February 26, 2024 • 27 mins
What do the Holy Grail, The Knights Templar and aliens all have in common? Answer? They all may be connected with Rosslyn Chapel, a fifteenth century chapel just down the road from Edinburgh. Among other things, it's famous for appearing in the best selling book The Da Vinci Code. Here to help me unpick the mysteries is Chapel Director Ian Gardner.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
What do the Holy Grail, Knights, Templar and aliens all
have in common? Answer? They all may be connected with
Roslin Chapel, our fifteenth century chapel just down the road
from Edinburgh. Among other things, it's famous for appearing in
the best selling book The Da Vinci Code. Here to
help me unpick the mysteries is Chapel Director Ian Gardner.
(00:30):
Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Ian,
I think we should start by you just contextualizing yourself
as far as the chapel and how you fit in
with everything.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, thank you for inviting me on. My name is Ian.
Roslin Chapel has been here since fourteen forty six. The
building is still owned by the Sinclair family, but in
nineteen ninety five they set up a charitable trust to
look after the building, to look after its conservation and
organize its public opening. So there's a team of nineteen
ten of us. I hid up the trust so we
(01:02):
look after the building and open it to visitors.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Official title Chapel Director.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That's right, Director of Roslyn Chapel Trust.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I've never spoken to a chapel director before. I'm feeling
very very privileged because the place is amazing. Just doing
my small research, you have got everything in this chapel.
There is historic nights, there's aliens. That's the first one
I want to get on too. We haven't actually talked
about aliens on the podcast before. And this chapel is
essentially what people think is a stargate to another world,
(01:32):
another dimension, please tell business.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Some people do, and I think that is part of
the fact that the building has captured the imaginations of
people for generations. So some people attribute all kinds of
things to the building. We don't think that it is
a portal to another world, but some people do.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well, that's disappointing starts off.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But for some people they do, and that's absolutely fine.
So I think one of the great things about the
chapel is that there are so many ways to interpret
the building. It's full of medieval stone carvings. We don't
have the definitive plan of what each of these means,
so it's really down to visitors to draw their own
conclusions about what carvings depict and even why the building
(02:17):
is is here. It was built as a family church
back in the mid fifteenth century, but it's incredibly ornate,
so there's speculation that it was built really as a
status symbol because the Sinclayers were wealthy and powerful and
well educated. Other people will say, no, it was built
to house treasures, to be a safe deposit for treasures,
(02:40):
so and that's why it was so ornate. So even
when you look at the building and why it was
here their speculation, one thing we do think is that
it was built high on a hill so that people
could look at the building, admire it and be in
awe of Sir William Sinclair of his ability to create
this chapel. The family lived in a castle which is
(03:02):
about The ruins of the castle are about ten minutes
walk from here, so they could have had their chapel
at the side of the castle, but actually then no
one would have seen it, and so by having it
built high on a hill, it meant that people would
be able to see it to be in awe of
the family and of what they could achieve. And the
building was never finished, so William wanted to have a
(03:25):
much bigger building, but when he died, his son who
inherited it, just finished off the part that had been created.
So we've only got a portion of what his vision was.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
What could have been so fifteenth century peacocking is what
they say when you're trying to pick up girls in clubs,
you wear like really flashy hats or like flashy shirts
to sort of go, hey, look how good I am. Peacocking.
So this is him just doing peacocking, but just with
a chapel.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think it is he wanted to secure his place
in heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's interesting you're saying about securious place in heaven, as
if God is looking down on the people with all
their chapels and what they've done to him. Because there's
some people who would go, now, what God would wants
us to do would be very minimalist and just to
sort of small, humble prayer room, or some people then going, now,
what God really wants is some proper big old statues
and stained glass windows and ornate carvings. At what points
(04:17):
in history did people change their mind and what God
was actually wanting them to do?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Well, I think it's always been open to interpretation. Again,
so from very humble churches to very large cathedrals. People
have built churches to kind of suit there at different
times of history. What's interesting here, I suppose one of
the perks of my job is to occasionally get up
on the roof and see parts of the building that
(04:41):
other visitors don't, And you see carvings up there which
no one else can see. They're kind of tucked away
on the roof of the building, but they're there because
God presumably could see them, and that was all part
of Sir William's his vision to have this building more
elaborate than anybody else's.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Obviously, either God seeing them or possibly the aliens seeing
them from out of space is the other angle you
could take.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
There, all open to interpretation.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
What sort of carvings are these things? Were we talking?
Are there little green men walking around?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
There?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Are?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
There are green men, but of a kind of different
green maine, so they medieval green maine. Are not the
tree bloke, These are the tree guy. These are faces
with leaves and vines coming out of them. So we
do have our own green maine. And it's not unusual
tentacles churches of this siege have green maine faces. We
(05:41):
have over a hundred of them, so it's very unusual
to have so many. But yeah, we do have our
own green main but not not of an alien kind.
And people have said that, you know, there's so many
things buried underneath the chapel, and in fact, anything you've
ever lost might well be buried underneath the chapel. And
I think that's where the kind of alien dimension comes in.
(06:04):
The portal to another world.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Or just a bunch of TV remote controls and the
back of couches. All these carvings and various the artistry
does mean that people do believe in this sort of stuff,
and so you must get lots of interesting characters turning
up at the chapel wanting to do all sorts of
(06:26):
various things over the years. Can you give me sort
of a few stories of some of the various people
who have cropped up.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, we get a great mix of people. And before
the pandemic we were welcoming about one hundred and eighty
thousand people a year, so it's a busy spot.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
People come for all different reasons. We had somebody back
in the midst of time who believed that the Holy
Griel was hidden in one of the pillars of the chapel,
so he chained himself to the pillar and the staff
locked the doors, and I think that was more skeay
for him than anything.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, they just let him stay in there over the evening.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I think eventually the police are ruding. But yes,
we get people coming up with all kinds of beliefs.
The chapel is still a working church. It's part of
the Scottish Episcopal Church. It is still a place of worship.
It is still used as a church. But people come
really for all kinds of reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Hopefully at different times. Is there a particular part of
the chapel that people think might be the Star Game?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
People think that they're still called Lee lines Energy lines.
People think that that are parts of the building where
you can feel different types of energy. But again it's
all down to individuals.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
We've been on a ghost hunt on this podcast before
and the word there's an energy gets brought up quite
a lot, quite a vague term scientifically, Isn't it just
oh no, there's just a feeling over in this corridor
that there might be something extra.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think it is and I think it is just
a feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Let's talk about the carvings then, and who actually did
the carvings? Who's responsible for that?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So the building was founded by Sir Williamson clear The
Sinclair's were Viking family by origin. They traveled over to
Normandy and they came to Scotland in the year ten seventies.
So Sir Williamson Clear who was the member of the
family in the mid fifteenth century, he created the chapel
(08:29):
and we think he was very influential. He was almost
the architect, working with the master mason to decide which
carvings were created and where they would go.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
This is the master mason who got a bit jelly
by the end of it with one of his apprentices.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well there's a legend. Yeah, there's a great legend. There
are three pillars leading into the Lady Chapel.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What's the lady chapel?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Well, in the medieval Catholic church, that would have been
the part dedicated to Mary. One of the carving one
of the pillars was carved by the master mason, and
the one nearest the high altar, which would have been
the kind of prime location. He couldn't decide what to
do with that one. So he was allowed by the
family to go and travel to see what other churches
(09:16):
and cathedrals had in Europe. And legend is that off
he went to find out. Nobody knew if he would
come back or not. And while he was away, his
apprentice was said to have had a vision, and in
his dream he saw this pillar with vines swirling round
it and dragons at the base of it. And the
(09:37):
family thought that that looks that looks great, and so
he was allowed to create this pillar. And when the
master mason did come back, the legend is that rather
than being proud of what his apprentice had done, he
was said to be furious, and he was said to
have struck him with a mallet and kill them on
the spot, And then the master mason was said to
(09:58):
have been put to death for murder. He would think
he would have been proud that his his teaching had
produced this work of art, but the legend is that
he flew into a rage and killed his apprentice. He
was ready to come back and create his pillar. He
was coming back, ready to do it, and found that
(10:23):
it had already been done.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So he decided to turn the apprentice mason into a
pillar himself and carved him.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Up exactly exactly, And.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Again, did you do it with a chisel? We think
it's probably a mallet, much much much nicer.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
There's a number of cathedrals and churches that have got
this kind of legend, but we do know that at
the time the Archbishop of Saint Andrew's was given people
authority to reconsecrate part of the chapel because of bloodshed.
So maybe there is some truth in that story of
the murdered apprentice. We don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I'm worried. Do you have an apprentice under you? I'm
imagining you as the chapel director going abroad for holiday
or something, and whatever your equivalent of a pillar is,
and then some person in the cast has just come
and done your job better, and then you just bludge
them to death. I don't know, just to keep the
traditions of the chapel going.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's a very risky place to work.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
All the mallets and all the carvings made from plastic
cutloring just a safeguard everything. There's also a conspiracy theory
that all these carvings make up a musical score.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah. There was a local father and son, the Mitchells,
Tommy and Stuart Mitchell, who came up with a theory
about a state of carvings in the Lady Chapel. We
were just talking about that where the apprentice pillar is
and in that part of the chapel there's a whole
(11:53):
series of musical angels. There's carvings of angels playing different
instruments because we're in Scotland, there's a carving of an
angel playing bagpipes, and through a process known as cimatics,
they developed a musical score which was based on the
(12:14):
notes that they deciphered from these cubes, and they produced
a piece of music called the Roslin Mote. It it's
been performed here, it's available as a CD, it's been
featured on various TV programs. Now, whether that was part
of the plan or whether it's a coincidence, again, we
don't know, but it's it's a great piece of music.
(12:35):
That's something that they've deciphered as the Roslin note.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Well, even if that isn't true that the it was
meant to be a musical score, the fact that they
have made a musical score out of it is sort
of good enough anyway. That's that's wonderful in itself.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, definitely, I think it is. And you know, it's
been performed here, and people really like the story that
the research that's gone into it, the a huge amount
of work they put into it. So yes, it is
a great story and a great tribute to them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The other big thing the chapel's got going on is,
of course the Knights, Templar and the Holy Grail. Now,
last time I did my research, I was pretty sure
that the Holy Grail was dissolving Nazis in a temple
with Indiana Jones. But there is also a conspiracy that
it's in the chapel somewhere.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
There's lots of different theories about what the Holy Grail is,
and a lot of people connect the Holy Grail to
Roslyn Chapel because of an author called Dan Brown. He
wrote The da Vinci Court and at the ag I'm
not going to give it away if you've not read
it or seen the film, but at the end, the
characters come to Roslin Chapel as they're on their search
(13:56):
for the Grail, and after they came here where thousands
more people came to visit the chapel as a result,
But as far as we know, nobody's been able to
find it yet. Walter Scott wrote about the chapel and
he talked about the Barons of Roslin being laid out
on their armor. So we think that there are former
Sinclair Knights buried underneath the chapel. We think that in
(14:20):
the sixteenth century the Sinclair's looked after treasures which were
taken from Holyrood in Edinburgh. They were kept here for safekeeping.
Nobody knows if they came here or indeed if they
were returned, so there might still be treasures of a
different kind buried underneath the chapel. And we know that
in the sixteenth century Mariya of Geese wrote to the
(14:43):
family thanking them for showing her and sharing with her
the secrets of Roslin, but we don't know what they were.
But for someone as significant as that, it's great that
we've got that letter from her.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Could we just explain to any listeners who don't know
what exactly is the Holy Grail and who exactly are
the Knights Templar.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
One of the theories there's the Holy Grail is the
cup that was used by Jesus at the Last Supper.
There are other theories that it was the actually the
bloodline of Christ. That's part of the story that was
developed in the Da Vinci Code. But I think most
people most sort of artistic impressions are of a cup
or a goblet of some.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Kind, and the Knights Templar.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Well, they were the ones who protected the temple of Solomon,
and they became incredibly powerful and wealthy, and almost two
powerful and wealthy. So they were dissolved in the early
fourteenth century by the King of France. Scotland at that
(15:52):
time had been excommunicated by the Pope, so Scotland was
seen as a kind of safe destinations. So we think
that some of the Templars did come to Scotland. There's
a village not far from here which is known as
Temple and that was the Scottish headquarters of the Templars. So,
(16:12):
and that there are various carvings inside the chapel which
could have connections. They could have meaning an interpretation to
Nights Templar.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I heard they had massive beads and then when they
got found out, they'd shave them off and go into
sort of hiding.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Sounds good disguise, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
It's not bad, It's not bad. How do they manage
to get so powerful, these nights Templar well by going
around taking over places?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, I think so, I think so. Yeah, And they
looked after this route to Solomon's temple, and you know,
for lots of pilgrims. That was a very important route
for them, and the templars where they became money lenders.
So yeah, they became incredibly rich in power, and that
(17:00):
was really their downfall.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
What's so good about Solomon's Temple? Why do they love
it so much?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Then? The Bible, the Temple of Solomon is is the
kind of the place where the arc of the Covenant
and all sorts of treasures would have been kept.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Because there's lots of treasure in there exactly. The Night
Sempler are quite often portrayed as villainous more than good though,
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah? I think so. I think there's so much interest
in the Templars. I think there their basic premise was
was based on good. They were trying to look after
this place and provide a safe passage for people going there.
But I think I think just then they became victims
of their own success and and as I say, became
(17:49):
incredibly rich and powerful and became a threat to the
establishment in other countries.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
If you were to pick between one of the conspiracies
being true, Holy Grail or Aliens, which one would you pick?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think there's probably more to the Holy Grail and treasures.
I think the fact that we've got letters from people,
very significant people acknowledging that they've been shown secrets, so
I you know, it may well be that there are
treasures you have.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
You have as as as the kids would say, you
have the receipts of people.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You have some. And but again just just kind of
without going into detail, which I think is good that
we've got something that kind of sparks your imagination without
telling you exactly what it was they saw.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
You've got the Aliens, you've got the Covenant, and you've
got the Holy Grail. This is literally films one to
four of Indiana Jones. You should do like a midnight
screening of the Indiana Jones.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
But we've done outdoor screenings of the Da Vinci Code.
Now our connections more to the Da Vinci Code rather
than the Indiana Jones. But we do have carvings of
what's been described as may So exotic plants. There's carvings
that are said to be cactus and aluvira and a
plant that's known in Canada called trillium. These are all
(19:22):
here in the chapel, and the one that's said to
be May's is particularly interesting because of course May's wasn't
known in these rural parts of Scotland in the time
when the chapel was built. It was said to have
been part of what Columbus discovered in America in fourteen
ninety two, which was after the building of the chapel
(19:42):
had been completed. So there's a theory that the founder
of the chapel, his grandfather, had actually traveled to the
New World, had seen different plants, different things, come back
and share these stories with his grandson and then they
were incorporated into the carvings of the chapel. So it's
another mystery. It's another sort of point of speculation. Are
(20:05):
these carvings what they say they are or another interpretation?
And if they are, how could they be here when
they weren't known in this part of Scotland at that time.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Obviously there's a massive connection towards the Da Vinci carriage.
As you said, were you aware that the books were
about to come out or the film was about to
be released? Firstly, like what was it like if they
actually filmed in the chapel with Tom Hanks hanging around?
And then what was the explosion of interest, Like.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, we knew that the film was going to be
made here. We didn't know about the book, and one
of one of the members of staff who worked here
at the time had been in America on holiday and
picked up this book in the airport. The book called
The Da Vinci Code. Think it would be a good
read on the flight home, and got towards the end
(20:57):
and found that the characters came to Roslin Chapel. So
that was the kind of first that we knew about it.
So when the before the Boot came out, we were
welcoming maybe about thirty thousand visitors every year. When the
Boot came out, the numbers went up to about seventy thousand,
so it had a huge impact. But then in two
(21:18):
thousand and five Tom Hanks came to visit and the
filming was done, and in two thousand and six the
film came out and at the peak numbers went up
to one hundred and seventy six thousand a year.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Wow, Christ, that's way more, huge, huge impact, I bet,
because also I think the energy of the type of
person visiting would have been different. I imagine when it
was thirty thousand, they'd have been sort of quite quaint
and looking at the nice architecture and the beauty, and
then sudden it's one hundred and seventy Dan Brown fanatics. Yeah,
I think exactly, and then going absolutely insane and all
(21:52):
with their maps and goggles.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And yeah, everyone trying to work out these these puzzles
and mysteries.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Are there any parts of the chapel or carvings or
secret scribbles that are off limits to the tourists or
people don't say or people don't know about. Just whisper
it to me, and then I don't know what I'm whispering.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Whispering nobody here. Rotherland Castle's nearby, and there's said to
be a secret passage between the chapel and the castle.
We've not really uncovered anything there.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Of course, if you did have any secrets, you obviously
wouldn't be letting us now anyway, would you.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
You've got to come and have a look. Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
What do you think that secret tunnel would have been
used for? If there is a secret tunnel.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Well, it might just have been for for safety if
people had been We know that the castle was attacked
several times, so it might have been away for the
family who were down there to escape. I don't think
it would have been really for any other reason other
than that kind of safe passage between one building and
(22:54):
the other.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, just a quick exit for the aliens once they've
come through the.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Sagates exactly or not, but possibly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on to the
podcast for the pleasure. I really want to come and
visit now, because.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah you must so. We're only seven miles from Edinburgh.
We're open all year. Come and visit and see for
yourself and make up your own mind about this amazing building.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I'm going to finish up with some quick fire questions.
Aside from rosen Chapel and Castle, where is your favorite
stately home or historical building.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I work for a long time for the National Trust
for Scotland. There's a very quirky place in the borders
called roberts Malls printing works of Victorian printing works, where
you almost stay back in time, and so if you've
never been there, I think that's well worth the visit.
It's not as famous as some but it's a really
fascinating place.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's cool. If you could go back in time to
any place in history, where would it be.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Well. I enjoyed doing Roman history a number of years ago,
So I think maybe going back to to visiting the
Romans would be interesting, but obviously here visiting when the
building was being created, when the castle was being lived in,
and the sort of great high life was.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Was eighteenth century enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, it'd be great to see that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Who from Roslin Chapel's history would you most like to
meet and why? And what would you ask them?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, I think it would probably have to be Sir
William Sinclair, the one who founded it, because if it
wasn't for him, you know, we wouldn't be welcoming thousands
of people just now. So I think finding out maybe
what he did mean by all these carvings would be good.
But then, you know, on the other hand, maybe it's
better that we don't know. If we knew all the answers,
we wouldn't be able to to speculate. But I think
(24:47):
it would be really interesting to meet him and get
his take on the building and his vision and to
find out I suppose it'd be interesting to find out
what he saw in the bit that was never created,
so that would have been in his mind, but nobody
else is because it was never completed.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And finally, why should people visit Roslyn Chapel.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, it's the real mix of amazing architecture, a huge history,
all these myths and legends and speculation, the fact that
it's been attracted Hollywood. There's lots to see, there's lots
to do while you're here, and that people come with
lots of questions about the chapel. But I think most
(25:36):
people actually go away with more questions than when they arrived.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Ian. Thank you so much for joining us on the
podcast and the excellent work you're doing at Roslyn Chapel.
I'm sure you've secured your own place in Heaven.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Thank you. We'll look forward to seeing you here sometimes.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Or up on Cloud nine, who knows.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Thanks very much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right, that's all we've got time for this week. I'm
off to the roof of the studio to make some carvings.
I've got to make sure the Bad Manner's crew make
it to Heaven. Well apart from producer Chris, he hasn't
even managed to make me a coffee. So until next time,
remember the truth is out there, so mind your manners.
Thanks for listening to Bad Manners. If you like the pod,
(26:19):
please share it with your friends. Rate it on the
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Leave a review and make sure you spill the tea
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feature in future episodes. This podcast was produced by Atamei
Studios for iHeartRadio. It was hosted by me Tom Horton.
(26:40):
It was produced by Willie Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport, and Chris Ataway.
It was executive produced by Face Steur and Zad Rogers.
Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator
is Bella Selini
What do the Holy Grail, Knights, Templar and aliens all
have in common? Answer? They all may be connected with
Roslin Chapel, our fifteenth century chapel just down the road
from Edinburgh. Among other things, it's famous for appearing in
the best selling book The Da Vinci Code. Here to
help me unpick the mysteries is Chapel Director Ian Gardner.
(00:30):
Thanks so much for joining us on the podcast. Ian,
I think we should start by you just contextualizing yourself
as far as the chapel and how you fit in
with everything.
Speaker 2 (00:40):
Well, thank you for inviting me on. My name is Ian.
Roslin Chapel has been here since fourteen forty six. The
building is still owned by the Sinclair family, but in
nineteen ninety five they set up a charitable trust to
look after the building, to look after its conservation and
organize its public opening. So there's a team of nineteen
ten of us. I hid up the trust so we
(01:02):
look after the building and open it to visitors.
Speaker 1 (01:04):
Official title Chapel Director.
Speaker 2 (01:07):
That's right, Director of Roslyn Chapel Trust.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
I've never spoken to a chapel director before. I'm feeling
very very privileged because the place is amazing. Just doing
my small research, you have got everything in this chapel.
There is historic nights, there's aliens. That's the first one
I want to get on too. We haven't actually talked
about aliens on the podcast before. And this chapel is
essentially what people think is a stargate to another world,
(01:32):
another dimension, please tell business.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
Some people do, and I think that is part of
the fact that the building has captured the imaginations of
people for generations. So some people attribute all kinds of
things to the building. We don't think that it is
a portal to another world, but some people do.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Well, that's disappointing starts off.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
But for some people they do, and that's absolutely fine.
So I think one of the great things about the
chapel is that there are so many ways to interpret
the building. It's full of medieval stone carvings. We don't
have the definitive plan of what each of these means,
so it's really down to visitors to draw their own
conclusions about what carvings depict and even why the building
(02:17):
is is here. It was built as a family church
back in the mid fifteenth century, but it's incredibly ornate,
so there's speculation that it was built really as a
status symbol because the Sinclayers were wealthy and powerful and
well educated. Other people will say, no, it was built
to house treasures, to be a safe deposit for treasures,
(02:40):
so and that's why it was so ornate. So even
when you look at the building and why it was
here their speculation, one thing we do think is that
it was built high on a hill so that people
could look at the building, admire it and be in
awe of Sir William Sinclair of his ability to create
this chapel. The family lived in a castle which is
(03:02):
about The ruins of the castle are about ten minutes
walk from here, so they could have had their chapel
at the side of the castle, but actually then no
one would have seen it, and so by having it
built high on a hill, it meant that people would
be able to see it to be in awe of
the family and of what they could achieve. And the
building was never finished, so William wanted to have a
(03:25):
much bigger building, but when he died, his son who
inherited it, just finished off the part that had been created.
So we've only got a portion of what his vision was.
Speaker 1 (03:37):
What could have been so fifteenth century peacocking is what
they say when you're trying to pick up girls in clubs,
you wear like really flashy hats or like flashy shirts
to sort of go, hey, look how good I am. Peacocking.
So this is him just doing peacocking, but just with
a chapel.
Speaker 2 (03:52):
I think it is he wanted to secure his place
in heaven.
Speaker 1 (03:54):
That's interesting you're saying about securious place in heaven, as
if God is looking down on the people with all
their chapels and what they've done to him. Because there's
some people who would go, now, what God would wants
us to do would be very minimalist and just to
sort of small, humble prayer room, or some people then going, now,
what God really wants is some proper big old statues
and stained glass windows and ornate carvings. At what points
(04:17):
in history did people change their mind and what God
was actually wanting them to do?
Speaker 2 (04:21):
Well, I think it's always been open to interpretation. Again,
so from very humble churches to very large cathedrals. People
have built churches to kind of suit there at different
times of history. What's interesting here, I suppose one of
the perks of my job is to occasionally get up
on the roof and see parts of the building that
(04:41):
other visitors don't, And you see carvings up there which
no one else can see. They're kind of tucked away
on the roof of the building, but they're there because
God presumably could see them, and that was all part
of Sir William's his vision to have this building more
elaborate than anybody else's.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
Obviously, either God seeing them or possibly the aliens seeing
them from out of space is the other angle you
could take.
Speaker 2 (05:10):
There, all open to interpretation.
Speaker 1 (05:12):
What sort of carvings are these things? Were we talking?
Are there little green men walking around?
Speaker 2 (05:17):
There?
Speaker 1 (05:17):
Are?
Speaker 2 (05:18):
There are green men, but of a kind of different
green maine, so they medieval green maine. Are not the
tree bloke, These are the tree guy. These are faces
with leaves and vines coming out of them. So we
do have our own green maine. And it's not unusual
tentacles churches of this siege have green maine faces. We
(05:41):
have over a hundred of them, so it's very unusual
to have so many. But yeah, we do have our
own green main but not not of an alien kind.
And people have said that, you know, there's so many
things buried underneath the chapel, and in fact, anything you've
ever lost might well be buried underneath the chapel. And
I think that's where the kind of alien dimension comes in.
(06:04):
The portal to another world.
Speaker 1 (06:06):
Or just a bunch of TV remote controls and the
back of couches. All these carvings and various the artistry
does mean that people do believe in this sort of stuff,
and so you must get lots of interesting characters turning
up at the chapel wanting to do all sorts of
(06:26):
various things over the years. Can you give me sort
of a few stories of some of the various people
who have cropped up.
Speaker 2 (06:34):
Yeah, we get a great mix of people. And before
the pandemic we were welcoming about one hundred and eighty
thousand people a year, so it's a busy spot.
Speaker 1 (06:41):
Wow.
Speaker 2 (06:42):
People come for all different reasons. We had somebody back
in the midst of time who believed that the Holy
Griel was hidden in one of the pillars of the chapel,
so he chained himself to the pillar and the staff
locked the doors, and I think that was more skeay
for him than anything.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Well, they just let him stay in there over the evening.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
And I think eventually the police are ruding. But yes,
we get people coming up with all kinds of beliefs.
The chapel is still a working church. It's part of
the Scottish Episcopal Church. It is still a place of worship.
It is still used as a church. But people come
really for all kinds of reasons.
Speaker 1 (07:20):
Hopefully at different times. Is there a particular part of
the chapel that people think might be the Star Game?
Speaker 2 (07:24):
People think that they're still called Lee lines Energy lines.
People think that that are parts of the building where
you can feel different types of energy. But again it's
all down to individuals.
Speaker 1 (07:37):
We've been on a ghost hunt on this podcast before
and the word there's an energy gets brought up quite
a lot, quite a vague term scientifically, Isn't it just
oh no, there's just a feeling over in this corridor
that there might be something extra.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
I think it is and I think it is just
a feeling.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Let's talk about the carvings then, and who actually did
the carvings? Who's responsible for that?
Speaker 2 (08:09):
So the building was founded by Sir Williamson clear The
Sinclair's were Viking family by origin. They traveled over to
Normandy and they came to Scotland in the year ten seventies.
So Sir Williamson Clear who was the member of the
family in the mid fifteenth century, he created the chapel
(08:29):
and we think he was very influential. He was almost
the architect, working with the master mason to decide which
carvings were created and where they would go.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
This is the master mason who got a bit jelly
by the end of it with one of his apprentices.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Well there's a legend. Yeah, there's a great legend. There
are three pillars leading into the Lady Chapel.
Speaker 1 (08:53):
What's the lady chapel?
Speaker 2 (08:54):
Well, in the medieval Catholic church, that would have been
the part dedicated to Mary. One of the carving one
of the pillars was carved by the master mason, and
the one nearest the high altar, which would have been
the kind of prime location. He couldn't decide what to
do with that one. So he was allowed by the
family to go and travel to see what other churches
(09:16):
and cathedrals had in Europe. And legend is that off
he went to find out. Nobody knew if he would
come back or not. And while he was away, his
apprentice was said to have had a vision, and in
his dream he saw this pillar with vines swirling round
it and dragons at the base of it. And the
(09:37):
family thought that that looks that looks great, and so
he was allowed to create this pillar. And when the
master mason did come back, the legend is that rather
than being proud of what his apprentice had done, he
was said to be furious, and he was said to
have struck him with a mallet and kill them on
the spot, And then the master mason was said to
(09:58):
have been put to death for murder. He would think
he would have been proud that his his teaching had
produced this work of art, but the legend is that
he flew into a rage and killed his apprentice. He
was ready to come back and create his pillar. He
was coming back, ready to do it, and found that
(10:23):
it had already been done.
Speaker 1 (10:25):
So he decided to turn the apprentice mason into a
pillar himself and carved him.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
Up exactly exactly, And.
Speaker 1 (10:32):
Again, did you do it with a chisel? We think
it's probably a mallet, much much much nicer.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
There's a number of cathedrals and churches that have got
this kind of legend, but we do know that at
the time the Archbishop of Saint Andrew's was given people
authority to reconsecrate part of the chapel because of bloodshed.
So maybe there is some truth in that story of
the murdered apprentice. We don't know.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
I'm worried. Do you have an apprentice under you? I'm
imagining you as the chapel director going abroad for holiday
or something, and whatever your equivalent of a pillar is,
and then some person in the cast has just come
and done your job better, and then you just bludge
them to death. I don't know, just to keep the
traditions of the chapel going.
Speaker 2 (11:15):
It's a very risky place to work.
Speaker 1 (11:19):
All the mallets and all the carvings made from plastic
cutloring just a safeguard everything. There's also a conspiracy theory
that all these carvings make up a musical score.
Speaker 2 (11:33):
Yeah. There was a local father and son, the Mitchells,
Tommy and Stuart Mitchell, who came up with a theory
about a state of carvings in the Lady Chapel. We
were just talking about that where the apprentice pillar is
and in that part of the chapel there's a whole
(11:53):
series of musical angels. There's carvings of angels playing different
instruments because we're in Scotland, there's a carving of an
angel playing bagpipes, and through a process known as cimatics,
they developed a musical score which was based on the
(12:14):
notes that they deciphered from these cubes, and they produced
a piece of music called the Roslin Mote. It it's
been performed here, it's available as a CD, it's been
featured on various TV programs. Now, whether that was part
of the plan or whether it's a coincidence, again, we
don't know, but it's it's a great piece of music.
(12:35):
That's something that they've deciphered as the Roslin note.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Well, even if that isn't true that the it was
meant to be a musical score, the fact that they
have made a musical score out of it is sort
of good enough anyway. That's that's wonderful in itself.
Speaker 2 (12:49):
Yeah, definitely, I think it is. And you know, it's
been performed here, and people really like the story that
the research that's gone into it, the a huge amount
of work they put into it. So yes, it is
a great story and a great tribute to them.
Speaker 1 (13:14):
The other big thing the chapel's got going on is,
of course the Knights, Templar and the Holy Grail. Now,
last time I did my research, I was pretty sure
that the Holy Grail was dissolving Nazis in a temple
with Indiana Jones. But there is also a conspiracy that
it's in the chapel somewhere.
Speaker 2 (13:33):
There's lots of different theories about what the Holy Grail is,
and a lot of people connect the Holy Grail to
Roslyn Chapel because of an author called Dan Brown. He
wrote The da Vinci Court and at the ag I'm
not going to give it away if you've not read
it or seen the film, but at the end, the
characters come to Roslin Chapel as they're on their search
(13:56):
for the Grail, and after they came here where thousands
more people came to visit the chapel as a result,
But as far as we know, nobody's been able to
find it yet. Walter Scott wrote about the chapel and
he talked about the Barons of Roslin being laid out
on their armor. So we think that there are former
Sinclair Knights buried underneath the chapel. We think that in
(14:20):
the sixteenth century the Sinclair's looked after treasures which were
taken from Holyrood in Edinburgh. They were kept here for safekeeping.
Nobody knows if they came here or indeed if they
were returned, so there might still be treasures of a
different kind buried underneath the chapel. And we know that
in the sixteenth century Mariya of Geese wrote to the
(14:43):
family thanking them for showing her and sharing with her
the secrets of Roslin, but we don't know what they were.
But for someone as significant as that, it's great that
we've got that letter from her.
Speaker 1 (15:00):
Could we just explain to any listeners who don't know
what exactly is the Holy Grail and who exactly are
the Knights Templar.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
One of the theories there's the Holy Grail is the
cup that was used by Jesus at the Last Supper.
There are other theories that it was the actually the
bloodline of Christ. That's part of the story that was
developed in the Da Vinci Code. But I think most
people most sort of artistic impressions are of a cup
or a goblet of some.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Kind, and the Knights Templar.
Speaker 2 (15:31):
Well, they were the ones who protected the temple of Solomon,
and they became incredibly powerful and wealthy, and almost two
powerful and wealthy. So they were dissolved in the early
fourteenth century by the King of France. Scotland at that
(15:52):
time had been excommunicated by the Pope, so Scotland was
seen as a kind of safe destinations. So we think
that some of the Templars did come to Scotland. There's
a village not far from here which is known as
Temple and that was the Scottish headquarters of the Templars. So,
(16:12):
and that there are various carvings inside the chapel which
could have connections. They could have meaning an interpretation to
Nights Templar.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
I heard they had massive beads and then when they
got found out, they'd shave them off and go into
sort of hiding.
Speaker 2 (16:29):
Sounds good disguise, isn't it.
Speaker 1 (16:31):
It's not bad, It's not bad. How do they manage
to get so powerful, these nights Templar well by going
around taking over places?
Speaker 2 (16:39):
Yeah, I think so, I think so. Yeah, And they
looked after this route to Solomon's temple, and you know,
for lots of pilgrims. That was a very important route
for them, and the templars where they became money lenders.
So yeah, they became incredibly rich in power, and that
(17:00):
was really their downfall.
Speaker 1 (17:02):
What's so good about Solomon's Temple? Why do they love
it so much?
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Then? The Bible, the Temple of Solomon is is the
kind of the place where the arc of the Covenant
and all sorts of treasures would have been kept.
Speaker 1 (17:16):
Because there's lots of treasure in there exactly. The Night
Sempler are quite often portrayed as villainous more than good though,
Is that fair to say?
Speaker 2 (17:27):
Yeah? I think so. I think there's so much interest
in the Templars. I think there their basic premise was
was based on good. They were trying to look after
this place and provide a safe passage for people going there.
But I think I think just then they became victims
of their own success and and as I say, became
(17:49):
incredibly rich and powerful and became a threat to the
establishment in other countries.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
If you were to pick between one of the conspiracies
being true, Holy Grail or Aliens, which one would you pick?
Speaker 2 (18:14):
I think there's probably more to the Holy Grail and treasures.
I think the fact that we've got letters from people,
very significant people acknowledging that they've been shown secrets, so
I you know, it may well be that there are
treasures you have.
Speaker 1 (18:30):
You have as as as the kids would say, you
have the receipts of people.
Speaker 2 (18:35):
You have some. And but again just just kind of
without going into detail, which I think is good that
we've got something that kind of sparks your imagination without
telling you exactly what it was they saw.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
You've got the Aliens, you've got the Covenant, and you've
got the Holy Grail. This is literally films one to
four of Indiana Jones. You should do like a midnight
screening of the Indiana Jones.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
But we've done outdoor screenings of the Da Vinci Code.
Now our connections more to the Da Vinci Code rather
than the Indiana Jones. But we do have carvings of
what's been described as may So exotic plants. There's carvings
that are said to be cactus and aluvira and a
plant that's known in Canada called trillium. These are all
(19:22):
here in the chapel, and the one that's said to
be May's is particularly interesting because of course May's wasn't
known in these rural parts of Scotland in the time
when the chapel was built. It was said to have
been part of what Columbus discovered in America in fourteen
ninety two, which was after the building of the chapel
(19:42):
had been completed. So there's a theory that the founder
of the chapel, his grandfather, had actually traveled to the
New World, had seen different plants, different things, come back
and share these stories with his grandson and then they
were incorporated into the carvings of the chapel. So it's
another mystery. It's another sort of point of speculation. Are
(20:05):
these carvings what they say they are or another interpretation?
And if they are, how could they be here when
they weren't known in this part of Scotland at that time.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Obviously there's a massive connection towards the Da Vinci carriage.
As you said, were you aware that the books were
about to come out or the film was about to
be released? Firstly, like what was it like if they
actually filmed in the chapel with Tom Hanks hanging around?
And then what was the explosion of interest, Like.
Speaker 2 (20:36):
Well, we knew that the film was going to be
made here. We didn't know about the book, and one
of one of the members of staff who worked here
at the time had been in America on holiday and
picked up this book in the airport. The book called
The Da Vinci Code. Think it would be a good
read on the flight home, and got towards the end
(20:57):
and found that the characters came to Roslin Chapel. So
that was the kind of first that we knew about it.
So when the before the Boot came out, we were
welcoming maybe about thirty thousand visitors every year. When the
Boot came out, the numbers went up to about seventy thousand,
so it had a huge impact. But then in two
(21:18):
thousand and five Tom Hanks came to visit and the
filming was done, and in two thousand and six the
film came out and at the peak numbers went up
to one hundred and seventy six thousand a year.
Speaker 1 (21:31):
Wow, Christ, that's way more, huge, huge impact, I bet,
because also I think the energy of the type of
person visiting would have been different. I imagine when it
was thirty thousand, they'd have been sort of quite quaint
and looking at the nice architecture and the beauty, and
then sudden it's one hundred and seventy Dan Brown fanatics. Yeah,
I think exactly, and then going absolutely insane and all
(21:52):
with their maps and goggles.
Speaker 2 (21:54):
And yeah, everyone trying to work out these these puzzles
and mysteries.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Are there any parts of the chapel or carvings or
secret scribbles that are off limits to the tourists or
people don't say or people don't know about. Just whisper
it to me, and then I don't know what I'm whispering.
Speaker 2 (22:11):
Whispering nobody here. Rotherland Castle's nearby, and there's said to
be a secret passage between the chapel and the castle.
We've not really uncovered anything there.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Of course, if you did have any secrets, you obviously
wouldn't be letting us now anyway, would you.
Speaker 2 (22:25):
You've got to come and have a look. Yep.
Speaker 1 (22:29):
What do you think that secret tunnel would have been
used for? If there is a secret tunnel.
Speaker 2 (22:33):
Well, it might just have been for for safety if
people had been We know that the castle was attacked
several times, so it might have been away for the
family who were down there to escape. I don't think
it would have been really for any other reason other
than that kind of safe passage between one building and
(22:54):
the other.
Speaker 1 (22:54):
Yeah, just a quick exit for the aliens once they've
come through the.
Speaker 2 (22:57):
Sagates exactly or not, but possibly.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on to the
podcast for the pleasure. I really want to come and
visit now, because.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Yeah you must so. We're only seven miles from Edinburgh.
We're open all year. Come and visit and see for
yourself and make up your own mind about this amazing building.
Speaker 1 (23:21):
I'm going to finish up with some quick fire questions.
Aside from rosen Chapel and Castle, where is your favorite
stately home or historical building.
Speaker 2 (23:29):
I work for a long time for the National Trust
for Scotland. There's a very quirky place in the borders
called roberts Malls printing works of Victorian printing works, where
you almost stay back in time, and so if you've
never been there, I think that's well worth the visit.
It's not as famous as some but it's a really
fascinating place.
Speaker 1 (23:49):
That's cool. If you could go back in time to
any place in history, where would it be.
Speaker 2 (23:54):
Well. I enjoyed doing Roman history a number of years ago,
So I think maybe going back to to visiting the
Romans would be interesting, but obviously here visiting when the
building was being created, when the castle was being lived in,
and the sort of great high life was.
Speaker 1 (24:13):
Was eighteenth century enjoyed.
Speaker 2 (24:15):
Yeah, it'd be great to see that.
Speaker 1 (24:18):
Who from Roslin Chapel's history would you most like to
meet and why? And what would you ask them?
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Well, I think it would probably have to be Sir
William Sinclair, the one who founded it, because if it
wasn't for him, you know, we wouldn't be welcoming thousands
of people just now. So I think finding out maybe
what he did mean by all these carvings would be good.
But then, you know, on the other hand, maybe it's
better that we don't know. If we knew all the answers,
we wouldn't be able to to speculate. But I think
(24:47):
it would be really interesting to meet him and get
his take on the building and his vision and to
find out I suppose it'd be interesting to find out
what he saw in the bit that was never created,
so that would have been in his mind, but nobody
else is because it was never completed.
Speaker 1 (25:09):
And finally, why should people visit Roslyn Chapel.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Well, it's the real mix of amazing architecture, a huge history,
all these myths and legends and speculation, the fact that
it's been attracted Hollywood. There's lots to see, there's lots
to do while you're here, and that people come with
lots of questions about the chapel. But I think most
(25:36):
people actually go away with more questions than when they arrived.
Speaker 1 (25:41):
Ian. Thank you so much for joining us on the
podcast and the excellent work you're doing at Roslyn Chapel.
I'm sure you've secured your own place in Heaven.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Thank you. We'll look forward to seeing you here sometimes.
Speaker 1 (25:54):
Or up on Cloud nine, who knows.
Speaker 2 (25:57):
Thanks very much. Thank you.
Speaker 1 (25:58):
Right, that's all we've got time for this week. I'm
off to the roof of the studio to make some carvings.
I've got to make sure the Bad Manner's crew make
it to Heaven. Well apart from producer Chris, he hasn't
even managed to make me a coffee. So until next time,
remember the truth is out there, so mind your manners.
Thanks for listening to Bad Manners. If you like the pod,
(26:19):
please share it with your friends. Rate it on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Leave a review and make sure you spill the tea
on any of your favorite bad manners that we could
feature in future episodes. This podcast was produced by Atamei
Studios for iHeartRadio. It was hosted by me Tom Horton.
(26:40):
It was produced by Willie Lensky, Rebecca Rappaport, and Chris Ataway.
It was executive produced by Face Steur and Zad Rogers.
Our production manager is Caitlin Paramore and our production coordinator
is Bella Selini
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