February 13, 2019 • 27 mins
Being around negative people who complain all the time can be exhausting, especially when they're a coworker and you're trapped in the office with them.
Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:03):
My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get as
people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep taking credit
for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi?
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager Podcast. Right
answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything from
what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers perfume
to what to do if you drink too much at
(00:23):
the company party. Let's get started. Being around negative people
who complain all the time can be exhausting, and when
that negative person is your coworker and you're trapped in
an office with them, it can be really draining not
to be able to get away from this constant flow
of complaints. And that is the situation that today's collar
(00:44):
is in. Hi and welcome to the show. Hi, thank
you for helping me. Allison. Well, let's see you have
a pretty intractable problem here, So let's see if you
still feel that way at the end of the show.
So you have a co worker who is incredibly negative.
She's a bookkeeper who comes in a few times a month,
and she shares an office with you when she does,
and she complains constantly about life and about work, and
(01:08):
to really paint a picture here. In your letter to me,
you wrote that her negative rants go on and on
to the point that, to quote your letter, I want
to take a shower from the negativity in the room.
When she leaves, I open windows and vacuum and play
happy music. I'm not exaggerating, Nope. You you also wrote,
(01:28):
I feel like this is a non consensual therapy relationship,
and she just expects me to be her therapist, and
you're looking for a way to set boundaries with her
and maybe talk to her about the negativity without hurting
her feelings, or at least in a way that is
socially acceptable to say. Am I getting all that right?
That is exactly right she and you know I should say,
(01:49):
because the letter was written in a point of frustration,
that she is a lovely person like overall, like I mean,
she's she has such a great heart, and she's such
a great human being. It's just that mindset is so
negative that just some stuff comes out, and so I
don't That's part of the reason. I just really don't
want to hurt her feelings or I don't I want
to be more socially conscious of her just because um,
(02:10):
you know, she is lovely, just just hard to be with.
It's really draining, I think, to be around someone who
is just so negative, and it's especially hard at work
where you need to focus and you're this trapped, captive
audience who can't just walk away because you've got to
sit there and try to work. How long has this
been going on? This is I've been with this company
(02:32):
for almost three years and it's twice a month for
three years, um, and she'll come in for a couple
of hours twice a month, which thankfully it's not every
day like it was every day. I don't know if
I could have stayed with the company, but like, you know,
twice a month is like, but yeah, it's a while, Yeah, yeah,
I mean it's a blessing. I guess that it's only
twice a month, but if it's really intense, I bet
(02:54):
it feels like a lot. What kinds of things does
she complain about? Oh my gosh. I mean it can
go from something that's going on, you know. Sometimes it's
just sharing something in her life with her, you know,
marriage or her household, or guests coming into stay, or
her recent trip on. Sometimes it's just local news in
the area. Sometimes it's national news. I mean, it's pretty
(03:17):
much if I a conversation topic comes up, it's going
to go in a negative direction. I think occasionally I'll
find a couple of safe topics that she can that
like it's only like semi negative, where it's not as bad.
But like, sometimes she can get so worked up on
stuff that she'll get emotional, even over stuff, which can
be really hard to deal with when I'm trying to
(03:37):
take calls or handle stuff at work as well. Fascinating.
I feel like I've had a few people like this
in my life, maybe not to this extent, because as
we get into the details that you shared in your letter,
I think it really sounds a lot worse than the
way chronic complainers usually present. But I think in general
(03:57):
it's so unpleasant to be around. But the thing that
is fascinat aeting to me is that for the complainer,
a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to be
unpleasant to them at all. It's almost like they get
some kind of enjoyment from the complaining, but it's not
clear why. To some extent, I kind of think maybe
they just have a different tolerance for unpleasant conversation. Like
(04:17):
A really minor example of this is that my mother
loves to complain about frustrating customer service experiences, Like I
don't know why that's her thing, but she loves it,
and she takes real joy in recounting in great detail
the frustrating conversation that she had with the phone company
or with the plumber. And when I say she takes
(04:38):
joy in it, she really seems to love it, like
I guess that it's venting, but with her, it seems
like a form of storytelling that she finds interesting and entertaining,
but which I find highly stressful to listen to. I mean,
I have my own annoying customer service experiences and I
don't need the stress of anyone else's. And she especially
(04:59):
likes to call me after I've had a really long
and stressful work day and launch into these lengthy diatribes.
So I eventually had to ban her from doing it
because it really does stress me out. And I think
she was baffled by that because she doesn't find it stressful,
she's entertained by talking about it, so she can't relate.
So I wonder, is your sense that your coworker is
(05:19):
sort of a happy grump in that way. I mean,
I don't know that it right, that's exactly what's up.
I'm glad you've pinpointed that because that's yeah, that's exactly it.
And I love that too, because it's always it's always
like when you know, like you really don't need it too,
like you're like, you know, I really didn't need this today,
like I I have. I'm working on my own stuff here.
So yeah, I love your I love your story about
(05:41):
your mom there. That's awesome because I do think there
are some people where they're not a happy crump, like
their energy is just all dirt clouds totally aside from
the actual content of what they're saying. But then there
are these people who like really do seem to take
a lot of pleasure in the negative stuff that they're sharing. Yeah,
absolutely fascinating. Now, when he said before that it feels
(06:03):
like she wants you to be her therapist. Is she
also like trying to get you to talk through her
problems with you or does she just want someone to listen. Well,
what's interesting is that she treats it like she wants
me to talk through it with her, but she doesn't
actually want that. So what will happen is when we
are talking, I'm she'll just start on a on a
(06:24):
monologue about something like maybe, um, you know, she had
an argument with her husband the night before, so she'll
start talk. She'll just be like, oh, my husband sucks.
And then she'll just start arguing, like saying like we
have this argument, she's so annoying and all of that,
and she'll like get try to get my confirmation, Like
she'll be like isn't that terrible? Like isn't that the worst? Um?
And I'm just like and sometimes it's I've tried where
(06:47):
I'm just like sure, yeah, and then like I just
changed topics. Um. I do a lot of just body language.
It's like I'm not interested in hearing more. Sometimes I'm like,
you know, um, I don't know. It sounds like he's right.
Like when I'm like just finding any way to change
the subject. Sometimes I just changed the subject. But like
if i'm if I'm asking her outright like how you know, well,
(07:07):
what did you do? Like how did that happen? And
she'll she'll just start making it like talking worse about it,
like I don't know how to explain it completely, but
like she just kind of keeps It's it's almost like
she wants my confirmation about how terrible it is, but
she doesn't actually want me to help her with the problem,
and she just wants to vent. As you're saying it,
I'm thinking how funny it would be if you actually
(07:28):
just like double down on the negativity. I don't actually
recommend this, but like, it's interesting. There was one time
where we were talking um and she was complaining about
some people who were visiting and they've been there for
way too long. They were just kind of staying in
her house and she doesn't have she's not very good
at setting boundaries with people, and so what she what
(07:49):
was happening is these people were just staying at her
house and she's like, my husband's just telling me that
I should just tell them to leave. And I was like,
I agree with your husband, you need to tell them
to leave. And she's like and she just had a
huge argument with her husband over this, and she was
like she just kind of gave me this like startled look,
and then she just kept going like talking about how
terrible it is that they're there. And I'm like, all right,
I'm gonna go file stuff like all right then, yeah,
(08:10):
So it really does make me wonder that what would
happen if you were like, yeah, your husband is a
huge oh my gosh. Right. I think she'd just be like, yeah,
I agree with you, and then she'd like tell me
more stories about it. I'm like, I don't want to
keep this going so alight that happen to think about it, though,
Let's talk about what you have tried to do, because
(08:31):
I know from your letter that you have tried a
whole bunch of different strategies and none of them have worked.
So will you run through what you've tried so far? Absolutely?
I can do that. So one thing I've tried is
finding some certain safe subjects that work. That's like food.
For example, we can talk about food. I'm I'm I'm vegan,
and she's fascinated with that, so we talk about that
(08:52):
sometimes and she'll tell me about a restaurant she went to.
I'm in Like the complainings minimal there, so it kind
of makes it less negative, but it is, and actually
like there's no positive subjects with her. Sometimes I'm just
I make sure I'm really busy with other things, and
I like save up. There's certain work that I can't
do when she's there, so I just save up the
work that I have to do when she's there, um,
(09:13):
which it works okay, but sometimes she just like monologues
in between, Like I'll make a phone call and I'll
get off the call and then she'll just monologue at
me for a little bit um while she's working, or
she'll just talk to herself, like if I'm going and
filing in the other room, she'll just like throw She'll
be like complaining about the work she's doing, or like
why does he do this? What's this? In the retorting
questions that sound like she actually wants me to like
(09:34):
jump in, but she doesn't, And I have to keep
checking because I kind of need to know what she
needs sometimes to take a lunch when she's there, And
though it's not always, I'm not able to do it
all the time. Sometimes I told you about just disagreeing
with her, like, um, you know my husband should just
tell them to leave, and I'm like, yeah, I agree
with your husband. She just kind of moves on. I'll
ask her what she you know, the big thing is
(09:56):
the thing where she'll be complaining. I'll say, you know,
what are you gonna do? About that, and she'll go,
I don't know, and then she'll continue to rant, and
sometimes she'll just rant about how she doesn't know what
to do, but she doesn't actually want to know what
to do. She just wants to complain about how she
does know what to do. And then sometimes I'll say like, hey,
I can't talk right now, I need to do this work.
And then she, like I said earlier, she just does
(10:16):
the little comments like she'll be working and she'll be like,
why does he work it this way? Or why does
this happen this way? Or you know, what's this supposed
to be? And I don't know, like what I'm supposed
to jump in on and what I'm not. So I'll
just be listening to her talking in the other room
and then she'll just yell my name, and I'll I'll
jump in and I'll be like, oh right, sorry, wasn't listening.
Let's take a quick break here and then come back
(10:37):
and talk about what to do. One of the things
that was so fascinating to me about your letter is
that you have already tried the things that I would
normally suggest that you try, and that in most cases
would have some effect on the person but she is
(11:00):
impervious to all of the normal things that you would
try in this situation. The thing about asking her, so
what do you plan to do about whatever negative thing
she's complaining about? Sometimes can work really well because I
mean clearly not here, but but sometimes it will get
the person out of venting mode. And honestly, sometimes the
(11:20):
reason it works is not because it actually shifts them
into action mode, but because it makes you an unsatisfying
person to vent to. Because if someone just wants to
vent and they keep hearing in response, well, so what
are you going to do about it? Often they will
take their venting somewhere else because you're no fun to
vent to at that point. But that apparently did not
(11:41):
work with her. I learned that from you, Alison, so
that's why I did it. Let you down. This is terrible.
It works in other areas too, It's worked before, just
not with this particular person. Okay, see, she's very she's
very tricky. It's interesting. I do think there are up
at different options that you can still try. Um, let's
(12:03):
talk more about the strategy of being busy with work
while she's there. So if you directly say I can't
talk now, I have to focus on work, she just
starts talking out loud to herself, right, yes, exactly when
that happens. Have you ever tried saying, Hey, I'm sorry,
but I've got to focus over here. Can I ask
(12:24):
you not to talk to yourself while I'm working? I
have not asked her to do that. Would you feel
comfortable doing that? Because I think it's a reasonable thing
to do, But I also know that it's the kind
of thing that some people feel awkward about doing. I
think she would be really annoyed with me, But I'm
kind of okay with that, So, um, i'd be comfortable
asking her to be quiet. It's funny, I haven't even
(12:46):
really thought of doing that, but yeah, that's I could
definitely ask her to hey, could you not talk to yourself?
That would probably help that she might even do it.
She just might just be really annoyed in the process.
But I mean, I'm okay with that. Yeah. I think
you may have to get any of these to work.
You may have to accept that she's going to be
a little annoyed with you, but that that's okay. I mean,
her being annoyed with you is not the worst thing
(13:07):
in the world. You're really annoyed with her, right now,
that's true, spread out a little bit. Yeah. I think
often people don't think to just be very direct about
that because when someone is sort of already acting in
a way that is outside the bounds of like the
social contract that we normally have with each other about
what isn't isn't okay, behavior like what she's doing is
(13:30):
sort of outside those bounds, and I think when someone
is it can be hard for the other person, you
in this case, to to even know what to do
because this person isn't playing by the same rules that
you're used to people playing by. So I'm not surprised
that it hasn't that you haven't thought, Oh, I could
just ask that, but I would, I would try that,
you know, say you know, hey, I'm sorry, I've got
(13:52):
to focus over here. Can I ask you to not
talk while I'm working? And then if she starts back up,
and she might because I suspect it's deeply ingrained habit
with her, you can remind her. I mean, you can say, Jane,
I really need to focus on what I'm doing. I've
got to ask you to stop doing that, and you can,
you know, you can be nice about it you can.
It can sound like fake, exasperated or whatever tone works
(14:14):
for the relationship. You might need to do it a
few times in order to kind of train her, maybe
even more than a few times, but I bet if
you did it enough, it would eventually help. That's a
good point too. Yeah, And you know, it's interesting as
you're saying this, because she's been doing this for a
couple of years. I wonder I'm kind of wondering if
maybe a big picture conversation before that might be helpful,
(14:37):
like to talk to about hey, sometimes you know, and
sometimes honestly, like there's times where I don't have as
much work to do when she's there because I'm still waiting.
I'm kind of waiting on her, So they're going to
be times where that won't be the case. But while
I'm working, maybe she'll be able to calm down or
I can save up work then and do it more
when she's around. So I kind of love that. And
maybe even just something as as you're saying this, I'm
(14:59):
just thinking of like, hey, like sometimes when you're talking
aloud to yourself, it might be I get distracted. Could
you would you mind just not talking out loud to
yourself like that, it's really hard for me to focus.
That's perfect, it's polite. She may still be annoyed, but
it's it's really I mean, any outside observer looking at
that would say that's a perfectly reasonable, polite request. It's
a place of work. You know that there's a recourse
(15:21):
that we have to make of each other. Sometimes I
like the idea of you doing that kind of big
picture like, hey, sometimes this is distracting, and then in
the moment, if it's continuing to happen, you can say like, hey,
I've got to ask you to to rain that in
or hold that down, and she'll have that framework that
you've already set up of understanding what you're asking. I
kind of love that. It also kind of it makes
(15:42):
the problem that she's talking and not what how negative
she is, because I'm not going to change that about her.
So but I can have her talk list, which is
which is an improvement. So yes, absolutely, And I think
I want to talk a little bit more about worrying
that she might be annoyed, because I think so often
(16:04):
that constrains people. And she's similar to yours, um where
people feel like I've I've exhausted all the things that
I feel polite saying, the person is still engaging in
the problematic behavior, so now I'm out of options. But
I think sometimes to get this kind of thing to stop,
you have to get creative and not feel constrained by
(16:24):
the same etiquette that you would follow with someone behaving
more normally. And it's possible she won't even find it
rude because clearly she's not using the same etiquette playbooks.
But even if she does think it's a little rude
or something that's okay. I mean, it's not like you're
calling her a jerk. You're telling her that you need
to focus on work, and you'll be doing it more
(16:46):
assertively than you have previously. But again, I mean the
reason for that is that her behavior is so out
of the norm. So I think it's okay to do
something that doesn't feel perfectly polite here because she's created
a situation where you're sort of force too. None of
that is to say that what we're talking about isn't polite.
I mean, the sort of conversation that you're proposing is
(17:06):
very polite. I think where you might start feeling less
polite is if you have to do those follow up
reminders where you're like, hey, you've got to keep it
down over there, But that's really okay to do. Yeah,
that's a really good point. Um, Now if that doesn't work,
because I want to be realistic that she so far
has seemed immune to all reasonable tactics. M one other thing,
(17:29):
I mean, our headphones an option you could explain at
the outset, Hey have started wearing headphones because they helped
me concentrate, And then maybe you could just play music
and block her out while she's there. That's something I
would have done, except that I'm it's just not an
option where she is so because I have to take
calls at the other So I switched desks and all
my music and anything I would normally play because I'm
(17:49):
I'm very fortunately get to work alone a lot at
the time, so I play music all the time in
the office, but I don't get to I don't get
to do that when she's there. So got it? Okay? Um, Yeah,
I'm it might be that at some point you've got
to figure you can cut down on some of this
by telling her directly, but that there's always going to
be something that you can't get away from. If you
need to interact with her. But taking it from like
(18:12):
if it's a ten, now, taking it down to a
four would probably still be a huge improvement in your
quality of lice. Yeah, especially because it's only twice a month,
Like you know, tend to a four. I can work
with the four. So we'll pause here for a quick
break and then we'll be right back. So we were
(18:35):
talking about addressing it head on, about the talking, but
I think potentially you could also address the negativity. Like
I would start with just the talking piece of it
and see where that gets you. If that gets you
down to a four, then great, But if she if
it doesn't really take care of the problem, and there's
still lots of negativity being exuded into your space, and
(18:57):
you want to talk about the negativity. In theory, I'm
hesitating here because if you were around her daily, I
would say to definitely do what I'm about to advise.
Since you're not, I don't know that it's worth it.
But in theory, at some point you could say something
to her like, hey, I don't know if you realize
how often you've vent here about things that you feel
(19:17):
really negatively about. But it's a lot and it can
be really tough to work around that. And you know,
I try to keep a more positive energy in here
and always being so negative as making my own job unpleasant.
But you know, as I'm saying this, I feel like
it's maybe too much for someone who's just in there
a few times a month. It might be, although it
could help if she gets really on a roll like
(19:39):
where she's really getting negative, I can kind of stop
and say, hey, you know, like we're kind of trying
to work here and this is getting into a really
negative space, and um, you know, I totally get that
you're in paining of stuff going on, but you know,
maybe you need to go and find figure out. Like
you know, I don't want to say like go get
professional help, but find a way to say, like, hey,
like if you need somewhere to event like this, this
is not something that I'm trained to do. Um, you know,
(20:02):
and I can say it like that even and you
know she's probably going to hate that, but like, you know,
if if she's feeling the need to come and have
a non consensual therapist, maybe she needs a real therapist,
which she does not have. So you know, that might
be something to say. But I think that's something I
would need to be really careful with it to be
about timing, especially so I don't even know that I
would say it, but like that might be something to
(20:24):
just have ready to go in my mind. I love
so much about what you just said, for I think
the wording itself is really good and that sort of
general concept and I'll so your point about timing but
have is exactly right. But thinking it through beforehand, like
thinking if I, if there ever is an opening to
say this, how do I want to say it? Then
if there is that opening, you're ready to go and
(20:45):
you're not just kind of winging it, because I think
with these trickier conversations, if you do just wing it
in the moment, sometimes it comes out really differently than
than how you want to do. So No, but I
think I think that's great, and I think there's there's
a less warmal option to which is just like Jane,
I can't handle the negativity today, and I'm banning you
(21:06):
from negative topics while you're here. So I love that
that would be good because she totally she'd probably laugh
and then like we'd be over it, and then she
get negatively, Hey, exactly, Yes, I kind of love that
that might help too, So you could try that, and
that doesn't make it like a big thing, Like now
I'm having this serious conversation with you, you're just kind
(21:26):
of throwing it off, and it's it's hard to argue
with that. You know, what's she gonna say? Like, no,
I will talk about negative topics while I'm here. I
love that. That would probably make a huge difference. Oh good, Okay,
so there's something to definitely try. And really, I mean
like if you do say it and then you feel
kind of rude having said it, it might get through
(21:49):
to her where nothing else is. And again, like she's
the one who's being rude here, so you don't need
to dance around it out of politeness. Yeah, and I
mean it might be helpfully you know how of a
place that she goes twice a month where instead of
she's just venting, it becomes like a happy place to
go where we just have fun. So and I imagine
she doesn't have I know that a lot of friends
(22:10):
don't spend a lot of time with her because of this.
This is her whole life. So maybe just having twice
a month where we can have fun, this might be
it might be good for her, and I suspect you
will have to do those reminders a bunch, you know.
I don't think you're going to say it once and
it's going to be solved. I think it's you're going
to have to keep it up. But if you can
do it in kind of a fun, joking way where
she doesn't, it doesn't feel like a personal attack. You're
(22:33):
just like, hey, we're negativity free in this space today,
maybe it'll work. The other stuff I wanted to mention
to look at is just whether there are changes that
you can make to the physical environment, like do you
have to be in the same space as her, does
she have to come into the office at all, that
sort of stuff. In terms of changing the physical environment.
My boss is very understanding, and there's been I've done
(22:55):
a couple of things in that area that wasn't in
my original list that I sent you, which was He's
just very He's so supportive of this. UM. I think
he when I first came in, UM, there was a
point where he he noticed that I was because sometimes
he'll send me on errands out of the office, where
I was kind of asking, hey, do you have any errands?
Right before she'd come in and he kind of picked
(23:16):
up and he was like, how do you like working
with with Jane? And I'm like, uh, well, it's kind
of Tubby's like try again. I'm like, she's one of
the most negative people I've ever met, and he's like, yeah,
I totally get that. I'm the same way and um,
and so he actually if he has something for me
to do, he usually tries to set it for when
she's around to have me go out. And that's kind
of why I've taken lunch is there too, because it
(23:36):
gives me a break and then but like she has
to come in the office and the way that it's
set up is the same. Though. I'm really fortunate that
there are there is an angle where I could be
talking to my boss too, because he's i mean, even
just the last last week, I went on a break
and he needed me to do something. As I was
coming back for my break, and he was on the
phone with me outside of the office and he was like,
(23:58):
I can hear in your voice you're frustrated. Take longer break,
And he's like, don't go back to the office till
like half an hour from now, and just gave me
a free paid break and basically it was like, just
don't worry about it, and it's he's very good about
paying attention to work life balance that way, and just
just like, don't worry about it. It's cool that way,
you can be in a good space by the time
she leaves. And he was totally helpful. So that's probably
(24:21):
the closest thing to changes that could be made, got it.
I like your boss at least in this right. Yeah,
he's great, he's so Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah. I mean
if she were, if she were daily and you were
having to do this daily, I would be really curious
about why he keeps her on because I would say
this is worth changing bookkeepers over. But I can kind
of see it if he doesn't have that much interaction
(24:42):
and you're with a great bookkeeper, Yeah, I mean what
she's she's technically fantastic and she doesn't interact with anybody
with me, so she's pretty great for everyone else. Then
it's not anything. I mean, he calls, he always calls,
he takes what I've noticed, he has one phone call
he makes to her every time she comes, and he
like he listens and talks to her, and she does
(25:02):
the same thing with him on the phone with me
right there, I'll listen to I'll hear it, and uh yeah,
he does one and then he's done, and that he
doesn't pick up calls from the office except he knows
I'm in there, So I think he has the same problem.
People are very strange. Well, so that's basically my advice.
(25:25):
Under ordinary circumstances, I would have a lot of confidence
in it, except that, because you have tried all of
these other very logical things to try without success, I
am less confident in it than I normally would be.
But I think that because this is about really directly
telling her, like, hey, I need you to cut this out.
Maybe it'll go better than the previous things have. Yeah,
(25:47):
and you know, I kind of said even before we
started recording that, like, if the answer to this was
you know, there's no option here, you're just going to
have to deal with it twice a month and be
like I told you, I was like, it's fine if
that's the result, because I totally get this is really
a more difficult situation. But I feel like what you've
given me is really helpful because, um, it's something that
(26:07):
can at least make it better, which is totally great
because you know it is only twice a month and
we can I can always make it a little bring
it from a ten to a four, and that's going
to make a huge difference. Good. And I think that's
a healthy attitude to have about its manager expectations. Yeah, well,
thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank
(26:28):
you for having me. This is so helpful. Thanks for
listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast. If you'd like
to come on the show to talk through your own question,
email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or
you can leave a recording of your question by calling
eight five five six work. That's eight five five f
T six nine seven five. You can get more ask
a Manager at ask a Manager dot org or in
(26:49):
my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate clueless colleagues,
lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your life at work.
They Ask a Manager Show is a partnership with How
Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Decktt. If you
liked what you heard, please take a minute to subscribe,
rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or
Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next
week with another one of your questions. M.
My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything I get as
people and meeting. Why does my coworker keep taking credit
for all my ideas? Have any wisdom for me? Hi?
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Aska Manager Podcast. Right
answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything from
what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers perfume
to what to do if you drink too much at
(00:23):
the company party. Let's get started. Being around negative people
who complain all the time can be exhausting, and when
that negative person is your coworker and you're trapped in
an office with them, it can be really draining not
to be able to get away from this constant flow
of complaints. And that is the situation that today's collar
(00:44):
is in. Hi and welcome to the show. Hi, thank
you for helping me. Allison. Well, let's see you have
a pretty intractable problem here, So let's see if you
still feel that way at the end of the show.
So you have a co worker who is incredibly negative.
She's a bookkeeper who comes in a few times a month,
and she shares an office with you when she does,
and she complains constantly about life and about work, and
(01:08):
to really paint a picture here. In your letter to me,
you wrote that her negative rants go on and on
to the point that, to quote your letter, I want
to take a shower from the negativity in the room.
When she leaves, I open windows and vacuum and play
happy music. I'm not exaggerating, Nope. You you also wrote,
(01:28):
I feel like this is a non consensual therapy relationship,
and she just expects me to be her therapist, and
you're looking for a way to set boundaries with her
and maybe talk to her about the negativity without hurting
her feelings, or at least in a way that is
socially acceptable to say. Am I getting all that right?
That is exactly right she and you know I should say,
(01:49):
because the letter was written in a point of frustration,
that she is a lovely person like overall, like I mean,
she's she has such a great heart, and she's such
a great human being. It's just that mindset is so
negative that just some stuff comes out, and so I
don't That's part of the reason. I just really don't
want to hurt her feelings or I don't I want
to be more socially conscious of her just because um,
(02:10):
you know, she is lovely, just just hard to be with.
It's really draining, I think, to be around someone who
is just so negative, and it's especially hard at work
where you need to focus and you're this trapped, captive
audience who can't just walk away because you've got to
sit there and try to work. How long has this
been going on? This is I've been with this company
(02:32):
for almost three years and it's twice a month for
three years, um, and she'll come in for a couple
of hours twice a month, which thankfully it's not every
day like it was every day. I don't know if
I could have stayed with the company, but like, you know,
twice a month is like, but yeah, it's a while, Yeah, yeah,
I mean it's a blessing. I guess that it's only
twice a month, but if it's really intense, I bet
(02:54):
it feels like a lot. What kinds of things does
she complain about? Oh my gosh. I mean it can
go from something that's going on, you know. Sometimes it's
just sharing something in her life with her, you know,
marriage or her household, or guests coming into stay, or
her recent trip on. Sometimes it's just local news in
the area. Sometimes it's national news. I mean, it's pretty
(03:17):
much if I a conversation topic comes up, it's going
to go in a negative direction. I think occasionally I'll
find a couple of safe topics that she can that
like it's only like semi negative, where it's not as bad.
But like, sometimes she can get so worked up on
stuff that she'll get emotional, even over stuff, which can
be really hard to deal with when I'm trying to
(03:37):
take calls or handle stuff at work as well. Fascinating.
I feel like I've had a few people like this
in my life, maybe not to this extent, because as
we get into the details that you shared in your letter,
I think it really sounds a lot worse than the
way chronic complainers usually present. But I think in general
(03:57):
it's so unpleasant to be around. But the thing that
is fascinat aeting to me is that for the complainer,
a lot of the time, it doesn't seem to be
unpleasant to them at all. It's almost like they get
some kind of enjoyment from the complaining, but it's not
clear why. To some extent, I kind of think maybe
they just have a different tolerance for unpleasant conversation. Like
(04:17):
A really minor example of this is that my mother
loves to complain about frustrating customer service experiences, Like I
don't know why that's her thing, but she loves it,
and she takes real joy in recounting in great detail
the frustrating conversation that she had with the phone company
or with the plumber. And when I say she takes
(04:38):
joy in it, she really seems to love it, like
I guess that it's venting, but with her, it seems
like a form of storytelling that she finds interesting and entertaining,
but which I find highly stressful to listen to. I mean,
I have my own annoying customer service experiences and I
don't need the stress of anyone else's. And she especially
(04:59):
likes to call me after I've had a really long
and stressful work day and launch into these lengthy diatribes.
So I eventually had to ban her from doing it
because it really does stress me out. And I think
she was baffled by that because she doesn't find it stressful,
she's entertained by talking about it, so she can't relate.
So I wonder, is your sense that your coworker is
(05:19):
sort of a happy grump in that way. I mean,
I don't know that it right, that's exactly what's up.
I'm glad you've pinpointed that because that's yeah, that's exactly it.
And I love that too, because it's always it's always
like when you know, like you really don't need it too,
like you're like, you know, I really didn't need this today,
like I I have. I'm working on my own stuff here.
So yeah, I love your I love your story about
(05:41):
your mom there. That's awesome because I do think there
are some people where they're not a happy crump, like
their energy is just all dirt clouds totally aside from
the actual content of what they're saying. But then there
are these people who like really do seem to take
a lot of pleasure in the negative stuff that they're sharing. Yeah,
absolutely fascinating. Now, when he said before that it feels
(06:03):
like she wants you to be her therapist. Is she
also like trying to get you to talk through her
problems with you or does she just want someone to listen. Well,
what's interesting is that she treats it like she wants
me to talk through it with her, but she doesn't
actually want that. So what will happen is when we
are talking, I'm she'll just start on a on a
(06:24):
monologue about something like maybe, um, you know, she had
an argument with her husband the night before, so she'll
start talk. She'll just be like, oh, my husband sucks.
And then she'll just start arguing, like saying like we
have this argument, she's so annoying and all of that,
and she'll like get try to get my confirmation, Like
she'll be like isn't that terrible? Like isn't that the worst? Um?
And I'm just like and sometimes it's I've tried where
(06:47):
I'm just like sure, yeah, and then like I just
changed topics. Um. I do a lot of just body language.
It's like I'm not interested in hearing more. Sometimes I'm like,
you know, um, I don't know. It sounds like he's right.
Like when I'm like just finding any way to change
the subject. Sometimes I just changed the subject. But like
if i'm if I'm asking her outright like how you know, well,
(07:07):
what did you do? Like how did that happen? And
she'll she'll just start making it like talking worse about it,
like I don't know how to explain it completely, but
like she just kind of keeps It's it's almost like
she wants my confirmation about how terrible it is, but
she doesn't actually want me to help her with the problem,
and she just wants to vent. As you're saying it,
I'm thinking how funny it would be if you actually
(07:28):
just like double down on the negativity. I don't actually
recommend this, but like, it's interesting. There was one time
where we were talking um and she was complaining about
some people who were visiting and they've been there for
way too long. They were just kind of staying in
her house and she doesn't have she's not very good
at setting boundaries with people, and so what she what
(07:49):
was happening is these people were just staying at her
house and she's like, my husband's just telling me that
I should just tell them to leave. And I was like,
I agree with your husband, you need to tell them
to leave. And she's like and she just had a
huge argument with her husband over this, and she was
like she just kind of gave me this like startled look,
and then she just kept going like talking about how
terrible it is that they're there. And I'm like, all right,
I'm gonna go file stuff like all right then, yeah,
(08:10):
So it really does make me wonder that what would
happen if you were like, yeah, your husband is a
huge oh my gosh. Right. I think she'd just be like, yeah,
I agree with you, and then she'd like tell me
more stories about it. I'm like, I don't want to
keep this going so alight that happen to think about it, though,
Let's talk about what you have tried to do, because
(08:31):
I know from your letter that you have tried a
whole bunch of different strategies and none of them have worked.
So will you run through what you've tried so far? Absolutely?
I can do that. So one thing I've tried is
finding some certain safe subjects that work. That's like food.
For example, we can talk about food. I'm I'm I'm vegan,
and she's fascinated with that, so we talk about that
(08:52):
sometimes and she'll tell me about a restaurant she went to.
I'm in Like the complainings minimal there, so it kind
of makes it less negative, but it is, and actually
like there's no positive subjects with her. Sometimes I'm just
I make sure I'm really busy with other things, and
I like save up. There's certain work that I can't
do when she's there, so I just save up the
work that I have to do when she's there, um,
(09:13):
which it works okay, but sometimes she just like monologues
in between, Like I'll make a phone call and I'll
get off the call and then she'll just monologue at
me for a little bit um while she's working, or
she'll just talk to herself, like if I'm going and
filing in the other room, she'll just like throw She'll
be like complaining about the work she's doing, or like
why does he do this? What's this? In the retorting
questions that sound like she actually wants me to like
(09:34):
jump in, but she doesn't, And I have to keep
checking because I kind of need to know what she
needs sometimes to take a lunch when she's there, And
though it's not always, I'm not able to do it
all the time. Sometimes I told you about just disagreeing
with her, like, um, you know my husband should just
tell them to leave, and I'm like, yeah, I agree
with your husband. She just kind of moves on. I'll
ask her what she you know, the big thing is
(09:56):
the thing where she'll be complaining. I'll say, you know,
what are you gonna do? About that, and she'll go,
I don't know, and then she'll continue to rant, and
sometimes she'll just rant about how she doesn't know what
to do, but she doesn't actually want to know what
to do. She just wants to complain about how she
does know what to do. And then sometimes I'll say like, hey,
I can't talk right now, I need to do this work.
And then she, like I said earlier, she just does
(10:16):
the little comments like she'll be working and she'll be like,
why does he work it this way? Or why does
this happen this way? Or you know, what's this supposed
to be? And I don't know, like what I'm supposed
to jump in on and what I'm not. So I'll
just be listening to her talking in the other room
and then she'll just yell my name, and I'll I'll
jump in and I'll be like, oh right, sorry, wasn't listening.
Let's take a quick break here and then come back
(10:37):
and talk about what to do. One of the things
that was so fascinating to me about your letter is
that you have already tried the things that I would
normally suggest that you try, and that in most cases
would have some effect on the person but she is
(11:00):
impervious to all of the normal things that you would
try in this situation. The thing about asking her, so
what do you plan to do about whatever negative thing
she's complaining about? Sometimes can work really well because I
mean clearly not here, but but sometimes it will get
the person out of venting mode. And honestly, sometimes the
(11:20):
reason it works is not because it actually shifts them
into action mode, but because it makes you an unsatisfying
person to vent to. Because if someone just wants to
vent and they keep hearing in response, well, so what
are you going to do about it? Often they will
take their venting somewhere else because you're no fun to
vent to at that point. But that apparently did not
(11:41):
work with her. I learned that from you, Alison, so
that's why I did it. Let you down. This is terrible.
It works in other areas too, It's worked before, just
not with this particular person. Okay, see, she's very she's
very tricky. It's interesting. I do think there are up
at different options that you can still try. Um, let's
(12:03):
talk more about the strategy of being busy with work
while she's there. So if you directly say I can't
talk now, I have to focus on work, she just
starts talking out loud to herself, right, yes, exactly when
that happens. Have you ever tried saying, Hey, I'm sorry,
but I've got to focus over here. Can I ask
(12:24):
you not to talk to yourself while I'm working? I
have not asked her to do that. Would you feel
comfortable doing that? Because I think it's a reasonable thing
to do, But I also know that it's the kind
of thing that some people feel awkward about doing. I
think she would be really annoyed with me, But I'm
kind of okay with that, So, um, i'd be comfortable
asking her to be quiet. It's funny, I haven't even
(12:46):
really thought of doing that, but yeah, that's I could
definitely ask her to hey, could you not talk to yourself?
That would probably help that she might even do it.
She just might just be really annoyed in the process.
But I mean, I'm okay with that. Yeah. I think
you may have to get any of these to work.
You may have to accept that she's going to be
a little annoyed with you, but that that's okay. I mean,
her being annoyed with you is not the worst thing
(13:07):
in the world. You're really annoyed with her, right now,
that's true, spread out a little bit. Yeah. I think
often people don't think to just be very direct about
that because when someone is sort of already acting in
a way that is outside the bounds of like the
social contract that we normally have with each other about
what isn't isn't okay, behavior like what she's doing is
(13:30):
sort of outside those bounds, and I think when someone
is it can be hard for the other person, you
in this case, to to even know what to do
because this person isn't playing by the same rules that
you're used to people playing by. So I'm not surprised
that it hasn't that you haven't thought, Oh, I could
just ask that, but I would, I would try that,
you know, say you know, hey, I'm sorry, I've got
(13:52):
to focus over here. Can I ask you to not
talk while I'm working? And then if she starts back up,
and she might because I suspect it's deeply ingrained habit
with her, you can remind her. I mean, you can say, Jane,
I really need to focus on what I'm doing. I've
got to ask you to stop doing that, and you can,
you know, you can be nice about it you can.
It can sound like fake, exasperated or whatever tone works
(14:14):
for the relationship. You might need to do it a
few times in order to kind of train her, maybe
even more than a few times, but I bet if
you did it enough, it would eventually help. That's a
good point too. Yeah, And you know, it's interesting as
you're saying this, because she's been doing this for a
couple of years. I wonder I'm kind of wondering if
maybe a big picture conversation before that might be helpful,
(14:37):
like to talk to about hey, sometimes you know, and
sometimes honestly, like there's times where I don't have as
much work to do when she's there because I'm still waiting.
I'm kind of waiting on her, So they're going to
be times where that won't be the case. But while
I'm working, maybe she'll be able to calm down or
I can save up work then and do it more
when she's around. So I kind of love that. And
maybe even just something as as you're saying this, I'm
(14:59):
just thinking of like, hey, like sometimes when you're talking
aloud to yourself, it might be I get distracted. Could
you would you mind just not talking out loud to
yourself like that, it's really hard for me to focus.
That's perfect, it's polite. She may still be annoyed, but
it's it's really I mean, any outside observer looking at
that would say that's a perfectly reasonable, polite request. It's
a place of work. You know that there's a recourse
(15:21):
that we have to make of each other. Sometimes I
like the idea of you doing that kind of big
picture like, hey, sometimes this is distracting, and then in
the moment, if it's continuing to happen, you can say like, hey,
I've got to ask you to to rain that in
or hold that down, and she'll have that framework that
you've already set up of understanding what you're asking. I
kind of love that. It also kind of it makes
(15:42):
the problem that she's talking and not what how negative
she is, because I'm not going to change that about her.
So but I can have her talk list, which is
which is an improvement. So yes, absolutely, And I think
I want to talk a little bit more about worrying
that she might be annoyed, because I think so often
(16:04):
that constrains people. And she's similar to yours, um where
people feel like I've I've exhausted all the things that
I feel polite saying, the person is still engaging in
the problematic behavior, so now I'm out of options. But
I think sometimes to get this kind of thing to stop,
you have to get creative and not feel constrained by
(16:24):
the same etiquette that you would follow with someone behaving
more normally. And it's possible she won't even find it
rude because clearly she's not using the same etiquette playbooks.
But even if she does think it's a little rude
or something that's okay. I mean, it's not like you're
calling her a jerk. You're telling her that you need
to focus on work, and you'll be doing it more
(16:46):
assertively than you have previously. But again, I mean the
reason for that is that her behavior is so out
of the norm. So I think it's okay to do
something that doesn't feel perfectly polite here because she's created
a situation where you're sort of force too. None of
that is to say that what we're talking about isn't polite.
I mean, the sort of conversation that you're proposing is
(17:06):
very polite. I think where you might start feeling less
polite is if you have to do those follow up
reminders where you're like, hey, you've got to keep it
down over there, But that's really okay to do. Yeah,
that's a really good point. Um, Now if that doesn't work,
because I want to be realistic that she so far
has seemed immune to all reasonable tactics. M one other thing,
(17:29):
I mean, our headphones an option you could explain at
the outset, Hey have started wearing headphones because they helped
me concentrate, And then maybe you could just play music
and block her out while she's there. That's something I
would have done, except that I'm it's just not an
option where she is so because I have to take
calls at the other So I switched desks and all
my music and anything I would normally play because I'm
(17:49):
I'm very fortunately get to work alone a lot at
the time, so I play music all the time in
the office, but I don't get to I don't get
to do that when she's there. So got it? Okay? Um, Yeah,
I'm it might be that at some point you've got
to figure you can cut down on some of this
by telling her directly, but that there's always going to
be something that you can't get away from. If you
need to interact with her. But taking it from like
(18:12):
if it's a ten, now, taking it down to a
four would probably still be a huge improvement in your
quality of lice. Yeah, especially because it's only twice a month,
Like you know, tend to a four. I can work
with the four. So we'll pause here for a quick
break and then we'll be right back. So we were
(18:35):
talking about addressing it head on, about the talking, but
I think potentially you could also address the negativity. Like
I would start with just the talking piece of it
and see where that gets you. If that gets you
down to a four, then great, But if she if
it doesn't really take care of the problem, and there's
still lots of negativity being exuded into your space, and
(18:57):
you want to talk about the negativity. In theory, I'm
hesitating here because if you were around her daily, I
would say to definitely do what I'm about to advise.
Since you're not, I don't know that it's worth it.
But in theory, at some point you could say something
to her like, hey, I don't know if you realize
how often you've vent here about things that you feel
(19:17):
really negatively about. But it's a lot and it can
be really tough to work around that. And you know,
I try to keep a more positive energy in here
and always being so negative as making my own job unpleasant.
But you know, as I'm saying this, I feel like
it's maybe too much for someone who's just in there
a few times a month. It might be, although it
could help if she gets really on a roll like
(19:39):
where she's really getting negative, I can kind of stop
and say, hey, you know, like we're kind of trying
to work here and this is getting into a really
negative space, and um, you know, I totally get that
you're in paining of stuff going on, but you know,
maybe you need to go and find figure out. Like
you know, I don't want to say like go get
professional help, but find a way to say, like, hey,
like if you need somewhere to event like this, this
is not something that I'm trained to do. Um, you know,
(20:02):
and I can say it like that even and you
know she's probably going to hate that, but like, you know,
if if she's feeling the need to come and have
a non consensual therapist, maybe she needs a real therapist,
which she does not have. So you know, that might
be something to say. But I think that's something I
would need to be really careful with it to be
about timing, especially so I don't even know that I
would say it, but like that might be something to
(20:24):
just have ready to go in my mind. I love
so much about what you just said, for I think
the wording itself is really good and that sort of
general concept and I'll so your point about timing but
have is exactly right. But thinking it through beforehand, like
thinking if I, if there ever is an opening to
say this, how do I want to say it? Then
if there is that opening, you're ready to go and
(20:45):
you're not just kind of winging it, because I think
with these trickier conversations, if you do just wing it
in the moment, sometimes it comes out really differently than
than how you want to do. So No, but I
think I think that's great, and I think there's there's
a less warmal option to which is just like Jane,
I can't handle the negativity today, and I'm banning you
(21:06):
from negative topics while you're here. So I love that
that would be good because she totally she'd probably laugh
and then like we'd be over it, and then she
get negatively, Hey, exactly, Yes, I kind of love that
that might help too, So you could try that, and
that doesn't make it like a big thing, Like now
I'm having this serious conversation with you, you're just kind
(21:26):
of throwing it off, and it's it's hard to argue
with that. You know, what's she gonna say? Like, no,
I will talk about negative topics while I'm here. I
love that. That would probably make a huge difference. Oh good, Okay,
so there's something to definitely try. And really, I mean
like if you do say it and then you feel
kind of rude having said it, it might get through
(21:49):
to her where nothing else is. And again, like she's
the one who's being rude here, so you don't need
to dance around it out of politeness. Yeah, and I
mean it might be helpfully you know how of a
place that she goes twice a month where instead of
she's just venting, it becomes like a happy place to
go where we just have fun. So and I imagine
she doesn't have I know that a lot of friends
(22:10):
don't spend a lot of time with her because of this.
This is her whole life. So maybe just having twice
a month where we can have fun, this might be
it might be good for her, and I suspect you
will have to do those reminders a bunch, you know.
I don't think you're going to say it once and
it's going to be solved. I think it's you're going
to have to keep it up. But if you can
do it in kind of a fun, joking way where
she doesn't, it doesn't feel like a personal attack. You're
(22:33):
just like, hey, we're negativity free in this space today,
maybe it'll work. The other stuff I wanted to mention
to look at is just whether there are changes that
you can make to the physical environment, like do you
have to be in the same space as her, does
she have to come into the office at all, that
sort of stuff. In terms of changing the physical environment.
My boss is very understanding, and there's been I've done
(22:55):
a couple of things in that area that wasn't in
my original list that I sent you, which was He's
just very He's so supportive of this. UM. I think
he when I first came in, UM, there was a
point where he he noticed that I was because sometimes
he'll send me on errands out of the office, where
I was kind of asking, hey, do you have any errands?
Right before she'd come in and he kind of picked
(23:16):
up and he was like, how do you like working
with with Jane? And I'm like, uh, well, it's kind
of Tubby's like try again. I'm like, she's one of
the most negative people I've ever met, and he's like, yeah,
I totally get that. I'm the same way and um,
and so he actually if he has something for me
to do, he usually tries to set it for when
she's around to have me go out. And that's kind
of why I've taken lunch is there too, because it
(23:36):
gives me a break and then but like she has
to come in the office and the way that it's
set up is the same. Though. I'm really fortunate that
there are there is an angle where I could be
talking to my boss too, because he's i mean, even
just the last last week, I went on a break
and he needed me to do something. As I was
coming back for my break, and he was on the
phone with me outside of the office and he was like,
(23:58):
I can hear in your voice you're frustrated. Take longer break,
And he's like, don't go back to the office till
like half an hour from now, and just gave me
a free paid break and basically it was like, just
don't worry about it, and it's he's very good about
paying attention to work life balance that way, and just
just like, don't worry about it. It's cool that way,
you can be in a good space by the time
she leaves. And he was totally helpful. So that's probably
(24:21):
the closest thing to changes that could be made, got it.
I like your boss at least in this right. Yeah,
he's great, he's so Yeah, he's awesome. Yeah. I mean
if she were, if she were daily and you were
having to do this daily, I would be really curious
about why he keeps her on because I would say
this is worth changing bookkeepers over. But I can kind
of see it if he doesn't have that much interaction
(24:42):
and you're with a great bookkeeper, Yeah, I mean what
she's she's technically fantastic and she doesn't interact with anybody
with me, so she's pretty great for everyone else. Then
it's not anything. I mean, he calls, he always calls,
he takes what I've noticed, he has one phone call
he makes to her every time she comes, and he
like he listens and talks to her, and she does
(25:02):
the same thing with him on the phone with me
right there, I'll listen to I'll hear it, and uh yeah,
he does one and then he's done, and that he
doesn't pick up calls from the office except he knows
I'm in there, So I think he has the same problem.
People are very strange. Well, so that's basically my advice.
(25:25):
Under ordinary circumstances, I would have a lot of confidence
in it, except that, because you have tried all of
these other very logical things to try without success, I
am less confident in it than I normally would be.
But I think that because this is about really directly
telling her, like, hey, I need you to cut this out.
Maybe it'll go better than the previous things have. Yeah,
(25:47):
and you know, I kind of said even before we
started recording that, like, if the answer to this was
you know, there's no option here, you're just going to
have to deal with it twice a month and be
like I told you, I was like, it's fine if
that's the result, because I totally get this is really
a more difficult situation. But I feel like what you've
given me is really helpful because, um, it's something that
(26:07):
can at least make it better, which is totally great
because you know it is only twice a month and
we can I can always make it a little bring
it from a ten to a four, and that's going
to make a huge difference. Good. And I think that's
a healthy attitude to have about its manager expectations. Yeah, well,
thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank
(26:28):
you for having me. This is so helpful. Thanks for
listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast. If you'd like
to come on the show to talk through your own question,
email it to podcast at Asking Manager dot org, or
you can leave a recording of your question by calling
eight five five six work. That's eight five five f
T six nine seven five. You can get more ask
a Manager at ask a Manager dot org or in
(26:49):
my book Ask a Manager how to Navigate clueless colleagues,
lunch stealing bosses, and the rest of your life at work.
They Ask a Manager Show is a partnership with How
Stuff Works and is produced by Paul Decktt. If you
liked what you heard, please take a minute to subscribe,
rate and review the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify or
Google Play. I'm Alison Green and I'll be back next
week with another one of your questions. M.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!