March 18, 2024 • 29 mins
Welcome back to the Midlands where we're returning to Harvington Hall, famous for having the most priest holes in England and filling us in on those holes, is a man who spent a lot of time in them programs, Manager Pill Downing. Last time we heard about evil priest hunter and priest torturer Richard Topcliffe, but there's one very important person we yet to talk about: Nicholas Owen aka The Elusvie Illusionist
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome back to bad Manners and welcome back to the
Midlands where we're returning to Harvington Hall, famous for having
the most priest holes in England and filling us in
on those holes, is a man who spent a lot
of time in them programs, Manager Pill Downing. Last time
we heard about evil priest hunter and priest torturer Richard Topliff,
(00:21):
swinging beam priest hides, buckets of the piers and apples.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
But there's one very important person we yet to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We can't really talk about Harvington Hall without mentioning Nicholas Owen.
He's sort of integraled to the priest holes. He was
the carpenter, is that right? He yeah, built them.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Correct, So he is the master carpenter. He is the
guy that was traveling around, particularly the Midlands, installing these
ingenious priest hides. This guy's brain works in three D,
so he could literally go into a building and just
sort of knock down walls in his mind and think, well,
I'll just change is that, I'll just move that there.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
And he's that clever.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
They used to actually take stonemasons and brick layers to
houses to search them to see where they've been tampered with.
Now Nicholas owns that ingenius. He could just disguise everything.
So he is literally the master of illusions, like this
guy is was absolutely incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Didn't that become his title?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Now I've heard that he's the patron saint of illusionists
and escapologists.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I mean that is very so.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
But he all his designs are different, so he wouldn't
do the same design twice because of course if you
put let's say the swinging beam hide, which we attributed
to him, if he's done that here and they find it,
they'll go to every single house and start pushing on
every single wooden beam. She can't replicate the same trick.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, so you're gonna keep on just coming out of different ideas.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
He did eventually get captured at one point, didn't He
went to my house? Mild House it is of London.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah, he was a resident.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
How how did he get caught? What happened to him?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So he was caught actually ten miles away from here,
a place called Hindletpaul. Now that house there was searched
for twelve days, which is the longest search ever corded.
Just after the Gunpowder plot, now that house no longer exists,
but the ironic thing is in its place is now
the West Mercier Police headquarters. So he was captured there
after four days of hiding. So he had an apple
(02:12):
between him and one of the one of the guy
called Ralph Ashley.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
And it's great.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
No, I just love the apples keep on making a
occurring appearance.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's a simple, It is a simple.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No bananas in this precess that would would they even
have bananas and oranges?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Orange oranges, but but no apples. But sorry about bananas atual.
I don't know when bananas came in, but there we go.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That is a that is a question for another podcast.
When did bananas come to England?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
BA expert?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But yes, so he was captured.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So basically he was captured on the fourth day of
a twelve day search, recognized instantly, probably because he was
only said to be a short man. His alias was
Little John, so he was going so apparently it was
only like five foot so he was only a small guy.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And this is probably wrong, but I need to ask it.
Little John no connection in Robin Hood, that's not right.
But his stories might have been mixed up or anything
like that.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, I mean I've always thought that though I've often
thought that. But he documented at the time as little John.
He had a limp because he fell off his horse
and broke his leg, and he had a hernia of
all things, so quite quite distinctive chap. So I took
him down to the Tower London put him under torture.
And there's a couple of different stories. So the one
at the Tower of London, which I'm sure you might
remember it, but where the where the rack is Dann
(03:27):
the little Dungeon bit. Yes, there's a bit of writing there.
There's there's actually an image of a guy held up
by the manacles, which is said to be Nicolas owing,
and it says that he the jailers said that he
stabbed himself to death. The story is actually what happened
was they put a metal plate over the hernia to
stop it popping out, and what it actually it was
exploded and it killed him. So he died under torture.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And so he then exploded, which excluded in him.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It would have poisoned him, would have been a I'm
sure it's sept a seema or something would have Kington
at that point, that.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Is a yeah, that's a horrible way to go. Yeah,
did he not escape at one? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So ye before that, so a few years before he
was captured and he basically yeah, I don't think he
was arrested because they didn't know who he was. So
he had been he had been captured before, but they
knew he was at this point. So Robert Cecil was
very happy when they captured I can't remember the exact quote,
but basically very happy that they had captured Nicholas home.
(04:24):
But he also praised him for how amazing his work was.
But they were joyous that they captured him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow, what a guy Nicholas.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Also, we think he was the mastermind behind helping John
Gerard escape the tower as well.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean that's the theory I've heard. Whether I
believe it or not, I'm not sure. But yeah, he's
supposedly the guy that masterminded the escape, which is which
as you know, I'm sure you know that very few
people ever escaped the Tower of London, but John Gerrard did.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, there are only a few cross dressers he's escaped
at some point. So know, I think that's that's a
that's a trick of getting out of the Tower Ross
thing that was pretty pretty famous.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
But tell the story of John John.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
So basically, he was a Jesuit priest during the reign
of Elizabeth First, and he's he's like a priest with
nine lives. I mean, he literally was dodging the authorities.
He'd hidden many priest hides. Two of them that definitely
know were Nicholas Owen priest hides that he hid in
and and and escaped.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I love the idea that Nicholas Owen, this isn't just
any priestide, this is a Nicholas Owen priest side exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Mark and Spencer, I wasn't sure if you can mention,
just like, so you.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Want your hide to be luxurious, less dusty, with more
apples than the usual hide, then get Nicholas Owen hyde.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, something like that. So so yeah, so John Jard
hid Nicholas difference and so what happened was so basically
John Yard escaped this house called Braddock's, and three weeks
later he was captured with Nicholas Owen and they recognized
John Gerrard's disclaimer it.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Will not always work. Sometimes you'll get captured.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
But he wasn't in the height at that point. So
let him of if he was in the bedroom at
that point, and he basically yes. So they captured John Jard,
they recognized who he was. They threw him into into prison.
Then he went into the tower, London, and then he
escapes the tower.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And how does he escape?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
So he wrote a letter in orange juice. Now orange
juice is secret ink, so it dries clear. So so
basically befriended the jailer in the in the tower London,
and he said, look, can I get some oranges? And
the guy will a bit odd, but yeah, we'll get
some oranges. And he was making rosaries out of the
peel of the of the the orange, sending it to
his friends. On the outside, clearly wrapped in paper, just
(06:47):
looks like a blank piece of paper. Friends knew what
it was. Hold it up to a candlelight and of
course all the words then appear on the page, come
and rescue me from the tower.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Because you can just see through the light that it's which.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Sort of yeah, it's just the ink just appears. So
quite a cool trick.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Actually, oh the hell did they find that out?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
It's the same with lemon du so it's it's a
citrus thing is it say to do it with lemons
as well?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Genius, very clever, very clever.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So yeah, that happened, and then fruit are saving the
day left right in the center in this story.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Never thought of it like that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
A lot of fruit, A lot of fruit, A lot
of fruit.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
No, no banas.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
But but yeah it worked, and yeah he escaped and
of course he'd been also hung up by the manacles
by Richard Topliffe, the priest huner. Yeah, so he had
to get across the moat, didn't he. Yeah, so that
of course the rope sort of like on a forty
five degree angle, and he's managed to kind of just
climb down becau siddeny. His wrists have been mangled by
being hung up by the manacles. Yeah, so God helped
(07:42):
him on that day.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So I do.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Feel like you hear this, A lot of priests are
doing some pretty physically demanding stuff. I do think God
has to be a bit with him at some point,
give them that strength.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
But I think a lot of people expect Friar Tuck
as well. When you mentioned the priest, you imagine this
big guy, but actually they're young guys like us, and
just that that they're relative be fit.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
So yeah, okay priests, Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Very kind of filled.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Call me young, and I didn't even have to pay
him much. By the way, Action Priests will be in
a cinema this Christmas near you time now for a tour.
(08:25):
It's all well and good hearing about these genius priest hides,
but I wanted to see them for myself, so Phil
took me up his passage.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
To have a look at his holes.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
If you come this way, I'm not going to guess
there's no possible way.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
There's no way.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
If you look above our heads here, you see that
beam running across the top, and you know under the CEI.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
I can see that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It's a bit of steel that's holding my house up.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
But that being there suggests that the room actually was
up to here and then was not backwards to make
room for a hiding place. Because if you look above
that this porch area, can see some more painting up there.
It's a bit of plastered wall painting. Now that war painting.
You wouldn't have gone to all that trouble painting your
wars and then put paneling over the top of it.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
So that painting there is dead.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
In line with a mermaid wall painting in the in
the corridor through there.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
In the mermaid passage, in the Mermaid passage.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yes, I've always wanted to be in a Mermaid's passage.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Now, if you have a look above that door, can
you see a twotail Mermaid's be like the Starbucks coffee
I can, Yes, there she is now she as I said,
it is dead in line with the painting in this room.
So this was once a corridor and all the walls
were knocked back. So Nicholas O and the priest't makers
knocked the walls backwards through here to make room for
a priest tide.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Right, and where is it? Well?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Firstly, now this is where the house becomes confusing when
you get enter here.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So yeah, the entire floor is just sloped the wrong way. Yeah,
this has gone madness.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So where are you in relation to downstairs?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Now?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Are we above the kitchen? I'm not long, I'm lost.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, this is the whole purpose of it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So notice now the floor height changes just over there,
the floor height changes next to you where you're standing
there and behind you is a spiral staircase.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And also to the left of me is a corridor.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So the whole idea now is to confuse you. This
is the illusion part of it. This is an illusion
out here. One thing that you will notice if we
go to the back of the house at some point,
you will notice all the windows are jumbled up. They
don't you can't see how many stories the house is on.
And that's because all the floor heights change. And it's
too confusion because priest hides can be seen from the outside.
So that's why they do it.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, it definitely works. I was so confused walking around
Harvington Hall. I didn't know which way was up and
then we started walking up.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
I think we're gonna go up these We've got four
or five steps here.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, more spiral steps. This is a tiny room in now.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Now this is the smallest room of the house. People
come around and not on a guided toll. They walk
and again that's the library, don't have much of it,
and they leave the room. However, we now have the
most ingenious priest hide in this house and arguably the
second most ingenious priest hide in England. So in front
of where we're standing now we've got a ladder goes
onto like a raised platform, and that originally is the
(11:19):
book covered.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
So if you.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Imagine in front of us here we can't see it now,
but you'd have two doors in front, and then we've
got paneling still on the back wall, but there would
have been paneling on the wall on the left and
paneling on the wall on the right. Now books stacked
to the ceiling. You're standing here as a priest hunter.
That's just a book covered.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
However, if I climb into the book covered.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Oh we really are climbing in. Yeah, excellent.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So what we now see is this brick wall. You
would have un clipped the paneling off the wall and
you've just got normal kind of brick wall and a
wouldn't beam, But this beam here, if I push on
the top of it.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
No flipped up. Amazing, So that's probably they sprung into action.
I thought it was going to be a slow fader,
but it was actually.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
You've got to you've got to move pretty quick. Yeah,
you do have no time to waste. So that priest
hide in there is the one I spent thirty six
hours in.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You spent thirty six hours in that.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So eight foot long, three foot wide and five foot
high do you want to.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Go in, absolutely, but can we make a promise that
you let me out?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I don't, I don't. Thirty six hounds is a bit
too long for.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Me, so you've got to go side on to get in.
There's no way, literally a foot wide.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That I've felt fatter in my life.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
They are, Yeah, now bear in mind.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, you've got a window in there so you can
see it, but it's still quite dark even with the window.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I sat on my spoon. It's really dark.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, this window looks back out into the corridor.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
But through that window is where the little boy found
the hide, So that would have been a brick wall,
of course. And then we've put a window and so
you can have a look, so you can see how
dark it is even though there's a window. And this
beam's open, but you imagine that had been closed down.
Should I close you in?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes? Please.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Now you're going to see gaps around the around the beam,
but you have to imagine that this would be sitting flush.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I don't want to make any noise now, I feel
like I should be silently here.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
So you're actually above the corridor where we've just been
as well, so you imagine you're sitting on the floor there.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
If you move and it creaks.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
People were here underneath you, so you're hovering basically above
the corridor.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I can I'm already really aware of my breathing. I
breathe really loudly.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And you can actually hear so. James, the assistant manager,
when I saw in there. This might sound a bit creepy,
but he was actually could hear me breathing.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Through the wall.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
That is freaky.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
It's freaky. It's more creepy. Why is he listening to
me breathing through at all?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But yeah, I mean it's it's very claustrophobic in here.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And the idea of spending ten days, yeah, yeah, I
go insane.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I can I please come out now? Guys Hello.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
They didn't leave me in there for ten days, but
it was certainly longer than I had liked. Next up
on the tour was the priest's bedchamber. You know, we
hadn't known each other for that long, but Phil had
already let me climb inside one of his holes, and
now he was showing me his boudoir. I didn't even
have to buy him dinner.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
So this was a priest bedchamber at one time. And
actually if you look.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Through the door there, you'll see I don't know if
the other door on the fire ends open, but there's
three interconnecting doors or rooms, so they're all pres bedchambers.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
All the way through.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
This one's the red room.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's called the Red Room.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, a bit.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Christian gray a Catholic not Christian.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
No, Yeah, probably not the best name for the room.
But this room holds secrets as well. If I make
my way over back to the doorway. Any idea what
room is directly beneath where I'm standing?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Is it the library?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
You're not far wrong. Yeah, so this is where.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
The priest hide is. You've been in above it now, yeah,
you're literally above it.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
He really is all angles.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
He's got people walking around trying to find him.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So the whole idea is you walk around the spiral staircase,
which is there. But again it's a bit of a
way of trying to confuse you. But it's literally underneath here.
But there's something else about this room. If you're asleep
in your bed over there and you hear all the
commotion priests and is charging up the stairs, you think, well,
I need to get out of here.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
First thing, you'll be panicking.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
If you go through those two rooms that connect to
this one, you're trapped. There's nowhere out, no way to escape.
But there's an escape route in this room.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
There's a way out, is it?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I don't know where it is. This is impossible house
to figure out. I've got no idea.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Over in the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Corner of there, there's a fireplace is fake fake not
a real fireplace. There's a mirror that I thought she's
a light so off she can't but there's we'll go
up there so you can see it.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
But on that mirror wall she actually if.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
You go down your knees that they love a look up,
you'll see it. So there's an escape. The escape roots
up there the chimney. Yeah, into the attic.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
That's ingenious.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, now I know someone that has climbed up there.
I've never tried it, but there are things to hold
on to you. I've got to be really thin. It's
really small space. But notice the back wall there look
all painted.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
In black, so it looks like it's been on exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
But from there you then get in the attic where
you've got too hiding places.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But is there a better way to get into the attic.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
That's the best way, secretly, that's the best way.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
The only way at that point was at the spiral staircase, Okay,
which is not where we're going now because the floorboards
are treacherous.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
But we'll go up a different down.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Phil had one more clever hiding hole for me to find.
He took me down another wonky passage and up the
great staircase in search of the final priest hole. And
this time I was determined to find it. I channeled
my inner priest hunter and gave it everything I had.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I'm just going to give up immediately because I've never
got it right.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Someone looks at this little cover down here where that's
too obvious. I mean, he's got that place, it's too obvious.
There's actually a room underneath the stairs here.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Undeath the stairs.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
It doesn't sit flush anymore, but it used to.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
So oh, all of it comes up and there's a
box of treasure in.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
There, a few box of the jewelry. So the hiding
place is that bit down and through there.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Oh, I like this, well a little.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Doorway which is what a couple of foot wide, and
then you've got a hiding place. It's five foot nine
in length, five foot wide and six foot high.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I like that one. That's a really nice salt.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's that's a good size, nice medium, I think for
a priest experiencing their first ever priest hole, this is
a very nice first hole one I experience first, was
your first, and you never you never forget your first.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
So I was in there with a mannequin as well,
were you?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Indeed?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I won't ask any further questions about that.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
You didn't say a lot.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
If you look in the left, you see the hinge
on the door on the doorway.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
There, you mountain hinge.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, so that so that is literally a brick wall.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
It's a door basically in laid with brick.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Give it a nudge, opens up, swings, open in woods,
and then you've got a hiding place inside.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Very nice. How long are you in this one?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
For?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Twenty four twenty four? Yeah, just twenty four twenty four.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Now the jewelry in this one, nice piece of cake?
Did you already in this one? Is because it's the safe.
Precenters find this and think they've just found the safe.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
It's that's what it is, just pure decoy.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That makes sense.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Yeah, you put.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Your family jewels in there and yeah, and so.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Prieston has opened this think oh great, found the safe
superior priests and runs up the stairs saying if you
found anything, and you just go nope, close it, back
door down again.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No nothing, it's all to see here.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
That's basically what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, so you would never imagine there's been a full
room underneath theirs.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
This is like when you're saying this house is much
bigger than you think, because it is just all these
secret rooms and it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Yeah. But the thing is, Nicholas Owen hasn't drawn any
plans up.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
He's done this all in his head. You can't.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
You can't be caught with plans otherwise you're.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
A dead man, of course, not even Orange Juice ones.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
Yeah, so he literally has to.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
He's remodeled everything and if you look to the left
of me, you can see how the floor heights have
all changed in the timber. Yeh, So he's that's to
really do the whole floor heights just to make room
for a priest.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Side. I wouldn't even know how to start.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh, and my watch is telling me I've completed my
ten thousand steps for the day. So this house is
just the gift that keeps on giving.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
We've now got back from walking around this mad wonky
rabbit warren of a house.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
We've got our bearings.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I'm less disorientated now, but it's been incredible. I can
see why you fall in love with the house. It
really is special. What would you say is the one
thing you would take away from the house as a visitor.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
I think, like you say, I think it's just different.
I think that's purely what it is. It's not something
that you normally experience. You know, people go to historic
coaracters all the time, and it's that they're all they
all sort of blend into one and all become the same.
And I think people remember harm't and just purely the
fact it's just unique and there's no other house like it.
And I think that's really the thing. And the whole
secrecy behind it. I mean, you know, we call it
(21:12):
the House of Secrets, and even still now we're finding things.
I had my head up a chimney last year and
found a wall painting that no one's ever noticed before.
You know, it's that kind of thing. So you still
find things even to this day.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
How many years you've been here, six six years and
you're still sticking your head in new things.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Oh yeah, we always ask this question as far as
these houses with history, any ghosts, sign of ghosts, any
wandering priests in the night.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well, officially the official answer is we're not haunted at all.
But I say, but yes, people have experienced things. Of course,
they have all kinds of manner of things. I've experienced
things that are unexplained in this house. You know, are
they a floorboard?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Is it not just creaking? I don't know, but you
know the footsteps.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
You know, you're in the house on your own and
you hear someone walking at speed through the house, So
you you do get things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Are you suggesting this might be the ghosts of priests
scrambling into holes.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
I've never heard any sort of noises around the priest hides.
I think it's more just general it's more just general
walking around, I think more than anything. But yeah, members
of the public have said they've seen things. So some
years ago we had a school group and one of
the little girls started freaking out and started saying there
was a man stunning. That's the tour guide saying, you're
(22:35):
saying it all wrong. You're saying it all wrong. And
apparently the teacher said that this child is not one
to make it up. You know, she's a sensible girl
in the class, so she wouldn't have been making it up,
but she was totally freaked out by it. We've also
had someone complimenting all three people in costume on a
particular day, there was only two, but the man in
gray looked absolutely so authentic, but there was no man
(22:57):
in gray, So we've had that and.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Man in gray who was slightly see through, he really
was bringing it that day. Look he looked awesome.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
But we've also had so the withdrawing room, which is
the room where there's the priest tied with the laddering
that drops down and that's that big window, and we've
had you know, we've had people volunteers of the hall
when they've been on the top of the car park
and we'd finished a rehearsal from a murder mystery event
that we do every year, and this chap called Bill,
who's very sensible. Chap looked back at the window and
(23:27):
could have sworn he saw a lady in gray walk
from one end of the withdrawing room to the other,
just pasted all the windows.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And is he one for making it up?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
He's definitely not one for making it up. It's a
serious bloke.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So no, it was. It's interesting. So people have seen things.
But yeah, I mean all houses make noises, but there
are there is you do hear noises are a bit
I can't really explain that.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, exciting, Phil. You are obviously the number one fan
of Harvington Hall. But outside of Harvington Hall, are there
any other stately homes manor houses that have caught your
eye that you would recommend that you think deserve a
special mention?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Oh, mentioning the enemy? I can't do that.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Sure, aemy anyone who's got a priestide. I'm not call
that a priestide seeing nothing, but I mean genuinely that
there are some cool places around it, I mean local
to hear. You got Badley Clinton, which is another Catholic
house with priest tides in it.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
They say they've got three.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
They've only got two, but that's another.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
What's the third one?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Then?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It's rubbish?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Cupboard?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, just a bloody cupboard mate that there's there's one
that's behind a fireplace. It's not genuine, but some say
there it's genuine. Some say it's not, but yeah, we'll
go with it.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's not anything's a prestide if you're brave enough.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, but I think I think round it. I think
that's probably the only one in Coton Court as well.
There's another kind of one with priestides. But there's there's
loads of places. There's loads, but they're nowhere near Harvington Hall.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
They're not.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I have a possible idea what your answer is going
to be for this as soon as you're literally sat
in costume. But if you could go back and live
at any point in history, what era would you pick?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
And why I'm gonna be boring now because you know
what I'm going to say. I'd definitely go back to
Elizabethan period one. You know, I do reinaptment earlier. I
do Henry the Eight's Reinaptment, but dressed like the way
I'm dressed now that that is that's where I feel
more comfortable. I could I could live like this. To
be honest, I don't know what my wife would say.
But does she get dressed up at all as well?
(25:35):
She she's done a little bit of it, but she's
not really that bothered. I've got a whole bedroom at
home dedicated to Tudor clothing. So I've got a whole
we call it the Tudor Room. How original. But if
we've got swords on the wall, I've even got a
minister is how Obviously I've got a portrait of myself.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
On the wall in costume.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Incredible.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, obviously I love yourself too much, but I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Excellent.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
So yes, Elizabethan, definitely, I would love to be in
all the all the.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Job.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Would you want to do? What sort of person would
you want to be in Elizabethan time?
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I'd have to be a wealthy person, so I'd have
to do a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Do you want to be like military or do you
want to be just arist No aristocracy. I think someone
that goes to court a lot, drinks a lot, dances
a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, yeah, and Elizabethan drunken lord. Yeah. Well there's a
chap himself his house.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Well you say that good?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
The true story this is so the man who built
this house, Humphrey Packington, his cousin was called Sir John
Packington and he was a favorite of Elizabeth and Elizabeth
the First nicknamed him Lusty Packington.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Lusty Packington. Yeah wow.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So if you look at his portrait, literally like your
legs are they just literally all tights? There's literally nothing
else so his portrait, he obviously loves himself, this guy.
And there was a song written after him called Packington's Pound.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Pound of pound of what.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I don't know, but yeah, apparently it's named after him.
It's quite a famous loop song. Yeah, so that's the
kind of man i'd like to be, you know, someone
who you know, you know he was, you got a
lot of attention.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And what about if there was any famous figure throughout
history that you'd like to meet?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It would be very easy for me to say someone
like Henry the Eighth or Elizabeth First, But actually I
would say Nicholas ow And the priest hole Maker.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
You go for him, Yeah, I'll go yeah. Yeah. He's
a genius.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. I mean, it is
relatively unknown, no one really knows about him, but I
would love to just like work out how he does,
how he thinks of these things, and how he actually
constructs it, considering he quite a short man as well,
and he's working on his own. I mean, you know,
he must have been a serious grafter, so I'd love
to sort of have a chat with him and see
what all his uh, you know, ask these little tricks.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Ask if you could build an extension on your house? Yeah,
just a quick do you do conservatory? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Phil, Thank you so much for joining us. It's been
an absolute pleasure. This house is wonderful and you are doing
amazing things with it.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Thanks for coming.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
As I stumble my way out of England's wonkiest house,
I'd just like to say thank you for listening, and
remember hide your priests, eat your fruit.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
All right with it and mind your manners.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Oh fyi, bananas came to England in sixteen and sixty three.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Okay, mind your manners. Bye. Thanks for listening to Bad Manners.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
If you like the pod, please share it with your friends,
Rate it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review and make
sure you spill the tea on any of your favorite
Bad Manners that we could feature in future episodes. This
podcast was produced by Asami Studios for iHeartRadio. It was
hosted by me Tom Horton. It was produced by Willem Lensky,
(28:43):
Rebecca Rappaport and Chris Ataway. It was executive produced by
Face Steur and Zad Rogers. Our production manager is Caitlin
Paramore and our production coordinator is Bella Selini.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Five
Welcome back to bad Manners and welcome back to the
Midlands where we're returning to Harvington Hall, famous for having
the most priest holes in England and filling us in
on those holes, is a man who spent a lot
of time in them programs, Manager Pill Downing. Last time
we heard about evil priest hunter and priest torturer Richard Topliff,
(00:21):
swinging beam priest hides, buckets of the piers and apples.
Speaker 2 (00:25):
But there's one very important person we yet to talk about.
Speaker 1 (00:30):
We can't really talk about Harvington Hall without mentioning Nicholas Owen.
He's sort of integraled to the priest holes. He was
the carpenter, is that right? He yeah, built them.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Correct, So he is the master carpenter. He is the
guy that was traveling around, particularly the Midlands, installing these
ingenious priest hides. This guy's brain works in three D,
so he could literally go into a building and just
sort of knock down walls in his mind and think, well,
I'll just change is that, I'll just move that there.
Speaker 4 (00:57):
And he's that clever.
Speaker 3 (00:58):
They used to actually take stonemasons and brick layers to
houses to search them to see where they've been tampered with.
Now Nicholas owns that ingenius. He could just disguise everything.
So he is literally the master of illusions, like this
guy is was absolutely incredible.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Didn't that become his title?
Speaker 3 (01:15):
Now I've heard that he's the patron saint of illusionists
and escapologists.
Speaker 4 (01:20):
I mean that is very so.
Speaker 3 (01:22):
But he all his designs are different, so he wouldn't
do the same design twice because of course if you
put let's say the swinging beam hide, which we attributed
to him, if he's done that here and they find it,
they'll go to every single house and start pushing on
every single wooden beam. She can't replicate the same trick.
Speaker 2 (01:37):
Yeah, so you're gonna keep on just coming out of different ideas.
Speaker 3 (01:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:41):
He did eventually get captured at one point, didn't He
went to my house? Mild House it is of London.
Speaker 4 (01:46):
Yeah, he was a resident.
Speaker 2 (01:48):
How how did he get caught? What happened to him?
Speaker 3 (01:51):
So he was caught actually ten miles away from here,
a place called Hindletpaul. Now that house there was searched
for twelve days, which is the longest search ever corded.
Just after the Gunpowder plot, now that house no longer exists,
but the ironic thing is in its place is now
the West Mercier Police headquarters. So he was captured there
after four days of hiding. So he had an apple
(02:12):
between him and one of the one of the guy
called Ralph Ashley.
Speaker 4 (02:15):
And it's great.
Speaker 1 (02:17):
No, I just love the apples keep on making a
occurring appearance.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
It's a simple, It is a simple.
Speaker 1 (02:26):
No bananas in this precess that would would they even
have bananas and oranges?
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Orange oranges, but but no apples. But sorry about bananas atual.
I don't know when bananas came in, but there we go.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
That is a that is a question for another podcast.
When did bananas come to England?
Speaker 5 (02:42):
BA expert?
Speaker 2 (02:43):
But yes, so he was captured.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
So basically he was captured on the fourth day of
a twelve day search, recognized instantly, probably because he was
only said to be a short man. His alias was
Little John, so he was going so apparently it was
only like five foot so he was only a small guy.
Speaker 1 (02:59):
And this is probably wrong, but I need to ask it.
Little John no connection in Robin Hood, that's not right.
But his stories might have been mixed up or anything
like that.
Speaker 3 (03:06):
No, I mean I've always thought that though I've often
thought that. But he documented at the time as little John.
He had a limp because he fell off his horse
and broke his leg, and he had a hernia of
all things, so quite quite distinctive chap. So I took
him down to the Tower London put him under torture.
And there's a couple of different stories. So the one
at the Tower of London, which I'm sure you might
remember it, but where the where the rack is Dann
(03:27):
the little Dungeon bit. Yes, there's a bit of writing there.
There's there's actually an image of a guy held up
by the manacles, which is said to be Nicolas owing,
and it says that he the jailers said that he
stabbed himself to death. The story is actually what happened
was they put a metal plate over the hernia to
stop it popping out, and what it actually it was
exploded and it killed him. So he died under torture.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
And so he then exploded, which excluded in him.
Speaker 3 (03:50):
It would have poisoned him, would have been a I'm
sure it's sept a seema or something would have Kington
at that point, that.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Is a yeah, that's a horrible way to go. Yeah,
did he not escape at one? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (04:02):
So ye before that, so a few years before he
was captured and he basically yeah, I don't think he
was arrested because they didn't know who he was. So
he had been he had been captured before, but they
knew he was at this point. So Robert Cecil was
very happy when they captured I can't remember the exact quote,
but basically very happy that they had captured Nicholas home.
(04:24):
But he also praised him for how amazing his work was.
But they were joyous that they captured him. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
Wow, what a guy Nicholas.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
Also, we think he was the mastermind behind helping John
Gerard escape the tower as well.
Speaker 3 (04:41):
Yeah, I mean that's the theory I've heard. Whether I
believe it or not, I'm not sure. But yeah, he's
supposedly the guy that masterminded the escape, which is which
as you know, I'm sure you know that very few
people ever escaped the Tower of London, but John Gerrard did.
Speaker 1 (04:53):
Yeah, there are only a few cross dressers he's escaped
at some point. So know, I think that's that's a
that's a trick of getting out of the Tower Ross
thing that was pretty pretty famous.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
But tell the story of John John.
Speaker 3 (05:05):
So basically, he was a Jesuit priest during the reign
of Elizabeth First, and he's he's like a priest with
nine lives. I mean, he literally was dodging the authorities.
He'd hidden many priest hides. Two of them that definitely
know were Nicholas Owen priest hides that he hid in
and and and escaped.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
I love the idea that Nicholas Owen, this isn't just
any priestide, this is a Nicholas Owen priest side exactly.
Speaker 4 (05:30):
Mark and Spencer, I wasn't sure if you can mention,
just like, so you.
Speaker 2 (05:36):
Want your hide to be luxurious, less dusty, with more
apples than the usual hide, then get Nicholas Owen hyde.
Speaker 3 (05:45):
Yeah, something like that. So so yeah, so John Jard
hid Nicholas difference and so what happened was so basically
John Yard escaped this house called Braddock's, and three weeks
later he was captured with Nicholas Owen and they recognized
John Gerrard's disclaimer it.
Speaker 2 (06:06):
Will not always work. Sometimes you'll get captured.
Speaker 3 (06:10):
But he wasn't in the height at that point. So
let him of if he was in the bedroom at
that point, and he basically yes. So they captured John Jard,
they recognized who he was. They threw him into into prison.
Then he went into the tower, London, and then he
escapes the tower.
Speaker 2 (06:24):
And how does he escape?
Speaker 3 (06:26):
So he wrote a letter in orange juice. Now orange
juice is secret ink, so it dries clear. So so
basically befriended the jailer in the in the tower London,
and he said, look, can I get some oranges? And
the guy will a bit odd, but yeah, we'll get
some oranges. And he was making rosaries out of the
peel of the of the the orange, sending it to
his friends. On the outside, clearly wrapped in paper, just
(06:47):
looks like a blank piece of paper. Friends knew what
it was. Hold it up to a candlelight and of
course all the words then appear on the page, come
and rescue me from the tower.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
Because you can just see through the light that it's which.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
Sort of yeah, it's just the ink just appears. So
quite a cool trick.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Actually, oh the hell did they find that out?
Speaker 5 (07:03):
I don't know.
Speaker 3 (07:03):
It's the same with lemon du so it's it's a
citrus thing is it say to do it with lemons
as well?
Speaker 2 (07:07):
Genius, very clever, very clever.
Speaker 3 (07:09):
So yeah, that happened, and then fruit are saving the
day left right in the center in this story.
Speaker 4 (07:14):
Never thought of it like that.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
A lot of fruit, A lot of fruit, A lot
of fruit.
Speaker 5 (07:19):
No, no banas.
Speaker 3 (07:20):
But but yeah it worked, and yeah he escaped and
of course he'd been also hung up by the manacles
by Richard Topliffe, the priest huner. Yeah, so he had
to get across the moat, didn't he. Yeah, so that
of course the rope sort of like on a forty
five degree angle, and he's managed to kind of just
climb down becau siddeny. His wrists have been mangled by
being hung up by the manacles. Yeah, so God helped
(07:42):
him on that day.
Speaker 2 (07:42):
So I do.
Speaker 1 (07:43):
Feel like you hear this, A lot of priests are
doing some pretty physically demanding stuff. I do think God
has to be a bit with him at some point,
give them that strength.
Speaker 3 (07:52):
But I think a lot of people expect Friar Tuck
as well. When you mentioned the priest, you imagine this
big guy, but actually they're young guys like us, and
just that that they're relative be fit.
Speaker 4 (08:00):
So yeah, okay priests, Yeah yeah.
Speaker 2 (08:04):
Very kind of filled.
Speaker 1 (08:05):
Call me young, and I didn't even have to pay
him much. By the way, Action Priests will be in
a cinema this Christmas near you time now for a tour.
(08:25):
It's all well and good hearing about these genius priest hides,
but I wanted to see them for myself, so Phil
took me up his passage.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
To have a look at his holes.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
If you come this way, I'm not going to guess
there's no possible way.
Speaker 5 (08:39):
There's no way.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
If you look above our heads here, you see that
beam running across the top, and you know under the CEI.
Speaker 5 (08:45):
I can see that.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Yeah, I can see that.
Speaker 4 (08:46):
It's a bit of steel that's holding my house up.
Speaker 3 (08:48):
But that being there suggests that the room actually was
up to here and then was not backwards to make
room for a hiding place. Because if you look above
that this porch area, can see some more painting up there.
It's a bit of plastered wall painting. Now that war painting.
You wouldn't have gone to all that trouble painting your
wars and then put paneling over the top of it.
Speaker 5 (09:09):
So that painting there is dead.
Speaker 3 (09:11):
In line with a mermaid wall painting in the in
the corridor through there.
Speaker 2 (09:14):
In the mermaid passage, in the Mermaid passage.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
Yes, I've always wanted to be in a Mermaid's passage.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Now, if you have a look above that door, can
you see a twotail Mermaid's be like the Starbucks coffee
I can, Yes, there she is now she as I said,
it is dead in line with the painting in this room.
So this was once a corridor and all the walls
were knocked back. So Nicholas O and the priest't makers
knocked the walls backwards through here to make room for
a priest tide.
Speaker 2 (09:42):
Right, and where is it? Well?
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Firstly, now this is where the house becomes confusing when
you get enter here.
Speaker 2 (09:49):
So yeah, the entire floor is just sloped the wrong way. Yeah,
this has gone madness.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
So where are you in relation to downstairs?
Speaker 1 (09:56):
Now?
Speaker 2 (09:57):
Are we above the kitchen? I'm not long, I'm lost.
Speaker 4 (10:01):
Yeah, this is the whole purpose of it.
Speaker 3 (10:02):
So notice now the floor height changes just over there,
the floor height changes next to you where you're standing
there and behind you is a spiral staircase.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (10:12):
And also to the left of me is a corridor.
Speaker 2 (10:15):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (10:16):
So the whole idea now is to confuse you. This
is the illusion part of it. This is an illusion
out here. One thing that you will notice if we
go to the back of the house at some point,
you will notice all the windows are jumbled up. They
don't you can't see how many stories the house is on.
And that's because all the floor heights change. And it's
too confusion because priest hides can be seen from the outside.
So that's why they do it.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Well, it definitely works. I was so confused walking around
Harvington Hall. I didn't know which way was up and
then we started walking up.
Speaker 4 (10:42):
I think we're gonna go up these We've got four
or five steps here.
Speaker 1 (10:47):
Yeah, more spiral steps. This is a tiny room in now.
Speaker 3 (10:58):
Now this is the smallest room of the house. People
come around and not on a guided toll. They walk
and again that's the library, don't have much of it,
and they leave the room. However, we now have the
most ingenious priest hide in this house and arguably the
second most ingenious priest hide in England. So in front
of where we're standing now we've got a ladder goes
onto like a raised platform, and that originally is the
(11:19):
book covered.
Speaker 5 (11:20):
So if you.
Speaker 3 (11:21):
Imagine in front of us here we can't see it now,
but you'd have two doors in front, and then we've
got paneling still on the back wall, but there would
have been paneling on the wall on the left and
paneling on the wall on the right. Now books stacked
to the ceiling. You're standing here as a priest hunter.
That's just a book covered.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Yep.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
However, if I climb into the book covered.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Oh we really are climbing in. Yeah, excellent.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
So what we now see is this brick wall. You
would have un clipped the paneling off the wall and
you've just got normal kind of brick wall and a
wouldn't beam, But this beam here, if I push on
the top of it.
Speaker 1 (11:58):
No flipped up. Amazing, So that's probably they sprung into action.
I thought it was going to be a slow fader,
but it was actually.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
You've got to you've got to move pretty quick. Yeah,
you do have no time to waste. So that priest
hide in there is the one I spent thirty six
hours in.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
You spent thirty six hours in that.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
So eight foot long, three foot wide and five foot
high do you want to.
Speaker 1 (12:24):
Go in, absolutely, but can we make a promise that
you let me out?
Speaker 2 (12:29):
I don't, I don't. Thirty six hounds is a bit
too long for.
Speaker 3 (12:32):
Me, so you've got to go side on to get in.
There's no way, literally a foot wide.
Speaker 1 (12:35):
That I've felt fatter in my life.
Speaker 4 (12:44):
They are, Yeah, now bear in mind.
Speaker 3 (12:47):
Yeah, you've got a window in there so you can
see it, but it's still quite dark even with the window.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
I sat on my spoon. It's really dark.
Speaker 1 (12:58):
Yeah, this window looks back out into the corridor.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
But through that window is where the little boy found
the hide, So that would have been a brick wall,
of course. And then we've put a window and so
you can have a look, so you can see how
dark it is even though there's a window. And this
beam's open, but you imagine that had been closed down.
Should I close you in?
Speaker 2 (13:20):
Yes? Please.
Speaker 3 (13:21):
Now you're going to see gaps around the around the beam,
but you have to imagine that this would be sitting flush.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
I don't want to make any noise now, I feel
like I should be silently here.
Speaker 3 (13:37):
So you're actually above the corridor where we've just been
as well, so you imagine you're sitting on the floor there.
Speaker 5 (13:41):
If you move and it creaks.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
People were here underneath you, so you're hovering basically above
the corridor.
Speaker 1 (13:48):
I can I'm already really aware of my breathing. I
breathe really loudly.
Speaker 5 (13:56):
Do you know what?
Speaker 3 (13:56):
And you can actually hear so. James, the assistant manager,
when I saw in there. This might sound a bit creepy,
but he was actually could hear me breathing.
Speaker 5 (14:03):
Through the wall.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
That is freaky.
Speaker 5 (14:05):
It's freaky. It's more creepy. Why is he listening to
me breathing through at all?
Speaker 2 (14:10):
But yeah, I mean it's it's very claustrophobic in here.
Speaker 1 (14:15):
And the idea of spending ten days, yeah, yeah, I
go insane.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
I can I please come out now? Guys Hello.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
They didn't leave me in there for ten days, but
it was certainly longer than I had liked. Next up
on the tour was the priest's bedchamber. You know, we
hadn't known each other for that long, but Phil had
already let me climb inside one of his holes, and
now he was showing me his boudoir. I didn't even
have to buy him dinner.
Speaker 4 (14:47):
So this was a priest bedchamber at one time. And
actually if you look.
Speaker 3 (14:51):
Through the door there, you'll see I don't know if
the other door on the fire ends open, but there's
three interconnecting doors or rooms, so they're all pres bedchambers.
Speaker 5 (14:59):
All the way through.
Speaker 2 (15:00):
This one's the red room.
Speaker 4 (15:01):
That's called the Red Room.
Speaker 5 (15:02):
Yeah, a bit.
Speaker 2 (15:03):
Christian gray a Catholic not Christian.
Speaker 3 (15:06):
No, Yeah, probably not the best name for the room.
But this room holds secrets as well. If I make
my way over back to the doorway. Any idea what
room is directly beneath where I'm standing?
Speaker 2 (15:23):
Is it the library?
Speaker 4 (15:24):
You're not far wrong. Yeah, so this is where.
Speaker 5 (15:26):
The priest hide is. You've been in above it now, yeah,
you're literally above it.
Speaker 2 (15:30):
He really is all angles.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
He's got people walking around trying to find him.
Speaker 3 (15:34):
So the whole idea is you walk around the spiral staircase,
which is there. But again it's a bit of a
way of trying to confuse you. But it's literally underneath here.
But there's something else about this room. If you're asleep
in your bed over there and you hear all the
commotion priests and is charging up the stairs, you think, well,
I need to get out of here.
Speaker 5 (15:51):
First thing, you'll be panicking.
Speaker 3 (15:52):
If you go through those two rooms that connect to
this one, you're trapped. There's nowhere out, no way to escape.
But there's an escape route in this room.
Speaker 4 (16:00):
There's a way out, is it?
Speaker 1 (16:08):
I don't know where it is. This is impossible house
to figure out. I've got no idea.
Speaker 5 (16:14):
Over in the.
Speaker 3 (16:14):
Corner of there, there's a fireplace is fake fake not
a real fireplace. There's a mirror that I thought she's
a light so off she can't but there's we'll go
up there so you can see it.
Speaker 5 (16:25):
But on that mirror wall she actually if.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
You go down your knees that they love a look up,
you'll see it. So there's an escape. The escape roots
up there the chimney. Yeah, into the attic.
Speaker 2 (16:35):
That's ingenious.
Speaker 3 (16:36):
Yeah, now I know someone that has climbed up there.
I've never tried it, but there are things to hold
on to you. I've got to be really thin. It's
really small space. But notice the back wall there look
all painted.
Speaker 2 (16:49):
In black, so it looks like it's been on exactly.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
But from there you then get in the attic where
you've got too hiding places.
Speaker 2 (16:56):
But is there a better way to get into the attic.
Speaker 3 (16:58):
That's the best way, secretly, that's the best way.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (17:01):
The only way at that point was at the spiral staircase, Okay,
which is not where we're going now because the floorboards
are treacherous.
Speaker 5 (17:07):
But we'll go up a different down.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Phil had one more clever hiding hole for me to find.
He took me down another wonky passage and up the
great staircase in search of the final priest hole. And
this time I was determined to find it. I channeled
my inner priest hunter and gave it everything I had.
Speaker 2 (17:28):
I'm just going to give up immediately because I've never
got it right.
Speaker 4 (17:31):
Someone looks at this little cover down here where that's
too obvious. I mean, he's got that place, it's too obvious.
There's actually a room underneath the stairs here.
Speaker 2 (17:43):
Undeath the stairs.
Speaker 4 (17:45):
It doesn't sit flush anymore, but it used to.
Speaker 2 (17:48):
So oh, all of it comes up and there's a
box of treasure in.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
There, a few box of the jewelry. So the hiding
place is that bit down and through there.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
Oh, I like this, well a little.
Speaker 3 (18:00):
Doorway which is what a couple of foot wide, and
then you've got a hiding place. It's five foot nine
in length, five foot wide and six foot high.
Speaker 2 (18:08):
I like that one. That's a really nice salt.
Speaker 1 (18:09):
That's that's a good size, nice medium, I think for
a priest experiencing their first ever priest hole, this is
a very nice first hole one I experience first, was
your first, and you never you never forget your first.
Speaker 4 (18:25):
So I was in there with a mannequin as well,
were you?
Speaker 2 (18:28):
Indeed?
Speaker 5 (18:28):
Yeah?
Speaker 2 (18:31):
I won't ask any further questions about that.
Speaker 5 (18:33):
You didn't say a lot.
Speaker 4 (18:36):
If you look in the left, you see the hinge
on the door on the doorway.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
There, you mountain hinge.
Speaker 3 (18:40):
Yeah, so that so that is literally a brick wall.
Speaker 5 (18:44):
It's a door basically in laid with brick.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
Give it a nudge, opens up, swings, open in woods,
and then you've got a hiding place inside.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
Very nice. How long are you in this one?
Speaker 4 (18:52):
For?
Speaker 2 (18:52):
Twenty four twenty four? Yeah, just twenty four twenty four.
Speaker 3 (18:56):
Now the jewelry in this one, nice piece of cake?
Did you already in this one? Is because it's the safe.
Precenters find this and think they've just found the safe.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
It's that's what it is, just pure decoy.
Speaker 2 (19:08):
That makes sense.
Speaker 5 (19:09):
Yeah, you put.
Speaker 4 (19:11):
Your family jewels in there and yeah, and so.
Speaker 3 (19:14):
Prieston has opened this think oh great, found the safe
superior priests and runs up the stairs saying if you
found anything, and you just go nope, close it, back
door down again.
Speaker 2 (19:25):
No nothing, it's all to see here.
Speaker 5 (19:28):
That's basically what you're doing.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
Yeah, so you would never imagine there's been a full
room underneath theirs.
Speaker 5 (19:33):
That's pretty cool.
Speaker 2 (19:34):
That's really cool.
Speaker 1 (19:36):
This is like when you're saying this house is much
bigger than you think, because it is just all these
secret rooms and it's amazing.
Speaker 4 (19:41):
Yeah. But the thing is, Nicholas Owen hasn't drawn any
plans up.
Speaker 5 (19:45):
He's done this all in his head. You can't.
Speaker 4 (19:47):
You can't be caught with plans otherwise you're.
Speaker 2 (19:49):
A dead man, of course, not even Orange Juice ones.
Speaker 5 (19:51):
Yeah, so he literally has to.
Speaker 3 (19:53):
He's remodeled everything and if you look to the left
of me, you can see how the floor heights have
all changed in the timber. Yeh, So he's that's to
really do the whole floor heights just to make room
for a priest.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Side. I wouldn't even know how to start.
Speaker 4 (20:07):
No.
Speaker 1 (20:09):
Oh, and my watch is telling me I've completed my
ten thousand steps for the day. So this house is
just the gift that keeps on giving.
Speaker 2 (20:15):
Thank you very much.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
We've now got back from walking around this mad wonky
rabbit warren of a house.
Speaker 2 (20:35):
We've got our bearings.
Speaker 1 (20:36):
I'm less disorientated now, but it's been incredible. I can
see why you fall in love with the house. It
really is special. What would you say is the one
thing you would take away from the house as a visitor.
Speaker 3 (20:51):
I think, like you say, I think it's just different.
I think that's purely what it is. It's not something
that you normally experience. You know, people go to historic
coaracters all the time, and it's that they're all they
all sort of blend into one and all become the same.
And I think people remember harm't and just purely the
fact it's just unique and there's no other house like it.
And I think that's really the thing. And the whole
secrecy behind it. I mean, you know, we call it
(21:12):
the House of Secrets, and even still now we're finding things.
I had my head up a chimney last year and
found a wall painting that no one's ever noticed before.
You know, it's that kind of thing. So you still
find things even to this day.
Speaker 2 (21:23):
I love that.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
How many years you've been here, six six years and
you're still sticking your head in new things.
Speaker 6 (21:30):
Oh yeah, we always ask this question as far as
these houses with history, any ghosts, sign of ghosts, any
wandering priests in the night.
Speaker 3 (21:41):
Well, officially the official answer is we're not haunted at all.
But I say, but yes, people have experienced things. Of course,
they have all kinds of manner of things. I've experienced
things that are unexplained in this house. You know, are
they a floorboard?
Speaker 4 (21:58):
Is it not just creaking? I don't know, but you
know the footsteps.
Speaker 3 (22:02):
You know, you're in the house on your own and
you hear someone walking at speed through the house, So
you you do get things like that.
Speaker 1 (22:09):
Are you suggesting this might be the ghosts of priests
scrambling into holes.
Speaker 5 (22:13):
I've never heard.
Speaker 3 (22:14):
I've never heard any sort of noises around the priest hides.
I think it's more just general it's more just general
walking around, I think more than anything. But yeah, members
of the public have said they've seen things. So some
years ago we had a school group and one of
the little girls started freaking out and started saying there
was a man stunning. That's the tour guide saying, you're
(22:35):
saying it all wrong. You're saying it all wrong. And
apparently the teacher said that this child is not one
to make it up. You know, she's a sensible girl
in the class, so she wouldn't have been making it up,
but she was totally freaked out by it. We've also
had someone complimenting all three people in costume on a
particular day, there was only two, but the man in
gray looked absolutely so authentic, but there was no man
(22:57):
in gray, So we've had that and.
Speaker 1 (23:00):
Man in gray who was slightly see through, he really
was bringing it that day. Look he looked awesome.
Speaker 3 (23:05):
But we've also had so the withdrawing room, which is
the room where there's the priest tied with the laddering
that drops down and that's that big window, and we've
had you know, we've had people volunteers of the hall
when they've been on the top of the car park
and we'd finished a rehearsal from a murder mystery event
that we do every year, and this chap called Bill,
who's very sensible. Chap looked back at the window and
(23:27):
could have sworn he saw a lady in gray walk
from one end of the withdrawing room to the other,
just pasted all the windows.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
And is he one for making it up?
Speaker 4 (23:37):
He's definitely not one for making it up. It's a
serious bloke.
Speaker 3 (23:39):
So no, it was. It's interesting. So people have seen things.
But yeah, I mean all houses make noises, but there
are there is you do hear noises are a bit
I can't really explain that.
Speaker 1 (23:51):
Yeah, exciting, Phil. You are obviously the number one fan
of Harvington Hall. But outside of Harvington Hall, are there
any other stately homes manor houses that have caught your
eye that you would recommend that you think deserve a
special mention?
Speaker 4 (24:07):
Oh, mentioning the enemy? I can't do that.
Speaker 3 (24:10):
Sure, aemy anyone who's got a priestide. I'm not call
that a priestide seeing nothing, but I mean genuinely that
there are some cool places around it, I mean local
to hear. You got Badley Clinton, which is another Catholic
house with priest tides in it.
Speaker 5 (24:27):
They say they've got three.
Speaker 4 (24:27):
They've only got two, but that's another.
Speaker 2 (24:30):
What's the third one?
Speaker 4 (24:30):
Then?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
What do you think?
Speaker 4 (24:31):
It's rubbish?
Speaker 2 (24:32):
Cupboard?
Speaker 3 (24:33):
Yeah, just a bloody cupboard mate that there's there's one
that's behind a fireplace. It's not genuine, but some say
there it's genuine. Some say it's not, but yeah, we'll
go with it.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
It's not anything's a prestide if you're brave enough.
Speaker 3 (24:43):
Yeah, but I think I think round it. I think
that's probably the only one in Coton Court as well.
There's another kind of one with priestides. But there's there's
loads of places. There's loads, but they're nowhere near Harvington Hall.
Speaker 5 (24:56):
They're not.
Speaker 1 (24:59):
I have a possible idea what your answer is going
to be for this as soon as you're literally sat
in costume. But if you could go back and live
at any point in history, what era would you pick?
Speaker 3 (25:13):
And why I'm gonna be boring now because you know
what I'm going to say. I'd definitely go back to
Elizabethan period one. You know, I do reinaptment earlier. I
do Henry the Eight's Reinaptment, but dressed like the way
I'm dressed now that that is that's where I feel
more comfortable. I could I could live like this. To
be honest, I don't know what my wife would say.
But does she get dressed up at all as well?
(25:35):
She she's done a little bit of it, but she's
not really that bothered. I've got a whole bedroom at
home dedicated to Tudor clothing. So I've got a whole
we call it the Tudor Room. How original. But if
we've got swords on the wall, I've even got a
minister is how Obviously I've got a portrait of myself.
Speaker 4 (25:49):
On the wall in costume.
Speaker 2 (25:50):
Incredible.
Speaker 4 (25:51):
Yeah, obviously I love yourself too much, but I appreciate that.
Speaker 2 (25:54):
Excellent.
Speaker 4 (25:55):
So yes, Elizabethan, definitely, I would love to be in
all the all the.
Speaker 3 (26:00):
Job.
Speaker 2 (26:00):
Would you want to do? What sort of person would
you want to be in Elizabethan time?
Speaker 4 (26:04):
I'd have to be a wealthy person, so I'd have
to do a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:07):
Sure. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (26:07):
Do you want to be like military or do you
want to be just arist No aristocracy. I think someone
that goes to court a lot, drinks a lot, dances
a lot.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Okay, yeah, and Elizabethan drunken lord. Yeah. Well there's a
chap himself his house.
Speaker 4 (26:21):
Well you say that good?
Speaker 3 (26:22):
The true story this is so the man who built
this house, Humphrey Packington, his cousin was called Sir John
Packington and he was a favorite of Elizabeth and Elizabeth
the First nicknamed him Lusty Packington.
Speaker 2 (26:35):
Lusty Packington. Yeah wow.
Speaker 3 (26:38):
So if you look at his portrait, literally like your
legs are they just literally all tights? There's literally nothing
else so his portrait, he obviously loves himself, this guy.
And there was a song written after him called Packington's Pound.
Speaker 2 (26:50):
Pound of pound of what.
Speaker 3 (26:53):
I don't know, but yeah, apparently it's named after him.
It's quite a famous loop song. Yeah, so that's the
kind of man i'd like to be, you know, someone
who you know, you know he was, you got a
lot of attention.
Speaker 1 (27:04):
And what about if there was any famous figure throughout
history that you'd like to meet?
Speaker 3 (27:10):
It would be very easy for me to say someone
like Henry the Eighth or Elizabeth First, But actually I
would say Nicholas ow And the priest hole Maker.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
You go for him, Yeah, I'll go yeah. Yeah. He's
a genius.
Speaker 3 (27:21):
Yeah, I mean that's the thing. I mean, it is
relatively unknown, no one really knows about him, but I
would love to just like work out how he does,
how he thinks of these things, and how he actually
constructs it, considering he quite a short man as well,
and he's working on his own. I mean, you know,
he must have been a serious grafter, so I'd love
to sort of have a chat with him and see
what all his uh, you know, ask these little tricks.
Speaker 2 (27:43):
Ask if you could build an extension on your house? Yeah,
just a quick do you do conservatory? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (27:51):
Phil, Thank you so much for joining us. It's been
an absolute pleasure. This house is wonderful and you are doing
amazing things with it.
Speaker 2 (27:57):
Thank you, thank you.
Speaker 4 (27:58):
Thanks for coming.
Speaker 1 (28:00):
As I stumble my way out of England's wonkiest house,
I'd just like to say thank you for listening, and
remember hide your priests, eat your fruit.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
All right with it and mind your manners.
Speaker 1 (28:11):
Oh fyi, bananas came to England in sixteen and sixty three.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Okay, mind your manners. Bye. Thanks for listening to Bad Manners.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
If you like the pod, please share it with your friends,
Rate it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or
wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review and make
sure you spill the tea on any of your favorite
Bad Manners that we could feature in future episodes. This
podcast was produced by Asami Studios for iHeartRadio. It was
hosted by me Tom Horton. It was produced by Willem Lensky,
(28:43):
Rebecca Rappaport and Chris Ataway. It was executive produced by
Face Steur and Zad Rogers. Our production manager is Caitlin
Paramore and our production coordinator is Bella Selini.
Speaker 2 (29:00):
Five
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