partnership
with iHeart Podcasts and is available on the iHeartRadio Apple
(33:06):
wherever you get your podcasts,
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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