Bluff Creek Plotts with Steve Herd

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to
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(00:49):
Clay Nucom and I'm the host of the Bear Hunting
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about tactics here conservation, but will also bring you into
some of the wildest country on the planet chasing their

(01:18):
Welcome to the Bear Hunting Magazine Podcast. We're gonna be
doing a couple of episodes here with Houndsman and their Hounds.
On this podcast, we're meeting with my good friends Steve Hurt.
Steve is seventy years old and they've they're pictures of
Steve with with the plot hounds when he was four
years old. Steve has been around in his whole life
and he has has been instrumental and is that one

(01:40):
of the well the main guy aside from his late father,
in developing the Bluff Creek strain of big game and
coon hounds. So this is super interesting podcast. Steve is opinionated.
I like that. I like a guy that's confident enough
to talk about truly what he believes. And so you're
gonna hear Steve uh talk about his hounds and and

(02:04):
he's proud of him and he's dedicated a good part
of his life to breeding these dogs, and he's he's
he's had dogs all over the country on every available
type of game, and he's got he's got a lot
of credential. You're gonna enjoy this podcast with Steve. And
I just want to say that I I gravitate towards

(02:24):
people who know who they are and that know what
they have and so sometimes confidence and boldness can be
mistaken for arrogance, and that's not the case here in
my opinion. So you're gonna you're gonna like this podcast
with Steve for sure. I want to bring your attention
where we're talking about houndsman. I want to bring your

(02:46):
attention to the Houndsman XP podcast. Chris pal and Steve
Fielders good friends of ours, and they started a podcast
several months ago. They they produced several well, I think
they've produced. Uh, I don't know how any podcasts. Eight
to tend podcast. Hey, these guys are dedicated houndsmen and
their podcast is all about hounds. They're talking to coon hunters,

(03:08):
they're talking to breeders, they're talking to big game houndsman.
They're talking to guys from the East, from the West,
and uh, it's a great podcast. If you enjoy hounds,
you need to be subscribed to these guys. Lastly, I
want to talk about our friends at the Western Bear Foundation.
The Western Bear Foundation is representing hunters and bear hunters

(03:31):
specifically in the hot bed of the West where there's
a lot of conflict mitigation that is going on between
those that do not understand our ways as hunters and
are against us and those that simply don't have an
opinion about hunting but need to. And the hunters it's

(03:52):
like there's three different groups, and Western Bear Foundation is
is putting a great face on hunters and creating a
new narrative. Western Bear Foundation their gold is to keep
bears on the landscape and they're doing things with the
finances that they produce, and just their mission is to
UH is to keep hunters in the woods and bears

(04:13):
on the landscape. And Joe con Dallas out there does
a great job. There a membership driven organization, nonprofit and
if you're a bear hunter, even if you don't live
out there, I encourage you to be a member of
the Western Bear Foundation. Check them out at the Western
Bear Foundation dot org. Lastly, we're gonna, like I said,

(04:36):
we're gonna be doing three podcasts. This first one with
Steve Heard about Bluff Creek plots. The second podcast with
Steve Heard is about breeding big game hounds, which will
be released a week after this one. The third podcast
about hounds, we we went to California. We went to
the Greenhorn Mountains of California to interview Advance Advanced seventy

(04:58):
eight years old, and he just wrote a book called
Trained by a Hound Dog. It's an incredible, incredible book
about his twenty five year career as an outfitter outfitting
for bear and mountain lions in California, Montana, Nevada, and Utah.
Incredible man, incredible story. So get ready for the next
couple of hound episodes. And hey, if you're not a houndsman,

(05:21):
listen to these. I feel like it's important for all
of us to get behind all legal methods of hunting
and to stay and how if we're gonna stand, we're
gonna have to stand together. And I think you'll you'll
enjoy learn about hounds, learn about these guys and here
and the passion that they have for doing what they do.

(05:47):
Welcome to the Bear Honey Magazine podcast. This is a
this is a pretty special day for me to get
to sit with uh a man that really has had
quite a bit influence in my life the last few
years through hounds, and that's Steve Heard and he's got
with his son Colton Heard. Um we are we're at

(06:09):
a truck stop not far from Stillwell Water, Still Water, Oklahoma,
and uh we live about six hours apart, and UH,
I was gonna come all the way to see it,
and he said, Steve said, well I'll meet you. So
that's what we did. But I'll give a little introduction Steve,

(06:30):
with my history with you. That what we're gonna be
talking about, um, and then I'm just gonna turn it
over to you and you can just talk all you
want for two hours. Now. Now, Steve, Steve heard is
A is a and this is the truth. A legendary
iconic Plot breeder. He and his dad. His father's passed away.

(06:51):
But Steve, Steve's how old are you? Steve six seventy
years old? Okay, Steve seventy years old. Steve has been
And this is what we're gonna get into, is your
history with Plot big game hounds. UM. But uh, the
breed strain of Bluff Creek Plot is what Stephen Colton

(07:11):
have have perpetuated. Yes, it's a family line of dogs.
And let me just give a little bit of a
little bit of context for people who may not understand
big game Hounds or may not even understand what's going on.
But so the Plot hound is a is a u
k C registered breed of hound. UM. And but inside

(07:34):
of this breed there's different strains. There's many different strains. Yeah,
and so and so like big game hunters, coon hunters,
hog hunters. You would know if your plot man, you
would know, you know what strain is better for what
for what right and and and there would be like
these household names like Bluff Creek and and where we

(07:56):
kind of varied off most people was so many people
were breeding straightly for bear, strictly for hoges. I would
name names, but I won't yet or or you know,
or or strictly for night champion coon dogs. And we
believed still do that you can take a really well
bred dog if it's bread right and you and you
give them the opportunities. We believe that a well bred

(08:17):
dog can be used on all game, and we have
the dogs to prove it. And a lot of people do. Okay,
we're not. We're not the only ones. But I'm just
saying that that some people believe that when I bread
grand night champion dogs into my bear dogs, that I
would lose some bear qualities. And what I did was
I increased a lot of the qualities of intelligence and

(08:38):
locating that people had lost by breeding only for bear
or only for hoges. And and and when you on
once again in cats in the mountains, are in Bobcats.
Anywhere you you need a locating building and a lot
of people have bread that out and we intentionally use
the intelligence and the locating ability to to solidify our

(08:58):
strain and make it make it so that people everfore
we're looking for can And also, you know, people call
me for hog dog, we have them. If you want
a cat dog I had, you know, we've had them
and our bear dog. Yes, I mean, I'm not saying that.
I'm not saying that other strange don't. But we but
we specialized in having dogs that could you could just
turn loose. And people say, well, how did you do

(09:20):
you tell that dog when you go to Bearer Country
that that that's what you're supposed to run? For some reason,
we've been really lucky or something, and we go hog
hunt country, we run hogs. If we go to Bearer country,
we run bear We go coon hunting out a U k.
C Hunt, we hunt coon. So and it's maybe it's
intelligence again. Well, we let me give a little bit

(09:40):
of context too of of how I know you Okay,
four years ago I think so, Well, it was about
four years ago we started to do the legendary Bearhound
series and Barony magazine. You were the first one, Steve.
Somebody told me, well, I saw a picture of bear
Path Gunner. Uh somewhere. It wasn't in the magazine. I

(10:02):
think it was on social media and uh. And it
was just this beautiful picture of this big plot dot
well not a big plot dog, beautiful plot dog with
a big bear. And somebody said, this is a legendary dog.
And I I said, man, I'd like to write an
article about that dog. I didn't know that dog from Adam,
not from Adam. I've sent a few messages and I said,
do y'all know anything about this bear Path Gunner dog?

(10:25):
And four people at the same time, said Steve Hert.
I mean it was like messages coming in from every direction.
And uh. And somebody gave me your phone number. I
called you. I said, I'd like to write an article
about this dog. I want to say that since that time,
the Legendary Bearhound series in our magazine has been highly successful.
Fantasy I think we've done twenty six articles. Uh so

(10:47):
I think we're on twenty six right now. But so
let's let's just start right there. And Colton, I want
you to jump into because you've been around these dogs
your whole life. And uh, um, but we can well okay,
then I'm getting ahead of myself yourself. He he. We
wrote this article, I got to know you, and uh

(11:11):
two or three months after the article came out, we
were looking for a dog, and honestly, we weren't even
looking for a hunting dog. It was just the kids
were of age. We hadn't had a dog in several years,
and I thought, man, it'd be cool just to have
just a hound dog that could just be our pet,
because I'm an old coon hunter. But I had been
out of coon hunting for twenty years. I really had

(11:33):
and had no plans of getting back into it. Um.
I called you, said, Steve, I'm looking for a dog
that we could just I mean, I don't even know
why I called you, because it was stupid to call you,
because you don't you don't give You don't sell dogs
of people that don't really hunt. These aren't pets. But
I called you and you said, man, will you tell

(11:53):
me what you said? Well, you you told me what
that you were looking for. And I said, you know what,
you have kids, and and I'm I just love it.
I mean, this is this is how some people get
a dog. For me, is that they have young kids
and they're wanting those kids to see something for real
for the first time maybe. And so I decided, you
know what, I had a really well bred puff and
I knew how what this pup probably do on Okay,

(12:15):
should have went to a bear hunter, probably, but I
just kind of knew what this was gonna do. And
she was kind of a leftover from litter. She was
six months old, but she was already doing the right stuff.
So I said, you know what, I have one. I
have one right here, and I'm just gonna go ahead
and move you up on the list and let you
you know, if you want this this dog, will you
meet me and and we'll you know, we'll meet and

(12:35):
you take this dog. And I think she's going to
be exactly what you're looking for, not only as a
friend for the family, but also as one of the
best hunting dogs that you've seen. Well, and let me
tell you what I tell everybody, Steve, at that time,
I hardly knew you. Okay, this is several years ago,
and we met you and Colton was there, and uh yeah,
Randy was there and Uh, here's this little you know,

(12:57):
skinny plot dog six months old and you told me,
you told me everything that that dog would be doing,
and when it would be doing it. You were like,
nine months old. It's gonna start doing this and this
and this, and you're gonna have to run it with
pretty good coon dogs or it's gonna it's it's gonna
do under the tree. You're gonna have to and and
I walked away, and I'm gonna be honest with you.

(13:18):
I said, if this dog does half of what Steve
heard said it's gonna do, I'm gonna be happy. And
I mean to the day that dog did everything that
you said and let me just jump to the chase.
It became to us a legendary hound. Ferns five years old. Now,
wells should be five and November it should be five.
And November we started hunting her. We hunted her a

(13:41):
hundred knights the first uh. And again we weren't even
looking for a coon dog. It was just like we
started hunting and the kids started loving it, and Fern
was tree and coons and doing good stuff and we
just had the time of our life. And it, uh,
I mean, really, my kids will never forget that when
when we went from the time she was uh nine
months old till the time she was about two years old,

(14:02):
we just hunted the hair off of her. Here, here's
what I was trying to costion you. If you go
hunting with somebody that has other breeds of dogs and
little Fern opens first, or a plothhound opens first, a
lot of people immediately say the pups gotta be running trash.
But you know what that they she was bred to
have a better nose than those other dogs. She just
simply was and and and and and also she was

(14:25):
read to be independent. She was read just to not
have to have somebody show her how to start to
do something. She was She was just naturally. Everything is
supposed to be natural. And that's reason I've never owned
a shocking color. I've never shot. We don't shock our dogs,
and we want everything to be natural. If you have
to shock them off of this and shock him off this,
then the next puppies that they have, you're shocked them
off and shocked them off. So we just let them

(14:46):
do natural training and it worked. It's still working. Yeah,
I've been doing this since. You know, if you want
to back up sixty six years. Now, Well, that's a
great place to start. So I've told my story. Tell
me about your history with Buff Creek. Po Okay. We're
sitting there in the house and Dad got a True
magazine and in it was a story called the the

(15:07):
Hounds of Plot Valley, and my dad sit down and
read this this thing. He was just so intrigued. And
then he's tried to read it to my mom and
she was, uh, huh, yeah, how she was doing the
dices or whatever. But I, with my big ears, I
was sitting there just thinking, oh my gosh, I love
these stories. A dog that has the nose of bloodhound,
the speed of a grayhound, the grid of of a

(15:28):
of a pit bull, the intelligence of a colleague. This
is what they actually said, you know. Yeah, I mean
that they were all exaggerations, but but so much more.
And Dad said, I've got to have one. I've got
to have one of My mom said yeah, sure, and
so so he was just he just had to have him.
So there was two. There was two Plot Hounds for
sale locally, and Dad went about both of them, and

(15:49):
both of them were decent dogs, but they still weren't
quite what he was looking for So he started writing
letters to people in North Carolina, Arkansas, Uh, any place
in there where may be there might be some kind
of Plot influence. Well, he just put a man's name,
you know, Clyde Chiller, Cody that here, and and and
and a town, no zip code, no nothing. But we we

(16:10):
didn't happen back then, okay. Well, most of the letters
were returned, but sometimes he would get a letter back.
And all of a sudden he started hearing from some
of those old people Rags Nichols, and some of those
old Clyde Burnett and some of those old timers that
were part of the Plot family either through lineage, you know,
through being cousins or whatever, or had got some of
the early stock. So Dad said what he was looking for,

(16:32):
he wanted a true plotoun Okay. So after cutting through
the chief and what year would this have been? This
this would have been nineteen spring of fifty do probably okay?
And I would have been four years old, okay. And
so finally he found out what he wanted. He wanted

(16:53):
the bloodline of smoke in Cubby, which would have been
like Smiths, North Carolina, Tom or Nickel Stormy. But then
on the bottom side, he wanted plots Fanny and at
a lady plot because all good dogs at the time
that that the super dogs went back to lady plot. Okay, Now,
at this time to plots just became uk C registered.

(17:17):
I think, yeah, forty seven I was borning for you. Yeah,
and so this is kind of like a new breed
of But they were established in the in the southern
Appalachians in North Carolina. They had a terrible reputation other
places around the states because people were reading brittle dogs
that had no plot let in them and sending them
off his plotound trying trying to Okay, So anyway, Dad,

(17:38):
The main thing that that Dad learned, and the main
thing that I got up picked up then and still
carry with me now is don't don't don't take the phonies.
Make sure make sure that what you get is the
real true plotoun So they said, well, what pedigree are
you looking for? I mean, he asked them, what should
I be looking for it? They told him. So all
of a sudden he opens up Full Crime magazine. There's
a little bit ad in there from Rube Rosander from

(18:02):
from New Mexico, and it says one one plot mail
fifteen months old, I believe, rear Grand Chief, and then
one plot female rear Grand Trouble, her sire North Carolina,
Tom her mother plots Fanning, and my dad just, oh
my god, oh my god. So he had some surplus
World War two weapons, him and him and a cousin,

(18:24):
and they sold those and immediately sent sixty dollars and
fifty cents or whatever it was down at to buy
those two dogs. Okay, and within about two weeks I
was there, walked out of the house and Dad had
just got back from the train station in Protection, Kansas,
and two big heavy wooden crates set him on the
ground and out step for real, like from where the
red fern grows, exactly an out step rear Grand Trouble

(18:46):
into my heart started founding, Oh my god, I've never
seen a dog that looked like that. Look at this thing.
And if you see the pictures you understand what I'm
talking about hand right then was was the start that
day was a startup. So we took her hunting by herself.
The male dog would not hardly run it. He was
wells bred, and he would not hardly run a coon
at all, okay, a raccoon. And but we took Trouble

(19:09):
by ourself and she went up the creek that took me.
I followed with him right there where you live, Oh yeah,
right out right on Bluff Creek. And she went straight
up Bluff Creek, had a track, ran a coon down,
went the hole, got it, pulled it up, killed it,
just just like that. Dad said, Yep, that's what they're
supposed to do that. That's what he's supposed to That's
what they're supposed to do right there. So so and
on that day and Bluff Creek plots where yeah, they

(19:31):
were steff and he used the name Herds for the
first for the first three letters, and then he thought
it would just be kind of cool. We lived on
Bluff Creek, so he changed some by Bluff Creek by
Ozark Chief to Trouble Letter, Bluff Greek Drive, Bluff Greek
Cindy Sue, Bluff Creek Leader. You know all those dogs
okay on that letter. So so and uh we had

(19:52):
and said where you're Protection cans is, Maybe we have already.
I'm I'm a losing track of you. You guys live
in Protection, Kansas, So Bluff Creek is in Kansas. Oh
oh yeah, oh yeah, it just comes around on the
west side of Protection, Kansas and it goes right through
our farm. Uh. If you have a real good arm,
you can throw a baseball from my house into Bluff Creek, Okay.

(20:12):
And and all of our pups, every pup that we've
ever had, including Fern and Bold and all that letter
and every pup we've ever had, including when I was little,
my dad would let me take the pup that we had,
puffs running loose, and when we would take a twenty
two single shot rifle my brother Stanley and go down
and sometimes three raccoons in the middle of afternoon with
those block pups, you know, and we shoot it out
to him and dragged home by the tail, you know.
Sometimes they weighed ten pounds or seven or something. But

(20:36):
so that but we've always been right there. And and
so your dad was wanting to get these dogs for
what well, because he was he was coon hunting dogs
from from Missouri. And they were high tan dogs. Okay,
they were black saddle with black with with with yellow
trim Okay, buckskin trim buck and Lady was their name.
So he but he wanted that. But he also because

(20:57):
they were bare bread, he wanted to sin puffs, sell pups.
You know, everybody got a little everybody that farm back,
they need a little extra money. And so he wanted
to be able to sellpups. He was hunter, oh yeah,
oh he could hunt it hard. But from the beginning
he had in his mind that he wanted to send
But but I hate to even tell this, but I'm
gonna tell you. My dad was invited by from people

(21:18):
from Washington and from North Carolina and all everybody has
always invited to go bear hunting. And he never got
to leave the farm to go want bear hunting one
single time. But in nineteen fifty he bread trouble in
the in the spring, thinking the fall anyway, he read
the first the first time he bread to to to
the chief dog, and those pups were mediocre to have

(21:41):
fair dogs. And he sent them maybe to Nebraska places
and have made really good coon dog. But then then
from then on he started breeding for bear dogs. And
he bread to Owen's heavy to Ozark Chief and to
hurt Smoky, and and all those pups went to bear country.
And Dad, I mean, it's funny people from Kentucky and
from Tennessee and from North Carolina. We're buying pups from

(22:02):
Kansas to go bear hunting with. And we always thought
that was kind of odd, but but Dad had the blood.
Dad had that that special. So was that the first
litter that the dogs started excelling on big games? Oh,
just immediately and once again he read a big Creek lady. Uh.
Those dogs went to Michigan and places and and they
were they were way above average quality. But Dad was

(22:25):
looking for something. He wanted those dogs like like in
that magazine Arcle. He wanted to be fat, colder nose, faster,
harder treers, harder fighter. He wanted the epitome of what
a plotoun should be. And when he read Ozark Chief,
obviously I think that would have been the third cross
heard Smoky. Those dogs went up to to to Washington
State place like that, and they all excel. Landry's Captain

(22:48):
kid was one of those, and they became his Dad's
reputation started growing immediately with because people say, this is
the best dog I've ever seen in my life. And
Toby Harroll up there in the best bear hunter at
that time in Washington State. Was he bought two or
three of and he said, these are these are better
than anybody else has he said. I went down to
I drove the natural. But when we get into the

(23:11):
breeding article later, I have some more, some deep, deep
theories about why that they. I mean, if if you
want to stack a gold you can't go get a
bunch of red bricks and then paint them gold. You
have to keep stacking gold to make a gold stack.
I mean you you, if you ever, if you ever
lose even one generation of that strain that you're working on,

(23:34):
then then it's so hard to try to go back
because you can't find it. We nobody in this day
and age has the time or the patience or maybe
the ability to start a brand new breed of dog.
And so we we're relying clear back on those guys
from the forties, back in the thirties and the forties,
that that that lived in those mountains and bread those dogs,

(23:55):
and they didn't keep cold. They couldn't afford to feed
it up. They could not afford defeated us. So they
kept the very best and they bread to the very best,
and they had to walk over the mountain, they would
do it. And if those puffs didn't turn out, you
know what they did, they got rid of See what
I'm saying so, so by ninety seven they had they
had they had built twelve dogs. That's what the old

(24:16):
timers would say that there was about twelve dogs that
were the epitome of anything that plot had ever been
or would ever be. Okay, And and certain people caught
right on Cliburnett kind of started a lot of it.
Hacks deal caught on every Willams caught on. My dad
caught on that if you would breed just a very
tight circle around those very very very best dogs, that

(24:38):
you could always have that kind of that caliber dog.
But if you let down your standards and bread to
something lower, so go ahead. The the the problem is
is that people you would think, i mean someone that
knew nothing about big game dogs would just think that, oh,
you got a bared dog, well, it's gonna produce a
bared dog. But that's not that true. I mean, even

(24:59):
inside of good lines of bare dogs, you still have
a lot of misses. Well, you want as consistency, and
that's one thing that you guys have that found is
how to consistently produce dogs. Is that right? Yeah, exactly exactly,
And And and the funny thing is Dad Dad was

(25:19):
one of the Dad and Ever were every Williams, where
two of the people that went and went against the green,
the big breeders back then. We're trying to tell you
make sure that you bread unrelated dogs. Well immediately you
and I I don't know whether it than to mention
you know, some of the old timers or not, but
but there were certain people that had as good a

(25:43):
bloodlines as what Dad had Ever had, or Clamburnett had
or or or Rags Nichols had, but they immediately would
breed that line to something that was not related, and
immediately immediately they lost even inside of breeding it to
a good dog. That's what you're saying that if the
dog could walk on water, puppies are still gonna see.
That's not intuitive, like you wouldn't. So you're saying breaking

(26:05):
outside of those family lines even in the same Yeah,
you just can't do it. You're just you're just it
a man from Sweden that that doesn't really believe in
the line breeding stuff. You might end up get to
hear this, jan If you hear this, Um, he didn't
really believe in the line breeding, but he but they
said to be to become prepotent, which means that you
produced way above the normal of the breed. Uh that

(26:28):
he wants somebody wanted to. Has there ever been a
prepotent dog that was not tightly bred? And no, there's no.
It has to be in order to to produce the
Morgan horse breed JP Morgan. They in order to they
had this one horse that was perfect. Well, the only
way that they could reproduce him was to breed him

(26:48):
to his sister and then breathe that daughter back to
the stallion. And they intensely bred for a Morgan horse
from one horse. They just kept rereading right around closer,
and and that's how they built a Morgan breed. Well,
the best to the Plothhouns were built built, say bread,
the same way. And I found out, you know, talking
to old Plot family friends years and years and years ago.
The Plot family would bring a brother to a sister

(27:09):
or a dad to his daughter just immediately, and they
did it a lot, but they sometimes didn't exactly tell
it that way, you know what I'm saying. I mean,
sometimes they acted like they didn't They didn't lie, they
just didn't have the actual names. N you didn't know
they were brother and sister. So yeah, but well but
the only way to establish a strain and to hang
onto a straight right. Now, we you know, we just
go out there in our yard. We can breed any

(27:30):
dog in our yard to any dog in our yard,
and we don't feel one bit ashamed of doing it.
And you've been doing it for sixty years, and we've
been doing and it's not and we know what it's producing. Yeah,
I mean, I I have pictures in here of of
dog meetings and I brought them along intentionally just because
so you see something here and and I somebody says,

(27:52):
what's the best what's the best cross you ever made? Well,
Bouncer to Donnath do this and that was one of
my best. And then Bouncer to Sue, and then Candy
to Brigg and then it just goes on and on
and on. But once again, it's just the same dogs
all over doing just just you know, turning just the
same field. We just keep turning it over, planting a
new crop. I mean, we want well, hey, before we
get too far down that pretty let's go back to

(28:14):
the history of Bluff Creek. And what I'm interested in
is at what point did did you guys and people
begin to realize that or what point did Bluff Creek
begin to have a lot of successful big game and
lead me into bear Path Gunner. Okay, okay, okay, So gosh,
I get to think a minute. You can edit some
of this stuff, right, Okay. So Dad sold Bluff Creek

(28:37):
Drive to a man in Cherry Belle, Kansas. That man
sent drive to his uncle. You can't holme in to
all this because it's been a while, but he sent
it to his uncle who lived just west of Salem, Illinois,
where EVERYT Williams lived. EVERT Williams had already bred up
his strain of dogs for about three generations, and he

(28:57):
had Williams Blott Susie who was out of Nickel Stormy
and the Plots Fannie bloodline, the same thing as Trouble was.
So he had Suddenly he was looking for a male dog,
and he was as particular as any other human being
has ever been looking for a certain male dog. Tom
Telford happened to be over there and saw this dog
Bluff Creek Drive, okay, and he said, ever, I found

(29:18):
a dog, so let's go. So they went over and
looked the dog, and I have a picture of every
standard front the dough and this was the epitome of
what a plotoun should looked like. And Edwards saw the pedigree,
he said, oh my god, this is the perfect dog
right here. This is exactly what I'm looking for. So
he took him home with him and bred Susie, and
it produced a litter of pups that is can still
considered by most people who already know as the greatest

(29:41):
litter of plot pups ever born. Okay, and that would
be a weimsplot John Welliamsplot Chap Iron Mountain, Moon Cascade, Candy,
four hundred bear Kills uh uh uh, Mr Roks and
Nancy Female um of Ursus beams Blot, Jody. The entire
litter became famous just bear dogs, I mean the best

(30:05):
bear dogs anywhere from from from one cross. And so
those that letter went out and a lot of other
strains were developed. The Earth's Strange started with Jody. The
Weems Strange started with that. Dennis Paul since Iron Mount
Strange started with that cross. Mr Marks Strange start with
that cross. And Burton the Burton Boys, Penny Female, their
whole line started with that with up from that cross.

(30:27):
So a little bit later it was decided by Dennis
Paulson and a few people that in order to try
to reproduce that the quality of that litter, you need
to take two people, two litters mates from that litter
and and and have the image like the grandparents or something. Okay.
So this is when I kind of came in and

(30:48):
I knew exactly, just like my dad knew what he
was looking for, I knew exactly what I was looking for.
I had the weems John dogs. How what's the time
frame here? How old would you have been? Well, I
was the last time we talked for years old? Yeah,
I yah. Once again, I'm just I'm just following because
I didn't have any input whatsoever. Okay. And then when
I got out of college, I graduated and called it

(31:10):
in sixty eight, and then I went I was married
and stuff. And then by about nineteen seventy I started
coon hunting and I found I got dogs that were
just nothing. I mean, there were plots, they were brintle,
they were brindle dog, and they were they just weren't
worth not a gallon of dog food. They just weren't.
So Dad said, Steve, I'm gonna help you out. So

(31:31):
he called every said, ever, what do you have and
every so well, I got a pup up here, he's
out of your dogs on top and your dogs on
the bottom. Got iron mountain moon on the bottom, coal
creek bouncer that dad had raised the mom of and
ween slot John out of Bluff Creek drive on top.
So I'll send that pup. So he sent that pup
down to me. And that was the Judd dog that
i've this kind of famous from ripping the front of the

(31:52):
the of the of the the doghouse off and dragging
it to the creek. And I started hunting him, and
no I didn't I turn him to loos and I
followed him through the woods and heat. I had treated
like six coons that fall until I got him. And
once he broke off the front of the doghouse and
treat those five cons, then he treated ninety three more

(32:12):
coons in a like forty five days, he by himself.
You gotta tell us the story of them ripping the
dog box. I know exactly. But but but okay, so
right there, right there, I laying on the floor, I
had this great big Somebody sent me the big long pedigh.
I couldn't afford it. Somebody sent me the big long pedigree.
I think Dennis Balls of this of this cross, and

(32:34):
I thought, okay, this is the most incredible dog that
I have ever witnessed in my life. This is what
the Plot family was breeding for. This is what every
Plot hoound should be. This this extreme intense dog that
could be could be treeing on a tree with electric
fence tied to it, and it would knock him in
the water five to six times, and he would get

(32:55):
up and continue tree and it would knock him in
the water. He was in the water, and and all
the other dogs were in to pick up because they
couldn't stand that that kind of pressure. And he would
not leave that tree. And I thought, somehow, the rest
of my life I have to dedicate this nineteen seventy one. Somehow,
the rest of my life I have to dedicate myself
if I'm gonna keep these dogs to breeding dogs exactly
like that dog. So he was. And by the way,

(33:16):
by now my dad is kind of stepped back. He
has done his job. He bought me that dog. Okay,
so it's my it's my decision to to breed around Judge.
So Judge Daddy was Weamsplot dog. By ways Plot John,
his mother was Iron Mountain Cricket by Cold Creek Bouncer
who was mother was Tracy Cindy Sue, who was litermatee

(33:39):
to Left Creek Drug. Okay, so I yes, he's certainly
the story. He's heard these stories so many times. He'll
get taught pretty soon because we'll have him tell you
how he picked out his his start up his dogs, Okay,
and he did really well. Okay, So so I took,
I took. I had wayams plot John on the bottom.

(33:59):
So I looked and looked and looked, and I found
an ugly old dog in West Virginia named being something
Carpenter's Ben, and I traded a little trading and I
ended up getting him. And he was ugly little dog,
but he was bred better than any other dog in
the world at the time as far as the plodhounds concern.
And he was at a Grand Night Champion Colt Creek Bouncer,
Grand Knot Champion, Iron Mountain. Moon Moon's daddy was Bluff

(34:22):
Creek Drive. Bouncer's mother was Tracy Sidy Sue. That was
the first cousin to first cousin, you know, cross right there.
So I took him and bred him to those two two.
I had to Williams plot John female and immediately, immediately,
first thing thing I did, I got very path Gunner,
all heart Millie, all those dogs from that limb, and

(34:43):
I got I got Bluff Creek. They came out of
that cross. They come out of that cross. Because that
and that's all I had to do. All I had
to do was look at that set of papers. And
all I had to do was duplicate. If I had
paper and find me, I'd write for you. All I
had to do was duplicate judge pedigree by flip flopping
it and used I used answer and cricket, we're brother
and sister, okay, And then I put Williams pluck John

(35:03):
in there. And just like they said to do. So
that litter is what produced barre path Gunner. That's that's fun.
And that's my first shot. That was my first attempt.
What year was one, I think nineteen seventy one. And
here I am a little otle kid down here in Oklahoma,
young guy, you know, thirty years old or whatever it
was forty eight plus anyway, and and uh I sent,

(35:25):
and I sent when I said, okay, Woody, would we
got a hold of me said, hey, hold on, let
me stop you right there. We gotta go back. You
said something that you got to tell, at least the
short version of the story of this dog ripping off
the dog box and going and treeing. Okay, Okay. When
I got Judd, I had three females. When I had
three females, and they were daughters and granddaughters of some

(35:47):
extremely highly advertised dogs coon dogs. Okay, but they didn't
have the Smith deal dogs in it. They didn't have
all that stuff in there. And the truth is I
wanted to hunt. I had a seven cell Texan flashlight
that I carried and twenty two rifle that I carried,
and I wanted I really wanted a good dog. So
they bought me this. Think. Well, I get Jud, I
go to which tall and every every weeam sent him.

(36:10):
Dad paid for a hundred dollars a hundred fidget doll
So I got to which to drive up to, which
to go in the big which to International Airport? And
there's a dog baying back there. What the hell? What
the heck? So I go. So I walked back down
there and there's this brintal dog, just wild eyed and
kind of I would have to say crazy okay, and
I said, my name's on the creek Steve heard. I said, like,

(36:32):
I said, my dog, And I said, what's going on?
And they said, well, said somebody was shipping out a
bunch of cats and they were over here in these
other crates, and said that ever since that dog got here,
he'd been smelling those cats and he has not shut
up one time. I thought, well, you think better. I
think that might be a good deal, and I I did.
I had a leash with me, and did he mean? He?
He took off running and janked me down and drugged

(36:54):
me around looking for those cats. He wanted those cats.
So I take this puff home. He's nine months old,
so I take him home, or he might have been
eight by that. I take him home and I put
him on this great, big old doghouse. Well, if a
squirrel goes by, or a cat roes bite, or another
dog or a bird, you know, oh my gosh, hold on,
this is my son, Brandon. Brandon, how are you doing doing? Brother?

(37:19):
Get we're talking about joke. Yeah, have a seat, okay, okay,
we go there, we go. Okay, So he's too wild,
I said, Dad's got a hundred and fifty invested, and
this was pretty good money back then, and I thought,
I can't, I can't just turn him loose, and you know,
go go go come up with him. Something's gonna happen
to So for about two weeks I hunted those females

(37:43):
and I couldn't. I could treat coon, but I had
to do with my flashlight to do it. So my wife,
uh Brandon's mom, hauled me a mile north and I
took the three females and I'm walking down the creek
with my seven cell and my flashlight, I mean, and
my gun and walk a little way, and all of
a sudden, I hear a dog treat and I mean,

(38:04):
I don't mean marking, I'm talking tree tree treat. So
I get I started. I kind of speed things up,
and pretty soon the females quit walking with me and
went down there at the tree. And of course they
didn't say anything when they got there, and so I
walk in there and holy cow, not only is there
some coons in the tree, but there's old Judd there
and Judge still tied to the front of his doghouse.

(38:27):
He's still tied to great big a frame. I mean,
I'm talking it was two before is in Plywood. In
it it weighed twenty pounds itself, just that door, and
he had he'd he went through some barbed wire fences
and was treated on this on and this is so
this is the dog nine months and he's never seen
a he's never he has never seen he has never seen.

(38:48):
He you think he winded the coons from fairhouse? Yeah, yeah,
they were. They came down bluff creed. He went on,
this is not this is in Pratt, Kansas, Okay. So
I thought, well, what the hell? And so he's drug
that you went and treated. I just want to clarify
just he was. He was chained and he went he
went from here to those trees, which is two hundred

(39:09):
yards away, and was treated solid. So with the doghouse
still tied just to the front, he ripped it off.
He ripped it off. So so I I unsnapped him.
I thought, well, I drugged the deal and you weren't
hunting this dog, because so we we went to we
went down on the neighbors and and we treated more
coons at night, and then from then on, I just

(39:32):
walked down the road and just turn him loose, and
which are ways he would win and wherever way he'd
stick his nose. Just follow him and he never ever ever,
he'd never quit. He never missed a night of training
a coon. You could. You could hunt him at noon.
You can hunt him at two o'clock in afternoon. We
can hunt him right now. And if he is alive
and we'll go tree, you could. He could find them,
just find them. He could win like that. I hate

(39:53):
to tell this, but I'm going to when when coon
highest prides were high, price coon hides price as were high,
and and I didn't have a lot of money, and
I would take an aluminum ladder and we would go
up to actually to Bluff Creek and I would throw
that over my shoulder and follow him and he would
tree a coon. He never missed. He just never been.

(40:14):
And if you tried to bobcat tree. That's why you
bring a ladder. Yeah, absolutely, tree and the dan tree
during the day while it came to sleep, and you'd
get up there and get the coon. Yeah, and you're
not supposed to, but but I did. And it's been
long enough to subset your limitations is run out, so
so uh, that's that's during the day. I know that

(40:35):
that's not illegal, is it? But anyway, and then you
try to bobcat hunting on on mules, on on horses.
We did, and you know, and he'd pull off and
go tree a coon and you'd go ahead and do
your bobcat hunt. Come back four or five hours later,
there is solid on that tree, all the bark rubbed
off of it. And then uh, at fifteen months old,
I was gonna go to plot days to show them

(40:55):
what a coon dog was. And we were bobcat hunting
North Protection, Kansas with my dad, and he he located
a coon. We took him back up, put him on
the bubcat track. He hit towtry licks and headed that
way and we heard him get run over by a car,
hit by sixty three shivy four or night. He about
think fifteen eighteen months old, probably eighteen months old, okay,

(41:16):
and so and so they we took him to vetinary
at which stall, and they said give him thirty days,
but he's not ever gonna walk again. And so on
the thirtieth day, he was laying behind my house and Pratt, Kansas,
and a cat walked by and he got up for
the first time in thirty days, got up and tried
to catch that cat. He drug a leg he had lost,
he lost his bells, were constantly running and everything. But

(41:40):
we took him to the vetinaryan and they cut one
leg completely off, so he was three legged. Part of
his tail was missing. He dripped stuff. And I took
him to Illinois. I should know, but I did. I
took him to Illinois and Everard said, well, I want
to I want to help that dog. And I said, well,
let's go. So Evert, me and a whole group of
guys took one of Everitt's dogs and him and we
walked away from days at Flora and we treat. We

(42:02):
struck five coons, treat three coons on the outside, and
uh and Judd got all the strikes, all the trees,
and we got back in there and we're sitting around.
We're sitting around the deal and ever we're shaking his
head and he said, Fellis, I'm gonna tell you something
right now. That dog, that three legged dog right there,
that kind of smells. He said, that is a better

(42:22):
dog than ninety five percent of the people in Illinois
have ever seen, have ever seen, said you just no one,
no one has a dog like that. So once again
he was. He was the dog that I started, That's yeah.
And see I had other I had and that was
d Creek jud yesterday and so so, and I knew
all I had to do was duplicate his pedigree just

(42:44):
like a stereo, you know, just like I mean, flip
something over and then just do it. And that's what
I did. And that's why I got his sister Sue
from every whams okay, and same bloodline there. And then
we then I found on it up in Wyoming and
she had the Sparlan's Jane and Ween fluted on the
bottom side. And I knew it would work. I just
knew it would in tuition already. Okay, So I got

(43:06):
in that in in that produced Bear Path Gunner. So
tell us about Bear Path Gunner. Okay. I it's hard
to talk about bear Peth Gunner without well I just
now told you the story of Judd. Okay, So, so
bear Peth Gunner in the bear dog world was what
Judd was in the condog By the way, I've never
seen a dog as good as Judge in my entire life.

(43:29):
My Candy female was it was probably as good as
a female. But I've never seen a male coon dog
in my life as a good a judge, I never
expect to ever see one again. Okay, So when I
hunted with Gunner, I was so flabbergasted. We we had
some days, we had nine dogs and yeah, I mean
it is a pup. Yeah. Well he was five and

(43:49):
a half months old, but he was already doing incredible
stuff at home. I mean, if some guys come up.
One night we went coon hunt, and I thought he
was too young to take five months old because I
had plenty of young dog. And we put the with
a coon on the ground that was cold, and when
we sitting here drink coffee for two hours, and when
we came out, we couldn't find Gunner or the coon.
And we went clear out to the barn and he
had drugged that coon too, about two hundred yards and

(44:11):
was still fighting him and fighting him and fighting him
and fighting him and you know, trying to get the
coon to come back to life so I could kick
his but you know, and he would stay treated on
a possum for ever, I mean just forever. So I
read Dad told me. Dad told me that this dog
was very special. And when he Dad had him, he
was born at my Dad's place in protection Cancer was
right where I live now, okay. And then Dad sent
him down to me about four and a half months old.

(44:32):
He was already doing incredible stuff. And so anyway we
sent him to Idaho, him and and a little female
named Betty. Uh to what he would be in Bovi
a lot at home, a bear fell out of the
tree and crushed Betty on her fourth on her fourth one.
So I sent him up Billy and Barney, and Billy
turned out to be the world famous all heart Millie,

(44:54):
who everybody said was ever been as good as as Gunner. Okay,
So those two dogs are right there. And then I
have a picture of him here somewhere. There was one
more male pupp at home and uh Wood. He sent
me down four dollars, I think, And I went to
the owner of him and said, what he wants that dog?
And here's this check. And the guy said, you can
take him with you, but you gave me the dog.
I'm giving you back giving you the check so I

(45:15):
could use it, you know. So so I went up
and hunting with him, and we treat bear every day.
He struck. Nobody could outstrike a bear hunter in Idaho. Yeah,
he was, yeah, but and and what he had some
health problems, and wood he did not he would not
get off the road, but he was he would. He
told you where everything was at. I was a young buck,
I was a rancher. I was in shape. I knew

(45:35):
how to shoot. And every day I would stay with
Woody and we would Gunner would strike and we would
drop him out. And then pretty soon it was just
a one dog deal. And Gunner I went talk. We
were hunting with good dogs out of Idaho, I mean,
you know, out of Idaho, Oregon, Washington, everywhere, and but
it was just always gonna. It was just always Gunner. Okay,
So what he would say, Okay, gunners around there fighting

(45:57):
a bear by himself, take this gun, go down there
and shoot the bear. I get down there. Gunners completely
by himself, got this bear, bade up my Becky female
had split off, and treat them, treat the daughter or
create a puff or a kitten. What did the heck
you call him a cub? I was, yeah, I couldn't
think of it any They split and Becky went and
treat the cub, and and Gunner bade this thing up.

(46:18):
And then when I got down with my gun. The
bear took off running, and then a local farmer picked
Gunner up off the tree. He treat this female. So
then the next day we treat a red bear way
off in the mountains, and Gunny what he said, here,
take the gun, go in there. If the bear slipped
six inches, shoot the son of a gun. And I
was in there forty three minutes before another dog showed up.

(46:41):
And then I was there that much longer before hunter
searching up he was, he was that much further. He
was forty minutes, forty minutes faster than everything. And then
the next day we we did it again. Becky went
with him on this next one and we treat, and
little Brandon was with me and lost a shoe on
the way in there. He can tell me if he
was here having to tell you this, right, and uh,
but he we hunted. I'm we hunted. We hunted. Every day.

(47:07):
We hunted with from eight dogs to forty dogs. And
one day, every single day in bear country, one dog
did all the strike and all the leading, all the treeing,
all the obeying. One dog. And it was Gunner. It
was him. And these other dogs were good dogs, but
they thought you had to trail a bear out and
gutter just cut across the country to the bear and
no one found it. Yeah, he got to see Brandon,

(47:29):
my son, Brandon. Uh, Brandon just showed up. He just
showed up. And he was with us. He was with
me when we went into Gunners tree Gunner and Becky
in there when you had to flip little shoes on. Yeah,
and I'm we're trying to hurry and I'm grabbing him
by the arm. And Brandon, how old were you eight?
Let him? Let him have your deal for a second. Okay,

(47:53):
it was a summer. So I got him by the
hand and we're running through the woods. He had a
little bit as but back then and pretty see, said dad.
And I'm dragging him at the mountain, said he said, Dad.
Pretty soon I stopped. Said what he said, My shoes
stuck in the water. Back So I run back down

(48:15):
there and his little sneaker is stuck in the mud
down there, and there's water running around it but not
into it. Pulled me straight out of my shoes, and
so we we stuck it back. I thought I thought
bear hunting. I didn't know he meant barefoot, you know.
And so and so we get to the tree and
and there's two You can't hear anything underneath three because

(48:36):
two dogs, Gunner and Becky are so loud that the
tree and together now there's six dogs. Maybe I was
lacking oxygen. I don't really remember. So anyway, I'm gonna
try to speed this story up a little bit. But anyway,
a bear hunter from California on a bear hunter a
lawyer with a seven millimeter magnum and a scope on.

(48:56):
He wiped all that Mount St. Helen's dust out the
end of that scope. You can see. He said, oh,
I can see's black. And I said, what he said,
just pullet trigger or not woody, But another guy said,
just pullet trigger. So he pulls the trigger. The bear
hits the ground, and the bear is on his back
and he is fighting dogs. And I an old coold
hunting trick. There's another big old boy there, and I
grabbed a branch and we stuck it in the bear's mouth,

(49:19):
just rammed it in, and then we stood on that
branch so that the bear would, you know. And then
somebody come up and popped him one more time. So
we skinned the bear out, and the whoever was guiding
the hunt of Orally. It couldn't have been some some
younger guy. It was either orally or or would he
because we were with what we yeah, we would What

(49:41):
do you made that? What he made that, it wouldn't
very went far, very far in there, So so what
do he said? Okay, everybody carries something, so okay, let okay,
so everybody, he said, nobody walks out of here bear handed. Okay,
no pun intendant on that. Nobody walks out of here

(50:01):
empty handed. And I look around and I see evidently
a bare pizzol is worth quite a bit, you know,
for for wealthy people stirring coffees or whatever. So I thought, well,
I didn't know that. I thought, well, if that's important,
I might as well carry that. I might know the
other parts, the two parts that I had some single

(50:23):
bells coming out. So I look back and I said, ottah,
mountain oysters. He said what he said, everybody had to
carry something, so he So that's been That's been my
claim to fame, is that I can walk out of
the mountains on my first bear hunt, got the bear by.
I'd say that it was pretty pretty uh insightful, but

(50:44):
that that being my first hunt, I that was probably
if I hunted twenty more times, that would probably be
the most memorable one. What we were talking about was
just how legendary bear path Gunner became. Yeah, and uh
and so it's pretty cool that you I meant a
little boy that it was neat and I, you know,
at the time I was I was an only child

(51:05):
at that age, and I had the dogs were kind
of my siblings. So we spent a lot of time
out playing in the yard and I'd go run from him,
and you know, they they'd track me down and I'd
tell Dad, well, this one's got you know, this one's
the fastest, this one when I'm hidden. And yeah. When
when when Eugene Walker ordered a puppy out of Gunner

(51:26):
and Becky and he told me that he wanted he said,
all I care is I want the fastest puppy in
the entire one bunch, because of here in West Virginia,
we kind of like fast dog. So Brandon went out
with his bicycle and we had a dead rabbit. We
shot a rabbit and we tied it on the back
there and I would open the cage and all the
maybe eight pup snidler anyway, So anyway. He so he

(51:51):
would and he would go a quarter of a mile
with that bicycle and and the hank pup Pocahona sank
always always lit everything else, all the way up, all
the way back, and so he got even. Yeah, and
you'll see him in the pedigrees. You still do a
lot of lots and lots of pedigrees. Yeah, But but
that was him. Yeah. And Gunner was so personable. I

(52:13):
remember staying at Woolly's house up there and I you know,
lay down on the floor and Gunner just coming was
like a house dog, wouldn't he. Yeah, I mean he
was never remember never. I think if you had told
him he was a dog, e't upset him because he
I think you really just thought he was a short
human short. Yeah, And like hanging out with the very
first night. What he said, Okay, now, I said, we're

(52:34):
just gonna sleep. He so, well, he's there's a great
big desk in there, and he's supposed to sleep underneath
that desk. But he's I've got a bed for him there.
But he said, listen to this. He said he had
wood floors. He said, come here, listen, listen to this story. Kids,
I'm gonna close this door and listen what happened. So
we close the door, and all of a sudden you
could hear it click, and you could hear the Gunner.
He jumped up on the bed and he was he

(52:54):
was in there, you know, sleeping on the bed. And
then wood he would gore and rattle the door hendl
and you heard Gunna jump off and go back. He
wasn't supposed to be in Okay. And some people, some people,
you know, bear hunters, believed that all these little cute
stories about Gunner and the fact that he would listen
to humans and that he wasn't even broke to Alicia
as far as we know that that would made himn

(53:15):
less of a bear dog. But you know what, the
more intelligence you can have a bear dog life far
the better. So yeah, well so so would he ended
up selling Bear Path Gunner to a guy in Wisconsin.
And that's a guy, yeah, Mike, because still around Okay.
See I when it when Becky, when we were I

(53:36):
don't know what all you can put in here, and
you can always cut stuff out. When we were up
there and and and Gunner saw Becky, he just perked
up and went from flying over to her and then
jumped up on her and and what He said, She's
coming in heat and I said, no, no, no, she
shouldn't be in heat for like six more months. He said, well,
what's the deal, And I said, he smells a kinship

(53:57):
or something. I really don't know. I don't know, but
I said, we love at first sight. But well it
was and and the truth is, when he wasn't hunting
and she would just stand around, he was over there
with her almost all the time. So I read, uh,
I read the most famous third red breeder in the world.
Believed that a lot of times natural selection was important. Okay, no,

(54:20):
this is kind of been the breeding deal again. So
if he would lead a mayor through a bunch of
stallions and the one that she chose, that's how he
would breathe. And he raised more steakes winners per hundred
than any other human as they were done. Okay, Well,
when it came time to read Becky, Becky was a
super super dog, okay, just all the way around. And
I couldn't find a male that I thought was good
enough for her in the Central Parl, United States. And

(54:41):
I didn't have one myself because at that time I
was afraid to bread, you know, brothers, sister. So so
I said, you know what, I'm gonna bread the Gunner. Well,
by then he'd been sold to Mike Rick Luck. So
I got a hold of Mike and I said, Mike,
I want to read my Becky female. You know, I
gave all the I thought he would just say, sure,
bring her up. You know, he said three ter fitty dollars.
I said, I'm sold that dog to Woody for like

(55:01):
a hundred seventy five. He said, well, it's three hundred fits. Daughters,
you can read or not to, you know, and and
and the truths. By then so many people wanting to
read to the dog that that kind of had to
living him somehow. So I borrowed the money I think
for my dad, put her into crate, shipped her up there,
brought her home, and she had you know that fantastic
litter of you know, of dogs. I mean Pocahona's Hankin
and Mike Candy and and Gunner I mean, well Gunner two,

(55:24):
which is red and and just super super super dogs,
I mean, just real things. So the next time she
came in here, about a year later, I got ahold
of Mike he said, I want too meal pups. That's
what I want this time. So I said, yeah, that's fine.
I think I sound sold him like thunder and lightning
or something. So so that and that's, you know, that's
kind of how And then and then so I had
already I had taken I had taken a you know,

(55:46):
two half brother, half brother, half sister, actually three quarter brother,
three quarter sister, and bred him together. And once again,
some even ever said he thought that I was going
to get you know, short little dogs, because I was
doubled up on bouncer and I didn't. I got world
world beaters, you know. So what I was doing, what
we were doing, was just keep we were We kept

(56:07):
adding all those genetics that those ones I showed you
how to go, you know, all that North Carolina tong
all that Nickels store me, all that stuff. Over and over.
We just kept adding it right back into the things.
And it can't escape. It's just there. You know. If
you put them with put that dog with a good hunter,
it's gonna make it. So Yeah, and some people don't
believe in hund percent litters and gush. If I have
something that's not it, it just upsets the heck out

(56:28):
of me if I haven't. Yeah, So from so from there,
which would have been bear Path Gunner lived to be
like nine years old and died in two if I
remember something like that, two Yeah, I think. I think
he lived to be ten. But I okay, he may live.

(56:49):
I'm going off, but he but that dog kind of
he became a nationally known dog at that time. What
shocked me, what shot me when I went to my
first American Plot Association days, was those old timers come
up to me, and I'm talking about people way older
than me, okay, and I guess they let him Old
the Wrist home. I don't know, but but they came

(57:10):
to me and said, I said, I heard that you
was the one that raised bear Paths good and I said, yes, Sam.
They said, my God, said all of us people down here,
so we all have Gunner in our dogs. And those
people from North Carolina and they had all those good
dogs down there, but they were hauling wherever they had to,
even from West Gunner and breeding to bear Paths Gunner.
You know why because he was the best thing around
and a lot of times, like Cascade, Big Timber was

(57:31):
a wonderful dog. I hud it with him. I loved him, okay,
but he didn't reproduce at his level. Well, Gunner reproduced
at an extremely highly level, high level, and that's why
people use him. And it's hard to find a pedigree
in bear world more that doesn't have bear paths Gunner
in there. And sometimes maybe ten times, you know, I
mean eight or ten times. Yeah, so especially in these

(57:53):
in these lines like ferns. I think, and we went
through all this years ago as I was learning this
stuff from you. But you know, my my pup and
her seven generation pedigree, I think she has a bear
path a lot, yeah, a lot. Yeah, he's a way back.
It's just well, let's get to a more broader picture now.

(58:13):
So we've established kind of your family history and and
and bear path Gunner and Judd and all these dogs,
and then from you've pretty much had well, you've been
sending dogs for bear and mountain lion hunting took professional
a lot for a while. I mean, these are big
game dogs. You're not really giving them the coon hunters

(58:35):
that much anymore. I'm kind of an exception and that
we can't run big game in Arkansas, and I needed,
you know, but yeah, and The truth is, I the
bear hunters. Really you can take a blue tick and
good tree a coon, and I'm not condemning them, because
the truth is, it's harder to breed for an extremely
good coon dog than it is to be to breed
for a real good bear dog. Okay, but there's people

(58:58):
out there. These are irving of an exceptional bear dog,
an exceptional lion dog, an exceptional bobcat dog, an exceptional
hog dog, and we're producing him and we like to
kind of get him in the good hands. I I
do a lot of choosing about where my dogs go.
So I took the little Creek female, went all the
way down to where at Kweat, Oklahoma, where Brandon lives,

(59:19):
and handed it to Alvin Gregg. And uh, she was
such a well she literally no, no, she was a
little bit older. But but what an exceptional hog dog.
I mean I got to hunt with her one time,
and and Alvin turned to me, come back, said, now,
I know you don't like the way the fact that
she just kind of hunting here close, But she said
the moment that she comes by any hogs mill, she'll

(59:41):
be gone. And he turned turns around, said herd came here,
look at this, and she was eight hundred yards. Await
he just walked back there. She was an eight hundred yards.
He's the next time you see her, she'll have a
hog got Hammon. Travis took off running and they that
there's a video of it. Gets kind of intense. And
tell me about that dog rigging, rigging a hog on

(01:00:01):
the highway. Or they were going seventy miles an hour
and it closed dog box in the winter. All kinds
of stories. But so you're these dogs have there in
the hands of people all over the world, well and
not all. I have never sent one overseas, and one
I think went over there. They hunted a really weird
style over there. They only some places you're only led

(01:00:23):
one dog or two dogs, and I think that you're
it's a terrible disadvantage to a dog to to be
put in a situation where you're asking them to fail. Okay, yeah,
well but but but I've never said it. I've never
seen a dog to California. Okay, I've never said, yeah,
won to Turkey. Yeah not not Japan. I had to,

(01:00:45):
I had, I almost had. In fact, the bull pup
was just getting ready to be shipped over there and
then they called it kind of you know, we're not sure.
My partner wants to know this and this, this, this,
and I said, and I just waited about two days.
And then he got back home. He said, Georgian and
and and uh he said, I think we want that dog.

(01:01:07):
And I said, uh, that dog left out of here
two days ago. He's an Oklahoma and they absolutely love him.
And he's he's for real, he's litter mate and for real. Yeah,
I'm bear hunted him up there. We're gonna take hi
up again, hopefully, but no, he's for real. He's absolutely
for real. So well, describe to me, and this is

(01:01:28):
kind of going backwards a little bit. That described to
me the characteristics that you're breeding for. Steve. Okay, when
people hunt, people didn't think they needed nose. We had
to have it because we hunted an Oklahoma Panhandle and
then still down there, we expect a dog. I would
be embarrassed if I hunted with some off color dogs
and they struck in front of me. Okay, I mean

(01:01:48):
it's it's a little bit of pride to maybe a
little bit of a false wode. I don't know, but
but I don't want that Okay. Then they have to
have speed, because once again, you don't want somebody to
outrun your dogs. Okay, so my dogs have to have speed.
They have to be intelligent, and if they're if they're dumb,
they just don't live long enough to ever get hunted. Okay,
because I can't stand a dumb dog. I just can't

(01:02:08):
say it. Okay. They have to be a certain size,
and I'm extreme to pick a particular arong size because overweight,
blubberry looking male dog or female dog one just can't move. Okay,
they just simply can't move. They they have to be.
They have to locate, and so many bear hunters don't
think that this is true. But they have to locate

(01:02:30):
a squirrel in the top of a tree in a blizzard,
and I have videos to prove that that's what they
do about four months old. Okay, they have to be long,
stayput tree dogs. I want my dogs to be. I
want them to bay a bear or a hog almost
all day long, but I don't really want them to
ever actually make contact. It's okay if they do, but
I don't want my dogs killed. I don't over their shutters.

(01:02:52):
Their hunters and some some people listening to this podcast
tomorrow whenever it is, Will say, yeah, he know he
wants his dogs to turn. No, I want my dogs
to live through the day, and I really don't care
what happens. I want him to live. A dead dog
never cyrus babies, and a dead dog never treats you
one more piece of game. So there's people that get
so are so proud about their dogs being so gritty

(01:03:16):
but kind of productive. It's it's kind of productive, just
you know, you know you you say, my dog can
jump higher off a cliff, and any dog you've ever seen,
well that dog only did it once. Colton, what is uh?
So you've been around these dogs? Now you've got you've
got some of your own dogs. Yes, I have one
dog right now named Butch. But is he the is

(01:03:38):
he the the Semen dogs? He came from the original Butch. Okay,
so back in the nineties, Butch was around. When was
Butch around? He's been dead ten years, he's been dead twelve.
Here we go again. So y'all okay, So, so the
pup you've got, now, what do y'all call him? Okay, well,

(01:03:59):
he was he's a couple of years old now, and yes,
and then but he came from backup. Colton originally liked
the great, big, big houndy dogs. Okay, you know, he
bally and okay, and I said, Colton, they're not gonna
work for you. He said, well, Dad, how do you
pick out a dog? And I said, you just look

(01:04:19):
at him and look at him, and pretty soon you
see something. You say, Okay, this is my dog. So
he comes to the house. Nellie had nine puppies and uh,
and out of Reno and and so he comes to
the house one day. You get to the rest of story. Yeah,
he came in the house one day, and uh, I
think we were kind of getting shorter on dogs. We
had a few, you know, we we always we always

(01:04:39):
had a good a few good dogs around and we
had a real promising letter. I think there is nine nine, yeah,
nine or ten. I think there there had only been
one puff. I think they had died at a young age.
And he, uh said it's time to pick your dog.
And I had. I claimed Reno. Reno has been why
he was my first real dog. We know I'm talking

(01:05:00):
at Buster. Yeah, yeah, I know, but I had I'm
back up, Okay, tell stories from you, okay, sure, And
oh Man and h we uh so I started at
a young age. But the dog that I really grew
up knowing was Reno. Reno. You know, I remember Reno.
He's probably one of the main stud dogs you've used

(01:05:22):
for the last Yeah he's still lost, he's still alive,
and he's in New Mexico weeks and Steve just pulled
back Colton's shirt and you got a tattoo Reno. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
he uh he was his letter. I remember growing up.

(01:05:42):
There was a Reno's litter was it was a super litter.
You here Dad talking a lot about the dog named Scar.
Scar was a dog that was a bit when she
was a little baby by a brown brown spider and
had a really bad on her hip. And she'll a
lot of people that hunt with us to this day
will tell you that she's actually she's the best coon
dog that you were around. She was extremely good dog.
And Mark Martin de French brand, Yeah. And then my

(01:06:07):
Ruger dog that got killed by the bear, and Joe
Hudson's Calie female and Crook who I got back and
sent out to the Mexico, And and there was another
dog named Hound. Every single dog in the littera. Joe
Hudson called me the day and said he thinks this
might be one of the greatest litters ever made. So
Mark DeFraine, who's a very repidable veteran bear hunter, and

(01:06:28):
he says he'll go to his grave saying that brand
is the best. And she still loves Brenn is still alive. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
so and now tell me you picked out Reno. No, no,
I didn't pick out Reno. So, you know, Dad was
talking about one of the old litters that was a
super litter. That was the first super litter that I've
got to experience growing up. Yeah, got it. We always
had a you know, Dad had a couple of dogs

(01:06:50):
named Sugar and uh what was the other one? Start.
They were kind of the first female to remember. But
Reno was really the first you know, big, you know dog,
that dog that Dad decided to keep. He wasn't it
wasn't really kind of what he was looking for at
the time. You know. He Reno was a little bit
heavy caliber, more of a heavy caliber dog. Um. But
he came out one day and said, He's like, there's

(01:07:13):
some gorgeous pups out there in the trailer. He's like,
why don't you go pick you a pup. He's like,
I wasn't. He wasn't originally we weren't originally gonna get
a male dog. Dad prefers the female. So we were
looking through there. He's like, I I have I think
I have me a female picked out. And he's like,
there's one pup that I see something I want to
see if I want to see if you see the
pup that I see. So he went out there with
me and we I got gott in the horse trailer

(01:07:35):
and kind of got down there looking at some puffs
and I was I was, you know, going through and
there was like a test. They were just less than
two weeks old. Yeah, they were a little bit. This
is like I think they had just barely. Okay, So
he says, son, see if you see what I said?

(01:07:56):
And I wanted to know you have to be able
to yeah, you know, he he doesn't want me going
out there and picking know the light brintle and the
heaviest mail out the river. River Nukele was listening to
this podcast River you gotta pick up on some of
this because and and but okay, now what he's saying
though real quick, he's saying that he got to watch
Reno grow up and he remembers what Reno did it
about it, and you nemember how Reno looked. Yeah, And

(01:08:18):
so there was just me and me and dad. We
kind of we kind of know how to how to
pick around the same you know, when it goes to bulls,
you know, we we can kind of pick the similar
bulls and the horses. And uh, So I went out
there and I picked up a couple of pups. There
was you know, there was two light brintle males in
that and so I kind of looked at them. I'm like, well,
you know, that's not really what I think he's looking at.
So I kind of shoved them to the side and

(01:08:40):
went through the females and stuff. Uh. There was another
dog that ended up going to Travis Taves. His name
was Rage. He looked a lot like my buster pup,
and I picked him up. I really liked him. I'm like, well,
I was like na uh. And then the last it
was the last one I picked up, and he was
just a gorgeous pup. I mean he had the right
amount of black and the amount of you know this

(01:09:01):
and that. And I picked him up and there was
just a look about him, just almost a confidence look.
I mean it was it was crazy. And I picked
it up and I said, I'm not sure what you're thinking, dad,
but I'm thinking this puff right here is gonna be
special and dads like that. And it was. And it
was a buster he and Buster was one of the
best barrier buggers I've hunted for a long long time.

(01:09:21):
It's just he got killed by Hall and Buster is
Ferns Daddy. I know that. I know that. And by
the way, he should have started a lot more pup.
He died early. Heed. Hey, when I was out in uh,
when I was in Idaho, I won't say any names here,
but when I was in Okdaho Mountain lion hunting with
the plot man that doesn't necessarily have any of the

(01:09:42):
Bluff Creek strain, he told me that he was very
impressed with Buster because I you know, and I probably
brought it up. Yeah, yeah, and uh, but he he said,
I was impressed with that dog. And for somebody that
doesn't have any connections to breathe it to a line
of hounds to say something really good. But if if

(01:10:05):
you if you had a bunch of dogs run into
those woods heavily wooded across where we're sitting here, and
and they suddenly shut up and they can't a bear
Sometimes a bear just disappears, and a cat will disappear
in a combl disappear. Well, then somebody yells, bring Buster.
So you get Buster out of pick up, you drop
him in there. Give him ten seconds, Just give him
ten seconds, and all of a sudden he's opening and

(01:10:27):
moving any moving, And I'm not I'm not talking about trade,
and I'm talking about screaming. And it happened so often.
What Buster would have been born, like in two thousand
ten or something, I mean it was I would have
said maybe probably later than that. Well he died when
he's five years old, and because he was alive, he

(01:10:47):
died like the first year that I had ferns. Ferns
four years old anyway. Yeah, but so you picked out
this peple. Yeah yeah, And I wasn't I wasn't really
into I was always into hunting, and I was always
in the dogs. But Buster was the one that kind
of that really made me excited, you know, going to
going to Wisconsin. In fact, he was my actual first

(01:11:07):
my first dog I actually got to hunt with of
our own. You know, we always had our own. That's
my puffle. Let's see what he Let's see what what
he can do. So we when you hauled, when you
took Buster with you, you could you could go hunting
any state in the United States. And and when you
dropped out with anybody anywhere, you knew that you had
as good a dog as goes, it was gonna be

(01:11:28):
turned loose that day. Okay. And now like the jackpot
dug up there right now, you when when you you
can hauld him anywhere and turn him loose with anybody,
and you know what, you're not ever going to be
just not gonna be embarrassed because he's just that good.
He just and and you know sometimes you have to
keep sharpen your pencil. Wel We've got the old pencil
pretty sharp right now, because that's that's what that's what

(01:11:49):
that's what we're trying to do, okay. And and once again,
all we're doing is trying to just duplicate what those
portal hunters, you know, them starving old houndsman did back
in the mountains when they were trying to catch a
game with their home, with their whether it was hogs
or bearer where I didn't realize how much bearer they
ate back there, but they ate a lot of bearer
met Yeah, they do. Hey, we're gonna we're gonna do

(01:12:09):
another podcast. I'm not sure how it's gonna work out here.
But so in not necessarily inclosing, but sort of inclosing.
If we're so, we've established, you know, the Bluff Creek
line and plots and your history. Are there any iconic
stories that or or just what what would you say?

(01:12:31):
You you know all that you've said, and I'm kind
of just turning this all over to you if you
were gonna give some closing remarks about just your history
with the Bluff Creek dogs, your dad, the hunting that
you guys have done, um or or even just what
these dogs mean. Do you Steve the main here? The
one here's just again, any any hunter and and really

(01:12:53):
in any profession, Uh, you should be thrilled to death
that you're getting work with Withoutdoor Life, I mean you
of your magazine, I mean both you guys are you know,
you're kind of competitors, but you're actually both on the
same side. So when your houndsmen are very prideful people
and that the plot people were very prideful people, and
Isaiah kid was a private person, and Golda Ferguson wasn't

(01:13:15):
all those people in Everet Williams was extremely private. Well,
when you go to the woods, you don't want to
have to make up a thousand excuses about why your
dog didn't do what they were supposed to do. You
want to simply sit there and have people patch you
on back. Say, my god, I have never seen anything
like that. Okay. Something my dad was always worried about
was that younger generations would not be able to enjoy

(01:13:42):
the same caliber dogs that he started with. Okay, and
then I I took over in seventy one, and I
was afraid that people would not. Also, younger people, you know,
some in this room right here, including sitting across the
table from me. I was afraid that they wouldn't that
they would hear the plot hound was either growley or
slow or big or dumb or silent mouth or whatever.
So I wanted to hang on. I wanted, if if

(01:14:04):
nothing else, produced one more letter to let people know
that they're still out there, and and if you do,
if you do your homework and do things right, that
there there will be for several more generations. Okay, So
that's that's my legacy is I want to be able
to pass on to younger, younger generations. And I think,
you know it might be on the way right now.
I want I want a lot of people to get

(01:14:25):
to enjoy that. I mean, do you know how long
you might have looked had you gotta not gout fern?
I mean think about I mean, how many miles would
you have driven? Dad did it for a purpose to
produce the dogs, but also to make sure that they
were still out there, Okay, because you know, because because
once okay, had ever Wheams not have made that cross

(01:14:45):
of drive to Susy, we wouldn't be sitting here at
this table right now. Okay. Had Dad not made his
cross of our chief to trouble, we wouldn't be sitting
here at this table. And I actually believe that the plothound.
I actually believe that the plothound would not have still
existed in the forum we know it had it not
been for a few special people and a few special,
very special dogs. Okay, And I mean, nobody wants to

(01:15:08):
promote just more dogs. You know, you don't you don't
want that you want some really elite dogs. And like
Joe Hudson says, if you ain't seen it, you ain't
gonna believe it, Okay, I mean you just if if
you haven't seen it, then you're not gonna believe it,
that that a puppy could start that young. You know,
at the ban Joe dog was a freak of nature.
He started so young, and and he made even my dogs,

(01:15:30):
he made my dogs look bad. He was he just
did things. I don't remember whether we ever even tied
him up once again. He just voiced demands. And and
he's one who got killed by a bobcat at fourteen
months old. But by then I'd already bred him to
Cindy because I got medicine people. And he produced Reno
and Bran and see what I'm saying, one cross, one
cross only and that, and he had a hundred percent

(01:15:51):
outstanding pups out of one litter. But he was he
was a freaking nature and he was exactly what I
was looking for. So every time, and by the way,
Buster looked exactly camp. They were dark brand Banjo Banjo.
When he was a little pup, I had a road runner,
you know, one of the road runner birds he'd come
up to the house and you know, beg for stuff,
dog food and stuff, and Banjoe hated him, so he

(01:16:13):
would It became a game, so he would chase he
would chase that road runner. Well, as time progressed, Banjoe
got a little faster and that bird got a little slower.
And this went on for ninety days, okay, and the
ninetieth day, probably about the nineties day could have been
a hundred and five. All of a sudden, here comes
Banjo and he walks up there and he lays that

(01:16:34):
road runner in front of me, and he had killed
And you know what, I swear, I swear he was sad.
I mean, the game is over. But he he the
road runner would get to the tree and then and
then look over his shoulder before he jumped. Well, he
shouldn't have looked over his shoulder. You know. That's how
Babo and lost the Olympics that year. Okay, are we

(01:16:55):
done there? Gotta I gotta tell you the story later
about one of our pubs for a different one. Culton
closing closing thoughts on, um, how old are you called?
I'm so you've been around these dogs your whole life
and you've you've hunted. Obviously, you live in you live
in Kansas, so they're not running big game in Kansas,

(01:17:17):
but you travel up to Wisconsin and Michigan and Uh, anyway,
what what do these dogs mean to you? I mean,
what's it like having a family such a rich family
history with It's awesome. Uh, It's it's kind of cool
having you know, in our family, having that claim to fame,
you know, with my brother and my dad and you
know in our in our grandfather, having that in our family.

(01:17:39):
It's awesome. Yeah, it's definitely been fun. Uh. You know,
I didn't I didn't have video games and stuff as
a kid. I mean, that's what you grew up doing.
You grew up going outside and playing with the dogs
and run and running, running alongside the creek and you know,
going coon hunting and falling off logs and into the
creek and you're Brandon, hold are you okay? So that

(01:18:00):
many years apart and still both of them are doing
the same thing. He hunted with Gunnered, Colton hunter with Buster,
and you know what I mean, it's it's been it's
been an awesome Okay. So we're across the creek. We've
got Banjo, uh Tater and and Ruston and me, and
we're across the creek and for some reason, you decided

(01:18:20):
you needed to bring a twenty two magnum rifle out
of my pickup over to the creek. And you decided
you'd walk across that log and it's winter, it is
cold dead. Did we thought twice about it? And so
all of a sudden we hear this flash and I
didn't what it was. And then all of a sudden,
this kid climbs up out of the creek and he's
got that twenty two magnum and he's got water above
his waist and it is it's it's fifteen degrees. It's

(01:18:42):
just he said, I thought you said you needed this
this rifle. I said, no, I didn't say that. So
I just brought it in here just in case. And
so we get over to the pickup at we shoot
to go now with my pistol. And we got over
to the pickup and he said, I think I got
water my boots. And we took his boots off and
there was more than a court and a half of
water in each boot, each one of his boots, and

(01:19:04):
he just wanted all the way. Yeah, if it had
been slashing, it probably frozen. Needless to say, I don't
have very good balance. So but it's it's, it's, it's
it's introduced just to a lot of a lot of
people and even brands back in Brandon's day. It took
us to a lot of miles, to a lot of
places we would never been, you know, And we're we're

(01:19:25):
going to Bearcampa in Michigan this year and we you know,
we're planning on having some fun up there, and co
butcher Dog is up there. We might have old Reno
back with us by then, and uh, and you know,
take him along because the truth is he uh, he
still sneaks away from a lot of good, fast dogs.
What I'm saying, well, in closing, I'll say that I

(01:19:45):
wouldn't probably never, because I didn't intentionally get back into hounds.
It was kind of by accident. I always say that
to people because I didn't expect to get And I'm
not saying that Ferns the best coon dog and the
plant I'm not for me for me, she was for
me and my family. She was I mean, and uh

(01:20:06):
and she she still is. And but it just it
was just so fun to hunt weather and tree game
and see the things that she did and uh and
uh it really changed the trajectory. And now I've got
I got another pup from a dog from you, Jed,
who's uh who's a character and a half, super smart

(01:20:26):
and Jed and first the scar of the female that
he was talking about earlier. But here's here's the I
guess the conclusion, talking about how it has has brought
you in to so many different people in relationships and stuff.
We have taken more on this podcast. We talked, uh

(01:20:47):
Steve a lot about you know, the trajectory of hunting
and recruiting new hunters and different things. Of all the
big game hunting that I've done, I have taken exponentially
more new hunters out coon hunting than anything else. I
bet we've taken I mean we we've been we've been
talking about this. I don't know how many River did
you just punch him? River River nucom and her friends.

(01:21:09):
Uh River just punched her little brother. Uh we Uh,
I bet we've taken a hundred people. But see never
but that's that's what it's all about. That see that,
I mean, it's not all it's not all about killing
game guys, it's it's about it's about but when you
have a when you have a good dog, it's fun
to take. But once again, she's not getting embarrassed. You
see what I'm saying. I mean, most of the times

(01:21:30):
she doesn't. And so that's what it's all about. You.
Nobody wants to be embarrassed. So you you breed, and
and and as you're making your your calling decisions and
you're in your picking stuff, you say, Okay, which one
of these dogs is definitely best? Because I don't want
to be embarrassed, you know. And when I when I
get so I can't do it, I will, I will
shut down immediately, you know, I'll call him, but he say, okay, guys,
I'm done, and I'm gonna turn it over to somebody else.

(01:21:51):
And Colton wants to take over. You can and and uh,
you know go from there. So well, hey, thanks for
thanks for meeting me over here. Guys up Steve Brandon,
It really my pleasure to get to talk with you. Guys.
We could talk for hours. I know this guy right here,
we can talk for hours. And uh, and we'll do
this again sometime when we're together. Um, we will. We

(01:22:13):
are going to have. Uh we're gonna release another podcast,
hopefully about breeding, which we're gonna anyway that won't make
sense in the timing of this, but hey, thanks for
meeting with me and Uh, as we always say on
this podcast when we closed, Steve, keep the wild places
wild because that's where the bears live. Yeah. Okay, I
like that. I'd like to do very good, so very good.

(01:22:34):
Thanks guys,

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