August 13, 2020 • 36 mins
It’s that time of the year when students typically descend upon university campuses around the country — moving into dorm rooms, filling up stadiums, cramming into classrooms and swelling small towns to capacity. Unfortunately, that is not the college scene this year. After the coronavirus forced schools to shut down last March, those same institutions are struggling to figure out how — or if — students can safely come back this fall. On this episode of Back to Biz with Katie and Boz, co-hosts Katie Couric and Bozoma Saint John tackle this thorny issue with the presidents of their alma matters, James Ryan of the University of Virginia, a public research school in Charlottesville, and Michael Roth of Wesleyan University, a private liberal arts school in Connecticut. The presidents talk about their fall plans, how much of a financial hit their institutions will take, and how the pandemic — and this moment of racial unrest — could change the higher education system for good.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Curic and I'm Boma St. John
and this is back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
So Katie, you're back from my book writing. I'm so
glad I am thank you for giving me a break.
You held down the fort beautifully, Bows. But yes, I
had to put the pedal to the metal and really
(00:22):
focus on getting my book done. I'm still working on
the Yahoo Years, but I've made real progress, so thank
you for giving me some time to focus on that.
But I'm super jazz to be here today because this
is an episode we've been talking about for some time.
I don't know about you, Bows, but I would hate
to be an incoming college fresh right now, wouldn't you? True? True?
(00:45):
And we're not sure that we'd want to be the
university president either. The coronavirus has the nation's colleges and
universities in financial crisis, a lot of anxiety about the
upcoming fall semester for both students and parents. The next
casualty of the pandemic would be college football. Families still
face pricey tuition bills and are now rethinking their college plans.
(01:07):
It has been such a nightmare before we introduce our guests,
we should give a little preview and say we tapped
the presidents of our respective alma maters. By the way,
I graduated in seventy nine, Bows, you graduated in ninety nine.
I wasn't going to mention it, but hey, age is
just here we are and mine is unlisted. UM, so
(01:30):
why don't you introduce your special guest, Bows? Yes, Oh
my goodness. Well, I'm I'm very, very excited about this
episode because Michael Roth, who is the current president of
Western University, is joining us today and I'm super jazz
to have the new president of the University of Virginia,
Jim Ryan. Hey, thanks for having me. Well, I think
(01:54):
both of you have had such fascinating lives, and I
think I speak on behalf of a lot of people
who are involved with Wesleyan or uv A. How we
feel really lucky to have you both in academia. I
find it so interesting that you're both first generation college students. Um.
But you know, I've been thinking a lot about how
we're taught history and how history has really warped our
(02:17):
perspective on so many events. And Jim, of course, I've
been writing my own book and I've just finished writing
about the Unite the Right rally and the fact that
for so long people really didn't understand the Civil War
or the lost cause and narrative, or what Confederate statues
stood for and when they were erected and what the
(02:38):
reasoning behind them and other Confederate iconography, and gosh, you
you both are so interested in education. What what do
you think about that? I mean, do you think that
that's responsible for a lot of the intolerance and narrow
minded attitudes towards this current reckoning we're with the scene. Well,
(03:01):
I'll I'll jump in first, if Jim, if that's all right. Uh.
I think that the the reckoning is due mostly to
the persistence of racist depression, and that that oppression continues
to um survive despite what seems to be the good
(03:24):
intentions of many people who don't consider themselves racist, because
of these narratives of the past that have become part
of uh, what we believe are this are settled truths.
And I think some of the controversy we see today
around history textbooks, around the project, the kind of vehemence
(03:45):
about that, is that these is historical research, certainly not
perfect research, but it's an intervention of thoughtful intervention in
in American history that shakes up the the stories, the
histories we've been led to believe eve are foundational. And
that's what good historians do, and I think that sixty
nine project is extraordinarily worthwhile. But I think when people
(04:10):
have their founding stories shaken, sometimes they are say they
say thank you, my goodness, now I see more of
the way the world is. But most of the time
they get very angry, especially if that foundational story justified
their own position in the world. Even if it's not
that elevated, it's more elevated than the object of their
racist scorn, and so they are very can be very
(04:33):
angry to see that um that those foundational stories or myths. Question,
M Jim, what about you? What I would add to that,
I agree with that entirely. What I would add is,
I do think that a lot of the sort of
head scratching when someone um uses the term structural racism,
(04:54):
for example, is due to a lack of knowledge of history,
not just around the founding but twenty century history. I mean.
The other piece of this is that there's often this
assumption that, um, well, that happened two hundred three d
four hundred years ago. But there are so many elements
to UM modern history that if you understood them, you
(05:16):
would understand why the world looks the way it does today.
And not just not just understanding UM what happened during
the Jim Crow era and the propagation of the myth
of the Lost Cause UM, but basic things like redlining UM,
or how long it took between the time that Brown
(05:38):
versus Board of Education was decided and there were actual
efforts to integrate the schools, and then how short lived
those efforts were. Right. I mean, I I spent an
awful lot of time I taught a course on on
UM law and education, and spent an awful lot of
time on history that law students and education school students
(05:59):
just never had. I mean the number of students who
come up to me after a class and say, how
come I've never heard of redlining UM? Or how come
I've never heard of Militant versus Bradley, which was a
decision that prohibited UM bussing across school district lines, which
(06:19):
basically killed school integration in seventy four, maybe five years
after the court finally got serious about it. I mean,
it is this sense that oh, well, these, you know,
bad things happen. No, I mean this is part of
a pattern that you can see in terms of how
this country has dealt with issues of race and how
(06:42):
it's treated people of color, and a lack of that history,
I think helps explain a lack of empathy. Does that
mean is that being fixed though? You guys? I mean,
do you think that the way kids are being taught history?
I mean, bos, I don't know about you, but I
feel like, you know, I was. I went to public
(07:03):
school in northern Virginia, and I feel a lot of
the history that I learned was, you know, adhered to
a specific narrative that didn't entertain so many of these concepts.
Is that changing? You know, my daughters learned from Howard's
in UH, which is a very different way UH to
look at history. Do you find that that's spreading across
(07:26):
the country for young people, so we won't have this
deeply entrenched misunderstanding or this idea that of American exceptionalism
when it wasn't exceptional. I mean, I think it's changing
in in parts of the country and not so much
in others. I mean, the basic fact about the US
(07:46):
education system is that there isn't one there, you know,
thirteen thousand education systems, because there are that many are
a little bit more UM school districts. So in some
play says, um, yeah, there's a fuller telling of us history,
the good, the bad, and the ugly, and in other places,
(08:07):
I don't think. So what about you, Michael, Yeah, I
think that Jim is exactly right that it really depends
on where you go to school. One of the resources
are used there. But I also want to question us
against thinking this what we're learning now is like we
finally now we have the truth. This history is always
(08:30):
being revised, and I don't think UM, the historical narratives
we've been taught fully justify UM being comfortable with injustice
or a lack of empathy. I think what's really important
is that uh, young people, whether they're kith you twelve
system or in college, learn to live with the idea
(08:56):
that they can make things better UM, and that they
can learn a variety of perspectives on how things got
unacceptable now and then acquire a variety of tools to
address those things in the future. But I do worry
about sometimes is that people say, well, I believe this
kind of story and my friends and my group, my comrades,
(09:19):
my sisters and brothers. They believe this story and we'll
fight for these things, and you guys fight for those
other things and they don't. Sometimes are not encouraged to
actually listen to one another. So I think that one
of the important things to do is not to let
young people think now they have the truth, but to
let young people learn how to conduct inquiry, to listen
(09:39):
to other people, to discover what they might learn more
about what they what false which they might no longer believe,
and what other truths other people might have for them.
And that's a hard thing. I mean, people like many
people like certainty. But I think you can cultivate an
openness to ambiguity and inquiry with young people, um so
(10:01):
that they're more likely to listen to people who disagree
with them even when they get older. We're going to
take a quick break, but when we come back, a
snapshot of what going back to campus might look like.
This COVID fall that's in just a moment. You're listening
(10:26):
to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows, and today
we're talking about the future of education with the presence
of our alma Maters Michael Roth of Western University in
Connecticut and Jim Ryan from the University of Virginia, let's
get back to it. I know that you both have
you plans for what the fall will look like, but
can you tell us a little bit about, you know,
(10:48):
the tough decisions that you're making, uh, and what is
influencing those decisions? Also ahead, Michael, you can start thanks
a lot, buddy, that I'm hoping to learn a few things.
(11:08):
So it's it's it is a very challenging time. I mean,
obviously we started our planning, you know, right really once
we sent kids home in mid March like many other schools,
and it was extraordinary. Um. Ever since then, we've been
trying to figure out what are the parameters for us
to be able to bring students back safely in the fall?
(11:30):
Can we can we do that successfully? And for us,
the question was we believe in in person education. It
can be complimented by online education. You can. There are
great examples of hybrid things. I teach online. I'm teaching
right now online actually all over the world. UM, and
and so so we wanted to make sure that we
(11:51):
could reduce the risks to our students. Faculty and staff
sufficiently that that the environment would be used this phrase
safe enough. When I wrote about safe enough spaces, I
was really thinking about free speech. But now we're thinking
about not zero risk to everybody, because that there is
no place in America where you can have a zero risk,
but where we can practice harm reduction with cooperation from
(12:15):
our students, faculty and staff and UM and that we
will we will respond to the the data that we
get from the public health authorities and the government and
lust if we did not feel that we could conduct
in person classes safely, we wouldn't conduct them. UM. And
(12:36):
so what we're doing is creating environments where everyone will
be six ft apart, where everyone in public wear masks,
where there will be lots of hygiene practice, and you know,
lots of things that just their common sense, right. The
question everyone asks and they should ask, and I ask
myself this all hours of the day and night. Will
(12:57):
the students cooperate? And you know, well, we've all seen
the pictures of young people partying on the beach or
in a bar, and and we all we all know
what college students like to do what we're trying to do,
and I would imagine this is true of many schools
is to appeal not to our students desire to obey authority,
(13:17):
because there is none desired for that, but to their
spirit of community, which is incredibly powerful. Um. And we
are working with the student leaders to um create an
environment where if if Bose forgets her masks, somebody says, here,
here's a mask, put a mask on. Just like you know,
(13:38):
when I was a student at west Land, if somebody
lit up a cigarette in the classroom and no problem,
the teacher might bum one from you. Today, if someone
lit up a cigarette in the dining hall, another student
would come over and say, hey, put that out. You
know that they would intervene with one another to create
an environment that's safe. In our case, we are not
just depending on that testing everybody twice a week. UM.
(14:03):
We have taken over a hotel. So if we need
to isolate people, we can isolate them, we can get
and still have them in school. Uh. And so we're
doing all kinds of things. So when there are positive cases,
we take them out of a chain of transmission, and
so we don't have a explosion of cases. Will have
isolated cases, we hope then we can then quarantine and
(14:27):
get people back into the system UM, and all that
depends on very good testing, very good supportive isolation, and
contact tracing, and then the community spirit of the students,
faculty and staff. Jim, how it sounds to me like
UVA is kind of following a similar path as Wesleyan.
(14:49):
But you know, as I look at, UVA has sixteen thousand,
seven hundred and seventy seven undergraduate students. Wesleyan has three
thousand nine. I'm not sure if those are exactly correct umbers,
but you get the picture. So, Jim, tell us about
your plans. Yeah, we've been thinking about, well, why bring
students back? UH. And you know, our mission is as
(15:14):
a research university is to educate our students, UM conduct research,
and we have a health center and provide medical care.
All of those things are better done in person. So
we from the very beginning, meaning in March, after we
ask students to UM to return home, started thinking about, Okay,
how can we do this in a way that's reasonably
(15:35):
safe to students, faculty, staff, and the broader community. Because
Charlotte Fell sort of a classic college town UM, and
that's what we've been working on ever since. So we
have identified a number of criteria that we need to
meet in order to open. Our plan is to have
students back at the end of August UM and following
(15:56):
a lot of the same protocols that Michael is talking
about with respect to UM testing and social distancing UM,
and also involving student leaders and helping us figure out
how to create a norm around UM, our campaign around
shared norms and appealing, as Michael says, UM, both the
(16:16):
sense of community, but also to the sense that this
is not necessarily about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others
around you. That all said UM, we're also keeping a
close eye on the progression of the virus UM and
the reality is that things look worse today than they
(16:37):
did in mid June when we announced our plan. And
when we announced our plan we said, obviously all of
this is contingent on where we are at the end
of August UM, and right now, the trends nationally UM
and in Virginia and locally are not going in the
direction that we would like to see UM, so we're
(16:58):
keeping a close eye on that and again going back
to these gating criteria, and if they're not met, we're
not going to be able to invite students back. We
also have a number of criteria for what we would
do to ramp down or shut down, and one of
them is going to be around student behavior. So I
(17:18):
think we're asking all students to agree to abide by
these protocols UM, but we know there will be some
that don't comply and they will be subject to UM
disciplinary proceedings. But if it gets to the point where
there's an awful lot of non compliance, we need to
take that into account in terms of whether we can
(17:39):
actually continue with the continue with the semester, and we
need to let students know that that's actually going to
be a factor, and whether we have to ask students
to return home. We're gonna take a quick break, but
when we come back, is it time to reinvent the
entire higher education system? The university presidents answered that and
more ingestimal w you're listening to Back to Biz with
(18:09):
Katie and Bows and we're talking about the future of
higher education with UVA President Jim Ryan and Wesleyan University
President Michael Roth. You know, I had, of course the
fortunate benefit of going away to college. Right I was
in Collega Springs, Colorado, which is where home was went
to Wesleyan and Connecticut UM, and the experience of college
(18:32):
was of course about the education, but so much more
to write the community, the people I was around, the
interactions I had all over and it felt like that
all encapsulated the value right to me of what the
college experience was like. So, you know, even in light
of that, thinking about what the differences for these students
(18:56):
who are going to come back, potentially come back, maybe
not come back after things giving or you know, depending
on your plan um that zoom classes maybe don't feel
like enough if I'm not on campus, iff of not
getting all the extra things that come with what the
cost of college looks like, is it is it even
worth it? I mean we're we are talking about a
(19:18):
luxury also, right, I mean even for Michael at Wesleyan, right,
I think at this point tuition is about seventy five
seventy six thousand dollars a year with room and board,
and Jim, I think it's it's just about seventeen or
eighteen thousand, right if you're if you're in state, just
(19:39):
for tuition and for out of state we should add Jim,
it's worth yeah. Yeah, So I mean these are these
are luxury. Yeah, it's a big luxury. Um. What do
you think about that? What about the response to students
or parents who feel like, you know, the virtual version
(20:00):
perhaps doesn't match the sticker price. It's an interesting case.
In our case. You know, almost half of the students
are on significant financial aid and now the average grant
no loans or forty dollars for students. So um. So
(20:20):
you know that that the people who can't afford to
pay by the formulas that the government relies um, uh,
they don't pay. And so you know there's a significant
percentage of students who don't pay anything for room and
board or tuition. What strikes me and I must say,
I'm I'm surprised by this. I don't know if Jim
(20:41):
has the same experience. UM. We expected more students actually
just say in these conditions, I'm not coming back to campus. Um.
But in fact we have we have more students than
we expected who are who are so eager to be together,
even if they have to wear a mask, even if
(21:03):
they have to be at some distance from each other.
Um that they they they they want to be on campus.
They want to feel connected to people their age who
are studying and I think we've all had experience like this.
We would say in the abstract, I would never want
to do that. I would never do that. But when
you when your choices sitting I'm in my basement talking
(21:24):
to you. My choice is I'll see you outside. We
can talk at a distance, we can go for a walk,
we can we could have a meal at some that's
actually becomes very very precious. And the proof is our
students are voting with their feet. They really want to
come back to campus. We're seeing the same thing. Um,
it will be different, I mean, and we we've been
(21:47):
saying this over and again and now I mean it's
obvious the the fall semester is not going to look
much like a normal semester. UM. But I think students
are eager to see each other and as Michael says,
UM be in each other's company. Um, And even if
it's under different conditions, there's something incredibly powerful about that.
(22:12):
Mm hmm. How big financial hit is this going to
be for both of you? You know, um, International students
who often pay full freight are going to have problems
coming to school. I think you haven't gotten much in
federal support. Without getting too much into the weeds. Um.
(22:33):
You know, how tough is this going to be for
your respective institutions and might this be a time to
re calibrate how we think about higher education with this?
You know, so many kids drowning in student debt, and
I mean, honestly, Michael Dollars, I know you were saying
(22:54):
a lot of people are on financial aid, but it
just seems insane to me. And by the way, obviously
it's all schools. I mean, so many schools that aren't
that are private and even public universities. And you look
at the price of kindergarten these days, and these private
schools in New York City. It is insane and it
keeps going up and up and up. So I guess
(23:16):
my question is two parts. How how big a challenge
is this going to be for your solvency? And is
it time to rethink how college works? Michael go in
thirty seconds, just kidding. So so the the the the
hit on the economically is really significant, and it's you know,
(23:40):
if you have dorms, um and you and you don't
rent them out to anyone, let's say you're not opening,
that's you still have all the costs associated with having
your dorms, but you you don't have any revenue associate,
so that that that's a very significant hit. Um. We
have always been very conservative in or budgeting. Everybody is
(24:02):
in the pay freeze. At Wesleyan. I took a big
pay cut. Other people cut their salaries. You know, we're
figuring out how to preserve jobs, um, all at the
same time, UM trimming all extra budgets. Uh. Is it
time to rethinking People have been rethinking them the higher
(24:25):
education finances for a long time. The fact is is
I think Cappie Hill wants to. She was president of
Vassar and the economist of education. She said, as long
as as long as Katie comes along and says I'm
willing to spend whatever it takes for my daughter or
mine niece to get the very best education. As long
as people say that in America, and they say it
(24:46):
every day, the price will keep going up. Um. And
we can deliver at scale and online education. That's okay, um.
And but it's but people, if if you want so,
what are we giving online classes of Wesley And I'm saying,
I'm sure you right now, it's not any cheaper to
(25:07):
give it online. You're still paying the faculty, you're doing
small class, you're having intense discussions. Um uh. The introduction
of technology into higher education is famously not reduced the
cost of producing the educational experience. It's more like going
to the dentist. It's not less expensive because there's more technology,
it's just a lot better. And I think the experience
(25:28):
for our students now, the wrap around experience that our
students expect, from first rate athletics to first rate psyclotherapy.
Um great classes combined with hundreds of clubs, this kind
of full spot experience is what people are demanding to
pay for, and half of our students can't pay, so
(25:50):
we have to raise money to support their financial aid.
It is a model under great dress, but I think
it's also is a model that produces extraordinary experiences for undergraduates,
extraordinary research and great technological development. So I don't think
it's going to disappear even if it's under d risk. Right,
(26:10):
what about you, Jim, do you? I mean, I'm sure
you've been asking yourself yourself a lot of these questions
endowments or down right, and um, you know, it's a
really really challenging time. Yeah, I mean it will be
challenging for us UM financially for the reasons that Michael
pointed out. We're also facing loss of revenue in athletics
(26:38):
as well in football in particular UM. And then assuming
that the season continues, which is what the plan is now,
UM stadiums won't be UM won't be nearly full UM,
but UM, you know, will will weather that part of it.
The piece of it that I worry the most about
is the impact on our employees UM and the financial
(27:00):
hit that UM that that they might be facing. And so,
like Michael, you know, we're trying to figure out how
we can make sure UM to preserve as much job
continuity as we can. That's when there's a narrative out
there that schools are making these decisions based on finances,
and some of them may have to because it's an
existential crisis. But for us, you know, this is just
(27:22):
one of the risks that we think about, is the
risk to our employees UM if students are not are
not bad UM in terms of the cost. You know,
I think what this the whole episode is going to
cause people to do, and it's a good thing to do,
is to really UM examine whether they're getting good value
(27:42):
for the increasingly large investment that they're making. Right, So,
there are a lot of top schools like Wesleyan, UM
and uv A have generous financial aid policies. Were one
of only two public universities in the country that guarantees
to meet UM all financial needs. UM. That's an expensive model,
(28:05):
but I think for some schools UM, you know, there
will be an increasing assessment that it is actually not
worth it UM. And I think this whole episode is
going to accelerate the trend of some schools UM no
longer existing because the value proposition isn't there and the
value proposition to go back to something Vose was saying,
(28:27):
is is is beyond is the experience beyond just the classes?
Is the experience of what happens when you're on campus
with other students UM. And if that experience is not
rich enough, is not valuable enough, why not take classes online? Right?
You would be it would be more convenient and it
would be cheaper for you to do so if you
(28:49):
could live at home UM and just take classes online.
I was talking to someone who said, uh that vocational
almost the vocational type it vacation was going to be
emphasized more because on top of the pandemic, now you have,
you know, this very very tough economy that college graduates
are going into. And as a Liberal arts major myself
(29:13):
an American Studies major at u v A, I just
I wonder both of you if if you're going to
have to start teaching classes where skills will be paramount
so when people graduate they can actually really get a job.
Is that? Is that a crazy idea? Is? Do you
(29:34):
agree with that? Michael? I don't. I think the same
things were said in the Great Recession, um that schools
were going to disappear, and that liberal arts to disappear,
and that now we have micro degrees and badges, and
there's some of that, to be sure, and you know,
great proportion of the student debt is actually for schools
that claim to teach schools skills and just a preditary lenders. Um.
(29:59):
So I don't think the way to prepare students for
successful life after college is to be increasingly narrow, because
the economy is changing so rapidly that you need to
be able to continue to learn, and we have to
show students how they can use what they learn in
different kinds of settings, not just in the classroom in
real world settings. I do think that the the the
(30:21):
pressure on some schools to change their calendars because of
the pandemic. UM, it can lead to even more substantial changes. Um.
I don't think there's any reason for students to go
to school for eight semesters. I think that's just the
convention that we've had for a long time, but there's
no educational reason for it. We have post TALC justifications,
but um, the best way we found in Weston to
(30:44):
reduce the price of education is to compress it into
three years instead of four same number of courses. You
have less of that experience, but you actually pay less
uh off the top. And I think there are a
lot that would be more experiments like that, where students
may go to community college for two years and then
go to one school for one year or um. Finding
(31:06):
ways to give people this experience. It's so empowering economically
as well as culturally, but they don't perhaps need to
have that for eight semesters spread over four years. Yeah. Well,
there is so much changing in the world, and what
do you think about what students are thinking right now
about you know, the racial unrest that is happening in
(31:29):
our country. Have you heard from them, you know, both
for you and and Jim, and what are their thoughts
and how are you incorporating that into some of what
you're thinking for the future. Jam, do you want to
go first on this one? So I'm happy to start.
I've been really impressed by how engaged our students are
both at the UM sort of across the country with
(31:51):
respect to protests, but also focusing on uv A UM.
And as I was saying earlier UM about UM what
happened after the Unite the Right rally, I think you're
seeing the same thing again, which is that there's an
opportunity UM for change and students are helping drive that.
(32:13):
And so we've put together small Racial Equity Task Force
to go through the various petitions, suggestions, and demands that
have been made to UVA on behalf of mostly students
but sometimes faculty, staff and alumni over the last twenty
twenty five years UM and come forward with a set
(32:33):
of concrete and prioritize recommendations for what uv A can
do in this moment. And it does feel like an
opportunity to have a reckoning over issues of race that
have been longstanding and only sporadically attended to mm hmm.
So at Wesleyan UM, we've had similar kinds of conversations
(32:55):
to which IM just described. We also started, uh in
the late all something something called Engage, where along with
almost three other schools in the country, are trying to
stimulate participation in the electoral system. And I think our
students should be paying attention to their towns, so their regions,
(33:16):
to their states, and to the federal government. And so
it's not my business to tell them how to engage,
but it is my business to try to find ways
for them to be engaged. And then when the pandemic hit,
I thought all these plans for them going door to
door getting petition inside had all gone out the window.
But of course with the Black Lives Matter protest, clearly
(33:36):
the energy and creativity of young people to demand change
at their at their town level, at their state, at
the federal government level that this is this is a
moment that is so crucial for the United States, I believe,
and so I am trying as best I can to
facilitate their involvement because I think we are desk for
(34:00):
their energy and creativity at this moment in in the
nation's history. Jim Ryan and Michael Roth. Has been a
real pleasure talking to both of you, and I just
want to say good luck this fall. Uh, We'll be
thinking about you guys and pulling for you and hoping
that that things things aren't as hard as they've seen
(34:24):
right now and then it all works out and that
and that this sense of community will prevail. Amen. Thank you.
You've been listening to Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University
and Jim Ryan, President of the University of Virginia. And
(34:48):
that does it for this week's episode of Back to
Biz with Katie and Bows. We've talked to so many
interesting people and if you haven't been able to listen
to all of them, go on and subscribe on Apple podcast, Asked,
the I Heart Radio app or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. And as always, you can keep up
with me and Bows beyond the podcast by finding and
(35:09):
following us on our social media channels, and make sure
you subscribe to The Next Question podcast B two Until
we Meet Again. I'm Katie CURRK and I'm Bozma st.
John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive
(35:32):
producers are Katie Currik, Bozemans st John, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are
Derrek Clements, Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek
Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks
to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go
(35:53):
to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie
Kirk and bozmas St John on Twitter and Instagram. For
more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. H
Hi everyone. I'm Katie Curic and I'm Boma St. John
and this is back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
So Katie, you're back from my book writing. I'm so
glad I am thank you for giving me a break.
You held down the fort beautifully, Bows. But yes, I
had to put the pedal to the metal and really
(00:22):
focus on getting my book done. I'm still working on
the Yahoo Years, but I've made real progress, so thank
you for giving me some time to focus on that.
But I'm super jazz to be here today because this
is an episode we've been talking about for some time.
I don't know about you, Bows, but I would hate
to be an incoming college fresh right now, wouldn't you? True? True?
(00:45):
And we're not sure that we'd want to be the
university president either. The coronavirus has the nation's colleges and
universities in financial crisis, a lot of anxiety about the
upcoming fall semester for both students and parents. The next
casualty of the pandemic would be college football. Families still
face pricey tuition bills and are now rethinking their college plans.
(01:07):
It has been such a nightmare before we introduce our guests,
we should give a little preview and say we tapped
the presidents of our respective alma maters. By the way,
I graduated in seventy nine, Bows, you graduated in ninety nine.
I wasn't going to mention it, but hey, age is
just here we are and mine is unlisted. UM, so
(01:30):
why don't you introduce your special guest, Bows? Yes, Oh
my goodness. Well, I'm I'm very, very excited about this
episode because Michael Roth, who is the current president of
Western University, is joining us today and I'm super jazz
to have the new president of the University of Virginia,
Jim Ryan. Hey, thanks for having me. Well, I think
(01:54):
both of you have had such fascinating lives, and I
think I speak on behalf of a lot of people
who are involved with Wesleyan or uv A. How we
feel really lucky to have you both in academia. I
find it so interesting that you're both first generation college students. Um.
But you know, I've been thinking a lot about how
we're taught history and how history has really warped our
(02:17):
perspective on so many events. And Jim, of course, I've
been writing my own book and I've just finished writing
about the Unite the Right rally and the fact that
for so long people really didn't understand the Civil War
or the lost cause and narrative, or what Confederate statues
stood for and when they were erected and what the
(02:38):
reasoning behind them and other Confederate iconography, and gosh, you
you both are so interested in education. What what do
you think about that? I mean, do you think that
that's responsible for a lot of the intolerance and narrow
minded attitudes towards this current reckoning we're with the scene. Well,
(03:01):
I'll I'll jump in first, if Jim, if that's all right. Uh.
I think that the the reckoning is due mostly to
the persistence of racist depression, and that that oppression continues
to um survive despite what seems to be the good
(03:24):
intentions of many people who don't consider themselves racist, because
of these narratives of the past that have become part
of uh, what we believe are this are settled truths.
And I think some of the controversy we see today
around history textbooks, around the project, the kind of vehemence
(03:45):
about that, is that these is historical research, certainly not
perfect research, but it's an intervention of thoughtful intervention in
in American history that shakes up the the stories, the
histories we've been led to believe eve are foundational. And
that's what good historians do, and I think that sixty
nine project is extraordinarily worthwhile. But I think when people
(04:10):
have their founding stories shaken, sometimes they are say they
say thank you, my goodness, now I see more of
the way the world is. But most of the time
they get very angry, especially if that foundational story justified
their own position in the world. Even if it's not
that elevated, it's more elevated than the object of their
racist scorn, and so they are very can be very
(04:33):
angry to see that um that those foundational stories or myths. Question,
M Jim, what about you? What I would add to that,
I agree with that entirely. What I would add is,
I do think that a lot of the sort of
head scratching when someone um uses the term structural racism,
(04:54):
for example, is due to a lack of knowledge of history,
not just around the founding but twenty century history. I mean.
The other piece of this is that there's often this
assumption that, um, well, that happened two hundred three d
four hundred years ago. But there are so many elements
to UM modern history that if you understood them, you
(05:16):
would understand why the world looks the way it does today.
And not just not just understanding UM what happened during
the Jim Crow era and the propagation of the myth
of the Lost Cause UM, but basic things like redlining UM,
or how long it took between the time that Brown
(05:38):
versus Board of Education was decided and there were actual
efforts to integrate the schools, and then how short lived
those efforts were. Right. I mean, I I spent an
awful lot of time I taught a course on on
UM law and education, and spent an awful lot of
time on history that law students and education school students
(05:59):
just never had. I mean the number of students who
come up to me after a class and say, how
come I've never heard of redlining UM? Or how come
I've never heard of Militant versus Bradley, which was a
decision that prohibited UM bussing across school district lines, which
(06:19):
basically killed school integration in seventy four, maybe five years
after the court finally got serious about it. I mean,
it is this sense that oh, well, these, you know,
bad things happen. No, I mean this is part of
a pattern that you can see in terms of how
this country has dealt with issues of race and how
(06:42):
it's treated people of color, and a lack of that history,
I think helps explain a lack of empathy. Does that
mean is that being fixed though? You guys? I mean,
do you think that the way kids are being taught history?
I mean, bos, I don't know about you, but I
feel like, you know, I was. I went to public
(07:03):
school in northern Virginia, and I feel a lot of
the history that I learned was, you know, adhered to
a specific narrative that didn't entertain so many of these concepts.
Is that changing? You know, my daughters learned from Howard's
in UH, which is a very different way UH to
look at history. Do you find that that's spreading across
(07:26):
the country for young people, so we won't have this
deeply entrenched misunderstanding or this idea that of American exceptionalism
when it wasn't exceptional. I mean, I think it's changing
in in parts of the country and not so much
in others. I mean, the basic fact about the US
(07:46):
education system is that there isn't one there, you know,
thirteen thousand education systems, because there are that many are
a little bit more UM school districts. So in some
play says, um, yeah, there's a fuller telling of us history,
the good, the bad, and the ugly, and in other places,
(08:07):
I don't think. So what about you, Michael, Yeah, I
think that Jim is exactly right that it really depends
on where you go to school. One of the resources
are used there. But I also want to question us
against thinking this what we're learning now is like we
finally now we have the truth. This history is always
(08:30):
being revised, and I don't think UM, the historical narratives
we've been taught fully justify UM being comfortable with injustice
or a lack of empathy. I think what's really important
is that uh, young people, whether they're kith you twelve
system or in college, learn to live with the idea
(08:56):
that they can make things better UM, and that they
can learn a variety of perspectives on how things got
unacceptable now and then acquire a variety of tools to
address those things in the future. But I do worry
about sometimes is that people say, well, I believe this
kind of story and my friends and my group, my comrades,
(09:19):
my sisters and brothers. They believe this story and we'll
fight for these things, and you guys fight for those
other things and they don't. Sometimes are not encouraged to
actually listen to one another. So I think that one
of the important things to do is not to let
young people think now they have the truth, but to
let young people learn how to conduct inquiry, to listen
(09:39):
to other people, to discover what they might learn more
about what they what false which they might no longer believe,
and what other truths other people might have for them.
And that's a hard thing. I mean, people like many
people like certainty. But I think you can cultivate an
openness to ambiguity and inquiry with young people, um so
(10:01):
that they're more likely to listen to people who disagree
with them even when they get older. We're going to
take a quick break, but when we come back, a
snapshot of what going back to campus might look like.
This COVID fall that's in just a moment. You're listening
(10:26):
to Back to Biz with Katie and Bows, and today
we're talking about the future of education with the presence
of our alma Maters Michael Roth of Western University in
Connecticut and Jim Ryan from the University of Virginia, let's
get back to it. I know that you both have
you plans for what the fall will look like, but
can you tell us a little bit about, you know,
(10:48):
the tough decisions that you're making, uh, and what is
influencing those decisions? Also ahead, Michael, you can start thanks
a lot, buddy, that I'm hoping to learn a few things.
(11:08):
So it's it's it is a very challenging time. I mean,
obviously we started our planning, you know, right really once
we sent kids home in mid March like many other schools,
and it was extraordinary. Um. Ever since then, we've been
trying to figure out what are the parameters for us
to be able to bring students back safely in the fall?
(11:30):
Can we can we do that successfully? And for us,
the question was we believe in in person education. It
can be complimented by online education. You can. There are
great examples of hybrid things. I teach online. I'm teaching
right now online actually all over the world. UM, and
and so so we wanted to make sure that we
(11:51):
could reduce the risks to our students. Faculty and staff
sufficiently that that the environment would be used this phrase
safe enough. When I wrote about safe enough spaces, I
was really thinking about free speech. But now we're thinking
about not zero risk to everybody, because that there is
no place in America where you can have a zero risk,
but where we can practice harm reduction with cooperation from
(12:15):
our students, faculty and staff and UM and that we
will we will respond to the the data that we
get from the public health authorities and the government and
lust if we did not feel that we could conduct
in person classes safely, we wouldn't conduct them. UM. And
(12:36):
so what we're doing is creating environments where everyone will
be six ft apart, where everyone in public wear masks,
where there will be lots of hygiene practice, and you know,
lots of things that just their common sense, right. The
question everyone asks and they should ask, and I ask
myself this all hours of the day and night. Will
(12:57):
the students cooperate? And you know, well, we've all seen
the pictures of young people partying on the beach or
in a bar, and and we all we all know
what college students like to do what we're trying to do,
and I would imagine this is true of many schools
is to appeal not to our students desire to obey authority,
(13:17):
because there is none desired for that, but to their
spirit of community, which is incredibly powerful. Um. And we
are working with the student leaders to um create an
environment where if if Bose forgets her masks, somebody says, here,
here's a mask, put a mask on. Just like you know,
(13:38):
when I was a student at west Land, if somebody
lit up a cigarette in the classroom and no problem,
the teacher might bum one from you. Today, if someone
lit up a cigarette in the dining hall, another student
would come over and say, hey, put that out. You
know that they would intervene with one another to create
an environment that's safe. In our case, we are not
just depending on that testing everybody twice a week. UM.
(14:03):
We have taken over a hotel. So if we need
to isolate people, we can isolate them, we can get
and still have them in school. Uh. And so we're
doing all kinds of things. So when there are positive cases,
we take them out of a chain of transmission, and
so we don't have a explosion of cases. Will have
isolated cases, we hope then we can then quarantine and
(14:27):
get people back into the system UM, and all that
depends on very good testing, very good supportive isolation, and
contact tracing, and then the community spirit of the students,
faculty and staff. Jim, how it sounds to me like
UVA is kind of following a similar path as Wesleyan.
(14:49):
But you know, as I look at, UVA has sixteen thousand,
seven hundred and seventy seven undergraduate students. Wesleyan has three
thousand nine. I'm not sure if those are exactly correct umbers,
but you get the picture. So, Jim, tell us about
your plans. Yeah, we've been thinking about, well, why bring
students back? UH. And you know, our mission is as
(15:14):
a research university is to educate our students, UM conduct research,
and we have a health center and provide medical care.
All of those things are better done in person. So
we from the very beginning, meaning in March, after we
ask students to UM to return home, started thinking about, Okay,
how can we do this in a way that's reasonably
(15:35):
safe to students, faculty, staff, and the broader community. Because
Charlotte Fell sort of a classic college town UM, and
that's what we've been working on ever since. So we
have identified a number of criteria that we need to
meet in order to open. Our plan is to have
students back at the end of August UM and following
(15:56):
a lot of the same protocols that Michael is talking
about with respect to UM testing and social distancing UM,
and also involving student leaders and helping us figure out
how to create a norm around UM, our campaign around
shared norms and appealing, as Michael says, UM, both the
(16:16):
sense of community, but also to the sense that this
is not necessarily about protecting yourself, it's about protecting others
around you. That all said UM, we're also keeping a
close eye on the progression of the virus UM and
the reality is that things look worse today than they
(16:37):
did in mid June when we announced our plan. And
when we announced our plan we said, obviously all of
this is contingent on where we are at the end
of August UM, and right now, the trends nationally UM
and in Virginia and locally are not going in the
direction that we would like to see UM, so we're
(16:58):
keeping a close eye on that and again going back
to these gating criteria, and if they're not met, we're
not going to be able to invite students back. We
also have a number of criteria for what we would
do to ramp down or shut down, and one of
them is going to be around student behavior. So I
(17:18):
think we're asking all students to agree to abide by
these protocols UM, but we know there will be some
that don't comply and they will be subject to UM
disciplinary proceedings. But if it gets to the point where
there's an awful lot of non compliance, we need to
take that into account in terms of whether we can
(17:39):
actually continue with the continue with the semester, and we
need to let students know that that's actually going to
be a factor, and whether we have to ask students
to return home. We're gonna take a quick break, but
when we come back, is it time to reinvent the
entire higher education system? The university presidents answered that and
more ingestimal w you're listening to Back to Biz with
(18:09):
Katie and Bows and we're talking about the future of
higher education with UVA President Jim Ryan and Wesleyan University
President Michael Roth. You know, I had, of course the
fortunate benefit of going away to college. Right I was
in Collega Springs, Colorado, which is where home was went
to Wesleyan and Connecticut UM, and the experience of college
(18:32):
was of course about the education, but so much more
to write the community, the people I was around, the
interactions I had all over and it felt like that
all encapsulated the value right to me of what the
college experience was like. So, you know, even in light
of that, thinking about what the differences for these students
(18:56):
who are going to come back, potentially come back, maybe
not come back after things giving or you know, depending
on your plan um that zoom classes maybe don't feel
like enough if I'm not on campus, iff of not
getting all the extra things that come with what the
cost of college looks like, is it is it even
worth it? I mean we're we are talking about a
(19:18):
luxury also, right, I mean even for Michael at Wesleyan, right,
I think at this point tuition is about seventy five
seventy six thousand dollars a year with room and board,
and Jim, I think it's it's just about seventeen or
eighteen thousand, right if you're if you're in state, just
(19:39):
for tuition and for out of state we should add Jim,
it's worth yeah. Yeah, So I mean these are these
are luxury. Yeah, it's a big luxury. Um. What do
you think about that? What about the response to students
or parents who feel like, you know, the virtual version
(20:00):
perhaps doesn't match the sticker price. It's an interesting case.
In our case. You know, almost half of the students
are on significant financial aid and now the average grant
no loans or forty dollars for students. So um. So
(20:20):
you know that that the people who can't afford to
pay by the formulas that the government relies um, uh,
they don't pay. And so you know there's a significant
percentage of students who don't pay anything for room and
board or tuition. What strikes me and I must say,
I'm I'm surprised by this. I don't know if Jim
(20:41):
has the same experience. UM. We expected more students actually
just say in these conditions, I'm not coming back to campus. Um.
But in fact we have we have more students than
we expected who are who are so eager to be together,
even if they have to wear a mask, even if
(21:03):
they have to be at some distance from each other.
Um that they they they they want to be on campus.
They want to feel connected to people their age who
are studying and I think we've all had experience like this.
We would say in the abstract, I would never want
to do that. I would never do that. But when
you when your choices sitting I'm in my basement talking
(21:24):
to you. My choice is I'll see you outside. We
can talk at a distance, we can go for a walk,
we can we could have a meal at some that's
actually becomes very very precious. And the proof is our
students are voting with their feet. They really want to
come back to campus. We're seeing the same thing. Um,
it will be different, I mean, and we we've been
(21:47):
saying this over and again and now I mean it's
obvious the the fall semester is not going to look
much like a normal semester. UM. But I think students
are eager to see each other and as Michael says,
UM be in each other's company. Um, And even if
it's under different conditions, there's something incredibly powerful about that.
(22:12):
Mm hmm. How big financial hit is this going to
be for both of you? You know, um, International students
who often pay full freight are going to have problems
coming to school. I think you haven't gotten much in
federal support. Without getting too much into the weeds. Um.
(22:33):
You know, how tough is this going to be for
your respective institutions and might this be a time to
re calibrate how we think about higher education with this?
You know, so many kids drowning in student debt, and
I mean, honestly, Michael Dollars, I know you were saying
(22:54):
a lot of people are on financial aid, but it
just seems insane to me. And by the way, obviously
it's all schools. I mean, so many schools that aren't
that are private and even public universities. And you look
at the price of kindergarten these days, and these private
schools in New York City. It is insane and it
keeps going up and up and up. So I guess
(23:16):
my question is two parts. How how big a challenge
is this going to be for your solvency? And is
it time to rethink how college works? Michael go in
thirty seconds, just kidding. So so the the the the
hit on the economically is really significant, and it's you know,
(23:40):
if you have dorms, um and you and you don't
rent them out to anyone, let's say you're not opening,
that's you still have all the costs associated with having
your dorms, but you you don't have any revenue associate,
so that that that's a very significant hit. Um. We
have always been very conservative in or budgeting. Everybody is
(24:02):
in the pay freeze. At Wesleyan. I took a big
pay cut. Other people cut their salaries. You know, we're
figuring out how to preserve jobs, um, all at the
same time, UM trimming all extra budgets. Uh. Is it
time to rethinking People have been rethinking them the higher
(24:25):
education finances for a long time. The fact is is
I think Cappie Hill wants to. She was president of
Vassar and the economist of education. She said, as long
as as long as Katie comes along and says I'm
willing to spend whatever it takes for my daughter or
mine niece to get the very best education. As long
as people say that in America, and they say it
(24:46):
every day, the price will keep going up. Um. And
we can deliver at scale and online education. That's okay, um.
And but it's but people, if if you want so,
what are we giving online classes of Wesley And I'm saying,
I'm sure you right now, it's not any cheaper to
(25:07):
give it online. You're still paying the faculty, you're doing
small class, you're having intense discussions. Um uh. The introduction
of technology into higher education is famously not reduced the
cost of producing the educational experience. It's more like going
to the dentist. It's not less expensive because there's more technology,
it's just a lot better. And I think the experience
(25:28):
for our students now, the wrap around experience that our
students expect, from first rate athletics to first rate psyclotherapy.
Um great classes combined with hundreds of clubs, this kind
of full spot experience is what people are demanding to
pay for, and half of our students can't pay, so
(25:50):
we have to raise money to support their financial aid.
It is a model under great dress, but I think
it's also is a model that produces extraordinary experiences for undergraduates,
extraordinary research and great technological development. So I don't think
it's going to disappear even if it's under d risk. Right,
(26:10):
what about you, Jim, do you? I mean, I'm sure
you've been asking yourself yourself a lot of these questions
endowments or down right, and um, you know, it's a
really really challenging time. Yeah, I mean it will be
challenging for us UM financially for the reasons that Michael
pointed out. We're also facing loss of revenue in athletics
(26:38):
as well in football in particular UM. And then assuming
that the season continues, which is what the plan is now,
UM stadiums won't be UM won't be nearly full UM,
but UM, you know, will will weather that part of it.
The piece of it that I worry the most about
is the impact on our employees UM and the financial
(27:00):
hit that UM that that they might be facing. And so,
like Michael, you know, we're trying to figure out how
we can make sure UM to preserve as much job
continuity as we can. That's when there's a narrative out
there that schools are making these decisions based on finances,
and some of them may have to because it's an
existential crisis. But for us, you know, this is just
(27:22):
one of the risks that we think about, is the
risk to our employees UM if students are not are
not bad UM in terms of the cost. You know,
I think what this the whole episode is going to
cause people to do, and it's a good thing to do,
is to really UM examine whether they're getting good value
(27:42):
for the increasingly large investment that they're making. Right, So,
there are a lot of top schools like Wesleyan, UM
and uv A have generous financial aid policies. Were one
of only two public universities in the country that guarantees
to meet UM all financial needs. UM. That's an expensive model,
(28:05):
but I think for some schools UM, you know, there
will be an increasing assessment that it is actually not
worth it UM. And I think this whole episode is
going to accelerate the trend of some schools UM no
longer existing because the value proposition isn't there and the
value proposition to go back to something Vose was saying,
(28:27):
is is is beyond is the experience beyond just the classes?
Is the experience of what happens when you're on campus
with other students UM. And if that experience is not
rich enough, is not valuable enough, why not take classes online? Right?
You would be it would be more convenient and it
would be cheaper for you to do so if you
(28:49):
could live at home UM and just take classes online.
I was talking to someone who said, uh that vocational
almost the vocational type it vacation was going to be
emphasized more because on top of the pandemic, now you have,
you know, this very very tough economy that college graduates
are going into. And as a Liberal arts major myself
(29:13):
an American Studies major at u v A, I just
I wonder both of you if if you're going to
have to start teaching classes where skills will be paramount
so when people graduate they can actually really get a job.
Is that? Is that a crazy idea? Is? Do you
(29:34):
agree with that? Michael? I don't. I think the same
things were said in the Great Recession, um that schools
were going to disappear, and that liberal arts to disappear,
and that now we have micro degrees and badges, and
there's some of that, to be sure, and you know,
great proportion of the student debt is actually for schools
that claim to teach schools skills and just a preditary lenders. Um.
(29:59):
So I don't think the way to prepare students for
successful life after college is to be increasingly narrow, because
the economy is changing so rapidly that you need to
be able to continue to learn, and we have to
show students how they can use what they learn in
different kinds of settings, not just in the classroom in
real world settings. I do think that the the the
(30:21):
pressure on some schools to change their calendars because of
the pandemic. UM, it can lead to even more substantial changes. Um.
I don't think there's any reason for students to go
to school for eight semesters. I think that's just the
convention that we've had for a long time, but there's
no educational reason for it. We have post TALC justifications,
but um, the best way we found in Weston to
(30:44):
reduce the price of education is to compress it into
three years instead of four same number of courses. You
have less of that experience, but you actually pay less
uh off the top. And I think there are a
lot that would be more experiments like that, where students
may go to community college for two years and then
go to one school for one year or um. Finding
(31:06):
ways to give people this experience. It's so empowering economically
as well as culturally, but they don't perhaps need to
have that for eight semesters spread over four years. Yeah. Well,
there is so much changing in the world, and what
do you think about what students are thinking right now
about you know, the racial unrest that is happening in
(31:29):
our country. Have you heard from them, you know, both
for you and and Jim, and what are their thoughts
and how are you incorporating that into some of what
you're thinking for the future. Jam, do you want to
go first on this one? So I'm happy to start.
I've been really impressed by how engaged our students are
both at the UM sort of across the country with
(31:51):
respect to protests, but also focusing on uv A UM.
And as I was saying earlier UM about UM what
happened after the Unite the Right rally, I think you're
seeing the same thing again, which is that there's an
opportunity UM for change and students are helping drive that.
(32:13):
And so we've put together small Racial Equity Task Force
to go through the various petitions, suggestions, and demands that
have been made to UVA on behalf of mostly students
but sometimes faculty, staff and alumni over the last twenty
twenty five years UM and come forward with a set
(32:33):
of concrete and prioritize recommendations for what uv A can
do in this moment. And it does feel like an
opportunity to have a reckoning over issues of race that
have been longstanding and only sporadically attended to mm hmm.
So at Wesleyan UM, we've had similar kinds of conversations
(32:55):
to which IM just described. We also started, uh in
the late all something something called Engage, where along with
almost three other schools in the country, are trying to
stimulate participation in the electoral system. And I think our
students should be paying attention to their towns, so their regions,
(33:16):
to their states, and to the federal government. And so
it's not my business to tell them how to engage,
but it is my business to try to find ways
for them to be engaged. And then when the pandemic hit,
I thought all these plans for them going door to
door getting petition inside had all gone out the window.
But of course with the Black Lives Matter protest, clearly
(33:36):
the energy and creativity of young people to demand change
at their at their town level, at their state, at
the federal government level that this is this is a
moment that is so crucial for the United States, I believe,
and so I am trying as best I can to
facilitate their involvement because I think we are desk for
(34:00):
their energy and creativity at this moment in in the
nation's history. Jim Ryan and Michael Roth. Has been a
real pleasure talking to both of you, and I just
want to say good luck this fall. Uh, We'll be
thinking about you guys and pulling for you and hoping
that that things things aren't as hard as they've seen
(34:24):
right now and then it all works out and that
and that this sense of community will prevail. Amen. Thank you.
You've been listening to Michael Roth, president of Wesleyan University
and Jim Ryan, President of the University of Virginia. And
(34:48):
that does it for this week's episode of Back to
Biz with Katie and Bows. We've talked to so many
interesting people and if you haven't been able to listen
to all of them, go on and subscribe on Apple podcast, Asked,
the I Heart Radio app or wherever you listen to
your favorite shows. And as always, you can keep up
with me and Bows beyond the podcast by finding and
(35:09):
following us on our social media channels, and make sure
you subscribe to The Next Question podcast B two Until
we Meet Again. I'm Katie CURRK and I'm Bozma st.
John and this is Back to Biz with Katie and Bows.
Back to Biz with Katie and Bows is a production
of I Heart Radio and Katie Currik Media. The executive
(35:32):
producers are Katie Currik, Bozemans st John, and Courtney Litz.
The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. The associate producers are
Derrek Clements, Eliza Costas and Emily Pinto. Editing by Derrek
Clements and Lauren Hansen, Mixing by Derrek Clements. Special thanks
to Adriana Fasio. For more information about today's episode, go
(35:53):
to Katie Kirk dot com. You can also follow Katie
Kirk and bozmas St John on Twitter and Instagram. For
more podcasts for My heart Radio, visit the I Heart
Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to your
favorite shows. H
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