March 13, 2019 • 33 mins
Is there a way to get a micromanaging boss to back off? Maybe.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I get my
assistants at people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep
taking credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi,
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where
I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
perfume to what to do if you drink too much
(00:23):
at the company party. Let's get started today. We are
going to talk about micro managers. When you look at
all the different categories of bad management, micromanagement, a boss
who hovers and is just way too involved in your
work is one of the most common categories. And what's more,
a lot of bosses who micromanage do this confusing thing
(00:46):
where sometimes they're really really hands off, and then suddenly
they swoop in and they're really hands on. And that
is the situation that today's color is in. Hi, and
welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me.
So you sent me a letter saying you've been at
your job a little less than a year and overall
you really like it, but there is a problem. Your
(01:09):
boss is a very respected person in your field, but
you're only the second person he's ever managed, and it
kind of shows. Sometimes you will go long stretches with
no interaction with him, but when he is stressed about
a big project or something important, he micro manages you
big time, and he does it in a way that
makes you feel like he thinks you're not competent. You
(01:32):
wrote in your letter to me that he'll explain your
own work back to you, even when you've been spending
days working on it. And on a recent project, he
was checking in on your progress literally every fifteen to
thirty minutes, doing this thing where he was finding mistakes
in real time and correcting them before you had even
had a chance to look over your work. And those
were cases where you would have found those mistakes yourself
(01:55):
if he had just stepped back and given you some room.
And you wrote that it's gotten so bad that it
aims you have been ending the day crying. Am I
getting all that right? Yeah? That's it was very specific
to that project that I was working on, but I
started to get the impression that this is a trend
that I should begin addressing. Yeah, And I also want
(02:15):
to note that you said that you know you're a
good employee, and he actually poached you from your old
job to come work for him, so you know that
he likes your work. It's not a case where he's
covering because your work is bad. Right. I think that's
an accurate description, And I would even go as far
to say as like we are friends. And that's one
of the reasons that I'm so adamant about trying to
figure out how to address this properly, is because I
(02:38):
like the way that we work together, and I think
we have a really good working relationship and I don't
want to damage that by saying the wrong things or
critiquing the way that he manages me. Tell me more
about that. What is your relationship like with him? So
we professionally have like known of each other for some time.
(02:58):
We work in a some small industry, so everyone kind
of knows each other, so to speak. And I've always
had a lot of respect for him, And have you
know when I was looking to move jobs, his was
a name that I knew and was honestly very flattered
when I got the email because I was I was
shocked that I did not expect expect him to know
(03:19):
who I was. I'm a junior level staffer and he's
more of a senior level management person in our field,
and we have we work very well together. Um our
current situation is, uh, we are remote, so he isn't
always in the office with me at the same times,
and so I think that also plays a role in
(03:40):
that hands off aspect where I will go a very
long time without talking to him. But because it's when
he's actually in the office that the micro managing picks up.
And how comfortable do you feel with him? It sounds
like you have a pretty good rapport. Yeah, very comfortable.
We talk about, you know, very personal things he you know,
(04:01):
recently his mom passed away, and that's definitely become a
consideration for me as I think about how to have
a conversation with him about this micromanagement style that he has,
because I he is such an empathetic boss in terms
of things that I've experienced personally, and then I've tried
(04:21):
very hard to be him be there for him in
this time and so you know, we share personal effects
with each other because I think he just wants to
foster that kind of open relationship with the people that
he works with, both a co workers and people he manages. Yeah,
I think his mom dying definitely changes the calculation and
(04:42):
when you might address it with him that while that
is still really fresh, let's not give him another thing
that's stressful to put on his plate. But I do
think a couple of months down the road, it's definitely
something that you can bring up that you do want
to be sensitive to that timing, of course. Okay, I
want to talk about micro management generally, and then I
(05:03):
want to get into some specific advice on what you
might do here. So I think the first thing to
talk about is what micro management means, because people use
it to describe a whole bunch of different things. It
is not just being involved in your work, because good
managers do stay involved in things like getting aligned on
what outcomes you're going for, and checking in on progress
(05:26):
as work is progressing, and giving feedback and sometimes course
correcting when it's needed. That's all good managers should be
doing that stuff. Micro management, though, is when a manager
is dictating exactly how to do the work, watching over
every step in the process, refusing to delegate any real
decision making, and constantly well I should say and or
(05:50):
and or constantly checking up on work that you have
shown in the past that you can do well. And
micro managers will often manage really low importance projects the
same way that they will manage high importance projects. They
don't always differentiate in their approach based on what's actually needed.
And I think there are a few reasons why people
(06:12):
micro manage. The big one, and I think it is
true of every micro manager, is that they genuinely do
not know a better way. They don't actually know how
to manage when they've delegated work, but they're responsible for
ensuring that it's done and that it's done well, and
so they swoop in with this terrible style because they
(06:33):
don't have different tools and this is the only way
they can think of to make sure that things get
done well. I do that there can be more to
it too. I mean, of course, for a lot of
micro managers, it's rooted in control. You know, they don't
trust their staff to do good work without constant supervision. Again, though,
that's not knowing how to manage, because if you're managing effectively,
(06:55):
that's not really something you need to worry about, because
you do have systems for making sure that everyone is
aligned about the work at the outset. You have set
checkpoints along the way where you check in on progress
so there won't be any surprises. But again, micro managers
don't know how to do that. Now, sometimes people complain
that they're being micromanaged, when what is really happening is
(07:16):
that they've given their boss good cause to doubt the
reliability of their work. That does not sound like the
case here. I'm just covering this for the sake of
being being thorough. I don't think this what's happening with you.
But sometimes a manager will start managing more closely because
the person has shown that they need it, And then
you get people complaining about being micro managed when really
their manager is managing appropriately for the situation. So in general,
(07:40):
if someone is feeling micromanaged, it's always good to do
a gut check, you know, ask yourself, is there anything
I've done that could be leading to this, Like have
I been missing deadlines or letting things fall through the cracks,
or you know, not incorporating my boss's feedback into my
work that kind of thing. And actually, let me pause
here and ask I don't and I'll get this, get
(08:01):
the sense of that is the situation. But let's make
sure does that stuff sound like what could be happening here? No,
I don't get that impression either, And I ask a
lot of questions in my that's my work style. I
just I ask a lot of questions. And I think
the problem, one of the big problems that I have noticed,
is sometimes he misinterprets questions as ignorance. And oftentimes it's
(08:24):
a fact finding mission for me, not a let's explain
to her or the A B c's of this process. Uh,
And that's what I meant by explaining my own work
back to me. It's oftentimes I'll have spent days on
a project and he knows that I've spent days on
this project, and I'll ask just a clarifying question and
(08:45):
find that his response involves all a lot of the
work that I've already done, and if he just, you know,
had had had read that or seen that, he just
jumps to the conclusion that I don't know what I'm
doing at times. And I don't think that's because is
he doesn't think I know what I'm doing. It's because
he's been the leading expert in this field for so long,
and I don't think he thinks anyone knows what they're doing. Yeah,
(09:08):
I don't think it's a personal thing. Sometimes not always.
Sometimes with that dynamic, you can kind of head it
off by saying to yourself, Okay, I know that he
has this tendency. If I just ask the question with
no caveat and no prelude, I'm going to get this
whole long explanation that I don't need. And so I'm
gonna preface it with I have X, Y, and Z
(09:29):
totally covered and I'm fine there, but I have a
question for you about this one piece of it, and
then ask your question so that you're sort of framing
it for him in a very explicit way. Do you
think something like that could help I do. I think
that's I think about that a lot in terms of
conversations going forward. But it's almost hard in the slack
(09:50):
I am generation, where like oftentimes I'm asking what I
think is a thirty second question, but the nature of
how we just shoot off quick questions over instant messaging,
it's sometimes when I think is a thirty second question,
he thinks it's. It's almost a generational thing. I'm not
sure if that makes any sense, but I'm like, this
is a this five second this five word question will
(10:13):
be answered in no time, but he wants to write
a small paragraph about it. Yes, So I mean it
might be that you just do an experiment here and
try the framing that I'm talking about a couple of
times and see it, like, be very deliberate about making
yourself to it, even when you are thinking, this is
just a quick question, and see what happens, see if
it works. Because if it does work, great, Now you
(10:33):
know that that you just have to be really really
explicit about what you do and don't need um. But
it could be an interesting experiment to try. Yeah, I've
never thought about doing it that way. I never give
set up because I you know, he gives me projects
to work on, so I assume he knows what I'm
working on. So sometimes I kind of just jump into
the meat of it without taking a step back to
(10:54):
be like, if I don't provide some context, I'm going
to get that paragraph explanation I'm dreading. Yeah, and you know,
it could also be like, yeah, he knows what you're
working on, Cassie assigned it to you, but it might
not be at the top of his mind at that
very moment, you know, especially if you're doing it over
I am or something. He's absorbed in something else. You're
asking him this question. He's not necessarily pausing to think, Oh,
(11:15):
of course, she's been like deep in the stuff for
the last few days. I don't need to give her
this background. He might not even be making that connection
in his head. Yeah, I never I never thought about
it that way. That's a great point. I mean, I
could be wrong, and you could try this and it
might not work, but I think it's worth trying and
seeing what happens. Let's do a short break here, and
then I want to come back and talk about micro
(11:35):
management some more and then get into what to do
from here. Another thing I wanted to note about micro
managers is that in general, this pattern that you are
seeing with your boss, where he switches from really hands
(11:56):
off to way too hands on, is really common. And
what tends to happen is that a manager starts off
pretty hands off, give someone a lot of leeway to
run with a project, and then maybe it doesn't go
according to plan because the manager didn't set clear enough
expectations at the start, So then they vow that they're
going to be involved much more closely next time. I
(12:18):
don't know that that's what's happening here for you. It
sounds like it could be like there's a little bit
of out of sight, out of mind going on when
he's not in the office, and it sounds like maybe
when something is a stressor to him, if he gets
more involved, then so I think that is maybe not
the explanation in your situation, but it is a really
common one. Yeah, I do think that is partially the situation,
(12:40):
especially for my example that I had given him my
initial um letter to you because we were working under
a really tight deadline. So he had given me a
project that with a forty eight hour deadline. But when
I started working on it, I realized pretty quickly, no,
this is forty eight hours worth of work, but he
needs me to get done in forty eight hours, So
(13:01):
you know, I pulled close to all nighters, and then
on the second on the third day when it was due,
he became very stressed that it wasn't done. But the
reality was I didn't feel like I was given enough
time to begin with to do the project. And so
then suddenly he started stepping in all the time being like,
do you have this, do you have this? Do you
have this on repeat every fifteen to thirty minutes, which
(13:23):
are valid questions, but I don't know if they would
have been the case if he had said a realistic timeline. Ah, yep,
so it normally I don't feel like what you're describing
as the case, but I have seen that and I
think it can be a little bit of both from
my situation. Yeah, so it might be that there are
things that you can do in your end to head
some of this off at the start, Like so if
(13:44):
we could go back in time, which sadly we cannot
too when he was first giving you that project, if
you knew at the start this is a really tight deadline,
and it sounds like you did know that you might
do some expectations setting with him, and maybe you did,
but if you didn't, it could be useful to say. So,
I want to let you know, I think this is
a really tight deadline. Um, I can put in a
(14:05):
lot of extra hours and try to make it work,
but it does mean that it's going to be kind
of a rush, and then you might spell out for
him what that means, like if you think about the
sorts of things that he was concerned with on the
last day. If you're able to kind of prep him
for that being the case ahead of time, it might
help manage his expectations. Yeah. I try really hard to
do stuff like that, but it work. Creep is such
(14:27):
a problem. Yeah, the projects looked like a two day
project until I actually got into the weeds and realized
that the actual expectations of each of the components were
going to take so much time. But you're right, I
did figure that out probably within the first two to
three hours of work, and I should have taken a
step back and said something, but I am such a
(14:48):
I consider myself a very deadline driven person and really
want to make them and so it was respond appropriately.
I have that same problem too. I completely understand what
you're saying. There is benefit to it, so I think, like, again,
you might just try experimenting with it if you're in
a similar situation in the future, and just see if
it does make it better, because if it does, that's
(15:09):
going to kind of reinforce in your head, like, oh,
I should speak up about this again when it happens. Now.
Big picture, I mean, we can talk about these strategies
forgetting it, small pieces of those, but big picture, I
think at some point you do want to try talking
to your boss about this style that he gets. Sometimes,
before I get into how you might do that, have
(15:31):
you tried doing that yet at all? Not really, And
I think a lot of it is because we have
such a good working relationship that I'm afraid to speak up.
I'm afraid that I'm going to ruin our relationship or
by even And I don't know. This has nothing to
do with micro managing specifically. It just has to do
with like employee boss relationships, Like I'm always nervous to
(15:53):
critique my boss because I think there are a lot
of bosses out there that will take it poorly. Yeah,
and I've had experience and some previous jobs we're speaking
up had had an impact on my work there and
my time there. Frankly, I don't think that's this is
the case. I think that we he wants me to
stay and has no interest in finding a way to
get me fired, especially because he's the one that brought
(16:16):
me over. But I'm still nervous about bringing it up,
and I don't know how to not be nervous. I
think you will be nervous. I think I don't wait
until you can find a way to not be nervous
as a sign that like a ha, now it's the
time for me to speak up, because he will probably
always be nervous. It is an inherently nerve wracking thing
to do, especially the first time you're doing it with
a particular manager, because you haven't seen yet firsthand how
(16:40):
they react to that kind of thing. So I would say,
you're probably going to be nervous. Don't let that be
a reason to not do it. I absolutely hear you
on some boss is reacting really badly to people bringing
up issues in their working relationships. You've got to know
your boss. I mean, if you look at him and
you think, okay, he's always been pretty reasonable with me, like, yes,
we have some differences, but in general he is like
(17:04):
a rational person who doesn't shoot the messenger, who doesn't
get really defensive when he hears something that he doesn't like.
Those are signs that you can probably have the conversation.
If you were telling me, oh, no, actually he's super
defensive and kind of a mean guy, then then I
would not be recommending the conversation that I'm about to have.
But it sounds like you respect him and you have
(17:25):
pretty good rapport. Yeah, I think that's that is. I
don't think I know that is an accurate characterization. Okay,
So I'm going to tell you how I would say it.
And this isn't going to be precisely right because I
don't have the details, but I'm going to give you
kind of generally how I would frame it. I would
sit down with him and say something like I was
(17:45):
hoping we could talk about something I've noticed about how
we're working together. A lot of the time, you give
me a lot of autonomy, which I really appreciate, but
I have noticed that on some projects you'll manage my
work so closely that it can be hard for me
to even complete my portion of it. For example, on
the X project recently, you are checking into my work
so frequently that you were finding mistakes in real time
(18:07):
before I had had a chance to review it. And
that meant that you thought I was making mistakes that
would never have been in the finished work that I
turned into you, except that you kept coming back to
look at it while it was still in progress. And
it was pretty demoralizing because I wasn't having a chance
to perfect it before you saw it. And then I
know I'm harping on at one example that you gave
me because I was so I was so egregious. So
(18:27):
maybe give another example or two here of times when
it has happened, and then say, when that happens, it
makes me feel like you don't think I'm competent. And
I do think that I have a track record of
good performance and attention to detail and asking questions when
I need to, and so it can be tough to
be managed in a way that makes me feel like
you don't see me as capable. And I want to
(18:49):
be clear that I absolutely welcome guidance and feedback, but
I wonder if there is a way to structure how
that happens so that I'm still trusted to get my
work done without that kind of really close over say,
or is there a reason that you don't feel like
you can trust me without such a close oversight? And
then see what he says, but at some point in
(19:09):
the conversation, you're going to need to propose, well, actually,
let me pause there before I go into this next piece.
Deep does that feel like something you could imagine saying
it does? And I don't think he would react negatively
to the feedback like that uh. In fact, I can
already kind of sense that he will say something along
the lines of improving our communications in general, and I
(19:31):
think some of that is so tough by having a
boss that's remote currently and then sometimes in the office,
like the dynamics of how we communicate inherently shift. Uh.
And it's hard to find a standardization around that. But
I think that would be a very reasonable way for
me to approach it with him, and I don't think
that he would react negatively to that. And I think
(19:52):
I really think it's a stress like he tries to
carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, which
is very admirable, but I sometimes don't oh as an employee,
like I want to help I want to help him
be not as stressed, But if he's projecting that stress
back onto me, then it's just creating this weird, unhealthy dynamic. Yes, absolutely, well,
(20:13):
I like that you think you could have that conversation
and it would go okay. I want to point out
the tone that I was using for that, because it's
not like a complaining tone. It's a tone of like, hey,
I want to fix this, Like I see this problem.
I feel like you and I can do better. Can
we talk about how to make that happen. So it's
not like I'm just venting to you I hate that
(20:35):
you might remanage me. It's more positive than that, and
I think that helps. Let's take a quick break and
we'll be right back to talk about this some more. Now,
at some point in this conversation, I would try proposing
(20:56):
a specific alternative, Like I wouldn't just say it and
then wait for him to figure out how to solve it,
because there's a very good chance that he won't know
how to solve it, Like if this is just sort
of the way that he knows how to manage, he
might not have anything specific to think of to do instead.
So I would say, you need to be the one
to say, could we try blank instead, and let's talk
(21:20):
about what blank could be. So to a large extent,
it depends on the details of what it is that
he's trying to to not or that you are trying
to get him to stop micro managing. But often for
micro managers, the thing that they really want is a
way to stay engaged enough that they know that the
work is happening on schedule, that it's progressing the way
(21:41):
that it should that there aren't going to be any
awful surprises down the road, like discovering that the work
that you've done is totally different from what he needed,
or you miss some key deadline, or you didn't do
it at all, or whatever it is that they have
a fear of in their head. So what you've got
to do is propose a different system that still gives
them those things that lets the person stay engaged enough
(22:03):
that he does know that things are progressing the way
they should, and where he also knows that he will
have a chance to give input or change direction if
he needs to before it's too late, because that's usually
what micromanagers want, that's what all managers want. Micro managers
are just going about it the wrong way. So there
is a way to get him that that does not
require him hovering over you. Now, usually it would be
(22:26):
something like regular status updates and regular check ins, which
are a lot less annoying if they're scheduled out ahead
of time and you both know when they're going to happen,
rather than him like swooping in and asking to check
in like every hour. So if it's a longer term project,
you could say something like what I propose is that
(22:46):
I send you data weekly or whatever time frame makes sense,
so that you can see how the work is progressing.
And then we could sit down and touch base for
like half an hour every Thursday afternoon or whatever, so
that I can update you about where we are and
you can look over what I've done so far and
get feedback. And then we can also talk really in
depth at the start of the project so that we
can both make sure we're on the same page, like
(23:07):
that I know exactly what's in your head about what
you're looking for, and you know that I know that,
so that you can have confidence about the way I'm
moving forward. For something shorter term, it's trickier. I mean,
if it's something that's going to get done in a
day or two, you're not really going to have progress meetings.
That would be silly. So in that case, you would
really lean into the part about getting aligned at the start,
(23:28):
like really making sure that you know what is in
his head, what it should and shouldn't look like, what
he worries, the pitfalls are, and so forth. Does that
make sense? It does I, and I then definitely like
the idea of check ins on progress. I think one
tough thing for the organization that I work for is
(23:49):
we are very Google Doc, Google Excel, whatever that equivalent is,
Google sheet, That's what it is, Google sheet reliant, And
so he can just lurk on the Google Doc as
I work, and that that is where a lot of
that came came in. On the specific project. He would
just be watching me working in real time because I'm
typing things into this Google Doc, and other than telling
(24:12):
him to stop, which is absurd, I don't know how
to reinforce to him that a weekly check in is
going to be good enough when he can just watch
me do work. Is that that sounds horrible? Do you
have to do it in a Google Doc that he
has access to? Um? Not really, It's just it's the
way the company has always worked, where we have hundreds
of unnecessary Google Docs for all of the work that
(24:35):
we do. UM. And so any project, once a new
once a new piece of it starts, is a new
Google Doc or Google Sheet is created for tracking the
information on the progress and all of that jazz. So
I feel that it would be slightly passive aggressive if
I said I'm going to do this and Excel and
then upload it later, because that would be such a
(24:57):
character shift for both myself and the organization that I
think it would be easy for him to sense that
something is awry. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you can't
just because I was originally thinking just change it, just
stopped doing that. But it sounds like you can't do
that without saying something about it without it seeming weird.
But I think it's worth saying something about um. I mean,
(25:18):
I might say, Hey, the fact that you were able
to go into the Google doc while I was working
and see what I was doing in real time and
spot what looked to you like mistakes but really weren't
because I wasn't finished with it made it a lot
more stressful for both of us. So when there's a
project like that in the future, I might not do
it in the Google doc while it's still ongoing. I
might upload it later and just let him know. But
(25:39):
I think with someone who has these tendencies, don't put
temptation in his way. Okay, but I agree you have
to address it and explain why so that doesn't look shady.
The other thing, too, I think, is with all of
this stuff, if he seems resistant or like he can't
really figure out another way to do it he would
feel comfortable with. One thing is you can try asking
(26:02):
if he would do a short term experiment with you,
like pick one project, one where you know that normally
he would be nervous and kind of micromanaging about it,
and ask if you can experiment with with managing it
in a different way so that you can both see
whether it goes better or not. And I mean you
could even do that with the Google doc things, say hey,
can we try it this way and just see how
it goes, because that is actually much easier for a
(26:24):
nervous micromanager to agree to, or any manager really, because
you're not asking him for permanent change. You're just saying,
let's try this one limited time project. We'll see how
it goes. If it's a disaster, which it probably won't be,
then fine. But if it goes okay, which it probably will,
that can make it easier to be comfortable trying it
with more things. I'm a big fan actually of proposing
(26:47):
stuff as a short term experiment when you can see
that your boss is kind of reluctant, because it's so
much easier to get a yes to that. Yeah, I
think that's I'm definitely willing to do that, And I
also think the timing works out really about we're actually
bringing on another member of our team, so we're kind
of in that natural state right now where we can
(27:08):
hit reset because it's no longer I'm the only one
currently being managed. It's not going to be a team
of two, so expectation settings are going to shift regardless.
So I feel like it would wouldn't it wouldn't even
be out of the question to hit to hit reset
and not having suspect almost like having the conversation without
having the conversation. Not that I don't want to have
(27:28):
the conversation, um, but I especially in the next couple
of months, because I'm still very cognizant of all the
personal things that have been going on for him. Figuring
out a way to try to create little shifts without
having this big conversation is kind of is helpful for me.
Good good. I think if you do want to try
talking to him directly, one other thing that you can
(27:51):
do is you can even ask directly, like, are there
things that you would want to see from me that
would make you feel comfortable giving me more autonomy and
situations like X and y because who knows, I mean,
maybe you'll actually hear something like, yeah, I need you
to be more consistent about X, or let's get you
more training on why or I mean, who knows. Maybe
maybe he'll be stumped by that question and the answer
(28:12):
is nothing, But it can be an interesting question to ask.
And if the answer is nothing, sometimes I can kind
of nudge a manager into realizing like, oh, I do
need to kind of loosen up on the reins here. Yeah, no,
I I agree. I'm the one thing I definitely want
to bring up, UM because I do think it's relevant.
Is I have my performance review next week, so much
(28:35):
of what we're discussing right now I want to talk
about and I feel like that's almost the perfect setting,
But I know it's too soon, and so I'm kind
of trying to think through in the next week or so,
talking to you and thinking about changes I want to make.
How do I have like the light version during my
performance review UM without overwhelming him? Yeah, the performance review
(28:59):
is such a perfect time to have this conversation. But
I agree with you with it with his mom having
just very recently died, I don't think you have to
avoid it entirely. Especially in the context of a performance
review or you're already you're already talking about how well
you work together. I don't it's interesting. If you weren't
having a performance review, I would say, yes, give him
(29:20):
some space. He's got enough on his plate. If you're
having the performance review, I think you can bring up
a fair amount of this as long as you're doing
it in like a positive way, like, hey, here's some
stuff that I've noticed. I think there's ways that we
could work better. Here what my thoughts are as opposed
to like I'm so frustrated. It's the I'm so frustrated
(29:40):
conversation that I would hold off on in the wake
of a parents death. But if it really is just
more like here's some here's some stuff about our working relationship,
I think there's room for that. OKU, go with go
with your gut on this, because you know him and
you know the dynamic and so forth. But but I
don't think it's a hard no because it would be
(30:01):
in the context of your performance review. But if you
don't do it, you can absolutely wait a month or
two and still bring it up, Like, don't feel like,
oh the you lost your window of opportunity and now
it's closed, you can you can just bring it up
as its own separate thing. Okay. Now, I do want
to be clear that no matter what you try, it
might end up being very hard to change the way
that your boss is about this. It's still worth trying,
(30:24):
and it's still worth at some point having that explicit
conversation because it has made you so unhappy. And the
nice thing about this is if you do have the
conversation and nothing changes, now you know that nothing is
likely to change. And I know that sounds very depressing,
but actually it can be very empowering to know. Okay,
I took the steps that were within my control to
(30:46):
try to change this. I learned that there isn't anything
I can do on my end that will change it.
And now I can figure out what I want to
do knowing that this is the situation, and that sometimes
means deciding Okay, I don't love this, but I like
enough other things about my job here that I will
find a way to be okay with this, And at
least I don't have to beat my head against the
while trying to change it, because I've already tried and
(31:08):
I know that it's not changing. Or sometimes it means deciding,
you know, I can deal with this for a year
or so, but after that I'm probably going to start
looking for a different job. Or sometimes it means deciding,
you know, hell no, I don't want to deal with
more of this, And now that I know it's not changing,
I'm really gonna work and getting out. But it makes
your options so much clearer once you've had the conversation
(31:30):
and and so you know what will and won't change. Yeah,
I hope that's not depressing. No, it's not at all.
And I know that that's a reality. And he has
mentioned that he wants to kind of hit reset with
this performance review. So that's why I didn't want to
push back on the few months timeline, but I didn't
(31:51):
want to miss a great opportunity. Yeah, I think you
could do it. I don't think it's an absolute no
go Okay. So does that help? Yeah? It does. And
I feel that I just need to do some you know,
internal soul searching from what that tone is going to be,
because I think at the end of the day, tone
is going to be the make or break um piece
(32:12):
of the conversation. Totally agree, absolutely, um. And again I
think the tone is I like you? I like working here.
Here's this thing that I've noticed that where I think
we could be more effective and can we just kind
of problem solve with us together. Well, thank you so
much for coming on the show, Thank you for having me,
(32:33):
Thanks for listening to the Asking Manager Podcast. If you'd
like to come on the show to talk through your
own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org,
or you can leave a recording of your question by
calling eight five five T six work. That's eight five
five F T six nine seven five. You can get
more ask a Manager at ask a Manager dot org
or in my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate
(32:53):
clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your
life at work. The Ask a Manager Show is a
partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Deckett.
If you liked what you heard, please take a minute
to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be
back next week with another one of your questions. M
My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything I get my
assistants at people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep
taking credit for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi,
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager podcast, where
I answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
perfume to what to do if you drink too much
(00:23):
at the company party. Let's get started today. We are
going to talk about micro managers. When you look at
all the different categories of bad management, micromanagement, a boss
who hovers and is just way too involved in your
work is one of the most common categories. And what's more,
a lot of bosses who micromanage do this confusing thing
(00:46):
where sometimes they're really really hands off, and then suddenly
they swoop in and they're really hands on. And that
is the situation that today's color is in. Hi, and
welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me.
So you sent me a letter saying you've been at
your job a little less than a year and overall
you really like it, but there is a problem. Your
(01:09):
boss is a very respected person in your field, but
you're only the second person he's ever managed, and it
kind of shows. Sometimes you will go long stretches with
no interaction with him, but when he is stressed about
a big project or something important, he micro manages you
big time, and he does it in a way that
makes you feel like he thinks you're not competent. You
(01:32):
wrote in your letter to me that he'll explain your
own work back to you, even when you've been spending
days working on it. And on a recent project, he
was checking in on your progress literally every fifteen to
thirty minutes, doing this thing where he was finding mistakes
in real time and correcting them before you had even
had a chance to look over your work. And those
were cases where you would have found those mistakes yourself
(01:55):
if he had just stepped back and given you some room.
And you wrote that it's gotten so bad that it
aims you have been ending the day crying. Am I
getting all that right? Yeah? That's it was very specific
to that project that I was working on, but I
started to get the impression that this is a trend
that I should begin addressing. Yeah, And I also want
(02:15):
to note that you said that you know you're a
good employee, and he actually poached you from your old
job to come work for him, so you know that
he likes your work. It's not a case where he's
covering because your work is bad. Right. I think that's
an accurate description, And I would even go as far
to say as like we are friends. And that's one
of the reasons that I'm so adamant about trying to
figure out how to address this properly, is because I
(02:38):
like the way that we work together, and I think
we have a really good working relationship and I don't
want to damage that by saying the wrong things or
critiquing the way that he manages me. Tell me more
about that. What is your relationship like with him? So
we professionally have like known of each other for some time.
(02:58):
We work in a some small industry, so everyone kind
of knows each other, so to speak. And I've always
had a lot of respect for him, And have you
know when I was looking to move jobs, his was
a name that I knew and was honestly very flattered
when I got the email because I was I was
shocked that I did not expect expect him to know
(03:19):
who I was. I'm a junior level staffer and he's
more of a senior level management person in our field,
and we have we work very well together. Um our
current situation is, uh, we are remote, so he isn't
always in the office with me at the same times,
and so I think that also plays a role in
(03:40):
that hands off aspect where I will go a very
long time without talking to him. But because it's when
he's actually in the office that the micro managing picks up.
And how comfortable do you feel with him? It sounds
like you have a pretty good rapport. Yeah, very comfortable.
We talk about, you know, very personal things he you know,
(04:01):
recently his mom passed away, and that's definitely become a
consideration for me as I think about how to have
a conversation with him about this micromanagement style that he has,
because I he is such an empathetic boss in terms
of things that I've experienced personally, and then I've tried
(04:21):
very hard to be him be there for him in
this time and so you know, we share personal effects
with each other because I think he just wants to
foster that kind of open relationship with the people that
he works with, both a co workers and people he manages. Yeah,
I think his mom dying definitely changes the calculation and
(04:42):
when you might address it with him that while that
is still really fresh, let's not give him another thing
that's stressful to put on his plate. But I do
think a couple of months down the road, it's definitely
something that you can bring up that you do want
to be sensitive to that timing, of course. Okay, I
want to talk about micro management generally, and then I
(05:03):
want to get into some specific advice on what you
might do here. So I think the first thing to
talk about is what micro management means, because people use
it to describe a whole bunch of different things. It
is not just being involved in your work, because good
managers do stay involved in things like getting aligned on
what outcomes you're going for, and checking in on progress
(05:26):
as work is progressing, and giving feedback and sometimes course
correcting when it's needed. That's all good managers should be
doing that stuff. Micro management, though, is when a manager
is dictating exactly how to do the work, watching over
every step in the process, refusing to delegate any real
decision making, and constantly well I should say and or
(05:50):
and or constantly checking up on work that you have
shown in the past that you can do well. And
micro managers will often manage really low importance projects the
same way that they will manage high importance projects. They
don't always differentiate in their approach based on what's actually needed.
And I think there are a few reasons why people
(06:12):
micro manage. The big one, and I think it is
true of every micro manager, is that they genuinely do
not know a better way. They don't actually know how
to manage when they've delegated work, but they're responsible for
ensuring that it's done and that it's done well, and
so they swoop in with this terrible style because they
(06:33):
don't have different tools and this is the only way
they can think of to make sure that things get
done well. I do that there can be more to
it too. I mean, of course, for a lot of
micro managers, it's rooted in control. You know, they don't
trust their staff to do good work without constant supervision. Again, though,
that's not knowing how to manage, because if you're managing effectively,
(06:55):
that's not really something you need to worry about, because
you do have systems for making sure that everyone is
aligned about the work at the outset. You have set
checkpoints along the way where you check in on progress
so there won't be any surprises. But again, micro managers
don't know how to do that. Now, sometimes people complain
that they're being micromanaged, when what is really happening is
(07:16):
that they've given their boss good cause to doubt the
reliability of their work. That does not sound like the
case here. I'm just covering this for the sake of
being being thorough. I don't think this what's happening with you.
But sometimes a manager will start managing more closely because
the person has shown that they need it, And then
you get people complaining about being micro managed when really
their manager is managing appropriately for the situation. So in general,
(07:40):
if someone is feeling micromanaged, it's always good to do
a gut check, you know, ask yourself, is there anything
I've done that could be leading to this, Like have
I been missing deadlines or letting things fall through the cracks,
or you know, not incorporating my boss's feedback into my
work that kind of thing. And actually, let me pause
here and ask I don't and I'll get this, get
(08:01):
the sense of that is the situation. But let's make
sure does that stuff sound like what could be happening here? No,
I don't get that impression either, And I ask a
lot of questions in my that's my work style. I
just I ask a lot of questions. And I think
the problem, one of the big problems that I have noticed,
is sometimes he misinterprets questions as ignorance. And oftentimes it's
(08:24):
a fact finding mission for me, not a let's explain
to her or the A B c's of this process. Uh,
And that's what I meant by explaining my own work
back to me. It's oftentimes I'll have spent days on
a project and he knows that I've spent days on
this project, and I'll ask just a clarifying question and
(08:45):
find that his response involves all a lot of the
work that I've already done, and if he just, you know,
had had had read that or seen that, he just
jumps to the conclusion that I don't know what I'm
doing at times. And I don't think that's because is
he doesn't think I know what I'm doing. It's because
he's been the leading expert in this field for so long,
and I don't think he thinks anyone knows what they're doing. Yeah,
(09:08):
I don't think it's a personal thing. Sometimes not always.
Sometimes with that dynamic, you can kind of head it
off by saying to yourself, Okay, I know that he
has this tendency. If I just ask the question with
no caveat and no prelude, I'm going to get this
whole long explanation that I don't need. And so I'm
gonna preface it with I have X, Y, and Z
(09:29):
totally covered and I'm fine there, but I have a
question for you about this one piece of it, and
then ask your question so that you're sort of framing
it for him in a very explicit way. Do you
think something like that could help I do. I think
that's I think about that a lot in terms of
conversations going forward. But it's almost hard in the slack
(09:50):
I am generation, where like oftentimes I'm asking what I
think is a thirty second question, but the nature of
how we just shoot off quick questions over instant messaging,
it's sometimes when I think is a thirty second question,
he thinks it's. It's almost a generational thing. I'm not
sure if that makes any sense, but I'm like, this
is a this five second this five word question will
(10:13):
be answered in no time, but he wants to write
a small paragraph about it. Yes, So I mean it
might be that you just do an experiment here and
try the framing that I'm talking about a couple of
times and see it, like, be very deliberate about making
yourself to it, even when you are thinking, this is
just a quick question, and see what happens, see if
it works. Because if it does work, great, Now you
(10:33):
know that that you just have to be really really
explicit about what you do and don't need um. But
it could be an interesting experiment to try. Yeah, I've
never thought about doing it that way. I never give
set up because I you know, he gives me projects
to work on, so I assume he knows what I'm
working on. So sometimes I kind of just jump into
the meat of it without taking a step back to
(10:54):
be like, if I don't provide some context, I'm going
to get that paragraph explanation I'm dreading. Yeah, and you know,
it could also be like, yeah, he knows what you're
working on, Cassie assigned it to you, but it might
not be at the top of his mind at that
very moment, you know, especially if you're doing it over
I am or something. He's absorbed in something else. You're
asking him this question. He's not necessarily pausing to think, Oh,
(11:15):
of course, she's been like deep in the stuff for
the last few days. I don't need to give her
this background. He might not even be making that connection
in his head. Yeah, I never I never thought about
it that way. That's a great point. I mean, I
could be wrong, and you could try this and it
might not work, but I think it's worth trying and
seeing what happens. Let's do a short break here, and
then I want to come back and talk about micro
(11:35):
management some more and then get into what to do
from here. Another thing I wanted to note about micro
managers is that in general, this pattern that you are
seeing with your boss, where he switches from really hands
(11:56):
off to way too hands on, is really common. And
what tends to happen is that a manager starts off
pretty hands off, give someone a lot of leeway to
run with a project, and then maybe it doesn't go
according to plan because the manager didn't set clear enough
expectations at the start, So then they vow that they're
going to be involved much more closely next time. I
(12:18):
don't know that that's what's happening here for you. It
sounds like it could be like there's a little bit
of out of sight, out of mind going on when
he's not in the office, and it sounds like maybe
when something is a stressor to him, if he gets
more involved, then so I think that is maybe not
the explanation in your situation, but it is a really
common one. Yeah, I do think that is partially the situation,
(12:40):
especially for my example that I had given him my
initial um letter to you because we were working under
a really tight deadline. So he had given me a
project that with a forty eight hour deadline. But when
I started working on it, I realized pretty quickly, no,
this is forty eight hours worth of work, but he
needs me to get done in forty eight hours, So
(13:01):
you know, I pulled close to all nighters, and then
on the second on the third day when it was due,
he became very stressed that it wasn't done. But the
reality was I didn't feel like I was given enough
time to begin with to do the project. And so
then suddenly he started stepping in all the time being like,
do you have this, do you have this? Do you
have this on repeat every fifteen to thirty minutes, which
(13:23):
are valid questions, but I don't know if they would
have been the case if he had said a realistic timeline. Ah, yep,
so it normally I don't feel like what you're describing
as the case, but I have seen that and I
think it can be a little bit of both from
my situation. Yeah, so it might be that there are
things that you can do in your end to head
some of this off at the start, Like so if
(13:44):
we could go back in time, which sadly we cannot
too when he was first giving you that project, if
you knew at the start this is a really tight deadline,
and it sounds like you did know that you might
do some expectations setting with him, and maybe you did,
but if you didn't, it could be useful to say. So,
I want to let you know, I think this is
a really tight deadline. Um, I can put in a
(14:05):
lot of extra hours and try to make it work,
but it does mean that it's going to be kind
of a rush, and then you might spell out for
him what that means, like if you think about the
sorts of things that he was concerned with on the
last day. If you're able to kind of prep him
for that being the case ahead of time, it might
help manage his expectations. Yeah. I try really hard to
do stuff like that, but it work. Creep is such
(14:27):
a problem. Yeah, the projects looked like a two day
project until I actually got into the weeds and realized
that the actual expectations of each of the components were
going to take so much time. But you're right, I
did figure that out probably within the first two to
three hours of work, and I should have taken a
step back and said something, but I am such a
(14:48):
I consider myself a very deadline driven person and really
want to make them and so it was respond appropriately.
I have that same problem too. I completely understand what
you're saying. There is benefit to it, so I think, like, again,
you might just try experimenting with it if you're in
a similar situation in the future, and just see if
it does make it better, because if it does, that's
(15:09):
going to kind of reinforce in your head, like, oh,
I should speak up about this again when it happens. Now.
Big picture, I mean, we can talk about these strategies
forgetting it, small pieces of those, but big picture, I
think at some point you do want to try talking
to your boss about this style that he gets. Sometimes,
before I get into how you might do that, have
(15:31):
you tried doing that yet at all? Not really, And
I think a lot of it is because we have
such a good working relationship that I'm afraid to speak up.
I'm afraid that I'm going to ruin our relationship or
by even And I don't know. This has nothing to
do with micro managing specifically. It just has to do
with like employee boss relationships, Like I'm always nervous to
(15:53):
critique my boss because I think there are a lot
of bosses out there that will take it poorly. Yeah,
and I've had experience and some previous jobs we're speaking
up had had an impact on my work there and
my time there. Frankly, I don't think that's this is
the case. I think that we he wants me to
stay and has no interest in finding a way to
get me fired, especially because he's the one that brought
(16:16):
me over. But I'm still nervous about bringing it up,
and I don't know how to not be nervous. I
think you will be nervous. I think I don't wait
until you can find a way to not be nervous
as a sign that like a ha, now it's the
time for me to speak up, because he will probably
always be nervous. It is an inherently nerve wracking thing
to do, especially the first time you're doing it with
a particular manager, because you haven't seen yet firsthand how
(16:40):
they react to that kind of thing. So I would say,
you're probably going to be nervous. Don't let that be
a reason to not do it. I absolutely hear you
on some boss is reacting really badly to people bringing
up issues in their working relationships. You've got to know
your boss. I mean, if you look at him and
you think, okay, he's always been pretty reasonable with me, like, yes,
we have some differences, but in general he is like
(17:04):
a rational person who doesn't shoot the messenger, who doesn't
get really defensive when he hears something that he doesn't like.
Those are signs that you can probably have the conversation.
If you were telling me, oh, no, actually he's super
defensive and kind of a mean guy, then then I
would not be recommending the conversation that I'm about to have.
But it sounds like you respect him and you have
(17:25):
pretty good rapport. Yeah, I think that's that is. I
don't think I know that is an accurate characterization. Okay,
So I'm going to tell you how I would say it.
And this isn't going to be precisely right because I
don't have the details, but I'm going to give you
kind of generally how I would frame it. I would
sit down with him and say something like I was
(17:45):
hoping we could talk about something I've noticed about how
we're working together. A lot of the time, you give
me a lot of autonomy, which I really appreciate, but
I have noticed that on some projects you'll manage my
work so closely that it can be hard for me
to even complete my portion of it. For example, on
the X project recently, you are checking into my work
so frequently that you were finding mistakes in real time
(18:07):
before I had had a chance to review it. And
that meant that you thought I was making mistakes that
would never have been in the finished work that I
turned into you, except that you kept coming back to
look at it while it was still in progress. And
it was pretty demoralizing because I wasn't having a chance
to perfect it before you saw it. And then I
know I'm harping on at one example that you gave
me because I was so I was so egregious. So
(18:27):
maybe give another example or two here of times when
it has happened, and then say, when that happens, it
makes me feel like you don't think I'm competent. And
I do think that I have a track record of
good performance and attention to detail and asking questions when
I need to, and so it can be tough to
be managed in a way that makes me feel like
you don't see me as capable. And I want to
(18:49):
be clear that I absolutely welcome guidance and feedback, but
I wonder if there is a way to structure how
that happens so that I'm still trusted to get my
work done without that kind of really close over say,
or is there a reason that you don't feel like
you can trust me without such a close oversight? And
then see what he says, but at some point in
(19:09):
the conversation, you're going to need to propose, well, actually,
let me pause there before I go into this next piece.
Deep does that feel like something you could imagine saying
it does? And I don't think he would react negatively
to the feedback like that uh. In fact, I can
already kind of sense that he will say something along
the lines of improving our communications in general, and I
(19:31):
think some of that is so tough by having a
boss that's remote currently and then sometimes in the office,
like the dynamics of how we communicate inherently shift. Uh.
And it's hard to find a standardization around that. But
I think that would be a very reasonable way for
me to approach it with him, and I don't think
that he would react negatively to that. And I think
(19:52):
I really think it's a stress like he tries to
carry the weight of the world on his shoulders, which
is very admirable, but I sometimes don't oh as an employee,
like I want to help I want to help him
be not as stressed, But if he's projecting that stress
back onto me, then it's just creating this weird, unhealthy dynamic. Yes, absolutely, well,
(20:13):
I like that you think you could have that conversation
and it would go okay. I want to point out
the tone that I was using for that, because it's
not like a complaining tone. It's a tone of like, hey,
I want to fix this, Like I see this problem.
I feel like you and I can do better. Can
we talk about how to make that happen. So it's
not like I'm just venting to you I hate that
(20:35):
you might remanage me. It's more positive than that, and
I think that helps. Let's take a quick break and
we'll be right back to talk about this some more. Now,
at some point in this conversation, I would try proposing
(20:56):
a specific alternative, Like I wouldn't just say it and
then wait for him to figure out how to solve it,
because there's a very good chance that he won't know
how to solve it, Like if this is just sort
of the way that he knows how to manage, he
might not have anything specific to think of to do instead.
So I would say, you need to be the one
to say, could we try blank instead, and let's talk
(21:20):
about what blank could be. So to a large extent,
it depends on the details of what it is that
he's trying to to not or that you are trying
to get him to stop micro managing. But often for
micro managers, the thing that they really want is a
way to stay engaged enough that they know that the
work is happening on schedule, that it's progressing the way
(21:41):
that it should that there aren't going to be any
awful surprises down the road, like discovering that the work
that you've done is totally different from what he needed,
or you miss some key deadline, or you didn't do
it at all, or whatever it is that they have
a fear of in their head. So what you've got
to do is propose a different system that still gives
them those things that lets the person stay engaged enough
(22:03):
that he does know that things are progressing the way
they should, and where he also knows that he will
have a chance to give input or change direction if
he needs to before it's too late, because that's usually
what micromanagers want, that's what all managers want. Micro managers
are just going about it the wrong way. So there
is a way to get him that that does not
require him hovering over you. Now, usually it would be
(22:26):
something like regular status updates and regular check ins, which
are a lot less annoying if they're scheduled out ahead
of time and you both know when they're going to happen,
rather than him like swooping in and asking to check
in like every hour. So if it's a longer term project,
you could say something like what I propose is that
(22:46):
I send you data weekly or whatever time frame makes sense,
so that you can see how the work is progressing.
And then we could sit down and touch base for
like half an hour every Thursday afternoon or whatever, so
that I can update you about where we are and
you can look over what I've done so far and
get feedback. And then we can also talk really in
depth at the start of the project so that we
can both make sure we're on the same page, like
(23:07):
that I know exactly what's in your head about what
you're looking for, and you know that I know that,
so that you can have confidence about the way I'm
moving forward. For something shorter term, it's trickier. I mean,
if it's something that's going to get done in a
day or two, you're not really going to have progress meetings.
That would be silly. So in that case, you would
really lean into the part about getting aligned at the start,
(23:28):
like really making sure that you know what is in
his head, what it should and shouldn't look like, what
he worries, the pitfalls are, and so forth. Does that
make sense? It does I, and I then definitely like
the idea of check ins on progress. I think one
tough thing for the organization that I work for is
(23:49):
we are very Google Doc, Google Excel, whatever that equivalent is,
Google sheet, That's what it is, Google sheet reliant, And
so he can just lurk on the Google Doc as
I work, and that that is where a lot of
that came came in. On the specific project. He would
just be watching me working in real time because I'm
typing things into this Google Doc, and other than telling
(24:12):
him to stop, which is absurd, I don't know how
to reinforce to him that a weekly check in is
going to be good enough when he can just watch
me do work. Is that that sounds horrible? Do you
have to do it in a Google Doc that he
has access to? Um? Not really, It's just it's the
way the company has always worked, where we have hundreds
of unnecessary Google Docs for all of the work that
(24:35):
we do. UM. And so any project, once a new
once a new piece of it starts, is a new
Google Doc or Google Sheet is created for tracking the
information on the progress and all of that jazz. So
I feel that it would be slightly passive aggressive if
I said I'm going to do this and Excel and
then upload it later, because that would be such a
(24:57):
character shift for both myself and the organization that I
think it would be easy for him to sense that
something is awry. Yeah. Yeah, it sounds like you can't
just because I was originally thinking just change it, just
stopped doing that. But it sounds like you can't do
that without saying something about it without it seeming weird.
But I think it's worth saying something about um. I mean,
(25:18):
I might say, Hey, the fact that you were able
to go into the Google doc while I was working
and see what I was doing in real time and
spot what looked to you like mistakes but really weren't
because I wasn't finished with it made it a lot
more stressful for both of us. So when there's a
project like that in the future, I might not do
it in the Google doc while it's still ongoing. I
might upload it later and just let him know. But
(25:39):
I think with someone who has these tendencies, don't put
temptation in his way. Okay, but I agree you have
to address it and explain why so that doesn't look shady.
The other thing, too, I think, is with all of
this stuff, if he seems resistant or like he can't
really figure out another way to do it he would
feel comfortable with. One thing is you can try asking
(26:02):
if he would do a short term experiment with you,
like pick one project, one where you know that normally
he would be nervous and kind of micromanaging about it,
and ask if you can experiment with with managing it
in a different way so that you can both see
whether it goes better or not. And I mean you
could even do that with the Google doc things, say hey,
can we try it this way and just see how
it goes, because that is actually much easier for a
(26:24):
nervous micromanager to agree to, or any manager really, because
you're not asking him for permanent change. You're just saying,
let's try this one limited time project. We'll see how
it goes. If it's a disaster, which it probably won't be,
then fine. But if it goes okay, which it probably will,
that can make it easier to be comfortable trying it
with more things. I'm a big fan actually of proposing
(26:47):
stuff as a short term experiment when you can see
that your boss is kind of reluctant, because it's so
much easier to get a yes to that. Yeah, I
think that's I'm definitely willing to do that, And I
also think the timing works out really about we're actually
bringing on another member of our team, so we're kind
of in that natural state right now where we can
(27:08):
hit reset because it's no longer I'm the only one
currently being managed. It's not going to be a team
of two, so expectation settings are going to shift regardless.
So I feel like it would wouldn't it wouldn't even
be out of the question to hit to hit reset
and not having suspect almost like having the conversation without
having the conversation. Not that I don't want to have
(27:28):
the conversation, um, but I especially in the next couple
of months, because I'm still very cognizant of all the
personal things that have been going on for him. Figuring
out a way to try to create little shifts without
having this big conversation is kind of is helpful for me.
Good good. I think if you do want to try
talking to him directly, one other thing that you can
(27:51):
do is you can even ask directly, like, are there
things that you would want to see from me that
would make you feel comfortable giving me more autonomy and
situations like X and y because who knows, I mean,
maybe you'll actually hear something like, yeah, I need you
to be more consistent about X, or let's get you
more training on why or I mean, who knows. Maybe
maybe he'll be stumped by that question and the answer
(28:12):
is nothing, But it can be an interesting question to ask.
And if the answer is nothing, sometimes I can kind
of nudge a manager into realizing like, oh, I do
need to kind of loosen up on the reins here. Yeah, no,
I I agree. I'm the one thing I definitely want
to bring up, UM because I do think it's relevant.
Is I have my performance review next week, so much
(28:35):
of what we're discussing right now I want to talk
about and I feel like that's almost the perfect setting,
But I know it's too soon, and so I'm kind
of trying to think through in the next week or so,
talking to you and thinking about changes I want to make.
How do I have like the light version during my
performance review UM without overwhelming him? Yeah, the performance review
(28:59):
is such a perfect time to have this conversation. But
I agree with you with it with his mom having
just very recently died, I don't think you have to
avoid it entirely. Especially in the context of a performance
review or you're already you're already talking about how well
you work together. I don't it's interesting. If you weren't
having a performance review, I would say, yes, give him
(29:20):
some space. He's got enough on his plate. If you're
having the performance review, I think you can bring up
a fair amount of this as long as you're doing
it in like a positive way, like, hey, here's some
stuff that I've noticed. I think there's ways that we
could work better. Here what my thoughts are as opposed
to like I'm so frustrated. It's the I'm so frustrated
(29:40):
conversation that I would hold off on in the wake
of a parents death. But if it really is just
more like here's some here's some stuff about our working relationship,
I think there's room for that. OKU, go with go
with your gut on this, because you know him and
you know the dynamic and so forth. But but I
don't think it's a hard no because it would be
(30:01):
in the context of your performance review. But if you
don't do it, you can absolutely wait a month or
two and still bring it up, Like, don't feel like,
oh the you lost your window of opportunity and now
it's closed, you can you can just bring it up
as its own separate thing. Okay. Now, I do want
to be clear that no matter what you try, it
might end up being very hard to change the way
that your boss is about this. It's still worth trying,
(30:24):
and it's still worth at some point having that explicit
conversation because it has made you so unhappy. And the
nice thing about this is if you do have the
conversation and nothing changes, now you know that nothing is
likely to change. And I know that sounds very depressing,
but actually it can be very empowering to know. Okay,
I took the steps that were within my control to
(30:46):
try to change this. I learned that there isn't anything
I can do on my end that will change it.
And now I can figure out what I want to
do knowing that this is the situation, and that sometimes
means deciding Okay, I don't love this, but I like
enough other things about my job here that I will
find a way to be okay with this, And at
least I don't have to beat my head against the
while trying to change it, because I've already tried and
(31:08):
I know that it's not changing. Or sometimes it means deciding,
you know, I can deal with this for a year
or so, but after that I'm probably going to start
looking for a different job. Or sometimes it means deciding,
you know, hell no, I don't want to deal with
more of this, And now that I know it's not changing,
I'm really gonna work and getting out. But it makes
your options so much clearer once you've had the conversation
(31:30):
and and so you know what will and won't change. Yeah,
I hope that's not depressing. No, it's not at all.
And I know that that's a reality. And he has
mentioned that he wants to kind of hit reset with
this performance review. So that's why I didn't want to
push back on the few months timeline, but I didn't
(31:51):
want to miss a great opportunity. Yeah, I think you
could do it. I don't think it's an absolute no
go Okay. So does that help? Yeah? It does. And
I feel that I just need to do some you know,
internal soul searching from what that tone is going to be,
because I think at the end of the day, tone
is going to be the make or break um piece
(32:12):
of the conversation. Totally agree, absolutely, um. And again I
think the tone is I like you? I like working here.
Here's this thing that I've noticed that where I think
we could be more effective and can we just kind
of problem solve with us together. Well, thank you so
much for coming on the show, Thank you for having me,
(32:33):
Thanks for listening to the Asking Manager Podcast. If you'd
like to come on the show to talk through your
own question, email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org,
or you can leave a recording of your question by
calling eight five five T six work. That's eight five
five F T six nine seven five. You can get
more ask a Manager at ask a Manager dot org
or in my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate
(32:53):
clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your
life at work. The Ask a Manager Show is a
partnership with How Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Deckett.
If you liked what you heard, please take a minute
to subscribe, rate, and review the show on Apple Podcasts,
Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be
back next week with another one of your questions. M
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!