May 30, 2023 • 35 mins
Author Ben Thompson and Professor of History Dr. Pat Larash discuss one of the most famous explorers in history, Marco Polo, who traveled to the edges of the earth and brought back amazing stories of unbelievable lands that inspired all of Europe to seek out trade, exploration, and travel for the decades to come. But his story begins with the travels of his father and his uncle -- two Venetian traders who left home in search of treasure, and ended up in the middle of Byzantine politics, a Mongol civil war, and even into the court of the Emperor of China himself.
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. It's twelve sixty eight. Venice is teeming
with crowds sailors and traders moving off and on ships
unloading goods to be traded and sold across the world.
(00:22):
At the edge of one of these docks stands an
orphan fifteen year old boy. He's watching the ships come
in and out as he does every day, wishing for
something more from his life. It wouldn't be long before
Moore arrived in the form of a mysterious man knocking
on his door. It's the boy's father. He tells him
(00:43):
that he's returned from the palace of the Emperor of China,
where he met the Mongol Khan and received a letter
to deliver directly to the Pope. After he delivers this letter,
he's going back. He asks the boy a question, do
you want to going in an adventure? Have you ever
wished for something more? Bet?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Hey, Ben, do you have bad ass to tell me about?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, one thing I do want to talk about today
is that I'm gonna be traveling soon. Yeah, exactly where
you traveling too. I Am going to Brazil, my my
wife and her family are from Brazil, and I'm going
to be going back for a couple of months to
stay there. You know, I get thinking about airline travel. Yeah,
and one thing with airline travel is you're just like,
it's just it's brutal right, It's just it's so hard.
(01:40):
You're sitting there at the at the terminal. You've got
like your brown bag with like McDonald's French fries that
you're jamming into your mouth. Everybody's unhappy. You gotta wait
in the TSA lines. Yeah, there's crying babies and and
you know this, all the people working at the counter
are mad at you. And there's just huge lines. You
have to wait for everything. Everything's overpriced.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Wait are they mad at you specifically?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Ben? Sometimes it depends on what you do, come on,
it depends on how the baby's being Yeah, yeah, yes.
And your reward at the end of all of this
stuff is that you get to sit in this tiny
aircraft in this cramp seat like I'm tall, and my
knees bumped the thing and the baby's screaming And okay, just.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
For the record, i am petite, i am small, so okay,
like at least I've got that going for me. But yeah,
and the thing is, like it should be totally cool
and awesome because like you're flying.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, but we totally lose sight of that. Right. All
I'm thinking is that, like I'm squished and my back hurts,
and I'm wearing a pair of crappy headphones, trying to
watch some ten year old movie on my telephone because
they don't have screens on the on the airplane anymore.
And like the baby's kicking me and throwing cheerios at
the flight attendant. And you know what he said, It's
(02:56):
easy to complain about this stuff, Like I think comedians
make entire career years out of complaining about airline travel.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But yeah, it's funny because it's true.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yes, exactly. Everybody kind of can relate to that a
little bit. But it's what you said, right, you're flying,
You're flying through the air, like you could literally be
everybody listening to this podcast could all tab into a
new window and buy a ticket to somewhere in the world,
like if you want to, and you you have maybe
not the expendable incompany, you have the income.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Or the or the like the like the points from
your credit card or like frequent fly.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Or the airline miles or whatever. Like a large number
of people in the world could within twenty four hours
be literally anywhere else in the world, which is just
amazing to think about. Right, Yeah, you've got to this.
The price of admission is like the twenty seven dollars
french fries at McDonald's, but as.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
A disappointing pretzels or.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Whatever on the right. Yeah, they throw they throw a
bag of pretzels at you, and they give you a
glass of like sparkling water and then you know, then
the dude in front of you puts a seatback all
the way and you're squish.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh my goodness, yes, yes, yeah, I feel like, okay,
not this podcast, but like if we had a different
podcast on random etiquette stuff, we could do an entire
podcast on airplane etiquette.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
If we were able to send a letter back to
the year twelve fifty to Venice, Italy, and if you
were able to tell somebody then you have the capability
to travel anywhere in the world within twenty four hours.
It would blow their minds because this is back in
the day when everybody is going everywhere on foot or
by horseback or by boat, and travel takes forever, and
(04:34):
nobody sees anything in the world right in the old days,
it's a it's a war, it's it's a quest to
go see this thing it is.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I'm gonna talk to you about Marco Polo because he
is on a quest. He is out there with his
father and his uncle, and these guys are going to
travel tens of thousands of miles on foot, horseback, by ship,
by camel through uncharted territories full of bandits and pirates
and warlords and man eating creatures and a myriad of
(05:07):
other unimaginably hazardous perils. So we're going to talk about
Marco Polo, but his dad and his uncle are also
extremely interesting characters, and Pat, I think we're gonna have
to actually split this into two episodes.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I think you're right, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, His dad and his uncle are so interesting that
I think we can we can do part one about
mostly their adventures and kind of pick up Marco in
part two. And I think that might be a fun
way to break this out, because his dad's badass enough
as he is. Oh totally, yeah, Okay, So let's get
into the first part of this story. The Marco Polo
(05:50):
story begins with his father Niccolo Polo, and Niccolo leaves
his pregnant wife. In twelve fifty four, Niccolo and his
brother Mafeo decide that they are going to go to Constantinople.
They're and Venice currently, and Venice is this big trading empire.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's right on the coast. They've got a navy.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They big naval force. Like the big navy is putting
them at odds with the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople. And
so this one Venetian guy, he's like eighty years old,
but he decides that like Constantinople has kind of opened
its doors to these crusaders. This one rabble rouser guy
comes in there and is like, hey, actually, like aren't
(06:31):
the Byzantines orthodox? Isn't that also not Catholic? Maybe we
should just plunder Constantinople since we're here already. So they do,
and they ransacked Constantinople and they create what's called the
Latin Empire. It's very crusadery, very medieval. What they do
to the Constantinople. It's a blood bath. And they overthrow
it and they throw out the Byzantine emperors and they
(06:53):
put in a Catholic emperor, and this is a very
small window of time, but this is the window of
time that we're talking about right now. And so Niccolo
and Mafeo Polo they decide they're going to go there
and try to like there's a Venetian quarter in Constantinople now,
and there's a big trading hub, and there's a lot
of opportunity to be had there. So in total fifty
four Nicolo goes there to kind of take advantage of it.
(07:15):
This is about fifty years after the Fourth Crusade, so
a decent chunk of time. Like time is weird with
the medieval stuff because everything takes five years to get anywhere.
So when Niccolo gets there, like all of the domes
of the big Orthodox churches still have all of the
copper and gold pride off them, so everything looks kind
of weird when he gets there.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right, So, people had like basically been looting the siding
off of the roofs of these religious buildings.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
They took everything that wasn't nailed down, and even some
stuff that was like, yeah, they ransacked to that town.
Pretty brutal, but not necessarily like perpetrated by our heroes.
So I'm willing to I'm willing to move forward with it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, it was the general context within which our heroes
were heroing.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yes, Okay. So these two brothers are setting up shop
in Constantinople and they are living in the Venetian Quarter
and they're selling in gemstones. They're trading gemstones, they're doing
merchant e commercey stuff. They're making money. They were merchants
from Venice and they were doing merchant to Venice kind
of things.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And they were okay, yeah, big numbers get bigger.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
They say. There for about five years, but then things
start to get kind of crazy in Constantinople. There's a
lot of uh, there's a lot of unrest. Right. You've
got these Catholics that have come in from Venice and
a couple other places in Europe, but it's Constantinople. They're
all Orthodox, they all kind of it's Byzantium like, it's
literally the town that used to be called Byzantium. Like,
(08:45):
these are occupiers and they're not welcome. And Nicolo and
Mafeyo kind of read the winds and they decide that
they're gonna leave. They're gonna get out of there and
go do something else. So they decide they're gonna head
north to They're just going to go right across the
Black See to Crimea. Oh Crimea, Yeah, which you might
have heard of before. Yeah. They go there, they sail across,
and they land in Crimea and they find out, oh,
(09:08):
actually Crimea has been completely overrun by the Golden Horde
of the Mongol Empire.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Wait, wait, hold on, this is this is the Mongol Empire,
who is based kind of way the hell out there
on the other side of the continent.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, so twelve fifty nine, this is the height of
the Mongol Empire, right, like they have created through through
a lot of blood and beheading and killing, they have
forged the largest contiguous land empire in human history before
and since. And it stretches all the way out across
(09:44):
the Steps, all the way across the Ukraine and the
Crimea and Russia and all of this stuff. And when
they land in the in Crimea, they realize like, oh,
this is this is Mongol land. So Nicolo and Mafeo
they're they're they're curious, right they the place they were
to go is kind of a bust for them because
it's been plundered and ransacked and pillaged and probably lots
(10:05):
of people are dead.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, that would kind of suck.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, twelve fifty nine is kind of like Genghis Khan
is dead, but like his grandsons are running things now.
So the Mongol Horde is kind of split up into
separate tribes, all kind of run by separate empires, all
run by different grandsons of Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And this is Genghis Khan, so he might have multiple
grandsons like he get around.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, tons, tons of grandchildren. More of them will appear
as we continue through the story. So Nicolo and Mafeyo
decide they're going to go to a Mongol town called Sarai.
We know it was the seat of power for the
Golden Horde in the region. We know it was on
the Volga River. We assume it was probably along the
(10:50):
Russia Kazakhstan border on the Volga, but we don't know
exactly where it is, and we don't know exactly where
it is because it's the it's the Palace of Sarai.
But it's mostly tense. I mean, the Mongols are not
build a city kind of guys. They are like and
I mean, what do you.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mean, but it's tense. I mean like and it's tense.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I mean, like these like and you get to sleep
and it's tense.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well yeah, I mean these are your people. Yours are trendy.
And here's the thing about real estate and buildings is
like you have to maintain it, you know. I mean
maybe maybe urt are the way to go.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You know, you just kind of if your water heater breaks,
you just set the whole place on fire and then
move on to the next ten.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Okay for example. Yeah, but anyway, moving on.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
But yeah, So Sarai is the headquarters of Berkie Khan,
who is the grandson of Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
He's a grandson of Ganghis Khan.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
He's a grandson through Genghis's oldest son.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Okay, so oh okay, So he's got.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Like higher up in the higher up in the in
the hierarchy of grandsons of Genghis Khan. And he's living
in Sarai and these two Venetian traders show up with
a bunch of gems that are like, hey, what's going on?
And he immediately takes a liking to them. He wants
them to help manage some of his stuff. So he
kind of brings these guys into his inner circle, which
(12:08):
is big for them, right, They're kind of big fish
in a small pond, like medium level Venetian slash Constantinople
traders who end up in like a village of Yurts
in Kazakhstan, who like, you know, they can make some
stuff happen that some of the local people can't, and
they they end up becoming a position of prominence that
(12:29):
they wouldn't have attained in Constantinople.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So are they like outside consultants.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Basically there's a lot of that, some translators, some of
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, translators.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah. And that goes well for about a year, which
is like just kind of how things worked in the
Middle Ages, Like you stay there for the winter and
then all all of a sudden, you're there for.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
A year, yeah, because like who wants to travel during
the winter, honestly, Right.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So that's going well for them up until the point
at which Burki Khan gets into a civil war with
hula Gu Khan, who is a different grandson of Genghis Khan.
He is the leader of the Ilkanate, which is basically
persia Iran Iraq area. So the Ilkanate and the Golden
Horde go to war, and suddenly you got Mongols riding
(13:15):
around with like lances and compound bows, and the Polos decide, like,
we got to get out of here. This is not
working out for us. We got to go. So where
do they go? We got to go back the way
we came from. We're going to go back to Constantinople.
Then from there we'll go back to Venice. Maybe I'll
see my wife for the first time in two decades.
Maybe not, who knows? Wait wait, whoa, whoa two decades
a decade. I think it's like fifteen years or so.
(13:35):
It's been like ten years at.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
This point, like a non trivial amount of time.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Let's see, at this point we are looking at at
this point, spent six years.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay, okay, six years okay, which is yeah, you know
that's a minute.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
It's a long trip.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And so they decide they're going to go back to
Constantinople and then go into Venice through Constantinople. But there's
a problem. Remember how these guys left in twelve fifty
nine because they were worried about the impending unrest. Yes, well,
In twelve sixty, the Byzantine Emperor retakes Constantinople from the
Latin Empire. This is the end of the Latin Empire
(14:13):
as we know it. He burns the entire Venetian quarter
to the ground. He blinds every Venetian person he can
get his hands on by putting out their eyes, He
cuts out their tongues. That town that like the that
they landed in. All of the Mongols cut everybody's head off,
like the Byzantine Epper is cutting everybody's eyes out.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Like yeah brutal, Okay, hey, hey hey, badass nation. Don't
cut off body parts of other people.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Right. There is a civil war between Hulagu Khan and
Berki Khan. The Polos do not want to be involved
in any of this stuff that's going on.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And none of us want to be involved in this then,
I mean, like we want to be far away. We
want to be in a place that is not here.
We want to be in place that is not the
Vulgar River.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yes, they do not want to be involved in the
Mongol civil war, but their only way back to Venice
is through Constantinople, which every Venetian there is like getting
their eyes put out and their tongues cut out or whatever.
Bad horrible things are happening to these people, that everything's
burned to the ground. So what do you do? You
go east? And what's east of Kazakhstan? Wait?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
East? So is this like way east? Is? Is that
a bit of a backtrack?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's gotta I mean where is are you going to go?
Like north?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, into Siberia? No west across like the kind of
the step that's probably still Golden Horde territory. You're going
to get attacked. Yeah, So they cross east into Kazakhstan
and what's there? Do you know? What? Did you know?
What's the east of Kazakhstan? Though? Is more Kazakhstan, And
it just goes on forever they cross Kazakhstan. They crossed
(15:43):
into Uzbekistan. They're going across steppe and rock and at
some point they run out of food and water and
they run out of supplies, and they end up in
this town called Bukara, which is in Uzbekistan, which is
probably smaller than the capital of the Golden Horde. But
Nicolo and Mafeo get there and they have no recourse,
(16:06):
They can't afford to go back. They can't afford to
go forward. They're out of everything. All their supplies have
run out. They've been tricking across the step and the
mountains in the desert forever and they're stuck. And they
end up here and they are there for three years,
three years old. They just cannot leave. Wow, And they're
just kind of trying to make a living in this town.
(16:27):
And then they kind of catch a break after three years,
they catch a break. I remember I was talking about
Hulagu Khan, the leader of the Ilkanate, which is one
of these successor empires of Genghis Khan. There's a messenger
from Hulagu Khan and he is on his way to
China to deliver a message to Kubla Khan, who is
the head of the Mongol Empire in China.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, because the Mongols are in charge of China right now.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Right, the Mongols have taken over everything. They've taken over everything,
like basically east of Vienna is Mongols. Right. The empire
was huge, but it ended up breaking up after the
death of Genghis to sign kind of his sons and
grandsons kind of dividing the empire up among themselves and
Kubla Khan is now the Yuan Emperor of China.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Okay, so let's just pause. From a Yuan Emperor of China,
that means that he's like established a dynasty.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yes, he has established a dynasty in China. And we're
going to see Kubla Khan a lot more as the
story progresses. But he is doing his thing in China,
and Nicolo and Mafeyo were like, well, let's go check
that out. Let's go see what's up with that. And
so they travel with this messenger and this kind of
Mongol bodyguard from the Mongol army out to China to
(17:37):
see Kubla Khan and they travel along the Silk Road.
And one thing that's important when we're talking about Marco
Polo is that Marco Polo didn't quote discover China from Italy.
He was not the first European to go there. You know,
the Silk Road is old. Yea Silk Road predates him
by thirteen hundred years.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Oh yeah, yeah. Like we've got poets in the time
of the Roman emperor Augustus, which is like first century
BCE BC, first century c for century AD talking about
silk Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You know, yeah, I mean, this is an old thing
of this is an old say, but it's dangerous, and
it's still dangerous thirteen hundred years later. Oh yeah, it's
four thousand miles, it's desert, it's step it's the Gobi Desert.
It's dangerous. You know, you can't get rid of all
the bandits and the pirates and the people who are
going to try to ambush you as they're walking along
this route.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And even if even without the bandits, traveling is an ordeal.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, what happens if you get sick? Right? Like, yeah,
hopefully don't die on the trail, right, Like it's Oregon trail,
but it's yeah, probably it's Oregon trail, but it's ten
x the length, right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Exactly, And like like what if you fall off your horse?
What if you break your ankle? What if your horse
breaks their ankle.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
In the middle of nowhere? Yeah, last gas for four
thousand miles, right, Yes, but they're traveling with this Mungo entourage,
so they make it. And Nicolo and Mafel meet kobl
Khan in Beijing and he likes them for the same
reason that Berkie Kahn liked them. I'm going to talk
more about Kubla in a little bit. But the important
thing right now is that he is fascinated by the West.
(19:05):
These aren't the first Westerners to come out there, but
Kublai doesn't get a lot of Westerners come out there.
There isn't really a sea route yet. If you're going
to go to to China, you've got to go by land,
and not a lot of people want to make that trip.
So Kubla likes them, and he wants to foster trade
between the West. And he's also weirdly kind of fascinated
by Christianity. So Kubla Khan's mother, her name is I'm
(19:29):
gonna butcher this, but it's sorgag Tani. She's amazing. She
was a single mom pretty early on and like was
able to rest power for Kubla Khan as the Yuan
Emperor of China through diplomatic means while trying to negotiate
with Genghis Khan's other grandsons. Right, Like, she's amazing and
(19:50):
we could do a whole thing about her, Like she's
the reason Kubla Khan is there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, she sounds pretty badass.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
She's amazing, But we're going to talk about a dude
that we haven't even mentioned yet. And and I don't
want to get too much into Kubla Khan and Sorgaktani,
but she was in a story and Christian Nicolo Mafeo,
we're probably Catholic. We're certainly Catholic. But you will see that,
like religion does not play a huge role in the
Polos lives and adventures. The important thing to know is
(20:19):
that it's is that she was Christian of some flavor
which made Kublai Khan interested in it. And so what
Kubla Khan says to Nicolo and Mafeyo. He says to
the brothers is you know, I like you guys. You're cool.
He shows him a really fun time and his an
amazing palace in China, and I'll talk more about that
in a little bit. But then he's like, here's what
I want you guys to do. I want you to
(20:40):
go back, and I want you to bring a letter
to the Pope. So he gives them a couple of things.
He gives them a letter to the Pope in Rome.
I want you to send a hundred Christians to my
court to teach my court about Christianity and Western culture.
I want a vial of lamp oil from the lantern
at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So the Holy Sabuker like the tomb where Christ was.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yes, he wants holy oil from Christ's tomb in Jerusalem.
He wants a hundred Christians, and he wants this letter
delivered to the Pope in Rome. And he gives the
polos what is called a pisa, which is a little
strip of solid gold, not very big, a couple of
inches wide, a couple of inches tall. It's basically stamped
with like Kubla Khan says that anybody who is a
(21:29):
subject of the Mongol Empire must give these men anything
they asked for.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Okay, So it's like a kind of a passport, or
like a passport with benefits or something, or.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
It's a blank check. It's like it's an unlimited credit card. Right, Yeah,
it is a seal of approval. And they walk back
across the Silk Road. Four thousand miles.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Okay, this is This is not four thousand steps, which
I might reasonably do before lunch. This is four thousand miles.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Four thousand miles is the United States from New York
to la and back. That's a long walk. I guess
they ride a horse, but were several horses probably, but
that's a long way.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Do they need new shoes? Do the horses need new shoes? Probably?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Everybody needs new shoes, new pants, knew everything?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Ye oh god, new pants. Moving on.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So they ride back in Oker and they arrive there
in twelve sixty eight and they go to the Bishop
of Oker and they say, we need to go talk
to the pope. Can you help us? And the Bishop
of Owker says, eh, the pope died and we haven't
elected a new one yet.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So awkward.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You got this mission of Koba Khan. It's twelve sixty eight.
You're an Oker. What do you think these guys did? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow, Okay, many options spring to mind, none of them
probably realistic. One of them is like do a weekend
at Bernie's where you sort of like make a like
a fake pope.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
That you just call the pope signature. I think that's heresy.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Like I'm not saying I'm not saying
any of these are like cool. It's just like what
my people who are freaking out actually do.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I'll tell you what they did. They went home to
Venice to see how his wife was doing after fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Okay, yes, yeah, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
He was like, well, I guess I'm waiting for the
new pope to get elected. I'll go home and see
how my wife is doing after the last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Do we know how she was doing? Do sources tell us.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
That she's been dead for fourteen years?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Snap, she died not long after childbirth. Oh shit, and
so she's not there. Oh but instead it sucks, he
finds something else. He finds Marco.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Polo.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Marco Polo Polo. He finds his son, who is fifteen
years old now and has never met him and didn't
probably think he was still alive. Where existed in the
first place. He finds Marco Polo, fifteen years old, living
on the docks of Venice with his aunt and uncle,
(23:57):
doing doc thing, doing doc things, trying to learn the
trade of being a merchant, but not there yet. He's
apprenticing it stuff, He's loading and unloading things off of boats.
He's just your average like doc guy. This is just
kind of a Harry Potter situation for this guy. He
is just living with his aunt and uncle, hanging out board,
(24:19):
watching all the ships come and go out of Venice
Harbor without any possible chance of getting on any of them.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Nicolo and Mafeo go up to him and they say, Hi,
I'm your dad and your uncle. Good to meet you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Marco, I am your father.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yes, Hi, I am your dad, and this is your uncle.
And we are in a mission from Kubla Khan, the
Yuan Emperor of China, to deliver a message to the Pope.
And do you want to go on an adventure?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I'm guessing young Marco says a c or yes,
and then maybe his next thing is like I have questions,
or maybe you don't have questions. Maybe it's just okay,
he's fifteen. He's fifteen, So like this is like maybe
tenth graders, maybe eleventh graders. And if someone comes along
and says, hey, I'm from Koubla Khan, the Yuan Emperor
(25:11):
of China, and I have a mission to the Pope,
my guess is that a fifteen year old might say, hell'sia.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah fuck yeah. That's what he said is no questions asked,
get me out of here, let's go.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And so I mean there's a great moment here and
Marco writes about it in his book of Like I'd
only ever watched these ships come and go. I've walked
past all of these stores that sell all these amazing
things to adventurers. Suddenly my long lost dad shows up
and is like, here's our boat. We got to go
buy some shit for this adventure. Do you want to
(25:48):
come to this armor and weapons store with me? Do
you want to come to like the outfitter with me?
Do you want to buy some of this crap that
you've only ever looked at through the front window of
the store before. We're gonna load the ship up with spices.
We're gonna buy all these crazy goods and bring them
with us to our on our adventure. This kid's mind
is blown as the best thing that's ever happened to
him in his entire life.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
He's like, you had me at high yeah or yeah okay,
And speaking as myself as Pat, I'm like you had
me at spices. He's like, Okay, these days, like you
just go down to the grocery store and you like
get like cinnamon for like three dollars. But in those days,
spices were intensely luxury.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Goods, right, yeah, I mean you know, like salt. Right,
Salt was a massively expensive thing in the in the
Roman Empire.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Right exactly, you could get paid in salt.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, get about like cumin or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah. Anyway, so Nicolo and Mafeo show up and they're like, hey,
want to, like, I don't know, hang out with us,
and we want to hang out with like a place
that is not here.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, do you want to go meet the pope? Do
you want to go meet the Emperor of China? Okay, yeah,
sounds great, let's go dad. So they take off, but
there's still no pope. They're in Venice, they're outfitting or
st off, getting all the gear together. They're going to
go to like go back to the Kubla Khan. But
there's still no pope. They haven't elected a new one.
It's twelve seventy one, it's been three years, and there's
no pope. Still they haven't. I mean, yeah, I mean surprise,
(27:12):
I guess. But like, there's a lot of politics involved
with who's the next pope. It's not just the most
holiest dude on Earth. It's kind of like there's some
politics involved among the College of Cardinals as to who
they pick, and there's some political things in play, and
there's an argument about who should be the next pope,
and so Nicolo and Mafeyo they don't really want to
keep the Mongol Khan waiting, so they just decide, like,
(27:35):
you know what, let's just go get that oil from
the Church of the Holy Stepulcher and go back and
we'll see if we can get one hundred Christians. We'll
see what we can do.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
And just like okay, when we say oil, like, okay,
this is oil that obviously has a lot riding on it,
but it's not petroleum. It's oil like oil that you
anoint someone on the forehead with, Yeah, holy.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oil, Mr okay, specifically murr okay, Yeah, which I don't
I don't know beyond like the Three Wise Men stories.
I know it's an oil. I know that it's in
the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. It's got a very
special religious meaning to it. But that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, Yeah, it's a it's like a resin, like a
sap that you get from certain trees. But like, okay,
like that's like the physical description, but like, yeah, it's
got a lot of symbolic stuff riding on it.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, right, and you were talking about, you know, exotic
spices and things that mrs and an exotic spice, right,
that's why they brought it to Jesus when he was born.
So they sail for Oker. Well, we're gonna go We're
just gonna go back and we'll see what happens. They
get to Oker and they go meet that bishop that
they saw before. His name is Teobaldo Visconti. They're like, hey,
(28:40):
you know, we're just gonna go. We're gonna go back.
So do you want to send him do you want
to send a message to Kubla Khan? You know, can
you help us get the Mrrh from the Church of
the Holy Sepulcher. He's kind of Oker is like the
Crusader seat in the area, so he's kind of the
bishop of this whole area. And he's like, well, he's like,
why don't you guys hang out for a little bit,
We'll see what happens. And so the Polos hang out
(29:02):
for about a year in Ocer and the church finally
elects a new pope in twelve seventy one. The White
Smoke comes and the person who gets elected pope is
is the Bishop of Oker. Taobaldovisconti, the dude who they're
literally living in his house or in is like in
(29:22):
his general vicinity.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Okay, note to self, if you want to get self
elected pope, get the Polos to hang out in your residence.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yes exactly, So yeah, Taobaldovisconti becomes Pope Gregory tenth. I
always read it as Pope Gregory X, which just sounds
more awesome. So that's always how I think of him.
But Gregory X, Hey that I mean that worked out.
That worked out pretty well for these guys. So they're like, hey,
do you want to read this letter from Kubla Khan
that you've already read twice? Do you have every answer
for it now? And so he does. He writes a
(29:51):
little letter back. They're like, okay, we need the oil
or we need the mr from the Church of the
Holy Sepulcher. Okay, yeah, no problem, we need one hundred Christians.
He's like, I'll send you. How about two Dominicans? Does
that work? The Polos are like, that's probably fine, they'll
come with us. So we're ninety eight guys short, but
that's all right, that can come with us. So these
(30:12):
two Dominican Friars come with them, and then they head out.
They're going to go by land to to to see
Kubla Khan again.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, all the way out across like across the Silk Road,
across the Gobi Desert, all the.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Way to China, four thousand miles across the Sometimes they're
traveling with with bigger caravans. Sometimes they are traveling mostly alone.
They're carrying a baggage train full of all of those
weapons and spices and things that they want to treat
to Kubla kN Yeah, traveling in a caravan that is
(30:49):
just full of expensive, valuable things through areas that are
largely dominated by warlords and bandits, and it's just these
three dudes. And occasionally they can join up with a
bigger caravan for safety, but not always. Those Dominican friars
from Oker they run away almost immediately they go out
(31:11):
on the trip. They go past Mount Arrarat in Armenia,
where they believe where they believed that they yeah, Noah's
Ark was set was stranded. They go through Georgia, they
go past the Golden Domes of Baghdad, and the Friars
are like, yeah, we're out. This is too terrifying. We
can't do it.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
They run away, So we're now down to let me
do the math.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Zero Christians, zero one additional Christian because Marco wasn't there
the original times, they're bringing one guy with him instead
of one hundred. He's going to be an important guys
as we'll see. But yeah, they're ninety nine guys short
now of what they left for. They continue it, and
like I said, I feel like we've almost kind of
underrepresented this four thousand mile journey. But they go through
(31:52):
the Dominican Friar's bail and the Polo's. At one point
when they're in the Gobi Desert, there's a big sandstorm
that comes up and bandits attack them. Out of this sandstorm.
They're there with a much bigger caravan at this point,
like I said, they've been doing like smaller groups and
bigger groups. These bandits come out of this rolling sandstorm,
you can't see anything, and the Polos fight their way
(32:12):
out with whatever they can get their hands on. Everybody
else in the caravan is being killed or captured or
whatever enslaved. Nobody knows what happened to any of these
guys because the Polos never see any of them again.
Oh no, but they escape. The three Polos escape with
whatever goods they could drag out of this war with them,
and then in twelve seventy five they finally arrive at
(32:37):
their destination. They arrive at them at Xanadu, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Starring Olivia Newton John No, right.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, except it's less. It's less roller skates and more
Kublai Khan summer palace. So it's it's a couple hundred
miles northwest of Beijing. Marco Polo is now twenty one.
He left home at fifteen.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
He's twenty one, and he's here and he's at zan
to Do and he's in China, and he's.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Like, wow, it blows his mind. And this is the
thing I want to mention too, kind of like what
we're talking about in the intro of like you and
me could get on an airplane to like we could literally,
while I'm talking to you, I could go on to
Expedia and buy a plane ticket to Beijing and and
be in Xanadu in two days. Right, But it took
him six years from when he met his dad, so
(33:23):
when he finally got to Xanadu, and that is like
a kind of a good way to kind of picture
what this looks like for for for traveling in this
time period.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah. So if you want to travel to any place
that is not like the next village over, you're committing
to a you're committing, You're making commitment.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's a commitment.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, and it's it's also a risk.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, huge risk, right. I mean a lot of the
people on that caravan didn't make it, and they you know,
a lot of the goods and supplies and things that
were headed that way and never got there.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
So he arrives at Xanadu and now Marco Polo's in
China are about to begin. And Pat, this has been
such an incredible story already. I think we're going to
have to save the second part for next week and
get into Marco Polo in part two.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I think. So. I think this week we've given you Marco,
come back next week for Polo.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Actually it should be this week we gave you Polo,
and next week it's Marco. We're doing it backwards, it's
Polo Marco. Oh, yeah, you're right, Thanks so much for listening,
and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. Executive producers are Andrew Jacobs, Me, Pat Larish,
and my co host Ben Thompson. Writing is by me
and Ben. Story editing is by Ian Jacobs, Brandon Phibbs,
and Allie Lamer. Mixing and music and sound design is
(34:54):
by Jude Brewer. Consulting by Michael May. Special thanks to
Noel Brown at iHeart Badass of the Week is based
on the website Badass of Theweek dot com, where you
can read all sorts of stories about other badasses. If
you want to reach out with questions ideas, you can
email us at Badass Podcast at badassoftheweek dot com. If
(35:19):
you like the podcast, subscribe, follow, listen, and tell your
friends and your enemies if you want as We'll be
back next week with another one. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. It's twelve sixty eight. Venice is teeming
with crowds sailors and traders moving off and on ships
unloading goods to be traded and sold across the world.
(00:22):
At the edge of one of these docks stands an
orphan fifteen year old boy. He's watching the ships come
in and out as he does every day, wishing for
something more from his life. It wouldn't be long before
Moore arrived in the form of a mysterious man knocking
on his door. It's the boy's father. He tells him
(00:43):
that he's returned from the palace of the Emperor of China,
where he met the Mongol Khan and received a letter
to deliver directly to the Pope. After he delivers this letter,
he's going back. He asks the boy a question, do
you want to going in an adventure? Have you ever
wished for something more? Bet?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
Hey, Ben, do you have bad ass to tell me about?
Speaker 1 (01:17):
Well, one thing I do want to talk about today
is that I'm gonna be traveling soon. Yeah, exactly where
you traveling too. I Am going to Brazil, my my
wife and her family are from Brazil, and I'm going
to be going back for a couple of months to
stay there. You know, I get thinking about airline travel. Yeah,
and one thing with airline travel is you're just like,
it's just it's brutal right, It's just it's so hard.
(01:40):
You're sitting there at the at the terminal. You've got
like your brown bag with like McDonald's French fries that
you're jamming into your mouth. Everybody's unhappy. You gotta wait
in the TSA lines. Yeah, there's crying babies and and
you know this, all the people working at the counter
are mad at you. And there's just huge lines. You
have to wait for everything. Everything's overpriced.
Speaker 2 (02:01):
Wait are they mad at you specifically?
Speaker 1 (02:03):
Ben? Sometimes it depends on what you do, come on,
it depends on how the baby's being Yeah, yeah, yes.
And your reward at the end of all of this
stuff is that you get to sit in this tiny
aircraft in this cramp seat like I'm tall, and my
knees bumped the thing and the baby's screaming And okay, just.
Speaker 2 (02:23):
For the record, i am petite, i am small, so okay,
like at least I've got that going for me. But yeah,
and the thing is, like it should be totally cool
and awesome because like you're flying.
Speaker 1 (02:35):
Yeah, but we totally lose sight of that. Right. All
I'm thinking is that, like I'm squished and my back hurts,
and I'm wearing a pair of crappy headphones, trying to
watch some ten year old movie on my telephone because
they don't have screens on the on the airplane anymore.
And like the baby's kicking me and throwing cheerios at
the flight attendant. And you know what he said, It's
(02:56):
easy to complain about this stuff, Like I think comedians
make entire career years out of complaining about airline travel.
Speaker 2 (03:01):
But yeah, it's funny because it's true.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
Yes, exactly. Everybody kind of can relate to that a
little bit. But it's what you said, right, you're flying,
You're flying through the air, like you could literally be
everybody listening to this podcast could all tab into a
new window and buy a ticket to somewhere in the world,
like if you want to, and you you have maybe
not the expendable incompany, you have the income.
Speaker 2 (03:24):
Or the or the like the like the points from
your credit card or like frequent fly.
Speaker 1 (03:29):
Or the airline miles or whatever. Like a large number
of people in the world could within twenty four hours
be literally anywhere else in the world, which is just
amazing to think about. Right, Yeah, you've got to this.
The price of admission is like the twenty seven dollars
french fries at McDonald's, but as.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
A disappointing pretzels or.
Speaker 1 (03:50):
Whatever on the right. Yeah, they throw they throw a
bag of pretzels at you, and they give you a
glass of like sparkling water and then you know, then
the dude in front of you puts a seatback all
the way and you're squish.
Speaker 2 (04:01):
Oh my goodness, yes, yes, yeah, I feel like, okay,
not this podcast, but like if we had a different
podcast on random etiquette stuff, we could do an entire
podcast on airplane etiquette.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
If we were able to send a letter back to
the year twelve fifty to Venice, Italy, and if you
were able to tell somebody then you have the capability
to travel anywhere in the world within twenty four hours.
It would blow their minds because this is back in
the day when everybody is going everywhere on foot or
by horseback or by boat, and travel takes forever, and
(04:34):
nobody sees anything in the world right in the old days,
it's a it's a war, it's it's a quest to
go see this thing it is.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
I'm gonna talk to you about Marco Polo because he
is on a quest. He is out there with his
father and his uncle, and these guys are going to
travel tens of thousands of miles on foot, horseback, by ship,
by camel through uncharted territories full of bandits and pirates
and warlords and man eating creatures and a myriad of
(05:07):
other unimaginably hazardous perils. So we're going to talk about
Marco Polo, but his dad and his uncle are also
extremely interesting characters, and Pat, I think we're gonna have
to actually split this into two episodes.
Speaker 2 (05:21):
I think you're right, Ben, Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Yeah, His dad and his uncle are so interesting that
I think we can we can do part one about
mostly their adventures and kind of pick up Marco in
part two. And I think that might be a fun
way to break this out, because his dad's badass enough
as he is. Oh totally, yeah, Okay, So let's get
into the first part of this story. The Marco Polo
(05:50):
story begins with his father Niccolo Polo, and Niccolo leaves
his pregnant wife. In twelve fifty four, Niccolo and his
brother Mafeo decide that they are going to go to Constantinople.
They're and Venice currently, and Venice is this big trading empire.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
It's right on the coast. They've got a navy.
Speaker 1 (06:09):
They big naval force. Like the big navy is putting
them at odds with the Byzantine Empire and Constantinople. And
so this one Venetian guy, he's like eighty years old,
but he decides that like Constantinople has kind of opened
its doors to these crusaders. This one rabble rouser guy
comes in there and is like, hey, actually, like aren't
(06:31):
the Byzantines orthodox? Isn't that also not Catholic? Maybe we
should just plunder Constantinople since we're here already. So they do,
and they ransacked Constantinople and they create what's called the
Latin Empire. It's very crusadery, very medieval. What they do
to the Constantinople. It's a blood bath. And they overthrow
it and they throw out the Byzantine emperors and they
(06:53):
put in a Catholic emperor, and this is a very
small window of time, but this is the window of
time that we're talking about right now. And so Niccolo
and Mafeo Polo they decide they're going to go there
and try to like there's a Venetian quarter in Constantinople now,
and there's a big trading hub, and there's a lot
of opportunity to be had there. So in total fifty
four Nicolo goes there to kind of take advantage of it.
(07:15):
This is about fifty years after the Fourth Crusade, so
a decent chunk of time. Like time is weird with
the medieval stuff because everything takes five years to get anywhere.
So when Niccolo gets there, like all of the domes
of the big Orthodox churches still have all of the
copper and gold pride off them, so everything looks kind
of weird when he gets there.
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Right, So, people had like basically been looting the siding
off of the roofs of these religious buildings.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
They took everything that wasn't nailed down, and even some
stuff that was like, yeah, they ransacked to that town.
Pretty brutal, but not necessarily like perpetrated by our heroes.
So I'm willing to I'm willing to move forward with it.
Speaker 2 (07:59):
Okay, it was the general context within which our heroes
were heroing.
Speaker 1 (08:04):
Yes, Okay. So these two brothers are setting up shop
in Constantinople and they are living in the Venetian Quarter
and they're selling in gemstones. They're trading gemstones, they're doing
merchant e commercey stuff. They're making money. They were merchants
from Venice and they were doing merchant to Venice kind
of things.
Speaker 2 (08:21):
And they were okay, yeah, big numbers get bigger.
Speaker 1 (08:24):
They say. There for about five years, but then things
start to get kind of crazy in Constantinople. There's a
lot of uh, there's a lot of unrest. Right. You've
got these Catholics that have come in from Venice and
a couple other places in Europe, but it's Constantinople. They're
all Orthodox, they all kind of it's Byzantium like, it's
literally the town that used to be called Byzantium. Like,
(08:45):
these are occupiers and they're not welcome. And Nicolo and
Mafeyo kind of read the winds and they decide that
they're gonna leave. They're gonna get out of there and
go do something else. So they decide they're gonna head
north to They're just going to go right across the
Black See to Crimea. Oh Crimea, Yeah, which you might
have heard of before. Yeah. They go there, they sail across,
and they land in Crimea and they find out, oh,
(09:08):
actually Crimea has been completely overrun by the Golden Horde
of the Mongol Empire.
Speaker 2 (09:12):
Wait, wait, hold on, this is this is the Mongol Empire,
who is based kind of way the hell out there
on the other side of the continent.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, so twelve fifty nine, this is the height of
the Mongol Empire, right, like they have created through through
a lot of blood and beheading and killing, they have
forged the largest contiguous land empire in human history before
and since. And it stretches all the way out across
(09:44):
the Steps, all the way across the Ukraine and the
Crimea and Russia and all of this stuff. And when
they land in the in Crimea, they realize like, oh,
this is this is Mongol land. So Nicolo and Mafeo
they're they're they're curious, right they the place they were
to go is kind of a bust for them because
it's been plundered and ransacked and pillaged and probably lots
(10:05):
of people are dead.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
Yeah, that would kind of suck.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Yeah, twelve fifty nine is kind of like Genghis Khan
is dead, but like his grandsons are running things now.
So the Mongol Horde is kind of split up into
separate tribes, all kind of run by separate empires, all
run by different grandsons of Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (10:23):
And this is Genghis Khan, so he might have multiple
grandsons like he get around.
Speaker 1 (10:29):
Yeah, tons, tons of grandchildren. More of them will appear
as we continue through the story. So Nicolo and Mafeyo
decide they're going to go to a Mongol town called Sarai.
We know it was the seat of power for the
Golden Horde in the region. We know it was on
the Volga River. We assume it was probably along the
(10:50):
Russia Kazakhstan border on the Volga, but we don't know
exactly where it is, and we don't know exactly where
it is because it's the it's the Palace of Sarai.
But it's mostly tense. I mean, the Mongols are not
build a city kind of guys. They are like and
I mean, what do you.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
Mean, but it's tense. I mean like and it's tense.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
I mean, like these like and you get to sleep
and it's tense.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
Well yeah, I mean these are your people. Yours are trendy.
And here's the thing about real estate and buildings is
like you have to maintain it, you know. I mean
maybe maybe urt are the way to go.
Speaker 1 (11:23):
You know, you just kind of if your water heater breaks,
you just set the whole place on fire and then
move on to the next ten.
Speaker 2 (11:29):
Okay for example. Yeah, but anyway, moving on.
Speaker 1 (11:33):
But yeah, So Sarai is the headquarters of Berkie Khan,
who is the grandson of Genghis Khan.
Speaker 2 (11:39):
He's a grandson of Ganghis Khan.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
He's a grandson through Genghis's oldest son.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Okay, so oh okay, So he's got.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Like higher up in the higher up in the in
the hierarchy of grandsons of Genghis Khan. And he's living
in Sarai and these two Venetian traders show up with
a bunch of gems that are like, hey, what's going on?
And he immediately takes a liking to them. He wants
them to help manage some of his stuff. So he
kind of brings these guys into his inner circle, which
(12:08):
is big for them, right, They're kind of big fish
in a small pond, like medium level Venetian slash Constantinople
traders who end up in like a village of Yurts
in Kazakhstan, who like, you know, they can make some
stuff happen that some of the local people can't, and
they they end up becoming a position of prominence that
(12:29):
they wouldn't have attained in Constantinople.
Speaker 2 (12:31):
So are they like outside consultants.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Basically there's a lot of that, some translators, some of
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:38):
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, translators.
Speaker 1 (12:40):
Yeah. And that goes well for about a year, which
is like just kind of how things worked in the
Middle Ages, Like you stay there for the winter and
then all all of a sudden, you're there for.
Speaker 2 (12:48):
A year, yeah, because like who wants to travel during
the winter, honestly, Right.
Speaker 1 (12:53):
So that's going well for them up until the point
at which Burki Khan gets into a civil war with
hula Gu Khan, who is a different grandson of Genghis Khan.
He is the leader of the Ilkanate, which is basically
persia Iran Iraq area. So the Ilkanate and the Golden
Horde go to war, and suddenly you got Mongols riding
(13:15):
around with like lances and compound bows, and the Polos decide, like,
we got to get out of here. This is not
working out for us. We got to go. So where
do they go? We got to go back the way
we came from. We're going to go back to Constantinople.
Then from there we'll go back to Venice. Maybe I'll
see my wife for the first time in two decades.
Maybe not, who knows? Wait wait, whoa, whoa two decades
a decade. I think it's like fifteen years or so.
(13:35):
It's been like ten years at.
Speaker 2 (13:36):
This point, like a non trivial amount of time.
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Let's see, at this point we are looking at at
this point, spent six years.
Speaker 2 (13:46):
Okay, okay, six years okay, which is yeah, you know
that's a minute.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
It's a long trip.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
And so they decide they're going to go back to
Constantinople and then go into Venice through Constantinople. But there's
a problem. Remember how these guys left in twelve fifty
nine because they were worried about the impending unrest. Yes, well,
In twelve sixty, the Byzantine Emperor retakes Constantinople from the
Latin Empire. This is the end of the Latin Empire
(14:13):
as we know it. He burns the entire Venetian quarter
to the ground. He blinds every Venetian person he can
get his hands on by putting out their eyes, He
cuts out their tongues. That town that like the that
they landed in. All of the Mongols cut everybody's head off,
like the Byzantine Epper is cutting everybody's eyes out.
Speaker 2 (14:30):
Like yeah brutal, Okay, hey, hey hey, badass nation. Don't
cut off body parts of other people.
Speaker 1 (14:37):
Right. There is a civil war between Hulagu Khan and
Berki Khan. The Polos do not want to be involved
in any of this stuff that's going on.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
And none of us want to be involved in this then,
I mean, like we want to be far away. We
want to be in a place that is not here.
We want to be in place that is not the
Vulgar River.
Speaker 1 (14:53):
Yes, they do not want to be involved in the
Mongol civil war, but their only way back to Venice
is through Constantinople, which every Venetian there is like getting
their eyes put out and their tongues cut out or whatever.
Bad horrible things are happening to these people, that everything's
burned to the ground. So what do you do? You
go east? And what's east of Kazakhstan? Wait?
Speaker 2 (15:14):
East? So is this like way east? Is? Is that
a bit of a backtrack?
Speaker 1 (15:17):
It's gotta I mean where is are you going to go?
Like north?
Speaker 2 (15:19):
Okay?
Speaker 1 (15:20):
Yeah, into Siberia? No west across like the kind of
the step that's probably still Golden Horde territory. You're going
to get attacked. Yeah, So they cross east into Kazakhstan
and what's there? Do you know? What? Did you know?
What's the east of Kazakhstan? Though? Is more Kazakhstan, And
it just goes on forever they cross Kazakhstan. They crossed
(15:43):
into Uzbekistan. They're going across steppe and rock and at
some point they run out of food and water and
they run out of supplies, and they end up in
this town called Bukara, which is in Uzbekistan, which is
probably smaller than the capital of the Golden Horde. But
Nicolo and Mafeo get there and they have no recourse,
(16:06):
They can't afford to go back. They can't afford to
go forward. They're out of everything. All their supplies have
run out. They've been tricking across the step and the
mountains in the desert forever and they're stuck. And they
end up here and they are there for three years,
three years old. They just cannot leave. Wow, And they're
just kind of trying to make a living in this town.
(16:27):
And then they kind of catch a break after three years,
they catch a break. I remember I was talking about
Hulagu Khan, the leader of the Ilkanate, which is one
of these successor empires of Genghis Khan. There's a messenger
from Hulagu Khan and he is on his way to
China to deliver a message to Kubla Khan, who is
the head of the Mongol Empire in China.
Speaker 2 (16:47):
Yeah, because the Mongols are in charge of China right now.
Speaker 1 (16:49):
Right, the Mongols have taken over everything. They've taken over everything,
like basically east of Vienna is Mongols. Right. The empire
was huge, but it ended up breaking up after the
death of Genghis to sign kind of his sons and
grandsons kind of dividing the empire up among themselves and
Kubla Khan is now the Yuan Emperor of China.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
Okay, so let's just pause. From a Yuan Emperor of China,
that means that he's like established a dynasty.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
Yes, he has established a dynasty in China. And we're
going to see Kubla Khan a lot more as the
story progresses. But he is doing his thing in China,
and Nicolo and Mafeyo were like, well, let's go check
that out. Let's go see what's up with that. And
so they travel with this messenger and this kind of
Mongol bodyguard from the Mongol army out to China to
(17:37):
see Kubla Khan and they travel along the Silk Road.
And one thing that's important when we're talking about Marco
Polo is that Marco Polo didn't quote discover China from Italy.
He was not the first European to go there. You know,
the Silk Road is old. Yea Silk Road predates him
by thirteen hundred years.
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Oh yeah, yeah. Like we've got poets in the time
of the Roman emperor Augustus, which is like first century
BCE BC, first century c for century AD talking about
silk Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
You know, yeah, I mean, this is an old thing
of this is an old say, but it's dangerous, and
it's still dangerous thirteen hundred years later. Oh yeah, it's
four thousand miles, it's desert, it's step it's the Gobi Desert.
It's dangerous. You know, you can't get rid of all
the bandits and the pirates and the people who are
going to try to ambush you as they're walking along
this route.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
And even if even without the bandits, traveling is an ordeal.
Speaker 1 (18:28):
Yeah, what happens if you get sick? Right? Like, yeah,
hopefully don't die on the trail, right, Like it's Oregon trail,
but it's yeah, probably it's Oregon trail, but it's ten
x the length, right.
Speaker 2 (18:38):
Exactly, And like like what if you fall off your horse?
What if you break your ankle? What if your horse
breaks their ankle.
Speaker 1 (18:43):
In the middle of nowhere? Yeah, last gas for four
thousand miles, right, Yes, but they're traveling with this Mungo entourage,
so they make it. And Nicolo and Mafel meet kobl
Khan in Beijing and he likes them for the same
reason that Berkie Kahn liked them. I'm going to talk
more about Kubla in a little bit. But the important
thing right now is that he is fascinated by the West.
(19:05):
These aren't the first Westerners to come out there, but
Kublai doesn't get a lot of Westerners come out there.
There isn't really a sea route yet. If you're going
to go to to China, you've got to go by land,
and not a lot of people want to make that trip.
So Kubla likes them, and he wants to foster trade
between the West. And he's also weirdly kind of fascinated
by Christianity. So Kubla Khan's mother, her name is I'm
(19:29):
gonna butcher this, but it's sorgag Tani. She's amazing. She
was a single mom pretty early on and like was
able to rest power for Kubla Khan as the Yuan
Emperor of China through diplomatic means while trying to negotiate
with Genghis Khan's other grandsons. Right, Like, she's amazing and
(19:50):
we could do a whole thing about her, Like she's
the reason Kubla Khan is there.
Speaker 2 (19:54):
Yeah, she sounds pretty badass.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
She's amazing, But we're going to talk about a dude
that we haven't even mentioned yet. And and I don't
want to get too much into Kubla Khan and Sorgaktani,
but she was in a story and Christian Nicolo Mafeo,
we're probably Catholic. We're certainly Catholic. But you will see that,
like religion does not play a huge role in the
Polos lives and adventures. The important thing to know is
(20:19):
that it's is that she was Christian of some flavor
which made Kublai Khan interested in it. And so what
Kubla Khan says to Nicolo and Mafeyo. He says to
the brothers is you know, I like you guys. You're cool.
He shows him a really fun time and his an
amazing palace in China, and I'll talk more about that
in a little bit. But then he's like, here's what
I want you guys to do. I want you to
(20:40):
go back, and I want you to bring a letter
to the Pope. So he gives them a couple of things.
He gives them a letter to the Pope in Rome.
I want you to send a hundred Christians to my
court to teach my court about Christianity and Western culture.
I want a vial of lamp oil from the lantern
at the Church of the Holy Sepulcher in Jerusalem.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
So the Holy Sabuker like the tomb where Christ was.
Speaker 1 (21:05):
Yes, he wants holy oil from Christ's tomb in Jerusalem.
He wants a hundred Christians, and he wants this letter
delivered to the Pope in Rome. And he gives the
polos what is called a pisa, which is a little
strip of solid gold, not very big, a couple of
inches wide, a couple of inches tall. It's basically stamped
with like Kubla Khan says that anybody who is a
(21:29):
subject of the Mongol Empire must give these men anything
they asked for.
Speaker 2 (21:33):
Okay, So it's like a kind of a passport, or
like a passport with benefits or something, or.
Speaker 1 (21:38):
It's a blank check. It's like it's an unlimited credit card. Right, Yeah,
it is a seal of approval. And they walk back
across the Silk Road. Four thousand miles.
Speaker 2 (21:48):
Okay, this is This is not four thousand steps, which
I might reasonably do before lunch. This is four thousand miles.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Four thousand miles is the United States from New York
to la and back. That's a long walk. I guess
they ride a horse, but were several horses probably, but
that's a long way.
Speaker 2 (22:08):
Do they need new shoes? Do the horses need new shoes? Probably?
Speaker 1 (22:12):
Everybody needs new shoes, new pants, knew everything?
Speaker 2 (22:14):
Ye oh god, new pants. Moving on.
Speaker 1 (22:17):
So they ride back in Oker and they arrive there
in twelve sixty eight and they go to the Bishop
of Oker and they say, we need to go talk
to the pope. Can you help us? And the Bishop
of Owker says, eh, the pope died and we haven't
elected a new one yet.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
So awkward.
Speaker 1 (22:35):
You got this mission of Koba Khan. It's twelve sixty eight.
You're an Oker. What do you think these guys did? Oh?
Speaker 2 (22:42):
Wow, Okay, many options spring to mind, none of them
probably realistic. One of them is like do a weekend
at Bernie's where you sort of like make a like
a fake pope.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
That you just call the pope signature. I think that's heresy.
Speaker 2 (22:56):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Like I'm not saying I'm not saying
any of these are like cool. It's just like what
my people who are freaking out actually do.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
I'll tell you what they did. They went home to
Venice to see how his wife was doing after fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (23:07):
Okay, yes, yeah, okay yeah.
Speaker 1 (23:11):
He was like, well, I guess I'm waiting for the
new pope to get elected. I'll go home and see
how my wife is doing after the last fifteen years.
Speaker 2 (23:17):
Do we know how she was doing? Do sources tell us.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
That she's been dead for fourteen years?
Speaker 2 (23:22):
Oh?
Speaker 1 (23:23):
Snap, she died not long after childbirth. Oh shit, and
so she's not there. Oh but instead it sucks, he
finds something else. He finds Marco.
Speaker 2 (23:35):
Polo.
Speaker 1 (23:36):
Marco Polo Polo. He finds his son, who is fifteen
years old now and has never met him and didn't
probably think he was still alive. Where existed in the
first place. He finds Marco Polo, fifteen years old, living
on the docks of Venice with his aunt and uncle,
(23:57):
doing doc thing, doing doc things, trying to learn the
trade of being a merchant, but not there yet. He's
apprenticing it stuff, He's loading and unloading things off of boats.
He's just your average like doc guy. This is just
kind of a Harry Potter situation for this guy. He
is just living with his aunt and uncle, hanging out board,
(24:19):
watching all the ships come and go out of Venice
Harbor without any possible chance of getting on any of them.
Speaker 2 (24:25):
Yeah, And.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
Nicolo and Mafeo go up to him and they say, Hi,
I'm your dad and your uncle. Good to meet you.
Speaker 2 (24:34):
Marco, I am your father.
Speaker 1 (24:36):
Yes, Hi, I am your dad, and this is your uncle.
And we are in a mission from Kubla Khan, the
Yuan Emperor of China, to deliver a message to the Pope.
And do you want to go on an adventure?
Speaker 2 (24:51):
So I'm guessing young Marco says a c or yes,
and then maybe his next thing is like I have questions,
or maybe you don't have questions. Maybe it's just okay,
he's fifteen. He's fifteen, So like this is like maybe
tenth graders, maybe eleventh graders. And if someone comes along
and says, hey, I'm from Koubla Khan, the Yuan Emperor
(25:11):
of China, and I have a mission to the Pope,
my guess is that a fifteen year old might say, hell'sia.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Yeah fuck yeah. That's what he said is no questions asked,
get me out of here, let's go.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
And so I mean there's a great moment here and
Marco writes about it in his book of Like I'd
only ever watched these ships come and go. I've walked
past all of these stores that sell all these amazing
things to adventurers. Suddenly my long lost dad shows up
and is like, here's our boat. We got to go
buy some shit for this adventure. Do you want to
(25:48):
come to this armor and weapons store with me? Do
you want to come to like the outfitter with me?
Do you want to buy some of this crap that
you've only ever looked at through the front window of
the store before. We're gonna load the ship up with spices.
We're gonna buy all these crazy goods and bring them
with us to our on our adventure. This kid's mind
is blown as the best thing that's ever happened to
him in his entire life.
Speaker 2 (26:06):
He's like, you had me at high yeah or yeah okay,
And speaking as myself as Pat, I'm like you had
me at spices. He's like, Okay, these days, like you
just go down to the grocery store and you like
get like cinnamon for like three dollars. But in those days,
spices were intensely luxury.
Speaker 1 (26:25):
Goods, right, yeah, I mean you know, like salt. Right,
Salt was a massively expensive thing in the in the
Roman Empire.
Speaker 2 (26:31):
Right exactly, you could get paid in salt.
Speaker 1 (26:34):
Yeah, get about like cumin or whatever.
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah. Anyway, so Nicolo and Mafeo show up and they're like, hey,
want to, like, I don't know, hang out with us,
and we want to hang out with like a place
that is not here.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
Yeah, do you want to go meet the pope? Do
you want to go meet the Emperor of China? Okay, yeah,
sounds great, let's go dad. So they take off, but
there's still no pope. They're in Venice, they're outfitting or
st off, getting all the gear together. They're going to
go to like go back to the Kubla Khan. But
there's still no pope. They haven't elected a new one.
It's twelve seventy one, it's been three years, and there's
no pope. Still they haven't. I mean, yeah, I mean surprise,
(27:12):
I guess. But like, there's a lot of politics involved
with who's the next pope. It's not just the most
holiest dude on Earth. It's kind of like there's some
politics involved among the College of Cardinals as to who
they pick, and there's some political things in play, and
there's an argument about who should be the next pope,
and so Nicolo and Mafeyo they don't really want to
keep the Mongol Khan waiting, so they just decide, like,
(27:35):
you know what, let's just go get that oil from
the Church of the Holy Stepulcher and go back and
we'll see if we can get one hundred Christians. We'll
see what we can do.
Speaker 2 (27:42):
And just like okay, when we say oil, like, okay,
this is oil that obviously has a lot riding on it,
but it's not petroleum. It's oil like oil that you
anoint someone on the forehead with, Yeah, holy.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Oil, Mr okay, specifically murr okay, Yeah, which I don't
I don't know beyond like the Three Wise Men stories.
I know it's an oil. I know that it's in
the Church of the Holy Sepulcher. It's got a very
special religious meaning to it. But that's what we're talking about.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
Yeah, Yeah, it's a it's like a resin, like a
sap that you get from certain trees. But like, okay,
like that's like the physical description, but like, yeah, it's
got a lot of symbolic stuff riding on it.
Speaker 1 (28:19):
Yeah, right, and you were talking about, you know, exotic
spices and things that mrs and an exotic spice, right,
that's why they brought it to Jesus when he was born.
So they sail for Oker. Well, we're gonna go We're
just gonna go back and we'll see what happens. They
get to Oker and they go meet that bishop that
they saw before. His name is Teobaldo Visconti. They're like, hey,
(28:40):
you know, we're just gonna go. We're gonna go back.
So do you want to send him do you want
to send a message to Kubla Khan? You know, can
you help us get the Mrrh from the Church of
the Holy Sepulcher. He's kind of Oker is like the
Crusader seat in the area, so he's kind of the
bishop of this whole area. And he's like, well, he's like,
why don't you guys hang out for a little bit,
We'll see what happens. And so the Polos hang out
(29:02):
for about a year in Ocer and the church finally
elects a new pope in twelve seventy one. The White
Smoke comes and the person who gets elected pope is
is the Bishop of Oker. Taobaldovisconti, the dude who they're
literally living in his house or in is like in
(29:22):
his general vicinity.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Okay, note to self, if you want to get self
elected pope, get the Polos to hang out in your residence.
Speaker 1 (29:30):
Yes exactly, So yeah, Taobaldovisconti becomes Pope Gregory tenth. I
always read it as Pope Gregory X, which just sounds
more awesome. So that's always how I think of him.
But Gregory X, Hey that I mean that worked out.
That worked out pretty well for these guys. So they're like, hey,
do you want to read this letter from Kubla Khan
that you've already read twice? Do you have every answer
for it now? And so he does. He writes a
(29:51):
little letter back. They're like, okay, we need the oil
or we need the mr from the Church of the
Holy Sepulcher. Okay, yeah, no problem, we need one hundred Christians.
He's like, I'll send you. How about two Dominicans? Does
that work? The Polos are like, that's probably fine, they'll
come with us. So we're ninety eight guys short, but
that's all right, that can come with us. So these
(30:12):
two Dominican Friars come with them, and then they head out.
They're going to go by land to to to see
Kubla Khan again.
Speaker 2 (30:21):
Yeah, all the way out across like across the Silk Road,
across the Gobi Desert, all the.
Speaker 1 (30:29):
Way to China, four thousand miles across the Sometimes they're
traveling with with bigger caravans. Sometimes they are traveling mostly alone.
They're carrying a baggage train full of all of those
weapons and spices and things that they want to treat
to Kubla kN Yeah, traveling in a caravan that is
(30:49):
just full of expensive, valuable things through areas that are
largely dominated by warlords and bandits, and it's just these
three dudes. And occasionally they can join up with a
bigger caravan for safety, but not always. Those Dominican friars
from Oker they run away almost immediately they go out
(31:11):
on the trip. They go past Mount Arrarat in Armenia,
where they believe where they believed that they yeah, Noah's
Ark was set was stranded. They go through Georgia, they
go past the Golden Domes of Baghdad, and the Friars
are like, yeah, we're out. This is too terrifying. We
can't do it.
Speaker 2 (31:26):
They run away, So we're now down to let me
do the math.
Speaker 1 (31:29):
Zero Christians, zero one additional Christian because Marco wasn't there
the original times, they're bringing one guy with him instead
of one hundred. He's going to be an important guys
as we'll see. But yeah, they're ninety nine guys short
now of what they left for. They continue it, and
like I said, I feel like we've almost kind of
underrepresented this four thousand mile journey. But they go through
(31:52):
the Dominican Friar's bail and the Polo's. At one point
when they're in the Gobi Desert, there's a big sandstorm
that comes up and bandits attack them. Out of this sandstorm.
They're there with a much bigger caravan at this point,
like I said, they've been doing like smaller groups and
bigger groups. These bandits come out of this rolling sandstorm,
you can't see anything, and the Polos fight their way
(32:12):
out with whatever they can get their hands on. Everybody
else in the caravan is being killed or captured or
whatever enslaved. Nobody knows what happened to any of these
guys because the Polos never see any of them again.
Oh no, but they escape. The three Polos escape with
whatever goods they could drag out of this war with them,
and then in twelve seventy five they finally arrive at
(32:37):
their destination. They arrive at them at Xanadu, which is awesome.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Starring Olivia Newton John No, right.
Speaker 1 (32:46):
Yeah, except it's less. It's less roller skates and more
Kublai Khan summer palace. So it's it's a couple hundred
miles northwest of Beijing. Marco Polo is now twenty one.
He left home at fifteen.
Speaker 2 (32:57):
He's twenty one, and he's here and he's at zan
to Do and he's in China, and he's.
Speaker 1 (33:01):
Like, wow, it blows his mind. And this is the
thing I want to mention too, kind of like what
we're talking about in the intro of like you and
me could get on an airplane to like we could literally,
while I'm talking to you, I could go on to
Expedia and buy a plane ticket to Beijing and and
be in Xanadu in two days. Right, But it took
him six years from when he met his dad, so
(33:23):
when he finally got to Xanadu, and that is like
a kind of a good way to kind of picture
what this looks like for for for traveling in this
time period.
Speaker 2 (33:33):
Yeah. So if you want to travel to any place
that is not like the next village over, you're committing
to a you're committing, You're making commitment.
Speaker 1 (33:43):
It's a commitment.
Speaker 2 (33:44):
Yeah, and it's it's also a risk.
Speaker 1 (33:46):
Yeah, huge risk, right. I mean a lot of the
people on that caravan didn't make it, and they you know,
a lot of the goods and supplies and things that
were headed that way and never got there.
Speaker 2 (33:55):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
So he arrives at Xanadu and now Marco Polo's in
China are about to begin. And Pat, this has been
such an incredible story already. I think we're going to
have to save the second part for next week and
get into Marco Polo in part two.
Speaker 2 (34:13):
I think. So. I think this week we've given you Marco,
come back next week for Polo.
Speaker 1 (34:17):
Actually it should be this week we gave you Polo,
and next week it's Marco. We're doing it backwards, it's
Polo Marco. Oh, yeah, you're right, Thanks so much for listening,
and we'll see you next time.
Speaker 2 (34:33):
Badass of the Week is an iHeartRadio podcast produced by
High five Content. Executive producers are Andrew Jacobs, Me, Pat Larish,
and my co host Ben Thompson. Writing is by me
and Ben. Story editing is by Ian Jacobs, Brandon Phibbs,
and Allie Lamer. Mixing and music and sound design is
(34:54):
by Jude Brewer. Consulting by Michael May. Special thanks to
Noel Brown at iHeart Badass of the Week is based
on the website Badass of Theweek dot com, where you
can read all sorts of stories about other badasses. If
you want to reach out with questions ideas, you can
email us at Badass Podcast at badassoftheweek dot com. If
(35:19):
you like the podcast, subscribe, follow, listen, and tell your
friends and your enemies if you want as We'll be
back next week with another one. For more podcasts from iHeartRadio,
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