December 5, 2018 • 25 mins
The principles that you use when you’re hiring adults don’t always work when you’re talking to teenagers. Alison talks with a summer camp owner who hires lots of teens about how interviewing teens is a whole different world.
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Speaker 1 (00:03):
My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything. I get my
asses at people and meeting? Why does my coworker keep
taking credit for all my idea? Have any wisdom for me? Hi,
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Ask a Manager podcast.
Right answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
perfume to what to do if you drink too much
(00:23):
at the company party. Let's get started. I talk a
lot at Ask a Manager about how to hire good
employees and how to convince an interviewer to hire you.
There are a lot of things that we take as
givens when we talk about job searching and interviewing, like
that you have some idea of what you're good at
and what you're not so good at. We assume that
(00:44):
because we're usually talking about adults who have some amount
of work experience and life experience for that matter. But
what about when you're hiring teenagers. It turns out the
principles that you use when you're hiring adults don't always
work when you're talking to teenagers who may never have
had a job before Today. We're joined by Sue Bell
who co owns Melissa and Sue Camps, which puts on
(01:06):
different kinds of summer camps, and she's interviewed tons of
teenagers for jobs as camp counselors. Hi, Sue, thanks for
coming on the show. Hi also thanks so much for
having me. So you have a bunch of experience interviewing
and hiring teenagers, and you have some really fascinating observations
about how that can be different from hiring adults. So
(01:27):
let's start there. What are some of the differences between
interviewing a teenager and interviewing an adult. Well, I think
the main difference is that adults come into the situation
sort of game ready, if you know what I mean.
They have They've probably interviewed themselves in the car on
the way over to the interview. They've thought about all
the great things are going to say about themselves, and
(01:47):
they're ready to put their best foot forward. And I
think teenagers, although a hampton ready for the interview, they
they first of all, don't have the experience and so
and so they don't know what took back, which you
can also be a very nerve racking situation. But not
only that, they don't they don't know themselves enough to
(02:08):
to be able to be forthright about all these amazing
things that they could do. So what ends up happening
is that I end up trying to draw out a
lot of their qualities or a lot of the things
that they'd be great at, you know. And it seems
to be a bit tricky, Whereas adults sit down and
they're like, I'm great at this and this and this,
and wait till you see me do this, and I'm
the best person for the job, and a teenager sort
(02:29):
of looks at you like help, how do you get
them to open up enough so that you can get
a real sense of who they are. I think one
of the tricks that my business partner and I use
is just to have a normal conversation at the beginning.
And what we do is spend the beginning part of
the of the interview talking about our business and what
(02:50):
we believe to be our favorite parts of the business
and and what we're looking for. So we're giving them
the platform to insert their great abilities into what we're
looking for. So, for example, we would say something like
we're looking for someone who could be really great at
entertaining the kids all by themselves while we, you know,
(03:12):
diffuse some sort of parents situation or something like that.
You know someone who could sing songs or play a
game or something like that, so that their response could
be I'm really great at singing songs with kids. Great
check and then we could say what would you do
in that situation, and then they could sort of play
out exactly what they would do. Ye do you ever
(03:34):
get anyone I'm thinking back to something you said a
minute or two ago. When you're talking about adults, when
you're interviewing them, sometimes they come in and they're running
through all their strengths and they're telling you all the
things that they're great at, and sometimes it's kind of
puffed up and and and not strictly true. Do you
run into that with teenagers or is that more of
an adult problem? I will say that generally the teenagers
(03:57):
end up surprising us more with all of their awesomeness
than perhaps the adults to do. Do you know what
I mean? The adults will give you all the things
they're great at, so there's not a lot of room
for you to to um set bigger expectations. They have
a they have a farther place to fall if that
makes sense. Where teenagers where you're like, you know, I
(04:18):
really have a gut feeling that they're going to be
great at this, and then they come and they bang
it out of the park and you're like, yes, home run,
Like I knew you had it in you. So they
actually have a bigger room to impress you because they've
you know, not sold themselves as well as the adult has.
Listening to you talk about it, I'm imagining being a
teenager in that situation and may be surprising myself a
(04:42):
little bit, like I could imagine the type of conversation
that you're describing, drawing out strengths that I didn't even
realize wor strengths. I hope you're right, you know. I
think when you're a teenager, generally speaking, of course, you
really try very hard to blend into the crowd, you
know what I mean, Like to be quirky and to
(05:05):
be kind of strange is not exactly what you're going
for to walk down the halls of the high school
generally speaking, But when you go into an interview, it's
that quirkiness and that weirdness that's going to make you
stand out from the rest and in a job like mine,
quirkiness is is where it's at, you know what I mean,
like to be loud and to be strange and to
(05:27):
be you know, not self conscious and put yourself out
there is exactly the kind of people we want role
modeling for these kids. And so I think that what
is the best part about my job in this in
this aspect is being able to draw out that quirkiness
in the teenager and then being able to celebrate it
(05:50):
later if they've been hired. Does that make sense, Yeah,
I love that. Now do you ask for references from
teenagers or is that not really a useful thing. We
do ask for references, you know, a lot of times,
especially if it's their first job, we're getting a reference
from you know, probably an aunt or somebody within their
(06:10):
family or you know, generally it's a lot of their
experiences that they're the eldest of six kids, or you know,
they baby set the neighbors kids, you know, for five
years or whatever it may be. But the reference, I
think is a good thing to ask for just for accountability,
you know, so that even in the future that they're
doing a great job, because it's great for them to
(06:31):
know that that that comes back, you know what I mean.
Do you ever talk to our reference who gives you
second thoughts about a candidate who makes you think maybe
the person isn't the right fit. I m hmm, that's
a great question. I've definitely given references where where I
think I've given somebody else the second thought. But um,
(06:55):
I feel like as a teenager, people are are working
together to help raise these kids right, and they want
the best for them, so they're going to give their
references or somebody who's probably close to them, and it's good.
I will say. And this is a very interesting thing
that's you know, only been in the last ten years
of my job, is that I can check these kids
(07:16):
up on social media and I've not asked for an
interview and I've not hired someone because of what I
saw on social media. Yeah, and is that stuff like
partying or just generally poor judgment? Um one in particular,
she was writing about how much she hated her job,
(07:38):
and I was like, okay, well no, and then another
one was yeah, a lot of Here's the thing is
that a lot of my clients will also look up,
you know, the parents will look up at these people
that are taking care of their kids, and I don't
blame them. You know, it's their children. You want to
make sure that the best people are taking care of them.
And so if there's any sort of you know, just
(08:01):
there's been like one person who had a lot of
makeout pictures. It was just like, I don't want to
I don't want to have to answer to that. Yeah,
that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, not that people
should censor themselves, but people should just be aware that,
you know, potential employees are looking at them. Yeah, I
be aware it's out there. One thing that I sometimes
get fascinating letters about at Asking Manager are adult job
(08:25):
candidates whose parents are trying to be involved in their
interview process, which of course is wildly inappropriate for adults,
but I wonder you must encounter parents who are trying
to be a little bit too involved. Am I write
about that? And if so, how do you handle that?
That's a great question. I feel like we've actually done
interviews with the parents, or at least at the beginning
(08:46):
of the interview and at the end of the interview,
because a lot of the times we've heard about the
teenager via the parents. You know, they're either a part
of our social circle, or however it may fall where
we ask our our friends or another adult, do you
have any kids or do you know and if any
kids that could help us out, And so a lot
(09:06):
of times they're the ones making the introductions for their children,
and sometimes that goes really great, and sometimes that doesn't
go so well because the teenager is a different person
around their parents, right, And so if it seems like
it's not working well, we will ask for more privacy.
But generally, I think my job is a little different
because we do get a lot of our staff from
(09:29):
people we are, you know, and it makes sense that
parents are going to have an interest in their minor
child's summer employment. So the boundaries are different, and I
would hope that they do, you know. I want them
to know that we will be treating their kids right
and um taking care of them, you know, because there
are different levels to our camp and and helping our
(09:51):
counselors become wonderful and seeing their strengths as part of
my job and my business partner's job as well. I
love that you see at that. Do you think that
that is a pretty typical outlook for camp owners. I
think so, because it's an experience. You know what I mean.
It's not just a job. You're not going to a
fast food restaurant and providing a service that someone pays
(10:12):
for and the interaction is finished. This is you know, generally,
we're spending six, seven, eight weeks with the same person
and we want them to grow with us, and we
want them to have a great time. I had wonderful
summer job experiences, and I want the same for my staff.
And I guess selfishly, if my staff is having a
great time and feeling confident, that only that is contagious,
(10:37):
you know what I mean. And when these kids are
coming and they are having a great time and they
themselves are growing and feeling more confident, then then that's
a successful time. And I think that's what summer camp
is about, you know, really, it's making friends and exploring
and adventuring and feeling great. Yeah. I love that. We'll
(10:59):
pause here for a quick break and then we'll be
right back. I have to ask, do you remember any
especially strange or unusual experiences that you've had interviewing teenagers.
I think the one that stands out well, we yes,
(11:23):
I have to when we hired and when we didn't
and I'll explain the differences. One was, so I've explained
to you basically our our general philosophies, which is making
people staff campers, you know, ourselves, everyone included, have a
wonderful time and feel really really great. And we had
(11:45):
this one interview and I swear she just came out
of like an emo convention or something. She was wearing
all black, and she knows what she's interviewing for, so
I don't know what she was thinking, but she was
wearing all black, didn't smile, I couldn't look at a
U in the eyes, and gave us nothing. And I
explained you before, like I really do bait them a
(12:05):
lot in terms of what they could answer to please please,
are little, you know, employer brains. And she just with
arms folded, sat there and she just walked away. And
my business partner and I didn't even comment, was just
next And what's your theory there? Do you think she
was maybe being pushed into it by a parent. I
(12:26):
think she was just perhaps it just wasn't her cup
of tea and what she explained ourselves and she wasn't
no longer interested. Um, but self consciousness unfortunately really play
such a big role in the teenage world. And I
hate to say that, and we and that hasn't been
my experience all the time, but I think generally, especially
compared to adults, you do have that's just something you're
(12:50):
navigating with them. Yeah. Absolutely. And the and the second
time we had somebody that stands out to me was
actually so the situation was I knew them very well,
but my business partner had to interview them as well.
And so I know this person is a very outgoing,
fun um teenager, and I knew that they would do
a great job. But in the interview she had, she
(13:12):
folded herself. I can't explain it more than just folded
herself into her own body and and just was so
unbearably shy and couldn't give the information that we needed.
And I had to just look at my business partner
and say, I promise she'll do a great job. I
(13:32):
promised that this just didn't go well for her, and
she can check this up to experience in an interview,
because I know she'll do and she did do a
great job. But I feel like this is such a
useful experience for teenagers to begin to get their feet
wet in an interview because I mean, it's a stressful
experience for many adults, if not most adults, so I'm
sure it's especially stressful for teenagers. Do you ever encounter
(13:55):
teenagers who are actually really laid back and relaxed about
the whole thing, Yes, yeah, and they get hired right away. Yeah,
that would be a really good sign. Yeah, you can.
You can tell as soon as they walk in. And
it actually is so simple. You know, eye contact is
our number one, our number one. I sometimes I just
want to look at the person I'm interviewing and say,
(14:16):
you know what, let's take to come back and just
look at us in the eye. You know, it doesn't
even matter what's coming out of your mouth as much
as it is that you're just connecting with us. And
so when they do walk in with a big smile,
shake our hands, which is not often a teenage, you
know the thing that they do, but put out their
hand right away, shake it, looking the eyes with a
(14:38):
big smile, immediately were relaxed, which makes a great interview.
And then when they're able to offer up I can
think of this one girl in particular, where she didn't
know the answers, but she was so great at just
being like, I don't know, let me think about that,
you know, straight up, and then it was just like,
I don't think I have an answer to what you're saying,
but let me just add this about myself. I think
(15:00):
that it shows a real confidence that she's not afraid
to say she doesn't know something exactly, and instead of
just saying something you sort of be nine, she's just
being like, let's forget what you asked me and let
me tell you something fantastic. And she was, you know,
we will hire her summer after summer. She she's fantastic.
Something I just really want them to know when they
(15:22):
come in is that it's safe. You know, we generally
want to hire people, and then if we find people quickly, honestly,
it makes our job easier. Right, So so it's it's
not a we're not the enemy, you know what I mean,
we would. We really want them to do well, and
we really want to be impressed by them. But I
(15:43):
think a lot of times teenagers specifically come in and
it's sort of like, you know, that dreadful authority, this
will be my boss. I've heard about bosses, and bosses
are terrible, and bosses, you know, instead of just just
you know, putting their best foot forward and try really
hard to to connect with us. I think that's the
(16:04):
biggest word. It's funny. I find the same thing in adults. Actually,
I tell people all the time, the person adults here,
the person who is interviewing you, wants to hire you.
They are hoping you'll be right for the job because
you'll be a solution to a problem that is annoying
them and taking up their time. They're not your adversary,
they're not looking to trip you up. But I think
people get into this interview mindset, certainly adults, and it
(16:27):
sounds like some teens as well, where it does feel
sort of adversarial and it's all tied up in people's
weird relationship to authority. M I agree with you, and
instead of thinking, listen, we've hired people that we didn't
think we were even looking for. You know, like I've
said in the in in this interview, you know we're
(16:47):
looking for a loud, quirky people, but that we've definitely
hired shire more mild mannered people just because we they
impressed us and we wanted to be around them, and
in our sort of situation, we have so many counselors
that there is space for somebody who doesn't have to
be the star of the show. There is some you know,
(17:09):
where the kids could go and have a quiet time
with this counselor. So, you know, they've impressed us so
much that we've almost tweaked the dynamic within our staff
to to have them come in. So, as long as
you're being true to yourself, and this goes for adults too,
you're not in competition with anybody as long as you
are being your true self. And so you're offering something
(17:33):
to me that no one else can give me because
it's simply you. Does that make sense? It does? Yeah,
I think that's great advice. Yeah. So if you're just
simply yourself, you're not in competition with anybody. But if
you're trying to be the greatest counselor or the greatest
account or whatever your job you know that you're going
for is, then you have a whole huge competition because
(17:56):
that's what everyone else is trying to be. But if
you're like this is it's kind of like that teenager
at we hired that we love, where she's like, I
don't know the answer to your question. But here's an
answer to another question that makes you Yeah, you're kind
of like, you're right, you are great, and I'm going
to find a way to make this work because this,
this is the energy I want. Yeah, I wonder too
about managing teens, even aside from the hiring process. One
(18:18):
thing I always tell managers is that they have to
be really careful, to be really clear about expectations. That
you can't assume that people know what you want or
that they'll understand your shorthand you have to spell things
out so that everyone is working from the same playbook.
And I imagine that must go double or triple e
when you're managing teenagers. Yes, but I will say that
(18:40):
they they are so open to being told what to do.
Is not the right thing to say, but like to
how the playbook works that it's very easy with teenagers
because they don't have sort of a preconceived idea of
how they they think that they should go. You know,
we have we have staff from fifteen years old to
(19:00):
forty years old, and a lot of times and they're
all wonderful. An adult would come in and have an
idea maybe of how they would do it because they're
older and have experience and maybe have have done this
job in the past, whereas a teenager is just kind
of like, please tell me what to do, and we're
(19:20):
as business owners like gladly, Yeah, we'll pause here for
a quick word from a sponsor and then we'll come
right back. When you started in this business, was there
anything that surprised you? Did you learn anything that you
(19:41):
didn't expect about managing teenagers? I think what surprised me
the most, and maybe this is just my bad, is
that when you hire the right people, very confident, very
open people, you really don't have to boss them quote
unquote as much as maybe I imagined. So once you
(20:04):
are on the same page and everyone has the same
playbook and everyone is happy in their jobs, then as
a manager or as as the owner, it alleviates so
much from me that I can just enjoy them and
I can I can enjoy being their peer, where even
though I maybe thirty years older than them or twenty
years older. Maybe is that is that I can sit
(20:29):
back and watch them shine and not have to be
so such a boss. And I think before hiring teenagers,
I thought, well, this is going to be a big job.
You know, they're sixteen and I'm going to have to
follow them around and make sure they're doing everything right.
But but truly, if you are open and you're able
to give them the tools to be great, then you
get to sit back and watch them be great. And
(20:50):
that's wonderful. I think there's something similar there for adults
as well. Actually, if you hire the right people the
vast majority of the time, you should be able to
relate to them like a peer. You shouldn't always have
to have your boss hat on, and I think in
effective managers missed that lesson. But if you have great
people working for you, and everyone is clear on what
(21:12):
you're there to get done, often you can let them
go yes, and then not just what, let them go,
watch them grow and shine and and nail it. And
then it's important as a manager to say, hey, guess
what I was watching you and you nailed it? Yes,
And then they feel more confident to keep doing what
(21:34):
they're doing. It's it's wonderful. Yeah, you sound like you
would be such an amazing manager and interviewer for a teenager.
That's very kind. But I feel like my job, I'm
we're all spoiled in my job because really the common
threat of it all is we want the child to
(21:55):
be happy, we want them to have a good experience,
and so however we get there is only going to
be great intentions, you know what I mean. Like by
the time the kids come, it's nothing to do about money.
Their counselors aren't worried about money or or anything like that.
Their only job is to make sure everyone is feeling
safe and happy. And so what a wonderful way to
(22:16):
wake up, you know what I mean? Like, how are
we going to make them happy today? Like, yeah, so
we're we're spoiled in our job because there's not the
other pressures that maybe another job may have, of of
you know, the productivity or whatever. It maybe it's just
like if that kid's leaving with a smile and they're
running to their moms saying or their dad saying, I
had a great day, Like awesome, I want to go
(22:37):
back to summer camp now, right. The last question for you,
if you could give one piece of advice to a
teenager in your life, it was going to their first
job interview, what would you tell them. I think my
advice to a teenager would be to spend some time
prior to the interview and just really thinking about themselves
and why why they are awesome and why they are
(22:57):
great and think of specific reasons and and reasons that
set them apart from other people, not that they're better
or worse, just different. Why are you different? And why
would I want to spend my time with you? Or
why would you be a great role model? And with
all of those characteristics in your heart and in your head,
(23:18):
you're gonna walk in confident because you know what makes
you awesome, and then you're going to be able to
have an interview where you feel confident with what you
can bring to this job. And hey, this is great
life advice to like every morning and look in the
mirror and think about why you're awesome. Let's all do that.
But I think specifically for an interview, because then you're
(23:41):
not selling me yourself, you're just being you. And then
if you can fit into my world and what I've created,
then then hop on in. You know, if if you
don't fit in and you don't get the job, it's
because that just wasn't a great fit, not because you
didn't perform well or not because of anything else. It's
just that what you specifically had at that moment wasn't
(24:04):
going to fit with that one, but it will fit
somewhere else. That is great advice, not just for teens,
but for adults. I think you just took eleven years
of what I've been writing and Ask a Manager and
summarized it in a few senses. So let's sleep, let's
run the world. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on the show and share
all of those I thought this was so interesting. Thank
(24:27):
you awesome. Thanks for listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast.
If you'd like to come on the show to talk
through your own question, email it too podcast at Asking
Manager dot org, or you can leave a recording of
your question by calling eight five five f T six work.
That's eight five five f T six nine seven five.
You can get more ask a Manager at ask a
Manager dot org or in my book Ask a Manager
(24:48):
How to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the
rest of your life at work. The Ask a Manager
Show is a partnership with how Stuff Works and is
produced by Paul Deckett. If you liked what you heard,
please take a minute to subscribe, rate review the show
on Apple Podcasts. Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green
and i'll be back next week with another one of
your questions. M
My colleagues, We'll stop commenting on everything. I get my
asses at people and meeting? Why does my coworker keep
taking credit for all my idea? Have any wisdom for me? Hi,
I'm Alison Green. Welcome to the Ask a Manager podcast.
Right answer questions from listeners about life at work, everything
from what to say if you're allergic to your coworkers
perfume to what to do if you drink too much
(00:23):
at the company party. Let's get started. I talk a
lot at Ask a Manager about how to hire good
employees and how to convince an interviewer to hire you.
There are a lot of things that we take as
givens when we talk about job searching and interviewing, like
that you have some idea of what you're good at
and what you're not so good at. We assume that
(00:44):
because we're usually talking about adults who have some amount
of work experience and life experience for that matter. But
what about when you're hiring teenagers. It turns out the
principles that you use when you're hiring adults don't always
work when you're talking to teenagers who may never have
had a job before Today. We're joined by Sue Bell
who co owns Melissa and Sue Camps, which puts on
(01:06):
different kinds of summer camps, and she's interviewed tons of
teenagers for jobs as camp counselors. Hi, Sue, thanks for
coming on the show. Hi also thanks so much for
having me. So you have a bunch of experience interviewing
and hiring teenagers, and you have some really fascinating observations
about how that can be different from hiring adults. So
(01:27):
let's start there. What are some of the differences between
interviewing a teenager and interviewing an adult. Well, I think
the main difference is that adults come into the situation
sort of game ready, if you know what I mean.
They have They've probably interviewed themselves in the car on
the way over to the interview. They've thought about all
the great things are going to say about themselves, and
(01:47):
they're ready to put their best foot forward. And I
think teenagers, although a hampton ready for the interview, they
they first of all, don't have the experience and so
and so they don't know what took back, which you
can also be a very nerve racking situation. But not
only that, they don't they don't know themselves enough to
(02:08):
to be able to be forthright about all these amazing
things that they could do. So what ends up happening
is that I end up trying to draw out a
lot of their qualities or a lot of the things
that they'd be great at, you know. And it seems
to be a bit tricky, Whereas adults sit down and
they're like, I'm great at this and this and this,
and wait till you see me do this, and I'm
the best person for the job, and a teenager sort
(02:29):
of looks at you like help, how do you get
them to open up enough so that you can get
a real sense of who they are. I think one
of the tricks that my business partner and I use
is just to have a normal conversation at the beginning.
And what we do is spend the beginning part of
the of the interview talking about our business and what
(02:50):
we believe to be our favorite parts of the business
and and what we're looking for. So we're giving them
the platform to insert their great abilities into what we're
looking for. So, for example, we would say something like
we're looking for someone who could be really great at
entertaining the kids all by themselves while we, you know,
(03:12):
diffuse some sort of parents situation or something like that.
You know someone who could sing songs or play a
game or something like that, so that their response could
be I'm really great at singing songs with kids. Great
check and then we could say what would you do
in that situation, and then they could sort of play
out exactly what they would do. Ye do you ever
(03:34):
get anyone I'm thinking back to something you said a
minute or two ago. When you're talking about adults, when
you're interviewing them, sometimes they come in and they're running
through all their strengths and they're telling you all the
things that they're great at, and sometimes it's kind of
puffed up and and and not strictly true. Do you
run into that with teenagers or is that more of
an adult problem? I will say that generally the teenagers
(03:57):
end up surprising us more with all of their awesomeness
than perhaps the adults to do. Do you know what
I mean? The adults will give you all the things
they're great at, so there's not a lot of room
for you to to um set bigger expectations. They have
a they have a farther place to fall if that
makes sense. Where teenagers where you're like, you know, I
(04:18):
really have a gut feeling that they're going to be
great at this, and then they come and they bang
it out of the park and you're like, yes, home run,
Like I knew you had it in you. So they
actually have a bigger room to impress you because they've
you know, not sold themselves as well as the adult has.
Listening to you talk about it, I'm imagining being a
teenager in that situation and may be surprising myself a
(04:42):
little bit, like I could imagine the type of conversation
that you're describing, drawing out strengths that I didn't even
realize wor strengths. I hope you're right, you know. I
think when you're a teenager, generally speaking, of course, you
really try very hard to blend into the crowd, you
know what I mean, Like to be quirky and to
(05:05):
be kind of strange is not exactly what you're going
for to walk down the halls of the high school
generally speaking, But when you go into an interview, it's
that quirkiness and that weirdness that's going to make you
stand out from the rest and in a job like mine,
quirkiness is is where it's at, you know what I mean,
like to be loud and to be strange and to
(05:27):
be you know, not self conscious and put yourself out
there is exactly the kind of people we want role
modeling for these kids. And so I think that what
is the best part about my job in this in
this aspect is being able to draw out that quirkiness
in the teenager and then being able to celebrate it
(05:50):
later if they've been hired. Does that make sense, Yeah,
I love that. Now do you ask for references from
teenagers or is that not really a useful thing. We
do ask for references, you know, a lot of times,
especially if it's their first job, we're getting a reference
from you know, probably an aunt or somebody within their
(06:10):
family or you know, generally it's a lot of their
experiences that they're the eldest of six kids, or you know,
they baby set the neighbors kids, you know, for five
years or whatever it may be. But the reference, I
think is a good thing to ask for just for accountability,
you know, so that even in the future that they're
doing a great job, because it's great for them to
(06:31):
know that that that comes back, you know what I mean.
Do you ever talk to our reference who gives you
second thoughts about a candidate who makes you think maybe
the person isn't the right fit. I m hmm, that's
a great question. I've definitely given references where where I
think I've given somebody else the second thought. But um,
(06:55):
I feel like as a teenager, people are are working
together to help raise these kids right, and they want
the best for them, so they're going to give their
references or somebody who's probably close to them, and it's good.
I will say. And this is a very interesting thing
that's you know, only been in the last ten years
of my job, is that I can check these kids
(07:16):
up on social media and I've not asked for an
interview and I've not hired someone because of what I
saw on social media. Yeah, and is that stuff like
partying or just generally poor judgment? Um one in particular,
she was writing about how much she hated her job,
(07:38):
and I was like, okay, well no, and then another
one was yeah, a lot of Here's the thing is
that a lot of my clients will also look up,
you know, the parents will look up at these people
that are taking care of their kids, and I don't
blame them. You know, it's their children. You want to
make sure that the best people are taking care of them.
And so if there's any sort of you know, just
(08:01):
there's been like one person who had a lot of
makeout pictures. It was just like, I don't want to
I don't want to have to answer to that. Yeah,
that makes a ton of sense. Yeah, not that people
should censor themselves, but people should just be aware that,
you know, potential employees are looking at them. Yeah, I
be aware it's out there. One thing that I sometimes
get fascinating letters about at Asking Manager are adult job
(08:25):
candidates whose parents are trying to be involved in their
interview process, which of course is wildly inappropriate for adults,
but I wonder you must encounter parents who are trying
to be a little bit too involved. Am I write
about that? And if so, how do you handle that?
That's a great question. I feel like we've actually done
interviews with the parents, or at least at the beginning
(08:46):
of the interview and at the end of the interview,
because a lot of the times we've heard about the
teenager via the parents. You know, they're either a part
of our social circle, or however it may fall where
we ask our our friends or another adult, do you
have any kids or do you know and if any
kids that could help us out, And so a lot
(09:06):
of times they're the ones making the introductions for their children,
and sometimes that goes really great, and sometimes that doesn't
go so well because the teenager is a different person
around their parents, right, And so if it seems like
it's not working well, we will ask for more privacy.
But generally, I think my job is a little different
because we do get a lot of our staff from
(09:29):
people we are, you know, and it makes sense that
parents are going to have an interest in their minor
child's summer employment. So the boundaries are different, and I
would hope that they do, you know. I want them
to know that we will be treating their kids right
and um taking care of them, you know, because there
are different levels to our camp and and helping our
(09:51):
counselors become wonderful and seeing their strengths as part of
my job and my business partner's job as well. I
love that you see at that. Do you think that
that is a pretty typical outlook for camp owners. I
think so, because it's an experience. You know what I mean.
It's not just a job. You're not going to a
fast food restaurant and providing a service that someone pays
(10:12):
for and the interaction is finished. This is you know, generally,
we're spending six, seven, eight weeks with the same person
and we want them to grow with us, and we
want them to have a great time. I had wonderful
summer job experiences, and I want the same for my staff.
And I guess selfishly, if my staff is having a
great time and feeling confident, that only that is contagious,
(10:37):
you know what I mean. And when these kids are
coming and they are having a great time and they
themselves are growing and feeling more confident, then then that's
a successful time. And I think that's what summer camp
is about, you know, really, it's making friends and exploring
and adventuring and feeling great. Yeah. I love that. We'll
(10:59):
pause here for a quick break and then we'll be
right back. I have to ask, do you remember any
especially strange or unusual experiences that you've had interviewing teenagers.
I think the one that stands out well, we yes,
(11:23):
I have to when we hired and when we didn't
and I'll explain the differences. One was, so I've explained
to you basically our our general philosophies, which is making
people staff campers, you know, ourselves, everyone included, have a
wonderful time and feel really really great. And we had
(11:45):
this one interview and I swear she just came out
of like an emo convention or something. She was wearing
all black, and she knows what she's interviewing for, so
I don't know what she was thinking, but she was
wearing all black, didn't smile, I couldn't look at a
U in the eyes, and gave us nothing. And I
explained you before, like I really do bait them a
(12:05):
lot in terms of what they could answer to please please,
are little, you know, employer brains. And she just with
arms folded, sat there and she just walked away. And
my business partner and I didn't even comment, was just
next And what's your theory there? Do you think she
was maybe being pushed into it by a parent. I
(12:26):
think she was just perhaps it just wasn't her cup
of tea and what she explained ourselves and she wasn't
no longer interested. Um, but self consciousness unfortunately really play
such a big role in the teenage world. And I
hate to say that, and we and that hasn't been
my experience all the time, but I think generally, especially
compared to adults, you do have that's just something you're
(12:50):
navigating with them. Yeah. Absolutely. And the and the second
time we had somebody that stands out to me was
actually so the situation was I knew them very well,
but my business partner had to interview them as well.
And so I know this person is a very outgoing,
fun um teenager, and I knew that they would do
a great job. But in the interview she had, she
(13:12):
folded herself. I can't explain it more than just folded
herself into her own body and and just was so
unbearably shy and couldn't give the information that we needed.
And I had to just look at my business partner
and say, I promise she'll do a great job. I
(13:32):
promised that this just didn't go well for her, and
she can check this up to experience in an interview,
because I know she'll do and she did do a
great job. But I feel like this is such a
useful experience for teenagers to begin to get their feet
wet in an interview because I mean, it's a stressful
experience for many adults, if not most adults, so I'm
sure it's especially stressful for teenagers. Do you ever encounter
(13:55):
teenagers who are actually really laid back and relaxed about
the whole thing, Yes, yeah, and they get hired right away. Yeah,
that would be a really good sign. Yeah, you can.
You can tell as soon as they walk in. And
it actually is so simple. You know, eye contact is
our number one, our number one. I sometimes I just
want to look at the person I'm interviewing and say,
(14:16):
you know what, let's take to come back and just
look at us in the eye. You know, it doesn't
even matter what's coming out of your mouth as much
as it is that you're just connecting with us. And
so when they do walk in with a big smile,
shake our hands, which is not often a teenage, you
know the thing that they do, but put out their
hand right away, shake it, looking the eyes with a
(14:38):
big smile, immediately were relaxed, which makes a great interview.
And then when they're able to offer up I can
think of this one girl in particular, where she didn't
know the answers, but she was so great at just
being like, I don't know, let me think about that,
you know, straight up, and then it was just like,
I don't think I have an answer to what you're saying,
but let me just add this about myself. I think
(15:00):
that it shows a real confidence that she's not afraid
to say she doesn't know something exactly, and instead of
just saying something you sort of be nine, she's just
being like, let's forget what you asked me and let
me tell you something fantastic. And she was, you know,
we will hire her summer after summer. She she's fantastic.
Something I just really want them to know when they
(15:22):
come in is that it's safe. You know, we generally
want to hire people, and then if we find people quickly, honestly,
it makes our job easier. Right, So so it's it's
not a we're not the enemy, you know what I mean,
we would. We really want them to do well, and
we really want to be impressed by them. But I
(15:43):
think a lot of times teenagers specifically come in and
it's sort of like, you know, that dreadful authority, this
will be my boss. I've heard about bosses, and bosses
are terrible, and bosses, you know, instead of just just
you know, putting their best foot forward and try really
hard to to connect with us. I think that's the
(16:04):
biggest word. It's funny. I find the same thing in adults. Actually,
I tell people all the time, the person adults here,
the person who is interviewing you, wants to hire you.
They are hoping you'll be right for the job because
you'll be a solution to a problem that is annoying
them and taking up their time. They're not your adversary,
they're not looking to trip you up. But I think
people get into this interview mindset, certainly adults, and it
(16:27):
sounds like some teens as well, where it does feel
sort of adversarial and it's all tied up in people's
weird relationship to authority. M I agree with you, and
instead of thinking, listen, we've hired people that we didn't
think we were even looking for. You know, like I've
said in the in in this interview, you know we're
(16:47):
looking for a loud, quirky people, but that we've definitely
hired shire more mild mannered people just because we they
impressed us and we wanted to be around them, and
in our sort of situation, we have so many counselors
that there is space for somebody who doesn't have to
be the star of the show. There is some you know,
(17:09):
where the kids could go and have a quiet time
with this counselor. So, you know, they've impressed us so
much that we've almost tweaked the dynamic within our staff
to to have them come in. So, as long as
you're being true to yourself, and this goes for adults too,
you're not in competition with anybody as long as you
are being your true self. And so you're offering something
(17:33):
to me that no one else can give me because
it's simply you. Does that make sense? It does? Yeah,
I think that's great advice. Yeah. So if you're just
simply yourself, you're not in competition with anybody. But if
you're trying to be the greatest counselor or the greatest
account or whatever your job you know that you're going
for is, then you have a whole huge competition because
(17:56):
that's what everyone else is trying to be. But if
you're like this is it's kind of like that teenager
at we hired that we love, where she's like, I
don't know the answer to your question. But here's an
answer to another question that makes you Yeah, you're kind
of like, you're right, you are great, and I'm going
to find a way to make this work because this,
this is the energy I want. Yeah, I wonder too
about managing teens, even aside from the hiring process. One
(18:18):
thing I always tell managers is that they have to
be really careful, to be really clear about expectations. That
you can't assume that people know what you want or
that they'll understand your shorthand you have to spell things
out so that everyone is working from the same playbook.
And I imagine that must go double or triple e
when you're managing teenagers. Yes, but I will say that
(18:40):
they they are so open to being told what to do.
Is not the right thing to say, but like to
how the playbook works that it's very easy with teenagers
because they don't have sort of a preconceived idea of
how they they think that they should go. You know,
we have we have staff from fifteen years old to
(19:00):
forty years old, and a lot of times and they're
all wonderful. An adult would come in and have an
idea maybe of how they would do it because they're
older and have experience and maybe have have done this
job in the past, whereas a teenager is just kind
of like, please tell me what to do, and we're
(19:20):
as business owners like gladly, Yeah, we'll pause here for
a quick word from a sponsor and then we'll come
right back. When you started in this business, was there
anything that surprised you? Did you learn anything that you
(19:41):
didn't expect about managing teenagers? I think what surprised me
the most, and maybe this is just my bad, is
that when you hire the right people, very confident, very
open people, you really don't have to boss them quote
unquote as much as maybe I imagined. So once you
(20:04):
are on the same page and everyone has the same
playbook and everyone is happy in their jobs, then as
a manager or as as the owner, it alleviates so
much from me that I can just enjoy them and
I can I can enjoy being their peer, where even
though I maybe thirty years older than them or twenty
years older. Maybe is that is that I can sit
(20:29):
back and watch them shine and not have to be
so such a boss. And I think before hiring teenagers,
I thought, well, this is going to be a big job.
You know, they're sixteen and I'm going to have to
follow them around and make sure they're doing everything right.
But but truly, if you are open and you're able
to give them the tools to be great, then you
get to sit back and watch them be great. And
(20:50):
that's wonderful. I think there's something similar there for adults
as well. Actually, if you hire the right people the
vast majority of the time, you should be able to
relate to them like a peer. You shouldn't always have
to have your boss hat on, and I think in
effective managers missed that lesson. But if you have great
people working for you, and everyone is clear on what
(21:12):
you're there to get done, often you can let them
go yes, and then not just what, let them go,
watch them grow and shine and and nail it. And
then it's important as a manager to say, hey, guess
what I was watching you and you nailed it? Yes,
And then they feel more confident to keep doing what
(21:34):
they're doing. It's it's wonderful. Yeah, you sound like you
would be such an amazing manager and interviewer for a teenager.
That's very kind. But I feel like my job, I'm
we're all spoiled in my job because really the common
threat of it all is we want the child to
(21:55):
be happy, we want them to have a good experience,
and so however we get there is only going to
be great intentions, you know what I mean. Like by
the time the kids come, it's nothing to do about money.
Their counselors aren't worried about money or or anything like that.
Their only job is to make sure everyone is feeling
safe and happy. And so what a wonderful way to
(22:16):
wake up, you know what I mean? Like, how are
we going to make them happy today? Like, yeah, so
we're we're spoiled in our job because there's not the
other pressures that maybe another job may have, of of
you know, the productivity or whatever. It maybe it's just
like if that kid's leaving with a smile and they're
running to their moms saying or their dad saying, I
had a great day, Like awesome, I want to go
(22:37):
back to summer camp now, right. The last question for you,
if you could give one piece of advice to a
teenager in your life, it was going to their first
job interview, what would you tell them. I think my
advice to a teenager would be to spend some time
prior to the interview and just really thinking about themselves
and why why they are awesome and why they are
(22:57):
great and think of specific reasons and and reasons that
set them apart from other people, not that they're better
or worse, just different. Why are you different? And why
would I want to spend my time with you? Or
why would you be a great role model? And with
all of those characteristics in your heart and in your head,
(23:18):
you're gonna walk in confident because you know what makes
you awesome, and then you're going to be able to
have an interview where you feel confident with what you
can bring to this job. And hey, this is great
life advice to like every morning and look in the
mirror and think about why you're awesome. Let's all do that.
But I think specifically for an interview, because then you're
(23:41):
not selling me yourself, you're just being you. And then
if you can fit into my world and what I've created,
then then hop on in. You know, if if you
don't fit in and you don't get the job, it's
because that just wasn't a great fit, not because you
didn't perform well or not because of anything else. It's
just that what you specifically had at that moment wasn't
(24:04):
going to fit with that one, but it will fit
somewhere else. That is great advice, not just for teens,
but for adults. I think you just took eleven years
of what I've been writing and Ask a Manager and
summarized it in a few senses. So let's sleep, let's
run the world. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for
taking the time to come on the show and share
all of those I thought this was so interesting. Thank
(24:27):
you awesome. Thanks for listening to the Ask a Manager Podcast.
If you'd like to come on the show to talk
through your own question, email it too podcast at Asking
Manager dot org, or you can leave a recording of
your question by calling eight five five f T six work.
That's eight five five f T six nine seven five.
You can get more ask a Manager at ask a
Manager dot org or in my book Ask a Manager
(24:48):
How to Navigate clueless colleagues, lunch stealing bosses, and the
rest of your life at work. The Ask a Manager
Show is a partnership with how Stuff Works and is
produced by Paul Deckett. If you liked what you heard,
please take a minute to subscribe, rate review the show
on Apple Podcasts. Spotify or Google Play. I'm Alison Green
and i'll be back next week with another one of
your questions. M
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