May 30, 2025 • 52 mins
As tensions rise around the future of the Traditional Latin Mass, The Prayerful Posse dives into the latest crackdown in the Diocese of Charlotte. Bishop Michael Martin has moved all TLM celebrations to a remote chapel—displacing thousands of faithful parishioners. With Pope Leo XIV newly elected, the posse asks: Why now?
Raymond Arroyo is joined by Father Gerald Murray and Robert Royal to break it all down. They explore what the Latin Mass is, why it matters, and whether these restrictions reflect the Church’s actual teaching—or something else entirely.
The panel unpacks the fallout: from parishioner backlash to the bishop’s talking points, and whether this signals a wider push to suppress reverence, tradition, and beauty in worship. They argue that unity should not come at the cost of marginalizing the devout.
Also in this episode: what Pope Leo might do next, the Vatican’s silence on China’s persecuted Catholics, and how the Church risks forgetting its own heritage.
If you care about liturgy, liberty, and the life of the Church, this is a conversation you won’t want to miss.
🔔 Subscribe for more inspiring conversations: Arroyo Grande, available on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, iHeart, and everywhere you listen, watch & stream.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
The Bishop of Charlotte, North Carolina clamps down on the
traditional Latin Mass as the world waits to see what
Pope Leo the fourteenth will do on this front. We'll
get into that and much more on this edition of
The Prayerful Posse. Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The
(00:22):
Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and
its impact on the culture. Let's convene the posse. Father
Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing Dot,
organised some great columns up there that you should read
after you watch this. I'm Raymond to Arroyo. Go subscribe
to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify or
(00:45):
on YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show so you don't miss
an episode. You don't want to miss the Posse. Gents,
I have to discuss this, the move to stamp out
the Latin Mass by Pope Francis, the popular growth of
that mass and Bishop Michael Martin of Charlotte, North Carolina
here in the United States. This week he instituted a
(01:06):
clamp down on the traditional Latin Mass, even as it
has flourished and expanded in his diocese. The bishop is
restricting the old Mass, which was in only four parishes,
to a single parish chapel thirty five miles from the cathedral.
He claims he's doing this to promote the concord and
(01:27):
unity of the church. Bishop Martin, in a statement, says
these updated restrictions are meant to bring the Charlotte Diocese
in compliance with Pope Francis's tradisionis custotis that motoproprio he
signed a few years back. Father, Is that explanation valid,
especially now since Pope Francis is no longer with us.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, it's partially valid because Pope Francis did issue that
document which was meant to restrict the Latin Mass, but
it also was meant to provide for the past care
of those who are still desirous of going to that Mass.
So the decision that the Bishop of Charlotte made to
restrict it to one location in a chapel that's not
(02:12):
mandated by tradisions custodis traditisions custow. This certainly doesn't prohibit
having multiple places where the Mass can be offered, and
he also removed it from parish churches because, yes, tradisionis
custodas said, you can't have it in parish churches. But
as with everything in canon law, you can ask for
a dispensation, and the previous bishop had asked for a dispensation.
(02:35):
He decided not to. So there's a lot of his
own decision making here, which is not compelled to buy
triditionis custodis, but is rather his decision. And I think
it's quite clear he doesn't want the Latin Mass to
be generally available and has taken these steps for that reason.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, we're going to get to some of his other
musings and thoughts about liturgy, even the New Mass, the Novasorto,
and his vision of that. Get to that a bit later. Father,
before we go any further, describe quickly what the traditional
Latin Mass is, or the Latin Mass that we hear
so frequently discussed and that we'll be discussing.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure now, the Mass that most people know and even
non Catholics visit Catholic churches. It's done in the vernacular,
the priest faces toward the people, the readings are in English.
Everything essentially is in the vernacular and the prayers have
a more modern flavor. The traditional Latin Mass goes back
in essence, you know, to early centuries of the Church.
It was codified at the Council of Trent, and it
(03:33):
involves a you know, very regulated way of praying. The
priest faces towards the altar, the prayers are in Latin
and has a whole different sense of it's more, we
would say, in line with the way the Orthodox celebrate liturgy,
which is very specifically regulated. So yeah, it has a
more mystical spirit because you know, just the way prayers,
(03:55):
some prayers are said in low voice, is some normal voice.
So it's something worth exploring. People have never been to
a traditional Latin Mass, I think would be very pleasantly
surprised as to go to one.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah. No, it's filled with mystery. It's like another world
in some way. Yeah, Bob, how does cracking down further
on a valid form of the ancient Catholic liturgy? How
does that promote unity? In your mind?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean that's the puzzling thing about the argumentation,
if we want to call it that. I mean, he
does make arguments if her father alluded to some of those,
but how persuasive and how true they are I find puzzling.
I mean, look, this is not a question solely of numbers,
but from what we understand, there were about a thousand
(04:37):
people who would come on an average Sunday to the
various parishes or the various churches where the lat Mass
was being offered. There are half million Catholics in the
Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina, and not all of those
go to a Mass on a Sunday, let's say twenty percent.
So there are one hundred thousand who show up at mass.
(05:00):
One thousand are at a Latin Mass. Now is that
really a large enough number that it's disruptive to the
unity of the Diocese of Charlotte. Now I know very
little about it. He is the bishop there, he has
the right to run the diocese in certain respects. But
it just seems to me that if one thousand people
(05:21):
are setting off or destroying the unity or threatening the
unity of a diocese, well there's something to be investigated here.
There's some power in it that is not simply a
matter of people who are schismatic or critical of others.
There's some real attraction and power there that maybe shouldn't
be stamped out, but it doesn't have to be followed
(05:43):
in the way that those people are. If they're troublemakers,
you deal with trouble makers. But otherwise, maybe there's something
here that can help energize the church, which in many,
many parishes is pretty beige. As Bishop beharnkle, Yeah, Look.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I've spoken to a number of priests in that diocese. Know,
the seminary which Bishop Michael Jugas kind of expanded. He
had more than forty seminarians and they were teaching the
Tridentine right the Old Mass in the seminary, So this
was a focal point. It was a driving force of
vibrancy and enthusiasm throughout the diocese, and the two priests
(06:19):
I spoke to said there were many more than a
thousand people celebrating the Old Mass, and some of them
had been You know, it was originally nine parishes, it
went down to four. Now they're down to one. It's
not a parish, I misspoke. It's a chapel out in
the woods, like thirty five miles from the cathedral. Starting
on July eighth, no parish church's father in the diocese
(06:40):
will be permitted to host the celebration of the traditional
Latin Mass like it's something filthy and dirty. I mean,
Hooters isn't treated like this in this diocese. Bishop Martin
notes that his predecessor, Bishop Peter Jugas requested an extension
of the grace period for compliance with Pote Francis Modo
appropriate that stamped the old right. That extension expires this year.
(07:03):
He believes the diocese is not ready for the full
implementation of the traducioni's norms. On May twenty seventh, the
four priests of the Charlotte Dioceses who pastor TLM parishes,
they wrote to their bishop. They wrote to Bishop Martin
before he issued this promulgation asking him to reconsider. Quote.
Pope Benedict the sixteenth believed that both liturgical forms could
(07:27):
coexist peacefully within the church and even within the same parish.
Such has indeed been the case in our parishes. Since
its implementation. Our parishes have experienced harmony with all parishioners,
regardless the liturgy being spiritually nourished. The planet. Removal of
the Latin Mass from four parishes, affecting over one thousand parishioners,
(07:50):
is a matter of considerable consequence. To remove Catholics with
legitimate desires from their own parishes is we believe, a
deeply painful action. End quote Father, your thoughts on this
request of these four pastors. This seems to be the
experience of a lot of these parishioners, and certainly the
(08:12):
pastors and priests I've spoken to.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yes, I agree with those priests. The assumption that the
bishop is annunciating is similar to an assumption that Post
Francis initiated, which is that people who go to the
Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, are a cause of
disunity in the church. And I thought that presumption was
not verified in the case of Post Francis. I think
(08:37):
it's not verified in the case of the Diocese of Charlotte.
I did visit that diocese. Once I went to the seminary,
I met the priests in charge. I thought this was
an exemplary diocese. No, it's basically a hostility, which equates
anyone who likes the traditional Latin Mass, rejects the Second
Vatican Council, rejects the New Mass, and rejects the life
(08:58):
of the Church in general. Since the Second Vatican Council,
and I think that presumption is not true. There are
a small minority of people who have a truly seismatic
spirit who like the Latin Mass. They're mostly following Archbishop Lefevre.
But that's not the case of the Latin Mass people
(09:18):
who go to the Fraternity of Saint Peter and Institute
of Christ the King Parishes. I think it's just a mistake.
And you know, let's think, let's just step back for
a minute. We have a crisis of mass attendance the
Catholic Church of the United States. Why in the world
would you get angry with people who go to Mass
because they like to go to the Mass that their
parents went to or their grandparents, and say, you're causing disunion.
(09:41):
You're not causing disunity, you're upsetting clerics. And you know,
it seems that the bishop falls into that category who
don't have an appreciation for the traditional Latin Mass. So
all always say is, Bishop, listen to your pastors, step
back and say why don't we wait and see what
Pope Leo says, because referring this matter to him would
be the most prudent thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, yeah, I want to get to that in a moment,
and Bob Father raises an interesting point. If you're saying
that people that prefer the old Latin Mass, that there's
somehow harboring these deep hatreds of Vatican too or the
pope or division, how do we know people going to
the novs Ordo don't harbor similar thoughts, or you know,
maybe they think the Church should should allow the poor
(10:22):
to come live in there, and we shouldn't have masses anymore.
Maybe they want to have clown masses. How do I
know what they're thinking. I mean, it is a bit
of presumption and you know, wish casting to kind of
imagine that, you know, the hearts and souls of people
just because of the type of mass they go to.
I mean, goodness knows what the Byzantines or the Marinites
might be thinking or feeling.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, I have to say, in fairness, the bishop has
said in other places that there are people who abuse
the novs Ordo Mass, But it doesn't seem to be
very much strong action, dude to impress that part of
what's going on in our liturgies, And you're.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Exactly right, I mean, there is.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It was quite interesting thing that that right after Popo
Leo was elected, and after his inauguration he met with
the representatives of the Eastern Churches who were in Rome
for the jew for the week it was dedicated in
the Jubilee for the Eastern Churches, and he talked about
how important the Eastern churches are to the West because
(11:20):
they have a sense of spirituality and a sense of
mystery in their liturgies, and how much they can teach
those of us in the West. So just if you're
following along and Leo says he's Poplio says he's following
in the line of Francis, Well, if you're following along
with that, I think you would want to wait and
see how he might want to adjust things a little bit.
(11:42):
I go back to the point that, look, if anybody
is a troublemaker and a church, of course I have
to be dealt with. But it doesn't mean just because
you like the Latin Mass doesn't mean you're a troublemaker.
It means you like Latin Mass and maybe in fact
you were more docile to your bishop as a result
of your you know, you're rigid and clericalist impulses. So look,
it's a strange argument that's being made. It's odd that
(12:04):
it's being made at this moment, and I think we're
going to have to see if Leo is going to
take the bull by the horns here and try to
set up what I think it's a more pastoral and
merciful way of dealing with people who were attached to
the traditional Latins.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, those priests, Bob who wrote that letter begging the
bishop to avert course here and not limit the traditional
Latin Mass anymore. And what this means, essentially, for those
who may not be fully aware what this means is
they're expelling these people from a parish setting which was
set up by Pope Francis. And these priests said, are
(12:40):
people feel abused, they feel marginalized and persecuted. Here, Father,
we've covered Pope Francis's crackdown on the liturgy since it
was unleashed. What did you observe in the wake of
Benedict's Somorum pontificum that gave permission wide permission for any
priest to offer the traditional Latin Mass. Did you see
(13:02):
discord or division in the wake of that, as Pope
Francis and Bishop Martin I assume now maintain no.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I saw nothing of the sort. In fact, we have
the Archdioceis of New York. There is quite a bit
of interest in the Latin Mass, not only in New
York City but in some of the upper counties, certainly
in Westchester County. So no different priests, I know, because
of some more in Pontificum. They began celebrating the traditional
Latin masks in parises and it worked fine. In fact,
one priest's friend of mine, he would he inserted that
(13:34):
Mass into the middle of the Sunday morning schedule, and
people told them, well, this week I'm going to Latin Mass.
Next week I'll go back to the New Mass. It
was whatever was convenient, and no, it was peaceful and harmonious.
And we have to remember there were two groups that
Bennett was concerned about. The people who followed Archbishop Lefevre.
He tried to make a deal with them to restore
(13:55):
the society of pious the tenth. That deal never came about.
But the other group, where people remained completely canonically loyal
to the Roman See, to the Holy Father, but wanted
to go to the Latin Mass in good standing. And
Pope Benedict's attitude was, how can I turn a blind
eye or a cold shoulder to people who are faithful Catholics.
(14:18):
So now let's go back. There's a deeper problem here,
and I'd be interested in Bob's opinion on this, But
there's the discontinuity and continuity schools of thought. The Vatican
Two was meant to be a discontinuity with the past,
So any attachment to anything done before the Council of
view with suspicion by some Pope Benedict and John Paul
the second of the other idea, it's all the faith
(14:40):
is from Jesus down to our time, does a continuity
of expression. There are differences, there are improvements, there are mistakes,
but we don't say categorically once a council meets everything before,
it doesn't count. And that's unfortunately, I think what some
people are basing their thoughts on.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, Bob, as a way to get your opinion on
that thought, I'm going to play a little bit. This
is an interview I did with Pope Benedict just before
he was elected pope, and I'll let you hear what
he says here. But he talks about what was true
then is true. Now listen to this.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
I think it was important to be open to this
possibility and to demonstrates or also say, continuity of the church.
We are to not another church as five from the
dis I go, it's always the same church and was
in one time Hollypas churches, all of us Holophos church,
and it is not in another time an impossible thing.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Bob, your reaction to that and this idea that somehow
these people are out of the continuity and have no
place post Vatican two.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, Look, the phrase that Benedict invented that I think
encapsulates what he was after. I mean, other than the
pastoral concern for everybody on all sides of the so
called liturgy words, the phrase he invented was mutual enrichment.
That we've got this tremendous two thousand year cultural, liturgical, spiritual, artistic,
(16:10):
literary history in our church and we have to be
in continuity with the church that goes all the way
back to Jesus Christ. At Vatican two, you know, there
were two dynamics of Vatican two. There was the jornamento,
the updating, but there also was the russourceman going back
to the church fathers. So the idea that we're somehow
(16:32):
in a hermeneutic of rupture has Benedict called it that
we've broken with the past. And we hear this phrase
with some of the people in the QUERYA these days,
we're not going back. They say, well, we don't have
to go back, because the tradition is something that is
constantly moving forward. It's like being a human person and
you draw on your entire past life with your parents
(16:53):
and your schooling and your siblings and whatnot, and all
that enables you to go forward. Obviously there are conflicts
and tentions in there, but if you abandon your past,
then you've got amnesia. You've got, you know, some disconnect
with your own humanity.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well, Bob, you're a musician. I always think of this
in musical terms. It would be like saying, no more
opera and no more Bach. We never want to hear
that again. We don't want to hear that Messiah that
handled guy too old out. We only go from nineteen
seventy five on. That's all we're going to play in
this church. And here this is absurd. What burn down
the Vatican museums then, because all we could all we
(17:30):
need is the modern art and the big globe thing
in the in the garden' that's enough. No more of
that Pieta, no more of those Greek statues. You don't
need that, father.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We need the carpenters. We've only just begun. That's the
whole thing here, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
That would be the carpenters would be an upgrade to
some things I've heard in part that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We might have Ozzy Osbourne as that direct Yeah, it looks.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Like an American IDOL audition.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Go ahead, yeah, oh, but look what Bob says. It's
eminently reasonable. And the point here is the Pope Benedict
didn't say no one can go to the new Mass.
People said those people who want to go to the
old Mass, let them go, and the priests who want
to celebrate it, let them learn Latin, let them learn
the rubrics, let them celebrate the old Mass. Now, as
(18:19):
in all things, when when the people in charge try
to restrict a legitimate option, they create a reason which
is usually not the case, which is this option is
harmful to those who want to use it. Well, wait
a minute, was it harmful at the time the Second
Batting Council was called. Because that's the mess. They all
celebrated when they enter into Saint Peter's. It wasn't harmful
(18:39):
because guess what it produced the you know, people who
prayed and decided at the Council to make some changes.
But hey, the debate continues whether they made a good
decision in some of those post Conciliar changes. Let's just
keep the debate going.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, Bob, the obsession that this idea that the TLM community,
those who love the Latin Right, that they were fomenting
a movement to deny Vatican two's liturgical reforms, never mind
that some of those reforms were never promulgated by Vatican two.
That they insist, oh, this is the law. That's not
(19:13):
when you're reading the documents, they don't call for the
version of the Mass we have today in most parishes.
They don't. It doesn't look like what they called for.
We should recall that. Back in twenty twenty one, when
Pope Frances issued Tradisionis Custodis, beginning the de facto's suppression
of the Old Right, he often cited the results of
a Vatican survey of bishops that he said demanded called
(19:37):
for the restrictions he would issue in this document, Here's
the quote. This is from Tradisionis Custodis I instructed the
Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith to circulate a questionnaire
to the bishops regarding the implementation of the motopproprio somorum pontificum.
That was Pope Benedict's permission. The responses revealed Pope Francis says,
(19:57):
a situation that preoccupies and say, hadden me and persuades
me of the need to intervene, an opportunity offered by
Saint John Paul, and with even greater magnanimity by BENEDICTA
sixteenth intended to recover the unity of the ecclesial body
with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps,
(20:20):
reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure their church,
block her path and exposure to the peril of division.
End quote Bob. There were questions at the time about
the validity of those results of that survey, which were
never published. Your thoughts on the narrative. Though this is
a narrative, it is a characterization of a swath of
(20:44):
faithful Catholics that apparently continues.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Look, I've heard that there are stubborn progressives as there
are stubborn and rigid traditionalists as well. I mean, if
this is not something that is unique to one side
of the liturgical war or another, and it's simply I mean,
it's very clear to me that the only way we
can approach this at this moment is to do whatever
(21:10):
we can to foster people's closeness to Jesus Christ himself.
Some are going to find it through one way, some
are going to find it through another. I go back
and I say, if people are troublemakers, if they're true troublemakers,
if there was a parish for example, or you know,
a group of a cabal within the Diocese of Charlotte,
well certainly they should be told that they have to
(21:32):
respect the rights of other people who I go to
a novsorto Mass that has a lot of Latin in it,
and I find it quite adequate for most of the
time when I go to Mass on a Sunday. But
I think that you deal with problematic persons, you don't
just declare entire swaths of the church as somehow illegitimate
or a threat or you know they're they're attempting to
(21:55):
distort what Catholicism should be in our day. I think
we learn from one another, not with this mutual enrichment
was intended to be.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And Father Diane Montana our palot was on several weeks ago.
She reported at the time that that survey did not
say what the Vatican and Pope Francis insisted it said. There.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's correct because someone leaked some of the surveys and
it revealed, for instance, in Germany, the bishops were largely
content with what Pope Benedict had done. It had not
produced difficulties. Now yet, what kind of difficulties result in
disunity when people are going to a mass authorized by
the pope. The hostility is beyond the legal realm of
(22:40):
what's permitted and what's not permitted. It's a little bit
of thought control, which is basically saying, if you do
not find in the new Mass the same spiritual depth
you found in the old Mass, that you have a problem.
And my answer to that is, how can you be
so sure they have a problem. Maybe they have an insight,
maybe they have an into well, maybe they have a
(23:01):
good memory, because quite frankly, as as Bob pointed out,
the bishop and Charlotte did say that some New Order
masses novsorto masses, which are very irreverent because of different elements.
I can't tell you how often people complain about what
they experience at mass. I mean, you have some churches,
maybe not in the US, but in Europe where women
(23:22):
are giving the sermon. In other words, an unordained person
is being given this because the priest is sitting down
and saying this, this should be done. That's disunity because
he's violating not only the law, he's also questioning the
validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders because people who
aren't ordained are not supposed to preach it mass. And
there's a whole theology behind that. So if you want
(23:45):
to find disunity, take a survey of people who've been
to novsort of mass to find how many clown masses,
how many cowboy masses, how many football mass Actually of
mass once where a priest was kicking a soccer ball,
another one where they're throwing a rugby ball, and he said,
wait a minute, who's the problem, the person kneeling down
and saying dominateting on some deenius or the person the
(24:07):
priest who's throwing a soccer ball around or taking a
soccer ball.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Excuse me, now, I've been to masses in Europe, father,
where they literally had a DJ station and in the
middle of mass, the priest went over. He was working
the table working. I've never seen anything like that. I mean,
you can't make this stuff up. But when Bishop Martin
issued his letter on this implementation of tradisi Onis on
(24:31):
Friday May twenty third, he also issued to his priests
a set of talking points. Okay, these were responses to concerns,
is what they called them, regarding the implementation of his orders.
He apparently spent a lot of time anticipating the questions
that might arise. I want to go through some of
these responses, okay. One of the most curious was quote
(24:54):
implementation of Tradiitsey onist custodis will cause people to withhold
their giving to the church. He says this the Bishop Martin.
All people are free to give in whatever way that
they choose. However, Catholics in particular are called to give
in support of the Church, not out of charity, but
as a response to the call of the Holy Spirit
(25:15):
to be faithful and committed members to the one Body
of Christ if they choose to do that based upon
a transactional model. I give when I get what I want.
That is a perspective that is more modeled by our
culture than by the good news proclaimed by Jesus in
the scripture. Bob, your thoughts on that response, So that
the faithful are obligated to give money to the diocese
(25:39):
regardless of how their faith is treated, shut up and pay.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, it's a clever argument, and probably a clever by
half over clever by half, because look, it's simply human
nature that people tend to support things. It could be
missionary activities, and it could be educational activities that they
see making a difference in the world. I mean, I
think faithful Catholics have an obligation to discern where they
(26:08):
put their financial resources and simply to say, well, look,
you've got to support us because we're the diocese. Well,
then you've got to make some prudential judgments because certain
things may be worth supporting in your diocese. I think
in every diocese there are Catholic charities and other things
that are going on, you know, schools, etc. That really
deserve some support. But the more general question is how
(26:32):
are people otherwise to register their sense of what their
church is doing in a diocese. I mean, you can
go and try to talk with a bishop, and I
mean many of us have tried to do this, and
sometimes it's fruitful and sometimes it's not. But the bishop
has a responsibility on his own part not just to
be the bishop and to require people to support him,
(26:55):
but to actually provide them with opportunities that help advance
the faith that everyone is trying to advance in a
very difficult set of circumstances in the modern world. So look,
I think it's a clever idea to try to manage
is what they know is going to be a fierce reaction,
but I will be very very surprised if it works.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Well, Father, your thoughts on the tone of these responses,
I mean you've read them to the charge that he
isn't being sonodyl Therefore listening to people, the bishop says, quote,
listening and agreeing aren't the same thing, end quote. Couldn't
want to argue, father, that this is just the kind
of autocratic model that Pope Leo warned about in his
(27:36):
early homily. How is this appropriately pastoral?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, I find it interesting with talking points because what
it means is either they've done research or they're very
intuitive because they already know what people are going to say,
which means, of course that they've already heard this as
the pastor's objections already brought forward. So you know when
you criticize people being transactional, well, isn't it transactional to say,
by way, no need to send in your comments. We
(28:02):
already know what they are. Here are the answers. So
that's a number one mistake. Number two, you know, yes,
you're supposed to give money. That's in canon law, that's
in Catholic tradition. But you know, there's a reason why
when we run annual campaigns and dioceses that we have
brightly colored brochures and meetings with the bishop because it's
(28:25):
the difference between I'll give one dollar or I'll give
a hundred. You want to give them a reason to
give a hundred. And if you recognize that people are
appreciative of what the former bishop did but you no
longer want to do it, well you have to accept
the prices that will wait a minute, are the reasons
I'm varying from what the previous bishop did? Are they
(28:45):
going to sell to the people who have benefited from that.
They obviously aren't going to so I don't think he
wants to reconsider his position. He certainly didn't reconsider what
the pastor said. So certainly lay people is not, I think,
not going to listen to what is the terrible miss
And by the way, this kind of attitude the people
are going to pay anyway. Bishops in the sex afuse
(29:06):
case to not worry about how much money they might
have to pay out later, because they say, well, we'll
just go back to the well here. And that's when
you know, lay people thank god, they said, you know, bishop,
ex bishop, why if you're using our money to pay
settlements that we don't know about, we're not happy. We're
not going to provide those funds in the future.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah. No, people will pay to support their faith, the
spread of that faith and the Orthodoxy. But when you
deter from that, they're not going to pay. They simply
and worse, they won't show up any longer. Father, And
you know this is true. You see parishes, the attendants dwindling.
Why why are these Latin mask communities packed with young
(29:49):
families and children. I was just in one in another city,
the other day they literally had them coming out the steps.
They had families standing on the steps with the door open,
listening to the masks because they couldn't fit. That tells
you something. Something is clearly happening among the young. It's
a movement, and I think they're afraid of it. I
think some people are a little afraid of it. And
(30:09):
rather than engaging and talking to these people and figuring
out why are you coming, what drew you here, and
giving them more of that spreading the faith, for whatever reason,
they've decided we're going to close the doors, shut this down,
and you all get out of here. That's the wrong approach.
That's a fast pass to orthodoxy, and that's where I
think a lot of these people are going to end up. Sadly, Bob,
(30:30):
what do you make of the timing here? A new
pope has just been elected and inaugurated. Is this really
a priority for any bishop at this moment to stamp
out a valid part of the Mass or a version
of the Mass?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Well, many people notice that, in classic public relations fashion,
that this announcement was made late on the Friday before
mo real day weekend, which meant that, you know, the
public reaction it's a holiday weekend and you know, people
are off doing other things. Yeah, us alone tells you
that there was some serious calculation of how to present
(31:06):
this in public and to try.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
To minimize what the right was going to be.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
But I say, again, look, we've seen already with the
different way that Pope Leo handles things that it simply
would have been I think respectful. And I mean, unless
we find out that he consulted with the Vatican and
talked with the Pope Leo and he said yeah, I
go right right ahead with this, I think we need
to wait. We're very early still in this papacy. He's
(31:33):
onto many more immediate pressing questions like abuse and the
financial crisis and the Vatican, and he's been meeting with
you know people. We see Cardinal O'Malley has been there,
some of the people on the financial side, so we
know that he hasn't yet turned his mind to this
sort of liturgical thing. But we see that his liturgical
practice is much more traditional than we had previously under
(31:58):
Pope Francis. So I have to think that unless he
got the green lights somehow, And it strikes me that
kind of using this pr tactic may indicate that he didn't,
but I don't know. Yeah, I still think that it
would have been prudent, It would have been respectful to
It might have even been important if he had spoken
with the Pope to say I've gotten approval to do this.
(32:20):
We have heard that, and it makes all of this
seem very, very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Father. The Catechism says that the Eucharist is the sum
and summary of our faith. Our way of thinking is
attuned to the Eucharist. So people want to be more reverent,
more solemn. Why is that something to be stamped out
or viewed with suspicion.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, Pot Francis was in that school of thought, and
I have to say, as you know, analyzing based on
objective statements and things that were known in the public.
He was very much a product of the sixties mentality,
which was thank god, we finally got rid of this
Latin mass. You know, there's another document if you want
to talk about it, where the bishop talk says, you
(33:04):
know that nobody knows Latin, so why are we having
mass and Latin?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Wait a minute, that's ridiculous. Lots of people know Latin.
And by the way, even if you don't know Latin.
It's like if you don't know Italian, I can't go
to the opera. And of course you appreciate the beauty
for crying out loud. Saint Augustin wrote all his works
in Latin. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Latin, we scholars, you know,
use that as the basis of what they do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No, we have this kind of back to the rupture
an analogy that you know what the effort of Vatigan
two was to say, no more of the past. Everything
starts here. The new order of ages, you know, which
is on the dollar bill. I mean, this is American Republic.
Was something new. Vatican two was in continuity with all
(33:49):
the other councils because it was doing the same thing.
The doctor and the faith was being taught. So yeah,
we don't need.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
It.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Bothers me as a pastor of souls, that anybody would
be shown the door after they've been attending Mass in
a beautiful way and never displaying any hostility to the
doctrine of the faith, of the unity of the Church.
That I can perceive if there was a rebellion of
people rejecting the authority of the Holy see in the
dyes of Charlotte. I think he would have heard about it.
I don't think it ever happened.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
No, no, Well, the faithful who loved the Old Mass
are also encouraged by Bishop Martin and I love this bit, Bob,
to engage in some acts of penance and charity for
the healing of the church. This is like saying, as
I beat you and throw you out of the house,
pray for my intentions and consider how bad you've been.
He also advises them to stop listening to podcasts and
(34:40):
to have a media blackout, that they should just state
of their own thoughts. I mean, this is somebody said
mind control. Who said it? I think it was your
father that you know, this is a mind This is
really mind control, Bob, Yeah, thought control.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
And I think it's unfortunate that he's using spiritual categories
for this, as almost to say that you're bordering on
something like sinfulness or sism or you know whatever, the disunity, whatever,
the principle is here, and that in fact what you
need to do is look into your soul. Well, I mean,
we all need to look into our souls on a
(35:15):
daily basis for a variety of things.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
But I'm willing to bet the.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Desire to attend the Latin Mass is pretty far down
on the list of sins that most people are likely
to commit. And if you're up high enough, I think
we're all going to hear about it. You're right, I
mean there's going to be an open clash with some
group or other and in the local pastor, we didn't
hear about any such thing.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
No, no, Father, will this situation, the escalation of this
blackout on the traditional Latin Mass? Do you think this
will provoke Pope Leo to act? Should he abrogate Pope
Francis's restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass? Well?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Absolutely, I think yeah, traditionals Coustol this should be with
on as a document and go back to what Benedict
did because quite frankly, the pastoral good of the church
was being promoted and there was no manifest disunity being
experienced by the Catholic Church in any country that I
(36:16):
know of. If the bishops of Germany were happy with
Benedict because they had a lot of objections to what
he did, I think we can re secure things were okay,
and just on a human level. You mentioned the number
of Catholics in the dice is how many go to
Mass on Sunday? You can't find room for a couple
of thousand people to attend Mass in a beautiful form.
(36:36):
Of course you can. This is unfortunately, a will to
enforce this notion that any competition to the New Mass
is going to hurt the church. And as you know,
I'm a free market. Economic competition spurs excellence, you know.
I mean, why do we have multiple podcasts out there
(36:58):
because people say, well, I like, but guess what, why
is better?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Now?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
I hope they say that the Royal Grande is better,
because it is. But the point of the matter is,
let a thousand flowers bloom. Yeah, the Mass be said.
And by the way, you want to talk about vocations
of the priesthood, so many of them come out of
the either Latin mass community or the knowledge that well,
you know, as need is, maybe I can say the
old Mass and the New Mass. That certainly was the
(37:24):
case in the Benedict. Only good things happen when freedom
of choice is given in this matter, because this is
choosing a spiritual benefit that was proven over the course
of the centuries.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, and Bob, we should remember the late Pond. If
Pope Francis had no qualms whatsoever really ending a signature
piece of legislation by his immediate predecessor, by Pope Benedict.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, I have to say I'm still absolutely shocked by
the way that that came about. And it came about
not only at like an abstract level where you can't
celebrate a traditional Latin Mass in a parish within the diocese.
I mean we even saw things like can you announce
in a parish bulletin when Latin masses are going to
(38:11):
be held or you know, wherever the Latin Mass is
going to be held. I mean there's really this kind
of minute attempt to impose I don't know if we
want to call it an ideology, but there's some sense
of something that has to be preserved and if it
isn't carefully somehow fenced off from criticism and the dynamics
(38:31):
that other people have, it's fragile. I mean, it almost
is a confession that something is fragile, that they're worried
is about to be destroyed. So look this, I don't
think that this question is going to go away, because
I think it raises again. Yet the things that we kept,
we've been talking about for sixty plus years with Vatican two,
(38:52):
that the Church has not yet found a balance between
the Church prior to the Council and the post conciliary Church.
There can be this fruitful coexistence with one another.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, Benedict. I think Benedict tried, Bob. I think he
found it. I just think subsequently this narrative was born,
and we'll get to that in a moment that I
think justified the ending of the balance and the common
sense balance with history as well as the the you know,
with looking with eyes to the future. We should also
(39:24):
say a draft letter came out from Bishop Martin that
was leaked to a website and it was a host
of liturgical prohibitions. Now it calls for it. You reference
this earlier Father, the striking of all Latin even from
the New Mass, which I don't think he can actually do.
(39:44):
I think that's part of Vatican two and the reform.
He condemns the praying of the Saint Michael's prayer at
the end of Mass. He wants to forbid kneeling to
receive communion. Father, How is any of that in keeping
with the reforms of Vatican two? Is it? No?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Look, it's not. If he objects to Latin being used
in the Novis Ordo, then the first thing has to
do is send a letter to Pope Leo, because he
just celebrated his inaugural Mass, which was both in Italian
and Latin. Latin is used all over the Church as
a matter of course, because it's not prohibited. Latin was
never prohibited. There's no prohibition of celebrating the New Mass
(40:23):
in Latin. So to celebrate the New Mass in English
with parts in Latin, it's perfectly legal and it's good.
Now he makes points that people don't know Latin, therefore
it shouldn't be used. That's crazy. Forgive me, you know,
Bishop of saying using that harsh word, but it doesn't
make any sense.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
You know, we should end the carry speaks Greek father.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, we have the currie alas on the Greek. You know,
have the reproaches for good Friday. No look to say
that the health of a people depends on forgetting everything
that led up to the present version of the Mass,
that's just a ridiculs this way of thinking. It's nonsensical
in order to as a priest. You know, when I
(41:05):
was studying in the seminary, how the rubrics when I
was supposed to do. The rubrics of the New mass
are a modification of the previous rubrics. So in any
scientific study, as people know, if you want to know
the origin and nature and purpose of something, you find
it's antecedents and its precedents, and that's what we do.
So you know, I feel sorry for people in that
(41:27):
diosis if they do, in fact try to abolish singing
a kyrie or a sanctus or an anyo stay in
Latin because somehow this is harmful. That's not that doesn't
make sense.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
The bigger problem here, father, is it's not even in
keeping with the general instruction of the Roman missile. It
demands certain things. The Latin is mentioned there, the people
of the option to kneel or stand. That's really up
to the people receiving community anyway, Bob. It's being reported
that Bishop Martin will not release that letter of those
you know, prohibitions on practices even in the New Mask,
(42:03):
mostly due to the blowback it's being reported from his clergy,
which is all the more reason why the sheep should
keep their ear to the ground and keep raising their voices.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
I think, yeah, I read that draft letter and I
have to say, I mean, it takes your breath away
that there can't be alter rails. If you have them,
they need to be pulled out. There can't be predieu,
there can't be objects on the altar that block the
view of the sacred elements, the bread and wine. I mean,
(42:39):
it's like a progressive wish list, you know, just one
thing after another, and the thing that is quite sad
from my point of view. And you know, I know
other people may look at this differently. Yes, in a way,
Christianity is about simplicity and you know, the poor and
marginalized and whatnot, but it's not about dumbing down or
(43:03):
or bringing everything down to the kind of most passive
element in our churches is if we can't have anything elevated,
we can't have any music, we can't have any special language.
I'm always surprised when I'm at Mass and we're using
Latin that a lot of the people who never have
(43:23):
never studied Latin know how to say on Usday. They
know they our Father yea domain on some dignis. They've
heard it enough that they can do it and they
kind of know what it means actually, and we know
that the Vatican Document on the Liturgy actually asked that
we lift people up, bring them up to understanding. You
bring them up to be able to understand chant and
(43:43):
appreciate different forms of music, and also to have contemporary forms,
not to just move everything down to the kind of
most pedestrian street level. When we need to lift up
our hearts and our spirits to God.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Well, people should read the Vatican Council documents Vatican two
consul Documents on the Liturgy. It calls for the preservation
of the Latin, It calls for polyphony and chant in
the mass. Many places you don't have any of that.
So if we want to talk about continuity with the Council,
if that's the new bar for everything, well you've got
(44:19):
to then read the document and figure it out. But
it really my heart bleeds for the people in those
parishes in North Carolina, in Charlotte, as well as other
places that have endured this over the last few years.
It's not only there. This is just the most flagrant
and recent example. The Anglican Communion. I want to switch
gears here. They have not had an Archbishop of Canterbury
(44:40):
since November of twenty twenty four. Father the Crown Nominations Committee.
That's the group that elects the next head of the
Anglican Communion. They are in place now, everybody's been selected
and they're about to elect a new Archbishop of Canterbury.
What is the sluggish process tell you about the vitality
(45:02):
of that communion? And it's being reported they could have
their first female Archbishop of Canterbury.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Well, you know, the reality is the King of England
appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury and that is not what
the Catholic Church is doing and approves of, but that's
what the Anglican Communion does. So it's really up to
the King how long he wants things to go or
how quick he wants them to go. The sad thing,
(45:30):
of course, is that you know, in Christian understanding, the
shepherd is supposed to stand over the sheep and lead
them in salvation. So the shepherd is not supposed to
be sort of like an icon of the whole community
and what the community thinks is important, supposed to be
a represent of Jesus and what he thinks important. So
(45:51):
hopefully they'll like someone who is a serious Christian in
the sense of believing in the Bible, the doctrine that's
communicated by Christ who his apostles. But you know, as
a Catholic priest, I lament, you know the extraneous factors
such as, well, we have to have a woman bishop,
therefore we're going to get one. Well we don't accept
women bishop, so lead that aside. But what about the
(46:15):
we need to dose someone who's a really good shepherd
to lead the church. I hope that's what they do.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah, well, Bob. It also an Anglican friend of mine,
a cleric, reached out to me during the conclave and said,
it's amazing the world is paying all this attention to
the election of a pope. We haven't had an archbishop
of Canterbury for months. Nobody's paying any attention at all.
They don't even report on it. I mean it is
kind of stunning.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Yeah, and it's sad. Look for all the differences in
the conflicts we've had with the Anglicans over the years,
and they've certainly killed enough Catholic priests you back at
the founding.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Of their own church.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
It's quite sad because the Anglican tradition, and we're all.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
In native English speakers.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I really think that the Anglican Ordinaria, which was another
gift that we got from Poe Benedict, is one of
the beautiful additions to the liturgies of.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
The Western Church.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
And when I go to some of those masses, it
really strikes me that there's there's something beautiful about having
an English language mass. It has a tradition going back
to Shakespeare and even earlier. The oddness about their inability
to select somebody, I think has Father put his kind
of put his finger on it has partly to do
(47:29):
with this political considerations that you know, they exist in
our church as well, but not quite in the same
way as they seem to exist in the Anglican Church.
And on top of it, their previous Archbishop of Canterbury
had to resign because he mishandled some sexual abuse cases.
And I think that that maybe have been a trauma
(47:49):
that has made them think long and hard about who
is final question.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Last Sunday, the Pope publicly prayed for Chinese Catholics at
the Vatican, and he said that in the churches and
shrines in China and throughout the world, prayers have been
raised to God as a sign of the solicitude and
affection for Chinese Catholics and their communion within the Universal Church.
(48:13):
Pau Benedict instituted this feast a Father. But with that
twenty eighteen Vatican China Deal still in play, what do
you think was meant by this? Why do you think
the Pope Leo underscored it?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Well, it was the feace of our Lady at Shan,
which is the Chinese appellation of our Blessed Virgin Mother. Yeah,
he has solicitude for the Chinese Catholics, There's no doubt,
because he did bring it up. But in my opinion,
he needs then to look at the secret Chinese agreement,
and he needs to look at the appointment of bishops
(48:47):
who are unworthy by the Communist party to run dioceses
in that country. And he needs to look quite frankly
at this the overall persecution of the Catholic Church in China.
I mean again, we mentioned Jimmy Lai frequently in other venues.
Jimmy Lai is a Catholic convert who is in prison
on trumped up charges in Hong Kong, and not once
(49:09):
has the Holy See ever mentioned his name in dealing,
you know, in proclaiming the need for human rights throughout
the world, and that was a glaring omission and last pontificate.
It would be nice if we heard that post France
of poe Leo had sent a letter to Jimmy Lai
and to others who were imprisoned. It means it's up
to him to decide the modalities. By just saying, your
(49:31):
Holy Father, speaking as someone who's followed this story and
we all have, why is it that political prisoners in
other countries get the attention of the Holy See, but
not a Chinese Catholic who's so faithful.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Well, Bob, last word, and you've written a fantastic book
that is an entire chapter on this persecuted, persecuted and
martyr church in China.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, thank you, Raymond.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
I appreciate your mentioning that. Look, he Poplio was the
head of the Congregation for bishops. He must know very well.
You know who the bishops are there where they stand.
We know from work by our friend Nina Shay and others.
It's something like ten bishops have just disappeared, either either
in prison or they're dead, and they're just gone. We
(50:13):
don't know where they are. So I agree with Father. Look,
the situation is known. We have pretty good data on
what's happened to people like Jimmy Lai. Even Cardinals Zen
at one point was being threatened in Hong Kong. We
have a pretty good idea of what's happening there. It
would take some very very delicate negotiations, I think to
(50:37):
withdraw the Church from that agreement. It might bring some
further harm to Catholics there, But I think we have now.
We can see clearly we've made a deal with the devil.
And you know what happens when you make a deal
with the devil, It never turns out well.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Well, and we know Pope Leo is one of the
only popes in recent memory who actually has visited China
when he was head of the Augustinian Order, talked about
going and visiting Augustinian homes there and meeting with clergy.
So he probably has a different perspective here than any
of his predecessors. Let's hope, you know, grace and knowledge
(51:14):
prevails upon him to involve himself in the situation of
this poor community and much beleaguered Catholic faithful posse. We
will leave it there, and if you want more of
the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse and who doesn't Subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube, Arroyo Grande Podcast wherever
(51:34):
you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Go wherever you get it,
and sign up on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald
Murray till the Posse rides again. Stay in the light.
I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time by now.
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Because percasts Spooks consists focused perkastanis
The Bishop of Charlotte, North Carolina clamps down on the
traditional Latin Mass as the world waits to see what
Pope Leo the fourteenth will do on this front. We'll
get into that and much more on this edition of
The Prayerful Posse. Welcome to this Arroyo Grande series, The
(00:22):
Prayerful Posse, where we dive into matters of faith and
its impact on the culture. Let's convene the posse. Father
Gerald Murray, Canon lawyer of the Archdiocese of New York,
and Robert Royal, editor in chief of The Catholic Thing Dot,
organised some great columns up there that you should read
after you watch this. I'm Raymond to Arroyo. Go subscribe
to the Arroyo Grande podcast on iHeart Apple, Spotify or
(00:45):
on YouTube at Arroyo Grande Show so you don't miss
an episode. You don't want to miss the Posse. Gents,
I have to discuss this, the move to stamp out
the Latin Mass by Pope Francis, the popular growth of
that mass and Bishop Michael Martin of Charlotte, North Carolina
here in the United States. This week he instituted a
(01:06):
clamp down on the traditional Latin Mass, even as it
has flourished and expanded in his diocese. The bishop is
restricting the old Mass, which was in only four parishes,
to a single parish chapel thirty five miles from the cathedral.
He claims he's doing this to promote the concord and
(01:27):
unity of the church. Bishop Martin, in a statement, says
these updated restrictions are meant to bring the Charlotte Diocese
in compliance with Pope Francis's tradisionis custotis that motoproprio he
signed a few years back. Father, Is that explanation valid,
especially now since Pope Francis is no longer with us.
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Well, it's partially valid because Pope Francis did issue that
document which was meant to restrict the Latin Mass, but
it also was meant to provide for the past care
of those who are still desirous of going to that Mass.
So the decision that the Bishop of Charlotte made to
restrict it to one location in a chapel that's not
(02:12):
mandated by tradisions custodis traditisions custow. This certainly doesn't prohibit
having multiple places where the Mass can be offered, and
he also removed it from parish churches because, yes, tradisionis
custodas said, you can't have it in parish churches. But
as with everything in canon law, you can ask for
a dispensation, and the previous bishop had asked for a dispensation.
(02:35):
He decided not to. So there's a lot of his
own decision making here, which is not compelled to buy
triditionis custodis, but is rather his decision. And I think
it's quite clear he doesn't want the Latin Mass to
be generally available and has taken these steps for that reason.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
Yeah, we're going to get to some of his other
musings and thoughts about liturgy, even the New Mass, the Novasorto,
and his vision of that. Get to that a bit later. Father,
before we go any further, describe quickly what the traditional
Latin Mass is, or the Latin Mass that we hear
so frequently discussed and that we'll be discussing.
Speaker 2 (03:11):
Sure now, the Mass that most people know and even
non Catholics visit Catholic churches. It's done in the vernacular,
the priest faces toward the people, the readings are in English.
Everything essentially is in the vernacular and the prayers have
a more modern flavor. The traditional Latin Mass goes back
in essence, you know, to early centuries of the Church.
It was codified at the Council of Trent, and it
(03:33):
involves a you know, very regulated way of praying. The
priest faces towards the altar, the prayers are in Latin
and has a whole different sense of it's more, we
would say, in line with the way the Orthodox celebrate liturgy,
which is very specifically regulated. So yeah, it has a
more mystical spirit because you know, just the way prayers,
(03:55):
some prayers are said in low voice, is some normal voice.
So it's something worth exploring. People have never been to
a traditional Latin Mass, I think would be very pleasantly
surprised as to go to one.
Speaker 1 (04:05):
Yeah. No, it's filled with mystery. It's like another world
in some way. Yeah, Bob, how does cracking down further
on a valid form of the ancient Catholic liturgy? How
does that promote unity? In your mind?
Speaker 3 (04:16):
Yeah, I mean that's the puzzling thing about the argumentation,
if we want to call it that. I mean, he
does make arguments if her father alluded to some of those,
but how persuasive and how true they are I find puzzling.
I mean, look, this is not a question solely of numbers,
but from what we understand, there were about a thousand
(04:37):
people who would come on an average Sunday to the
various parishes or the various churches where the lat Mass
was being offered. There are half million Catholics in the
Diocese of Charlotte, North Carolina, and not all of those
go to a Mass on a Sunday, let's say twenty percent.
So there are one hundred thousand who show up at mass.
(05:00):
One thousand are at a Latin Mass. Now is that
really a large enough number that it's disruptive to the
unity of the Diocese of Charlotte. Now I know very
little about it. He is the bishop there, he has
the right to run the diocese in certain respects. But
it just seems to me that if one thousand people
(05:21):
are setting off or destroying the unity or threatening the
unity of a diocese, well there's something to be investigated here.
There's some power in it that is not simply a
matter of people who are schismatic or critical of others.
There's some real attraction and power there that maybe shouldn't
be stamped out, but it doesn't have to be followed
(05:43):
in the way that those people are. If they're troublemakers,
you deal with trouble makers. But otherwise, maybe there's something
here that can help energize the church, which in many,
many parishes is pretty beige. As Bishop beharnkle, Yeah, Look.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
I've spoken to a number of priests in that diocese. Know,
the seminary which Bishop Michael Jugas kind of expanded. He
had more than forty seminarians and they were teaching the
Tridentine right the Old Mass in the seminary, So this
was a focal point. It was a driving force of
vibrancy and enthusiasm throughout the diocese, and the two priests
(06:19):
I spoke to said there were many more than a
thousand people celebrating the Old Mass, and some of them
had been You know, it was originally nine parishes, it
went down to four. Now they're down to one. It's
not a parish, I misspoke. It's a chapel out in
the woods, like thirty five miles from the cathedral. Starting
on July eighth, no parish church's father in the diocese
(06:40):
will be permitted to host the celebration of the traditional
Latin Mass like it's something filthy and dirty. I mean,
Hooters isn't treated like this in this diocese. Bishop Martin
notes that his predecessor, Bishop Peter Jugas requested an extension
of the grace period for compliance with Pote Francis Modo
appropriate that stamped the old right. That extension expires this year.
(07:03):
He believes the diocese is not ready for the full
implementation of the traducioni's norms. On May twenty seventh, the
four priests of the Charlotte Dioceses who pastor TLM parishes,
they wrote to their bishop. They wrote to Bishop Martin
before he issued this promulgation asking him to reconsider. Quote.
Pope Benedict the sixteenth believed that both liturgical forms could
(07:27):
coexist peacefully within the church and even within the same parish.
Such has indeed been the case in our parishes. Since
its implementation. Our parishes have experienced harmony with all parishioners,
regardless the liturgy being spiritually nourished. The planet. Removal of
the Latin Mass from four parishes, affecting over one thousand parishioners,
(07:50):
is a matter of considerable consequence. To remove Catholics with
legitimate desires from their own parishes is we believe, a
deeply painful action. End quote Father, your thoughts on this
request of these four pastors. This seems to be the
experience of a lot of these parishioners, and certainly the
(08:12):
pastors and priests I've spoken to.
Speaker 2 (08:15):
Yes, I agree with those priests. The assumption that the
bishop is annunciating is similar to an assumption that Post
Francis initiated, which is that people who go to the
Latin Mass, the traditional Latin Mass, are a cause of
disunity in the church. And I thought that presumption was
not verified in the case of Post Francis. I think
(08:37):
it's not verified in the case of the Diocese of Charlotte.
I did visit that diocese. Once I went to the seminary,
I met the priests in charge. I thought this was
an exemplary diocese. No, it's basically a hostility, which equates
anyone who likes the traditional Latin Mass, rejects the Second
Vatican Council, rejects the New Mass, and rejects the life
(08:58):
of the Church in general. Since the Second Vatican Council,
and I think that presumption is not true. There are
a small minority of people who have a truly seismatic
spirit who like the Latin Mass. They're mostly following Archbishop Lefevre.
But that's not the case of the Latin Mass people
(09:18):
who go to the Fraternity of Saint Peter and Institute
of Christ the King Parishes. I think it's just a mistake.
And you know, let's think, let's just step back for
a minute. We have a crisis of mass attendance the
Catholic Church of the United States. Why in the world
would you get angry with people who go to Mass
because they like to go to the Mass that their
parents went to or their grandparents, and say, you're causing disunion.
(09:41):
You're not causing disunity, you're upsetting clerics. And you know,
it seems that the bishop falls into that category who
don't have an appreciation for the traditional Latin Mass. So
all always say is, Bishop, listen to your pastors, step
back and say why don't we wait and see what
Pope Leo says, because referring this matter to him would
be the most prudent thing in the world.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Yeah, yeah, I want to get to that in a moment,
and Bob Father raises an interesting point. If you're saying
that people that prefer the old Latin Mass, that there's
somehow harboring these deep hatreds of Vatican too or the
pope or division, how do we know people going to
the novs Ordo don't harbor similar thoughts, or you know,
maybe they think the Church should should allow the poor
(10:22):
to come live in there, and we shouldn't have masses anymore.
Maybe they want to have clown masses. How do I
know what they're thinking. I mean, it is a bit
of presumption and you know, wish casting to kind of
imagine that, you know, the hearts and souls of people
just because of the type of mass they go to.
I mean, goodness knows what the Byzantines or the Marinites
might be thinking or feeling.
Speaker 3 (10:42):
Yeah, I have to say, in fairness, the bishop has
said in other places that there are people who abuse
the novs Ordo Mass, But it doesn't seem to be
very much strong action, dude to impress that part of
what's going on in our liturgies, And you're.
Speaker 2 (10:57):
Exactly right, I mean, there is.
Speaker 3 (10:59):
It was quite interesting thing that that right after Popo
Leo was elected, and after his inauguration he met with
the representatives of the Eastern Churches who were in Rome
for the jew for the week it was dedicated in
the Jubilee for the Eastern Churches, and he talked about
how important the Eastern churches are to the West because
(11:20):
they have a sense of spirituality and a sense of
mystery in their liturgies, and how much they can teach
those of us in the West. So just if you're
following along and Leo says he's Poplio says he's following
in the line of Francis, Well, if you're following along
with that, I think you would want to wait and
see how he might want to adjust things a little bit.
(11:42):
I go back to the point that, look, if anybody
is a troublemaker and a church, of course I have
to be dealt with. But it doesn't mean just because
you like the Latin Mass doesn't mean you're a troublemaker.
It means you like Latin Mass and maybe in fact
you were more docile to your bishop as a result
of your you know, you're rigid and clericalist impulses. So look,
it's a strange argument that's being made. It's odd that
(12:04):
it's being made at this moment, and I think we're
going to have to see if Leo is going to
take the bull by the horns here and try to
set up what I think it's a more pastoral and
merciful way of dealing with people who were attached to
the traditional Latins.
Speaker 1 (12:19):
Yeah, those priests, Bob who wrote that letter begging the
bishop to avert course here and not limit the traditional
Latin Mass anymore. And what this means, essentially, for those
who may not be fully aware what this means is
they're expelling these people from a parish setting which was
set up by Pope Francis. And these priests said, are
(12:40):
people feel abused, they feel marginalized and persecuted. Here, Father,
we've covered Pope Francis's crackdown on the liturgy since it
was unleashed. What did you observe in the wake of
Benedict's Somorum pontificum that gave permission wide permission for any
priest to offer the traditional Latin Mass. Did you see
(13:02):
discord or division in the wake of that, as Pope
Francis and Bishop Martin I assume now maintain no.
Speaker 2 (13:11):
I saw nothing of the sort. In fact, we have
the Archdioceis of New York. There is quite a bit
of interest in the Latin Mass, not only in New
York City but in some of the upper counties, certainly
in Westchester County. So no different priests, I know, because
of some more in Pontificum. They began celebrating the traditional
Latin masks in parises and it worked fine. In fact,
one priest's friend of mine, he would he inserted that
(13:34):
Mass into the middle of the Sunday morning schedule, and
people told them, well, this week I'm going to Latin Mass.
Next week I'll go back to the New Mass. It
was whatever was convenient, and no, it was peaceful and harmonious.
And we have to remember there were two groups that
Bennett was concerned about. The people who followed Archbishop Lefevre.
He tried to make a deal with them to restore
(13:55):
the society of pious the tenth. That deal never came about.
But the other group, where people remained completely canonically loyal
to the Roman See, to the Holy Father, but wanted
to go to the Latin Mass in good standing. And
Pope Benedict's attitude was, how can I turn a blind
eye or a cold shoulder to people who are faithful Catholics.
(14:18):
So now let's go back. There's a deeper problem here,
and I'd be interested in Bob's opinion on this, But
there's the discontinuity and continuity schools of thought. The Vatican
Two was meant to be a discontinuity with the past,
So any attachment to anything done before the Council of
view with suspicion by some Pope Benedict and John Paul
the second of the other idea, it's all the faith
(14:40):
is from Jesus down to our time, does a continuity
of expression. There are differences, there are improvements, there are mistakes,
but we don't say categorically once a council meets everything before,
it doesn't count. And that's unfortunately, I think what some
people are basing their thoughts on.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Well, Bob, as a way to get your opinion on
that thought, I'm going to play a little bit. This
is an interview I did with Pope Benedict just before
he was elected pope, and I'll let you hear what
he says here. But he talks about what was true
then is true. Now listen to this.
Speaker 4 (15:14):
I think it was important to be open to this
possibility and to demonstrates or also say, continuity of the church.
We are to not another church as five from the
dis I go, it's always the same church and was
in one time Hollypas churches, all of us Holophos church,
and it is not in another time an impossible thing.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
Bob, your reaction to that and this idea that somehow
these people are out of the continuity and have no
place post Vatican two.
Speaker 3 (15:44):
Yeah, Look, the phrase that Benedict invented that I think
encapsulates what he was after. I mean, other than the
pastoral concern for everybody on all sides of the so
called liturgy words, the phrase he invented was mutual enrichment.
That we've got this tremendous two thousand year cultural, liturgical, spiritual, artistic,
(16:10):
literary history in our church and we have to be
in continuity with the church that goes all the way
back to Jesus Christ. At Vatican two, you know, there
were two dynamics of Vatican two. There was the jornamento,
the updating, but there also was the russourceman going back
to the church fathers. So the idea that we're somehow
(16:32):
in a hermeneutic of rupture has Benedict called it that
we've broken with the past. And we hear this phrase
with some of the people in the QUERYA these days,
we're not going back. They say, well, we don't have
to go back, because the tradition is something that is
constantly moving forward. It's like being a human person and
you draw on your entire past life with your parents
(16:53):
and your schooling and your siblings and whatnot, and all
that enables you to go forward. Obviously there are conflicts
and tentions in there, but if you abandon your past,
then you've got amnesia. You've got, you know, some disconnect
with your own humanity.
Speaker 1 (17:09):
Well, Bob, you're a musician. I always think of this
in musical terms. It would be like saying, no more
opera and no more Bach. We never want to hear
that again. We don't want to hear that Messiah that
handled guy too old out. We only go from nineteen
seventy five on. That's all we're going to play in
this church. And here this is absurd. What burn down
the Vatican museums then, because all we could all we
(17:30):
need is the modern art and the big globe thing
in the in the garden' that's enough. No more of
that Pieta, no more of those Greek statues. You don't
need that, father.
Speaker 2 (17:39):
We need the carpenters. We've only just begun. That's the
whole thing here, exactly.
Speaker 1 (17:48):
That would be the carpenters would be an upgrade to
some things I've heard in part that's true.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
We might have Ozzy Osbourne as that direct Yeah, it looks.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
Like an American IDOL audition.
Speaker 2 (17:58):
Go ahead, yeah, oh, but look what Bob says. It's
eminently reasonable. And the point here is the Pope Benedict
didn't say no one can go to the new Mass.
People said those people who want to go to the
old Mass, let them go, and the priests who want
to celebrate it, let them learn Latin, let them learn
the rubrics, let them celebrate the old Mass. Now, as
(18:19):
in all things, when when the people in charge try
to restrict a legitimate option, they create a reason which
is usually not the case, which is this option is
harmful to those who want to use it. Well, wait
a minute, was it harmful at the time the Second
Batting Council was called. Because that's the mess. They all
celebrated when they enter into Saint Peter's. It wasn't harmful
(18:39):
because guess what it produced the you know, people who
prayed and decided at the Council to make some changes.
But hey, the debate continues whether they made a good
decision in some of those post Conciliar changes. Let's just
keep the debate going.
Speaker 1 (18:52):
Yeah, Bob, the obsession that this idea that the TLM community,
those who love the Latin Right, that they were fomenting
a movement to deny Vatican two's liturgical reforms, never mind
that some of those reforms were never promulgated by Vatican two.
That they insist, oh, this is the law. That's not
(19:13):
when you're reading the documents, they don't call for the
version of the Mass we have today in most parishes.
They don't. It doesn't look like what they called for.
We should recall that. Back in twenty twenty one, when
Pope Frances issued Tradisionis Custodis, beginning the de facto's suppression
of the Old Right, he often cited the results of
a Vatican survey of bishops that he said demanded called
(19:37):
for the restrictions he would issue in this document, Here's
the quote. This is from Tradisionis Custodis I instructed the
Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith to circulate a questionnaire
to the bishops regarding the implementation of the motopproprio somorum pontificum.
That was Pope Benedict's permission. The responses revealed Pope Francis says,
(19:57):
a situation that preoccupies and say, hadden me and persuades
me of the need to intervene, an opportunity offered by
Saint John Paul, and with even greater magnanimity by BENEDICTA
sixteenth intended to recover the unity of the ecclesial body
with diverse liturgical sensibilities, was exploited to widen the gaps,
(20:20):
reinforce the divergences, and encourage disagreements that injure their church,
block her path and exposure to the peril of division.
End quote Bob. There were questions at the time about
the validity of those results of that survey, which were
never published. Your thoughts on the narrative. Though this is
a narrative, it is a characterization of a swath of
(20:44):
faithful Catholics that apparently continues.
Speaker 3 (20:47):
Look, I've heard that there are stubborn progressives as there
are stubborn and rigid traditionalists as well. I mean, if
this is not something that is unique to one side
of the liturgical war or another, and it's simply I mean,
it's very clear to me that the only way we
can approach this at this moment is to do whatever
(21:10):
we can to foster people's closeness to Jesus Christ himself.
Some are going to find it through one way, some
are going to find it through another. I go back
and I say, if people are troublemakers, if they're true troublemakers,
if there was a parish for example, or you know,
a group of a cabal within the Diocese of Charlotte,
well certainly they should be told that they have to
(21:32):
respect the rights of other people who I go to
a novsorto Mass that has a lot of Latin in it,
and I find it quite adequate for most of the
time when I go to Mass on a Sunday. But
I think that you deal with problematic persons, you don't
just declare entire swaths of the church as somehow illegitimate
or a threat or you know they're they're attempting to
(21:55):
distort what Catholicism should be in our day. I think
we learn from one another, not with this mutual enrichment
was intended to be.
Speaker 1 (22:03):
And Father Diane Montana our palot was on several weeks ago.
She reported at the time that that survey did not
say what the Vatican and Pope Francis insisted it said. There.
Speaker 2 (22:17):
That's correct because someone leaked some of the surveys and
it revealed, for instance, in Germany, the bishops were largely
content with what Pope Benedict had done. It had not
produced difficulties. Now yet, what kind of difficulties result in
disunity when people are going to a mass authorized by
the pope. The hostility is beyond the legal realm of
(22:40):
what's permitted and what's not permitted. It's a little bit
of thought control, which is basically saying, if you do
not find in the new Mass the same spiritual depth
you found in the old Mass, that you have a problem.
And my answer to that is, how can you be
so sure they have a problem. Maybe they have an insight,
maybe they have an into well, maybe they have a
(23:01):
good memory, because quite frankly, as as Bob pointed out,
the bishop and Charlotte did say that some New Order
masses novsorto masses, which are very irreverent because of different elements.
I can't tell you how often people complain about what
they experience at mass. I mean, you have some churches,
maybe not in the US, but in Europe where women
(23:22):
are giving the sermon. In other words, an unordained person
is being given this because the priest is sitting down
and saying this, this should be done. That's disunity because
he's violating not only the law, he's also questioning the
validity of the sacrament of Holy Orders because people who
aren't ordained are not supposed to preach it mass. And
there's a whole theology behind that. So if you want
(23:45):
to find disunity, take a survey of people who've been
to novsort of mass to find how many clown masses,
how many cowboy masses, how many football mass Actually of
mass once where a priest was kicking a soccer ball,
another one where they're throwing a rugby ball, and he said,
wait a minute, who's the problem, the person kneeling down
and saying dominateting on some deenius or the person the
(24:07):
priest who's throwing a soccer ball around or taking a
soccer ball.
Speaker 1 (24:10):
Excuse me, now, I've been to masses in Europe, father,
where they literally had a DJ station and in the
middle of mass, the priest went over. He was working
the table working. I've never seen anything like that. I mean,
you can't make this stuff up. But when Bishop Martin
issued his letter on this implementation of tradisi Onis on
(24:31):
Friday May twenty third, he also issued to his priests
a set of talking points. Okay, these were responses to concerns,
is what they called them, regarding the implementation of his orders.
He apparently spent a lot of time anticipating the questions
that might arise. I want to go through some of
these responses, okay. One of the most curious was quote
(24:54):
implementation of Tradiitsey onist custodis will cause people to withhold
their giving to the church. He says this the Bishop Martin.
All people are free to give in whatever way that
they choose. However, Catholics in particular are called to give
in support of the Church, not out of charity, but
as a response to the call of the Holy Spirit
(25:15):
to be faithful and committed members to the one Body
of Christ if they choose to do that based upon
a transactional model. I give when I get what I want.
That is a perspective that is more modeled by our
culture than by the good news proclaimed by Jesus in
the scripture. Bob, your thoughts on that response, So that
the faithful are obligated to give money to the diocese
(25:39):
regardless of how their faith is treated, shut up and pay.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Yeah, it's a clever argument, and probably a clever by
half over clever by half, because look, it's simply human
nature that people tend to support things. It could be
missionary activities, and it could be educational activities that they
see making a difference in the world. I mean, I
think faithful Catholics have an obligation to discern where they
(26:08):
put their financial resources and simply to say, well, look,
you've got to support us because we're the diocese. Well,
then you've got to make some prudential judgments because certain
things may be worth supporting in your diocese. I think
in every diocese there are Catholic charities and other things
that are going on, you know, schools, etc. That really
deserve some support. But the more general question is how
(26:32):
are people otherwise to register their sense of what their
church is doing in a diocese. I mean, you can
go and try to talk with a bishop, and I
mean many of us have tried to do this, and
sometimes it's fruitful and sometimes it's not. But the bishop
has a responsibility on his own part not just to
be the bishop and to require people to support him,
(26:55):
but to actually provide them with opportunities that help advance
the faith that everyone is trying to advance in a
very difficult set of circumstances in the modern world. So look,
I think it's a clever idea to try to manage
is what they know is going to be a fierce reaction,
but I will be very very surprised if it works.
Speaker 1 (27:15):
Well, Father, your thoughts on the tone of these responses,
I mean you've read them to the charge that he
isn't being sonodyl Therefore listening to people, the bishop says, quote,
listening and agreeing aren't the same thing, end quote. Couldn't
want to argue, father, that this is just the kind
of autocratic model that Pope Leo warned about in his
(27:36):
early homily. How is this appropriately pastoral?
Speaker 2 (27:40):
Well, I find it interesting with talking points because what
it means is either they've done research or they're very
intuitive because they already know what people are going to say,
which means, of course that they've already heard this as
the pastor's objections already brought forward. So you know when
you criticize people being transactional, well, isn't it transactional to say,
by way, no need to send in your comments. We
(28:02):
already know what they are. Here are the answers. So
that's a number one mistake. Number two, you know, yes,
you're supposed to give money. That's in canon law, that's
in Catholic tradition. But you know, there's a reason why
when we run annual campaigns and dioceses that we have
brightly colored brochures and meetings with the bishop because it's
(28:25):
the difference between I'll give one dollar or I'll give
a hundred. You want to give them a reason to
give a hundred. And if you recognize that people are
appreciative of what the former bishop did but you no
longer want to do it, well you have to accept
the prices that will wait a minute, are the reasons
I'm varying from what the previous bishop did? Are they
(28:45):
going to sell to the people who have benefited from that.
They obviously aren't going to so I don't think he
wants to reconsider his position. He certainly didn't reconsider what
the pastor said. So certainly lay people is not, I think,
not going to listen to what is the terrible miss
And by the way, this kind of attitude the people
are going to pay anyway. Bishops in the sex afuse
(29:06):
case to not worry about how much money they might
have to pay out later, because they say, well, we'll
just go back to the well here. And that's when
you know, lay people thank god, they said, you know, bishop,
ex bishop, why if you're using our money to pay
settlements that we don't know about, we're not happy. We're
not going to provide those funds in the future.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
Yeah. No, people will pay to support their faith, the
spread of that faith and the Orthodoxy. But when you
deter from that, they're not going to pay. They simply
and worse, they won't show up any longer. Father, And
you know this is true. You see parishes, the attendants dwindling.
Why why are these Latin mask communities packed with young
(29:49):
families and children. I was just in one in another city,
the other day they literally had them coming out the steps.
They had families standing on the steps with the door open,
listening to the masks because they couldn't fit. That tells
you something. Something is clearly happening among the young. It's
a movement, and I think they're afraid of it. I
think some people are a little afraid of it. And
(30:09):
rather than engaging and talking to these people and figuring
out why are you coming, what drew you here, and
giving them more of that spreading the faith, for whatever reason,
they've decided we're going to close the doors, shut this down,
and you all get out of here. That's the wrong approach.
That's a fast pass to orthodoxy, and that's where I
think a lot of these people are going to end up. Sadly, Bob,
(30:30):
what do you make of the timing here? A new
pope has just been elected and inaugurated. Is this really
a priority for any bishop at this moment to stamp
out a valid part of the Mass or a version
of the Mass?
Speaker 3 (30:44):
Well, many people notice that, in classic public relations fashion,
that this announcement was made late on the Friday before
mo real day weekend, which meant that, you know, the
public reaction it's a holiday weekend and you know, people
are off doing other things. Yeah, us alone tells you
that there was some serious calculation of how to present
(31:06):
this in public and to try.
Speaker 2 (31:07):
To minimize what the right was going to be.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
But I say, again, look, we've seen already with the
different way that Pope Leo handles things that it simply
would have been I think respectful. And I mean, unless
we find out that he consulted with the Vatican and
talked with the Pope Leo and he said yeah, I
go right right ahead with this, I think we need
to wait. We're very early still in this papacy. He's
(31:33):
onto many more immediate pressing questions like abuse and the
financial crisis and the Vatican, and he's been meeting with
you know people. We see Cardinal O'Malley has been there,
some of the people on the financial side, so we
know that he hasn't yet turned his mind to this
sort of liturgical thing. But we see that his liturgical
practice is much more traditional than we had previously under
(31:58):
Pope Francis. So I have to think that unless he
got the green lights somehow, And it strikes me that
kind of using this pr tactic may indicate that he didn't,
but I don't know. Yeah, I still think that it
would have been prudent, It would have been respectful to
It might have even been important if he had spoken
with the Pope to say I've gotten approval to do this.
(32:20):
We have heard that, and it makes all of this
seem very, very suspicious.
Speaker 1 (32:25):
Father. The Catechism says that the Eucharist is the sum
and summary of our faith. Our way of thinking is
attuned to the Eucharist. So people want to be more reverent,
more solemn. Why is that something to be stamped out
or viewed with suspicion.
Speaker 2 (32:42):
Well, Pot Francis was in that school of thought, and
I have to say, as you know, analyzing based on
objective statements and things that were known in the public.
He was very much a product of the sixties mentality,
which was thank god, we finally got rid of this
Latin mass. You know, there's another document if you want
to talk about it, where the bishop talk says, you
(33:04):
know that nobody knows Latin, so why are we having
mass and Latin?
Speaker 4 (33:07):
Right?
Speaker 2 (33:07):
Wait a minute, that's ridiculous. Lots of people know Latin.
And by the way, even if you don't know Latin.
It's like if you don't know Italian, I can't go
to the opera. And of course you appreciate the beauty
for crying out loud. Saint Augustin wrote all his works
in Latin. Thomas Aquinas wrote in Latin, we scholars, you know,
use that as the basis of what they do.
Speaker 1 (33:28):
Now.
Speaker 2 (33:29):
No, we have this kind of back to the rupture
an analogy that you know what the effort of Vatigan
two was to say, no more of the past. Everything
starts here. The new order of ages, you know, which
is on the dollar bill. I mean, this is American Republic.
Was something new. Vatican two was in continuity with all
(33:49):
the other councils because it was doing the same thing.
The doctor and the faith was being taught. So yeah,
we don't need.
Speaker 1 (33:56):
It.
Speaker 2 (33:57):
Bothers me as a pastor of souls, that anybody would
be shown the door after they've been attending Mass in
a beautiful way and never displaying any hostility to the
doctrine of the faith, of the unity of the Church.
That I can perceive if there was a rebellion of
people rejecting the authority of the Holy see in the
dyes of Charlotte. I think he would have heard about it.
I don't think it ever happened.
Speaker 1 (34:18):
No, no, Well, the faithful who loved the Old Mass
are also encouraged by Bishop Martin and I love this bit, Bob,
to engage in some acts of penance and charity for
the healing of the church. This is like saying, as
I beat you and throw you out of the house,
pray for my intentions and consider how bad you've been.
He also advises them to stop listening to podcasts and
(34:40):
to have a media blackout, that they should just state
of their own thoughts. I mean, this is somebody said
mind control. Who said it? I think it was your
father that you know, this is a mind This is
really mind control, Bob, Yeah, thought control.
Speaker 2 (34:52):
Yeah, yeah yeah.
Speaker 3 (34:54):
And I think it's unfortunate that he's using spiritual categories
for this, as almost to say that you're bordering on
something like sinfulness or sism or you know whatever, the disunity, whatever,
the principle is here, and that in fact what you
need to do is look into your soul. Well, I mean,
we all need to look into our souls on a
(35:15):
daily basis for a variety of things.
Speaker 2 (35:17):
But I'm willing to bet the.
Speaker 3 (35:20):
Desire to attend the Latin Mass is pretty far down
on the list of sins that most people are likely
to commit. And if you're up high enough, I think
we're all going to hear about it. You're right, I
mean there's going to be an open clash with some
group or other and in the local pastor, we didn't
hear about any such thing.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
No, no, Father, will this situation, the escalation of this
blackout on the traditional Latin Mass? Do you think this
will provoke Pope Leo to act? Should he abrogate Pope
Francis's restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass? Well?
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Absolutely, I think yeah, traditionals Coustol this should be with
on as a document and go back to what Benedict
did because quite frankly, the pastoral good of the church
was being promoted and there was no manifest disunity being
experienced by the Catholic Church in any country that I
(36:16):
know of. If the bishops of Germany were happy with
Benedict because they had a lot of objections to what
he did, I think we can re secure things were okay,
and just on a human level. You mentioned the number
of Catholics in the dice is how many go to
Mass on Sunday? You can't find room for a couple
of thousand people to attend Mass in a beautiful form.
(36:36):
Of course you can. This is unfortunately, a will to
enforce this notion that any competition to the New Mass
is going to hurt the church. And as you know,
I'm a free market. Economic competition spurs excellence, you know.
I mean, why do we have multiple podcasts out there
(36:58):
because people say, well, I like, but guess what, why
is better?
Speaker 3 (37:02):
Now?
Speaker 2 (37:02):
I hope they say that the Royal Grande is better,
because it is. But the point of the matter is,
let a thousand flowers bloom. Yeah, the Mass be said.
And by the way, you want to talk about vocations
of the priesthood, so many of them come out of
the either Latin mass community or the knowledge that well,
you know, as need is, maybe I can say the
old Mass and the New Mass. That certainly was the
(37:24):
case in the Benedict. Only good things happen when freedom
of choice is given in this matter, because this is
choosing a spiritual benefit that was proven over the course
of the centuries.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
Yeah, and Bob, we should remember the late Pond. If
Pope Francis had no qualms whatsoever really ending a signature
piece of legislation by his immediate predecessor, by Pope Benedict.
Speaker 3 (37:50):
Yeah, I have to say I'm still absolutely shocked by
the way that that came about. And it came about
not only at like an abstract level where you can't
celebrate a traditional Latin Mass in a parish within the diocese.
I mean we even saw things like can you announce
in a parish bulletin when Latin masses are going to
(38:11):
be held or you know, wherever the Latin Mass is
going to be held. I mean there's really this kind
of minute attempt to impose I don't know if we
want to call it an ideology, but there's some sense
of something that has to be preserved and if it
isn't carefully somehow fenced off from criticism and the dynamics
(38:31):
that other people have, it's fragile. I mean, it almost
is a confession that something is fragile, that they're worried
is about to be destroyed. So look this, I don't
think that this question is going to go away, because
I think it raises again. Yet the things that we kept,
we've been talking about for sixty plus years with Vatican two,
(38:52):
that the Church has not yet found a balance between
the Church prior to the Council and the post conciliary Church.
There can be this fruitful coexistence with one another.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, Benedict. I think Benedict tried, Bob. I think he
found it. I just think subsequently this narrative was born,
and we'll get to that in a moment that I
think justified the ending of the balance and the common
sense balance with history as well as the the you know,
with looking with eyes to the future. We should also
(39:24):
say a draft letter came out from Bishop Martin that
was leaked to a website and it was a host
of liturgical prohibitions. Now it calls for it. You reference
this earlier Father, the striking of all Latin even from
the New Mass, which I don't think he can actually do.
(39:44):
I think that's part of Vatican two and the reform.
He condemns the praying of the Saint Michael's prayer at
the end of Mass. He wants to forbid kneeling to
receive communion. Father, How is any of that in keeping
with the reforms of Vatican two? Is it? No?
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Look, it's not. If he objects to Latin being used
in the Novis Ordo, then the first thing has to
do is send a letter to Pope Leo, because he
just celebrated his inaugural Mass, which was both in Italian
and Latin. Latin is used all over the Church as
a matter of course, because it's not prohibited. Latin was
never prohibited. There's no prohibition of celebrating the New Mass
(40:23):
in Latin. So to celebrate the New Mass in English
with parts in Latin, it's perfectly legal and it's good.
Now he makes points that people don't know Latin, therefore
it shouldn't be used. That's crazy. Forgive me, you know,
Bishop of saying using that harsh word, but it doesn't
make any sense.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
You know, we should end the carry speaks Greek father.
Speaker 2 (40:45):
Yeah, we have the currie alas on the Greek. You know,
have the reproaches for good Friday. No look to say
that the health of a people depends on forgetting everything
that led up to the present version of the Mass,
that's just a ridiculs this way of thinking. It's nonsensical
in order to as a priest. You know, when I
(41:05):
was studying in the seminary, how the rubrics when I
was supposed to do. The rubrics of the New mass
are a modification of the previous rubrics. So in any
scientific study, as people know, if you want to know
the origin and nature and purpose of something, you find
it's antecedents and its precedents, and that's what we do.
So you know, I feel sorry for people in that
(41:27):
diosis if they do, in fact try to abolish singing
a kyrie or a sanctus or an anyo stay in
Latin because somehow this is harmful. That's not that doesn't
make sense.
Speaker 1 (41:40):
The bigger problem here, father, is it's not even in
keeping with the general instruction of the Roman missile. It
demands certain things. The Latin is mentioned there, the people
of the option to kneel or stand. That's really up
to the people receiving community anyway, Bob. It's being reported
that Bishop Martin will not release that letter of those
you know, prohibitions on practices even in the New Mask,
(42:03):
mostly due to the blowback it's being reported from his clergy,
which is all the more reason why the sheep should
keep their ear to the ground and keep raising their voices.
Speaker 3 (42:15):
I think, yeah, I read that draft letter and I
have to say, I mean, it takes your breath away
that there can't be alter rails. If you have them,
they need to be pulled out. There can't be predieu,
there can't be objects on the altar that block the
view of the sacred elements, the bread and wine. I mean,
(42:39):
it's like a progressive wish list, you know, just one
thing after another, and the thing that is quite sad
from my point of view. And you know, I know
other people may look at this differently. Yes, in a way,
Christianity is about simplicity and you know, the poor and
marginalized and whatnot, but it's not about dumbing down or
(43:03):
or bringing everything down to the kind of most passive
element in our churches is if we can't have anything elevated,
we can't have any music, we can't have any special language.
I'm always surprised when I'm at Mass and we're using
Latin that a lot of the people who never have
(43:23):
never studied Latin know how to say on Usday. They
know they our Father yea domain on some dignis. They've
heard it enough that they can do it and they
kind of know what it means actually, and we know
that the Vatican Document on the Liturgy actually asked that
we lift people up, bring them up to understanding. You
bring them up to be able to understand chant and
(43:43):
appreciate different forms of music, and also to have contemporary forms,
not to just move everything down to the kind of
most pedestrian street level. When we need to lift up
our hearts and our spirits to God.
Speaker 1 (43:58):
Well, people should read the Vatican Council documents Vatican two
consul Documents on the Liturgy. It calls for the preservation
of the Latin, It calls for polyphony and chant in
the mass. Many places you don't have any of that.
So if we want to talk about continuity with the Council,
if that's the new bar for everything, well you've got
(44:19):
to then read the document and figure it out. But
it really my heart bleeds for the people in those
parishes in North Carolina, in Charlotte, as well as other
places that have endured this over the last few years.
It's not only there. This is just the most flagrant
and recent example. The Anglican Communion. I want to switch
gears here. They have not had an Archbishop of Canterbury
(44:40):
since November of twenty twenty four. Father the Crown Nominations Committee.
That's the group that elects the next head of the
Anglican Communion. They are in place now, everybody's been selected
and they're about to elect a new Archbishop of Canterbury.
What is the sluggish process tell you about the vitality
(45:02):
of that communion? And it's being reported they could have
their first female Archbishop of Canterbury.
Speaker 2 (45:09):
Well, you know, the reality is the King of England
appoints the Archbishop of Canterbury and that is not what
the Catholic Church is doing and approves of, but that's
what the Anglican Communion does. So it's really up to
the King how long he wants things to go or
how quick he wants them to go. The sad thing,
(45:30):
of course, is that you know, in Christian understanding, the
shepherd is supposed to stand over the sheep and lead
them in salvation. So the shepherd is not supposed to
be sort of like an icon of the whole community
and what the community thinks is important, supposed to be
a represent of Jesus and what he thinks important. So
(45:51):
hopefully they'll like someone who is a serious Christian in
the sense of believing in the Bible, the doctrine that's
communicated by Christ who his apostles. But you know, as
a Catholic priest, I lament, you know the extraneous factors
such as, well, we have to have a woman bishop,
therefore we're going to get one. Well we don't accept
women bishop, so lead that aside. But what about the
(46:15):
we need to dose someone who's a really good shepherd
to lead the church. I hope that's what they do.
Speaker 1 (46:20):
Yeah, well, Bob. It also an Anglican friend of mine,
a cleric, reached out to me during the conclave and said,
it's amazing the world is paying all this attention to
the election of a pope. We haven't had an archbishop
of Canterbury for months. Nobody's paying any attention at all.
They don't even report on it. I mean it is
kind of stunning.
Speaker 3 (46:39):
Yeah, and it's sad. Look for all the differences in
the conflicts we've had with the Anglicans over the years,
and they've certainly killed enough Catholic priests you back at
the founding.
Speaker 1 (46:49):
Of their own church.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
It's quite sad because the Anglican tradition, and we're all.
Speaker 2 (46:54):
In native English speakers.
Speaker 3 (46:57):
I really think that the Anglican Ordinaria, which was another
gift that we got from Poe Benedict, is one of
the beautiful additions to the liturgies of.
Speaker 2 (47:06):
The Western Church.
Speaker 3 (47:07):
And when I go to some of those masses, it
really strikes me that there's there's something beautiful about having
an English language mass. It has a tradition going back
to Shakespeare and even earlier. The oddness about their inability
to select somebody, I think has Father put his kind
of put his finger on it has partly to do
(47:29):
with this political considerations that you know, they exist in
our church as well, but not quite in the same
way as they seem to exist in the Anglican Church.
And on top of it, their previous Archbishop of Canterbury
had to resign because he mishandled some sexual abuse cases.
And I think that that maybe have been a trauma
(47:49):
that has made them think long and hard about who
is final question.
Speaker 1 (47:53):
Last Sunday, the Pope publicly prayed for Chinese Catholics at
the Vatican, and he said that in the churches and
shrines in China and throughout the world, prayers have been
raised to God as a sign of the solicitude and
affection for Chinese Catholics and their communion within the Universal Church.
(48:13):
Pau Benedict instituted this feast a Father. But with that
twenty eighteen Vatican China Deal still in play, what do
you think was meant by this? Why do you think
the Pope Leo underscored it?
Speaker 2 (48:26):
Well, it was the feace of our Lady at Shan,
which is the Chinese appellation of our Blessed Virgin Mother. Yeah,
he has solicitude for the Chinese Catholics, There's no doubt,
because he did bring it up. But in my opinion,
he needs then to look at the secret Chinese agreement,
and he needs to look at the appointment of bishops
(48:47):
who are unworthy by the Communist party to run dioceses
in that country. And he needs to look quite frankly
at this the overall persecution of the Catholic Church in China.
I mean again, we mentioned Jimmy Lai frequently in other venues.
Jimmy Lai is a Catholic convert who is in prison
on trumped up charges in Hong Kong, and not once
(49:09):
has the Holy See ever mentioned his name in dealing,
you know, in proclaiming the need for human rights throughout
the world, and that was a glaring omission and last pontificate.
It would be nice if we heard that post France
of poe Leo had sent a letter to Jimmy Lai
and to others who were imprisoned. It means it's up
to him to decide the modalities. By just saying, your
(49:31):
Holy Father, speaking as someone who's followed this story and
we all have, why is it that political prisoners in
other countries get the attention of the Holy See, but
not a Chinese Catholic who's so faithful.
Speaker 1 (49:43):
Well, Bob, last word, and you've written a fantastic book
that is an entire chapter on this persecuted, persecuted and
martyr church in China.
Speaker 2 (49:52):
Yeah, thank you, Raymond.
Speaker 3 (49:53):
I appreciate your mentioning that. Look, he Poplio was the
head of the Congregation for bishops. He must know very well.
You know who the bishops are there where they stand.
We know from work by our friend Nina Shay and others.
It's something like ten bishops have just disappeared, either either
in prison or they're dead, and they're just gone. We
(50:13):
don't know where they are. So I agree with Father. Look,
the situation is known. We have pretty good data on
what's happened to people like Jimmy Lai. Even Cardinals Zen
at one point was being threatened in Hong Kong. We
have a pretty good idea of what's happening there. It
would take some very very delicate negotiations, I think to
(50:37):
withdraw the Church from that agreement. It might bring some
further harm to Catholics there, But I think we have now.
We can see clearly we've made a deal with the devil.
And you know what happens when you make a deal
with the devil, It never turns out well.
Speaker 1 (50:51):
Well, and we know Pope Leo is one of the
only popes in recent memory who actually has visited China
when he was head of the Augustinian Order, talked about
going and visiting Augustinian homes there and meeting with clergy.
So he probably has a different perspective here than any
of his predecessors. Let's hope, you know, grace and knowledge
(51:14):
prevails upon him to involve himself in the situation of
this poor community and much beleaguered Catholic faithful posse. We
will leave it there, and if you want more of
the Arroyo Grande Prayerful Posse and who doesn't Subscribe to
the Arroyo Grande Show on YouTube, Arroyo Grande Podcast wherever
(51:34):
you get your podcasts, Spotify, Apple, Go wherever you get it,
and sign up on behalf of Robert Royal, Father Gerald
Murray till the Posse rides again. Stay in the light.
I'm Raymond Arroyo. We'll see you next time by now.
Arroyo Grande is produced in partnership with iHeart Podcasts and
is available on the iHeartRadio, Apple wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (52:00):
Because percasts Spooks consists focused perkastanis
Host
Raymond Arroyo
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.