July 21, 2021 • 37 mins
As a 2020 presidential candidate, Julián Castro proposed radically reforming United States immigration policy by putting people first. Previously he served as President Barack Obama’s Secretary of Housing and Urban Development and spent three terms as mayor of San Antonio, Texas. In 2018 Castro published his memoir, An Unlikely Journey: Waking Up from My American Dream. He now serves on the Board of Directors for the Center for American Progress and is a political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. Dr. Kendi and Castro sit down to discuss the common ground on which antiracist and pro-immigrant battles must be fought. For further reading, resources, and a transcript of this episode visit https://www.pushkin.fm/podcasts/be-antiracist-with-ibram-x-kendi.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:15):
Pushkin. If I could do one thing right now, I
think that on a large scale, it would be to
change how Americans think about immigrants, because for forever, not
(00:37):
just for the last couple of years or the last decade,
we've had this dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating
immigrant story but also being antagonistic toward immigrants. Let's start
(00:58):
with a trivia question which famous American leader described immigrants
in the following way. Those who come are generally of
the most ignorant, stupid sort of their own nation. No,
it was not Donald Trump. I'm talking about another guy
who called immigrants ignorant and stupid. The answer is Benjamin Franklin,
(01:23):
who protested a wave of German immigration to Pennsylvania back
in seventeen fifty three. Racist and xenophobic ideas in the
United States are actually older than the nation itself, and
those ideas have always justified America's immigration policies. I'm abramax Kenedy,
(01:49):
and this is b anti racist. After winning the American Revolution,
Americans drafted a constitution that empowered Congress to establish rules
for naturalization, the process by which immigrants can become citizens.
The members of the First Congress act quickly and in
(02:10):
March of seventeen ninety past the Naturalization Act. Under this law,
only a free white person who resided in the country
for at least two years and could prove they were
a person of good character could become a citizen. In
other words, the first immigration law in the United States
(02:31):
declare that only free white people, specifically wealthy Western Europeans,
were welcomed to the rights and liberties of American citizenship.
Naturalization laws grew even more restrictive as the United States grew,
extending residency requirements and adding exclusionary racial quotas. Meanwhile, anti
(02:56):
immigration movements shifted their targets based on the economic and
political circumstances of the moment. Germans in the seventeen fifties,
Irish Catholics in the eighteen forties, Chinese in the eighteen seventies,
European Jews in the eighteen eighties, Italians in the nineteen hundreds,
(03:17):
Russians in the nineteen tens, Mexicans in the nineteen thirties.
After World War Two, more and more immigrants from Europe
melted into the pot of whiteness in newly opened suburbs. Meanwhile, latinas.
Black and Asian immigrants continued to endure attacks shaped by
(03:38):
their race, place of origin, disability status, gender, sexuality, class,
and religion. The antiimmigrant policies and ideas resembled the policies
and ideas facing internal migrants and their descendants in the US.
Between nineteen fifteen and nineteen seventy, more than six million
(03:59):
Black Americans fled the Jim Crow South for the North, Midwest,
and West. I am the grandchild of people who migrated
from ruled Georgia to New York City in the late
nineteen forties. My grandfather, a veteran of World War Two,
worked as a presser at a dry cleaning service. My grandmother,
(04:21):
his wife, was an elevator operator. My grandparents, like so
many other people who left their counties in countries in
hopes of a better future on American soil, were called invaders,
his immigrants from the global South are called today. My
grandparents were seen as a drain rather than the well
(04:43):
of their new communities. Like countless immigrant families over the years,
few groups of immigrants in American history from Europe, Asia,
South America, and Africa were the right immigrants or came
the right way Welcome to Be Anti Racist in Action podcast,
(05:07):
where we discussed how to die nos, dismantle and abolish racism,
how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas
and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, how to
free humanity through the unity of anti racist ideas and
the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. On Be
(05:29):
Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the impossible possible
and how to bring into being what modern humans have
never known, a just and equitable world. You ready, let's roll.
(05:59):
The dream of raising a family in a place where
hard work is rewarded is not unique to Americans. It's
a human dream, one that calls across oceans and boarders.
The dream is universal, but America makes it possible, and
our investment and opportunity makes it a reality. Julian Castro
(06:23):
is the grandson of immigrants from Mexico. He grew up
in San Antonio, Texas, where he eventually served three terms
as mayor. In twenty fourteen, President Barack Obama named him
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, opposed he held into
the end of the administration. In twenty eighteen, he published
(06:43):
a memoir entitled An Unlikely Journey waking up from my
American dream, and in twenty twenty, Castro ran for president
on a platform that proposed radically reforming the immigration system
into a people first system. Castro now serves on the
board of directors for the Center for American Progress and
(07:06):
as a political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. I
recently spoke with Julian Castro about the unbreakable bond between
anti racism and immigrant rights in America. We discussed the
common ground on which anti racist and pro immigrant battles
must be fought. Secretary Castrom so happy we're able to
(07:30):
find some time to chat. I can tell you I've
long admired you and your work. Thank you so much
for having me, and I've admired your work for a
long time, and you're teaching all of us a lot,
so thank you for the invitation to join. You have
learned so much from you, particularly about how to be
anti racist, especially in this moment. In this time, I've
(07:54):
certainly learned about how to be bold and brave, how
to think through with complexity one of the most difficult
and complex issues of our time, which is immigration. This
is a pressing issue. This is an issue that's causing
people right now, in this moment as we speak, to
sit and stand and move in misery. What are the
(08:14):
biggest pain points right now? I mean, if you could change,
make drastic or even small changes right now to alleviate
pain and suffering, what would it be If I could
do one thing right now. I think that on a
large scale, it would be to change how Americans think
about immigrants, because for forever, not just for the last
(08:39):
couple of years or the last decade, we've had this
dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating immigrant story but
also being antagonistic toward immigrants. We all know the history
of it. You know, whether you're talking about the Chinese
Exclusion Act or you're talking about Operation wet Back, which
(09:00):
sent Mexicans and Mexican Americans to Mexico, any number of
ways that our country has seen immigrants as other has
treated them that way. And right now after the Trump administration,
there's been a particular cruelty, a return to a cruelty
that I wish we could get out of and alleviate immediately,
(09:21):
and in many ways we're on that path. Joe Biden
is absolutely not Donald Trump doesn't have the dark heart
that Donald Trump had has made improvements in the treatment,
especially of children. But in some ways there's a danger
of taking some of Trump's cruel policies and making them.
The default title forty two, for instance, which was put
(09:44):
in place during the coronavirus pandemic to summarily keep out
people who are trying to seek asylum, they don't even
get the opportunity to make the claim. That's still in
place for a large number of people who are trying
to claim asylum. I would change the system that we've
had of keeping families and young people in essentially what
(10:05):
looked like metal pens or cages, and even these HHS
sponsored facilities that are better than that but still aren't
fit for children, And I would get these kids into
loving homes, loving families. We need to make so many changes.
That's not even addressing the ten or eleven million people
(10:27):
who are here who are undocumented already, who are living
in this limbo, but during the pandemic have stepped up
in a big way as essential workers and in so
many different ways to support the ability of everybody else
to go about their lives and be healthy and be safe.
One of the most troubling aspects of our discourse around
(10:51):
immigrants is that so many Americans todays great grandfathers and
great grandmothers or great great grandfathers and great great grandmothers
were demonized in similar ways that their descendants are demonizing
immigrants today, and people don't even realize that a century
(11:12):
ago there were efforts to not just exclude people from
Latin America, but also people from Italy, from Russia, Poland,
people from Spain, from Asia, people from Africa, everyone who
is not quote Anglo Saxon or as they said in
the nineteen twenties Nordics, that all of these different groups
(11:35):
were demonized, and indeed, by nineteen twenty four extremely restrictive
Immigration Act was passed. I've always wondered how you thought
about that, just glaring historical contradiction. You know, it's almost
like everybody has had their turn, right. I mean, there's
quotes of Benjamin Franklin about the Germans. There was a
time when Germans and all the other groups that you
(11:56):
mentioned were looked upon as a scourge on this American
society and a danger to it, and they were changing
it in bad ways. And you just write that story
one generation after the next, and one nationality after the next,
and someone's just like, Oh, that's so infuriating, and you
want to say, hey, don't you understand that your own
(12:18):
family was treated like that at one time? And you
would think that in our country that that would give
people a greater understanding at least provide an opening for
the conversation and a point of reflection. And for some
people it does. But I find for a lot of
folks they just see that as you know, either they
(12:38):
don't know the history, or they don't care about the history,
or they've reconciled with the history, and they think that
today's immigrants are different. I've actually heard that argument that
today's immigrants are qualitatively different, That they're lazier, that they
end up on government assistance more, that they don't want
(12:59):
to culturally assimilate the same way that past generations from
these other European countries did. And I think people are
wrong on all of those counts. You have people today
that are hardworking, that have the same values. You know,
they're prideful about their culture like everybody is, but they
also are coming here for a reason to the United States.
(13:20):
They want to be a part of it. They see
it as the land of opportunity. Like generations past did.
They want to make something for themselves, for their family,
but also contribute to the country. They love it. And
that's the great irony. If you lined up everybody in
this country and you could measure what's in the heart
of them when it comes to their patriotism and their
love of this country, some of the highest scores there
(13:42):
would go to many of the very people who are demonized,
who are otherised, and who often aren't given their shot
at opportunity because of where they came from, because of
the color of their skin, because of their accent, because
of their last name, because they don't speak English as
their first language or speak it much at all. That
(14:03):
really is ironic, and it's sad about our country. It is.
And it wasn't just people from Poland in Italy and
Jewish people from Europe who were coming over and being
demonized and even called invaders. Black people who were migrating
up from Mississippi to Chicago, or from Georgia to Detroit,
(14:26):
or for the Carolinas to New York City or Boston.
They were called invaders. And so when I'm specifically talking
to black Americans who to share some of these dominant
ideas about Latin X immigrants taking jobs. I talk about
this is the same rhetoric that was deployed and utilized,
(14:49):
and it was rampant in the American discourse. That's true,
and you point out it's been used in different ways
against different folks and often people of color, and very
recently that division was stoked by Donald Trump. I mean,
he was going out and articulating directly, if I remember, right,
(15:11):
to the black community that these immigrants are taking your jobs.
There's always been an undercurrent of that, but he was
saying the quiet part out loud. The way I think
about this is that these immigrants include black immigrants. We
often don't talk about that, but more than twenty percent
of those who identify, for instance, as Latin AX are
(15:34):
Afro latin X. Some of them have been in the
United States for a long time, some of them are
more recent immigrants. But black immigrants have been invisible in
the conversation, but an important part of the immigrants story
in recent times. The other way I think about it
is just that there's so much more that people have
(15:54):
in common than what divides them. When you're talking about
the common experience or having this country of often working
low wage jobs, of living in many of the same neighborhoods,
of experiencing not exactly the same, I would say, but
still experiencing racism and bigotry bias, and so there's a
(16:16):
lot more. I think that should unite the immigrant community
with the black community, and it's shameful that there are
those who try and divide them. I'm holly on Castro
and you're listening to be anti racist with Abram x Kendy.
(16:40):
You know, sociologists have been documenting immigration for a long time.
And one of the things that sociologists are talking about,
and I think this is extremely difficult for many Americans
to hear, in particular, is what they call immigrant advantage.
So they assess immigrants in terms of resiliency, in terms
(17:02):
of qualities that we all as human beings share, and
they find that immigrants are uniquely sourceful, uniquely resilient across race,
right across ethnicity, across nationality. And so when we as
Americans say immigrants make the nation better, you can actually
(17:23):
make an empirical argument for that. How do we convey
that to the larger American public? Yeah, I mean, that's
one of the biggest crimes when it comes to this
whole narrative that we got convinced somewhere along the way
that these folks are lazy, that they're moochers, that they're
taking from the country, when all of the evidence and
(17:47):
our everyday experiences walking through many neighborhoods in this country,
you see the entrepreneurialism, you see the hard work, you
see the obstacles that immigrants overcome. But that story isn't told,
not told enough. And I think that changing that narrative
begins with telling that story in a very intentional way.
(18:12):
And I mean from the beginning. I mean right now,
when kids go through school, they don't learn that story
nearly enough, and that needs to change in our education system. Lately,
I've been paying more and more attention to what's happening
in this country with what our kids learn in their textbooks,
because too often those decisions are made by political bodies
(18:35):
in states, and these state boards of education have often
been taken over by right wing conservatives, including here in Texas,
that don't want those stories to be told. And if
from the very beginning our kids buy into the narrative,
that just because somebody is an immigrant working in the
(18:57):
fields that they have less value, that they have somehow
failed and they're not contributing as much to the country
as other people, then we've failed and we need to
change that. I was just thinking about this as you
was speaking that for many white Americans who immigrated to
this country and became these titans or great leaders, what's
(19:20):
typically portrayed is what allowed them to become successful was
their whiteness as opposed to them being an immigrant. That's
a great point, right. Obviously I am not white, and
so I can't put myself directly into the mind of
somebody who is. But it does seem like for many
white Americans they don't think of themselves anymore as immigrants
(19:47):
some of them do, you know, many of them do,
and they're certainly still in our country, these pockets, these
enclaves of beautiful immigrant communities. I think of going to
school up around Boston and the pride that you feel
over there, the strong Irish American presidence and history and culture.
So it exists, right, but I think rit large that
(20:10):
connection isn't there in the same way for a lot
of people, And if more thought of themselves directly as
the grandson or the granddaughter of an immigrant, or the
son or the daughter of an immigrant. I do think
that perhaps we could find more common ground, and immigrants
would be celebrated more instead of other rise and hopefully
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going forward, we would avoid what we saw over the
last four years and we would improve what we've seen
visa v immigrants for the last few generations. One of
the reasons why I admire you and your work is
because I think for a long time in this nation's history,
(20:53):
we have conflated immigrant in criminal. But obviously the Trump
administration and Trump in particular, took that conflation to another
level by calling people animals and rapists and criminals. And you,
it seems like, more than anyone else, directly challenge that conflation,
(21:13):
not only in a narrative form, but even in a
policy form. Why has that been so important to you? Well,
I mean it made me mad. It made me mad
to listen to what he was saying, how he was
demonizing immigrants, the language he was using. I grew up
in San Antonio, Texas, a community with a lot of immigrants,
(21:33):
recent immigrants, and then also folks like me who were
second generation, even others, third, fourth, fifth, generation. I knew
that what he was selling wasn't the truth. I also
knew that in a political campaign, you have to translate
policy into a narrative, and what I wanted to do
(21:55):
was to present a different narrative about immigrants. In many ways,
the classic narrative of the hard working immigrant who is
here with a dream, who wants to do well for
themselves and for their family. But try and update that too,
to say, look, these folks that are coming from Honduras
(22:15):
or Il or wherever they're coming from. They're no different
than immigrants who are coming a century ago. So we
should give them the opportunity to make a life in
the United States the way that so many people had
the opportunity to before. In the campaign, I also had
to make a decision about whether I would be bold
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on immigration, knowing that in doing that a lot of
people would write me off as being the brown guy
doing brown things. Well, you're just talking about that because
you know the Latino candidate in the race, and that
that would be an easy way for people to dismiss
my candidacy, or at least to give a short shrift.
(22:57):
And honestly, I put thought into that because when you
run for office. You're not just running to run, You're
trying to run to win. But I decided that in
a time when a lot of people, a lot of politicians,
were being what I thought was fairly timid and scared
of the issue of immigration, that somebody needed to be
(23:18):
as bold to actually tell a true narrative and push
in the other direction in a sound, reasonable way, in
order to combat what Donald Trump was doing. And I
also felt, frankly like I would not sell out. I
would not let down the community and the communities that
I know and that I respect and that had given
(23:42):
me lift in life. I wouldn't use my shot as
a presidential candidate to sell them out by going quiet
on that issue at the very time when a bigoted
president was making this his number one issue. What was
surprising to me, but then again was not surprising to me,
(24:03):
is black men and Latino men voted for Trump the
second time. What do you make of that? Because obviously
Democrats are going to have to figure out why that's happening.
And the reason why I'm asking is because first is
that black men Black people are extremely diverse ideologically, just
as Hispanic and Latino and Latin X people are. But
(24:26):
then also the narrative of change and loss that Donald
Trump and others like him are pushing that it seems
men of color are being attractive to At least that's
what I'm seeing is happening in the black community, that
black men are feeling as if they're aggrieved, and I'm
(24:46):
wondering if you think it's similarly happening among Latino men. Yeah,
I do. I mean, I think there are a lot
of things going on there. First, Donald Trump portrayed himself
as the ultimate outsider that was throwing a finger at
the system. Just speaking for what I know in the
Latino community, you have a lot of people that are
(25:07):
on the outside, a lot of people that have resentment.
You know, at different points in my life, I've felt
that because you feel like you work hard and you're
not getting the same opportunity. A lot of people living
in poverty, they see themselves as not part of the establishment,
and so that part of it may have connected. The
(25:28):
other part that I think connected was a very clear narrative.
People knew what he stood for, and I think anytime
you provide that kind of clarity, then you're going to
get some people that may have been sitting on the
sidelines to go in your direction. And then also I
think at a mechanical level, his campaign, especially through social media,
(25:51):
including through disinformation, was very good at targeting specific communities,
whether in South Florida or South Texas or other places,
with messages that they knew would resonate. In South Florida,
that message about socialism in South Texas, a message about guns,
(26:12):
a message about oil and gas, whatever it was. And
so you add all of that up, and I think
that's the movement you see. I will say, when it
comes to the Latino or Latino community, the strong majority
of people are still voting for the Democrat and they
voted for Joe Biden. But it is a point of
(26:34):
concern the Democrats cannot take the Latin X community for granted.
I think that you had a very clear message about
how immigration can be changed. You've talked about people first immigration,
what is that. It's a concern with the well being
of immigrants as people, seeing them first and foremost as
(26:57):
people that share the same hopes and dreams and aspirations
as all of us. Obviously, like everybody I know. Look,
the country has borders. Every country is going to enforce
their borders. We're going to have immigration laws that we
do enforce. But as we talked about, too oftentimes our
(27:17):
policies get overinfluenced by this demonization, this otherization. I have
often said that if we're not careful in the United States,
that in twenty or thirty years, we're going to be
begging people to immigrate to this country like other countries are. Yeah,
I mean, you have that challenge in other countries. And
that's not a put down of our country. I mean,
(27:40):
we love our country and I believe this is a
wonderful nation in many ways. But we also have to
be realistic. When you look into the future and you
set policy for the future, and a sound immigration policy
that allows enough immigrants to come and work their magic
on the country like they always have, that's in the
best interests of all of us. I'm always trying to
(28:02):
figure out a way to understand the perspectives in the
experiences of different peoples, and one of the way in
which I try to do that is pathways through my
own experience. So one of the ways I think about
undocumented immigrants on a path to citizenship. You tell me
whether this is a wrong way of thinking about it,
particularly for Black Americans. There was a time two hundred
(28:26):
years ago in this country where you had people who
fled violence on plantations, and we're living where I live
now in Boston, but because they had fled violence, they
had to almost live in the shadows. And it seems
to me that Americans today can understand how precarious the
(28:48):
lives of those black folks who fled violence, who fled
slavery to freedom were, but they can't seem to see
how precarious the lives of undocumented people are today. Do
you think that's an app analogy. Certainly. I think that,
of course slavery is something different from what people are
facing in these Northern Triangle countries, But that fleeing from
(29:11):
danger and that common aspiration to find safety and to
find opportunity and a better life, and to be able
to go to sleep at night knowing that your children
are okay and that they're going to have a future
better than they would have if you stayed where you were.
I think that's a common experience of yesterday and today,
(29:38):
and in those different contexts too. I think you're right
that I don't think most Americans think of it that way.
You know, in this country, frankly, as you've pointed out,
and no better than I do. I mean, we have
people rewriting that narrative about slavery that don't want to
acknowledge what happened, right, And we've had that since it happened.
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And if we're not even willing to acknowledge what we
know happened in our own country, what are we going
to do When we don't have that common ex experience
or know have insight into these other countries that people
are coming from. It becomes even easier to dismiss that
as hey, look, you know, I don't know what's going
(30:21):
on over there, but they should make it in their
own country. One of the things I put out there,
which oddly enough actually I think resonated because Americans would
rather that it be handled over there, was this twenty
first century martial plan for Central America, working with those countries,
(30:44):
investing in those countries in the right way so that
people could find safety and opportunity at home instead of
having to make the dangerous journey to the United States. Wait,
so you're telling me that the people who rail against
the quote invasion aren't also seeking to push a marshal
plan is that it just doesn't sound right to me. Well,
(31:05):
now I think people are more willing to support that.
Some of the don't want to support any of it, right, No,
that's what I'm saying. So you have some folks who
wouldn't even support that plan. Yeah, I mean at the
same time they rail against people coming. That's right. I
think they just the way they want to solve the
problem is just keep them out and as some said,
literally shoot people at the border. And that sounds like,
(31:29):
what are you talking about? But remember Trump was talking
in those terms. He would give life to that. He
unleashed those kinds of feelings and ideas and gave them sustenance.
But I think that when you make policy, you have
to take into account not just the people that agree
with you, but also the people that disagree with you.
And when it came to twenty first century martial plan
(31:52):
for Central America, I mean what I wanted to see
was these human beings able to live their lives in
safety and with opportunity and be okay. And for others
that was I just don't want them on my doorstep,
and I want to at the board of the United
States and coming to the United States. But look, we
(32:13):
can find common ground there in the sense that I
want to make it possible for them to be able
to be happy and fulfilled where they are as well.
Maybe for a different reason, but that part of it
was interesting to me during the campaign. What it seems
like to me is you're advocating for the United States
to ensure that people in Northern Triangle as well as
(32:36):
across the world are treated humanely in their own countries,
and then when they come and if they come to
United States, they're treating humanely here too. That's true. Why
is that such a radical idea? Yeah? No, I mean
it's not radical. And the United States, that's what we
pride ourselves on, or have for a long time, right,
I mean, we were the champions of human rights on
(32:57):
the one hand, but then on the other hand, we
have over the years failed in so many ways, and
it's been this process of trying to get better and better,
and we have made a lot of agress, for sure,
but sometimes you still have that duality there, exactly. Well,
Secretary Castro, is truly an honor to talk to you
(33:18):
and to learn from you, and indeed for this community
to hear just how critically important it is for us
to have a people first immigration system whereby people are
not considered the problem, whereby we're thinking about ways to
change policies and practices to treat people humanely no matter
(33:39):
where they come from around the world. And I just
want to thank you for your insight and advocacy on
your voice on this extremely American of all issues, Doctor Kenny,
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
for teaching all of us. The contribution that you've made
has been enormous and I'm very grateful for it. Good
(34:00):
to talk to you. Of course, many of us have
heard the infamous lines of the sonnet on the pedestal
of the Statue of Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse
of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed
(34:24):
to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
Edward de la Boulay, a staunch abolitionist, was the person
who first proposed at France give a monument to the
United States to celebrate the two countries shared commitment to democracy.
La Boulay wanted the statue to commemorate the Thirteenth Amendment's
(34:47):
emancipation of enslaved people after the Civil War. French sculptor
Frederic August Bartoldi initially modeled a Lady Liberty who grasped
broken shackles in her left hand. She was supposed to
represent the abolition of slavery. However, the Northerners and Southerners
tasked with raising funds with the statue's pedestal convinced the
(35:11):
artists to downplay the celebration of black freedom and instead
emphasize the friendship between the United States and France. Are
Toldy obliged and placed the shackles in pieces at Lady
Liberty's feet, largely hidden under her robe. The shackles around
(35:34):
immigrants are no longer hidden under the robe of the
Statue of Liberty. Immigrants are being openly shackled. Americans are
learning the ways in which their own descendants were shackled
when they immigrated to the United States. Immigrants from the
Global South have endured the shackling for decades. Based on
(35:55):
his own family's experiences as Mexican Americans, Julian Castro proposed
a people first immigration system that focuses on building communities
and liberty instead of shackles and walls. We must continue
to fight for freedom until everyone can breathe free and
(36:17):
cross the threshold of the Golden Door as promised by
Lady Liberty. We must fight for an anti racist immigration system.
We must be anti racist. The Anti Racist is a
(36:40):
production of Pushkin Industries and our Heart Media. It is
written and hosted by doctor ebramax Kindy and produced by
Alexandra Garratton with associate producer Brittany Brown. Our engineer has
been Talladay, Our editor is Julia Barton and our shore
runners Sasha Mathist. Our executive producers are the Time Mullad
and Mio Lobell. Many thanks to Tammy Win and doctor
Heather Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist Research at
(37:01):
Boston University for all of the help at Pushkin. Thanks
to Heather Fame, Carlie Mcgleori, Sean Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg.
You can find doctor Kendey on Twitter at d r
Abram and on Instagram at Abram x K. You can
find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods. You
can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm
(37:22):
to find more Pushkin podcasts, Listen on the Our Heart
Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.
Pushkin. If I could do one thing right now, I
think that on a large scale, it would be to
change how Americans think about immigrants, because for forever, not
(00:37):
just for the last couple of years or the last decade,
we've had this dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating
immigrant story but also being antagonistic toward immigrants. Let's start
(00:58):
with a trivia question which famous American leader described immigrants
in the following way. Those who come are generally of
the most ignorant, stupid sort of their own nation. No,
it was not Donald Trump. I'm talking about another guy
who called immigrants ignorant and stupid. The answer is Benjamin Franklin,
(01:23):
who protested a wave of German immigration to Pennsylvania back
in seventeen fifty three. Racist and xenophobic ideas in the
United States are actually older than the nation itself, and
those ideas have always justified America's immigration policies. I'm abramax Kenedy,
(01:49):
and this is b anti racist. After winning the American Revolution,
Americans drafted a constitution that empowered Congress to establish rules
for naturalization, the process by which immigrants can become citizens.
The members of the First Congress act quickly and in
(02:10):
March of seventeen ninety past the Naturalization Act. Under this law,
only a free white person who resided in the country
for at least two years and could prove they were
a person of good character could become a citizen. In
other words, the first immigration law in the United States
(02:31):
declare that only free white people, specifically wealthy Western Europeans,
were welcomed to the rights and liberties of American citizenship.
Naturalization laws grew even more restrictive as the United States grew,
extending residency requirements and adding exclusionary racial quotas. Meanwhile, anti
(02:56):
immigration movements shifted their targets based on the economic and
political circumstances of the moment. Germans in the seventeen fifties,
Irish Catholics in the eighteen forties, Chinese in the eighteen seventies,
European Jews in the eighteen eighties, Italians in the nineteen hundreds,
(03:17):
Russians in the nineteen tens, Mexicans in the nineteen thirties.
After World War Two, more and more immigrants from Europe
melted into the pot of whiteness in newly opened suburbs. Meanwhile, latinas.
Black and Asian immigrants continued to endure attacks shaped by
(03:38):
their race, place of origin, disability status, gender, sexuality, class,
and religion. The antiimmigrant policies and ideas resembled the policies
and ideas facing internal migrants and their descendants in the US.
Between nineteen fifteen and nineteen seventy, more than six million
(03:59):
Black Americans fled the Jim Crow South for the North, Midwest,
and West. I am the grandchild of people who migrated
from ruled Georgia to New York City in the late
nineteen forties. My grandfather, a veteran of World War Two,
worked as a presser at a dry cleaning service. My grandmother,
(04:21):
his wife, was an elevator operator. My grandparents, like so
many other people who left their counties in countries in
hopes of a better future on American soil, were called invaders,
his immigrants from the global South are called today. My
grandparents were seen as a drain rather than the well
(04:43):
of their new communities. Like countless immigrant families over the years,
few groups of immigrants in American history from Europe, Asia,
South America, and Africa were the right immigrants or came
the right way Welcome to Be Anti Racist in Action podcast,
(05:07):
where we discussed how to die nos, dismantle and abolish racism,
how to save humanity from the divisiveness of racist ideas
and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, how to
free humanity through the unity of anti racist ideas and
the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. On Be
(05:29):
Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the impossible possible
and how to bring into being what modern humans have
never known, a just and equitable world. You ready, let's roll.
(05:59):
The dream of raising a family in a place where
hard work is rewarded is not unique to Americans. It's
a human dream, one that calls across oceans and boarders.
The dream is universal, but America makes it possible, and
our investment and opportunity makes it a reality. Julian Castro
(06:23):
is the grandson of immigrants from Mexico. He grew up
in San Antonio, Texas, where he eventually served three terms
as mayor. In twenty fourteen, President Barack Obama named him
Secretary of Housing and Urban Development, opposed he held into
the end of the administration. In twenty eighteen, he published
(06:43):
a memoir entitled An Unlikely Journey waking up from my
American dream, and in twenty twenty, Castro ran for president
on a platform that proposed radically reforming the immigration system
into a people first system. Castro now serves on the
board of directors for the Center for American Progress and
(07:06):
as a political analyst for NBC News and MSNBC. I
recently spoke with Julian Castro about the unbreakable bond between
anti racism and immigrant rights in America. We discussed the
common ground on which anti racist and pro immigrant battles
must be fought. Secretary Castrom so happy we're able to
(07:30):
find some time to chat. I can tell you I've
long admired you and your work. Thank you so much
for having me, and I've admired your work for a
long time, and you're teaching all of us a lot,
so thank you for the invitation to join. You have
learned so much from you, particularly about how to be
anti racist, especially in this moment. In this time, I've
(07:54):
certainly learned about how to be bold and brave, how
to think through with complexity one of the most difficult
and complex issues of our time, which is immigration. This
is a pressing issue. This is an issue that's causing
people right now, in this moment as we speak, to
sit and stand and move in misery. What are the
(08:14):
biggest pain points right now? I mean, if you could change,
make drastic or even small changes right now to alleviate
pain and suffering, what would it be If I could
do one thing right now. I think that on a
large scale, it would be to change how Americans think
about immigrants, because for forever, not just for the last
(08:39):
couple of years or the last decade, we've had this
dual relationship with immigrants of both celebrating immigrant story but
also being antagonistic toward immigrants. We all know the history
of it. You know, whether you're talking about the Chinese
Exclusion Act or you're talking about Operation wet Back, which
(09:00):
sent Mexicans and Mexican Americans to Mexico, any number of
ways that our country has seen immigrants as other has
treated them that way. And right now after the Trump administration,
there's been a particular cruelty, a return to a cruelty
that I wish we could get out of and alleviate immediately,
(09:21):
and in many ways we're on that path. Joe Biden
is absolutely not Donald Trump doesn't have the dark heart
that Donald Trump had has made improvements in the treatment,
especially of children. But in some ways there's a danger
of taking some of Trump's cruel policies and making them.
The default title forty two, for instance, which was put
(09:44):
in place during the coronavirus pandemic to summarily keep out
people who are trying to seek asylum, they don't even
get the opportunity to make the claim. That's still in
place for a large number of people who are trying
to claim asylum. I would change the system that we've
had of keeping families and young people in essentially what
(10:05):
looked like metal pens or cages, and even these HHS
sponsored facilities that are better than that but still aren't
fit for children, And I would get these kids into
loving homes, loving families. We need to make so many changes.
That's not even addressing the ten or eleven million people
(10:27):
who are here who are undocumented already, who are living
in this limbo, but during the pandemic have stepped up
in a big way as essential workers and in so
many different ways to support the ability of everybody else
to go about their lives and be healthy and be safe.
One of the most troubling aspects of our discourse around
(10:51):
immigrants is that so many Americans todays great grandfathers and
great grandmothers or great great grandfathers and great great grandmothers
were demonized in similar ways that their descendants are demonizing
immigrants today, and people don't even realize that a century
(11:12):
ago there were efforts to not just exclude people from
Latin America, but also people from Italy, from Russia, Poland,
people from Spain, from Asia, people from Africa, everyone who
is not quote Anglo Saxon or as they said in
the nineteen twenties Nordics, that all of these different groups
(11:35):
were demonized, and indeed, by nineteen twenty four extremely restrictive
Immigration Act was passed. I've always wondered how you thought
about that, just glaring historical contradiction. You know, it's almost
like everybody has had their turn, right. I mean, there's
quotes of Benjamin Franklin about the Germans. There was a
time when Germans and all the other groups that you
(11:56):
mentioned were looked upon as a scourge on this American
society and a danger to it, and they were changing
it in bad ways. And you just write that story
one generation after the next, and one nationality after the next,
and someone's just like, Oh, that's so infuriating, and you
want to say, hey, don't you understand that your own
(12:18):
family was treated like that at one time? And you
would think that in our country that that would give
people a greater understanding at least provide an opening for
the conversation and a point of reflection. And for some
people it does. But I find for a lot of
folks they just see that as you know, either they
(12:38):
don't know the history, or they don't care about the history,
or they've reconciled with the history, and they think that
today's immigrants are different. I've actually heard that argument that
today's immigrants are qualitatively different, That they're lazier, that they
end up on government assistance more, that they don't want
(12:59):
to culturally assimilate the same way that past generations from
these other European countries did. And I think people are
wrong on all of those counts. You have people today
that are hardworking, that have the same values. You know,
they're prideful about their culture like everybody is, but they
also are coming here for a reason to the United States.
(13:20):
They want to be a part of it. They see
it as the land of opportunity. Like generations past did.
They want to make something for themselves, for their family,
but also contribute to the country. They love it. And
that's the great irony. If you lined up everybody in
this country and you could measure what's in the heart
of them when it comes to their patriotism and their
love of this country, some of the highest scores there
(13:42):
would go to many of the very people who are demonized,
who are otherised, and who often aren't given their shot
at opportunity because of where they came from, because of
the color of their skin, because of their accent, because
of their last name, because they don't speak English as
their first language or speak it much at all. That
(14:03):
really is ironic, and it's sad about our country. It is.
And it wasn't just people from Poland in Italy and
Jewish people from Europe who were coming over and being
demonized and even called invaders. Black people who were migrating
up from Mississippi to Chicago, or from Georgia to Detroit,
(14:26):
or for the Carolinas to New York City or Boston.
They were called invaders. And so when I'm specifically talking
to black Americans who to share some of these dominant
ideas about Latin X immigrants taking jobs. I talk about
this is the same rhetoric that was deployed and utilized,
(14:49):
and it was rampant in the American discourse. That's true,
and you point out it's been used in different ways
against different folks and often people of color, and very
recently that division was stoked by Donald Trump. I mean,
he was going out and articulating directly, if I remember, right,
(15:11):
to the black community that these immigrants are taking your jobs.
There's always been an undercurrent of that, but he was
saying the quiet part out loud. The way I think
about this is that these immigrants include black immigrants. We
often don't talk about that, but more than twenty percent
of those who identify, for instance, as Latin AX are
(15:34):
Afro latin X. Some of them have been in the
United States for a long time, some of them are
more recent immigrants. But black immigrants have been invisible in
the conversation, but an important part of the immigrants story
in recent times. The other way I think about it
is just that there's so much more that people have
(15:54):
in common than what divides them. When you're talking about
the common experience or having this country of often working
low wage jobs, of living in many of the same neighborhoods,
of experiencing not exactly the same, I would say, but
still experiencing racism and bigotry bias, and so there's a
(16:16):
lot more. I think that should unite the immigrant community
with the black community, and it's shameful that there are
those who try and divide them. I'm holly on Castro
and you're listening to be anti racist with Abram x Kendy.
(16:40):
You know, sociologists have been documenting immigration for a long time.
And one of the things that sociologists are talking about,
and I think this is extremely difficult for many Americans
to hear, in particular, is what they call immigrant advantage.
So they assess immigrants in terms of resiliency, in terms
(17:02):
of qualities that we all as human beings share, and
they find that immigrants are uniquely sourceful, uniquely resilient across race,
right across ethnicity, across nationality. And so when we as
Americans say immigrants make the nation better, you can actually
(17:23):
make an empirical argument for that. How do we convey
that to the larger American public? Yeah, I mean, that's
one of the biggest crimes when it comes to this
whole narrative that we got convinced somewhere along the way
that these folks are lazy, that they're moochers, that they're
taking from the country, when all of the evidence and
(17:47):
our everyday experiences walking through many neighborhoods in this country,
you see the entrepreneurialism, you see the hard work, you
see the obstacles that immigrants overcome. But that story isn't told,
not told enough. And I think that changing that narrative
begins with telling that story in a very intentional way.
(18:12):
And I mean from the beginning. I mean right now,
when kids go through school, they don't learn that story
nearly enough, and that needs to change in our education system. Lately,
I've been paying more and more attention to what's happening
in this country with what our kids learn in their textbooks,
because too often those decisions are made by political bodies
(18:35):
in states, and these state boards of education have often
been taken over by right wing conservatives, including here in Texas,
that don't want those stories to be told. And if
from the very beginning our kids buy into the narrative,
that just because somebody is an immigrant working in the
(18:57):
fields that they have less value, that they have somehow
failed and they're not contributing as much to the country
as other people, then we've failed and we need to
change that. I was just thinking about this as you
was speaking that for many white Americans who immigrated to
this country and became these titans or great leaders, what's
(19:20):
typically portrayed is what allowed them to become successful was
their whiteness as opposed to them being an immigrant. That's
a great point, right. Obviously I am not white, and
so I can't put myself directly into the mind of
somebody who is. But it does seem like for many
white Americans they don't think of themselves anymore as immigrants
(19:47):
some of them do, you know, many of them do,
and they're certainly still in our country, these pockets, these
enclaves of beautiful immigrant communities. I think of going to
school up around Boston and the pride that you feel
over there, the strong Irish American presidence and history and culture.
So it exists, right, but I think rit large that
(20:10):
connection isn't there in the same way for a lot
of people, And if more thought of themselves directly as
the grandson or the granddaughter of an immigrant, or the
son or the daughter of an immigrant. I do think
that perhaps we could find more common ground, and immigrants
would be celebrated more instead of other rise and hopefully
(20:32):
going forward, we would avoid what we saw over the
last four years and we would improve what we've seen
visa v immigrants for the last few generations. One of
the reasons why I admire you and your work is
because I think for a long time in this nation's history,
(20:53):
we have conflated immigrant in criminal. But obviously the Trump
administration and Trump in particular, took that conflation to another
level by calling people animals and rapists and criminals. And you,
it seems like, more than anyone else, directly challenge that conflation,
(21:13):
not only in a narrative form, but even in a
policy form. Why has that been so important to you? Well,
I mean it made me mad. It made me mad
to listen to what he was saying, how he was
demonizing immigrants, the language he was using. I grew up
in San Antonio, Texas, a community with a lot of immigrants,
(21:33):
recent immigrants, and then also folks like me who were
second generation, even others, third, fourth, fifth, generation. I knew
that what he was selling wasn't the truth. I also
knew that in a political campaign, you have to translate
policy into a narrative, and what I wanted to do
(21:55):
was to present a different narrative about immigrants. In many ways,
the classic narrative of the hard working immigrant who is
here with a dream, who wants to do well for
themselves and for their family. But try and update that too,
to say, look, these folks that are coming from Honduras
(22:15):
or Il or wherever they're coming from. They're no different
than immigrants who are coming a century ago. So we
should give them the opportunity to make a life in
the United States the way that so many people had
the opportunity to before. In the campaign, I also had
to make a decision about whether I would be bold
(22:36):
on immigration, knowing that in doing that a lot of
people would write me off as being the brown guy
doing brown things. Well, you're just talking about that because
you know the Latino candidate in the race, and that
that would be an easy way for people to dismiss
my candidacy, or at least to give a short shrift.
(22:57):
And honestly, I put thought into that because when you
run for office. You're not just running to run, You're
trying to run to win. But I decided that in
a time when a lot of people, a lot of politicians,
were being what I thought was fairly timid and scared
of the issue of immigration, that somebody needed to be
(23:18):
as bold to actually tell a true narrative and push
in the other direction in a sound, reasonable way, in
order to combat what Donald Trump was doing. And I
also felt, frankly like I would not sell out. I
would not let down the community and the communities that
I know and that I respect and that had given
(23:42):
me lift in life. I wouldn't use my shot as
a presidential candidate to sell them out by going quiet
on that issue at the very time when a bigoted
president was making this his number one issue. What was
surprising to me, but then again was not surprising to me,
(24:03):
is black men and Latino men voted for Trump the
second time. What do you make of that? Because obviously
Democrats are going to have to figure out why that's happening.
And the reason why I'm asking is because first is
that black men Black people are extremely diverse ideologically, just
as Hispanic and Latino and Latin X people are. But
(24:26):
then also the narrative of change and loss that Donald
Trump and others like him are pushing that it seems
men of color are being attractive to At least that's
what I'm seeing is happening in the black community, that
black men are feeling as if they're aggrieved, and I'm
(24:46):
wondering if you think it's similarly happening among Latino men. Yeah,
I do. I mean, I think there are a lot
of things going on there. First, Donald Trump portrayed himself
as the ultimate outsider that was throwing a finger at
the system. Just speaking for what I know in the
Latino community, you have a lot of people that are
(25:07):
on the outside, a lot of people that have resentment.
You know, at different points in my life, I've felt
that because you feel like you work hard and you're
not getting the same opportunity. A lot of people living
in poverty, they see themselves as not part of the establishment,
and so that part of it may have connected. The
(25:28):
other part that I think connected was a very clear narrative.
People knew what he stood for, and I think anytime
you provide that kind of clarity, then you're going to
get some people that may have been sitting on the
sidelines to go in your direction. And then also I
think at a mechanical level, his campaign, especially through social media,
(25:51):
including through disinformation, was very good at targeting specific communities,
whether in South Florida or South Texas or other places,
with messages that they knew would resonate. In South Florida,
that message about socialism in South Texas, a message about guns,
(26:12):
a message about oil and gas, whatever it was. And
so you add all of that up, and I think
that's the movement you see. I will say, when it
comes to the Latino or Latino community, the strong majority
of people are still voting for the Democrat and they
voted for Joe Biden. But it is a point of
(26:34):
concern the Democrats cannot take the Latin X community for granted.
I think that you had a very clear message about
how immigration can be changed. You've talked about people first immigration,
what is that. It's a concern with the well being
of immigrants as people, seeing them first and foremost as
(26:57):
people that share the same hopes and dreams and aspirations
as all of us. Obviously, like everybody I know. Look,
the country has borders. Every country is going to enforce
their borders. We're going to have immigration laws that we
do enforce. But as we talked about, too oftentimes our
(27:17):
policies get overinfluenced by this demonization, this otherization. I have
often said that if we're not careful in the United States,
that in twenty or thirty years, we're going to be
begging people to immigrate to this country like other countries are. Yeah,
I mean, you have that challenge in other countries. And
that's not a put down of our country. I mean,
(27:40):
we love our country and I believe this is a
wonderful nation in many ways. But we also have to
be realistic. When you look into the future and you
set policy for the future, and a sound immigration policy
that allows enough immigrants to come and work their magic
on the country like they always have, that's in the
best interests of all of us. I'm always trying to
(28:02):
figure out a way to understand the perspectives in the
experiences of different peoples, and one of the way in
which I try to do that is pathways through my
own experience. So one of the ways I think about
undocumented immigrants on a path to citizenship. You tell me
whether this is a wrong way of thinking about it,
particularly for Black Americans. There was a time two hundred
(28:26):
years ago in this country where you had people who
fled violence on plantations, and we're living where I live
now in Boston, but because they had fled violence, they
had to almost live in the shadows. And it seems
to me that Americans today can understand how precarious the
(28:48):
lives of those black folks who fled violence, who fled
slavery to freedom were, but they can't seem to see
how precarious the lives of undocumented people are today. Do
you think that's an app analogy. Certainly. I think that,
of course slavery is something different from what people are
facing in these Northern Triangle countries, But that fleeing from
(29:11):
danger and that common aspiration to find safety and to
find opportunity and a better life, and to be able
to go to sleep at night knowing that your children
are okay and that they're going to have a future
better than they would have if you stayed where you were.
I think that's a common experience of yesterday and today,
(29:38):
and in those different contexts too. I think you're right
that I don't think most Americans think of it that way.
You know, in this country, frankly, as you've pointed out,
and no better than I do. I mean, we have
people rewriting that narrative about slavery that don't want to
acknowledge what happened, right, And we've had that since it happened.
(29:59):
And if we're not even willing to acknowledge what we
know happened in our own country, what are we going
to do When we don't have that common ex experience
or know have insight into these other countries that people
are coming from. It becomes even easier to dismiss that
as hey, look, you know, I don't know what's going
(30:21):
on over there, but they should make it in their
own country. One of the things I put out there,
which oddly enough actually I think resonated because Americans would
rather that it be handled over there, was this twenty
first century martial plan for Central America, working with those countries,
(30:44):
investing in those countries in the right way so that
people could find safety and opportunity at home instead of
having to make the dangerous journey to the United States. Wait,
so you're telling me that the people who rail against
the quote invasion aren't also seeking to push a marshal
plan is that it just doesn't sound right to me. Well,
(31:05):
now I think people are more willing to support that.
Some of the don't want to support any of it, right, No,
that's what I'm saying. So you have some folks who
wouldn't even support that plan. Yeah, I mean at the
same time they rail against people coming. That's right. I
think they just the way they want to solve the
problem is just keep them out and as some said,
literally shoot people at the border. And that sounds like,
(31:29):
what are you talking about? But remember Trump was talking
in those terms. He would give life to that. He
unleashed those kinds of feelings and ideas and gave them sustenance.
But I think that when you make policy, you have
to take into account not just the people that agree
with you, but also the people that disagree with you.
And when it came to twenty first century martial plan
(31:52):
for Central America, I mean what I wanted to see
was these human beings able to live their lives in
safety and with opportunity and be okay. And for others
that was I just don't want them on my doorstep,
and I want to at the board of the United
States and coming to the United States. But look, we
(32:13):
can find common ground there in the sense that I
want to make it possible for them to be able
to be happy and fulfilled where they are as well.
Maybe for a different reason, but that part of it
was interesting to me during the campaign. What it seems
like to me is you're advocating for the United States
to ensure that people in Northern Triangle as well as
(32:36):
across the world are treated humanely in their own countries,
and then when they come and if they come to
United States, they're treating humanely here too. That's true. Why
is that such a radical idea? Yeah? No, I mean
it's not radical. And the United States, that's what we
pride ourselves on, or have for a long time, right,
I mean, we were the champions of human rights on
(32:57):
the one hand, but then on the other hand, we
have over the years failed in so many ways, and
it's been this process of trying to get better and better,
and we have made a lot of agress, for sure,
but sometimes you still have that duality there, exactly. Well,
Secretary Castro, is truly an honor to talk to you
(33:18):
and to learn from you, and indeed for this community
to hear just how critically important it is for us
to have a people first immigration system whereby people are
not considered the problem, whereby we're thinking about ways to
change policies and practices to treat people humanely no matter
(33:39):
where they come from around the world. And I just
want to thank you for your insight and advocacy on
your voice on this extremely American of all issues, Doctor Kenny,
Thank you so much for having me, and thank you
for teaching all of us. The contribution that you've made
has been enormous and I'm very grateful for it. Good
(34:00):
to talk to you. Of course, many of us have
heard the infamous lines of the sonnet on the pedestal
of the Statue of Liberty. Give me your tired, your poor,
your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, the wretched refuse
of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless tempest tossed
(34:24):
to me. I lift my lamp beside the golden door.
Edward de la Boulay, a staunch abolitionist, was the person
who first proposed at France give a monument to the
United States to celebrate the two countries shared commitment to democracy.
La Boulay wanted the statue to commemorate the Thirteenth Amendment's
(34:47):
emancipation of enslaved people after the Civil War. French sculptor
Frederic August Bartoldi initially modeled a Lady Liberty who grasped
broken shackles in her left hand. She was supposed to
represent the abolition of slavery. However, the Northerners and Southerners
tasked with raising funds with the statue's pedestal convinced the
(35:11):
artists to downplay the celebration of black freedom and instead
emphasize the friendship between the United States and France. Are
Toldy obliged and placed the shackles in pieces at Lady
Liberty's feet, largely hidden under her robe. The shackles around
(35:34):
immigrants are no longer hidden under the robe of the
Statue of Liberty. Immigrants are being openly shackled. Americans are
learning the ways in which their own descendants were shackled
when they immigrated to the United States. Immigrants from the
Global South have endured the shackling for decades. Based on
(35:55):
his own family's experiences as Mexican Americans, Julian Castro proposed
a people first immigration system that focuses on building communities
and liberty instead of shackles and walls. We must continue
to fight for freedom until everyone can breathe free and
(36:17):
cross the threshold of the Golden Door as promised by
Lady Liberty. We must fight for an anti racist immigration system.
We must be anti racist. The Anti Racist is a
(36:40):
production of Pushkin Industries and our Heart Media. It is
written and hosted by doctor ebramax Kindy and produced by
Alexandra Garratton with associate producer Brittany Brown. Our engineer has
been Talladay, Our editor is Julia Barton and our shore
runners Sasha Mathist. Our executive producers are the Time Mullad
and Mio Lobell. Many thanks to Tammy Win and doctor
Heather Sandford at the Center for Anti Racist Research at
(37:01):
Boston University for all of the help at Pushkin. Thanks
to Heather Fame, Carlie Mcgleori, Sean Schnars, and Jacob Wiseberg.
You can find doctor Kendey on Twitter at d r
Abram and on Instagram at Abram x K. You can
find Pushkin on all social platforms at Pushkin Pods. You
can sign up for our newsletter at pushkin dot fm
(37:22):
to find more Pushkin podcasts, Listen on the Our Heart
Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you like to listen.
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