March 27, 2019 • 28 mins
An employee who lied to get a reference, avoiding hugs, and lots more.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything. I get my
assistant racist eyes at people and meeting Why does my
coworker keep taking credit for all my idea? Have any
wisdom for me? Hi, I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the
Aska Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life
at work. Everything from what to say if you're allergic
to your coworkers perfume to what to do if you
drink too much at the company party. Let's get started, Hi,
(00:28):
and welcome to the show. If you listened all the
way to the end of last week's episode, you heard
me say that this week's show will be the final
episode of the Asking Manager Podcast. I will talk more
towards the end of this episode about why I made
that decision, But first, we have a bunch of interesting
questions from callers to tackle, and here is the first one. Hi,
(00:49):
Alice and I really enjoy the show. And Uh, I
wanted to run it scenario by you that happened to
a friend of mine the other day. He told me
that one of his direct reports had asked him for
a reference for a part time weekend gig to make
some extra money. He said that this, Uh, this staff
(01:11):
member was a high performer. In fact, he kind of
used him as being one of the best, and so
therefore he didn't have any qualms about giving him a reference.
So fast forward to a few weeks later, and this
same employee is tendering his resignation and it turns out
that it is a full time job, and my friend
(01:35):
learns that he was lied to. That staff member lied
to him about it being a weekend job. My friend
feels betrayed, and he feels shame. He is saying that
they're now losing one of the best staff members, and
he has a mind to call back the woman in
(01:56):
HR the other job that he gave the reference to
and tell her what happened. What do you think he
should do? Should he call her or should he just
bite the bullet and take the loss. I'd love to
hear what you say about it. Thanks, great question. So first, no,
(02:16):
he definitely should not call the other employer. It's really
natural to be disappointed when a great employee leaves, and
I get that. It's weird to realize that the person
wasn't fully honest with him about what was going on
when he asked for the reference. But here's the thing.
It's generally not safe for people to be completely honest
(02:37):
with their managers when their job searching. My mail is
full of letters from people whose managers found out that
they were job searching, confronted them about it, and then
pushed them out earlier than they had planned to leave.
And that is a huge danger for people. And as
a manager, you've got to understand that people worry about that.
And even if you, as a manager, know that you
(03:00):
would never do that, your employees don't necessarily know that.
And really, even if they figure that you probably wouldn't
penalize them or push them out earlier than they want
to go, they might not feel like they can risk
even a tiny chance of that. I mean, this is
people's livelihoods that we're talking about, So the stakes are
really really high if they trust you and then it
(03:21):
turns out that they were wrong. So as a manager,
you've kind of just accept that people won't always feel
comfortable or safe letting you know when they're thinking about leaving.
It sounds like this employee was being pushed by the
new employer to get a reference from the current job,
which isn't cool, by the way, because of exactly what
I was just talking about. But some employers will do that,
(03:43):
they'll insist on talking to your current manager before they'll
make you an offer. And if that was what happened here,
then this guy was in a really difficult position. You know,
he obviously didn't feel like he could safely be honest
with her his boss, or he wasn't willing to trust
in that possibility for the reasons we are just talking about,
and so he came up with this cover story about
it being for a part time job. And it's pretty
(04:06):
understandable when you look at it like that. But while
I can understand your friend not being thrilled that he
was lied to, he's got to look at the bigger
picture here. You know, the employee did it because he
didn't feel safe potentially putting his job on the line.
That is understandable. It's not a huge betrayal. Your friends
should understand why he did it, and he should wish
him well. He definitely should not, under any circumstances, contact
(04:30):
the other employer to report this. That would be just
incredibly crappy to do, and frankly, he'd probably come off
really strangely to the other employer. Plus there's another audience
for stuff like this, and that is your friends, other employees.
If the rest of his staff here that he tried
to sabotage someone's new job, that's going to destroy any
(04:54):
trust that they had in him. I mean, if he's
upset that this guy didn't trust him enough to tell
him that he was job searching, no one will ever
tell him anything sensitive again if he does that, So
he really can't do that. The best thing that he
can do here is to apologize to the employee if
he was anything other than gracious when he got his resignation,
and wish him well and mean it sincerely. Because if
(05:17):
he wants to be upset with anything here, be upset
with the system that forces job seekers into this kind
of position. Okay, here is the next call. I work
at a company where the entry level role requires a
lot of training to become independent. Typically it's a full
six months of a senior person's time before they can
work on their own. Because of this intense amount of training,
(05:40):
we generally try to weed out people interested in grad
school during the interview process. Despite that effort, I overheard
one of the newest people on my team say that
he's studying for the g r E, which tells me
he's likely trying to get into grad school next year.
I'm totally okay with people pursuing grad school if that's
what's best for their career, but given the amount of
(06:02):
time it takes to train someone for the role, it's
frustrating to have people leave for grad school only a
year after they start, and this happens quite frequently. I
think this is partly due to the role not being
the most glamorous, and also due to the fact that
the role requires very smart people but doesn't pay that much,
something which I don't have any control over. My question
(06:22):
has several parts. Firstly, for this particular person, if we
talk to him and it turns out he's planning on
leaving in nine months or less, is it okay to
limit his responsibilities or would that be unethical? It would
make sense to train him on fewer things, so we
don't spend a lot of time on the more complex
tasks that he will only use for a short period. However,
(06:44):
that would then of course limit his possibilities for growth,
and I'm not sure that's technically allowable, And we would also,
i'm sure, lose any opportunity to convince him it would
be worthwhile to stay. Secondly, for the future. What are
some things we can do to stop this situation happening?
Is it okay to explicitly ask people during the interview
process if they intend to go to grad school and
(07:06):
tell them we are not interested in candidates planning to
go to grad school in the next two years. In
a company where I don't have control over the salary,
is there anything I can do to either hire people
who intend to stay or to encourage people to stay
instead of going back to school right away. Okay, this
is tricky. It is absolutely true that there are jobs
(07:28):
where it really doesn't make sense to invest in training
someone if they're going to leave for grad school in
a year or for any other reason in a year.
There are jobs where it really does take like nine
months or longer before you're really comfortable with the work
and where you know what you're doing. And if it's
that kind of job, it doesn't make sense to bring
someone on knowing that they're going to leave before they're
(07:50):
fully trained and before your investment in them has paid off.
On the other hand, though, you also can't really require
people to make rock solid commitments to you if you,
as the employer, aren't willing to do that in return.
Most employers in the US don't use contracts and can
let someone go at any time, and so in that context,
(08:12):
it's not entirely fair to say, we want you to
commit to us for two years, but we're not going
to make a real commitment in return. Now, I realize
that you're not asking anyone to put anything in writing
on their side, so it's that's not a perfect comparison.
But in general, you want to keep in mind that
in any employment relationship without a contract that spells out
(08:34):
how long both sides are committing for, you've got to
be okay to some extent with people leaving earlier than
you would like if that turns out to be what's
best for them. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing
you can do here. It's reasonable to explain in your
hiring process that you're looking for people who will hopefully
stay in the role for a minimum of two years,
and you can explain why, and you can also say
(08:58):
this role tends to attract people were thinking about grad school,
and so we would ask that if that is your plan,
we'd ask that you not pursue this particular role because
we really need someone who will be here for at
least a couple of years. That doesn't mean that it
won't happen anyway. Some people will agree to that, but
then their lives will change and plans will change, and
months in they will realize that they do want to
(09:19):
apply to grad school now. And you can't totally avoid
that ever happening. But by saying it explicitly during the
hiring process, some people will weed themselves out or think
more carefully about what they're committing to. And then if
it does turn out that someone has decided to apply
to grad school while they're still early on with you,
there is nothing wrong with deciding that you're going to
(09:39):
do what's best for you business wise in terms of
what projects you give them and how you train them
and how you invest in them. I would just make
sure that they are indeed applying, don't rely on the
rumor mill for this, and also be transparent with them.
Tell them what you're doing so that they don't notice
that they're being given different projects and draw their own
conclusions about why. So you could say something like I
(10:02):
absolutely support you and going to grad school if that's
what's right for you, but I also want to be
transparent with you that it doesn't make sense for us
to invest the amount of time that we would need
to invest in training you in X. If your plans
change and you plan to stay, I would love to
get you onto that track, but given that we have
limited resources, it doesn't make sense to invest them in
training in this right now. So let's focus on Y
(10:25):
and Z instead. And you asked if that is technically allowable,
which I think is you asking if it's legal, And yes,
it is perfectly legal to do that. Let's take a
short break here and then when we come back, we
have a question about fending off unwanted hugs and lots more. Hi, Alison,
(10:52):
my name is Jenna. I was diagnosed with a very
serious health concern back in July. And at the time
that I was diagnosed UM, I had told several people
at my work and of course, as it goes, it
went around like wildfire, which I expected, and early on
(11:13):
in my diagnosis people would come up to me at
my work and hug me. You know, hey, I heard
I'm sorry to hear this and give me a hug,
and at the time I was uncomfortable with it. But
I understood that that was what people were going to do.
But now I'm three and a half months down the
road and I'm in treatment for things, and I'm still
(11:36):
being approached by people who want to hug me. And
I know this is silly. It's definitely not sexual harassment
or anything like that. So I don't feel like I
need to go to HR. But I don't know how
to decline a hug from somebody. I know it sounds weird.
(11:56):
I don't want to be hugged one. I don't wanna,
you know, I want to avoid contact because of you
know terms, and also it's just okay, I'm ready to
move on. I don't want this to be what I'm
known for. I don't want it to be the focus
of my work life. How do I make sure that
(12:19):
everyone respects that boundary and doesn't hug me against my will?
And I don't want it to sound like it's a
real serious issue, but it is a problem for me.
I don't like it, thank you. It's totally understandable that
you don't want to be hugged at work all the time,
especially in the context of sympathy. I mean, sympathy, of course,
(12:43):
can be a lovely thing, but it sounds at this
point like it's just too much. It's completely reasonable that
you want to shut down those hugs. It's not silly.
I mean, it wouldn't be silly even if this weren't
connected to your illness. If you just were getting a
lot of unwanted hugs and you wanted them to stop,
that would be completely legitimate. But then add in on
top of that that it's sort of keeping you constantly
(13:05):
in this role as the sick person who's the recipient
of people's sympathy. And of course that's something that you
might feel you don't want at work and would prefer
to shut down. So I don't think you're being silly
at all. I think there are a few things that
you can do. One is, when you see someone going
in for a hug, you can just say, oh, you know,
(13:25):
I'm really not a hugger, and you can even laugh
about it a little. You know, people keep trying to
hug me. It's so kind of them, but it's actually
my nightmare. That's what I would say, or I probably
should have said it earlier when everyone started enveloping me
and hugs all the time. Or you can skip that,
and you can just stick with I'm not a hugger,
but thank you so much for being so nice, or
(13:46):
as an alternative, you mentioned that one of the reasons
you don't want to hug is because you're avoiding germs,
and so you possibly could lean into that and say, oh,
I'm not hugging because of germs, but it's very likely
that people are going to read that as connected with
your health can shion, and that might reinforce this exact
thing that you're trying to get them to not have
such a focus on. But if you have like one
(14:06):
or two really aggressive huggers who you can tell aren't
going to accept that you just don't like hugging because
those people are out there, you might try the germ
thing with them and it might be more successful in
shutting them down. But really it's okay to just say, oh,
I'm not a hugger. And if you're worried about that
feeling maybe a little chilly, which it shouldn't, but you
(14:27):
might worry about it, just follow it up with something warm,
you know, Ask how they're doing, Ask about their new
puppy or their kid, or how that meeting went yesterday,
or just anything else that demonstrates that you're taking an
interest in them, not rejecting them as a person. And
it might feel a little awkward the first few times,
but just remind yourself that anyone who is truly kind,
(14:48):
I really wouldn't want to be forcing unwanted hugs on
someone and making them uncomfortable, So speak up and it
should be fine. I hope that helps. Okay, here's the
next call. Hey, Allison. Um So, I have been job
hunting for over a year while unemployed, and after many,
many rejections and a short time temping, I'm finally starting
(15:10):
to see the pattern. Um So, every place I've gotten
an interview, I make it to the second or third
round of interviews after one or even two phone interviews
before hearing no or literally just not hearing anything at all,
which is very frustrating, but I know I shouldn't take personally.
I've honestly lost count, but I'd say, um I've gotten
(15:33):
to this point with probably ten serious perspective positions in
the last year. In fact, this whole year, I've never
had just one interview. It's always been multiples, which I
guess is a good sign. But I've received no feedback
other than other candidates were more qualified. So I wonder
if I'm just qualified enough to be considered as kind
of an outlier but not really hirable. Um As I
(15:55):
often see the same positions I applied for reposted after
I hear now. So I do my homework, I prepare,
I practice, I keep fine tuning my resume and my
cover letters. I'm definitely not suffering from overconfidence. In fact,
I'm worried that I'm starting to give off kind of
a defeated and depleted vibe to potential employers in that
(16:16):
final round, and that's what's making them pass on me. Um.
I don't have the money to get certified in something
or return to school. Um. Should I be aiming slightly
lower to build experience or should I embrace underemployment and
start wrestling up more side gigs? Um? I love the
blog in the show, It's been really helpful to me
on my unemployment search, both with sound advice and heavy
(16:40):
dose of schatten Ford. And one last thing I'm hoping
you can weigh in on. So my grandma is convinced
that I'm not getting a job because I wear my
hair in a bun like a top knot, and I'm
a nervous hair player, and I like put it up
and put it down and fess with it. And I
feel like having it up is better than me playing
(17:00):
with it. Um, So I just wanted to get your
thoughts on that. Thank you well. I do not think
the issue is your hair. Having your hair up in
a bun is a super normal hairstyle. It's perfectly professional,
and in fact, it's so normal and professional that I
am wondering if it's something different the one and picturing
you also said top not, So I'm wondering if it's
something more like remember Bam Bam on the Flintstones, where
(17:24):
it's kind of shooting up from the top of her
head and like a fountain of hair. If it's more
like that, then yeah, it's gonna be too messy for
most interviews. And so I would agree with your grandma.
But if you're getting second and third interviews, I really
doubt that your hair is the reason that they're not
hiring you. But if it's your standard bun, then no,
I mean, that is just nothing to second guess. And
(17:46):
I want to talk more with your grandma to to
hear what it is that she objects to about it,
although I probably should not because if she is bothered
by a bun, she's going to be horrified by the
state of my own hair. Anyway, I don't think your
hair is the issue. I actually think it sounds like
you're doing pretty well, even though I know that you're frustrated.
You're getting a lot of interviews and you're getting called back,
so clearly the problem isn't your resume or your cover
(18:08):
letter or your overall experience relative to the jobs that
you're applying for, and because you're getting second and third
interviews too, I don't think it's something glaring that you're
doing in the interviews, Like if you were terrible at
interviewing or came across really oddly, or we're offending your
interviewers in some way, you wouldn't be getting asked back
(18:29):
to those second and third interviews. I mean, maybe one
or two companies would be really open minded and give
you another shot, But this has happened with ten different
companies in the last year, So I just don't think
it's that. I think you're probably fine, and you're interviewing fine,
and you're just having bad luck. Someone else is stronger
and beats you out, or you're just not the exact
right match that they're looking for. But you know, if
(18:52):
I'm on a third interview with a candidate, they're pretty
damn strong, especially relative to the rest of the candidate
pool for the position. I'm not interviewing people just to
waste my time. Or there's they like you and they
see strengths in you, and that is why they're calling
you back. If it were just one or two companies,
maybe we could come up with some alternate explanation. But
with ten no, I just I don't think so. So
(19:16):
you said that you're worried that you're giving off a
defeated vibe by the last interview, and I wonder if
you really are feeling that way on final interviews, because
if you are, then yes, that could be showing or
it could just be affecting your energy or like your
effect or the way you come across. And I know
it's really hard to control that if you're feeling that way,
(19:36):
but definitely definitely pay a lot of attention to that.
One other thing that you could try is contacting any
recent interviewers who you felt you had pretty good rapport
with and ask if they can give you any insight
into how you could be a stronger candidate for similar
jobs in the future. Not for them, but for similar jobs,
because sometimes people are more likely to give feedback when
(19:57):
they don't feel like they're leading you to think, Oh,
if I changed this one thing, then the next time
I apply with this person, they'll hire me. You could
even say something like, you know, to be candid with you,
I've been getting to the finalist stages for a bunch
of jobs like this, and I'm wondering if there's something
that I'm inadvertently doing or not doing that might be
getting in my way. And I'd be so grateful if
(20:17):
you were willing to take a minute and give me
any insider or advice that you might have. Do that
via email, not a phone call, because you don't want
to put people on the spot. But this is a
totally okay thing to ask. I have candidates asked me
this all the time. I don't always give them a
super useful answer because sometimes there really isn't any answer
other than you know, you were good, but it was
(20:37):
really competitive and someone else was stronger. But it's still
worth asking. And even what I just said, even that
is sometimes useful to hear, and especially with the jobs
where they rejected you but are still advertising and so
they don't seem to have filled it yet in that case,
like it's it's not just that someone else was better.
It might be especially interesting if you can get feedback
(20:58):
from them about those But you know, sometimes it really
does just come down to something that's out of your control.
Like during the interview process they realized they really need
someone with more of a background at X and your
background is and why. But try asking for feedback. Not
everyone will give it to you, but some will, and
it's worth asking. But the fact that you're getting to
(21:19):
the finalist stage for so many positions, it tells me
that you're not applying for the wrong types of jobs.
You've probably just got to keep going and sooner or
later one of these is going to pan out. I know,
it's really frustrating. Meanwhile, though, I mean sometimes it's almost
easier if you can realize, so there is this thing
but I've been doing wrong, because then you have something
to fix. But I would say, just hang in there.
(21:40):
We'll go to our final break here and when we
come back. We have a question about being sent on
a business trip but being expected to pay your own expenses. Hey, Allison,
I work for a very small company that in many
ways is still in start up mode, with lean budgets
(22:03):
and very few formalized policies. Every year, a small group
of employees travel thousands of miles to participate in an
industry trade show. Last year was my first time going
on the trip. While there, it became apparent that everyone
was expected to pay for their own food, to chip
in for dinner, by their own morning coffee, and so on.
I was so stunned to discover this that I didn't
(22:25):
say anything in the moment and just played along and
paid along. Over the course of the five day trip,
I probably spent a hundred and fifty to two hundred
dollars of my own money that I would not have
spent at home. I never brought it up even after
the trip was over, and I now regret that. But
the trade show is around the corner again, and I'd
like to know how to broach it with my boss.
(22:45):
I'm not sure if she doesn't know that it's standard
practice to cover expenses, which would be consistent with some
other things I've observed, or if she thinks the company
shouldn't have to cover it either way, I would like
to avoid paying for food again if possible. What's the
best way to address this? Thanks so much. Yeah, it's
pretty standard to cover meals during business travel. The idea
(23:08):
is that you shouldn't lose money just because you have
to travel for work. Work travel shouldn't cost you anything,
and you're probably not eating out three meals a day
at home the way you will be when you travel,
so that is why meals are typically covered. I suspect
that you're right that this is about this being a
small company that's still in startup mode, and maybe about
your boss being inexperienced and unfamiliar with with how companies
(23:31):
normally handle this sort of thing. So yeah, talk to
your boss ahead of this next trip. Tell her that
you had to spend two hundred dollars of your own
money last time, many that you would not have spent
if you had stayed at home, And I would say
something like this before this next trip, could we formalize
policies about expense reimbursement for travel? Last year, I ended
(23:51):
up spending about two hundred dollars on meals that I
wouldn't have spent at home. And I know typically these
sorts of expenses are reimbursed during business trips. Ideally, I
would love it if we could formalize some arrangements for
submitting expenses for business travel. But if there's not time
for that before we leave, can you tell me what
you'll need for me in order for me to get
those expenses covered. So the way that you're wording this,
(24:14):
it's not will you please consider maybe reimbursing this? It's
this is a standard practice, and what do I need
to submit to get it handled? But if she pushes
back and says that you're all expected to pitch in
for your own expenses or some bs like that, then
you can say, huh, can I ask for that to
be reconsidered, because otherwise it's going to cost us all
(24:35):
money to do business travel, which doesn't seem right, and
it would be really at odds with how other companies
handle this. If your boss is unreasonable and you expect
a fight over this, then before you talk to her,
I would actually talk with some coworkers so that you
can approach her about it as a group. That is
going to make it harder for her to brush you off.
And really, this is such a normal thing to ask
(24:56):
for and to expect that you really should be able
to speak up about it. One caveat, though, I might
not push for the coffees to be reimbursed if if
she's resistant to focus on meals, because that's an easier sell.
Every decent company does cover meals, but some don't cover
extras like coffee. All right, those are our calls. I
(25:16):
promised I would talk more at the end of the
episode about my decision to you and the show, And
actually I was hoping that a color would have left
a message about burnout to use in this episode, because
I figured that would be a great tie in, but
I didn't have one. Basically, though, this is a case
of me needing to take my own advice. I have
been overscheduled and over worked for quite some time now.
(25:37):
When you work for yourself and you have a lot
of work coming your way, it's I think it's very
easy to think, well, I have all these opportunities now
that who knows how long it's gonna last. It could
all dry up next year, and so I had better
take advantage of it now. Any freelancers out there probably
know what I'm talking about, And for years I dealt
with this by just taking on as much work as
I could possibly do, which has meant that for a
(25:58):
lot of the time, I've been working just way too
much and barely seeing friends or family. And you know,
I'm actually not convinced that is a terrible way to
go for a short time, but it's not sustainable in
the long term. And so for a while now, I've
been trying to figure out how do I make more
room in my life for things that are not work,
(26:18):
And I've had a pretty hard time doing it because
I like my work. I like everything that I'm doing,
and it's hard to cut something out. I've gotten pretty
good at saying no to new things, and it's saying
no to small things, but it hasn't been making enough
of a difference. And in my capacity as a work
advice columnist, I have advised other people in this situation
(26:38):
plenty of times when people came to me with this
type of problem, I talk about getting really, really clear
and what is important to you in life, and being
brutally honest about the trade offs that you're making, and
that you can't just have wishful thinking and plan to
do it all. When you do try to do it all,
something suffers. Maybe it's your work, maybe it's your relationships,
maybe it's your sleep, maybe it's health. And so I
(27:01):
have accepted that I need to take that advice myself.
And so here we are with me wrapping up the
podcast to get more breathing room back. But I want
to say I have loved doing the show, and I'm
so grateful to the amazing people at how Stuff Works
for making it happen, and to the people who called
in with questions and let us dissect them, and to
all of you for listening. Thank you so much for
(27:23):
letting me do this very fun thing with you. I
will still be answering letters all the time at the
Aska Manager website, so if you want more ask a
Manager there will still be plenty there every day at
ask a Manager dot org. Well that's the show. Thank
you for listening. You can get more ask a Manager
at ask a Manager dot org or in my book
(27:45):
Ask a Manager How to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses,
and the rest of your life at work. The Aska
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My colleagues. We'll stop commenting on everything. I get my
assistant racist eyes at people and meeting Why does my
coworker keep taking credit for all my idea? Have any
wisdom for me? Hi, I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the
Aska Manager Podcast. Right answer questions from listeners about life
at work. Everything from what to say if you're allergic
to your coworkers perfume to what to do if you
drink too much at the company party. Let's get started, Hi,
(00:28):
and welcome to the show. If you listened all the
way to the end of last week's episode, you heard
me say that this week's show will be the final
episode of the Asking Manager Podcast. I will talk more
towards the end of this episode about why I made
that decision, But first, we have a bunch of interesting
questions from callers to tackle, and here is the first one. Hi,
(00:49):
Alice and I really enjoy the show. And Uh, I
wanted to run it scenario by you that happened to
a friend of mine the other day. He told me
that one of his direct reports had asked him for
a reference for a part time weekend gig to make
some extra money. He said that this, Uh, this staff
(01:11):
member was a high performer. In fact, he kind of
used him as being one of the best, and so
therefore he didn't have any qualms about giving him a reference.
So fast forward to a few weeks later, and this
same employee is tendering his resignation and it turns out
that it is a full time job, and my friend
(01:35):
learns that he was lied to. That staff member lied
to him about it being a weekend job. My friend
feels betrayed, and he feels shame. He is saying that
they're now losing one of the best staff members, and
he has a mind to call back the woman in
(01:56):
HR the other job that he gave the reference to
and tell her what happened. What do you think he
should do? Should he call her or should he just
bite the bullet and take the loss. I'd love to
hear what you say about it. Thanks, great question. So first, no,
(02:16):
he definitely should not call the other employer. It's really
natural to be disappointed when a great employee leaves, and
I get that. It's weird to realize that the person
wasn't fully honest with him about what was going on
when he asked for the reference. But here's the thing.
It's generally not safe for people to be completely honest
(02:37):
with their managers when their job searching. My mail is
full of letters from people whose managers found out that
they were job searching, confronted them about it, and then
pushed them out earlier than they had planned to leave.
And that is a huge danger for people. And as
a manager, you've got to understand that people worry about that.
And even if you, as a manager, know that you
(03:00):
would never do that, your employees don't necessarily know that.
And really, even if they figure that you probably wouldn't
penalize them or push them out earlier than they want
to go, they might not feel like they can risk
even a tiny chance of that. I mean, this is
people's livelihoods that we're talking about, So the stakes are
really really high if they trust you and then it
(03:21):
turns out that they were wrong. So as a manager,
you've kind of just accept that people won't always feel
comfortable or safe letting you know when they're thinking about leaving.
It sounds like this employee was being pushed by the
new employer to get a reference from the current job,
which isn't cool, by the way, because of exactly what
I was just talking about. But some employers will do that,
(03:43):
they'll insist on talking to your current manager before they'll
make you an offer. And if that was what happened here,
then this guy was in a really difficult position. You know,
he obviously didn't feel like he could safely be honest
with her his boss, or he wasn't willing to trust
in that possibility for the reasons we are just talking about,
and so he came up with this cover story about
it being for a part time job. And it's pretty
(04:06):
understandable when you look at it like that. But while
I can understand your friend not being thrilled that he
was lied to, he's got to look at the bigger
picture here. You know, the employee did it because he
didn't feel safe potentially putting his job on the line.
That is understandable. It's not a huge betrayal. Your friends
should understand why he did it, and he should wish
him well. He definitely should not, under any circumstances, contact
(04:30):
the other employer to report this. That would be just
incredibly crappy to do, and frankly, he'd probably come off
really strangely to the other employer. Plus there's another audience
for stuff like this, and that is your friends, other employees.
If the rest of his staff here that he tried
to sabotage someone's new job, that's going to destroy any
(04:54):
trust that they had in him. I mean, if he's
upset that this guy didn't trust him enough to tell
him that he was job searching, no one will ever
tell him anything sensitive again if he does that, So
he really can't do that. The best thing that he
can do here is to apologize to the employee if
he was anything other than gracious when he got his resignation,
and wish him well and mean it sincerely. Because if
(05:17):
he wants to be upset with anything here, be upset
with the system that forces job seekers into this kind
of position. Okay, here is the next call. I work
at a company where the entry level role requires a
lot of training to become independent. Typically it's a full
six months of a senior person's time before they can
work on their own. Because of this intense amount of training,
(05:40):
we generally try to weed out people interested in grad
school during the interview process. Despite that effort, I overheard
one of the newest people on my team say that
he's studying for the g r E, which tells me
he's likely trying to get into grad school next year.
I'm totally okay with people pursuing grad school if that's
what's best for their career, but given the amount of
(06:02):
time it takes to train someone for the role, it's
frustrating to have people leave for grad school only a
year after they start, and this happens quite frequently. I
think this is partly due to the role not being
the most glamorous, and also due to the fact that
the role requires very smart people but doesn't pay that much,
something which I don't have any control over. My question
(06:22):
has several parts. Firstly, for this particular person, if we
talk to him and it turns out he's planning on
leaving in nine months or less, is it okay to
limit his responsibilities or would that be unethical? It would
make sense to train him on fewer things, so we
don't spend a lot of time on the more complex
tasks that he will only use for a short period. However,
(06:44):
that would then of course limit his possibilities for growth,
and I'm not sure that's technically allowable, And we would also,
i'm sure, lose any opportunity to convince him it would
be worthwhile to stay. Secondly, for the future. What are
some things we can do to stop this situation happening?
Is it okay to explicitly ask people during the interview
process if they intend to go to grad school and
(07:06):
tell them we are not interested in candidates planning to
go to grad school in the next two years. In
a company where I don't have control over the salary,
is there anything I can do to either hire people
who intend to stay or to encourage people to stay
instead of going back to school right away. Okay, this
is tricky. It is absolutely true that there are jobs
(07:28):
where it really doesn't make sense to invest in training
someone if they're going to leave for grad school in
a year or for any other reason in a year.
There are jobs where it really does take like nine
months or longer before you're really comfortable with the work
and where you know what you're doing. And if it's
that kind of job, it doesn't make sense to bring
someone on knowing that they're going to leave before they're
(07:50):
fully trained and before your investment in them has paid off.
On the other hand, though, you also can't really require
people to make rock solid commitments to you if you,
as the employer, aren't willing to do that in return.
Most employers in the US don't use contracts and can
let someone go at any time, and so in that context,
(08:12):
it's not entirely fair to say, we want you to
commit to us for two years, but we're not going
to make a real commitment in return. Now, I realize
that you're not asking anyone to put anything in writing
on their side, so it's that's not a perfect comparison.
But in general, you want to keep in mind that
in any employment relationship without a contract that spells out
(08:34):
how long both sides are committing for, you've got to
be okay to some extent with people leaving earlier than
you would like if that turns out to be what's
best for them. But that doesn't mean that there's nothing
you can do here. It's reasonable to explain in your
hiring process that you're looking for people who will hopefully
stay in the role for a minimum of two years,
and you can explain why, and you can also say
(08:58):
this role tends to attract people were thinking about grad school,
and so we would ask that if that is your plan,
we'd ask that you not pursue this particular role because
we really need someone who will be here for at
least a couple of years. That doesn't mean that it
won't happen anyway. Some people will agree to that, but
then their lives will change and plans will change, and
months in they will realize that they do want to
(09:19):
apply to grad school now. And you can't totally avoid
that ever happening. But by saying it explicitly during the
hiring process, some people will weed themselves out or think
more carefully about what they're committing to. And then if
it does turn out that someone has decided to apply
to grad school while they're still early on with you,
there is nothing wrong with deciding that you're going to
(09:39):
do what's best for you business wise in terms of
what projects you give them and how you train them
and how you invest in them. I would just make
sure that they are indeed applying, don't rely on the
rumor mill for this, and also be transparent with them.
Tell them what you're doing so that they don't notice
that they're being given different projects and draw their own
conclusions about why. So you could say something like I
(10:02):
absolutely support you and going to grad school if that's
what's right for you, but I also want to be
transparent with you that it doesn't make sense for us
to invest the amount of time that we would need
to invest in training you in X. If your plans
change and you plan to stay, I would love to
get you onto that track, but given that we have
limited resources, it doesn't make sense to invest them in
training in this right now. So let's focus on Y
(10:25):
and Z instead. And you asked if that is technically allowable,
which I think is you asking if it's legal, And yes,
it is perfectly legal to do that. Let's take a
short break here and then when we come back, we
have a question about fending off unwanted hugs and lots more. Hi, Alison,
(10:52):
my name is Jenna. I was diagnosed with a very
serious health concern back in July. And at the time
that I was diagnosed UM, I had told several people
at my work and of course, as it goes, it
went around like wildfire, which I expected, and early on
(11:13):
in my diagnosis people would come up to me at
my work and hug me. You know, hey, I heard
I'm sorry to hear this and give me a hug,
and at the time I was uncomfortable with it. But
I understood that that was what people were going to do.
But now I'm three and a half months down the
road and I'm in treatment for things, and I'm still
(11:36):
being approached by people who want to hug me. And
I know this is silly. It's definitely not sexual harassment
or anything like that. So I don't feel like I
need to go to HR. But I don't know how
to decline a hug from somebody. I know it sounds weird.
(11:56):
I don't want to be hugged one. I don't wanna,
you know, I want to avoid contact because of you
know terms, and also it's just okay, I'm ready to
move on. I don't want this to be what I'm
known for. I don't want it to be the focus
of my work life. How do I make sure that
(12:19):
everyone respects that boundary and doesn't hug me against my will?
And I don't want it to sound like it's a
real serious issue, but it is a problem for me.
I don't like it, thank you. It's totally understandable that
you don't want to be hugged at work all the time,
especially in the context of sympathy. I mean, sympathy, of course,
(12:43):
can be a lovely thing, but it sounds at this
point like it's just too much. It's completely reasonable that
you want to shut down those hugs. It's not silly.
I mean, it wouldn't be silly even if this weren't
connected to your illness. If you just were getting a
lot of unwanted hugs and you wanted them to stop,
that would be completely legitimate. But then add in on
top of that that it's sort of keeping you constantly
(13:05):
in this role as the sick person who's the recipient
of people's sympathy. And of course that's something that you
might feel you don't want at work and would prefer
to shut down. So I don't think you're being silly
at all. I think there are a few things that
you can do. One is, when you see someone going
in for a hug, you can just say, oh, you know,
(13:25):
I'm really not a hugger, and you can even laugh
about it a little. You know, people keep trying to
hug me. It's so kind of them, but it's actually
my nightmare. That's what I would say, or I probably
should have said it earlier when everyone started enveloping me
and hugs all the time. Or you can skip that,
and you can just stick with I'm not a hugger,
but thank you so much for being so nice, or
(13:46):
as an alternative, you mentioned that one of the reasons
you don't want to hug is because you're avoiding germs,
and so you possibly could lean into that and say, oh,
I'm not hugging because of germs, but it's very likely
that people are going to read that as connected with
your health can shion, and that might reinforce this exact
thing that you're trying to get them to not have
such a focus on. But if you have like one
(14:06):
or two really aggressive huggers who you can tell aren't
going to accept that you just don't like hugging because
those people are out there, you might try the germ
thing with them and it might be more successful in
shutting them down. But really it's okay to just say, oh,
I'm not a hugger. And if you're worried about that
feeling maybe a little chilly, which it shouldn't, but you
(14:27):
might worry about it, just follow it up with something warm,
you know, Ask how they're doing, Ask about their new
puppy or their kid, or how that meeting went yesterday,
or just anything else that demonstrates that you're taking an
interest in them, not rejecting them as a person. And
it might feel a little awkward the first few times,
but just remind yourself that anyone who is truly kind,
(14:48):
I really wouldn't want to be forcing unwanted hugs on
someone and making them uncomfortable, So speak up and it
should be fine. I hope that helps. Okay, here's the
next call. Hey, Allison. Um So, I have been job
hunting for over a year while unemployed, and after many,
many rejections and a short time temping, I'm finally starting
(15:10):
to see the pattern. Um So, every place I've gotten
an interview, I make it to the second or third
round of interviews after one or even two phone interviews
before hearing no or literally just not hearing anything at all,
which is very frustrating, but I know I shouldn't take personally.
I've honestly lost count, but I'd say, um I've gotten
(15:33):
to this point with probably ten serious perspective positions in
the last year. In fact, this whole year, I've never
had just one interview. It's always been multiples, which I
guess is a good sign. But I've received no feedback
other than other candidates were more qualified. So I wonder
if I'm just qualified enough to be considered as kind
of an outlier but not really hirable. Um As I
(15:55):
often see the same positions I applied for reposted after
I hear now. So I do my homework, I prepare,
I practice, I keep fine tuning my resume and my
cover letters. I'm definitely not suffering from overconfidence. In fact,
I'm worried that I'm starting to give off kind of
a defeated and depleted vibe to potential employers in that
(16:16):
final round, and that's what's making them pass on me. Um.
I don't have the money to get certified in something
or return to school. Um. Should I be aiming slightly
lower to build experience or should I embrace underemployment and
start wrestling up more side gigs? Um? I love the
blog in the show, It's been really helpful to me
on my unemployment search, both with sound advice and heavy
(16:40):
dose of schatten Ford. And one last thing I'm hoping
you can weigh in on. So my grandma is convinced
that I'm not getting a job because I wear my
hair in a bun like a top knot, and I'm
a nervous hair player, and I like put it up
and put it down and fess with it. And I
feel like having it up is better than me playing
(17:00):
with it. Um, So I just wanted to get your
thoughts on that. Thank you well. I do not think
the issue is your hair. Having your hair up in
a bun is a super normal hairstyle. It's perfectly professional,
and in fact, it's so normal and professional that I
am wondering if it's something different the one and picturing
you also said top not, So I'm wondering if it's
something more like remember Bam Bam on the Flintstones, where
(17:24):
it's kind of shooting up from the top of her
head and like a fountain of hair. If it's more
like that, then yeah, it's gonna be too messy for
most interviews. And so I would agree with your grandma.
But if you're getting second and third interviews, I really
doubt that your hair is the reason that they're not
hiring you. But if it's your standard bun, then no,
I mean, that is just nothing to second guess. And
(17:46):
I want to talk more with your grandma to to
hear what it is that she objects to about it,
although I probably should not because if she is bothered
by a bun, she's going to be horrified by the
state of my own hair. Anyway, I don't think your
hair is the issue. I actually think it sounds like
you're doing pretty well, even though I know that you're frustrated.
You're getting a lot of interviews and you're getting called back,
so clearly the problem isn't your resume or your cover
(18:08):
letter or your overall experience relative to the jobs that
you're applying for, and because you're getting second and third
interviews too, I don't think it's something glaring that you're
doing in the interviews, Like if you were terrible at
interviewing or came across really oddly, or we're offending your
interviewers in some way, you wouldn't be getting asked back
(18:29):
to those second and third interviews. I mean, maybe one
or two companies would be really open minded and give
you another shot, But this has happened with ten different
companies in the last year, So I just don't think
it's that. I think you're probably fine, and you're interviewing fine,
and you're just having bad luck. Someone else is stronger
and beats you out, or you're just not the exact
right match that they're looking for. But you know, if
(18:52):
I'm on a third interview with a candidate, they're pretty
damn strong, especially relative to the rest of the candidate
pool for the position. I'm not interviewing people just to
waste my time. Or there's they like you and they
see strengths in you, and that is why they're calling
you back. If it were just one or two companies,
maybe we could come up with some alternate explanation. But
with ten no, I just I don't think so. So
(19:16):
you said that you're worried that you're giving off a
defeated vibe by the last interview, and I wonder if
you really are feeling that way on final interviews, because
if you are, then yes, that could be showing or
it could just be affecting your energy or like your
effect or the way you come across. And I know
it's really hard to control that if you're feeling that way,
(19:36):
but definitely definitely pay a lot of attention to that.
One other thing that you could try is contacting any
recent interviewers who you felt you had pretty good rapport
with and ask if they can give you any insight
into how you could be a stronger candidate for similar
jobs in the future. Not for them, but for similar jobs,
because sometimes people are more likely to give feedback when
(19:57):
they don't feel like they're leading you to think, Oh,
if I changed this one thing, then the next time
I apply with this person, they'll hire me. You could
even say something like, you know, to be candid with you,
I've been getting to the finalist stages for a bunch
of jobs like this, and I'm wondering if there's something
that I'm inadvertently doing or not doing that might be
getting in my way. And I'd be so grateful if
(20:17):
you were willing to take a minute and give me
any insider or advice that you might have. Do that
via email, not a phone call, because you don't want
to put people on the spot. But this is a
totally okay thing to ask. I have candidates asked me
this all the time. I don't always give them a
super useful answer because sometimes there really isn't any answer
other than you know, you were good, but it was
(20:37):
really competitive and someone else was stronger. But it's still
worth asking. And even what I just said, even that
is sometimes useful to hear, and especially with the jobs
where they rejected you but are still advertising and so
they don't seem to have filled it yet in that case,
like it's it's not just that someone else was better.
It might be especially interesting if you can get feedback
(20:58):
from them about those But you know, sometimes it really
does just come down to something that's out of your control.
Like during the interview process they realized they really need
someone with more of a background at X and your
background is and why. But try asking for feedback. Not
everyone will give it to you, but some will, and
it's worth asking. But the fact that you're getting to
(21:19):
the finalist stage for so many positions, it tells me
that you're not applying for the wrong types of jobs.
You've probably just got to keep going and sooner or
later one of these is going to pan out. I know,
it's really frustrating. Meanwhile, though, I mean sometimes it's almost
easier if you can realize, so there is this thing
but I've been doing wrong, because then you have something
to fix. But I would say, just hang in there.
(21:40):
We'll go to our final break here and when we
come back. We have a question about being sent on
a business trip but being expected to pay your own expenses. Hey, Allison,
I work for a very small company that in many
ways is still in start up mode, with lean budgets
(22:03):
and very few formalized policies. Every year, a small group
of employees travel thousands of miles to participate in an
industry trade show. Last year was my first time going
on the trip. While there, it became apparent that everyone
was expected to pay for their own food, to chip
in for dinner, by their own morning coffee, and so on.
I was so stunned to discover this that I didn't
(22:25):
say anything in the moment and just played along and
paid along. Over the course of the five day trip,
I probably spent a hundred and fifty to two hundred
dollars of my own money that I would not have
spent at home. I never brought it up even after
the trip was over, and I now regret that. But
the trade show is around the corner again, and I'd
like to know how to broach it with my boss.
(22:45):
I'm not sure if she doesn't know that it's standard
practice to cover expenses, which would be consistent with some
other things I've observed, or if she thinks the company
shouldn't have to cover it either way, I would like
to avoid paying for food again if possible. What's the
best way to address this? Thanks so much. Yeah, it's
pretty standard to cover meals during business travel. The idea
(23:08):
is that you shouldn't lose money just because you have
to travel for work. Work travel shouldn't cost you anything,
and you're probably not eating out three meals a day
at home the way you will be when you travel,
so that is why meals are typically covered. I suspect
that you're right that this is about this being a
small company that's still in startup mode, and maybe about
your boss being inexperienced and unfamiliar with with how companies
(23:31):
normally handle this sort of thing. So yeah, talk to
your boss ahead of this next trip. Tell her that
you had to spend two hundred dollars of your own
money last time, many that you would not have spent
if you had stayed at home, And I would say
something like this before this next trip, could we formalize
policies about expense reimbursement for travel? Last year, I ended
(23:51):
up spending about two hundred dollars on meals that I
wouldn't have spent at home. And I know typically these
sorts of expenses are reimbursed during business trips. Ideally, I
would love it if we could formalize some arrangements for
submitting expenses for business travel. But if there's not time
for that before we leave, can you tell me what
you'll need for me in order for me to get
those expenses covered. So the way that you're wording this,
(24:14):
it's not will you please consider maybe reimbursing this? It's
this is a standard practice, and what do I need
to submit to get it handled? But if she pushes
back and says that you're all expected to pitch in
for your own expenses or some bs like that, then
you can say, huh, can I ask for that to
be reconsidered, because otherwise it's going to cost us all
(24:35):
money to do business travel, which doesn't seem right, and
it would be really at odds with how other companies
handle this. If your boss is unreasonable and you expect
a fight over this, then before you talk to her,
I would actually talk with some coworkers so that you
can approach her about it as a group. That is
going to make it harder for her to brush you off.
And really, this is such a normal thing to ask
(24:56):
for and to expect that you really should be able
to speak up about it. One caveat, though, I might
not push for the coffees to be reimbursed if if
she's resistant to focus on meals, because that's an easier sell.
Every decent company does cover meals, but some don't cover
extras like coffee. All right, those are our calls. I
(25:16):
promised I would talk more at the end of the
episode about my decision to you and the show, And
actually I was hoping that a color would have left
a message about burnout to use in this episode, because
I figured that would be a great tie in, but
I didn't have one. Basically, though, this is a case
of me needing to take my own advice. I have
been overscheduled and over worked for quite some time now.
(25:37):
When you work for yourself and you have a lot
of work coming your way, it's I think it's very
easy to think, well, I have all these opportunities now
that who knows how long it's gonna last. It could
all dry up next year, and so I had better
take advantage of it now. Any freelancers out there probably
know what I'm talking about, And for years I dealt
with this by just taking on as much work as
I could possibly do, which has meant that for a
(25:58):
lot of the time, I've been working just way too
much and barely seeing friends or family. And you know,
I'm actually not convinced that is a terrible way to
go for a short time, but it's not sustainable in
the long term. And so for a while now, I've
been trying to figure out how do I make more
room in my life for things that are not work,
(26:18):
And I've had a pretty hard time doing it because
I like my work. I like everything that I'm doing,
and it's hard to cut something out. I've gotten pretty
good at saying no to new things, and it's saying
no to small things, but it hasn't been making enough
of a difference. And in my capacity as a work
advice columnist, I have advised other people in this situation
(26:38):
plenty of times when people came to me with this
type of problem, I talk about getting really, really clear
and what is important to you in life, and being
brutally honest about the trade offs that you're making, and
that you can't just have wishful thinking and plan to
do it all. When you do try to do it all,
something suffers. Maybe it's your work, maybe it's your relationships,
maybe it's your sleep, maybe it's health. And so I
(27:01):
have accepted that I need to take that advice myself.
And so here we are with me wrapping up the
podcast to get more breathing room back. But I want
to say I have loved doing the show, and I'm
so grateful to the amazing people at how Stuff Works
for making it happen, and to the people who called
in with questions and let us dissect them, and to
all of you for listening. Thank you so much for
(27:23):
letting me do this very fun thing with you. I
will still be answering letters all the time at the
Aska Manager website, so if you want more ask a
Manager there will still be plenty there every day at
ask a Manager dot org. Well that's the show. Thank
you for listening. You can get more ask a Manager
at ask a Manager dot org or in my book
(27:45):
Ask a Manager How to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses,
and the rest of your life at work. The Aska
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