June 14, 2025 • 39 mins
In this episode of The Prayerful Posse, Raymond Arroyo is joined by Fr. Gerald Murray, Robert Royal, and Vatican journalist Diane Montagna to unpack Pope Leo XIV’s surprising move in China. The Pope has appointed a formerly underground bishop to serve in Fuzhou—with the approval of the CCP. Is this a continuation of the Vatican’s secretive China deal, or the start of a new direction? The panel discusses the implications for the underground Church and the future of Catholicism in China.
Then, Diane brings new insights into the fallout surrounding Fr. Marko Rupnik. With the disgraced artist’s mosaics finally being scrubbed from Vatican sites, is Pope Leo beginning to clean house? The conversation turns to justice, accountability, and what Rupnik’s long-standing protection says about the past—and the future—of Church leadership. The Posse also reacts to the quiet removal of Archbishop Zanchetta and Pope Leo’s heartfelt call for priests to live lives of credibility and integrity.
Finally, a fiery debate erupts over immigration, ICE raids, and how Church leaders are responding. Have some bishops blurred the line between mercy and lawlessness? The team explores how to balance justice with compassion in a time of national crisis. Plus: a viral papal moment with a bucket hat–wearing bishop proves Pope Leo’s got both reverence and media savvy.
🔔 Subscribe for more inspiring conversations: Arroyo Grande, available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, and everywhere you listen, watch & stream.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hope Leo named a new bishop in China. What does
this mean visa VI the Vatican China deal.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Is this a new.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Direction or a continuation the Prayerful Posse.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We'll tell you next.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to a Royal Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where
we dive into matters of faith and its impact on culture.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Let's convene the Posse.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Joining me now, Father Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the
Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal, editor.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
In chief of the Catholic Thing, and I'm raimed An.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Arroyo Vatican journalist Diane Montano will join us a little later.
Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast now on iHeart, Apple, Spotify,
or on YouTube at a Royo Grande Show. We don't
want you to miss an episode of the Posse. We've
been covering gens the Vatican secret deal with China for years. Essentially,
it allows Chinese authorities the right to approve and even
(00:56):
choose bishops, allegedly with the Pope's approval. At least that's
how it's supposed to work. They actually appointed two bishops
after the death of Pope Francis when there was no
pontiff to approve anything. The Vatican has acknowledged that the
Chinese have repeatedly violated that secret deal. Now, Pope Leo
the fourteenth has appointed Bishop Joseph Lynn Juan Twin as
(01:21):
auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Fuzhau in China. The
CCP has approved the appointment. So father, is the Pope
signaling that he will continue to abide by the China
Deal or is this something else happening.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I think that's what's happening, Raymond. You know that the
China Deal is in. He didn't sign it. It was
signed by Pope Francis and the Cardinal Secretary of State Paroleine,
So he's continuing to work within that framework. The interesting
thing was that he choose is now to make a
Vatican sanction or approval of an auxiliary bishop who had
(02:00):
in the underground church. And from what I've read, he
has This underground bishop now is being recognized by the
Chinese Communist government because the bishop that he's going to
be an auxiliary to had a good opinion of him
and they got along. So there's not a lot of
clarity on what led to this, but that's the way
the whole China deal's been. But at least we have
(02:22):
now a vaticant approval of someone who was in the
underground church therefore was a very faithful Catholic for all
those years.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
He is a seventy three year old bishop, Bob who
was consecrated, as Father said clandestinely in twenty seventeen, reportedly
underground bishop loyal to Rome.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How do you read this, Bob? Is this?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I mean, it is the first time the pope has
actually put forward a nominee that was approved, whereas in
the past they were imposed. And Francis just said, yes.
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Well, I have to say, I mean, I'm trying to
be hopeful about this. We're dealing with a communist regime
and we know what that means. They are perfectly happy
to manipulate and look like their cooperative when they want
and they think it might be to their advantage. But
of course, as you just said, Raymond, when there was
no pope, they just went right ahead and appointed a
visions I have to say, my heart kind of sank
(03:14):
when Matteo Brunei, the spokesman for the Vaticans, said that
the Chinese had accepted the nomination by Pope Leo as
if oh wow, you know, gee, they actually agreed to
somebody that we sent over there. Now, look, he seems
to be a good guy. He existed in the underground Church,
which has been under oppression and threat, and we still
(03:37):
don't know what's ultimately going to happen with that. People
like Cardinals Zen are very worried because it may mean
the end of the underground Church and they may be integrated,
and that seems to be part of the scheme of
this agreement. One of the things that worried me the
most in the news stories that I saw is that
he agreed. He said he was perfectly loyal to the regime.
He would, you know, he would try to help to
(04:00):
all Chinese to be loyal and good citizens of Communists China,
and he accepts centization as the framework for his activities,
which I hope don't includes the church, because what we
know of centitization means, you know, putting up pictures of
President g and rewriting the Gospels in certain places. So look,
(04:24):
it's a mixed bag, but I don't like it. I
don't trust communists. I think that the signs are still
very ambivalent. I hope it goes well, but boy, it
would take let's say, several miracles for.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
That to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I've heard two possibilities here, one saying Leo is keeping
the Francis China deal alive. The other claim, and I've
heard this from some folks in who've been in China,
they claim that this is the first time the pope
has made the first move and actually appointed a bishop.
France has accepted the people China sent over, at times
(04:57):
dislocating sitting listit bishops.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
So, Father, what do you believe to be true here?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I really wish I know, Raymond.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It's interesting to hear that information because it was presented
as a Vatican initiative that the Chinese government agreed to.
Now the question is, was there a you know, back
channel communication before that was published which said, go ahead,
send it to us, will approve it. And what Bob
says is very troubling. The cnicization of the Church makes
China and its government the primary object of loyalty, and
(05:29):
then the Church is a servant of that government in
that country, which we never say, you know, we you know,
I'm God's servant first, and then the kings.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
It also turns the church and every Mass into a
propaganda tool for the Chinese communists. I mean they're inserting
Ji and Mau into the stories of the Gospel like
they walk onto the scene. I mean, this is crazy,
and everybody under eighteen is forbidden from going to Mass.
I don't see how the church can accept this at all, Bob,
(05:59):
I'll give you the last word.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, look, Leo has been presented with a
very bad situation, so maybe you're right that what he's
trying to do here is keep this thing alive for
the time being. Pope Francis himself admitted that China there
were going to be Chinese Catholics who are going to
suffer under the new regime, but he he just was
willing to accept that because he has He and Cardinal
(06:23):
Pauline kept saying, you can't go on forever with this
divided church in the country. But I don't know that
this is a solution. It seems to me that the
citiization goes so far as to say that there shall
be no loyalties to entities outside of China, and so
the church that is in communion with Rome. And this
(06:45):
was the sticking point that Benedict the sixteenth always brought up.
It's a matter of ecclesiology that the church has got
to be the church, and the church has got to
be in union with the successor of Peter. It can't
be run entirely by the government. And you know, whatever
connections it allows to a place like Rome, that's just
a concession because the focus is internal to China.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Ye, it's worries.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We have to watch this deal and how it progresses.
I mean, it's a Faustian bargain for those poor people,
though under the boot of communism. Another story this week
we've been covering, the Vatican appears to a finally removed
artwork by disgrace Jesuit father Marco Rupnik from its official websites.
(07:30):
The use of Rupnik's artwork has persisted not only on
Vatican sites, but in Catholic churches and facilities around the world.
Not long ago, Vatican press officials had claimed the Rupnik
art should remain because we're all sinners. Bob, what do
you think drove this turn about?
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Well, you know, we can't tell because there hasn't been
any explanation coming out from the Vatican press office. But
it's not hard to imagine that the people there seems
to be a particular figure who was loyal to Rupnik,
a woman who is part of the Vatican Press Office,
and it seems like she was protecting the brand, so
(08:09):
to speak. She was keeping those images up on the website.
It's not hard to imagine that other forces now within
the Vatican Press Office know that the boss doesn't like this.
Even if he didn't, he didn't order it explicitly. You
just get the impression from Pope Leo that that's not him.
That Rupnik, for some reason, as a jesuit and then
(08:31):
an ex jesuit, continued to be protected by Pope Francis
or by somebody for some reason that seems to have disappeared. So,
whether this is a sea change or it's just a
kind of a recognition that, look, we're not going to
do that anymore. It's still a good thing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Father.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Why did it take the death of one pope and
the election of another to do the right thing here?
And I mean this man is charged with horrible crimes.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Yeah, No, the Roupnik case is going to be a
case study and the failure of the pontificate of Pope Francis,
and I think it was motivated by his personal appreciation
of Rupnik, without taking due consideration of the complaints of
Rupnik's victims. You know, Rupnik was found guilty of having
absolved someone with whom he had sexual relations. That's a
(09:17):
canonical violation of results in excommunication. And the only one
who can lift that is the Pope. Well, about two
weeks after this penalty was imposed, he was freed from it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It was lifted.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
There was no explanation, but it's clear that could only
be the Pope or the Pope authorizing a delegate to
go ahead and do it. Then Rupnik was investigated a
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
The evidence was brought forward.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
The Jesuits decided we have to do something, so they
start an investigation. Rupnik would not cooperate with the investigation,
and as a member of a religious order, if the
superior says, show up for an interview, you got to
do it. He was thrown out of the Jesuits. Then
the Vatican said, well, we can't prosecute him because there's
a statute limitations. Even though the statute of limitations is
(10:03):
regularly waived in Vatican proceedings.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Pope Francis was asked about it by.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
An interview, he said, well, you know, we always wave
it if it's sexual abuse of a minor, but with
adults is something different. Now, that standard, that standard just
made me want to fall back and get sick. Rupnik
was taking advantage of novice nuns, and he was claiming
that there was a spiritual purpose to sex abuse and
it helped him to be a good artist. Now you're
(10:31):
watching enough crime shows to know criminals know how to
lie and manipulate people very well. And that's what happened here.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
So and those who are pathological use their sin, use
their crime, and create relics of them, by the way,
like little mementos. That's what happened here. He abused these
poor sisters psychologically, physically, and then used the outpouring of
that sin in the art world. That's all over the
(11:01):
place in churches. I mean, I think it's profane art
and really should be removed.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I'll give quick to both of you before I go
to Diane Montga.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Bob mean, somebody, I don't remember who said this, but
somebody made the point that, look, Carivar.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Joe was no saint.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
He was a great artist, but he was no saint.
But he never used his sinfulness to advance his art.
And then on top of this, and I think this
is the most pressing point of all in the church
that is trying to finally turn the page on this
abused crisis, that the victims are still alive. And then
(11:37):
every time they go into a place where those images
are up, you know they must be triggered, they must
be be traumatized in some fashion. And other people who've
been sexually abused. I mean here in Washington, d C.
Where I live, they've covered over the Rupnik mosaics in
the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. The same with the
(11:58):
Knights of Columbus up in New So you know, if
a woman comes in who has been abused, she is
confronted and people know about this, they aren't immediately having
in their face images that were produced out of sacrilegious
activities that they're almost unprecedented in the history of the church.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
No, no, and the fact that their sexual abuse only
takes it to another level. For more on what took
place of the Vatican this week, we are joined by
Diane Montagna, Vatican journalist and an honorary Prayerful Posse member. Diane,
I want to start with the Rupnik case. He was tried,
he was excommunicated, and then he was restored, and later
(12:38):
the statute of limitations were lifted. Where does this stand.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Now, Yes, well, I mean, Raymond, the latest that we've
heard from the Vatican is that, in a sense it's
very slow moving and installed. The last we heard from
the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith is that
they couldn't find the judges appropriate judges to take care
of this case. I think in part because there has
(13:02):
been so much media attention to this case where they
get concerned that perhaps the judges view might be biased
a bit from all of the reporting that there's been
in the media. But it has been slow walked for
quite some time now, though I expect. I mean, the
signs that we're seeing now in terms of even the
Rupnik art being taken down from the Vatican News site,
(13:25):
I think is a sign and is widely seen here
in Rome as a sign that the tide may be
shifting in regard to Rupnik.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Did you have any other conversations about this this week?
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Yeah, so, I've talked to a couple of people. Of course, Adnicospontoni,
the Italian journalist wrote a great article explaining everything for
the Novo Bussola Daily Compass and when she pointed out
that it was Cardinal O'Malley that a year ago wrote
a letter to the Pope requesting that entered the Dicastri
(13:56):
for Secretariat for Communications, requesting this art taken down specifically
from the Vatican News site, but nothing was done. So,
I mean, I've talked to some people within the Vatican
who deal with in this realm and they say that
(14:16):
so one thing is that you know, no one in
the ordinary office of Vatican News knew anything about this happening.
Most of them found out from the media. Now, what
that suggests is that this was taken care of, certainly
at a high level, was it. And people say that
Paulo Ruffini, the Prefect for the Secretariat for Communications, had
(14:41):
to have been involved. And then another key figure that
would be Natasha Govicar. She's written books with Rupnik, she
has a good relationship with Rupnik, and she's a Slovenian
theologian and she's the current director of the Theological Pastoral
Department of the Secretariat for Communications, and this is a
position she's held since twenty sixteen. By and large, it's
(15:04):
interesting to know the Rupnik images appeared on to illustrate
either feast days or Saint's Days on the Vatican website,
and that was her department. She was a friend of Rupnik,
and so they continued, despite please even from the victims,
to be taken down.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Outrageous, just outrageous.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
It thought even that there was this was a preemptive
mood move from the head of the Secretary for Communications,
seeing that maybe the tide is turning, or it was
there was a call from higher up saying it needs
to come down.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Central to this Rupnik case, I mean you mentioned Cardinal
Tucci Fernandez, the head of the doc Trinal department at
the Vatican. He's the person charged with finding the judges
in that case. There was a report Diane, earlier this
week that the Pope had met with Fernandez and decided
to extend his leadership at the dicast of the Doctor Faith.
(16:01):
But there have been a lot of problems with that
initial report. Is there any credibility to this.
Speaker 6 (16:07):
Well, I think this really has to be treated as
a rumor at this point. Raymond. You know, there was
one report that came out. It was based on anonymous sources,
and certainly sometimes anonymous sources could be correct. But in
this case, one article out in Spanish media that it
perhaps the person who wrote it was thinking of the
(16:28):
temporary confirmation that Pope Leo has given to all of
the Dicastri heads. I just think that it's way too
early to assume that that report is correct.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And for those joining us late in the game.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Cardinal Fernandez was the ghost writer of a lot of
Pope Francis's works, including The Blessing for Gay Unions, La
Datto c The Climate and Cyclical Anything I'm missing, Well.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
There was the document on Apparitions Human Dignity. But I mean, certainly, Raymond,
the most you know, one thing that Pope Leo has
stressed practically every time that he's spoken from the beginning
of his pontificate is his particular desire for unity and communion,
and he's spoken explicitly about how he sees that unit.
(17:18):
He rightly sees that unity as rooted in Christ. The
closer we are to Christ, the more united we are
amongst ourselves, the further we get away from Him. That's,
you know, So that is certainly something he's made a priority.
So the idea. I think we should take the report
about Cardinal Fernandez with the grain of salt, because surely
the Pope knows what a controversial and even I hate
(17:42):
to say, scandalous figure Cardinal Fernandez is for some of
his writings from years ago.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Diane, Pope Leo had a meeting this week that got
too little attention, really, because again it's a it's a
prism into where he is, where his mind is, how
he regards the church and priests within it. He met
with the priest of Rome and he told them, quote,
you are all precious in the eyes of God and
(18:08):
in the realization of His plan. I ask you this
with all my heart of a father and a pastor.
Let us all commit to be incredible and exemplary priests.
How did this message startle people in Rome? I mean,
it's very different from that of his predecessor.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Oh, it went over very very well among the priest Raymond.
I mean I spoke to a few priests different backgrounds,
and they said, you know, when priest said that this
pope radiates an extraordinary kindness and serenity, and it's the opposite,
to be honest, of what they experienced years ago. They
(18:46):
said the climate was so warm. I think there were
three hundred parish priests and maybe five thousand clergy of Rome,
and so I think it's been seen as a real
triumph the Pope. Certainly he stressed spiritual life and the
importance of priests growing in their spiritual life. As you
pointed out, he thanked the priests for their service, for
(19:07):
their dedication to the Diocese of Roman to souls. So
the message was right on. It was extremely well received
and marks a very good turn for the morale among
the clergy.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Here.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I noticed that Archbishop Zanceta, who finally left Rome after
years of protection by Pope Francis, now he was set
to be deported to face a prison sentence in Argentina.
He was a charred found guilty of sexual malfeasance with seminarians,
(19:40):
and not just one or two. He's now facing the music.
Why was he in the Vatican for so long, Diane.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
Well, he was protected by Pope Francis, which I hate
to say. Pope Francis was his spiritual father, his confessor.
He allowed him to come back here during I think
it coincided with the investigation itself, and he gave him
a position in Apso, which is that takes care of
(20:08):
the apostolic patrimony of the Holy See. And then after
he after he served four months in prison, was then
told by the courts that he could be allowed to
serve the rest of his sentence in the monastery. For
health reasons, he was brought here to Rome. His time
in Jamni hospital is very much shrounded in mystery. And
(20:32):
just a month after Pope Leo has been elected, he's
on a plane back to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So yeah, it looks like Pop Leo's cleaning out the stables,
gently and quietly, but cleaning them out nonetheless, Let's hope
more of that continues. Diane Montana, thank you so much
for being here, and we will check in with you
as a day's unfold.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
Great to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Let's pick up on what Diane was telling us.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Posse zank Keetta was convicted of sexually abusing seminarians. As
I mentioned a moment ago, he's been in Rome since
November seeking medical treatment, which, as Diane said, there's a
lot of mystery surrounding that. Now he's reportedly back in Argentina.
He's going to serve a four year sentence at a monastery. Father,
(21:18):
why not send him to jail.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Well, the fact of the matter is he was in jail.
He was there for about two months or so, and
then mysteriously the Argentine judicial authorities put him under house
arrest and he was living in a convent. And then
while he's living in a convent under house arrest, they
allow him to go to Rome allegedly for medical treatment. Well,
I defy you to tell me. There isn't a doctor
(21:42):
in Buenos Aires who could take care of him. But
for some reason, he was allowed to go there and
spend six months. Now he's back, he's going to ask
for have his sent and suspended.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I read and.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
This is a man who lied to the pope. He
was originally caught because he used his cell phone to
record imral videos of himself and he gave it to
one of his media people in the diocese and said,
there's some photos here of a church and I'd like
to put them on the dasa's website. The man found
the video, which was disgusting, reported it to the nuncio
(22:15):
and authorities.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
It got to Rome. So what does zen Ketta do.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
He goes to Rome and tells about Well, my phone
was hacked, you know, the Anthony Wiener defense, you know,
I mean, it's just absolutely disgusting, and the Pope treated
him with kid gloves. There's a reason for that, said
to say, historically, this man was a spiritual direct when
Pope Francis was the archbishop of Buenos Airis and he
worked as an official in the bishop's conference. So Zanketta
(22:40):
was the first bishop named by Pope Francis. He was
protected when serious evidence was shown that he was living
in an immoral and perverse lifestyle. Then he's convicted and
he's given all these benefits. So no, it's a disgrace
the canonical with cib of being a crime in this
in Argentinian law, it's canonical to commit sex abuse against seminarians,
(23:02):
which is what he's convicted of. It was announced years
ago that there was a canonical process. We never heard
another word of it. Yeah, I call upon the Holy
See to tell us is there still a canonical process?
Was a terminating We never knew this man needs to
be removed from the priesthood. He manipulated his position as
a bishop to get seminarians to commit immoral acts with him.
(23:25):
He compelled them to the kids had no choice. This
is disgusting.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, Bob, your thoughts on his quick exit to Argentina
with the arrival of Pope Leo. I mean we talked
about Pope Leo earlier telling the priests you have to
live your lives fully and be credible. Again, that's important.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, you know, I was struck as I was looking
in the news reports about how he had apparently had
to have some kind of heart surgery, And I agree
with you, it's hard to believe that a wealthy and
pretty much developed country like Argentina doesn't have the capability
of doing heart surgery. But then what happened, and is
that he was supposed to go back sometime in April,
(24:05):
and he continued to stay.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I mean, he'd been through.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
The process if there was an operation and when it
has come forth and actually confirm that. But he went
through whatever medical treatment and recovery took place, and then
he stayed in Rome, and then all this conversation started
about you know, is he going to go back to
the monasteries. He can wear an ankle bracelet, Is he
can to try to get the conviction or at least
(24:30):
the sentence community it or something, and he's still there
until the pope dies. Then when the new guy comes
in again. You know, like with the rupnik Art, it's
not hard to imagine that someone turned to him and said, look,
that American pope, he wants you to go back to
(24:50):
South America.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Ah, well he got somebody got the message, and that's
a good thing. A relative to this, the USCCB issued
it's twenty twenty four report on sex abuse allegations against
Catholic clergy. Now this is restricted to July first, twenty
twenty three to June thirtieth, twenty twenty four. During that period,
(25:13):
the abuse scandal has cost dioceses nearly two hundred and
forty three million dollars. There were nine hundred and two
allegations of sexual abuse by clergy by a reported eight
hundred and fifty five victims. They say the number of
allegations have dropped sharply since twenty nineteen, when there were
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Five hundred accusations filed. Father Some of the.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Reportage on this story seems to focus on the sharp
drop in allegations because there was some investigation of each
of these charges. But I mean nine hundred and plus
allegations that's still a pretty high number.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yes, it is, and we have to take into consideration
the allegations can date before the time period that we're
looking at. So, in other words, not all nine one hundred,
et cetera allegations for that calendar year that they're using. Nonetheless,
look at it. The sex abuse revelations came out in
two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We started getting these.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
One of the archizes of Boston was compelled to reveal
what they knew. And now we're getting nine hundred more
cases and you know, eight hundred victims. You know, given
the possibility that there are some false accusations, that number
may be a little high. But the general understanding and
canoness have looked this. This is over time. Most of these
(26:33):
charges are merited. In other words, something happened, something was
done to somebody.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
This is a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, well we got to do something.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
When you dig into the data, and again the USCCB
is reporting this, they claim that seven percent of those
allegations were deemed credible, sixty two percent were unable to
be proven, and five percent were unsubstantiated twenty six per
our ongoing investigations. Father So, of course, due process should
(27:05):
and must be followed in all these cases. But why
does this issue continue to persist to such a degree, Bob,
after all of the attention and time spent on this
and money.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Yeah, I wish that those numbers had been broken down
a little bit differently because there was another statistic in
that reporting that is very odd. It that's something like
over fifty percent of the priests were accused or now dead.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So, you know, we.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
It's like a you know, a polluted stream. It's bad,
so you stop polluting it and it gets a little
bit purer and a little bit puer and a little
bit purer. But I agree with Father, these are large
numbers and that means unfortunately, we're not near the end
of this, and we need to get a grip on
this and fast. So, you know, the bishops seemed to
(27:52):
want to present this as if it's encouraging news, and
maybe it is, but I think that they need to
do a better job of then why it's encouraging if
it's true that only fifty percent of those are really
live priests today. Okay, so now we're down to four
hundred and fifty, which in fifty states is still a lot.
(28:13):
But the church has not only a difficult pr problem here,
which is not doing very well at it's also still
got a disciplinary problem that I hope our bishops finally
get a grip on.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, you know, Bob, as our friend Cardinal George pel
used to say, you know, moral bankruptcy usually precedes financial bankruptcy,
and we've seen that in dioceses after Diocese Washington, d C.
Which we talked about on the show this week, New Orleans,
my own Diocese of New Orleans. All across the country.
You see these dioceses declaring bankruptcy because they paid hundreds
(28:47):
of millions of dollars over this scandal. And still there
doesn't seem to be an intentionality to either screen these
candidates or make sure that everybody's towing the line here.
It's an ongoing problem. Moving on to another story, big
one this week, the protests and riots in Los Angeles
that it resulted in ice the immigration enforcement raids in
(29:09):
that city last week. On Friday, June sixth, Archbishop Jose
Gomez of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles issued the following statement,
we all agree quote. We all agree that we don't
want undocumented immigrants who are known terrorists or violent criminals
in our communities, But there is no need for the
government to carry out enforcement actions in a way that
(29:30):
provokes fear and anxiety among ordinary, hard working immigrants and
their families. Other nations have a coherent immigration policy that
respects the natural rights of the people to emigrate in
search of a better life and also ensures control of
their borders. America should too. It's been almost forty years
(29:50):
since the last reform of our immigration laws. That's too long,
and it's time to do something about that. End quote father.
In that statement, Artificial Golmez called for restraint and calm
from everyone involved. Should it have made a stronger statement.
Do you think condemning the violence, the anarchy on the streets,
the violent attacks on law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Well, I think a subsequent statement would have to add
to it would have been very useful, because precisely, if
you know, they've been profane graffiti, they've been throwing objects,
they've been burning cars. I mean, this isn't a protest
against a police action in as much as it's kind
of like an action to delegitimize the whole government to
say we're going to create anarchy in the streets until
(30:33):
you stop exercising authority. So that's troubling. And the other
thing is why would ordinary immigrants meaning people here legally,
why would they be troubled when criminal aliens meaning because
that's the focus of the ICE action now illegal aliens
who are known to have committed crimes or accused of crimes,
why should they be afraid when they're rounded up? Typically
(30:56):
illegal alien criminals live in the community with other immigrants,
so they terrorized them.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
So that statement, unfortunately was.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Not supported enough of law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And what's the context?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
How many?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
How many million people came in under the Biden ministry?
Twenty one million.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
That's what they said.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
That's what that's that's what at least the current administration
is reporting that twenty one million people entered the country.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
We exist.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
So another the context here is not, well, there are
a few people came over the border, why bother everyone
else just refuge. There's a massive load of people who
are causing problems and they were released onto the streets
by the Biden administration.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And Bob we have on the books, I mean archificial
gummas mentioned the immigration reform. There are laws on the books.
You can't come illegally without permission or overstate your visa.
In the United States, that's the law of the land.
It's federal law. So I don't know what are we
just calling for open open borders should be the immigration
(31:53):
policy of the land, so everybody can come and go
as they please.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah, I thought this was a disappointing statement from the archbishop. Prey, generally,
I think is a good man. I think he did
issue another statement about other people, about people being calm
and not resorting to violence.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I was glad that he'd do that.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
But look, you know, I frequently when this debate comes up,
it frustrates me that our bishops still talk about the
right to emigrant. There is no right to immigrant. You
know that you have the right to apply to enter
another country. You don't have a right to enter in
another country, and you do have a right under international
(32:32):
law if you are a refugee. Now this is a
different category. This means if you are in a country
where your life is in imminent danger. You know, say
there's a terrible regime and you're a protester and they're
trying to kill you and your family, Yes, you have
a right to asylum. I mean you're protecting a person's life.
But we have already an immigration system. My wife is
(32:55):
an immigrant. My wife was born in France. My wife
is an immigrant, and she gets furious. I'm actually the
commone in the family.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
It is in our family too that's enraged as well.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
They got in line and they back in those days,
you have to have a sponsoring family here who said
you would not go on the welfare roles, that they
would take care of you if you couldn't find work,
et cetera. You know, what about the rights of the
people who are not getting jobs right now, who find
it hard to get housing because it's more expensive because
there is a glut of illegals and all those other
(33:33):
you know, secondary problems in addition to the crime. But
there are those secondary problems that we need to protect
against and it's our government that has a responsibility to
prevent those problems from occurring.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Before I leave this very quickly, the newly appointed archbishop
or bishop brother of San Diego. He was appointed by
Pope Leo just weeks ago. He's now sent out a
statement and by all indications he as a you know,
Orthodox man, but he sent out a statement encouraging priests
to go down to the courthouse and join any immigrant
(34:09):
who's there for their hearings just to support them so
they'll be treated. Well, Well, some of these people might
be criminals. I mean, is everyone who came into the
country just entitled to protection by the Catholic clergy father
I'll start now, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Think it would be better if they get a list
of these people and what they're accused of. You know,
why is it that immigration is acting against them aside
from the fact they're here legally, Because right now they're
not rounding up every single person here legally, They're focusing
on the people who are threats to the community. Right,
it would be better to contact ICE and say, well,
you know, we're our priests are concerned. Would just inform
us who these people are and what they're accused of,
(34:46):
Because you know, if you've got a child molestor who's
been convicted in ex country gets in here and is
therefore liable to do the same thing, why should I
stand next to him in line just to show support.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
I don't know the guy.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
And by the the way, child wissons had no right
to be in this country illegally, so I find that
to be an unreflective comment on his part.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, it's a it's a kind of you know, preferential
option for any immigrant. I wish they had this kind
of love for the Latin Mass, you know, where we
just stand with the supporters of the Latin Mass every Sunday.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But if you're an immigrant, they're right there.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I mean, the truth is, there was a there was
a guy who was throwing matoul cocktails at police officers.
He was arrested just last week, charged by the LA
District of the US Attorney there. He's charged with attacking
law enforcement. And then they find out he's an illegal
alien who's been deported once and was charged with a
(35:44):
grand theft auto charge back in Anaheim.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I mean, these are not people we should be standing with.
Bob will give you the last word on this.
Speaker 5 (35:53):
Well and the loss California are really absurdive about these people.
I had a friend about twenty years ago. He he
noticed that there was a law in California that you
could get special benefits if you were not born in
the United States and you were a Spanish speaker. And
he was a Canadian who is as English and background
(36:13):
as you can possibly be, but he had learned Spanish
somewhere along the way. I think he lived on in
Nicaragua something. So he showed up at an office. He
was a journalist, so he decided to write a story
about this get this absurd idea? Yeah, well I was
born elsewhere Spanish. You know, it's you know, we're beginning
by cleaning out the difficulty persons that are here, but
(36:35):
there's much larger argument that's going to have to be
made about what are we going to be doing and
to wait for Congress to pass some kind of big, beautiful,
you know, immigration bill. I think is I've told the
bishops this. They've asked me to speak to them a
couple of times about immigration. I don't think that that's
going to happen just because of the way our two
parties are right now. But in the meantime, is as
(36:57):
unpleasant as it is sometimes to have to do these things,
I don't think that ICE is going into restaurants randomly
or going into home depots randomly. I think that they've
got the goods on the people that they're going after,
and for the time being, we shouldn't listen to these
people who are apologizing as if these are just ordinary
farm workers or you know McDonald's workers. They're not the
(37:19):
people who were going after right now should not be here.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Well, okay, I want to end on a happy note
or a funny note at least. There was a moment
at the end of Pope Leo's Wednesday audience and an
Italian bishop came up to him wearing a bucket hat
and the Pope gently tells him, right here, take your
hat off so we can get a picture. He kind
of he does it very kind of subtly, but you
(37:44):
can see he's clearly telling him take the hat off
in obedience. The bishop does and then post for the photo.
I loved this moment, Potzi, because you have a pope
who not only understands decorum. You don't wear a Gilligan
hat in front of the Pope. But he's me savvy.
Bob will give you a crack at this.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
And then Father, Yeah, I mean, there's no question that
he has a certain sense of propriety and decorum. And
in this world where everything is up for grabs, the
fact of a figure like that who clearly is a
holy man, whatever decisions he made, he may make good
decisions or bad decisions. But in addition to being a
(38:23):
holy man. I think he's already impressed the world with
the dignity that he's brought back to the office of Pope.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Father last word, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
And you know everybody who's tempted to do, you know,
put on funny hats at mass and make clown masses
in the light, better pay attention. You know, the Pope
is conscious and by the way in the world we
live in, a photograph is forever and it can be everywhere,
and it can you know, the Pope doesn't want bishops
showing up in Gilligan hats. As you say, those are
for the golf courts. I mean that goes back to
(38:54):
caddy shack, you know. I mean those kind of hats
are really old and I don't think.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well they're back Mogue father, all the kids there can
I get it. You're into the sun, you're outside for
a general audience. But when you come up to see
the boat taking it on off chance, we will leave
it there. Posse.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Look, if you want more of the Arroyo Grande prayerful Posse,
please subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or
a Royal Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf
of Robert Royal father Gerald Murray.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Until the posse rides again. Stay the course, follow the light.
I'm raiming a arroyo. We'll see you next time. Bye, guys.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
A Royal Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
and is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts
Hope Leo named a new bishop in China. What does
this mean visa VI the Vatican China deal.
Speaker 2 (00:06):
Is this a new.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Direction or a continuation the Prayerful Posse.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
We'll tell you next.
Speaker 3 (00:13):
Thanks.
Speaker 1 (00:17):
Welcome to a Royal Grande series, The Prayerful Posse, where
we dive into matters of faith and its impact on culture.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Let's convene the Posse.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
Joining me now, Father Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the
Archdiocese of New York, and Robert Royal, editor.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
In chief of the Catholic Thing, and I'm raimed An.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
Arroyo Vatican journalist Diane Montano will join us a little later.
Go subscribe to the Arroyo Grande podcast now on iHeart, Apple, Spotify,
or on YouTube at a Royo Grande Show. We don't
want you to miss an episode of the Posse. We've
been covering gens the Vatican secret deal with China for years. Essentially,
it allows Chinese authorities the right to approve and even
(00:56):
choose bishops, allegedly with the Pope's approval. At least that's
how it's supposed to work. They actually appointed two bishops
after the death of Pope Francis when there was no
pontiff to approve anything. The Vatican has acknowledged that the
Chinese have repeatedly violated that secret deal. Now, Pope Leo
the fourteenth has appointed Bishop Joseph Lynn Juan Twin as
(01:21):
auxiliary bishop of the Archdiocese of Fuzhau in China. The
CCP has approved the appointment. So father, is the Pope
signaling that he will continue to abide by the China
Deal or is this something else happening.
Speaker 4 (01:37):
I think that's what's happening, Raymond. You know that the
China Deal is in. He didn't sign it. It was
signed by Pope Francis and the Cardinal Secretary of State Paroleine,
So he's continuing to work within that framework. The interesting
thing was that he choose is now to make a
Vatican sanction or approval of an auxiliary bishop who had
(02:00):
in the underground church. And from what I've read, he
has This underground bishop now is being recognized by the
Chinese Communist government because the bishop that he's going to
be an auxiliary to had a good opinion of him
and they got along. So there's not a lot of
clarity on what led to this, but that's the way
the whole China deal's been. But at least we have
(02:22):
now a vaticant approval of someone who was in the
underground church therefore was a very faithful Catholic for all
those years.
Speaker 1 (02:28):
He is a seventy three year old bishop, Bob who
was consecrated, as Father said clandestinely in twenty seventeen, reportedly
underground bishop loyal to Rome.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
How do you read this, Bob? Is this?
Speaker 1 (02:42):
I mean, it is the first time the pope has
actually put forward a nominee that was approved, whereas in
the past they were imposed. And Francis just said, yes.
Speaker 5 (02:51):
Well, I have to say, I mean, I'm trying to
be hopeful about this. We're dealing with a communist regime
and we know what that means. They are perfectly happy
to manipulate and look like their cooperative when they want
and they think it might be to their advantage. But
of course, as you just said, Raymond, when there was
no pope, they just went right ahead and appointed a
visions I have to say, my heart kind of sank
(03:14):
when Matteo Brunei, the spokesman for the Vaticans, said that
the Chinese had accepted the nomination by Pope Leo as
if oh wow, you know, gee, they actually agreed to
somebody that we sent over there. Now, look, he seems
to be a good guy. He existed in the underground Church,
which has been under oppression and threat, and we still
(03:37):
don't know what's ultimately going to happen with that. People
like Cardinals Zen are very worried because it may mean
the end of the underground Church and they may be integrated,
and that seems to be part of the scheme of
this agreement. One of the things that worried me the
most in the news stories that I saw is that
he agreed. He said he was perfectly loyal to the regime.
He would, you know, he would try to help to
(04:00):
all Chinese to be loyal and good citizens of Communists China,
and he accepts centization as the framework for his activities,
which I hope don't includes the church, because what we
know of centitization means, you know, putting up pictures of
President g and rewriting the Gospels in certain places. So look,
(04:24):
it's a mixed bag, but I don't like it. I
don't trust communists. I think that the signs are still
very ambivalent. I hope it goes well, but boy, it
would take let's say, several miracles for.
Speaker 3 (04:36):
That to happen.
Speaker 2 (04:37):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (04:37):
I've heard two possibilities here, one saying Leo is keeping
the Francis China deal alive. The other claim, and I've
heard this from some folks in who've been in China,
they claim that this is the first time the pope
has made the first move and actually appointed a bishop.
France has accepted the people China sent over, at times
(04:57):
dislocating sitting listit bishops.
Speaker 2 (05:00):
So, Father, what do you believe to be true here?
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I really wish I know, Raymond.
Speaker 4 (05:05):
It's interesting to hear that information because it was presented
as a Vatican initiative that the Chinese government agreed to.
Now the question is, was there a you know, back
channel communication before that was published which said, go ahead,
send it to us, will approve it. And what Bob
says is very troubling. The cnicization of the Church makes
China and its government the primary object of loyalty, and
(05:29):
then the Church is a servant of that government in
that country, which we never say, you know, we you know,
I'm God's servant first, and then the kings.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
It also turns the church and every Mass into a
propaganda tool for the Chinese communists. I mean they're inserting
Ji and Mau into the stories of the Gospel like
they walk onto the scene. I mean, this is crazy,
and everybody under eighteen is forbidden from going to Mass.
I don't see how the church can accept this at all, Bob,
(05:59):
I'll give you the last word.
Speaker 5 (06:01):
Yeah, I mean, look, Leo has been presented with a
very bad situation, so maybe you're right that what he's
trying to do here is keep this thing alive for
the time being. Pope Francis himself admitted that China there
were going to be Chinese Catholics who are going to
suffer under the new regime, but he he just was
willing to accept that because he has He and Cardinal
(06:23):
Pauline kept saying, you can't go on forever with this
divided church in the country. But I don't know that
this is a solution. It seems to me that the
citiization goes so far as to say that there shall
be no loyalties to entities outside of China, and so
the church that is in communion with Rome. And this
(06:45):
was the sticking point that Benedict the sixteenth always brought up.
It's a matter of ecclesiology that the church has got
to be the church, and the church has got to
be in union with the successor of Peter. It can't
be run entirely by the government. And you know, whatever
connections it allows to a place like Rome, that's just
a concession because the focus is internal to China.
Speaker 3 (07:06):
Ye, it's worries.
Speaker 1 (07:07):
We have to watch this deal and how it progresses.
I mean, it's a Faustian bargain for those poor people,
though under the boot of communism. Another story this week
we've been covering, the Vatican appears to a finally removed
artwork by disgrace Jesuit father Marco Rupnik from its official websites.
(07:30):
The use of Rupnik's artwork has persisted not only on
Vatican sites, but in Catholic churches and facilities around the world.
Not long ago, Vatican press officials had claimed the Rupnik
art should remain because we're all sinners. Bob, what do
you think drove this turn about?
Speaker 5 (07:48):
Well, you know, we can't tell because there hasn't been
any explanation coming out from the Vatican press office. But
it's not hard to imagine that the people there seems
to be a particular figure who was loyal to Rupnik,
a woman who is part of the Vatican Press Office,
and it seems like she was protecting the brand, so
(08:09):
to speak. She was keeping those images up on the website.
It's not hard to imagine that other forces now within
the Vatican Press Office know that the boss doesn't like this.
Even if he didn't, he didn't order it explicitly. You
just get the impression from Pope Leo that that's not him.
That Rupnik, for some reason, as a jesuit and then
(08:31):
an ex jesuit, continued to be protected by Pope Francis
or by somebody for some reason that seems to have disappeared. So,
whether this is a sea change or it's just a
kind of a recognition that, look, we're not going to
do that anymore. It's still a good thing.
Speaker 2 (08:45):
Father.
Speaker 1 (08:46):
Why did it take the death of one pope and
the election of another to do the right thing here?
And I mean this man is charged with horrible crimes.
Speaker 4 (08:57):
Yeah, No, the Roupnik case is going to be a
case study and the failure of the pontificate of Pope Francis,
and I think it was motivated by his personal appreciation
of Rupnik, without taking due consideration of the complaints of
Rupnik's victims. You know, Rupnik was found guilty of having
absolved someone with whom he had sexual relations. That's a
(09:17):
canonical violation of results in excommunication. And the only one
who can lift that is the Pope. Well, about two
weeks after this penalty was imposed, he was freed from it.
Speaker 3 (09:27):
It was lifted.
Speaker 4 (09:28):
There was no explanation, but it's clear that could only
be the Pope or the Pope authorizing a delegate to
go ahead and do it. Then Rupnik was investigated a
couple of times.
Speaker 3 (09:39):
The evidence was brought forward.
Speaker 4 (09:40):
The Jesuits decided we have to do something, so they
start an investigation. Rupnik would not cooperate with the investigation,
and as a member of a religious order, if the
superior says, show up for an interview, you got to
do it. He was thrown out of the Jesuits. Then
the Vatican said, well, we can't prosecute him because there's
a statute limitations. Even though the statute of limitations is
(10:03):
regularly waived in Vatican proceedings.
Speaker 3 (10:07):
Pope Francis was asked about it by.
Speaker 4 (10:09):
An interview, he said, well, you know, we always wave
it if it's sexual abuse of a minor, but with
adults is something different. Now, that standard, that standard just
made me want to fall back and get sick. Rupnik
was taking advantage of novice nuns, and he was claiming
that there was a spiritual purpose to sex abuse and
it helped him to be a good artist. Now you're
(10:31):
watching enough crime shows to know criminals know how to
lie and manipulate people very well. And that's what happened here.
Speaker 1 (10:39):
So and those who are pathological use their sin, use
their crime, and create relics of them, by the way,
like little mementos. That's what happened here. He abused these
poor sisters psychologically, physically, and then used the outpouring of
that sin in the art world. That's all over the
(11:01):
place in churches. I mean, I think it's profane art
and really should be removed.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
I'll give quick to both of you before I go
to Diane Montga.
Speaker 5 (11:09):
Bob mean, somebody, I don't remember who said this, but
somebody made the point that, look, Carivar.
Speaker 3 (11:15):
Joe was no saint.
Speaker 5 (11:16):
He was a great artist, but he was no saint.
But he never used his sinfulness to advance his art.
And then on top of this, and I think this
is the most pressing point of all in the church
that is trying to finally turn the page on this
abused crisis, that the victims are still alive. And then
(11:37):
every time they go into a place where those images
are up, you know they must be triggered, they must
be be traumatized in some fashion. And other people who've
been sexually abused. I mean here in Washington, d C.
Where I live, they've covered over the Rupnik mosaics in
the Basilica of the Immaculate Conception. The same with the
(11:58):
Knights of Columbus up in New So you know, if
a woman comes in who has been abused, she is
confronted and people know about this, they aren't immediately having
in their face images that were produced out of sacrilegious
activities that they're almost unprecedented in the history of the church.
Speaker 1 (12:18):
No, no, and the fact that their sexual abuse only
takes it to another level. For more on what took
place of the Vatican this week, we are joined by
Diane Montagna, Vatican journalist and an honorary Prayerful Posse member. Diane,
I want to start with the Rupnik case. He was tried,
he was excommunicated, and then he was restored, and later
(12:38):
the statute of limitations were lifted. Where does this stand.
Speaker 6 (12:42):
Now, Yes, well, I mean, Raymond, the latest that we've
heard from the Vatican is that, in a sense it's
very slow moving and installed. The last we heard from
the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith is that
they couldn't find the judges appropriate judges to take care
of this case. I think in part because there has
(13:02):
been so much media attention to this case where they
get concerned that perhaps the judges view might be biased
a bit from all of the reporting that there's been
in the media. But it has been slow walked for
quite some time now, though I expect. I mean, the
signs that we're seeing now in terms of even the
Rupnik art being taken down from the Vatican News site,
(13:25):
I think is a sign and is widely seen here
in Rome as a sign that the tide may be
shifting in regard to Rupnik.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
Did you have any other conversations about this this week?
Speaker 6 (13:36):
Yeah, so, I've talked to a couple of people. Of course, Adnicospontoni,
the Italian journalist wrote a great article explaining everything for
the Novo Bussola Daily Compass and when she pointed out
that it was Cardinal O'Malley that a year ago wrote
a letter to the Pope requesting that entered the Dicastri
(13:56):
for Secretariat for Communications, requesting this art taken down specifically
from the Vatican News site, but nothing was done. So,
I mean, I've talked to some people within the Vatican
who deal with in this realm and they say that
(14:16):
so one thing is that you know, no one in
the ordinary office of Vatican News knew anything about this happening.
Most of them found out from the media. Now, what
that suggests is that this was taken care of, certainly
at a high level, was it. And people say that
Paulo Ruffini, the Prefect for the Secretariat for Communications, had
(14:41):
to have been involved. And then another key figure that
would be Natasha Govicar. She's written books with Rupnik, she
has a good relationship with Rupnik, and she's a Slovenian
theologian and she's the current director of the Theological Pastoral
Department of the Secretariat for Communications, and this is a
position she's held since twenty sixteen. By and large, it's
(15:04):
interesting to know the Rupnik images appeared on to illustrate
either feast days or Saint's Days on the Vatican website,
and that was her department. She was a friend of Rupnik,
and so they continued, despite please even from the victims,
to be taken down.
Speaker 3 (15:23):
Outrageous, just outrageous.
Speaker 6 (15:25):
It thought even that there was this was a preemptive
mood move from the head of the Secretary for Communications,
seeing that maybe the tide is turning, or it was
there was a call from higher up saying it needs
to come down.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
Central to this Rupnik case, I mean you mentioned Cardinal
Tucci Fernandez, the head of the doc Trinal department at
the Vatican. He's the person charged with finding the judges
in that case. There was a report Diane, earlier this
week that the Pope had met with Fernandez and decided
to extend his leadership at the dicast of the Doctor Faith.
(16:01):
But there have been a lot of problems with that
initial report. Is there any credibility to this.
Speaker 6 (16:07):
Well, I think this really has to be treated as
a rumor at this point. Raymond. You know, there was
one report that came out. It was based on anonymous sources,
and certainly sometimes anonymous sources could be correct. But in
this case, one article out in Spanish media that it
perhaps the person who wrote it was thinking of the
(16:28):
temporary confirmation that Pope Leo has given to all of
the Dicastri heads. I just think that it's way too
early to assume that that report is correct.
Speaker 2 (16:40):
And for those joining us late in the game.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
Cardinal Fernandez was the ghost writer of a lot of
Pope Francis's works, including The Blessing for Gay Unions, La
Datto c The Climate and Cyclical Anything I'm missing, Well.
Speaker 6 (16:56):
There was the document on Apparitions Human Dignity. But I mean, certainly, Raymond,
the most you know, one thing that Pope Leo has
stressed practically every time that he's spoken from the beginning
of his pontificate is his particular desire for unity and communion,
and he's spoken explicitly about how he sees that unit.
(17:18):
He rightly sees that unity as rooted in Christ. The
closer we are to Christ, the more united we are
amongst ourselves, the further we get away from Him. That's,
you know, So that is certainly something he's made a priority.
So the idea. I think we should take the report
about Cardinal Fernandez with the grain of salt, because surely
the Pope knows what a controversial and even I hate
(17:42):
to say, scandalous figure Cardinal Fernandez is for some of
his writings from years ago.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
Diane, Pope Leo had a meeting this week that got
too little attention, really, because again it's a it's a
prism into where he is, where his mind is, how
he regards the church and priests within it. He met
with the priest of Rome and he told them, quote,
you are all precious in the eyes of God and
(18:08):
in the realization of His plan. I ask you this
with all my heart of a father and a pastor.
Let us all commit to be incredible and exemplary priests.
How did this message startle people in Rome? I mean,
it's very different from that of his predecessor.
Speaker 6 (18:25):
Oh, it went over very very well among the priest Raymond.
I mean I spoke to a few priests different backgrounds,
and they said, you know, when priest said that this
pope radiates an extraordinary kindness and serenity, and it's the opposite,
to be honest, of what they experienced years ago. They
(18:46):
said the climate was so warm. I think there were
three hundred parish priests and maybe five thousand clergy of Rome,
and so I think it's been seen as a real
triumph the Pope. Certainly he stressed spiritual life and the
importance of priests growing in their spiritual life. As you
pointed out, he thanked the priests for their service, for
(19:07):
their dedication to the Diocese of Roman to souls. So
the message was right on. It was extremely well received
and marks a very good turn for the morale among
the clergy.
Speaker 5 (19:19):
Here.
Speaker 1 (19:20):
I noticed that Archbishop Zanceta, who finally left Rome after
years of protection by Pope Francis, now he was set
to be deported to face a prison sentence in Argentina.
He was a charred found guilty of sexual malfeasance with seminarians,
(19:40):
and not just one or two. He's now facing the music.
Why was he in the Vatican for so long, Diane.
Speaker 6 (19:47):
Well, he was protected by Pope Francis, which I hate
to say. Pope Francis was his spiritual father, his confessor.
He allowed him to come back here during I think
it coincided with the investigation itself, and he gave him
a position in Apso, which is that takes care of
(20:08):
the apostolic patrimony of the Holy See. And then after
he after he served four months in prison, was then
told by the courts that he could be allowed to
serve the rest of his sentence in the monastery. For
health reasons, he was brought here to Rome. His time
in Jamni hospital is very much shrounded in mystery. And
(20:32):
just a month after Pope Leo has been elected, he's
on a plane back to Argentina.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
So yeah, it looks like Pop Leo's cleaning out the stables,
gently and quietly, but cleaning them out nonetheless, Let's hope
more of that continues. Diane Montana, thank you so much
for being here, and we will check in with you
as a day's unfold.
Speaker 6 (20:54):
Great to be here with you.
Speaker 2 (20:56):
Let's pick up on what Diane was telling us.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Posse zank Keetta was convicted of sexually abusing seminarians. As
I mentioned a moment ago, he's been in Rome since
November seeking medical treatment, which, as Diane said, there's a
lot of mystery surrounding that. Now he's reportedly back in Argentina.
He's going to serve a four year sentence at a monastery. Father,
(21:18):
why not send him to jail.
Speaker 4 (21:21):
Well, the fact of the matter is he was in jail.
He was there for about two months or so, and
then mysteriously the Argentine judicial authorities put him under house
arrest and he was living in a convent. And then
while he's living in a convent under house arrest, they
allow him to go to Rome allegedly for medical treatment. Well,
I defy you to tell me. There isn't a doctor
(21:42):
in Buenos Aires who could take care of him. But
for some reason, he was allowed to go there and
spend six months. Now he's back, he's going to ask
for have his sent and suspended.
Speaker 3 (21:51):
I read and.
Speaker 4 (21:52):
This is a man who lied to the pope. He
was originally caught because he used his cell phone to
record imral videos of himself and he gave it to
one of his media people in the diocese and said,
there's some photos here of a church and I'd like
to put them on the dasa's website. The man found
the video, which was disgusting, reported it to the nuncio
(22:15):
and authorities.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
It got to Rome. So what does zen Ketta do.
Speaker 4 (22:18):
He goes to Rome and tells about Well, my phone
was hacked, you know, the Anthony Wiener defense, you know,
I mean, it's just absolutely disgusting, and the Pope treated
him with kid gloves. There's a reason for that, said
to say, historically, this man was a spiritual direct when
Pope Francis was the archbishop of Buenos Airis and he
worked as an official in the bishop's conference. So Zanketta
(22:40):
was the first bishop named by Pope Francis. He was
protected when serious evidence was shown that he was living
in an immoral and perverse lifestyle. Then he's convicted and
he's given all these benefits. So no, it's a disgrace
the canonical with cib of being a crime in this
in Argentinian law, it's canonical to commit sex abuse against seminarians,
(23:02):
which is what he's convicted of. It was announced years
ago that there was a canonical process. We never heard
another word of it. Yeah, I call upon the Holy
See to tell us is there still a canonical process?
Was a terminating We never knew this man needs to
be removed from the priesthood. He manipulated his position as
a bishop to get seminarians to commit immoral acts with him.
(23:25):
He compelled them to the kids had no choice. This
is disgusting.
Speaker 1 (23:28):
Yeah, Bob, your thoughts on his quick exit to Argentina
with the arrival of Pope Leo. I mean we talked
about Pope Leo earlier telling the priests you have to
live your lives fully and be credible. Again, that's important.
Speaker 5 (23:43):
Yeah, you know, I was struck as I was looking
in the news reports about how he had apparently had
to have some kind of heart surgery, And I agree
with you, it's hard to believe that a wealthy and
pretty much developed country like Argentina doesn't have the capability
of doing heart surgery. But then what happened, and is
that he was supposed to go back sometime in April,
(24:05):
and he continued to stay.
Speaker 3 (24:07):
I mean, he'd been through.
Speaker 5 (24:09):
The process if there was an operation and when it
has come forth and actually confirm that. But he went
through whatever medical treatment and recovery took place, and then
he stayed in Rome, and then all this conversation started
about you know, is he going to go back to
the monasteries. He can wear an ankle bracelet, Is he
can to try to get the conviction or at least
(24:30):
the sentence community it or something, and he's still there
until the pope dies. Then when the new guy comes
in again. You know, like with the rupnik Art, it's
not hard to imagine that someone turned to him and said, look,
that American pope, he wants you to go back to
(24:50):
South America.
Speaker 1 (24:51):
Ah, well he got somebody got the message, and that's
a good thing. A relative to this, the USCCB issued
it's twenty twenty four report on sex abuse allegations against
Catholic clergy. Now this is restricted to July first, twenty
twenty three to June thirtieth, twenty twenty four. During that period,
(25:13):
the abuse scandal has cost dioceses nearly two hundred and
forty three million dollars. There were nine hundred and two
allegations of sexual abuse by clergy by a reported eight
hundred and fifty five victims. They say the number of
allegations have dropped sharply since twenty nineteen, when there were
four thousand.
Speaker 2 (25:33):
Five hundred accusations filed. Father Some of the.
Speaker 1 (25:36):
Reportage on this story seems to focus on the sharp
drop in allegations because there was some investigation of each
of these charges. But I mean nine hundred and plus
allegations that's still a pretty high number.
Speaker 4 (25:52):
Yes, it is, and we have to take into consideration
the allegations can date before the time period that we're
looking at. So, in other words, not all nine one hundred,
et cetera allegations for that calendar year that they're using. Nonetheless,
look at it. The sex abuse revelations came out in
two thousand and one.
Speaker 3 (26:11):
We started getting these.
Speaker 4 (26:12):
One of the archizes of Boston was compelled to reveal
what they knew. And now we're getting nine hundred more
cases and you know, eight hundred victims. You know, given
the possibility that there are some false accusations, that number
may be a little high. But the general understanding and
canoness have looked this. This is over time. Most of these
(26:33):
charges are merited. In other words, something happened, something was
done to somebody.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
This is a lot of cases.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Yeah, well we got to do something.
Speaker 1 (26:42):
When you dig into the data, and again the USCCB
is reporting this, they claim that seven percent of those
allegations were deemed credible, sixty two percent were unable to
be proven, and five percent were unsubstantiated twenty six per
our ongoing investigations. Father So, of course, due process should
(27:05):
and must be followed in all these cases. But why
does this issue continue to persist to such a degree, Bob,
after all of the attention and time spent on this
and money.
Speaker 5 (27:16):
Yeah, I wish that those numbers had been broken down
a little bit differently because there was another statistic in
that reporting that is very odd. It that's something like
over fifty percent of the priests were accused or now dead.
Speaker 3 (27:28):
So, you know, we.
Speaker 5 (27:31):
It's like a you know, a polluted stream. It's bad,
so you stop polluting it and it gets a little
bit purer and a little bit puer and a little
bit purer. But I agree with Father, these are large
numbers and that means unfortunately, we're not near the end
of this, and we need to get a grip on
this and fast. So, you know, the bishops seemed to
(27:52):
want to present this as if it's encouraging news, and
maybe it is, but I think that they need to
do a better job of then why it's encouraging if
it's true that only fifty percent of those are really
live priests today. Okay, so now we're down to four
hundred and fifty, which in fifty states is still a lot.
(28:13):
But the church has not only a difficult pr problem here,
which is not doing very well at it's also still
got a disciplinary problem that I hope our bishops finally
get a grip on.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
Well, you know, Bob, as our friend Cardinal George pel
used to say, you know, moral bankruptcy usually precedes financial bankruptcy,
and we've seen that in dioceses after Diocese Washington, d C.
Which we talked about on the show this week, New Orleans,
my own Diocese of New Orleans. All across the country.
You see these dioceses declaring bankruptcy because they paid hundreds
(28:47):
of millions of dollars over this scandal. And still there
doesn't seem to be an intentionality to either screen these
candidates or make sure that everybody's towing the line here.
It's an ongoing problem. Moving on to another story, big
one this week, the protests and riots in Los Angeles
that it resulted in ice the immigration enforcement raids in
(29:09):
that city last week. On Friday, June sixth, Archbishop Jose
Gomez of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles issued the following statement,
we all agree quote. We all agree that we don't
want undocumented immigrants who are known terrorists or violent criminals
in our communities, But there is no need for the
government to carry out enforcement actions in a way that
(29:30):
provokes fear and anxiety among ordinary, hard working immigrants and
their families. Other nations have a coherent immigration policy that
respects the natural rights of the people to emigrate in
search of a better life and also ensures control of
their borders. America should too. It's been almost forty years
(29:50):
since the last reform of our immigration laws. That's too long,
and it's time to do something about that. End quote father.
In that statement, Artificial Golmez called for restraint and calm
from everyone involved. Should it have made a stronger statement.
Do you think condemning the violence, the anarchy on the streets,
the violent attacks on law enforcement.
Speaker 4 (30:12):
Well, I think a subsequent statement would have to add
to it would have been very useful, because precisely, if
you know, they've been profane graffiti, they've been throwing objects,
they've been burning cars. I mean, this isn't a protest
against a police action in as much as it's kind
of like an action to delegitimize the whole government to
say we're going to create anarchy in the streets until
(30:33):
you stop exercising authority. So that's troubling. And the other
thing is why would ordinary immigrants meaning people here legally,
why would they be troubled when criminal aliens meaning because
that's the focus of the ICE action now illegal aliens
who are known to have committed crimes or accused of crimes,
why should they be afraid when they're rounded up? Typically
(30:56):
illegal alien criminals live in the community with other immigrants,
so they terrorized them.
Speaker 3 (31:01):
So that statement, unfortunately was.
Speaker 4 (31:04):
Not supported enough of law enforcement.
Speaker 3 (31:07):
And what's the context?
Speaker 2 (31:09):
How many?
Speaker 4 (31:09):
How many million people came in under the Biden ministry?
Twenty one million.
Speaker 3 (31:14):
That's what they said.
Speaker 1 (31:15):
That's what that's that's what at least the current administration
is reporting that twenty one million people entered the country.
Speaker 3 (31:20):
We exist.
Speaker 4 (31:20):
So another the context here is not, well, there are
a few people came over the border, why bother everyone
else just refuge. There's a massive load of people who
are causing problems and they were released onto the streets
by the Biden administration.
Speaker 1 (31:33):
And Bob we have on the books, I mean archificial
gummas mentioned the immigration reform. There are laws on the books.
You can't come illegally without permission or overstate your visa.
In the United States, that's the law of the land.
It's federal law. So I don't know what are we
just calling for open open borders should be the immigration
(31:53):
policy of the land, so everybody can come and go
as they please.
Speaker 5 (31:57):
Yeah, I thought this was a disappointing statement from the archbishop. Prey, generally,
I think is a good man. I think he did
issue another statement about other people, about people being calm
and not resorting to violence.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
I was glad that he'd do that.
Speaker 5 (32:11):
But look, you know, I frequently when this debate comes up,
it frustrates me that our bishops still talk about the
right to emigrant. There is no right to immigrant. You
know that you have the right to apply to enter
another country. You don't have a right to enter in
another country, and you do have a right under international
(32:32):
law if you are a refugee. Now this is a
different category. This means if you are in a country
where your life is in imminent danger. You know, say
there's a terrible regime and you're a protester and they're
trying to kill you and your family, Yes, you have
a right to asylum. I mean you're protecting a person's life.
But we have already an immigration system. My wife is
(32:55):
an immigrant. My wife was born in France. My wife
is an immigrant, and she gets furious. I'm actually the
commone in the family.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
It is in our family too that's enraged as well.
Speaker 5 (33:10):
They got in line and they back in those days,
you have to have a sponsoring family here who said
you would not go on the welfare roles, that they
would take care of you if you couldn't find work,
et cetera. You know, what about the rights of the
people who are not getting jobs right now, who find
it hard to get housing because it's more expensive because
there is a glut of illegals and all those other
(33:33):
you know, secondary problems in addition to the crime. But
there are those secondary problems that we need to protect
against and it's our government that has a responsibility to
prevent those problems from occurring.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Before I leave this very quickly, the newly appointed archbishop
or bishop brother of San Diego. He was appointed by
Pope Leo just weeks ago. He's now sent out a
statement and by all indications he as a you know,
Orthodox man, but he sent out a statement encouraging priests
to go down to the courthouse and join any immigrant
(34:09):
who's there for their hearings just to support them so
they'll be treated. Well, Well, some of these people might
be criminals. I mean, is everyone who came into the
country just entitled to protection by the Catholic clergy father
I'll start now, Yeah, I.
Speaker 4 (34:25):
Think it would be better if they get a list
of these people and what they're accused of. You know,
why is it that immigration is acting against them aside
from the fact they're here legally, Because right now they're
not rounding up every single person here legally, They're focusing
on the people who are threats to the community. Right,
it would be better to contact ICE and say, well,
you know, we're our priests are concerned. Would just inform
us who these people are and what they're accused of,
(34:46):
Because you know, if you've got a child molestor who's
been convicted in ex country gets in here and is
therefore liable to do the same thing, why should I
stand next to him in line just to show support.
Speaker 3 (34:58):
I don't know the guy.
Speaker 4 (34:59):
And by the the way, child wissons had no right
to be in this country illegally, so I find that
to be an unreflective comment on his part.
Speaker 1 (35:09):
Yeah, it's a it's a kind of you know, preferential
option for any immigrant. I wish they had this kind
of love for the Latin Mass, you know, where we
just stand with the supporters of the Latin Mass every Sunday.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
But if you're an immigrant, they're right there.
Speaker 1 (35:23):
I mean, the truth is, there was a there was
a guy who was throwing matoul cocktails at police officers.
He was arrested just last week, charged by the LA
District of the US Attorney there. He's charged with attacking
law enforcement. And then they find out he's an illegal
alien who's been deported once and was charged with a
(35:44):
grand theft auto charge back in Anaheim.
Speaker 2 (35:48):
I mean, these are not people we should be standing with.
Bob will give you the last word on this.
Speaker 5 (35:53):
Well and the loss California are really absurdive about these people.
I had a friend about twenty years ago. He he
noticed that there was a law in California that you
could get special benefits if you were not born in
the United States and you were a Spanish speaker. And
he was a Canadian who is as English and background
(36:13):
as you can possibly be, but he had learned Spanish
somewhere along the way. I think he lived on in
Nicaragua something. So he showed up at an office. He
was a journalist, so he decided to write a story
about this get this absurd idea? Yeah, well I was
born elsewhere Spanish. You know, it's you know, we're beginning
by cleaning out the difficulty persons that are here, but
(36:35):
there's much larger argument that's going to have to be
made about what are we going to be doing and
to wait for Congress to pass some kind of big, beautiful,
you know, immigration bill. I think is I've told the
bishops this. They've asked me to speak to them a
couple of times about immigration. I don't think that that's
going to happen just because of the way our two
parties are right now. But in the meantime, is as
(36:57):
unpleasant as it is sometimes to have to do these things,
I don't think that ICE is going into restaurants randomly
or going into home depots randomly. I think that they've
got the goods on the people that they're going after,
and for the time being, we shouldn't listen to these
people who are apologizing as if these are just ordinary
farm workers or you know McDonald's workers. They're not the
(37:19):
people who were going after right now should not be here.
Speaker 1 (37:23):
Well, okay, I want to end on a happy note
or a funny note at least. There was a moment
at the end of Pope Leo's Wednesday audience and an
Italian bishop came up to him wearing a bucket hat
and the Pope gently tells him, right here, take your
hat off so we can get a picture. He kind
of he does it very kind of subtly, but you
(37:44):
can see he's clearly telling him take the hat off
in obedience. The bishop does and then post for the photo.
I loved this moment, Potzi, because you have a pope
who not only understands decorum. You don't wear a Gilligan
hat in front of the Pope. But he's me savvy.
Bob will give you a crack at this.
Speaker 5 (38:02):
And then Father, Yeah, I mean, there's no question that
he has a certain sense of propriety and decorum. And
in this world where everything is up for grabs, the
fact of a figure like that who clearly is a
holy man, whatever decisions he made, he may make good
decisions or bad decisions. But in addition to being a
(38:23):
holy man. I think he's already impressed the world with
the dignity that he's brought back to the office of Pope.
Speaker 2 (38:30):
Father last word, yeah.
Speaker 3 (38:32):
I agree.
Speaker 4 (38:32):
And you know everybody who's tempted to do, you know,
put on funny hats at mass and make clown masses
in the light, better pay attention. You know, the Pope
is conscious and by the way in the world we
live in, a photograph is forever and it can be everywhere,
and it can you know, the Pope doesn't want bishops
showing up in Gilligan hats. As you say, those are
for the golf courts. I mean that goes back to
(38:54):
caddy shack, you know. I mean those kind of hats
are really old and I don't think.
Speaker 2 (38:59):
Well they're back Mogue father, all the kids there can
I get it. You're into the sun, you're outside for
a general audience. But when you come up to see
the boat taking it on off chance, we will leave
it there. Posse.
Speaker 1 (39:12):
Look, if you want more of the Arroyo Grande prayerful Posse,
please subscribe to the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube or
a Royal Grande podcast wherever you get yours on behalf
of Robert Royal father Gerald Murray.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
Until the posse rides again. Stay the course, follow the light.
I'm raiming a arroyo. We'll see you next time. Bye, guys.
Speaker 1 (39:32):
A Royal Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts
and is available on the iHeartRadio app or wherever you
get your podcasts
Host
Raymond Arroyo
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