June 25, 2020 • 33 mins
Judd Apatow is a comedy powerhouse in Hollywood. From “The 40-Year-Old Virgin” to “Knocked Up” and “This is 40,” Judd has altered the comedy-making template, finding the funny in relatable and vulnerable (even cringeworthy) characters and situations. But what about the responsibility that comes with that power? In this moment of national reckoning on race, what are leaders like Judd doing to lift up black voices and stories? On this episode of “Back to Biz with Katie and Boz,” co-hosts Katie Couric and Bozoma Saint John talk to Judd about how Hollywood can bring diversity to the big screen, the future of moviemaking — and going — in a social-distanced world, as well as his new movie. “The King of Staten Island,” starring Pete Davidson, is an incredibly personal story (based on Pete’s own life) about loss, trauma, and mental health, which Judd says is perfect for this moment. The movie is available to watch on demand.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm bosmas st John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bose Bose.
This week, we have a bit of a departure, you know.
When you and I decided we wanted to do this
podcast together, we were really talking about getting back to
biz or how businesses would change in light of the pandemic.
(00:25):
But of course everything has changed because of this huge
cultural moment we're witnessing with Black Lives Matter. Yes, that's right, Katie,
I mean, right now, we're finding that there are so
many narratives being told, not just about the pandemic, but
you're right about Black Lives Matter and about so many
things that are concerning us in our society, and so
(00:48):
really interesting to talk to someone who is at the
center of creating narratives and stories that we're all paying
attention to. Absolutely, and Judd Apatow is just that a writer, produced,
sir director. He's got a new movie out called The
King of Staten Island starring Pete Davidson. It's really semi
autobiographical because it's about Pete's own challenges and journey of
(01:14):
losing his father. His mom is played by Marissa Tomay
and his little sister is actually played by Judd's daughter
maud Right, except even the little sisters leaving the nest.
She set it off to college, and she's leaving her
twenties something year old brother behind. You're gonna be okay
without me here? You don't think I could five here
without you? Okay, Just don't be a dick. Okay, it
(01:36):
would be nice to mom. Okay, don't give her a
hard time. She deserves a break. I always give her
a break. When when's what am I gonna get my break? Like?
What are you talking about? All? Anyone ever does this
worry about you? I was ignored my entire childhood because
of you. Yeah, I forgot that my childhood was so dandy. Okay,
you don't get that crazy your whole life just because
dad died. Okay, at least you got to know him well,
(01:57):
your love. You didn't get to know him, Okay, because
that's why you're almos is normal. If you got to
know me, would have known that he was like the
coolest guy ever, and that wouldn't ruin the rest of
your life. Okay, But what are you gonna do? Are
you gonna get a job or are you going to
leave the house. I don't know. I'm gonna open that
tattoo restaurant. Well, I don't know if that tattoo restaurant
is the real winner. We know about business, and that's
(02:19):
not it. I don't think so either, right, But there
really is so much to unpack in this movie. I mean,
it's also dealing with trauma and mental health in a
way that feels really direct and refreshing. I was really
impressed with this movie Bows, But of course it was
done a while ago, and we'll be talking to jud
about the future not only of movie making but movie going.
(02:41):
But we wanted to check in first with the present.
How he's doing months into this pandemic hold up at home,
one man among many women, his lovely wife Leslie Man,
and his nearly grown daughters Iris and Maud. That might
have been one of my favorite parts about the whole conversation,
how he got the takeover. So let's start there, how
(03:04):
Gramont and Iris. Now, Jud, there are twenty two and seventeen,
and that's not the age where you want to hang
out with your parents a lot. You know, that's the
moment when you leave and you're so happy to get
away from your parents. So it's a very weird moment
for us all to be stuck together because now we're
not like a family. We are like weird roommates. Because
(03:29):
when you spend this much time together and they're that old,
I mean, Iris will be eighteen in October, you can't
really even give them advice or tell them what to do.
You can't ground them because we're all grounded together. And
I can tell the people we're five minutes from doing
mushrooms together at this point. Well, the family dynamics are
(03:51):
very interesting during these strange times. But we're all lucky
and we're all surviving. And I keep thinking about how
four in it I am, because there's so many people
who are really really hurting, so jud we have so
much ground to cover. You've been so busy, and we're
excited to talk to you about your new movie. But
(04:11):
first I just want to go back in time quickly,
because you were a bit of a late bloomer. You
didn't direct your first movie until you were thirty five
years old, because you had a hard time convincing studio
executives that your ideas had potential. What was it about
your form of comedy or your brand of comedy. Judd
(04:31):
that studio had studio exact same, thanks, but no thanks.
It's hard to know. I think that you know, for
like Freaks and Geeks, which was about high school kids,
but it was you know, it was the weirdos. It
was the potheads and the geeks, and there wasn't a
lot of those on television, especially in the lead roles.
(04:52):
Back then, it used to be that everyone was gorgeous
and it was like a soap opera and it was
very you know, Dawson's Creek style. And someone who wrote
an article and they said, well, this is like independent
film on television. And at that time, you know, before streaming,
before cable, when in that direction we just seemed weird.
(05:14):
I mean, freaksing Geeks right now would totally fit in
on television. It might even be corny compared to what
everyone is watching at this point. But back then it
just seemed very odd to show the problems of teenagers
where it didn't get solved, where it was just painful,
and then sometimes things would go terribly wrong and then
(05:34):
the episode would end and you realize, oh, this is
about that. Sometimes it's just hard, and sometimes you lean
on your friends and it doesn't work out, and you
don't get the girl, and you don't get the good
position in in sports, and you're kind of humiliated by everyone,
and you're just trying to hold it together to survive
high school. And so I think some of the ideas
I like that maybe they were they were so truthful
(05:57):
that the culture wasn't doing a lot of that at
the time. But then suddenly with everything that HBO was
doing and uh whatever, all the all the shows, what
what the sopranos didn't lean have done him? Did it?
The culture changed. You have a new movie, The King
of Staten Island, and it had to be released on
(06:18):
demand instead of in theaters for obvious reasons, as we've
been discussing. But you also said that you feel this
movie somehow was destined to be seen right now. Why
why is that? Why does it need to be seen
right now? I mean the movie is about, uh, you know,
a family struggled to get over the death of the
(06:38):
father who was a firefighter, and in real life, Pete
Davidson's father lost his life in nine eleven. In the movie,
it's you know, it's a fabricated situation, but it's about
a family who's frozen in their grief. They haven't really
moved forward the way they should, in a healthy way.
And only when Pete's character's mother starts dating another fireman
(07:00):
played by Bill Burr his mom's played by Marissa Tomay,
does it force them to confront everything that has held
them back, all the trauma that's prevented them from moving forward.
And I felt like the movie is about sudden loss,
It's about grief, it's about the ways it can impede
(07:21):
our lives, and it's also about firefighters and heroes and
nurses and first responders. So when I was asked, you
know when you put it out on video on demand
now versus releasing it in a year, I thought, well,
this is kind of the subject that we're all dealing with.
How do we deal with sudden change and loss and
(07:43):
grief and how do people come together and help each
other and heal? So maybe it's supposed to come out
right now. It felt weird to hold onto it to
say that's his way to year, so it can be
in theaters, Like, why do I need it in theaters?
Is that an ego trip for me? Is because I
need the experience of the of the audience, or did
(08:04):
I make the movie to make people happy, to help
them go through something emotionally that I think might be helpful.
And then I thought, maybe it's supposed to come out now,
maybe that's what it was destined to do. Yeah, but
you're right, I feel like movies content in general is
sort of a therapy, right. This probably brought up a
(08:25):
lot of difficult, unresolved issues for Pete. Did you find
that did Did it bring up anything even for yourself?
It definitely did for for all of us. In terms
of Pete, we sat around for years talking NonStop about
how it felt to, you know, to lose a parent,
(08:46):
and to lose a parent at seven when you don't
even really understand what's going on. And then there's this
added dimension, which is your father dies in nine eleven
and the entire world is talking about nine eleven for
the rest of your life. It doesn't really go away.
And so I would what I would say to Pete is,
you know, my mother died of cancer in two thousand
and eight, and it was very traumatic, and how it
(09:08):
happened was very traumatic, but no one talks about it.
So I can go years and no one will mention
my mother other than my sister, and and so in
some ways it gives me some separation, It allows me
to heal, it allows me to develop, you know, this
life after losing her. For him, people talk to him
(09:29):
about it every day of his life, multiple times a day,
and it's connected to their grief and their loss, and
so in a way, he's he's in a Groundhog Day
loop about it, and he has his own private grief.
He just misses his dad. I mean, at the core
of it, he just misses his dad and he and
he missed out on a relationship that he really grieves for.
(09:52):
We don't really talk about it much, but yeah I missed.
Oh h yeah, let me too. And uh, I'm sorry
(10:17):
that I and so difficult to deal with. That's right,
get it together. It's just sort I think it. I mean,
I talked a lot with Pete about when he was
(10:37):
a kid, he was having a lot of mental health
struggles and he used to listen to Kid Cutty and
Kid Cutty had all this amazing music about his anxiety
and depression. And Pete said, that really got me through it.
And in the last few years, a lot of what
we've been working on is content about mental health, and
Pete wanted to make a movie that was about his
(10:58):
story so that if you were home depressed or suicidal
or had anxiety, you might watch this movie and relate
to Pete and and see some hope and how he
got better. Well, I think it's just so remarkable that, um,
we can use art in this way to find healing,
you know, for a number of different things that happen
(11:19):
in our lives. But I also think it's remarkable that
you're able to sort of nurture that kind of storytelling,
you know, and with talent that sometimes maybe would get
lost otherwise. Um, And we know that you certainly mentored
a lot of young talent and provided vehicles for people
like Amy Schumer and Kristin Wigg and Seth Rogan. What
(11:40):
is it that you see in talent like that, you know,
in their in their own storytelling, or how to nurture
that type of vulnerability? I mean, I think that clearly
through Gary Shandon, who I worked with the Larry Sanders Show,
I learned a lot about mining your life for your art.
(12:00):
And I think as a fan of music, I always
was drawn to people who would tell stories that were
clearly from their lives. It could be James Taylor, could
be the Beatles. You love those songs that you knew
were real. I think as a kid that was very
important to me. And then I think Richard Pryor in
a way taught me, oh, you would just work it
out on stage like he just told he told the
(12:22):
stories of his life. Here's the things I've done, here's
the thing things I've done which are terrible, Here's the
mistakes I've made, Here's what I've learned. And there were
a lot of artists like that, Nirvana, just just all
these people where you thought, oh, they're not kidding, They're
really showing you the raw, real stuff. And I learned
(12:44):
with Gary that you could take your life as the
raw materials for storytelling, and they blur the line. Some
of it's totally made up, some of it is actually
very close to the truth. And a writer's room at
a TV show, everyone tells their stories. And then that
led to me. Iiding knocked Up and forty Virgin and
um for Virgin with Steve and this is forty And
(13:08):
then I started trying to mind my stuff, which is
always a combination of made up and and true things
that you're thinking about and then when I met Pete,
I mean, that was as close to the bone as
you can get. But he was as brave as anyone
I've ever met in terms of I'm willing to go
all the way Judd, There's no aspect of this that
I'm going to hold back. Most people hold back something
(13:31):
like no, I can't go that far, that's too darker,
that that will make me look weird. And Pete's like,
let's just show all of them when we come back.
Judd Apatow on how to make Hollywood a more diverse,
welcoming place for all storytellers. You're listening to a bis
(14:00):
with Katie and Bows and we're talking with Judd Apatow,
who is I'm sure you're aware a comedy powerhouse in Hollywood,
but what about the responsibility that comes with that power.
Here we are in a moment of national reckoning on race,
so we wanted to explore what leaders like Judd can
do to be the change that we want Hollywood to be.
(14:21):
And it's interesting because Judd has actually faced criticism about
the lack of diversity in his own work, So we
started there asking him where his head was at with
all of this and what he can do to better
elevate black stories. You know, yeah, it's and it's an
ever evolving thing. You know, for me, for inces with
freaks and geeks. When I went to high school, there
(14:44):
was one black person in thirteen years of high school
on Long Island where I grew up. So if I
did a high school show and I said, well, let's
make that, you can do that, and I think in
this era you would do that. But at the time,
we just wrote about what our high schools looked like
(15:04):
and that was not that uh, and maybe that was
completely wrong at the time, but you know, we came
from places that we're not diverse. Then, when I worked
with Lena Dunham on Girls, at the time, there weren't
shows with female showrunners who were the lead and the
producer and the director. And that became something that I
(15:28):
think really was a game changer for women running their shows.
That had led to shows like Fleabag and all these
other programs where women could create a show for themselves
and start it and direct it and produce it. And
then some people were like, well, that should be more diverse,
and you're like, okay, I I can see that that
we need to keep broadening it. We're all figuring out like, well,
(15:49):
what is truthful? How would you do it? And what
I feel like the solution to it is it's like
what we did with The Big Six, which is I
met Premale Ninjiohnny and Emily Gordon and they wanted to
write this story about how they met and a lot
of it was about, you know, a family of people
from Pakistan and their experience in America and how their
(16:12):
family worked. And I'll tell you, no one wants it
to make it. You know, it doesn't matter how successful
I've been, I couldn't sell that script. Uh and Emily
and Kamal had an amazing story and they're brilliant and
Kamil is an incredible actor and he's on television no One.
So we just developed it for years for free. No
(16:34):
one paid them, and then we got film Nation to
give us five million dollars to make the movie. Right,
so we get five million dollars to make the movie. Now,
my normally my movies cost about thirty million dollars. So
right there, you could say there's almost a systemic racism
in the budget, right because there's a belief that no
one will want to see a kid from Pakistan as
(16:57):
the lead in a comedy in America. So the movie
gets made. Film Nation stands behind us and gives it.
They give us the money. They're great, but none of
the studios did we show it at Sundance. It's a
big hit. They sell it for a lot of money
to Amazon, and then lions Gate distributes it, and now
you've got the corporations behind it because we've proven it's good.
(17:21):
And then it makes a ton of money, right, it
makes a ton of money, and it basically becomes an
example that the racism which makes it hard to make
this movie is all bullshit. It's completely unfair and it's
not even accurate to what the audience wants. The audience
wanted that movie. There's no reason why it should have
been a five million dollar movie. It's could have been
(17:43):
a thirty million dollar movie. And and that's how I've
learned to deal with us, which is, can I give
opportunities to diverse people to tell their stories and maybe
I could use my wisdom to help them, And you
know that seems to be the best way forward. And
the truth is, and you you always sound lame saying it.
(18:03):
I can't tell you how many projects I've tried to
make that didn't work where we couldn't get the script right.
You know, I did a pilot with Kevin Hart in
two thousand and two. I was like the first guy
to go, I think Kevin Hart's gonna be the biggest
star in the world. And it took a long time
after that for him to figure it out. But we
were on that on that train from day one. Like
he was undeclared, he's in the four ye old Virgin.
(18:25):
But I personally was never good enough to crack the
script to help Kevin make it. You know, he did
that in his own work that had nothing to do
with me. And so we try and sometimes we we
just fail. Also, I think the brilliant thing um that
you just said was about even the example of your
(18:45):
high school, right, and that if you were to write
something about your high school experience, you would write about
this big class with this one kid in it. And
that is the that is the middle of the issue, right.
It's not so much about having white people right black stories.
It's about having black people right black stories, diversifying the storytelling,
(19:07):
and so I think it's it's really quite important and
there's a responsibility of those who have the door open
to find ways to expend it so that our storytelling
can become more diverse too, because I also think it's
about systemic racism, Like why is Judd going to a
school or me for that matter, where there's like a
(19:28):
handful of black kids in the entire school. But I
think that's a reflection of, you know, so many issues
that created this de facto segregation that Judd and I
and Bows you to a certain extent too, even though
you're a little younger than we are, and well, I'm
the old one of the group. We're all about ten
years apart um. But I think it's it's a reflection
(19:52):
of what was happening in society when Judd and I
were growing up. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Judd,
to to build on something you said, why are these
network executives or these studio executives so clueless? I think
what's so interesting you said, they weren't reflecting what the
audience wanted, right, you know, so they're saying no, and
yet the audience is saying yes. So why is there
(20:15):
such a disconnect? Is it because of the people who
hold these positions of power to green light a project.
I think that there's a lot of theories that are
just wrong, and it's not it's it's about every aspect
of diversity. When we made Bridesmaids, I didn't think we
were doing anything to help women. I mean, I grew
(20:38):
up on Gilder Radner and Tody Fields and Lucille Ball.
There was never any part of me that thought that
men were funnier than women. If anything, I think that
my greatest heroes were women. So I just wanted to
make a movie with Kristin Wig. I didn't think that
this was symbolic. I didn't think it was about helping
women prove they could be you know, the deads of
(21:00):
movies or female driven comedies. I just thought christ and
Wiggs a genius. Let's make a movie with her. And
then people started saying, you know, if the movie does well,
maybe it'll help the studios realized they should make more
movies with female comedic leads. I never thought of it
as a test case, and then it turned out it
(21:21):
did very well, and it did lead to a bunch
of other movies happening for different people. But that was
a theory, like the studios were not pursuing women to
be the leads of comedies in the way they should have.
It would happen here and there, but you know, there'd
be a Goldie Hawn movie, or you know, every once
(21:44):
in a while someone would get a shot, but it
was still way less than man And so for me,
I've just tried to be more aware of it. I
like being in terrain where no one is so one
of the reasons why I do certain things just because
oh this this community isn't getting a movie. It's fun
(22:05):
to try to make a great one because it's not
something that everyone has burnt out. But I realized I
just need partners. I need to partner up with with
these people. And we have a lot of projects that
we hope get done. We're doing a gay romantic comedy
with Billy Eichner, and there hasn't been a big studio
(22:25):
romantic comedy like that. It's it's if it's been done.
It's been done maybe once or twice ever. But he's
got the big budget. He doesn't have the big sick budget.
He's got the real budget from Universal Studios. And he
wrote a hysterical script and it's and the truth is.
It's kind of sad that it's a big deal to
get it. It's very sad, but that's what we're trying
(22:47):
to do. We're trying to tell great stories and partner
up with people that we believe in, and hopefully that's
the way we can make a big difference. We're going
to take a short break, but when we come back,
Judd tells us how he thinks the pandemic will change
the movie industry, perhaps for good. You're listening to Back
(23:17):
to Biz with Katie and Bows, and as we wrap
up with Judd Apataw, we asked him about the future
of movie making and if he's going to be one
of the people dipping his toe back into filming in
the middle of a pandemic. I know I'm very scared,
and I will be among the last people to say
let's go, because I really would never want to put
(23:40):
anyone in danger. I know when when this time passes
and things are safe, everyone will run back to the
movie theaters, just like they're trying to run back to
everything now before they should. But there's going to be
a very painful pause for the industry. A lot of
movie theaters are closing, though, I mean, some people say
saying this is just accelerating a trend that we were
(24:02):
already witnessing, and and that is kind of the demise
of movie theaters, which would really make me sad. But
do you think that movie watching is going to come back?
I do. I do because people might just miss it.
They can come back bigger because people are tired of
being in their homes binging, and maybe it will make
them appreciate the experience. I think it will always be there.
(24:24):
The question is what will we make for the theater
and what will we make for home viewing. So everyone
wants to see spectacle, right, We want to see explosions
and superheroes in a movie theater. People aren't really going
to the theater to see what used to be the
mid price drama. You don't see the studios spending dollars
(24:49):
on a drama the way they used to make a
Meryl Street movie. Uh, there's less of that happening. It's
still happening, it's but it's kind of lower budgeted and
going straight to streaming a fair amount of the time.
And so I think what's going to change is what
goes in the theater. And it's hard to know, you
(25:10):
know what to make of that, because they're making some
great movies that are meant for streaming, and maybe an
independent filmmaker that used to make a movie for two
million dollars in a theater might get ten million dollars
to make it for Netflix. And so there's all sorts
of trade offs. Yeah, well, we're seeing good Lord, We're
(25:31):
seeing a lot of drama in our in our regular
lives right, not even in the theater. And clearly the
election is moving. Lord help us all Um. We just
had this great conversation with Stacy Abrams last week, who
is just so impressive. I I really admire her, um,
and I know that you share her concern about voter
suppression in this country. What initially sparked your activism around
(25:57):
this issue in particular, I, I mean generally, My acted
activism was set off by the fact that when Donald
Trump started birtherism, I was just really disgusted. I wrote
some jokes for the President for the Correspondence dinner that
made fun of Trump. Now I know that he's taken
(26:20):
some flat lately, but no one is happier, no one
is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest.
Than the Donaldson and that's because he can finally get
back to focusing on the issues that matter. Why did
we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell?
(26:47):
And where are Biggie and Tupac. The reason why some
of those jokes are harsh was because I was so
annoyed and scared about his looming presence, and I even
said to everybody, I think we should go harder at him.
And this is a real destructive force in our country.
(27:09):
And my worst nightmares have come true about what could happen.
And I think the only way he stays in office
is through voter suppression. That's the only way he does
it is by setting up rules and working with local,
uh you know, state governments to make it harder for
(27:31):
people to vote in areas where he might not you know,
be in favor. And that is something that is going
to be handled in the courts. Obviously, I've always supported
the A C l U because they do a lot
of work fighting voter suppression. He's already saying that voting
(27:52):
by mail will be filled with fraud when there is
no fraud at all, There's no history of it. But
that's Stacy pointed out. Judd Stacy pointed out that there
is very little voter fraud and that is so misleading,
and that's what they always fall back on when it
comes to making voting more accessible to more people. Well, also,
(28:12):
I don't know if people talk about it enough. When
Donald Trump ran for president in two thousand and sixteen,
he was saying it was rigged before he won. So
this is his playbook, which is to set him itself
up to always win. Even when he loses, he says
it's unfair before it happens. They should pull out all
(28:33):
the clips of him saying this in two thousand and sixteen.
And it's happening while he's colluding with Russia. It's happening
while he's doing all sorts of things which are unethical
or illegal. So he sets himself up to have a
grievance and to get people worked up. And then he's
put in a lot of judges and he hopes that
he could say the election is unfair and then maybe
(28:53):
the Supreme Court supports some bizarre ruling that keeps him
in office, or maybe there has to be a second election.
And you know, it sounds crazy, but there are people
on that Court that are going to support anything that
he says. And luckily, but we saw what happened with Daca. Uh.
You know this week he's not winning everything at the
(29:13):
Supreme Court, but he's certainly gambling on it. With this election,
I would assume. I mean, you're in such a great position,
jud you have so much influence and power in Hollywood,
and I'm curious how you plan to use it or
what you're what you're thinking about and looking at in
terms of projects right now, in terms of you know,
(29:36):
my company, where we do a lot of development. I
feel good because we were in this mindset for a while,
you know, we we we have been looking to do
diverse projects. We've been looking to do things which are
more political. I feel like in all areas it's not
just you know, it's diversity of thought as well. There's
(29:58):
so many things that we don't talk about, and when
we do talk about it and people feel seen and
less alone, it really helps them in their lives and
inspires them in so many ways. So I hope that
that's what comes of this this time. And kindness. You know,
we need more kindness. We need to lift each other
up and take care of each other. And make out
(30:18):
our our focus that was Judd Apataw and his latest
movie is The King of Staten Island, available on demand.
That does it for this episode of Back to Biz
with Katie and Bos. And you know what's crazy, We're
nearly at the halfway mark of this series. So are
you having fun doing this? Bos? No, I'm not. This
(30:40):
is a lot of pressure. Well, you're doing a great
job and I love having you as my partner. Well,
thank you, Katie. No, I really I do love you
and I'm having a blast. And of course, I mean
we've been so inspired, and I've been so inspired by
our guests t D. Jake's opal to Matty, Mary Barros,
Stacy Abrahams. I mean, come on on, Stacy Abraham's all
(31:01):
of these goals. I mean, it's just been awesome. I know,
we've been really lucky that we've gotten so many people
to talk with us, especially during this critically important time
really in our nation's history. But we want to hear
from you, dear listeners, So let us know what you
think of our conversations and who you'd like us to
speak with on one of these podcasts. You can leave
(31:22):
a voicemail for Back to biz at eight four four
four seven nine seven eight eight three. That's eight four
four or seven nine seven eight eight three. Or you
can email us at info at Katie correct dot com.
Just put back to Biz in the subject line, and
you can also go straight to Apple Podcasts and leave
(31:45):
us review. Katie, you know what, we already have one review. Really,
Oh gosh, I hope it's nice. Pose it's it's all right,
it's good, it's good. Don't worry. In the meantime, keep
up with the show on Apple Podcasts, the I Heart Radio,
Apple wherever listen to your favorite shows, and don't forget
to follow us on social media, where you'll find clips
of our favorite moments from the interviews. Until next time.
(32:08):
I'm bozemus St John and I'm Katie Curic and this
is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks so
much for listening, guys. Back to Biz with Katie and
Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie
Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurrik, bozmus St John,
and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The
(32:29):
associate producers are Derek Clements Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto.
Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements.
Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode,
go to Katie kirk dot com. You can also follow
Katie Kurik and bozmas st John on Twitter and Instagram.
(32:50):
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. BA
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Couric and I'm bosmas st John
and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bose Bose.
This week, we have a bit of a departure, you know.
When you and I decided we wanted to do this
podcast together, we were really talking about getting back to
biz or how businesses would change in light of the pandemic.
(00:25):
But of course everything has changed because of this huge
cultural moment we're witnessing with Black Lives Matter. Yes, that's right, Katie,
I mean, right now, we're finding that there are so
many narratives being told, not just about the pandemic, but
you're right about Black Lives Matter and about so many
things that are concerning us in our society, and so
(00:48):
really interesting to talk to someone who is at the
center of creating narratives and stories that we're all paying
attention to. Absolutely, and Judd Apatow is just that a writer, produced,
sir director. He's got a new movie out called The
King of Staten Island starring Pete Davidson. It's really semi
autobiographical because it's about Pete's own challenges and journey of
(01:14):
losing his father. His mom is played by Marissa Tomay
and his little sister is actually played by Judd's daughter
maud Right, except even the little sisters leaving the nest.
She set it off to college, and she's leaving her
twenties something year old brother behind. You're gonna be okay
without me here? You don't think I could five here
without you? Okay, Just don't be a dick. Okay, it
(01:36):
would be nice to mom. Okay, don't give her a
hard time. She deserves a break. I always give her
a break. When when's what am I gonna get my break? Like?
What are you talking about? All? Anyone ever does this
worry about you? I was ignored my entire childhood because
of you. Yeah, I forgot that my childhood was so dandy. Okay,
you don't get that crazy your whole life just because
dad died. Okay, at least you got to know him well,
(01:57):
your love. You didn't get to know him, Okay, because
that's why you're almos is normal. If you got to
know me, would have known that he was like the
coolest guy ever, and that wouldn't ruin the rest of
your life. Okay, But what are you gonna do? Are
you gonna get a job or are you going to
leave the house. I don't know. I'm gonna open that
tattoo restaurant. Well, I don't know if that tattoo restaurant
is the real winner. We know about business, and that's
(02:19):
not it. I don't think so either, right, But there
really is so much to unpack in this movie. I mean,
it's also dealing with trauma and mental health in a
way that feels really direct and refreshing. I was really
impressed with this movie Bows, But of course it was
done a while ago, and we'll be talking to jud
about the future not only of movie making but movie going.
(02:41):
But we wanted to check in first with the present.
How he's doing months into this pandemic hold up at home,
one man among many women, his lovely wife Leslie Man,
and his nearly grown daughters Iris and Maud. That might
have been one of my favorite parts about the whole conversation,
how he got the takeover. So let's start there, how
(03:04):
Gramont and Iris. Now, Jud, there are twenty two and seventeen,
and that's not the age where you want to hang
out with your parents a lot. You know, that's the
moment when you leave and you're so happy to get
away from your parents. So it's a very weird moment
for us all to be stuck together because now we're
not like a family. We are like weird roommates. Because
(03:29):
when you spend this much time together and they're that old,
I mean, Iris will be eighteen in October, you can't
really even give them advice or tell them what to do.
You can't ground them because we're all grounded together. And
I can tell the people we're five minutes from doing
mushrooms together at this point. Well, the family dynamics are
(03:51):
very interesting during these strange times. But we're all lucky
and we're all surviving. And I keep thinking about how
four in it I am, because there's so many people
who are really really hurting, so jud we have so
much ground to cover. You've been so busy, and we're
excited to talk to you about your new movie. But
(04:11):
first I just want to go back in time quickly,
because you were a bit of a late bloomer. You
didn't direct your first movie until you were thirty five
years old, because you had a hard time convincing studio
executives that your ideas had potential. What was it about
your form of comedy or your brand of comedy. Judd
(04:31):
that studio had studio exact same, thanks, but no thanks.
It's hard to know. I think that you know, for
like Freaks and Geeks, which was about high school kids,
but it was you know, it was the weirdos. It
was the potheads and the geeks, and there wasn't a
lot of those on television, especially in the lead roles.
(04:52):
Back then, it used to be that everyone was gorgeous
and it was like a soap opera and it was
very you know, Dawson's Creek style. And someone who wrote
an article and they said, well, this is like independent
film on television. And at that time, you know, before streaming,
before cable, when in that direction we just seemed weird.
(05:14):
I mean, freaksing Geeks right now would totally fit in
on television. It might even be corny compared to what
everyone is watching at this point. But back then it
just seemed very odd to show the problems of teenagers
where it didn't get solved, where it was just painful,
and then sometimes things would go terribly wrong and then
(05:34):
the episode would end and you realize, oh, this is
about that. Sometimes it's just hard, and sometimes you lean
on your friends and it doesn't work out, and you
don't get the girl, and you don't get the good
position in in sports, and you're kind of humiliated by everyone,
and you're just trying to hold it together to survive
high school. And so I think some of the ideas
I like that maybe they were they were so truthful
(05:57):
that the culture wasn't doing a lot of that at
the time. But then suddenly with everything that HBO was
doing and uh whatever, all the all the shows, what
what the sopranos didn't lean have done him? Did it?
The culture changed. You have a new movie, The King
of Staten Island, and it had to be released on
(06:18):
demand instead of in theaters for obvious reasons, as we've
been discussing. But you also said that you feel this
movie somehow was destined to be seen right now. Why
why is that? Why does it need to be seen
right now? I mean the movie is about, uh, you know,
a family struggled to get over the death of the
(06:38):
father who was a firefighter, and in real life, Pete
Davidson's father lost his life in nine eleven. In the movie,
it's you know, it's a fabricated situation, but it's about
a family who's frozen in their grief. They haven't really
moved forward the way they should, in a healthy way.
And only when Pete's character's mother starts dating another fireman
(07:00):
played by Bill Burr his mom's played by Marissa Tomay,
does it force them to confront everything that has held
them back, all the trauma that's prevented them from moving forward.
And I felt like the movie is about sudden loss,
It's about grief, it's about the ways it can impede
(07:21):
our lives, and it's also about firefighters and heroes and
nurses and first responders. So when I was asked, you
know when you put it out on video on demand
now versus releasing it in a year, I thought, well,
this is kind of the subject that we're all dealing with.
How do we deal with sudden change and loss and
(07:43):
grief and how do people come together and help each
other and heal? So maybe it's supposed to come out
right now. It felt weird to hold onto it to
say that's his way to year, so it can be
in theaters, Like, why do I need it in theaters?
Is that an ego trip for me? Is because I
need the experience of the of the audience, or did
(08:04):
I make the movie to make people happy, to help
them go through something emotionally that I think might be helpful.
And then I thought, maybe it's supposed to come out now,
maybe that's what it was destined to do. Yeah, but
you're right, I feel like movies content in general is
sort of a therapy, right. This probably brought up a
(08:25):
lot of difficult, unresolved issues for Pete. Did you find
that did Did it bring up anything even for yourself?
It definitely did for for all of us. In terms
of Pete, we sat around for years talking NonStop about
how it felt to, you know, to lose a parent,
(08:46):
and to lose a parent at seven when you don't
even really understand what's going on. And then there's this
added dimension, which is your father dies in nine eleven
and the entire world is talking about nine eleven for
the rest of your life. It doesn't really go away.
And so I would what I would say to Pete is,
you know, my mother died of cancer in two thousand
and eight, and it was very traumatic, and how it
(09:08):
happened was very traumatic, but no one talks about it.
So I can go years and no one will mention
my mother other than my sister, and and so in
some ways it gives me some separation, It allows me
to heal, it allows me to develop, you know, this
life after losing her. For him, people talk to him
(09:29):
about it every day of his life, multiple times a day,
and it's connected to their grief and their loss, and
so in a way, he's he's in a Groundhog Day
loop about it, and he has his own private grief.
He just misses his dad. I mean, at the core
of it, he just misses his dad and he and
he missed out on a relationship that he really grieves for.
(09:52):
We don't really talk about it much, but yeah I missed.
Oh h yeah, let me too. And uh, I'm sorry
(10:17):
that I and so difficult to deal with. That's right,
get it together. It's just sort I think it. I mean,
I talked a lot with Pete about when he was
(10:37):
a kid, he was having a lot of mental health
struggles and he used to listen to Kid Cutty and
Kid Cutty had all this amazing music about his anxiety
and depression. And Pete said, that really got me through it.
And in the last few years, a lot of what
we've been working on is content about mental health, and
Pete wanted to make a movie that was about his
(10:58):
story so that if you were home depressed or suicidal
or had anxiety, you might watch this movie and relate
to Pete and and see some hope and how he
got better. Well, I think it's just so remarkable that, um,
we can use art in this way to find healing,
you know, for a number of different things that happen
(11:19):
in our lives. But I also think it's remarkable that
you're able to sort of nurture that kind of storytelling,
you know, and with talent that sometimes maybe would get
lost otherwise. Um, And we know that you certainly mentored
a lot of young talent and provided vehicles for people
like Amy Schumer and Kristin Wigg and Seth Rogan. What
(11:40):
is it that you see in talent like that, you know,
in their in their own storytelling, or how to nurture
that type of vulnerability? I mean, I think that clearly
through Gary Shandon, who I worked with the Larry Sanders Show,
I learned a lot about mining your life for your art.
(12:00):
And I think as a fan of music, I always
was drawn to people who would tell stories that were
clearly from their lives. It could be James Taylor, could
be the Beatles. You love those songs that you knew
were real. I think as a kid that was very
important to me. And then I think Richard Pryor in
a way taught me, oh, you would just work it
out on stage like he just told he told the
(12:22):
stories of his life. Here's the things I've done, here's
the thing things I've done which are terrible, Here's the
mistakes I've made, Here's what I've learned. And there were
a lot of artists like that, Nirvana, just just all
these people where you thought, oh, they're not kidding, They're
really showing you the raw, real stuff. And I learned
(12:44):
with Gary that you could take your life as the
raw materials for storytelling, and they blur the line. Some
of it's totally made up, some of it is actually
very close to the truth. And a writer's room at
a TV show, everyone tells their stories. And then that
led to me. Iiding knocked Up and forty Virgin and
um for Virgin with Steve and this is forty And
(13:08):
then I started trying to mind my stuff, which is
always a combination of made up and and true things
that you're thinking about and then when I met Pete,
I mean, that was as close to the bone as
you can get. But he was as brave as anyone
I've ever met in terms of I'm willing to go
all the way Judd, There's no aspect of this that
I'm going to hold back. Most people hold back something
(13:31):
like no, I can't go that far, that's too darker,
that that will make me look weird. And Pete's like,
let's just show all of them when we come back.
Judd Apatow on how to make Hollywood a more diverse,
welcoming place for all storytellers. You're listening to a bis
(14:00):
with Katie and Bows and we're talking with Judd Apatow,
who is I'm sure you're aware a comedy powerhouse in Hollywood,
but what about the responsibility that comes with that power.
Here we are in a moment of national reckoning on race,
so we wanted to explore what leaders like Judd can
do to be the change that we want Hollywood to be.
(14:21):
And it's interesting because Judd has actually faced criticism about
the lack of diversity in his own work, So we
started there asking him where his head was at with
all of this and what he can do to better
elevate black stories. You know, yeah, it's and it's an
ever evolving thing. You know, for me, for inces with
freaks and geeks. When I went to high school, there
(14:44):
was one black person in thirteen years of high school
on Long Island where I grew up. So if I
did a high school show and I said, well, let's
make that, you can do that, and I think in
this era you would do that. But at the time,
we just wrote about what our high schools looked like
(15:04):
and that was not that uh, and maybe that was
completely wrong at the time, but you know, we came
from places that we're not diverse. Then, when I worked
with Lena Dunham on Girls, at the time, there weren't
shows with female showrunners who were the lead and the
producer and the director. And that became something that I
(15:28):
think really was a game changer for women running their shows.
That had led to shows like Fleabag and all these
other programs where women could create a show for themselves
and start it and direct it and produce it. And
then some people were like, well, that should be more diverse,
and you're like, okay, I I can see that that
we need to keep broadening it. We're all figuring out like, well,
(15:49):
what is truthful? How would you do it? And what
I feel like the solution to it is it's like
what we did with The Big Six, which is I
met Premale Ninjiohnny and Emily Gordon and they wanted to
write this story about how they met and a lot
of it was about, you know, a family of people
from Pakistan and their experience in America and how their
(16:12):
family worked. And I'll tell you, no one wants it
to make it. You know, it doesn't matter how successful
I've been, I couldn't sell that script. Uh and Emily
and Kamal had an amazing story and they're brilliant and
Kamil is an incredible actor and he's on television no One.
So we just developed it for years for free. No
(16:34):
one paid them, and then we got film Nation to
give us five million dollars to make the movie. Right,
so we get five million dollars to make the movie. Now,
my normally my movies cost about thirty million dollars. So
right there, you could say there's almost a systemic racism
in the budget, right because there's a belief that no
one will want to see a kid from Pakistan as
(16:57):
the lead in a comedy in America. So the movie
gets made. Film Nation stands behind us and gives it.
They give us the money. They're great, but none of
the studios did we show it at Sundance. It's a
big hit. They sell it for a lot of money
to Amazon, and then lions Gate distributes it, and now
you've got the corporations behind it because we've proven it's good.
(17:21):
And then it makes a ton of money, right, it
makes a ton of money, and it basically becomes an
example that the racism which makes it hard to make
this movie is all bullshit. It's completely unfair and it's
not even accurate to what the audience wants. The audience
wanted that movie. There's no reason why it should have
been a five million dollar movie. It's could have been
(17:43):
a thirty million dollar movie. And and that's how I've
learned to deal with us, which is, can I give
opportunities to diverse people to tell their stories and maybe
I could use my wisdom to help them, And you
know that seems to be the best way forward. And
the truth is, and you you always sound lame saying it.
(18:03):
I can't tell you how many projects I've tried to
make that didn't work where we couldn't get the script right.
You know, I did a pilot with Kevin Hart in
two thousand and two. I was like the first guy
to go, I think Kevin Hart's gonna be the biggest
star in the world. And it took a long time
after that for him to figure it out. But we
were on that on that train from day one. Like
he was undeclared, he's in the four ye old Virgin.
(18:25):
But I personally was never good enough to crack the
script to help Kevin make it. You know, he did
that in his own work that had nothing to do
with me. And so we try and sometimes we we
just fail. Also, I think the brilliant thing um that
you just said was about even the example of your
(18:45):
high school, right, and that if you were to write
something about your high school experience, you would write about
this big class with this one kid in it. And
that is the that is the middle of the issue, right.
It's not so much about having white people right black stories.
It's about having black people right black stories, diversifying the storytelling,
(19:07):
and so I think it's it's really quite important and
there's a responsibility of those who have the door open
to find ways to expend it so that our storytelling
can become more diverse too, because I also think it's
about systemic racism, Like why is Judd going to a
school or me for that matter, where there's like a
(19:28):
handful of black kids in the entire school. But I
think that's a reflection of, you know, so many issues
that created this de facto segregation that Judd and I
and Bows you to a certain extent too, even though
you're a little younger than we are, and well, I'm
the old one of the group. We're all about ten
years apart um. But I think it's it's a reflection
(19:52):
of what was happening in society when Judd and I
were growing up. But one thing I wanted to ask you, Judd,
to to build on something you said, why are these
network executives or these studio executives so clueless? I think
what's so interesting you said, they weren't reflecting what the
audience wanted, right, you know, so they're saying no, and
yet the audience is saying yes. So why is there
(20:15):
such a disconnect? Is it because of the people who
hold these positions of power to green light a project.
I think that there's a lot of theories that are
just wrong, and it's not it's it's about every aspect
of diversity. When we made Bridesmaids, I didn't think we
were doing anything to help women. I mean, I grew
(20:38):
up on Gilder Radner and Tody Fields and Lucille Ball.
There was never any part of me that thought that
men were funnier than women. If anything, I think that
my greatest heroes were women. So I just wanted to
make a movie with Kristin Wig. I didn't think that
this was symbolic. I didn't think it was about helping
women prove they could be you know, the deads of
(21:00):
movies or female driven comedies. I just thought christ and
Wiggs a genius. Let's make a movie with her. And
then people started saying, you know, if the movie does well,
maybe it'll help the studios realized they should make more
movies with female comedic leads. I never thought of it
as a test case, and then it turned out it
(21:21):
did very well, and it did lead to a bunch
of other movies happening for different people. But that was
a theory, like the studios were not pursuing women to
be the leads of comedies in the way they should have.
It would happen here and there, but you know, there'd
be a Goldie Hawn movie, or you know, every once
(21:44):
in a while someone would get a shot, but it
was still way less than man And so for me,
I've just tried to be more aware of it. I
like being in terrain where no one is so one
of the reasons why I do certain things just because
oh this this community isn't getting a movie. It's fun
(22:05):
to try to make a great one because it's not
something that everyone has burnt out. But I realized I
just need partners. I need to partner up with with
these people. And we have a lot of projects that
we hope get done. We're doing a gay romantic comedy
with Billy Eichner, and there hasn't been a big studio
(22:25):
romantic comedy like that. It's it's if it's been done.
It's been done maybe once or twice ever. But he's
got the big budget. He doesn't have the big sick budget.
He's got the real budget from Universal Studios. And he
wrote a hysterical script and it's and the truth is.
It's kind of sad that it's a big deal to
get it. It's very sad, but that's what we're trying
(22:47):
to do. We're trying to tell great stories and partner
up with people that we believe in, and hopefully that's
the way we can make a big difference. We're going
to take a short break, but when we come back,
Judd tells us how he thinks the pandemic will change
the movie industry, perhaps for good. You're listening to Back
(23:17):
to Biz with Katie and Bows, and as we wrap
up with Judd Apataw, we asked him about the future
of movie making and if he's going to be one
of the people dipping his toe back into filming in
the middle of a pandemic. I know I'm very scared,
and I will be among the last people to say
let's go, because I really would never want to put
(23:40):
anyone in danger. I know when when this time passes
and things are safe, everyone will run back to the
movie theaters, just like they're trying to run back to
everything now before they should. But there's going to be
a very painful pause for the industry. A lot of
movie theaters are closing, though, I mean, some people say
saying this is just accelerating a trend that we were
(24:02):
already witnessing, and and that is kind of the demise
of movie theaters, which would really make me sad. But
do you think that movie watching is going to come back?
I do. I do because people might just miss it.
They can come back bigger because people are tired of
being in their homes binging, and maybe it will make
them appreciate the experience. I think it will always be there.
(24:24):
The question is what will we make for the theater
and what will we make for home viewing. So everyone
wants to see spectacle, right, We want to see explosions
and superheroes in a movie theater. People aren't really going
to the theater to see what used to be the
mid price drama. You don't see the studios spending dollars
(24:49):
on a drama the way they used to make a
Meryl Street movie. Uh, there's less of that happening. It's
still happening, it's but it's kind of lower budgeted and
going straight to streaming a fair amount of the time.
And so I think what's going to change is what
goes in the theater. And it's hard to know, you
(25:10):
know what to make of that, because they're making some
great movies that are meant for streaming, and maybe an
independent filmmaker that used to make a movie for two
million dollars in a theater might get ten million dollars
to make it for Netflix. And so there's all sorts
of trade offs. Yeah, well, we're seeing good Lord, We're
(25:31):
seeing a lot of drama in our in our regular
lives right, not even in the theater. And clearly the
election is moving. Lord help us all Um. We just
had this great conversation with Stacy Abrams last week, who
is just so impressive. I I really admire her, um,
and I know that you share her concern about voter
suppression in this country. What initially sparked your activism around
(25:57):
this issue in particular, I, I mean generally, My acted
activism was set off by the fact that when Donald
Trump started birtherism, I was just really disgusted. I wrote
some jokes for the President for the Correspondence dinner that
made fun of Trump. Now I know that he's taken
(26:20):
some flat lately, but no one is happier, no one
is prouder to put this birth certificate matter to rest.
Than the Donaldson and that's because he can finally get
back to focusing on the issues that matter. Why did
we fake the moon landing? What really happened in Roswell?
(26:47):
And where are Biggie and Tupac. The reason why some
of those jokes are harsh was because I was so
annoyed and scared about his looming presence, and I even
said to everybody, I think we should go harder at him.
And this is a real destructive force in our country.
(27:09):
And my worst nightmares have come true about what could happen.
And I think the only way he stays in office
is through voter suppression. That's the only way he does
it is by setting up rules and working with local,
uh you know, state governments to make it harder for
(27:31):
people to vote in areas where he might not you know,
be in favor. And that is something that is going
to be handled in the courts. Obviously, I've always supported
the A C l U because they do a lot
of work fighting voter suppression. He's already saying that voting
(27:52):
by mail will be filled with fraud when there is
no fraud at all, There's no history of it. But
that's Stacy pointed out. Judd Stacy pointed out that there
is very little voter fraud and that is so misleading,
and that's what they always fall back on when it
comes to making voting more accessible to more people. Well, also,
(28:12):
I don't know if people talk about it enough. When
Donald Trump ran for president in two thousand and sixteen,
he was saying it was rigged before he won. So
this is his playbook, which is to set him itself
up to always win. Even when he loses, he says
it's unfair before it happens. They should pull out all
(28:33):
the clips of him saying this in two thousand and sixteen.
And it's happening while he's colluding with Russia. It's happening
while he's doing all sorts of things which are unethical
or illegal. So he sets himself up to have a
grievance and to get people worked up. And then he's
put in a lot of judges and he hopes that
he could say the election is unfair and then maybe
(28:53):
the Supreme Court supports some bizarre ruling that keeps him
in office, or maybe there has to be a second election.
And you know, it sounds crazy, but there are people
on that Court that are going to support anything that
he says. And luckily, but we saw what happened with Daca. Uh.
You know this week he's not winning everything at the
(29:13):
Supreme Court, but he's certainly gambling on it. With this election,
I would assume. I mean, you're in such a great position,
jud you have so much influence and power in Hollywood,
and I'm curious how you plan to use it or
what you're what you're thinking about and looking at in
terms of projects right now, in terms of you know,
(29:36):
my company, where we do a lot of development. I
feel good because we were in this mindset for a while,
you know, we we we have been looking to do
diverse projects. We've been looking to do things which are
more political. I feel like in all areas it's not
just you know, it's diversity of thought as well. There's
(29:58):
so many things that we don't talk about, and when
we do talk about it and people feel seen and
less alone, it really helps them in their lives and
inspires them in so many ways. So I hope that
that's what comes of this this time. And kindness. You know,
we need more kindness. We need to lift each other
up and take care of each other. And make out
(30:18):
our our focus that was Judd Apataw and his latest
movie is The King of Staten Island, available on demand.
That does it for this episode of Back to Biz
with Katie and Bos. And you know what's crazy, We're
nearly at the halfway mark of this series. So are
you having fun doing this? Bos? No, I'm not. This
(30:40):
is a lot of pressure. Well, you're doing a great
job and I love having you as my partner. Well,
thank you, Katie. No, I really I do love you
and I'm having a blast. And of course, I mean
we've been so inspired, and I've been so inspired by
our guests t D. Jake's opal to Matty, Mary Barros,
Stacy Abrahams. I mean, come on on, Stacy Abraham's all
(31:01):
of these goals. I mean, it's just been awesome. I know,
we've been really lucky that we've gotten so many people
to talk with us, especially during this critically important time
really in our nation's history. But we want to hear
from you, dear listeners, So let us know what you
think of our conversations and who you'd like us to
speak with on one of these podcasts. You can leave
(31:22):
a voicemail for Back to biz at eight four four
four seven nine seven eight eight three. That's eight four
four or seven nine seven eight eight three. Or you
can email us at info at Katie correct dot com.
Just put back to Biz in the subject line, and
you can also go straight to Apple Podcasts and leave
(31:45):
us review. Katie, you know what, we already have one review. Really,
Oh gosh, I hope it's nice. Pose it's it's all right,
it's good, it's good. Don't worry. In the meantime, keep
up with the show on Apple Podcasts, the I Heart Radio,
Apple wherever listen to your favorite shows, and don't forget
to follow us on social media, where you'll find clips
of our favorite moments from the interviews. Until next time.
(32:08):
I'm bozemus St John and I'm Katie Curic and this
is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows. Thanks so
much for listening, guys. Back to Biz with Katie and
Bows is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie
Currik Media. The executive producers are Katie Kurrik, bozmus St John,
and Courtney Litz. The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The
(32:29):
associate producers are Derek Clements Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto.
Editing by Derrek Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements.
Special thanks to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode,
go to Katie kirk dot com. You can also follow
Katie Kurik and bozmas st John on Twitter and Instagram.
(32:50):
For more podcasts from My Heart Radio, visit the I
Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. BA
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