Inveraray Castle: The Dirty Duchess

Eleanor Campbell, Duchess of Argyll

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
So in COVID we had two years without any money
coming in and that we could actually had about six
weeks left of being able to keep the house really
and then thank goodness we are allowed to us back
in and filming and other stuff.

Speaker 2 (00:13):
Filming and other stuff is the topic of today's episode.
We're back with Eleanor Campbell, the Duchess of Argyle, who
I should stress is not the duchess referred to in
the title of this episode, but in fact the current
first lady of Inverary Castle. Last time we heard all
about the Campbell clan and then murderous ways. This time

(00:34):
Eleanor is going to be telling us about a shipwreck
with a curse, a headless man and a sensational case
of revenge porn from the nineteen sixties that rocked the
British press. And it's not just scandal that this castle
attracts people.

Speaker 1 (00:48):
Right to me, I'll get twenty miles a day saying
can I do X? And a lot of time you'll
say no, but yes, but you know, if it's a
good idea, of course I'll consider it.

Speaker 3 (00:56):
Yeah, is it?

Speaker 1 (00:57):
But obviously it has to be commercial for me, or
it's got to be good for the community. So I've
got you know, if it's a charity party, that's not
going to happen on my watch, right, not gonna happen.
But if the community want to do something charitable, of
course I'll consider that and I won't charge with the
local community. But if you want wedding, car rally, filming, anything, anything.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Oh yeah, you've had lots of filming. You've had the
dance and Nabbey Twoy twelve Christmas spas we did.

Speaker 3 (01:26):
It was great.

Speaker 2 (01:28):
Tell me about that? How is that?

Speaker 3 (01:30):
So that was brilliant.

Speaker 1 (01:30):
So they rang us the Downton Abbey Carnival Productions and
said can we check you out? And we want authentic Scotland,
So we want like kills, we want deer, and we
want rainbows and we want lost and we want glens.
And they came through Ekie and it was one of
those days that I mean, it was amazing. So that
you know that we took them up the hill and
the deer sort of walked past them, sort of prancing
in a neat road and a.

Speaker 3 (01:51):
Rainbow came out and you know, it was absolutely it
was perfect.

Speaker 2 (01:55):
Everyone got the memo.

Speaker 1 (01:57):
Squirrels hopping their way past. It was perfect. It was
absolutely scot porpoises jumping out of the lot.

Speaker 3 (02:03):
We were really lucky, it was. It was perfect.

Speaker 1 (02:05):
And so they filmed the Christmas Special, which was great,
and we weren't allowed to tell anyone what was going
on because they said, but we've got Maggie Smith and
you know, Michelle Docksy and whatever all walking through our
very small town.

Speaker 2 (02:20):
So it's pretty But I'd be doing everything I can
to try and have a whiskey with Maggie Smith or
talked to in any capacity. No, all right, fair enough.
I think me and Maggie would get on quite well. Actually,
I think we'd enjoy a whiskey together. She could tell
me all about her acting career, working for the National
Theater and the Royal Shakespeare Company, winning her Oscars, what

(02:44):
it was like to work with awesome wells, you know,
and I could tell her about the stuff that I've done, like, actually,
do you know what, I don't think I've got time
for this, sorry, Maggie. I'm actually quite busy recording here
in the studio, in this tiny room surrounded by bed sheets.

(03:08):
What else did they film at the castle?

Speaker 1 (03:11):
Lots of documentaries, So we've got one on PBS that's
been going for about ten years now, which is huge,
still amazingly on what it's like to live in a
house like ours. And then we did a British scandal
which was the story of my husband's step grandmother.

Speaker 3 (03:24):
So we did that.

Speaker 1 (03:26):
So they came to us in lockdown because you were
still allowed to film in lockdown, you weren't allowed any tourists, yes,
and we would really.

Speaker 3 (03:32):
Quite run out of money by then.

Speaker 1 (03:33):
And then they said they rang us first fill you know,
zoom as we all did in lockdown, and said just
let you know, we're going to film about your grandfather
and your step grandmother and you've got you basically can't
stop us.

Speaker 3 (03:46):
We're going to do it anyway, which is fine. That
was very nice, Curtier.

Speaker 1 (03:49):
It's a very curse, I'm sure, because it has you know,
it's quite a scandalous story for our family. And we said,
oh no, no, but actually we haven't had any money.
Would you like to film here? And they went, well,
you'd never agree with that, and we knew we would
actually just come a film anyway.

Speaker 3 (04:01):
So they were brilliant. They were absolutely amazing.

Speaker 1 (04:03):
They were so fresh and we all, you know, it
was the amazing kilt lady made the made all the
kilts for them.

Speaker 2 (04:09):
I guess because you can just go, hey, do you
want to need local contacts for anything? Here? You have
all that.

Speaker 1 (04:13):
So we did so we said, you know, obviously, you
know the duke's got to wear the right kilt and whatever,
and here's the best number.

Speaker 2 (04:18):
Nice.

Speaker 3 (04:19):
I'm so a lovely friend made this.

Speaker 2 (04:21):
She must love you. Well.

Speaker 1 (04:23):
She was brilliant because weren't allowed to know who it was,
but we knew it was celebrities, so she emailed me game,
he's six foot three with a thirty two inch waist?

Speaker 3 (04:29):
Who is it? So we were then like, oh, who
is it?

Speaker 1 (04:32):
So the teenage George was like, oh, I really hope
it's Chris Hemsworth and I was like, no, I don't
think he's six foot three or whatever.

Speaker 3 (04:39):
The thirty two inch.

Speaker 1 (04:39):
Waste was all guessing and it was Paul Bettany, very nice,
so sort of tall, lanky, Sorry if that's not a companment,
Paul Bettany And.

Speaker 2 (04:52):
Okay, anyway, he's quite lanky, He's very very I'm Paul
Bettany is well, if you are listening to this podcast,
no doubt we know we no no, and.

Speaker 1 (05:04):
Then Claire Foy was was playing Margaret our girl, so lovely. Yeah,
So they did two weeks filming and then they were
meant to be filming on Mull and whatever as well,
but actually, because it was lockdown, they just filmed in
the lock as well. So there was a lot of
jumping into the lock looking for our secret hiden galleon
that's actually on Mull, but no one can find it.

Speaker 2 (05:23):
So there's a galleon that's meant to be hidden in
the lock.

Speaker 3 (05:26):
So in the Bay of Tobermory.

Speaker 1 (05:28):
So you know on Balomouri the children's program that fillage
with the colored houses, which is exactly but that's because
we all know Balamoy is really called Tobermory, and it's
well and it's a bay in Mull.

Speaker 3 (05:43):
And then in.

Speaker 1 (05:45):
Times the pay ship of the Armada, so it's got
the Pope's crown, millions of gold coins whatever. It went
down in Tobermory Bay, and we own whatever is wrecked
in that bay.

Speaker 2 (05:57):
Yes, why why are you here? Why? Why why aren't
we looking for this?

Speaker 1 (06:02):
Because every generation has wasted millions or the equivalent of
millions trying to find this.

Speaker 2 (06:07):
Yeah, I'll be buying a snorkel and a metal detector
immediately and going down there exactly.

Speaker 1 (06:11):
But yeah, but the money, of course, no one's got
the money to do that anymore. That's that's that's millions
that no one's got.

Speaker 2 (06:18):
That's true.

Speaker 3 (06:18):
Yes, So anyway, that's a shame. That thick, thick mud.

Speaker 1 (06:22):
So apparently it's like a little bit of water and
then marmite. Not actually my might, but it's like my right.
So finding something down there, it's not.

Speaker 2 (06:28):
It's to sink properly into the mud.

Speaker 1 (06:30):
So it's just a thick, thick, gloopy mud. So it's
not a question of you know, oh look there's.

Speaker 3 (06:35):
A cram listening on the sea.

Speaker 2 (06:39):
Exactly.

Speaker 3 (06:40):
Gold it's not like that.

Speaker 1 (06:42):
But there is a curse too, So anyone who finds curse,
the curse, the curse. So whoever finds that galleon, I
will be struck by fire. So every generations tried to
find it and then talk calls dad. So my husband's
dad were now in like the seventies, he was looking
for it with his snorkel, I think, or maybe a
bit more all that, but not I don't think he
was like with a big team. I think he found

(07:03):
this bit of wood and he brought it up and
he had it tested and it was the right wood
from the right era. Down there, all much excitement. Castle
burns down. Yeah wow, almost imasially saying like nineteen seventy
six and there's a massive fire in the castle and.

Speaker 3 (07:20):
Yeah, oh wow, So hopefully the curse is broken.

Speaker 2 (07:23):
So now do you think it was just a one
time curse? And then god hep. I don't know.

Speaker 1 (07:28):
There's been two big fires in the castle, but this
one was because the galleon thing was found, or it
was an electrical problem in a cupboard.

Speaker 2 (07:34):
I think I'm leaving the galleon to be Yeah, I
think something to tell you just don't touch that.

Speaker 1 (07:39):
Don't touch that in or they would save every problem.
Oh you'd have an amazing roof.

Speaker 2 (07:43):
Well unless it burned down, that's true. What was the
second fire that happened in me?

Speaker 3 (07:49):
There was one in Queen Victoria's daughter time.

Speaker 2 (07:51):
What happened there?

Speaker 1 (07:52):
There was a I don't remember fifty I remember.

Speaker 2 (07:58):
Do you know?

Speaker 3 (07:59):
I was only fifty January. It was not all that long.

Speaker 1 (08:01):
So there was a lightning strike under Queen Victoria's Daughter's time.
We had if you pitch the castle. The top floor's
got massive glass windows and they were staying glass in
those days. And there was a lightning strike and then
there was a fire ship off the light Yes.

Speaker 2 (08:15):
Goodness, goodness, golly, a lightning that's unusual.

Speaker 3 (08:20):
Though we have lightning rods now, luckily do you?

Speaker 2 (08:23):
Yeah? Lots.

Speaker 1 (08:24):
So Princess Louise and husband lived in another house they
had about an hour away, but they let out the castle.

Speaker 3 (08:32):
So I found the brochure.

Speaker 1 (08:33):
I found the equivalent of a Lettings brochure in the
attic in Lockdown, which is brilliant. It said, you know,
we do have running water, but we don't have electricity,
and we don't have this than that, but we do
have lots of rabbits to shoot. And that was meant
to be a big set of it was the use.

Speaker 3 (08:47):
Of a carriage. It was brilliant.

Speaker 1 (08:48):
It's a really great and it was like a little
for a four folded into three with useful information. If
you want to rent a castle that's just burnt.

Speaker 2 (08:57):
Yeah, no room for any running water, you can shoot
a lot.

Speaker 3 (09:02):
We don't have any rabbits now, but shot.

Speaker 2 (09:17):
We have mentioned this woman several times and now it
is time for us to talk about her to the
full extent. It's the dirty duchess, or is it you
call that Margaret.

Speaker 3 (09:27):
Ar Margaret Argyle?

Speaker 1 (09:29):
So she Margaret Wigham. So we're quite sharp ass, Canpbell's
you see margre see what we did that? Yeah, she's
called Markov I.

Speaker 3 (09:36):
Think that was her nickname in the press after when
the divorces.

Speaker 2 (09:39):
Were going on, Margie Vargi. So let's let's get right
back to her. Let's put her into context.

Speaker 1 (09:46):
It's your My husband's grandfather husband was married four times,
right remember in the war now, so we're in the
Second World War, so things are pretty chaotic obviously. So
he's married first of all to a beaver Brook and
they in the Daily Express, and then that didn't work out,
and then he got married again to my husband's grandmother
called Louise Clues, and she was an American and her

(10:10):
family set up one people who sat at Wall Street.
The Americans were busy sending over their very rich, beautiful
daughters to get married. It's quite because like the Marlboroughs,
which called Vanderbilt, they did it.

Speaker 3 (10:21):
All these big families did it.

Speaker 2 (10:22):
Great grandfather had quite a good time.

Speaker 1 (10:24):
Yes, so you basically married someone for their money, and
they married for the title, and it was tic tic
But of course, in real life, that's never going to
be a great marriage, is it.

Speaker 2 (10:33):
I mean, it's advise anyone to marry, you know.

Speaker 1 (10:38):
So the second wife that didn't work out, and then
he got captured. He was a prisoner of war for
quite a long time, and he came out of the
war and he was apparently six stone and very damaged,
and he then married.

Speaker 2 (10:52):
Margo varg.

Speaker 1 (10:54):
She's got Margaret Wigham at six stone. Yeah, so I
think think he was hopefully putting on a way, but
he was really damaged. And he was an alcoholic allegedly
before the war. So to go into the war and
then be treated presumably not very well and then come
out and PTSD, who knows, isn't it that didn't really

(11:15):
exist in those days, did it?

Speaker 3 (11:16):
Extraordinarily? It wasn't really nice, was it. Yeah?

Speaker 1 (11:22):
And if you you're feeble, weren't you terrified?

Speaker 2 (11:26):
Just man up?

Speaker 1 (11:28):
Watched all your friends being blown up and awful anyway,
So I think he came out very damaged anyway. And
then he married this woman for her money, and she
married for the title.

Speaker 3 (11:37):
And I've read all the letters. So I have got
the letters. I have read them.

Speaker 1 (11:40):
I think they were genuinely I think they really did
love each other to start off with. But I think
they were completely different.

Speaker 2 (11:47):
What sort of something they talk about in the letters?

Speaker 1 (11:49):
So the letter I found the letters in lockdown, So
no one's got the letters I have.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
Oh that's a lovely find in lockdown.

Speaker 3 (11:55):
That was my exciting job.

Speaker 2 (11:56):
So I am talk us through the letters please.

Speaker 1 (11:59):
Well it was so I was reading when Britain was
shutting down, so I was reading these same letters. So
it said things like, you know, London's completely emptied because
the war had broken out, said, London's completely empty. There's
no one around. If you're lucky enough to have another
house or friends in the country, you've gone. And and
that's exactly what London was doing as well. So London,
lots of parts of London were just empty. If you

(12:19):
were lucky enough exactly to have a relation or someone
who lived in the country, you took it, didn't you.
Because no one really knew what was going to happen.
And you know, there are all those rumors that the
tanks were moving in to Clapham, and you know everyone
was panicking because no one knew, did they And these
letters were really similar, interesting, yeah, written from Mark varg
to my husband's grandfather back and just also saying this,
you know, it's really weird. Everyone's just gone a bit

(12:41):
mad and the streets are empty. He said, I'm sitting
in my club and I'm the only person here and
everyone's panicking. They got married and and then I think
it all started to go pershit because I think he
was an alcoholic.

Speaker 2 (12:55):
And yeah, and she'd.

Speaker 1 (12:58):
Also fallen down a lift shaft and was quite damaged herself.
So apparently she walked into a left and there wasn't
a left and she fell all the way down and
was amazing that she lived. But I think apparently after
then she wasn't as normal as she had been before.
You know, she wasn't as the same character she had.

Speaker 2 (13:13):
Been for a fly on the wall. For some of
their their pillow talk.

Speaker 1 (13:17):
Conversations, passionate, I think, but not necessarily always in the
right way. I think there was really, you know, lots
of pet arguments.

Speaker 3 (13:25):
And she had money.

Speaker 1 (13:26):
He had the title blah blah, and he wanted the
money spent on in Verira, the house we live in Scotland,
and maybe she wanted something a bit more different.

Speaker 2 (13:34):
Yeah, yeah, so, but they were living in in mare Ara, yes,
and this is when the scandals started happening. In the
talking through the scandals and then tell us how.

Speaker 1 (13:44):
Well this is again only based on the press. Oh,
I think the scandals were you know, she was known
for having affairs, and he also wanted to get rid
of her, I think ultimately, and they were, you know,
when they wanted to get divorced. I think they were
busy trying each other, as you know, as many tricks
as they could to get out of it.

Speaker 2 (14:01):
Talk us through some of the affairs she's alleged to
have had.

Speaker 1 (14:04):
So the main one that was in the court case
was called the headless Man scandal, and it was a
photograph of polaroid and apparently only the British government had
access to polaroids in those days, or I don't know
if it was a pop it's like an equivalent of polaroid.

Speaker 3 (14:17):
And it's a picture.

Speaker 1 (14:18):
Of her on her knees and there's a man who's
standing up and the man's head has been cut off
in the picture. So it's called the headless man scandal.
So and even by our quite unshockable pictures. I've seen
the picture, isn't it? And even now you don't expect
that picture to come out in public ever. I mean,
that's it. It's sex shame because it's just you would.

Speaker 3 (14:38):
Now, Oh yeah, revenge exactly, That's what it was. That's
basically what it was.

Speaker 2 (14:43):
Wow, how graphic is it? Do you mind me saying?

Speaker 3 (14:45):
Is it's pretty graphic?

Speaker 2 (14:46):
Can you see it? Is it from behind her head?

Speaker 3 (14:50):
Or I think it's sideways from what I can remember.

Speaker 1 (14:52):
No, it's pretty graphic. And then she had to prove
it wasn't him in the picture because because this was
used in the divorce case, so he's got.

Speaker 2 (14:59):
To them prove.

Speaker 3 (15:00):
Apparently it looks got to whatever.

Speaker 1 (15:06):
I don't know, but yeah, apparently you know. I'm not
asking to you, but I think it was the thing
it was he had a scar.

Speaker 2 (15:11):
Or do you mind just swinging your balls a bit? No, No,
they're way too low hanging.

Speaker 3 (15:14):
Well.

Speaker 1 (15:14):
I think if you look at the very British scandal
on the Telly, you know income of the doctors, but
the actual this was all based on the newspaper cuttings
that the very British scandal was.

Speaker 2 (15:25):
I'm not saying the fact that polaroid was taken means
there's a third person in the room.

Speaker 1 (15:31):
Exactly in the cupboard, in the in the cupboards, taking
a picture in the well. This is what I understood
that he was in the cupboard taking the picture.

Speaker 2 (15:37):
Oh right, so you think he's secretly taking the picture.

Speaker 3 (15:42):
No, no, no, he's not. He's not in the Are we
sure about that? Yes, because he's.

Speaker 1 (15:45):
Hired by Tolkal's grandfather to prove that his wife is
committing adultery.

Speaker 2 (15:52):
Has just been hiding in the cupboard for hours and
hours waiting for hopefully her to yes, do something sexual, okay, okay.

Speaker 1 (16:00):
Alleged anyway, so they it was then all used in
court and it was you know, no one has seen
pictures like that, even you know, we were saying, by
our standards, you don't generally see pictures like that in public.
But this was used in court to prove that she
had been committing adultally so they could get TOWSD.

Speaker 2 (16:15):
And I guess it's I mean, she.

Speaker 1 (16:17):
Had given loads of money to him, which he'd spent.
The whole thing was you know, it was it was
pretty toxic. The whole thing was very toxic. They were
very toxic couple by the end of thing. So the

(16:38):
headless Man.

Speaker 3 (16:38):
No one knows who the headless man was.

Speaker 1 (16:40):
That's always been Apparently he was very famous, but no
one knows who he was.

Speaker 2 (16:44):
He was getting head in one surely, I'm sorry.

Speaker 1 (16:51):
I'm sorry Errol Flynn apparently, but I don't think in
those days they knew that Eryl Flynn. I think it
was gay, but I think then it was apparently Eryl's Lynn,
or Douglas Fairbanks junior, who was in the government, or
the head of PanAm apparently was. People thought it might
be most and it could have been. She had all
these amazing famous friends and all sorts of people like,
oh it could have been him, could have been him.

Speaker 2 (17:12):
If you were a betting woman, who would you guess?

Speaker 1 (17:14):
Well, apparently the latest one was the PanAm or American
Airlines or whatever.

Speaker 3 (17:17):
But I mean no one, literally no one knows.

Speaker 1 (17:19):
People have come up to us all the saying, oh,
it was my grandfather, it was my great grand coming
up and then we get let's say, I know who
it was, but no one. It's never come out who
it was.

Speaker 2 (17:29):
And she was found guilty. Obviously.

Speaker 3 (17:33):
She lost, Yes, she lost the court case.

Speaker 2 (17:35):
What then happens to her?

Speaker 1 (17:37):
She then moved to London. She is the grandmother of
the Rutlands. So her daughter, who was called Francis Sweeney,
I think, then married to Duke of Rutland. So she's
still moving in quite big circles. And I think people
you know she was. She lived in the groven House
hotel and she was very popular.

Speaker 2 (17:56):
She was a lot of the guys were like a
little bit and I.

Speaker 1 (17:59):
Think she was meant. She was stunningly beautiful. Yeah, one
of those people I think had real presence. She'd walked
through him and she had amazing clothes.

Speaker 2 (18:07):
So she ended up sitting out the rest of her
days in a hotel down in London.

Speaker 1 (18:11):
She lived in a hotel and then she went in
the nursing home. So she didn't have any money. She
finished all her money. I think that all went, yes,
But she was, you know, she had a big following.
I think she was a real character. I don't know
if she was nice or not, but she was a
real character.

Speaker 2 (18:25):
How does your husband feel about the whole thing?

Speaker 1 (18:27):
So Talker's grandfather died in nineteen seventy three, right, okay,
So talk was like four or five or something, So
that's one of the reasons we agreed to do the filming.
So before, when Talker's father was alive, the whole topic
was banned. We weren't a loud to talk about it
because he was so caught up in it because he
was a child in it, and obviously quite damaged Vidal

(18:49):
because it was just so awful. But when it came
to me and talk call, actually there's no one, there's
no one left who's really involved in it.

Speaker 3 (18:58):
And she was. She did amaze in things to the castle.

Speaker 1 (19:00):
She put in plumbing and she put an electricity, and
she she did amazing things. I don't think she was
very good for the family, but for the house she was.
She was very good, and she was very popular.

Speaker 2 (19:10):
And also I think it's actually something about having the
story out there a bit better because she's not an
evil person in this story. She was just a really bad,
bad combination exactly. But you know, he wouldn't have been easy.
She wasn't easy, So yeah, you're not really slandering her,
you're actually trying to sort of well. And also the
painters more of a human And the.

Speaker 1 (19:27):
Filming was I think very fairly done. No one came
across better or worse, and the fact they filmed it
in the castle, which meant we could keep it for
a bit longer for you know, people to come look at.

Speaker 3 (19:37):
Absolutely, that's great.

Speaker 2 (19:39):
Did you all as a family sit down to watch it?

Speaker 1 (19:41):
Yes, you did, But Charlotte's actually my daughter was quite
young then, so when it came out about two years ago,
did and so she's she was twelve then, so she
didn't really understand a lot of you know, the linen
cupboard scenes.

Speaker 3 (19:52):
She was like, what on earth they're doing there?

Speaker 1 (19:53):
Anyway, it was quick, she said, Mummy, you'd be so
cross someone did that in your cupboard?

Speaker 3 (19:58):
Were quiet, right, I'm roaring my nice yard pin cases.

Speaker 2 (20:04):
Were there any surprises while watching it? Oh? I didn't
expect that to be in No.

Speaker 1 (20:08):
We were just very pleased that the kilt was looking
so nice, that our friends kilt looked so splendid.

Speaker 2 (20:14):
Who is this friend?

Speaker 3 (20:15):
Lad and lovely?

Speaker 2 (20:20):
And yes, okay, if you ever need a kilt come
to my shop, I'll come to do it. Yeah, email
emails bad Manners d MS on Instagram and then we'll
put you in touch with Anne, the lovely kilt lady.
In hindsight, we probably should have worked out some kind
of paid partnership deal with and the Lovely Kilt Lady.
And if you're listening and you're now a millionaire, remember

(20:42):
your old pal Tom. Yeah, that's it for this episode.
I'm off to tober Maury Bay to find a galleon.
Wish me luck until next time, avoid the lightning, destroy
your polaroids, and mind your manners. Thanks for listening to
Bad Manners. If you like the pod, please share it
with your friends, rate it on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify,

(21:05):
or wherever you get your podcasts. Leave a review and
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This podcast was produced by Atamei Studios for iHeartRadio. It
was hosted by me Tom Horton. It was produced by
Willem Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport, and Chris Ataway. It was executive

(21:26):
produced by Face Steur and Zad