July 30, 2020 • 37 mins
The multi-hyphenate talent Ashley Graham has innovated a career that has spread across fashion, beauty, television, and podcasting. Ashley started modeling when she was just 12, but it wasn’t long before she was breaking boundaries — and changing the face of — the size-obsessed industry, becoming the first curvy model to cover Vogue and the Sports Illustrated Swimsuit Issue (among others), to walk Michael Kors, and to land a major beauty contract (Revlon). On this episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Boz, the model, entrepreneur, TV host, and producer talks to her friend Bozoma Saint John about pushing for more inclusivity and fewer labels at every step of her career. “There was always a label kind of looming over me,” she tells Boz. “Nobody wants to be labeled, yet people still put you in a box for who you are and who you stand for and who you’re rooting for and who you’re not rooting for. And all I simply wanted was to just be accepted for who I was.” Boz and Ashley also talk about motherhood, the need for diversity in all industries, and what it has been like quarantining with her family in her hometown of Lincoln, Nebraska. “We must be very abnormal,” she says, “because it’s working!”
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi, everybody. I'm Boma St. John and you're listening to
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Except I am
vibe my damn self, okay, because Katie is sprinting towards
her book deadline and so she's left me all by
my lonesome. But today I'm not by my lonesome. You
know why, because I've got the fabulous Ashley Graham with me.
(00:26):
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much
for having me on, Ashley. I love you. I just
love you. You know, since day one, I think it was,
um a love affair. Do you remember the year that was? Oh? Girl,
I don't know. I know I should have actually done
like the research on what year it was because it
(00:46):
was Glamor. It was Glamor Woman of the Year. Yes,
and then they just kept putting us together and stuff,
and then it was that was it. They just knew.
I feel like we kept seeing each other at places, yes,
and then we were like, you know what, I think
we should just be best friends like that. That it was.
That was it. That was the universe was telling us.
And then plus I love justin you know, he looked
(01:09):
I was I was showing him tough love though, because
I kind of felt like your cousin who needs to
give him a hard time, you know what I mean,
So he can't know he's all the way in, you
know what I mean, because you know what that's that's
the best, because just in such a teaser he I mean,
all day long, teasing and joking. But then lay L
(01:30):
Lael and I are like, I mean, she's my little sister,
that's it, She's auntie. Oh my gosh, Isaac, we have
so much to talk about because honey, we were having
jokes um, you know, prior to this conversation about you, um,
(01:52):
because we as in like the producers myself, we were
having jokes um because a is girl. You have done
so much, Okay, you are so much. At one point,
Lauren said she just had to just go ahead and
google Ashley Graham launches because it just felt like you
(02:13):
kept uncovering launches, you know what I mean, Like you
are not just a mom, even though you're a factless, amazing,
wonderful new mom, but you're fashion and beauty icon girl, icon,
change maker, rule breaker, a TV host, a producer and activists,
a wife, somebody's daughter, my bestie. Come on titles because yes, yes, yes,
(02:45):
but all of the titles because you are so much
and you mean so much, and so I'm gonna give
all your flowers right now, okay, because I truly feel
that you have absolutely not just disrupted the way that
we look at fashion beauty. I'm talking about like shattered, disrupted,
(03:05):
changed everything. Nothing was done the same afterwards. Okay, let's
just go ahead and claim that, amen. But also the
fact that you're an entrepreneur who keeps going, who keeps launching,
and even in this time of COVID. So we're going
to talk about all of that well as much as
we can in this time. Okay. So we we got
to start though, from the beginnings of time, okay, because
(03:26):
you're you're in Nebraska right now, right. I am in Nebraska,
justin Isaac. And I came with my mom to Nebraska
the second week of March, and we were like, we
left New York because we just didn't know what was
going to happen. I thought we were going to be
gone for three weeks. I didn't even pack everything, and um,
it's been four months now and it's it's it's been
(03:48):
a very interesting time, as everybody has been having. But Um,
I'm in Nebraska. I'm in the same home that I
grew up in, that I went to high school in,
um with you know, a little bit of different furniture
because my mom has a boyfriend now that's living with us. Yes,
so it's my mom, my, her boyfriend, me and Justin
(04:09):
and Isaac and Isaac, Justin and I have taken over
the whole basement and then they have upstairs, so it
kind of and her basement is bigger than my New
York sized apartment. Putting that out there, so we have
been able to breathe, but it has it has brought
me back to like, wow, this is where it all started.
This is where it all began. Was like here in Nebraska.
(04:32):
These are where my roots are. And so much of
me has been like New York, New York, New York,
New York until I die. And now I'm like back
in a suburb. I see green outside of me. Isaac
loves the grass, and I'm like, okay, do I want
the suburb? Like also because I'll never give up my
apartment in New York, So it brings a lot of
(04:53):
perspective and I kind of I love it because I
like to be a person who can go back and
look at what I've done where I've come from and
be excited for myself and the same for the people
around me and um, and that's exactly what this has done. Yeah,
can you talk a little bit about that though, your
beginnings in Nebraska, because you know, I feel that all
(05:14):
of us like our our own origin stories, stories about
so I mean, listen right here in Colorado, right or die.
There have been so many assumptions, you know, made about
Midwesterners and the way in which the middle behaves or
(05:37):
thinks this is true, this is true. Talk talk a
little bit about about you there? Then? What was that like? Who?
Who was Ashley? Then? What were you like? Are you?
Are you like you are now? Or you were different? Yes? No,
nothing has changed, and this lap hasn't changed. The crazy
(06:00):
thing is my mom has the same laugh. So if
you hear her laugh and hear mind, you don't know
the difference. Anyways, I moved here in eighth grade from Texas,
so it wasn't a culture shock, but it was very
different Texas to Nebraska and um, and when I got here,
I was in eighth grade, I was incredibly curvy. UM,
(06:20):
I just started modeling and I I remember, um my mom.
My mom is from Nebraska, and one of her things
that always growing up was she said, you have to
be a hard worker. Hard work will pay off. And
that is something that people in the Midwest really stand
true to, is their hard work ethics. And I come
(06:42):
from a family in a lineage of farmers, and they
have worked their butts off and um continue to this day.
And I feel like that's in my blood. And I
feel like that's how the people of even even just
the Midwest, I can say broadly, but Lincoln, Nebraska, you
meet incredibly nice people and incredibly hard working people. And
(07:05):
I really love that about the Midwest. Yeah, oh my goodness,
Well did you feel like that helped you as you
then left? I mean still has been the ethos of
who I am in my career. If it weren't for
the fact that I stuck to my guns and bulldozed
(07:25):
through any boundary that was put in my way, um,
that was because of the ethics that my mother gave me. Um,
the niceness I mean I was. I was dropped into
an industry that was known as the mean girls club,
the mean everybody's club. Really, and if you're not this
that or the other. Then you're out and forget about
next season. You're definitely out. And I was nice throughout
(07:48):
the whole thing. I My mom always told me kindness,
UM will get you farther in life than anything, and
it has proven in my career. I think that a smile,
a genuine how are you, and played by the rules, um,
we'll get you incredibly far. Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true. Okay,
So we're going to get back to your career for
a second, but do you want to talk about your
(08:11):
mom and this intergenerational living arrangement that you're in, because
clearly COVID has disrupted all of our lives. Like you said,
you thought you were going to be in Nebraska for
three weeks and here you are four months later, and
we don't even know how long the hell we're gonna
be in these in our situations, And so what has
that been like, Like, you know, returning back to Nebraska
(08:31):
and living in the house where you grew up in
with your mom and her man and your man and
your new little man. That's a that's a lot going
on there. So I think that we must, we must
be very abnormal because it's working. Nobody has gotten into
a fight that has ability issues. We've had friends come
(08:53):
and go. Um, we had we had family come and go,
and all through the midst of all of it, we
have really been working. Like everybody kind of knows their role,
Like my mom is the nanny when I'm on a
zoom or a podcast. Um, Michael is mcgiver and he's
been doing house projects. Um, they just redid a bathroom.
They put up a stone wall on the porch. Justin
(09:16):
has found every coffee shop in Lincoln, and he's been
editing films. Um. And I have just been like feeling
so just incredibly happy that I can have these precious
moments with Isaac, that I'm not on a plane. I
knew that to three months after having him. My team
would probably have been like, hey, you got this, you
(09:38):
got that. In fact, I had things planned. But silver
lining is I have got to I have been able
to spend every waking moment with him, and it is
such a blessing. Oh god, it is. It's so true.
It's such a blessing. Similar to you, My mom um
has been living with us during this quarantine time, and
(09:59):
so it's it's of course her myself and Lael in
the house. Um so it's just female energy that's announced,
intergenerational female energy, and we are we're making it. I
don't know if we're as perfect as y'all, okay, but
we're doing our best too. I grew up with two sisters.
(10:21):
I get it. Mm hmmmmm hmm. Yeah. But you know,
it's all a learning. It's just you know, I'm just
I'm gonna put that silver lining on it. It's all
a learning, Okay, it is, it is. And also, you'll
look back on this, you'll be so happy that you
spent this time with your mom, l with your grandma forever,
right right, That's how I'm looking at him, like, I
(10:41):
get this time with my mom. And my mom and
I talked about death like it's really not a like
it's a conversation that we have. And she's like, okay,
when I die, Like she tells me where her things
are and this and that, and we talked about it
and she told me, she was like, just think about
this time that when you look back, we're gonna have
had this. And it just always like, yeah, that's a
(11:01):
good way to think about it. When we come back.
Ashley and all those damn labels. You're listening to Back
to Biz with Katie and Bows, and I'm chatting with
(11:22):
my friend, model mom entrepreneur Ashley Graham. Let's get back
to it. Can you talk a little bit about when
you began modeling and what actually made you think about
how to innovate and change within that space, because it's
enough to just be who you are in the space.
(11:43):
I mean, listen, there are lots of people who are
in the spaces, are the industries they are in and
trying to achieve just being different in that space. It's
like that just that's enough work. Like you get all
the all the trophies and metals just for having broken
barriers being who you are. But then girl, you have
to go ahead and just go ahead and innovate too.
(12:04):
Can you talk a little bit about that, Like you are,
you're modeling, But where where did those thoughts come from?
Start off? Well, I think where it really began was
knowing that after a certain amount of years of modeling.
I mean I started when I was twelve years old
and I moved to New York at seventeen. I left Nebraska.
(12:27):
It was an oh five and my mom and dad said,
if you don't make it in New York, you're gonna
have to move back, and you're gonna have to go
to college. And you're talking to a dyslexic a d
D barely like like I just kind of like slid
through high school with seats and whatever it took. I
did not want to go to college, so I did
(12:48):
whatever it took, and um, I worked my butt off.
I took every job. I said yes to everything. Um
and that was the beginning of my agency realizing this
girl's down, she's like, she's actually ready and we can
throw her into anything. So then it was probably about
four or five years later when I was married. I
(13:12):
had I think it was just a year that Justin
and I had been married, and my career was great.
I was top of the line catalog girl, Lane Bryant
model just had a commercial that was banned from TV
and it was remember that. Remember it wasn't necessarily like
(13:32):
my name was put on the map, but people in
the industry were like, oh, that's that girl, and um,
Justin came home and there was it was. It was
maybe a year after that, and Justin had come home
and I was still on the couch where he had
left from the morning that he had gone to work,
He's like, why are you still in the same position
on the couch. I was like, it was one of
(13:53):
those really proud wife moments, Like yeah he was. And
around that time he said, what do you want? What
is it that is going to make you happy? And
because he knew that, I felt really stagnant in the
career that I was at at that moment, and it
(14:13):
got my wheels turning because I thought that from that
commercial I could um really capitalize off of it and
turn it into something. And although I did much later,
I thought it was going to happen faster. And I
think that for me everything has been a building block
on top of the other and it hasn't come just
so quickly, but it's come with time and it's also
(14:37):
come with having my ears open. And so when Justin
said that to me, it was like, you're right, what
do people know me as? How can I really amplify?
By the way, haven't we been saying the word amplify
so much? I love it and I'm sure we'll get
to that, um and and how to amplify my voice
(14:57):
and to really into not not just my I always
put my name and what I really wanted to change
in the industry and um and that was start a
lingerie line. So I went to a company. I went
to a few companies and I said, Hey, I want
to do a lingerie line. I'm known as a lingerie girl.
Because that was the question I asked myself, what what
who do people know me as? Oh, they know me, Oh,
you're that lingerie girl. So I started my lingerie line
(15:22):
and I went to a few CEOs, but it ended
up being CEO of Additionelle Rosalind Grinder, and I said,
I want to make bras that look like this, and
I lifted up my shirt to her and I said,
but you see this spillage and you see that And
I said, it's just it's not cute, and she was like, great,
let's do it. Within a couple of months, we had
the contract written up and the next year my capsule
(15:42):
collection launched. Because who knew there's twenty five components to
a bra and it took a year to make, I
don't know. So that was the beginning of oh, this
is more than just modeling. But through that also I
had always been called a plus size model. There was
always a label kind of looming over me, and here
(16:06):
we are. We're in a day and age where labels
are disgusting, nobody wants to be labeled, yet people still
put you in a box for who you are and
who you stand for, and who you're rooting for and
who you're not rooting for. And all I simply wanted
was to just be accepted for who I was Ashley
the model period. So I just kept talking about it,
(16:29):
and I think now looking back, that was the best
thing I could have done, was just continue to talk
about the change I wanted and my experiences through my
own life, like with cellulite, like with dating, like with eating,
my experiences around my body, my insecurities. Who knew everybody
else in the world also had insecurities. I think, Um,
(16:56):
that's it was, really it was really then, and it
was it was justin kind of knocking on my door
and and pushing me, but also me realizing that I
needed to have patients throughout this whole thing, because um,
thirty two now, so here we are, twenty years in
the game. Besides justin, were there any other allies or
how did you find the gosh? I don't know the
(17:16):
wherewithal to be like you know what, Yeah, I know
some linger companies. I'm going to go figure. Let's tell you.
You know, as a model, you think that your agency
is going to hold your hand through a lot of things.
And I tell a lot of young models do it
on your wrong. You know. They had an agent tell me,
we're the ones who opened the door for you. You're
the one who's invited back in. And when she told
(17:41):
me that, it was an eye opener because it was like, oh,
you're just telling me that you can call them, But
I need to do the work. And that's with any career,
any any category that you want to actually get into,
because nobody's going to do the work for you, nobody
is going to sign up for you. You have to
take a leap of faith. You have to get uncomfortable
(18:04):
in a new situation and that's the only place you're
going to actually find growth. And that's what I did.
And I just I mean, I would be on set
talking to the CEOs, to the presidents and being like, hey,
let's have a you know, over lunch, over catering, and
it's like, so I've been thinking about and that's it.
(18:25):
Because I told my agency at the time, I said,
I want to do a lingerie line. They said no, no,
no, no no, no no. They said no to me, and
then I came to them and said, well, where I'm
going to be doing this? And of course they got
to collect a check because that was the contract that
I had. And those are also learning curves that I
had to learn. It's like, you know, who am I
signing my name away to? What am I signing my
name away to? UM? So I'm glad that I had
(18:49):
the right people in my court as far as attorneys
and advisors like that. Yes, but you're telling us and
that's wonderful because I think, I think part of it
is also sharing, you know, sharing the knowledge that you
have as you as you go along. And as I
said before, you know I I obviously am. I am
a fan, not just your friend, but a fan of
(19:10):
your work because of how relentless you are in the
pursuit of continuing to create. It's a very impressive trait.
Thank you. I'm not tired. I wanna I want to
change the world. I think that there's just that's it. Right.
(19:30):
As a mother, there's like a new strength that builds
up in you, I believe, and UM and there's just
so much to be done, and it's like, okay, checklist,
check check check, Okay, what are what are my new
what's my new? Checklist? And um And I'm not afraid.
I'm not I think that a lot of and I
(19:54):
don't want to speak for every woman, but I think
that there are some women who maybe even just people.
Maybe I'm maybe I shouldn't just say women, but I
just work with so many women. It's like I don't
want to ruffle anybody's feathers. Oh I can't do that
because of X, Y and Z or do you think
that that's the right idea. I think it's always the
right idea. Go for what you want. Go you know,
(20:16):
you always will hear like, go after what you believe
in and and what you see for yourself. But if
you're not actually going to put into action those things,
then they're just not going to come forth for you. Yes, suh,
yes suh. It's like put fourth into action. Yes, let's
snap it up, snap it up. It's important. It's important.
It's so important. Now, you know, like I said, you
you've had quite a few launches. And I'm a I'm
(20:39):
a also a big fan of bragging on myself. And
on other people. But because this is your moment, okay,
I want you to tell us, all right, tell us
tell us the people all the things did you have
launched and created? Because I just think it's so inspiring. No,
we really need to hear it, because, like you just said,
(21:02):
you know, you could have continued to be successful as
a model and girl, not just the you know the
commercial which was banned, but also you know your s
I cover just a little bit ago, you know what,
like there there have been some breakthroughs on the modeling front,
(21:23):
but you have done the extra work of being on
a set and talking to somebody. Okay, not just there
to do the job you're doing, but doing the job
that you want to get. Also, tell us, girl, tell
us give us, give us the launches. Just do it,
just do it. Let let us be, let us be.
Just let me just try to go. Oh my god,
(21:43):
there's launcherrase s whim then um clothing, clothing of all sorts.
I have a book, UM, I have a barbie. UM.
I'm a producer of a few different shows. I have
a workout series on YouTube called thank Bod. I have
a show called Fearless on l en Tube. Um, I
(22:06):
have a podcast called Pretty Big Deal because you are
a pretty big deal. Hello. I'm I've had a lot
of amazing covers, a lot of amazing covers. Um, gosh,
I hate talking about myself like this. This is very weird.
I love it. This is the thing which is also
(22:26):
really cool is that a lot of things is I'm
the first curvy model to do a lot of it,
which which I mean, you know, but this is the
way it should This is the way it should be.
We should be having representation of everybody at the table
period um. But I was just thinking about Revlon and
being um a a I'm an ambassador and having a
(22:48):
contract with them, I mean like beauty contracts. You know.
I always had somebody tell me, you know, you're skinny
from the from the neck up, so who cares? And
I'm like, well, what, like, what is that supposed to me?
I know, what is that supposed I've heard it all.
If you've heard it, I've heard it. And that's it,
you know. Oh my god. When we come back, Ashley
(23:09):
and I talked about the change that's in the air
and on the ground. You're listening to Back to Biz
with Katie and Bows and now Ashley and I are
going to talk about share the Mic now. This was
an initiative created by me and three other friends where
(23:30):
we asked white women on Instagram to give up their
platforms for twenty four hours to black women with powerful
stories who could share their narratives with a new audience.
I'm so proud that Ashley Graham was one of the
white women who said yes, and she gave up her
platform to opal to Mattie, who, by the way, has
(23:50):
been a guest on this show before, and it's the
co founder of Black Lives Matter. So let's pick back
up with Ashley right now. I do want to talk
to you about this rule breaking person that you are,
because diversity just does come in all kinds of ways.
(24:11):
But we are in a specific moment right now where
we're talking about all kinds of racial unrest, things that
need to change. You have been such an advocate, such
a voice in fashion and beauty specifically, but of course
across many entertainment spectrums that we've just discussed. Talk to
me about what you are thinking right now, like where
(24:33):
is your heart, where's your head, where's your spirit? You know,
as we think about all of the things that are
coming to the surface and this moment of reckoning that
we're in, especially in the industries that you're in. Thank God,
this is a very tough time to be in right now. UM.
(24:58):
I think that it's hard for a lot of people
to hear some of the stuff. It in some ways
is surprising, which I think is wild, but that it's surprising, um.
And it needs to happen. Everything that's happening right now
needs to happen. And UM, I am so glad that
there have been so many conversations. I'm so glad that
(25:21):
I've been having those conversations prior to all of this
coming out, UM, with my husband, with my best friends. UM,
you know, because these are the conversations that now people
are saying, oh, you have to have these conversations. But
where my head is right now is that, Okay, how
can how can I, as a white woman continue to
(25:42):
educate the white people around me? Because UM, I have
seen and I'm sorry, I'm just going there with you
right now. Yes, I mean okay, UM, I have seen
so many of my black friends and even my husband
who it's it's like they get off the phone and
or they've got so many text messages and they're just
exhausted by having to have explain and talk and the
(26:05):
and and and explain what's happening. And I'm not saying
that I'm an expert or I know much at all,
but what I do know, I'm able to talk to
my family about what I do know, I'm able to
talk to my white friends about and I'm able to say, Okay,
this is what you can do to help, because I
think that there are a lot of people who don't
know what to do right now, and they are feeling um,
(26:28):
nervous or like they don't want to say or do
the wrong thing. But in reality, being silent is doing
the wrong thing. Being silent is being a part of
the problem. So right now my feeling is discussed. My
feeling is I'm I'm horrified, but um but I'm also
(26:50):
so glad that things are happening because it feels like
real change is here and I can even just see
like there's a different kind of hope in some people's eyes. Yes,
it's true, there is, and I do feel that I
feel like this is different. I really do. Maybe it's
the optimist in me speaking, but there's, you know, the
initiative that we did with share the mic, which, by
(27:12):
the way, thank you for asking me to do that.
Can we pause on that for a second, though, because
I also have to tell I have to I have
to say this, which is that um, very much like
Justin or any of your other you know, black friends. UM.
I was so exhausted, so tired. You know. It's like
(27:32):
it was as if there was like a call that
went out that said check on your black friends. And
I was like, what holds, just hold on. I don't.
I don't. I don't need you all to call me
because I'm tired, okay, and I don't want to talk
right now. And I was sitting in my house, unbathed,
without brushing my teeth, exhausted, I didn't want to talk
to anybody, and it was blackout Tuesday, and I talked
(27:57):
to the only people I really want to talk to
with the only person I really want to talk to
you was love e A. Gi Jones is a good girlfriend,
and you know she's a she calls herself the professional troublemaker,
and that's the only person I really want to talk
to because I was like, girl, how can we start
some trouble? Okay? Um? But through that conversation and talking
to Glenn and Doyle as you know, and Stacy bend
(28:19):
it Um, we came up with the idea and the
idea to find white women who had big platforms, you know,
who have followings who may not actually be very diverse
in their own curated social channels, right, because not even
so much about you, but it's like, you know, the
(28:39):
people who follow you, who have decided who they're following,
and perhaps it's not as diverse, and so how could
we insert a different narrative into those platforms? And what
I have to say about you, sister, is that I
think I texted you maybe like three lines, like I
was like, girl, this is gonna do you down? And
(29:03):
you didn't You didn't ask me who else was going
to do it. You didn't say what do I have
to do? You didn't say when do I have to
do it? And what did you say? No? You just
said yes. You just said yes. And I don't think
we have actually had that conversation of how what that
meant to me? You know how how much it meant
(29:27):
because you're simple, Yes, without any qualifiers, was affirmation that
not only as your black girlfriend, but just as a
human being, who you support and love and that you trust.
And I was not feeling that in the world. So
(29:48):
thank you for doing that. Well, you're welcome. I mean, honestly,
I can't give myself a pat on the back, because,
first of all, I want to be a part of
anything you do, because you're badass. You're badass bows. Second
of all, I think that I had a feeling. I
was like, Oh, she's about to do some she's about
to do some wild ship. Let's go. I don't know
(30:11):
what it is, but and sure enough we did some
wild ship and then everybody followed suit. It was like
and that was great, Like, oh my gosh, so many
other hashtags and things like that. Mike came out and
I thought that was great. But um, it was my
honor and my privilege to be a part of something
like that. I'm so glad you guys put that together.
(30:32):
It was so wonderful, and I really do love seeing
the generations, you know, that have come out of it.
Like I think yesterday somebody taggs me and like, uh,
you know, shared the mic now, doctors. I was like, oh,
we got we got shared the mic. That's that's fantastic.
Go ahead, John do it. So did the birth of
Share the Mic come out of just purely your exhaustion
(30:58):
through everything that was happening. Yes, yes, And I this
is what I actually told Glennan, which was that, like,
I was so tired of screaming into the wind. That's
what it feels like. I was like, I have been
saying this for years. I have been talking at the
top of my lungs, and it feels like I'm just
(31:19):
screaming into the wind and just coming back in my face,
you know. And so I was like, I need some
new spaces. I need I need different places where people
haven't heard this before, and that's going to make the difference.
And so yes, it was you and Arianna Huffington's Julian
Roberts and people say the zoom, the first zoom we had.
(31:43):
I was looking through and I was like, oh, we
Bree Lawson, like, oh, weird athlete just right like and
then and then it was just like and then the
athletes and yes, Mandy Moore her this is us. And
then it was and then it was just so funny
(32:04):
because Glennon was there and we were all just kind
of like, oh, hello, this is so normal, Like we're
all here, very normal casual. It's just a cassual day
where a bunch of powerful black and white women get
together to change the world. Yes, And then of course
I was looking up a lot of the black women.
I was like, oh, I already follow her. That's like
Rachel Cargole. Oh my gosh, because she's just like, spit
(32:25):
it to you truthfully and directly. And I love that.
I love her page and even Opal, who I did
share the mic with. She's such a sweet, kind, soft
spoken woman who has so much fire in her that
has done so much with Black Lives Matter. I was
honored to have her take over my Instagram. So I mean,
(32:48):
I just think that you guys did a fantastic job.
And I'm excited to see world tick goes and um
and how this just continues to change people's perspective and
how they're continuing to learn and from this, because this
was a great tool, I think for black women to
get things off of their chest that they wanted to
(33:09):
that they've been saying on their own socials, but they
could say it on a white woman's social Who those followers,
we're probably not following her, And I thought that was
I thought that was just that was the key thing there.
That was My followers loved it. They thought that they
missed opal. They were d M me me, like, did
(33:31):
Chic already come on? Like where was she? I've been
waiting all day? And I'm like, sorry her timing, You're like,
I'm sorry, It's just me, you know, I think I
think it's just it was so it was so wonderful.
It was really a great exercise. And UM, I shared
the mic with UH, with Courtney Kardashian and so even
(33:54):
on her you know, socials and with her followers who
definitely weren't in my space, you know, and I wasn't
in theirs. UM was really fascinating, you know, to to
be on the live and to see their comments and
to interact UM. And I really do hope, I hope
that it it opened up, you know, a window that
we are going to be able to see more people
(34:17):
who are willing to listen to people who are not
like them, you know, and to hear opinions that they
didn't know were even you know, founded. And so I
really truly hope that that's happening. UM, We'll sign me
up for the next one. I'm ready, girl, Okay, you know,
I got I got your phone number, girl. I'm willing. Um.
(34:38):
But actually speaking of that, speaking of hope, can you
talk about what is hopeful? Like? What are you hopeful about?
What are the things that you know even in this time,
as we've talked about COVID and all your businesses, I'm
sure there's you know, some changes that have been made
because of it, you know, and the ways that you're
going to try to innovate in this time. Um, what
(35:00):
are your hopes for the near future even as we
continue on in this space? You know? The biggest thing?
I mean, I think every every category has a different hope,
and like in businesses, I really hope that a lot
of the people who have lost their jobs come out
of this and find success on the other side. I
(35:20):
think for me as a mother right now, UM, I
am so incredibly hopeful for my son who is black
and he is now in a an era where things
are shifting and changing. And when I got pregnant, I
thought about how I want to be raising a young
(35:41):
black boy in this era, in this generation. What does
that mean? And now knowing what I know and seeing
a change that's happening and it may not be happening
as quickly as we may all like it to be.
But it's happening. Gives me hope, and it gives a
perspective of clarity that he may a b okay later.
(36:01):
He's gonna have a great life regardless of everything that's happening.
And I'm hopeful for America. I'm hopeful that covid is
going to um, that we're gonna fight it, and that
we're going to come on the other side of this,
because it has been incredibly detrimental to to the world
and also to America. Alright, y'all, that was my friend,
(36:23):
home girl, entrepreneur, model, producer, and we she does everything.
That was Ashley Graham, and that does it for this
week's episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
But you can check out more of our episodes and
(36:44):
our roster of very impressive guests at Apple Podcast, the
I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your favorite shows,
and for more of Katie and I are up to,
as well as our favorite moments from these conversations, go
find and follow us on Instagram. I'm bosmus St John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Thanks so much for Listening Back to Biz with Katie
(37:09):
and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and
Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currik, bozmus
St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.
The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto.
Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen. Mixing by Derrek Clements.
(37:30):
Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode,
go to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow
Katie Kirk and bozmus St John on Twitter and Instagram.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows,
Hi, everybody. I'm Boma St. John and you're listening to
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Except I am
vibe my damn self, okay, because Katie is sprinting towards
her book deadline and so she's left me all by
my lonesome. But today I'm not by my lonesome. You
know why, because I've got the fabulous Ashley Graham with me.
(00:26):
I'm so happy to be here. Thank you so much
for having me on, Ashley. I love you. I just
love you. You know, since day one, I think it was,
um a love affair. Do you remember the year that was? Oh? Girl,
I don't know. I know I should have actually done
like the research on what year it was because it
(00:46):
was Glamor. It was Glamor Woman of the Year. Yes,
and then they just kept putting us together and stuff,
and then it was that was it. They just knew.
I feel like we kept seeing each other at places, yes,
and then we were like, you know what, I think
we should just be best friends like that. That it was.
That was it. That was the universe was telling us.
And then plus I love justin you know, he looked
(01:09):
I was I was showing him tough love though, because
I kind of felt like your cousin who needs to
give him a hard time, you know what I mean,
So he can't know he's all the way in, you
know what I mean, because you know what that's that's
the best, because just in such a teaser he I mean,
all day long, teasing and joking. But then lay L
(01:30):
Lael and I are like, I mean, she's my little sister,
that's it, She's auntie. Oh my gosh, Isaac, we have
so much to talk about because honey, we were having
jokes um, you know, prior to this conversation about you, um,
(01:52):
because we as in like the producers myself, we were
having jokes um because a is girl. You have done
so much, Okay, you are so much. At one point,
Lauren said she just had to just go ahead and
google Ashley Graham launches because it just felt like you
(02:13):
kept uncovering launches, you know what I mean, Like you
are not just a mom, even though you're a factless, amazing,
wonderful new mom, but you're fashion and beauty icon girl, icon,
change maker, rule breaker, a TV host, a producer and activists,
a wife, somebody's daughter, my bestie. Come on titles because yes, yes, yes,
(02:45):
but all of the titles because you are so much
and you mean so much, and so I'm gonna give
all your flowers right now, okay, because I truly feel
that you have absolutely not just disrupted the way that
we look at fashion beauty. I'm talking about like shattered, disrupted,
(03:05):
changed everything. Nothing was done the same afterwards. Okay, let's
just go ahead and claim that, amen. But also the
fact that you're an entrepreneur who keeps going, who keeps launching,
and even in this time of COVID. So we're going
to talk about all of that well as much as
we can in this time. Okay. So we we got
to start though, from the beginnings of time, okay, because
(03:26):
you're you're in Nebraska right now, right. I am in Nebraska,
justin Isaac. And I came with my mom to Nebraska
the second week of March, and we were like, we
left New York because we just didn't know what was
going to happen. I thought we were going to be
gone for three weeks. I didn't even pack everything, and um,
it's been four months now and it's it's it's been
(03:48):
a very interesting time, as everybody has been having. But Um,
I'm in Nebraska. I'm in the same home that I
grew up in, that I went to high school in,
um with you know, a little bit of different furniture
because my mom has a boyfriend now that's living with us. Yes,
so it's my mom, my, her boyfriend, me and Justin
(04:09):
and Isaac and Isaac, Justin and I have taken over
the whole basement and then they have upstairs, so it
kind of and her basement is bigger than my New
York sized apartment. Putting that out there, so we have
been able to breathe, but it has it has brought
me back to like, wow, this is where it all started.
This is where it all began. Was like here in Nebraska.
(04:32):
These are where my roots are. And so much of
me has been like New York, New York, New York,
New York until I die. And now I'm like back
in a suburb. I see green outside of me. Isaac
loves the grass, and I'm like, okay, do I want
the suburb? Like also because I'll never give up my
apartment in New York, So it brings a lot of
(04:53):
perspective and I kind of I love it because I
like to be a person who can go back and
look at what I've done where I've come from and
be excited for myself and the same for the people
around me and um, and that's exactly what this has done. Yeah,
can you talk a little bit about that though, your
beginnings in Nebraska, because you know, I feel that all
(05:14):
of us like our our own origin stories, stories about
so I mean, listen right here in Colorado, right or die.
There have been so many assumptions, you know, made about
Midwesterners and the way in which the middle behaves or
(05:37):
thinks this is true, this is true. Talk talk a
little bit about about you there? Then? What was that like? Who?
Who was Ashley? Then? What were you like? Are you?
Are you like you are now? Or you were different? Yes? No,
nothing has changed, and this lap hasn't changed. The crazy
(06:00):
thing is my mom has the same laugh. So if
you hear her laugh and hear mind, you don't know
the difference. Anyways, I moved here in eighth grade from Texas,
so it wasn't a culture shock, but it was very
different Texas to Nebraska and um, and when I got here,
I was in eighth grade, I was incredibly curvy. UM,
(06:20):
I just started modeling and I I remember, um my mom.
My mom is from Nebraska, and one of her things
that always growing up was she said, you have to
be a hard worker. Hard work will pay off. And
that is something that people in the Midwest really stand
true to, is their hard work ethics. And I come
(06:42):
from a family in a lineage of farmers, and they
have worked their butts off and um continue to this day.
And I feel like that's in my blood. And I
feel like that's how the people of even even just
the Midwest, I can say broadly, but Lincoln, Nebraska, you
meet incredibly nice people and incredibly hard working people. And
(07:05):
I really love that about the Midwest. Yeah, oh my goodness,
Well did you feel like that helped you as you
then left? I mean still has been the ethos of
who I am in my career. If it weren't for
the fact that I stuck to my guns and bulldozed
(07:25):
through any boundary that was put in my way, um,
that was because of the ethics that my mother gave me. Um,
the niceness I mean I was. I was dropped into
an industry that was known as the mean girls club,
the mean everybody's club. Really, and if you're not this
that or the other. Then you're out and forget about
next season. You're definitely out. And I was nice throughout
(07:48):
the whole thing. I My mom always told me kindness,
UM will get you farther in life than anything, and
it has proven in my career. I think that a smile,
a genuine how are you, and played by the rules, um,
we'll get you incredibly far. Yeah, yeah, no, that's so true. Okay,
So we're going to get back to your career for
a second, but do you want to talk about your
(08:11):
mom and this intergenerational living arrangement that you're in, because
clearly COVID has disrupted all of our lives. Like you said,
you thought you were going to be in Nebraska for
three weeks and here you are four months later, and
we don't even know how long the hell we're gonna
be in these in our situations, And so what has
that been like, Like, you know, returning back to Nebraska
(08:31):
and living in the house where you grew up in
with your mom and her man and your man and
your new little man. That's a that's a lot going
on there. So I think that we must, we must
be very abnormal because it's working. Nobody has gotten into
a fight that has ability issues. We've had friends come
(08:53):
and go. Um, we had we had family come and go,
and all through the midst of all of it, we
have really been working. Like everybody kind of knows their role,
Like my mom is the nanny when I'm on a
zoom or a podcast. Um, Michael is mcgiver and he's
been doing house projects. Um, they just redid a bathroom.
They put up a stone wall on the porch. Justin
(09:16):
has found every coffee shop in Lincoln, and he's been
editing films. Um. And I have just been like feeling
so just incredibly happy that I can have these precious
moments with Isaac, that I'm not on a plane. I
knew that to three months after having him. My team
would probably have been like, hey, you got this, you
(09:38):
got that. In fact, I had things planned. But silver
lining is I have got to I have been able
to spend every waking moment with him, and it is
such a blessing. Oh god, it is. It's so true.
It's such a blessing. Similar to you, My mom um
has been living with us during this quarantine time, and
(09:59):
so it's it's of course her myself and Lael in
the house. Um so it's just female energy that's announced,
intergenerational female energy, and we are we're making it. I
don't know if we're as perfect as y'all, okay, but
we're doing our best too. I grew up with two sisters.
(10:21):
I get it. Mm hmmmmm hmm. Yeah. But you know,
it's all a learning. It's just you know, I'm just
I'm gonna put that silver lining on it. It's all
a learning, Okay, it is, it is. And also, you'll
look back on this, you'll be so happy that you
spent this time with your mom, l with your grandma forever,
right right, That's how I'm looking at him, like, I
(10:41):
get this time with my mom. And my mom and
I talked about death like it's really not a like
it's a conversation that we have. And she's like, okay,
when I die, Like she tells me where her things
are and this and that, and we talked about it
and she told me, she was like, just think about
this time that when you look back, we're gonna have
had this. And it just always like, yeah, that's a
(11:01):
good way to think about it. When we come back.
Ashley and all those damn labels. You're listening to Back
to Biz with Katie and Bows, and I'm chatting with
(11:22):
my friend, model mom entrepreneur Ashley Graham. Let's get back
to it. Can you talk a little bit about when
you began modeling and what actually made you think about
how to innovate and change within that space, because it's
enough to just be who you are in the space.
(11:43):
I mean, listen, there are lots of people who are
in the spaces, are the industries they are in and
trying to achieve just being different in that space. It's
like that just that's enough work. Like you get all
the all the trophies and metals just for having broken
barriers being who you are. But then girl, you have
to go ahead and just go ahead and innovate too.
(12:04):
Can you talk a little bit about that, Like you are,
you're modeling, But where where did those thoughts come from?
Start off? Well, I think where it really began was
knowing that after a certain amount of years of modeling.
I mean I started when I was twelve years old
and I moved to New York at seventeen. I left Nebraska.
(12:27):
It was an oh five and my mom and dad said,
if you don't make it in New York, you're gonna
have to move back, and you're gonna have to go
to college. And you're talking to a dyslexic a d
D barely like like I just kind of like slid
through high school with seats and whatever it took. I
did not want to go to college, so I did
(12:48):
whatever it took, and um, I worked my butt off.
I took every job. I said yes to everything. Um
and that was the beginning of my agency realizing this
girl's down, she's like, she's actually ready and we can
throw her into anything. So then it was probably about
four or five years later when I was married. I
(13:12):
had I think it was just a year that Justin
and I had been married, and my career was great.
I was top of the line catalog girl, Lane Bryant
model just had a commercial that was banned from TV
and it was remember that. Remember it wasn't necessarily like
(13:32):
my name was put on the map, but people in
the industry were like, oh, that's that girl, and um,
Justin came home and there was it was. It was
maybe a year after that, and Justin had come home
and I was still on the couch where he had
left from the morning that he had gone to work,
He's like, why are you still in the same position
on the couch. I was like, it was one of
(13:53):
those really proud wife moments, Like yeah he was. And
around that time he said, what do you want? What
is it that is going to make you happy? And
because he knew that, I felt really stagnant in the
career that I was at at that moment, and it
(14:13):
got my wheels turning because I thought that from that
commercial I could um really capitalize off of it and
turn it into something. And although I did much later,
I thought it was going to happen faster. And I
think that for me everything has been a building block
on top of the other and it hasn't come just
so quickly, but it's come with time and it's also
(14:37):
come with having my ears open. And so when Justin
said that to me, it was like, you're right, what
do people know me as? How can I really amplify?
By the way, haven't we been saying the word amplify
so much? I love it and I'm sure we'll get
to that, um and and how to amplify my voice
(14:57):
and to really into not not just my I always
put my name and what I really wanted to change
in the industry and um and that was start a
lingerie line. So I went to a company. I went
to a few companies and I said, Hey, I want
to do a lingerie line. I'm known as a lingerie girl.
Because that was the question I asked myself, what what
who do people know me as? Oh, they know me, Oh,
you're that lingerie girl. So I started my lingerie line
(15:22):
and I went to a few CEOs, but it ended
up being CEO of Additionelle Rosalind Grinder, and I said,
I want to make bras that look like this, and
I lifted up my shirt to her and I said,
but you see this spillage and you see that And
I said, it's just it's not cute, and she was like, great,
let's do it. Within a couple of months, we had
the contract written up and the next year my capsule
(15:42):
collection launched. Because who knew there's twenty five components to
a bra and it took a year to make, I
don't know. So that was the beginning of oh, this
is more than just modeling. But through that also I
had always been called a plus size model. There was
always a label kind of looming over me, and here
(16:06):
we are. We're in a day and age where labels
are disgusting, nobody wants to be labeled, yet people still
put you in a box for who you are and
who you stand for, and who you're rooting for and
who you're not rooting for. And all I simply wanted
was to just be accepted for who I was Ashley
the model period. So I just kept talking about it,
(16:29):
and I think now looking back, that was the best
thing I could have done, was just continue to talk
about the change I wanted and my experiences through my
own life, like with cellulite, like with dating, like with eating,
my experiences around my body, my insecurities. Who knew everybody
else in the world also had insecurities. I think, Um,
(16:56):
that's it was, really it was really then, and it
was it was justin kind of knocking on my door
and and pushing me, but also me realizing that I
needed to have patients throughout this whole thing, because um,
thirty two now, so here we are, twenty years in
the game. Besides justin, were there any other allies or
how did you find the gosh? I don't know the
(17:16):
wherewithal to be like you know what, Yeah, I know
some linger companies. I'm going to go figure. Let's tell you.
You know, as a model, you think that your agency
is going to hold your hand through a lot of things.
And I tell a lot of young models do it
on your wrong. You know. They had an agent tell me,
we're the ones who opened the door for you. You're
the one who's invited back in. And when she told
(17:41):
me that, it was an eye opener because it was like, oh,
you're just telling me that you can call them, But
I need to do the work. And that's with any career,
any any category that you want to actually get into,
because nobody's going to do the work for you, nobody
is going to sign up for you. You have to
take a leap of faith. You have to get uncomfortable
(18:04):
in a new situation and that's the only place you're
going to actually find growth. And that's what I did.
And I just I mean, I would be on set
talking to the CEOs, to the presidents and being like, hey,
let's have a you know, over lunch, over catering, and
it's like, so I've been thinking about and that's it.
(18:25):
Because I told my agency at the time, I said,
I want to do a lingerie line. They said no, no,
no, no no, no no. They said no to me, and
then I came to them and said, well, where I'm
going to be doing this? And of course they got
to collect a check because that was the contract that
I had. And those are also learning curves that I
had to learn. It's like, you know, who am I
signing my name away to? What am I signing my
name away to? UM? So I'm glad that I had
(18:49):
the right people in my court as far as attorneys
and advisors like that. Yes, but you're telling us and
that's wonderful because I think, I think part of it
is also sharing, you know, sharing the knowledge that you
have as you as you go along. And as I
said before, you know I I obviously am. I am
a fan, not just your friend, but a fan of
(19:10):
your work because of how relentless you are in the
pursuit of continuing to create. It's a very impressive trait.
Thank you. I'm not tired. I wanna I want to
change the world. I think that there's just that's it. Right.
(19:30):
As a mother, there's like a new strength that builds
up in you, I believe, and UM and there's just
so much to be done, and it's like, okay, checklist,
check check check, Okay, what are what are my new
what's my new? Checklist? And um And I'm not afraid.
I'm not I think that a lot of and I
(19:54):
don't want to speak for every woman, but I think
that there are some women who maybe even just people.
Maybe I'm maybe I shouldn't just say women, but I
just work with so many women. It's like I don't
want to ruffle anybody's feathers. Oh I can't do that
because of X, Y and Z or do you think
that that's the right idea. I think it's always the
right idea. Go for what you want. Go you know,
(20:16):
you always will hear like, go after what you believe
in and and what you see for yourself. But if
you're not actually going to put into action those things,
then they're just not going to come forth for you. Yes, suh,
yes suh. It's like put fourth into action. Yes, let's
snap it up, snap it up. It's important. It's important.
It's so important. Now, you know, like I said, you
you've had quite a few launches. And I'm a I'm
(20:39):
a also a big fan of bragging on myself. And
on other people. But because this is your moment, okay,
I want you to tell us, all right, tell us
tell us the people all the things did you have
launched and created? Because I just think it's so inspiring. No,
we really need to hear it, because, like you just said,
(21:02):
you know, you could have continued to be successful as
a model and girl, not just the you know the
commercial which was banned, but also you know your s
I cover just a little bit ago, you know what,
like there there have been some breakthroughs on the modeling front,
(21:23):
but you have done the extra work of being on
a set and talking to somebody. Okay, not just there
to do the job you're doing, but doing the job
that you want to get. Also, tell us, girl, tell
us give us, give us the launches. Just do it,
just do it. Let let us be, let us be.
Just let me just try to go. Oh my god,
(21:43):
there's launcherrase s whim then um clothing, clothing of all sorts.
I have a book, UM, I have a barbie. UM.
I'm a producer of a few different shows. I have
a workout series on YouTube called thank Bod. I have
a show called Fearless on l en Tube. Um, I
(22:06):
have a podcast called Pretty Big Deal because you are
a pretty big deal. Hello. I'm I've had a lot
of amazing covers, a lot of amazing covers. Um, gosh,
I hate talking about myself like this. This is very weird.
I love it. This is the thing which is also
(22:26):
really cool is that a lot of things is I'm
the first curvy model to do a lot of it,
which which I mean, you know, but this is the
way it should This is the way it should be.
We should be having representation of everybody at the table
period um. But I was just thinking about Revlon and
being um a a I'm an ambassador and having a
(22:48):
contract with them, I mean like beauty contracts. You know.
I always had somebody tell me, you know, you're skinny
from the from the neck up, so who cares? And
I'm like, well, what, like, what is that supposed to me?
I know, what is that supposed I've heard it all.
If you've heard it, I've heard it. And that's it,
you know. Oh my god. When we come back, Ashley
(23:09):
and I talked about the change that's in the air
and on the ground. You're listening to Back to Biz
with Katie and Bows and now Ashley and I are
going to talk about share the Mic now. This was
an initiative created by me and three other friends where
(23:30):
we asked white women on Instagram to give up their
platforms for twenty four hours to black women with powerful
stories who could share their narratives with a new audience.
I'm so proud that Ashley Graham was one of the
white women who said yes, and she gave up her
platform to opal to Mattie, who, by the way, has
(23:50):
been a guest on this show before, and it's the
co founder of Black Lives Matter. So let's pick back
up with Ashley right now. I do want to talk
to you about this rule breaking person that you are,
because diversity just does come in all kinds of ways.
(24:11):
But we are in a specific moment right now where
we're talking about all kinds of racial unrest, things that
need to change. You have been such an advocate, such
a voice in fashion and beauty specifically, but of course
across many entertainment spectrums that we've just discussed. Talk to
me about what you are thinking right now, like where
(24:33):
is your heart, where's your head, where's your spirit? You know,
as we think about all of the things that are
coming to the surface and this moment of reckoning that
we're in, especially in the industries that you're in. Thank God,
this is a very tough time to be in right now. UM.
(24:58):
I think that it's hard for a lot of people
to hear some of the stuff. It in some ways
is surprising, which I think is wild, but that it's surprising, um.
And it needs to happen. Everything that's happening right now
needs to happen. And UM, I am so glad that
there have been so many conversations. I'm so glad that
(25:21):
I've been having those conversations prior to all of this
coming out, UM, with my husband, with my best friends. UM,
you know, because these are the conversations that now people
are saying, oh, you have to have these conversations. But
where my head is right now is that, Okay, how
can how can I, as a white woman continue to
(25:42):
educate the white people around me? Because UM, I have
seen and I'm sorry, I'm just going there with you
right now. Yes, I mean okay, UM, I have seen
so many of my black friends and even my husband
who it's it's like they get off the phone and
or they've got so many text messages and they're just
exhausted by having to have explain and talk and the
(26:05):
and and and explain what's happening. And I'm not saying
that I'm an expert or I know much at all,
but what I do know, I'm able to talk to
my family about what I do know, I'm able to
talk to my white friends about and I'm able to say, Okay,
this is what you can do to help, because I
think that there are a lot of people who don't
know what to do right now, and they are feeling um,
(26:28):
nervous or like they don't want to say or do
the wrong thing. But in reality, being silent is doing
the wrong thing. Being silent is being a part of
the problem. So right now my feeling is discussed. My
feeling is I'm I'm horrified, but um but I'm also
(26:50):
so glad that things are happening because it feels like
real change is here and I can even just see
like there's a different kind of hope in some people's eyes. Yes,
it's true, there is, and I do feel that I
feel like this is different. I really do. Maybe it's
the optimist in me speaking, but there's, you know, the
initiative that we did with share the mic, which, by
(27:12):
the way, thank you for asking me to do that.
Can we pause on that for a second, though, because
I also have to tell I have to I have
to say this, which is that um, very much like
Justin or any of your other you know, black friends. UM.
I was so exhausted, so tired. You know. It's like
(27:32):
it was as if there was like a call that
went out that said check on your black friends. And
I was like, what holds, just hold on. I don't.
I don't. I don't need you all to call me
because I'm tired, okay, and I don't want to talk
right now. And I was sitting in my house, unbathed,
without brushing my teeth, exhausted, I didn't want to talk
to anybody, and it was blackout Tuesday, and I talked
(27:57):
to the only people I really want to talk to
with the only person I really want to talk to
you was love e A. Gi Jones is a good girlfriend,
and you know she's a she calls herself the professional troublemaker,
and that's the only person I really want to talk
to because I was like, girl, how can we start
some trouble? Okay? Um? But through that conversation and talking
to Glenn and Doyle as you know, and Stacy bend
(28:19):
it Um, we came up with the idea and the
idea to find white women who had big platforms, you know,
who have followings who may not actually be very diverse
in their own curated social channels, right, because not even
so much about you, but it's like, you know, the
(28:39):
people who follow you, who have decided who they're following,
and perhaps it's not as diverse, and so how could
we insert a different narrative into those platforms? And what
I have to say about you, sister, is that I
think I texted you maybe like three lines, like I
was like, girl, this is gonna do you down? And
(29:03):
you didn't You didn't ask me who else was going
to do it. You didn't say what do I have
to do? You didn't say when do I have to
do it? And what did you say? No? You just
said yes. You just said yes. And I don't think
we have actually had that conversation of how what that
meant to me? You know how how much it meant
(29:27):
because you're simple, Yes, without any qualifiers, was affirmation that
not only as your black girlfriend, but just as a
human being, who you support and love and that you trust.
And I was not feeling that in the world. So
(29:48):
thank you for doing that. Well, you're welcome. I mean, honestly,
I can't give myself a pat on the back, because,
first of all, I want to be a part of
anything you do, because you're badass. You're badass bows. Second
of all, I think that I had a feeling. I
was like, Oh, she's about to do some she's about
to do some wild ship. Let's go. I don't know
(30:11):
what it is, but and sure enough we did some
wild ship and then everybody followed suit. It was like
and that was great, Like, oh my gosh, so many
other hashtags and things like that. Mike came out and
I thought that was great. But um, it was my
honor and my privilege to be a part of something
like that. I'm so glad you guys put that together.
(30:32):
It was so wonderful, and I really do love seeing
the generations, you know, that have come out of it.
Like I think yesterday somebody taggs me and like, uh,
you know, shared the mic now, doctors. I was like, oh,
we got we got shared the mic. That's that's fantastic.
Go ahead, John do it. So did the birth of
Share the Mic come out of just purely your exhaustion
(30:58):
through everything that was happening. Yes, yes, And I this
is what I actually told Glennan, which was that, like,
I was so tired of screaming into the wind. That's
what it feels like. I was like, I have been
saying this for years. I have been talking at the
top of my lungs, and it feels like I'm just
(31:19):
screaming into the wind and just coming back in my face,
you know. And so I was like, I need some
new spaces. I need I need different places where people
haven't heard this before, and that's going to make the difference.
And so yes, it was you and Arianna Huffington's Julian
Roberts and people say the zoom, the first zoom we had.
(31:43):
I was looking through and I was like, oh, we
Bree Lawson, like, oh, weird athlete just right like and
then and then it was just like and then the
athletes and yes, Mandy Moore her this is us. And
then it was and then it was just so funny
(32:04):
because Glennon was there and we were all just kind
of like, oh, hello, this is so normal, Like we're
all here, very normal casual. It's just a cassual day
where a bunch of powerful black and white women get
together to change the world. Yes, And then of course
I was looking up a lot of the black women.
I was like, oh, I already follow her. That's like
Rachel Cargole. Oh my gosh, because she's just like, spit
(32:25):
it to you truthfully and directly. And I love that.
I love her page and even Opal, who I did
share the mic with. She's such a sweet, kind, soft
spoken woman who has so much fire in her that
has done so much with Black Lives Matter. I was
honored to have her take over my Instagram. So I mean,
(32:48):
I just think that you guys did a fantastic job.
And I'm excited to see world tick goes and um
and how this just continues to change people's perspective and
how they're continuing to learn and from this, because this
was a great tool, I think for black women to
get things off of their chest that they wanted to
(33:09):
that they've been saying on their own socials, but they
could say it on a white woman's social Who those followers,
we're probably not following her, And I thought that was
I thought that was just that was the key thing there.
That was My followers loved it. They thought that they
missed opal. They were d M me me, like, did
(33:31):
Chic already come on? Like where was she? I've been
waiting all day? And I'm like, sorry her timing, You're like,
I'm sorry, It's just me, you know, I think I
think it's just it was so it was so wonderful.
It was really a great exercise. And UM, I shared
the mic with UH, with Courtney Kardashian and so even
(33:54):
on her you know, socials and with her followers who
definitely weren't in my space, you know, and I wasn't
in theirs. UM was really fascinating, you know, to to
be on the live and to see their comments and
to interact UM. And I really do hope, I hope
that it it opened up, you know, a window that
we are going to be able to see more people
(34:17):
who are willing to listen to people who are not
like them, you know, and to hear opinions that they
didn't know were even you know, founded. And so I
really truly hope that that's happening. UM, We'll sign me
up for the next one. I'm ready, girl, Okay, you know,
I got I got your phone number, girl. I'm willing. Um.
(34:38):
But actually speaking of that, speaking of hope, can you
talk about what is hopeful? Like? What are you hopeful about?
What are the things that you know even in this time,
as we've talked about COVID and all your businesses, I'm
sure there's you know, some changes that have been made
because of it, you know, and the ways that you're
going to try to innovate in this time. Um, what
(35:00):
are your hopes for the near future even as we
continue on in this space? You know? The biggest thing?
I mean, I think every every category has a different hope,
and like in businesses, I really hope that a lot
of the people who have lost their jobs come out
of this and find success on the other side. I
(35:20):
think for me as a mother right now, UM, I
am so incredibly hopeful for my son who is black
and he is now in a an era where things
are shifting and changing. And when I got pregnant, I
thought about how I want to be raising a young
(35:41):
black boy in this era, in this generation. What does
that mean? And now knowing what I know and seeing
a change that's happening and it may not be happening
as quickly as we may all like it to be.
But it's happening. Gives me hope, and it gives a
perspective of clarity that he may a b okay later.
(36:01):
He's gonna have a great life regardless of everything that's happening.
And I'm hopeful for America. I'm hopeful that covid is
going to um, that we're gonna fight it, and that
we're going to come on the other side of this,
because it has been incredibly detrimental to to the world
and also to America. Alright, y'all, that was my friend,
(36:23):
home girl, entrepreneur, model, producer, and we she does everything.
That was Ashley Graham, and that does it for this
week's episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
But you can check out more of our episodes and
(36:44):
our roster of very impressive guests at Apple Podcast, the
I Heart Radio app, or wherever you get your favorite shows,
and for more of Katie and I are up to,
as well as our favorite moments from these conversations, go
find and follow us on Instagram. I'm bosmus St John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Thanks so much for Listening Back to Biz with Katie
(37:09):
and Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and
Katie Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Currik, bozmus
St John, and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen.
The associate producers are Derek Clements, Eliza Costas, and Emily Pinto.
Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen. Mixing by Derrek Clements.
(37:30):
Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode,
go to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow
Katie Kirk and bozmus St John on Twitter and Instagram.
For more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to
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