Gregg Renfrew - Entrepreneur/Businessperson and the Founder and CEO of Beautycounter

In this episode, Jeff sits down with one of the leading ladies and pioneers in the clean beauty movement, Gregg Renfrew. Greg is an entrepreneur and businessperson and the Founder and CEO of the brand who has paved the way in the clean beauty movement, Beautycounter. Listen as Gregg explains what it was like working for big names like Martha Stewart and Susie Hilfiger as well as her footprint in the clean beauty industry. 

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:05):
Wow. If you're listening to the Art of the Hustle,
the show that breaks down how the world's most fascinating
people have hustled their way to the top. I'm your host,
Jeff Rosenthal, co founder of Summit Inn, owner of Powder
Mountain Ski Resort in Utah, and today I have the
pleasure to sit down with one of the pioneers and
the clean beauty movement, Greg Renfew. For those listening, Greg

(00:26):
Renfew is an entrepreneur, businesswoman, and the founder and CEO
of Beauty Counter, a brand that has led and pioneered
the clean beauty movement, and they have redefined the way
makeup and skincare products are formulated and sold. Today, the
clean beauty revolution is here, and it's bigger than ever before,
and so we're really excited to dive into it. Please
help me. Welcome to the studio, Greg Renfew, Thank you,

(00:46):
Thank you for coming. Really appreciate you making it out
this way. Thank you for having me. It's nice to
be here, of course, and I'm really really blown away
with what you've built with Beauty Counter. Congratulations, it's it's
really special. Um, and you know it's sort of throwaway
when people are like oh, they pioneered clean beauty, but
you really did pioneer clean beauty. That wasn't a term
that was in the marketplace. There wasn't really a company

(01:09):
servicing this when you guys got started in two thous correct.
So you know, when I started Beauty Counter, I think
I was looking at the market and there were some
eco friendly brands out there marketing themselves as green and
they want they weren't really commercially viable because I think
the average consumer wasn't necessarily looking for quote unquote green products.
But also they didn't work that well, they didn't look

(01:30):
that good, and I thought there's an opportunity to bring
high performing, great products into the market that are significantly safer,
and I think we coined I can't promise you that
we coined the phrase clean, but I can promise you
that that no one was saying it when we started,
and I believe we did because you know, someone needed
to change the industry or you know, it's easy to
do things small and to have a small idea. It's

(01:51):
much much harder to tool organization to go after something large.
But uh, you know, and not to jump forward, but
you know, I know that you've been a serial entrepreneur
for quite some time. I read that your first business
was was a house cleaning business in Nantucket? Is that accurate?
So you know you like Botes right, because you guys
have have done some incredible events on boat. So when

(02:11):
I was in college, I there's a really hot guy
that I had a crush on who told me that
he had gone in this thing called Semester at sea
and that you could circumnavigate the globe on a boat
with seven kids. I thought that sounds amazing, and my
mother said, you know, you're welcome to go, but I
can't afford to send you beyond I can afford to
pay your normal tuition, but I can't provide the extra
couple of thousand dollars. And so that summer a friend

(02:33):
had invited me to go to Nantucket and I started
co calling all of the real estate companies that I
needed to make like three thousand dollars, which I know
to some people doesn't seem like a lot of money,
but actually three thousand dollars when you're eighteen is a
lot of money. So I started a house cleaning company
with a couple of friends, and we made a bunch
of money that summer and I was able to go
on semester and see that was my my end game
on that one. It was that the first business that

(02:54):
you started, was that your first sort of like independent
hustle company. Totally? I mean that was my first hustle.
I think that, you know, I was. I grew up
in a family where my mom and dad got divorced
when I was young, and they struggled to make ends
meet at times, and so I always had something I
was doing. I was always like catering or babysitting or whatever.
But I think this was my first thing that I
actually started from scratch and built. And then you know

(03:16):
I read about it was the wedding the wedding company
of the wedding List. Yes, and and that was I believe,
like early two thousand's. Um was that your first entrepreneurial
business after school? That you have some jobs before that
or what were you doing running up to that? So
when I graduated from college, my mother again my mom
gave me a briefcase and a check and said, you're

(03:37):
on your own, like, you know, figure it out. And
I so I went to work for an advertising firm
for like a couple of months and then, like a
lot of people I know or people who are not lying,
I racked up some credit card debt and I called
my mother and I said, I can't pay my am
Ex bill, and she's like, well, time to get a
new job. So I took a job with Xerox Corporation,
actually selling fax machine copy or bombos. I mean, this

(04:00):
dates me, but I was like, you know, it was
an incredible sales training program. And so that was my
first real corporate job. And but on the side, you know,
I was going to all these weddings and I always
always have I always have a side hustle. So I
started a bridesmaid stress company trying to sell wedding dresses,
which led me to actually understand there was an opportunity
in wedding registry. Yeah. And by the way, the Xerox

(04:22):
machine piece, like myself and my co founders, three out
of the four of us had jobs where we did
direct sales or cold calls, and like, I think it's
so insanely valuable. Actually, one just to just like that's
the red ocean. You know, it's like there's it's it's
not you don't have a an ingenious um, you know,
take on the market and ultimately, if you don't have

(04:43):
the experience of like cold calling, taking all the meetings,
getting doors slammed in your face, pretty hard to like
start out as an entrepreneur. It's so true, and I
it's so funny. A friend of mine today announced that
she sold her beauty business, which I was super psyched
for her, and I said, you know, it's particularly important
to me to congratulate you because I actually know how
hard it is to build a business. And I was.
And this woman called me this morning from London and

(05:05):
wanted some advice on her company, which was so flattering,
and I was saying, like, just even get to a
million dollars of sales, for anyone to build any size
of business, you know, it is hard. Everyone does slam
the door in your face. And I don't care whether
you're selling Xerox copiers or you're trying to create a
new beauty brand or you're selling widgets. It doesn't it
doesn't really matter. I mean, I think it is part
of the game. And what I always try to tell
the people around me is you're gonna get like nine

(05:27):
knows to everyone yes, but that one yes can really
make a difference and you just kind of stay the course.
But it is a tumbling I mean literally had people
slam the door in my face. And I was selling
in the jewelry district of New York City, and I
mean I literally would lock and there was a slam,
slam slam. But you know, it makes you stronger. I
don't want to rush through your you know, the beginning
stages of your career. But Beauty Counter is really you know,

(05:47):
I wasn't aware of the mission and how important the
mission and how important the advocacy is for you. But um,
what was the origin story? What was the initial inspiration
for you? Where you started getting the inkling that you
need to start this company. So one of my really
good friends suggested that I watch An Inconvenient Truth back
in two thousand six, and it was the first time
I watched that film, and it was a real wake

(06:09):
up call for me. I started. She kept saying, like, Greg,
you're very outspoken, you're super direct. You know a lot
of people like you need to be a voice for
change in the environmental health movement. Honestly, I didn't really
know much about it. I was living in the city
and so I so I watched that film and it
really hit me like a ton of bricks. So I
started becoming really focused on recycling and you know, all
the all the things that everyone else at all those
places that people have gone through trying to be more

(06:31):
environmentally friendly. But but sort of subsequent to watching that,
over the next couple of years, I watched so many
of my friends getting sick, girls and guys in their twenties, thirties,
you know, getting diagnosed with different types of cancer. I
had a number. My best friend could never bring a
baby to term, ended up having thankfully being able to
use a circuit to have a child. I had other
friends who were giving birth to kids with significant health issues.

(06:53):
And I think I was I was a full time
working mama by the time that I sort of really
came to this, and it was, I guess around two
thousand seven, two thousand eight, and I had at a
full time caregiver for my daughter as I was the
CEO of a children's clothing company at the time, and
she was diagnosed with a non hpv V related cervical
cancer and died at thirty one years old ten months

(07:14):
later in my arms. And all those things together, yeah,
it was awful. And I think what it really did
for me, all of those things combined made me realize, like,
something's gone terribly awry, and what is it that's changing
everything that's making us sick and making the environment sick?
And I started to do a lot of research and
and you know, I couldn't believe some of the stuff
that I was learning when I was when I was

(07:35):
doing my research for this interview. But you know, the
ten ten thousand plus chemicals that you know, we know
have some sort of negative effect potentially to human health
that are all in many of these things that we
put on our bodies and in our bodies on the
daily basis here in the United States. Correct, Yeah, it's crazy.
I mean, so the beauty industry so so we've introduced
over eighty five thousand chemicals into commerce since World War Two?

(07:58):
And did the beauty industry is governed by legislations that
pre dates World War Two. It's the last time a
major federal law was passed was in It was part
of the Federal Food Federal Food and Drugs Cosmetics Act,
and it's like one and half pages long. And I think,
for a brief moment in time, cosmetic and personal care
products were safe for health, but then all these chemicals

(08:18):
were introduced in less than ten percent of we're been
tested for safety on human health, and a lot of
those chemicals, to your point, about ten to twelve thousand
of those are commonly used. And when we talk about this,
I wanted because I'm sure a lot of people that
listen to you are men as well. It's not just
like women's lipstick. It's it's your deodor and it's your
shave cream, it's your bubble bath, it's the sun screen,
it's anything that we're putting on our bodies every single day. Yeah,
aluminum and anti presspers exactly, you know, all the running

(08:42):
experiment of most sunscreens and what we're putting on our
bodies right like um and and I also heard you
say that I think the EU banned something like thirteen
hundred chemicals, whereas the US and that same time for him,
is banned about thirties. The last like ten years when
I started, kind of, the U s had banned eleven
and the had been close to they had banned or
restricted either way. We're dangerously far behind the times, and

(09:06):
we're now up to a whopping thirty I think they
banned trick lesson and some of these you know that
you know that was used in all of the antibacterial
soaps um But you know, we have a really long
way to go in this country. Yeah. And what I
love about you and about your you know, deep belief
in your your your style of leadership is you know,
you weren't aiming to create you know, a nice venture
back startup that you could sell and you know a

(09:28):
cool little you know, natural beauty company. You wanted to
change beauty. Your intention was to change personal care. You know.
It's interesting. Years ago someone gave me a book called
Blue Ocean Strategy and they talked about they used a
couple of examples, you know, one was to Slay versus
the Ringling Brothers and Barnamin Bailey circus. Another one was
Tubuck Chuck. And I think these are brands that have

(09:48):
gone into an existing market that is obviously saturated and
has been around, you know, sizeable industry, and they've sort
of redefined what it is to be a leader in
that space. And I think that's what we set out
to do. It's not that the industry didn't exist. Obviously,
there's a multi multibillion you know, many tens of billions
and beauty sold every year. About how do we take
an existing industry and lead it to a better place.

(10:11):
And that's what we've tried to do with Beauty Counter.
It wasn't you know. Our mission is to get safer
products into the hands of everyone, not beauty counter products
into the hands of everyone. But how do we actually
transform an industry that was in you know, in great
need of of innovation, transformation and disruption. And that's what
we set out today and most of us still don't know,
you know, about the things that are in the the
products that were either using or consuming. So I'm curious

(10:34):
for you when you first started going out and raising
the money and building the team, was was where you
met with, you know, a lot of excitement and support.
Was it hard for you to get people on board initially?
You know, it was a little bit. This is funny
because last time around, when I had the wedding list,
it was incredibly difficult to raise capital. I think when
I was I was really young, I was a woman,
and I was talking about weddings. I mean, you know,

(10:55):
just do this like it's like you know triple that.
I mean, you know, men were looking at me like
their eyes with glaze over the second I would open
my mouth. And yet it was still like a forty
billion dollar industry in the US, and we were actually
trying to convince people that you would buy wedding gifts online.
I mean, go figure to even have that conversation today.
Of course, no one who wants to go to start
to buy a wedding president. You know what you're comfortable spending.
You want to get done in a click. I think

(11:15):
when I went out to raise money for Beauty Counter,
I think I had a bit of a track record,
so that helped. I was much more confident. I think
one of the mistakes that the first time entrepreneurs do
when they go out to raise capital um is that
they that they are so worried about getting the money
that they don't interview the people back. And you know,
there are a couple of meetings I went to. Someone
begged me for a meeting and they were texting the

(11:37):
whole time. So I was like, you know what, guys,
you're wasting my time. I just like, thank you so much,
Like you're not actually going to be able to bid
to be you know, part of one of my investors,
because you don't have the respect for me having sat there,
you know, after a requesting meeting. And so I think
because I had a better attitude, and because I could
clearly articulate the white space and the need for change,
and every single person, every one of us, directly or indirectly,

(11:58):
it has been touched by one of these health shoes
we face as a nation today. So that that always
struck a chord with people. So it's never easy raising money, um,
but but I was able to do it this time around.
And what about the supply chain? Was that there was
there a lot of convincing for you know, you're a
new company, your startup, you want to formulate these things
in a totally different manner than they're used to. Was

(12:19):
that was that some arm twisting or how did you convinced?
You know? I mean, first of all, no one was
asking them for these things. And so first and foremost,
most people with whom I came into contact back in
the day thought it was totally crazy, Like they were like,
no one cares about this, And I said, well they will.
They're gonna They're gonna care about this in the second
that the consumer knows. I mean, you said earlier. You know,

(12:41):
the reality is less than Americans still have any idea
that they are harmful chemicals and the products that they
use every day. So convincing people that they wanted to
build a business with us was hard, and for for
a long time they hated us. They used to cause
brutal counter and it would be kind of brutal, and
that was because we would go through like hundreds of submissions,
because we were asking them to come up with new
ingredients that they'd never used, and we wanted the same performance.

(13:03):
I mean, at the end of the day, you know,
if it doesn't work and you don't love it, you're
not going to come back. I might expose you to
the truth, but at the end of the day, you
want the performance. And so it was really difficult. But
over time they saw our you know, our business explode,
and then they saw all these other brands coming in
and handing them our products and saying, hey, we need
to follow their lead. And so now now they listen.
But it took a while, of course, and you guys

(13:26):
have outperformed every traditional beauty company in the growth and
in the pace of sales and all stuff we were
talking about. We've been seeing Beauty Counter on the buses
locally here in Los Angeles. Some of our associates, I know,
my son was like, hey, man, that's my mom's company.
I was like, okay, I'm finally cool with my son.
Occasionally these things happened the bus. He was yelling at

(13:46):
the bus driver. Of course the person was like, what
the hell are you talking about? Anyway? That's good. No,
I love that, and um, you know, part of it,
I imagine must be your independent consultants. Right, you have
a veritable army of men and women men out there,
I imagine more women than men, but an army of
women with a few good men like that. So how

(14:07):
many people are we talking about that are out there
like you know, you know, second primary and secondary income,
you know, representing Beauty Counter yea. So over the years,
we've i think created about a little over sixty jobs,
and currently we have about forty women in North America
that are actively selling products and building businesses with us.
And it's it's interesting because most of them have never

(14:27):
been in sales in any capacity in any company in
their lives. But they really believed in being part of
a movement and they wanted to be educators and they
wanted to provide solutions through you know, I would say
that we use commerce as an engine for change, and
they are able to earn an income that is meaningful
at times to their families, some of some of them,
you know, it's not about the money. Other people they're trying,

(14:48):
they're struggling to make ends meet. And maybe that's the
difference between a private school education or a public or
just you know, comfortably going back to school shopping or
holiday shopping. But for most of them, it is the
combination of I can be part of meaningful change. I'm
watching people around me get sick. I want this to stop,
and I'm going to help you pass laws. And I'm
also going to have a great side hustle. It allows
me to make some good money. Turned to my husband

(15:09):
and say, hey, I got dinner tonight. Amazing. And was
that part of the thinking originally when you started the company?
Was that part of your vision or did that come later?
It actually wasn't part of my original vision. You know,
I came out of the department store. My most recent jobs,
you know, both with the wedding list UM, I had
a partnership with Nordstrom and then when I ran Best
In Company had a partnership with Nemon Marcus, and I
was watching the distribution of products department stores waning, and

(15:32):
I kind of thought, like, department s are, like, they're over.
Sorry if you work in a department store, but like
for me, it's it's not that they will completely ceased
to exist, but they kind of they're kind of dead.
And so, and I also knew that I was gonna
be battling for shelf space with the top brands who
by the way, I didn't want this story to get out,
and so I was trying to figure out, how can
I tell a story. Obviously e commerce was always going
to be a big part of our business, but back

(15:53):
the time, you know, you know, if you go back eight,
eight or nine years, you know, it was really difficult
for people to make an initial purchasing decision on skin
carea cosmetics online. Once they bought it, yeah, they'll replenish
all day long. And so for anyone said if you
considered direct sales, to which I literally was like hell now,
because I thought that was a totally antiquated industry. But
then I looked at it and I thought, wow, this
is amazing, Like we compower this through people and create

(16:14):
economic opportunities and change in industry like home run. Like
it took me literally like a three hour, three hours
of looking at it to decide like this is definitively
the way to go. And was it Tupperware or what
was the company that initially did this like in the
sixties with the Avon It was Avon. Avon actually was
founded about a hundred and twenty five years ago, and
and before women even had the right to vote, they
were able to earn you know, financial independence as an

(16:36):
Avon representative, and you know, it was such a forward
thinking company. I think unfortunately, like department stores, I think
many of the direct salist companies did not evolve with
the times and didn't realize that you know, today's consumers shops,
single brands from multiple channels, and independent consultants don't look
like what they might have looked like, you know, fifty
years ago. That they've evolved and they're primarily moving forward
in a digital world, and so they didn't evolve. I mean,

(16:57):
it's it's not too similar to traditional retail. Yeah, And
I think the stigma for for independent sales consultants are
you know, multi channel marketing. I think most of those
products are either one outdated, like you know, using the
same chemicals that you created your company to avoid um
or things that are like you know, nutra suticals or whatever. Ultimately,

(17:18):
you know, when when I hear you talk about I
think about like, you know, the next the next iteration
of of like and And I don't mean this in
a derogatory term whatsoever, but tom Shoes. Tom's was this
first product that allowed us as consumers, for me, at
least for my generation, to like express my values through
the foot where I was wearing. You know, you giving
these these women and a few good men the opportunity

(17:41):
to not only earn an income, but to you know,
represent the future. I think that you've you know, enabled
your customers as storytellers, which I imagine has an incredible
exponential impact on your business. I think, you know, yeah,
I'm look, I think that to your point, companies like
Tom's did an amazing job to Actually, Candice, who was
one of the people who ran Towns from the beginning,

(18:02):
is on our board, has been fact I'm actually interviewing
at our corporate offices earlier later on today. She and
I are super close, but um, she invilaated an amazing
job building that business. But I think at the end
of the day, you know, for us, and I think
there are a few companies over the years that you know,
I always I was saying to a bunch of suits yesterday,
you know, finance guys, that I was like, wait, so
you know what Bernie made opted that was like the
ultimate pyramid scheme and you you look at we were

(18:24):
We sell product. And what I think direct selling companies
have done wrong is that they've often tier point. They've
either they've overpromised and delivered into the efficacy of product,
or they're selling a business opportunity not a product. I
mean Avon. At the end of the day, they sell
product and they get paid on the sale of products.
There are other companies out there that are saying, hey,
you pay me five thousand, I'm gonna show you how
to get fifty thou That's not us. And I think
unfortunately people somehow get caught up in a few bad eggs,

(18:48):
but somehow we still support all the financial institutions even
though there a few bad eggs out there too. So
to me, it's like can we stop. You know, one
of the things I think is a woman that is unfortunate.
And I think it's also often women to women is
that we don't applaud each other for making the choices
we do. And and as you you know, I'm older
than you are. But when when when I look at
some of my friends who chosen to be at home,

(19:09):
that you know they feel insufficient because they've chosen to
be at home. And then you look at my friends
like me that are working full time, and then you
feel like, well, I'm a shitty mom because I work
full time. I don't care about my children. And the
reality is that most people, most people need to work
and and it's okay to do either. Choices fine, and
we women and men, but we will men too because
people will always come up to me and ask me, like,
you know, who's taking care of your children? And like

(19:30):
I am so on top of it with my kids,
you can't even imagine. But we need to applaud each
other for making different choices. And I think that's part
of I think what's fed into this negativity about um
about direct selling is that you know, God forbid, woman
asked for the order, ask for money. I mean, you
know that's it seems crazy but it's really the truth,
and we do that to each other and it needs
to stop. Well, I totally agree and really applaud you for,

(19:52):
you know, empowering such a huge community of people through
your business. It's amazing. And to that point, I wanted
to ask you a bit about the advocacy work. I
know that you know that was a pillar that you
started the business on. Um I imagine you're also doing
some stuff in Washington too. Would love to it, would
love to hear. So when I started the company, it
was really okay, first and foremost, we need to educate
because people were largely unaware. And you know, we all

(20:14):
know that education, you know, not just power, and so
you know, and I do feel like we sell a
beauty product, but actually what we educate on is a
cleaner lifestyle in general. And I find that, you know,
it's like I came in here and I'm like, oh
my god, Like why you have these toxic cleaning products
in here. I'm not going to be in the brands,
but I don't do that. But you know, it's like
I want you to leave. I want you to be healthy,
like I want you to be able to have kids
when you want to have kids and have a great lifestyle,

(20:35):
and I want you to live till you're nine and
dropped dead in your sleep, like a peacefully. That's like
that's the ideal world. And I think we we don't
do enough of that. So I think when we educate,
we try to go beyond just our product line to say,
here are ten ways you know, always say to people
just take your shoes off at the door, that in
of itself were remove you know less in your toxic load.
Like significantly. We also obviously wanted to provide solution. And

(20:56):
we are a for profit company, and I think one
of the reasons where for profit is because I think
that consumer brands can move markets faster than legislation will
ever change, and so you need to you always say,
to Nike, if someone says just do it, or if
Nike tells you to do something, or Apple does or whatever,
Uber pick the brand, people listen. And I think that
that was important to us. And I am also a capitalist,
and I believe that you can do well and do
good simultaneously. But the most important thing for me was

(21:17):
when I went to raise capital, was I'm going to
fight hard in Washington to change the laws because in
the absence of cosmetic reform and the absence of more
health protective legislation, all Americans are still unnecessarily subjected to
toxic chemicals every day. And for those for whom you know,
the price point is too high, or they don't even
know we exists, or the access isn't there, like, we
need to fight for them as much as we're fighting

(21:38):
for our consumers. And that means that the laws need
to change, and the the FDA needs to be able
to have the power to recall product, and we've got
to start screening chemicals for safety before they go onto
the shelves. And it was the hair product that that
you know there couldn't really be recalled because the FDA
doesn't have the authority. And they've been a couple of examples.
One was the Brazilian blowout that had like from aldehyde,

(21:59):
and it was it was harmful to women getting their
hair straightened, and certainly to women of color where they
were using a lot of straightening agents. But it was
also really harmful to the people working in these salons
that were heating it up and like breathing in formaldehyde
all day long and people were getting sick. I mean
There's also been an example of when hair care they've
had over twenty thousand complaints for hair loss, permanent hair
loss and children and women, and no one's doing anything

(22:22):
about it because there's no legal Uh, it's not illegal.
That's unbelievable, right, um. And so I'm curious similarly to
you know, we're here in California and you see how
a lot of the auto industry is shifting to meet
the California standards. Do you think that there's a state
opportunity if the federal you know, doesn't doesn't seem to
move as fast these days. So we work on both

(22:43):
the state and federal level, and certainly we are very
lucky to be living in the state of California because Props.
Sixty five does really protect consumers in ways that I
don't other zone. I think where where they've come to
a standstill and in actually passing new and improved legislation
has been over who has who has the ultimate right?
Is it state? You know, state Prampton, or you know,
does the federal government govern the decision making and what

(23:05):
is and is not safe for health? And I think
that's where they've come to a standstill. So we fight hard.
You know, we helped pass um in Hawaii a bill
on sunscreen because all of these set chemical sunscreens are
are literally killing the coral reefs. We've been focused on
the Salon Workers Bill in the Fragrance bill, so we're
looking at it. And we also we also fight with
our allies in the space, other beat corps and other

(23:26):
sort of people that are trying to remove toxic chemicals
on things that have nothing to do with us. Toys
for children, toxic chemicals on kids. It's not skincare, cosmetics.
But we believe we can use our voices to move
markets and to helpefully pass legislation, so we do it
all the time. Yeah, that's wild though. It sounds like
it's almost like a constitutional law issue for who gets
to decide like what is healthy and not healthy at
a federal or a state level. Like it sounds like

(23:48):
federal might actually come if the state were to pass
something saying hey, this is banned, Federal might actually say no,
it's not exactly know that. That's why that's the that's
the problem is that I think are you know, my
opinion is that the FDA right now is not equipped
to actually screen the chemicals fast enough, and then the

(24:09):
limits are oftentimes you know, look, we all know there's
a lot of stuff going there's politics and politics, and
I think at the end of the day, you know
who's paying those bills ultimately, who's putting people in office?
And and look, you know, I've learned a lot and
I knew nothing about the whole world of Washington and politics,
but I've learned a lot of it is complicated. It's
not an easy slam dunk for anyone to make the decisions.
And there's either trying to look at all stakeholders. But

(24:31):
I think we could do a better job of protecting
the health of Americans totally. Uh. And I really appreciate
that those are those are pillars that you stand on,
things that are good for the people, things that are
good for the planet. Another another, you know, leadership trait
that I that I took from you know, reading and
learning more about you in the way that you work
is I love that your philosophy of nothing about us

(24:51):
without us. You know, it sounded like that was something
that's always been a part of your model. But when
it comes to diversity or creating products, could you share
a little bit about how you think about build in
your team or you know, building products for people by
including them. You know, it's interesting because I think that
one I think that when you look at your community
at large, at large as a company, you need to
look at how they together can help you solve the

(25:12):
problems of the world. Because you know, I always say like,
I'm just an ordinary woman, but I do extraordinary work
because I work with so many amazing people. And I
think that anyone that thinks that they're not ordinary, they're
kind of kidding themselves, right, We're all relatively ordinary. But
I think in terms of you know, including people in
the process and looking at it, I think one of
the things we've been really trying to focus on is,
you know, the face of this country is changing, you know,
in terms of race and culture and you know, and

(25:35):
you know all the things we all know that that
that that everything is changing very quickly. And I think
one of the things we've really been focused on is,
you know, what can we do to make sure that
we're serving more people and that people can identify with
our brand and that they're part of the solution, and
making sure that when we're creating products. So for example,
if I'm creating a product for a woman is African American?
Is someone on my p D team actually African American

(25:56):
and thinking about it from her lens because I'm white,
and I'm going to be looking at through my lens
and and and really trying to focus on you know,
different ages, different people, different points of view. In our
corporate office is I think, you know, one thing is
I'm really proud of now is like our you know,
if I look at our executive team, like our CFO,
our CEO, and our chief commercial officer all three women
of color, they're all you know, they're women by the way,

(26:16):
go figure you know that and of itself as a
huge accomplishment. But also but I'm also very like, I'm
a very pro women woman, but I do love men.
You know, have a husband, I like him most of
the time. But just in general, like I think we
we do better work when we work together. And I
think when we put all the voices at the table
to serve the needs of today's consumer, that's when you
are successful as a company totally. And I'd love to

(26:37):
touch on that a little bit, just women in leadership,
you know, I I we we it's something we never do,
like a women's CEO panel if it's about a specific
topic and you're the expert. I don't think your gender
has anything to do with the set up in a sense.
I'm very curious though, Like it's twenty nineteen. Um, it
sounds like, you know, a lot has changed since when

(26:58):
you first were out there trying to you know, raise
money for your your your wedding registry company, which is
like a huge marketplace, and you were a first mover.
And for me as a capitalist, I'm like, wow, that's
a very obvious investment to make, But it sounds like
you did have to deal with a lot of you know,
just call it what it is, sexism. Um, what does

(27:19):
it look like for you right now as like a
leader in business and you know, as a woman with
a female lead team, Like, what are the what is
I'm sure that there's some things that you know, I
don't know or understand. Yeah, well, thank god I have
the named Greig because it probably opens more doors. My
parents did that to me. But maybe I should be
thankful for that. I think, you know, look, I don't
think it's changed as much as people realize. I think
that the talk is changing. I do think people are

(27:40):
talking about it. I mean, I think that you know,
the most recent you know, presidential election lit a fire
under the asses of a bunch of women, and so
they got out there and started talking about it. But
I think at the end of the day, you know,
it's still it's interesting. I was just at a at
a girls school, looking at it from my youngest daughter,
and they were stilling the statistics of you know, just
women in all different fields, and not just in sort

(28:04):
of you know, the corporate world, but just across the
board and it's still very much dominated by men. And
what's also been interesting for me is even as the
founder and the CEO, I had a I had a
former colleague I want it doesn't matter who it is,
and you know, he went completely roguemm. He was a
senior executive member of our team. And when he was
in my office, you know, in tears. As I was

(28:24):
letting him go, he's just you know, I said to him,
you know, how do we get here? And he said, well,
you know, honestly, like I thought I was going to
save that sort of save the day, because I I
loaded you as this woman and I thought, you know,
I don't think you had it. I didn't think you
had the chops, And I said, you know what you've
You've done me. Thank you for the gift, because I'll
promise you're never gonna let this happen in my own
company again. But second of all, like you were dumb

(28:45):
enough to take the job with the CEO you didn't
believe in and you were dombin enough not to believe
in me because I was a woman, And shame on
you twice. So I hope you've learned a lot. And
I wasn't even mad at him. I was just like, wow,
this is It's sad, and I do think it's still
happening all the time. And you know, but I think
that I'm hopeful and I'm not an angry feminist. I
believe that we need to join forces with men to

(29:05):
move ourselves forward. And I don't want to be a victim.
I just want to take what it is female, like
what I have as a woman, and make the world better.
And you know, there there are some pros to being
a woman too, you know, and how do you play
their strengths. I think the one thing that is lacking
in women across this country and just probably globally that
that I think prohibits them sometimes from excelling in business
or in fields of engineering or whatever it is. It's

(29:27):
just a lack of confidence. And I think if we
could do one thing for our daughters and for younger
women is to tell me that you've got this, and
it will help them pro fell forward. We owe it
to women to give them more confidence, to let them succeed,
because they certainly have the capability. You're very practical radical,

(29:52):
you know, like it's a very radical idea and you're
taking a very practical means to achieve it. You weren't like, oh,
we're gonna get chemicals out of every buddies stuff that
are you know, that are that are you know, harming us?
And I'm gonna you know, I'm gonna march on Washington
or start a nonprofit or you know think you you know,
things that typically lose money shrink and things that typically

(30:12):
make money grow. And so by having a market based
solution where you're employing tens of thousands of women and
you're you know, like building the products that are replacing
those products with the chemicals in them, if you can't
affect the market demand, I mean, like it is such
an incredible story. Well, I appreciate that's a good that's
a new new term, and I like it, And no,
I think I think you're right. I do think that

(30:33):
oftentimes when there are problems in the world, and certainly
sometimes I think one of the mistakes that nonprofits can
make or activists can make as they approach everything with
anger and shaming and finger pointing, and it doesn't really
get us very far. So I can blame the big conglomerates,
I mean whatever, you know, they made those mistakes along
that they didn't even realize they're making mistakes when they
started creating these products. And it's not easy. The capital

(30:54):
markets are unforgiving. So you know, if I'm if I'm
a large company and I've been making a product for
a hundred years and everyone expects it, you know, to
be exactly that consistently and exactly that colored, texture, scent,
and all of a sudden, I gotta take out half
the ingredients. Well, I can tell you in beauty that's
super complicated. And then you know, God forbid, you lose
a point of you know, a shareholder value that your

(31:15):
stock goes down by one tenth a percent in the
whole world's after you it's it's not easy. So how
do we lead by example? How do we show everyone
that it's possible you can do better? And how do
you bring a huge community of people along with you
for the ride? And that's what we've really been trying
to do all along. And I want to talk about,
you know, where you go from here, but I do
kind of want to double back a little bit. You've
gotten to work with some really amazing women, Martha Stewart,

(31:35):
Jessica alba Um, the Health Figure Family, etcetera. I'm curious,
you know, through these experiences, where there some lessons that
you learned or some are some traits that you picked
up along the way that you apply to the way
that you manage. Yeah, for sure. I mean I do
believe in servant leadership and that is something that I
probably learned from from Martha's. Is she and I differ

(31:55):
there that I don't think in today's market And again,
Martha's you know, a lot older than I and has
done an extraordinary job in many many ways. But I
think the sort of leading with fear or you know,
just sort of my way as the highway doesn't really
work as well in today's marketplace. And I think that
I took that from her because I think, you know,
I lived in fear when I was working for Mark.
I think everyone wanted to please her, but it was

(32:16):
it's difficult to please her, and she's exceptionally talented. UM,
but I think it's it's a management style that today
is is difficult. So I think that's something that I
learned from her, is you know, trying to lead by
example and being the trenches with it. She worked incredibly hearts.
I don't want to imply she wasn't in the trenches
with the troops, but but it was. You know, I've
learned to get better at saying, hey, you know, UM,

(32:38):
I really like that blue shirt. Have you considered making
it in black? As well as opposed to why he
didn't you think about making it in black in the
first place. Like, I've learned to lead that way, and
I think that's something I learned from her through through
my own personal experience. I think I've also UM, I've
also learned that I do best working with people for
whom they that they that they're open to hearing feedback,

(32:59):
and that that I've learned and to be UM desensesized
myself to say it's okay to criticize me and to
learn I learn from it. I recently someone made a
comment about me in our independent consultant network the other
day that I wasn't I wasn't getting what was making
them tick. And instead of instead of getting mad, which
I would would have been a normal thing that I
would have done years ago, and getting really defensive, I

(33:19):
was like, Okay, let's let's lean into that, like how
have I how have I missed you know? How where
do I need to redirect? And I think I've learned
from working with people who everyone around them always says
yes to them, and everyone always tells them that they're right,
that it actually doesn't make you the best leader. I
think the best leaders are those that are committed to
serving those that are beneath them or side by side
with them, however you want to look at it, and
those that are willing to take constructive criticism and to

(33:42):
know where they're strong and to know where they're we
can empower everyone around them knowing that it takes a
village to be successful, and then there is no one
person that's going to make or break anything like it's
it's you're only as strong as you are in your
relationship with your troops, so to speak to them makes sense. Totally. Yeah,
it makes total sense. We we like to say that, uh,
you know, the single singular charismatic leadership is a great
weakness of any organization. No, it's true. And I think

(34:04):
and I think, you know again, I think the entire
organization with Martha was built around her. I think when
I worked with Susie Hillfinger, specifically when I work for
the hill Figgers, you know, I you know, I think
one of the things I was cocky. I came out
of the wedding list and I kind of thought it
was a ship. And I think at the end of
the day, I've learned that I was disrespectful to her
and I ended up getting fired and not really because
I didn't do well. Yeah, I mean I got fired
v a messenger in front of my entire team. That

(34:26):
was that was a humbling moment. If nothing you know,
that doesn't humple you. But you know, at the end
of the day, I think I didn't know how to
manage her. She was a creative person, and I didn't
know how to get the best out of her without
making you know, without making it my way or making
her feel stupid, and now I regret that and I've learned.
I learned a lot. I mean, look, you learned from
every mistake you make, and I've been you know, all
three of those women are extraordinary women doing great work

(34:47):
in the world, and I was. I was so lucky
to have had a chance to work with all of them.
It sounds like, uh, you use emotional vulnerability as a
leadership trade. It sounds like by sharing and being real
about what you're going through, or like being open to
that criticism you allow. So it sounds like you kind
of showcase the type of you know, um perspective that

(35:08):
you're looking for from the people that you work with.
I think that specifically to women on this one. I
think that's a dearth of leadership of women who are
leaders who actually show what their lives are really like.
They always present perfectly polished, They have the perfect outfit on,
their hair is always perfectly like, everything that is perfect perfect.
They're like they're presenting something that is totally inaccessible to women, right,
It's not. It's not possible. And I think when you remember,

(35:30):
years ago, I spoke at a women's conference and I
my assistant at the time, made messed up the time,
and I ended up having to go on stage with
like my hair barely like done, I had no makeup on.
I mean I looked like I was a mess. I
ran across Boston trying to make it to this conference,
but I got on stage and I was like, look,
I'm the only see of beauty company that would ever
show up like this, but I owe I owe it
to you guys because I'm here to stay. And it's
like they went nuts because it was like, oh, you're real, Like,

(35:52):
oh you have a bad day too, Oh you're you know,
you're in a fight with your husband, or you're you know,
you forgot to button your top button of your pants,
Like I can be more like her, And I think
we need to do a better job of showing women that, like,
it's not always pretty every day, and you don't none
of us look perfect, even celebrities look like terrible sometimes.
You know, always say like the supermodel doesn't even look
like herself. But what what we're asking women to be
is not what they are most of the time. Who

(36:13):
they are the photoshop magazine version of all of us. Yeah,
it's just not I mean, that's us, not realistic. I mean,
I have days I think I look pretty cute, and
I have days and I look terrible days and I'm
happy I days and I love my husband. I say,
I love you, but doesn't mean I have to like
you today. And I've I have moments where I've sent
my kids to school and I forgot to put the
lunch food in the lunch box. I mean, that's just life,
you know. And so how do you help people know
that you can be aspirational enough but accessible. I think

(36:35):
that we need those types of leaders more more often
than not. It seems like we're at an all time
low for public rational sense making, and we're constantly being
told opposite sides of the same issues and having to
make sense of which part we think is true for us,
Like sure, these chemicals are bad, how bad are they?
Or you know, yes, you know, I want, you know,

(36:56):
to to use beauty counter products, but I've been using
Bobby Brown for twenty years and it gets me the
look that I want or the field that I want.
So for you, I mean, I imagine you know, over
the last ten years, you've really distilled your messaging and
your storytelling and the way that you communicate why this
is so important to people, UM share that with us, like, well,
how do you how do you think about this? How
do you communicate this to people at this moment in time?

(37:18):
You know, I think that one of the things I
say is in this crazy political environment, in this in
this in this time, when there's so much strife and
there's so much tension, and many people I think feel
out of control, one of the things I suggest them
is that these are areas in which you can actually
take control over your life. So you can control what
you put in your body, you can control what you
put on your body, and these are choices that you

(37:39):
can make. And so one of the things I really
try to talk about is again I'm not here to
shame you, are to scare you. I'm trying to empower
you with information. I'm trying to help you make better
choices on behalf of yourself and your family, and every
little bit makes a difference. So, you know, one of
the things that I think when I'm when I'm talking
about specifically around product is to say, look, you know,
if you really love that whatever Bobby Brown, you know,

(38:02):
and Bobby has been a huge supporter of our so
you know, but you know, if you really love that
mass care that someone makes or whatever, and then keep it.
But like, what are you putting on? What lotion are
you putting on your largest organ all day long? Maybe
maybe change that one thing and you if you can't
afford you know, beauty counter, have you thought about just
taking some organic a coconut oil and using that as
your thing? That will be a lot safer for you
and your family. Or you don't need to bathe your

(38:22):
baby in a bunch of shampoo and stuff. They can
just use water. They don't even need it. I think
it's trying to help people think about that. I also
really try, especially with younger people. I mean I'm talking
much younger people. I try to remind them that every
choice matters. That the choices you make, you're voting with
your voice, you're voting with your wallet. You can take
control and these things add up to your life, but
they also really make a difference. So what carton of

(38:43):
milk did you buy? Did you buy? You know, did
you make your lmond milk at home? Did you go
buy you know, cowsmic? Like what what what are those choices?
And what does that say about you? And what you
believe in I've you know, I've sworn off fast fashion
and this has been really hard for me. Like, there
are companies out there that make a lot of really
cute clothes on I love clothes that are super cheap,
but like when I learned about what Fast Best Fashion
was doing to the environment and the health of people,

(39:04):
I was like, look, I can I can take that stand.
So and again that's where I'm not voting with my wallets.
So I probably didn't clearly, I'm probably not articulating it
in a succinct way. But I think it's helping people
know that the choices that they make matter, that their
voice matters, that their voting matters, that their wallets matter,
and making it about little to your point on the
Mexican President, it's it's taking an example as simple as

(39:26):
an electrical and helping people understand that I don't have
to change the world today. Every little bit makes a difference,
and they it starts to lead them to a better place.
Thank you for that. I love that. Um well, and
I'm curious, you know, for you you're such a modern woman.
You have the family, and you know, you have the
husband who you love and like most of the time
sounds like my wife, um and and you and you

(39:49):
clearly run this organization. You have all these people that
are counting on you. And do you have practices? Do
you meditate? Do do yoga? Do you run? Do you read?
What are the things that you do to help yourself
stay present and relaxed and operating at your high self.
So I think one thing that I, um, I do
believe is really true, and I say this often, but
is that I do believe you can have it all.

(40:10):
But that doesn't necessarily mean you can have it all
on the same day. And so I think one of
the things that puts a lot of pressure on us
as women and men today is you have to be
superman or superwoman every single day. You have to be
the perfect spouse, you have to be the perfect partner,
you have to be the perfect parent, you have to
be an incredible CEO or employee or whatever. And that's
just not realistic. So I think when I take the
pressure off their days and I'm really leaning into family

(40:30):
in their days, that I'm really leaning into business and
I'm and I can have those conversations with my children
to say, hey, you know what I'm gonna gone this week.
But what I'm doing is important to me, and I
love it, and it's important for the world. And I'm
proud of you. And let's face time tonight. And they've
learned that rhythm is learned. I've learned to work with that.
I mean, I think my social life is waning a
little bit right now, but but I have real friends
and they'll be there in a couple of years when
I come out on the other end of this. I

(40:51):
always take a bath. And when we were going through
our draught, I was literally doing like two inches of water.
But somehow that calms me down. I can breathe. I
literally closed the door, and it's just like I've missed
myself of soaking in a bath. I think that's really important. Um.
I really do try to get a good night's sleep,
because it is someone said to me a long time
ago that if you're going to try to create this
movement and lead this movement, you're going to think about
yourself as an Olympic athlete and take care of your body.

(41:14):
So I eat really clean, I exercise often. I'm not
great at meditating, but I am very good at breathing.
So I guess that's a form of meditation. I've I've
I feel like I'm still distracted and I try to
get better with a meditation practice. But I would be
lying if I said I'm really it's consistent. Um. And
then I learned, you know, I also just have fun
and like blasting the tunes and laughing with my kids,
and like taking those small moments that I think sometimes

(41:35):
we forget, like just to have, you know, those moments
where you're you know, you're having fun, Like I love
to listen to music, I love to read, I love
to like binge, watch you know whatever things on Netflix,
and I take those moments that are luxuries that and again,
I think if you're not putting in your pressure yourself
to be perfect every single day, then those maybe you
stay up late watching a movie one night and the
next night you're snuggling with your kids, but you you

(41:56):
give yourself that space to to not be perfect all
the time. And and what's next for beauty Counter? Where
are you going from here? You know, I think that
we've really pioneered and lead as we talked about the
clean beauty movement. I think, now you know what what
is beyond clean look like for us? I think we've
really we're looking at, Okay, how do we define opportunity
in a new way beyond just opportunity for independent consultants,
but opportunity for the marketplace. We're looking at sustainability more holistically.

(42:19):
We're a B corpse, so we look at triple bottom
line people, planet profit, but how do we actually attack
the supply chain. So, for example, we just announced our
whole Mica initiative. You know, we were the first beauty
brand in forty years to actually go to Indian Japan
to actually visit the actual minds and how do we
create systemic change. So you know, we've just partnered with
a foundation that's run run out of India UM, which

(42:42):
is really looking at how to not take the jobs
away from people because they need the income, but how
do you do it differently and not just putting a
band aid on by saying we're going to use synthetic mica,
Like how do we actually fix things? So I think
you're going to see us UM sort of roaring a
little bit louder, looking at how we attack on these
bigger issues and how do we help other companies join us,

(43:03):
not just in the beauty industry, but for example, and mica,
like electronics and motor cars, these are all things that
are using mica. How do we get child labor out
of that but still create the economic opportunities for people
in countries like India and China and Japan. And that's
something that I think you're going to see us doing
is looking more holistically at the beauty industry and and
looking at how we can actually affect change up and
down supply chain and throughout the work that we do

(43:25):
incredible well, I think that you know, uh, we're really
lucky when we get to focus on things that our
kids are going to be proud of us for. And
you know, I do see this as something that is
definitely on the right side of history. And uh, you know,
modern life has a lot of you know, wonderful benefits.
You know. Um, the reason why you know, we drink

(43:48):
water that has all been treated is because there used
to be nasty stuff in our water. But now we're
missing our microbiome, right like, because we drink a bunch
of dead microbes versus live microbes like every other animal
on the planet. And so I think that there's this
real renaissance happening now. Um in you know, people taking
better care of themselves by incorporating both the best of

(44:10):
modernity and you know, the true nature of our nature
right that we are, you know, connected to this earth,
and there are certain things that are unhealthy for us.
And it's not like rocket science here that you're you know,
you're like, hey, this known chemical is probably not something
that you want to put into your skin or into
your body. But I just wanted to thank you. I really,
I really appreciate the work that you're doing, and you know,

(44:30):
I hope that you know, we can help in every way,
shape and form, you know, get this message out there
to more more people. Well, I really appreciate you saying that,
and you're absolutely right that you know, we we I
had an argue with my son on pringles last night.
Was like, dude, like, what's in the pring goal It's
not actually food? This is actually food is they're actually
a potato in the potato shop of your eating. And
I think that you know, helping people, you know, we've

(44:50):
done so much in the name of sort of convenience
and whatever, but the reality is like we need to
go back to the basics. And you're right, we need
to have more exposure to bacteria in germs and things.
Those things make us wronger and um and I think,
you know, I always say to my kids that I
know you missed me sometimes. I know it's hard. My
youngest daughter really has a hard time with what I'm doing,
but I said, she said one time, I was I'm embarrassed,

(45:11):
mommy that you're not a pick up every day. And
I said, you know, Georgia, you can be sad that
I'm not there. I fully acknowledge that, but don't be
embarrassed with for what I'm doing, because I'm fighting hard
for you and for all your friends to have a safer,
better world. And I'm proud of that work. And it's
it's not it's it's it's imperfect. But I think we
need to fight for what we believe, and we need
to fight for future generations and for ourselves. Is not
just about the future generations, like we need it too.

(45:33):
I don't want to hear about people getting sick. And
I think to the extent that we can all you know,
move our you know, the efforts together before it in
a combined way, I think that the world will just
be a much better place for all of us. Well,
thank you. I really appreciate it. Thanks for having me. Yeah,
of course, it's such a pleasure. Okay, thank you, thank you, Greg.
That was a wonderful interview, and she's building a wonderful company,

(45:56):
and as is customaryan out of the hustle, we take
a couple of pull quotes of wisdom from our interviewees
that you know, really inspired me. You know, one one
thing I will speak to first and foremost is I
do think that that Greg is a total practical radical
consumer brands do move minds faster than legislation, and we
do also need laws to be changed to protect consumers.

(46:17):
But if you can change consumer sentiment, that typically proceeds
legislative change. So I love that, you know, Greg is
a total true believer and is approaching this from a
market based solution. I also love that she's a real
servant leader, you know, like it comes across it's a
very hard thing to fake. You know, it's a nice buzzword,
but if you have a big ego, or if you're

(46:38):
like the singular genius that is responsible for all the
success of the organization, that's clearly not her. Like she's awesome,
She's a very great leader. So she's a great leader
because it sounds like she empowers the people around her.
And then I love that she you know, thinks about
every little choice mattering and so you don't build rome
in a day, you know, like you you know, make
these small decisions like taking your shoes off at the

(46:58):
door and then actually lowers our body toxicity. I didn't
really think about that and that that had that big
of an impact. But ultimately, I mean it's just the
idea that you know, all of these little decisions build
up into the big thing that's happening to us in
our life. Whether it's our health, whether it's our work,
whether it's our relationships. You know, all these things are cumulative. Um,
it's all about the process that ends up creating the results.

(47:20):
So UM, thank you for listening, Thank you Greg for
being here. This is the art of the hustle. I'm
Jeff Rosenthall and we'll see you next time. Thanks