Goose Hunt, Natalie Krebs, and a Buck Story

Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:04):
My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host of the
Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your host into
the world of hunting the icon of the North American
Wilderness Fair. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation. We will
also bring you into some of the wildest country on
the planet chasing fair. This week, I'm down in Brinkley, Arkansas,

(00:34):
goose hunting with Jonathan Wilkins at his Black Duck Revival camp.
I'm not a big waterfowl guy, and that's not because
I don't like it. It's just that I live in
the mountains and we're not in a major flyway. I
didn't grow up waterfowl hunting, but it is hard to
deny the excitement and the uniqueness of the experience of

(00:58):
waterfowl hunting. We extra recorded this podcast before the hunt,
so we don't talk a lot about our actual hunt,
but Jonathan talks about waterfowl hunting in Arkansas goose hunting
while we're gonna be doing and I can tell you
that we had a great time. Also around our fire
is Natalie Crebs with Outdoor Life. Natalie has been a

(01:18):
writer for Outdoor Life for six years and We had
a great conversation with her as well. Dear, season in Arkansas,
rifle season anyways officially over and we're about to start
coon hunting and squirrel hunting hard. If you have dogs
or need dog related stuff, check out W Hunting Supply.

(01:39):
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To check them out. Hey, c v A Muzzleloaders, Man,
if you listen to this full episode, you're gonna hear
me talk and be real honest about an experience I
had with my muzzleloader. This week. C v A Muzzloaders
to make an incredible line of muzzleloaders. I love them
because you can take the breach out by hand. I

(02:44):
have got no choice but to be honest with you guys.
I had a misfire on a gun this week, and
it was a pretty unique experience, and I go, I
detail what happened, and it actually wasn't. The c VA's
fault was Clay's fault. So you're gonna learn something. Listen
to the end of this podcast and you'll hear what happened.

(03:07):
But the fact that I was carrying that muzzloader during
rifle season. I was carrying it because of its lightness,
because of how short it is, how accurate is and
I just like the gun. Check out c v A muzzloaders.
Muzzloader seasons are a great time to hunt deer, and
there's a lot of favorable reasons to own a muzzloader.

(03:28):
But you've gotta be tuned in on how to use
a muzzloader because they're different than a rifle. And that's
what I'm learning, and that's why I'm being honest and
just sharing the whole story. Hey, check out the end
of this podcast. You might you might learn something. North
Woods Bear Products best commercial bear sense on the market.

(03:49):
Then using them for many, many many years. Getting ready
for spring bear hunting, you're gonna want to use Northwoods
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(04:10):
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need to be using. Lastly, Western Bear Foundation, our Buddies
out West, nonprofit hunting conservation organization fighting the good fight
for bear hunters and predator management in the West. Check

(04:34):
them out. There's plenty of time to order some Bear
Hunting Magazine merchandise for Christmas. Colby the Bear Attack Moorhead
is literally sitting as a computer waiting for orders to
come in so that he can send them to you.
He might even write you a personal note thanking you
for your purchase. We've got some new first light cipher

(04:55):
bear grease hats. This bear grease hat has become one
of our most popular. But we've also got our flashy
mule bear dogs and solid colors. We've got a lot
of new stuff. We've also got a full line of shirts,
coffee cups, phone cases with all these unique Bear Hunting

(05:16):
magazine designs on them. Check out our merchandise at bear
hyphen hunting dot com. Oh yeah, we've got also a
new shirt that says acorns acorns. All right, about a
quarter of the country pronounces the word spelled A C
O R N as acorn. I can't even say with

(05:39):
my mouth the way that the other of the country
says that word. But around here we say acorn. And
we have memorialized and commemorated and celebrated the pronunciation of
this word with a new shirt. Get the acorn shirt.
You know, if you're on the team, you canna enjoy
this podcast with Jonathan Wilkins and Natalie Creb's about your life.

(06:06):
All right, we're we are in Brinkley, Arkansas, not at
the global headquarters. Were at the We're at the global
headquarters of Black Duck Revival. This is pretty significant, um, Jonathan,
anytime we're actually recording this podcast by fire. I uh, okay,

(06:27):
this is a test for both of you. I've got
another guest here that will introduce here in a minute.
This this will determine how well you know the Bare
Honey magazine podcast. What do I always do if there's
a fire that we're around, I know they're gonna fail. No, well,
later that's after No one knows about that. No, we

(06:49):
always tell it's significant what kind of wood it is.
So if you're in Canada, you know, you know, you're like,
this is a soft wood birch fire, fast burning, hot crackle.
We're sitting over a red oak fire Arkansas red oak fire,
relatively quiet, nice, pleasant smoke. Not many sparks burns for

(07:10):
long periods of time, so we're gonna be warm. So
we're outside. Um now I'm with I'm with Jonathan Wilkins,
Black Ducker Vial. Jonathan has been on a couple of times.
And then hey, our special guest Natalie Crabs. Um, Natalie,
good to good to meet you. We had talked for
an article that you had done one time, but this

(07:31):
is the first time to to to meet you. Yeah, yeah,
it's good to meet you in person. Uh yeah that
article was what last year for Outdoor Life, but yeah,
this is better. Yeah yeah, I think uh, I think
it was. I think it came out in twenty nineteen.
I guess summer of twenty nine, No fall of twenty nineteen. Okay, yeah, yeah,

(07:51):
because yeah, it made you go hunting in July. But
we can talk about that later. Yeah yeah, Jonathan, what
we might as well talk about it now, do you?
Did you know about that? I didn't know? Okay, Well,
the reason I know her is because Nadally watched a
video of us, Uh coon hunting on mules, is that right? Yeah? Well,
we wanted to do a raccoon story for Outdoor Life.

(08:13):
We hadn't done anything on raccoon hunting in years, um,
but I was trying to find an interesting angle and
I don't know why, but Google turned up um, hunting
for raccoons on mule back in the Ozarks. And I'm
from Missouri and I had never heard of this and
was like, well, I gotta find somebody who still does this.
And I found you on YouTube and I called you
up and we did a story on it. Well, it

(08:34):
was interesting because it was just like a few months
before that is when we put that video out. So
I've never made any content on coon hunting on mules
and so yeah, it was it was great. And so
there was an article in Outdoor Life and uh, you
guys sent, but I didn't meet you. We just did
a phone interview and you guys sent. Uh was his name, guys,

(08:56):
Jacomo Jacomo Tonado Yakamo Fortunato from New York City, I
mean came to Arkansas for three days, aided our kitchen table,
hauled him around Coton hunting on mules. I mean, he
was like, he was a super neat guy. Um. I'm

(09:17):
glad that worked out because sometimes we'll send photographers from
New York City and it to parts unknown and it
does not work out. He was an interesting guy, for sure.
But I think he took like photos and like three
days and you guys used like eight of them. Yeah
that sounds right. But the ones we used turned out awesome. Yeah, No,

(09:39):
we still we was We still talk about Jacomo. He
wasn't he was a neat guy. Um. But so that's
how I know you just to establish that. So now
that you work for outdoor Life, I do work for
outdoor Life, yes, um, I've been there for about six years. Um,
and I just moved to Arkansas from New York City
this summer. And John, then that's the bizarre part is that, Yeah,

(10:02):
she was in New York City when uh when when
you know, we did the phone interview, and then a
couple of months ago at a at some event, I
heard somebody say, yeah, Natalie Crabs is going to be there.
And anyway, I heard you lived in Arkansas. Yeah, yeah,
you were one of two people I knew who lived
in Arkansas before I moved here. So right on, right, well,

(10:23):
now you know Bear and Shepherd. I've got Bear and
Shepherd here too. My boys, they don't have mics on,
but they know Jacomo. They were part of that. They
were part of that article too. But yeah, so I mean,
I guess you gotta tell us. So with with COVID,
outdoor Life kind of was able to you. You didn't

(10:45):
have to be in the office as much, and so
it kind of changed the company. And you don't have
to go into all the details, but like, essentially you
lived in New York for six years, yes, which is
where outdoor Life was. I moved to New York City
because I started working for outdoor Life. Um that where
our parent company was based. But long story short, the
city shut down in mid March when COVID really started

(11:06):
to hit, and I left. I mean, I throw all
my stuff in a rental car and I went back
home to Missouri, UM, and I've been working remote for
months and then was able to move to Arkansas, UM
and keep my job and work remoting here. I am Jonathan.
Would you move to New York City to work for
Outdoor Life? Probably not. I've got a family. I don't

(11:29):
know if I mean you could take them with you.
The question is more about, like, if you're an outdoor
writer writing about the nitty gritty of North American hunting
and fishing, would you move to New York And how
like intuitive would that geographic move b I'm I'm kind
of making a point here. I mean, it depends on
it depends on how long you stay in New York

(11:51):
City if you move about. But have you ever been
to New York City? Yeah? I liked it. Uh, you know,
I wouldn't mind been It's been some real time there. Uh.
But economically I don't know if I could endure. I'm
used to what stuff costs in Arkansas. Yeah. Well that

(12:13):
was my point was like, why is Outdoor Life based
in New York City? Yeah? I mean it was because
we were owned by a parent company and there's a
you know, a long storied tradition of publications being based
in New York City. Um, they've got a great airport
to fly you to all the rural places that you
need to go for work. But also, I mean New

(12:34):
York State itself, UM is actually a fantastic place if
you like to hunt and fish. I mean I once
took an uber from Brooklyn to Long Island to hunt
brand on a weekend morning. Like the duck hunting on
Long Island is nuts. All along the coast, they've got
deer hunting, bear hunting. Um. I mean it's it's a
really cool place when you get outside of the city

(12:55):
and it it doesn't take you that long to get there.
The cats skills are just north of the city at
ran next Um at Airondack Park is one of the
wildest places I've ever been on the East Coast, and
it's in New York State Finger Lakes. Um. So you
do have to make an effort. But I'm not upset
that I lived there when I did. I mean I
love a lot living there. Yeah. Do you remember, Natalie,

(13:15):
I don't know how old you are. Do you remember
those pace pecante uh commercials? Jonathan you're belt? Yeah, man,
you don't remember those? Okay? Well, there was so pace
pecante sauce, you know, like America's favorite, like dirt cheap,
like poconte sauce. It's really not America's favorite, but probably

(13:38):
really generic, at least where Jonathan and I are from.
And they had this marketing deal years ago where these
guys were sitting around a fire and he picked up
this pace pecante sauce and they or this random pecanti
the other type of peconte sauce. They read the label
and somebody said, where's that from? And they and they

(13:58):
said New York City. And man, it just branded a
whole generation of people that if you were a guy,
and it was usually set up around the fire and
it was these cowboys, and so you know, it's like
it ruined me to thinking that New York City could
have any kind of like connection to the outdoors. Now
I realized that, like, uh, well, I realized what you're saying,

(14:21):
Like New York State is a great place for hunting
and fishing in a lot of ways, but not hot sauce.
New York City does not have a claim to fame
frot sauce. So okay, okay, how how far would you
have to drive out of New York City to get
into like rural New York. Um. That depends how bad

(14:43):
the traffic was. I mean, as the crow flies, it
was not far. I mean you could get to some
place in ninety miles to hunt deer. I mean Long
Island is has some of the best bow hunting UM
in New York State simply because the un on Long Island. Yes,
but you can't use UM. They don't have a gun
season in UM. So there's a lot of deer. I
mean I talked to a game more from once, uh

(15:04):
who was like, have you seen the deer they have
on Staten Island? And then the amount of poaching that
happens because they don't have any wildlife management, uh, your
real like hunting management in any of the five boroughs
of Staten Island. It's part of New York City, and
they've just got huge box on the island and people
poach them and try and take care of the deer,
but there's no hunting season there. So it's it's this

(15:26):
really weird intersection of UM. Yeah, of like great hunting
that abuts this huge metropolis. UM. But there's a there's
an archery range out by JFK Airport where like the
crustiest old um like trad bow hunters go to shoot
their bows every Saturday and Sunday morning. Like, if you
want to get into something hunting or fishing related in

(15:47):
New York City, like you can find people who are
into it, which is pretty cool. There's some There was
a rod and gun club a block and a half
from my apartment in Brooklyn. Um. Yeah, they had a
they had a histol range in the basement and archery
range up on the second floor. Teddy Roosevelt and the
Boone and Crockett Club was like started and whatnot. Yeah.

(16:10):
So he was born in um this old brownstone building
like ten blocks from the old Outdoor Life Office, which
was pretty cool. And then his house, um like his
his summer retreat when he was president. Um it's called
Sagamore Hill and it's out in Oyster Bay on I
think it's the north side of Long Island, so out
where the duck hunting is good, that sort of thing. Man,

(16:31):
that's that's interesting. Interesting. Well, um, Jonathan, we are here
to go on a goose hunt, is that right? What
we're doing on the morning. Yep, We're gonna chase specklebella geese. Yeah.
So so for for people that wouldn't have been familiar
with uh with Black Duck Revival and you're guiding service,

(16:56):
like like talk to us about just kind of like
your place and where we're gonna be doing. Um. So,
you know, Black Duck Revival started just as a as
like a point of lodging and that's kind of how
I've run it, you know, essentially as an airbnb for
the last couple of years for duck hunters, and then
this year we've you know, kind of expanded our offerings. Um,

(17:18):
I've got a couple of long term rentals. Like in
later season, uh, some folks will like have the the
whole place for about a month or so. But for
the earlier part of season, we're doing some We partnered
up with an outfitter about thirty miles away from here
is where most of their fields are around Carlisle, and
uh they've been focusing on speckle belly geese and snow

(17:41):
geese for about seven years, which is just more and
more and more both of those species and uh in
the Arkansas Delta these days, and so we're we're kind
of trying to offer something a little bit unique where
instead of just going to a place to you know,
try and shoot a bunch of birds and uh, you know,

(18:02):
eat rear by dinners and drink beer all night, we're
we're trying to add a little bit more education to
the process. So kind of added ah, we're put together,
I think, uh, a more holistic package. So we'll go out,
we'll hunt geese, we'll come back, we'll eat breakfast, uh,
and then we'll spend a lot of time like talking

(18:22):
about the geese, talking about some species specific stuff with
those birds. Um. Well, I've been showing people how to
wax pluck birds, which is not a real common method.
It's I think they do a lot more of it
down in Louisiana than a lot of other places. But
it's a way to you know, pluck a bird completely
and really get a really nice product. Um. A lot

(18:43):
of folks are kind of stuck in the idea of
just breasting out ducks and geese. So you get a
lot more yield out of the birds. This way, you
learn more about them, You'll learn how to actually work
with them and process them, and you know, just some
of the the rules about trans warding them and whatnot. Uh,
we've done some just one day kind of hunt packages,

(19:05):
and then we've got some full weekend packages, and we're
even doing a couple of kind of corporate things for
some groups this year. But yeah, man, just kind of
trying to you know, expand the brand a little bit
and broaden our offerings and you know, hopefully do a
little bit of good at the same time. So where

(19:26):
we're at right now is a it's a really I'm
impressed with the facility, man. I mean I knew that
I would be, but I mean coming here, I mean
like it's nice, it's like super comfortable. It's bigger than
I thought it would be. I don't know. I mean
just when I walked inn, I was like, hey, this
is bigger than what I thought. It was a big
open floor plan to kind of adds to that. So

(19:48):
what's cool? Boys yelling didn't know this? But Mr Jonathan
this was an old church and he he did all
this and made it into duck hunting lodge. How many
how many people will this lodge hold? So like in
normal times, uh, you'd have you know, I'd normally say,

(20:09):
you know, about seven people in there. There's a queen
size sofa sleeper. There's a queen size bed uh in
the back master bedroom, and then there's two bedrooms with
two folds in each one. Uh. And then I've got
the I've got the building next to it as well
that I fixed up and added on, called the Black
Duck Bungalow, and that's a three bedroom place with five beds. Uh.

(20:32):
But so for like the events I'm putting on, and
because of COVID and everything I've I've kind of kept
kept the numbers down. I'm trying to like everyone's either
in a private room or they're bunking with someone that
they traveled with. So that knocks the numbers down a
little bit this year. But you get on a normal year,
you could hold like maybe twelve people here. I mean

(20:55):
both places maxed out, you'd probably be like twelve or thirteen.
Well that's cool, man. So somebody could come down here
that knew nothing about waterfowl hunting like me, and uh,
you're gonna you're gonna get a a world class goose
hunting experience. About as good as it gets, is it not?

(21:17):
We're getting I mean, I don't want to talk anything
up too much, but uh, you know, so I mean,
and there's a lot of reasons for it, but um,
there's just a lot of speckled bella geese. You know,
the proper name is a white front of goose. Uh
in the Arkansas Delt. Let's keep this legit. So yeah, well,
well from now on called so there's white front of geese,

(21:40):
and there's light geese. Light geese consists of snow geese,
blue geese and which is a color variant, and ross's geese. Um,
and there's just a ton of them in the Arkansas Delta.
Now that's a combination of agriculture, it's a combination of
a habitat destruction down in Louisiana, where like you know,

(22:00):
speckle bellies, like really speckle belly or white front of
goose hunting culture is from Louisiana. So they're just passing there,
usually just passing through here down there. Yeah, there'd always
be some specs here, but uh, I mean they've kind
of evolved to root around in the marshlands of Louisiana
and now because of hurricanes and oil and habitat destruction

(22:25):
a lot of that. Um, so they're not going as
far south. Yeah, I mean, they're still going down there,
but uh, there's just not as much form down there,
it seems, as I understand it right now. Um. And
then a lot of those rice fields and down in
Louisiana there, once they get the rice harvest, they flood
those fields about two feet deep to do a crawfish harvest,

(22:46):
and that's too deep for waterfowl. You know, you gotta
think like a duck wants to be able to, especially
like a dabbling duck or something wants to be able to,
you know, put its butt up in the air, and
when it sticks its head down, it's trying to reach
the bottom. So two feets too deep. Um. So there's
a you know, there's plim plimatic stuff as well. There's
a lot of reasons why there's so many birds in

(23:06):
East Arkansas right now, but it's kind of been a
now it's not it's not ducks though, it's geese. I mean,
there's ducks. I mean, there's still ducks in Arkansas, but
the duck hunting is not as good as it was
came known to be. It's it's getting here, I mean,
it's it depends on who you talk to and what
they have as far as properties to hunt. But Uh.

(23:30):
I mean all in all, duck hunting is is more
difficult than it was you know, say ten years ago.
There's fewer birds. There's a lot of pressure. I mean
there's a ton of pressure on ducks in Arkansas. Um,
it's you know, it's just branded as a place that
people want to come, so you get a lot of
people from you know, especially all over the strom New
York City. Hey, I'm a resident now, Yeah, that's right,

(23:53):
she's in Arkansas now. But um, yeah, man, there's just
there's a lot of pressure here. There's uh like right now,
there's not very much water. It hasn't been very wet
so far this year, and so that limits some of
the places the ducks can go. So you know, I mean, uh, waterfowling,
by its natures, you know, it's like an ephemeral activity

(24:16):
like waterfowl. These are migrating birds and they go different
places and do different things, and so as human beings,
we kind of want stuff to stay the same, but
that's not how nature works, you know, and so there's
these patterns and things shift and we influence it and
nature influences and yeah, there's some kind of some interesting
changes going on right now, and so there's a ton

(24:39):
of opportunity for these speckle bellies and they're fantastic table
fair and they're really fun to hunt, and you know,
you hunt them in a different way. So uh, Like
I said, I partnered up with those guys uh that
have really become experts at it, and you know, I'm
learning every time I go out and take a group out,

(24:59):
I'm learning more and more and more about it, and
you know, getting better at blowing a spec call and
figuring out why we're decoying them this way or that way,
and how they behave differently than you know, mallards, which
is what I've spent most of the last ten years
kind of focusing on. So yeah, man, it's it's it's fun,
and it can be educational, and it's a it's a

(25:21):
really good entry point for people that don't have a
ton of experience, either in water fowling or just in
hunting in general. You know, we've kind of talked about
it before, but you know, human beings they react differently
to birds and fish and reptiles and they do mammals.
So there's there's kind of a little bit less of

(25:41):
a barrier to entry for somebody that might not have
a lot of experience in hunting to kind of enter
the world of of hunting birds as opposed to hunting.
You know, like that idea is not foreign to me,
but I wouldn't have just spouted it off quite that
with that much clarity. I haven't. I haven't thought of

(26:02):
and I mean maybe I've said it before, but just
in this moment, I have not thought of bird hunting
being a good first step into hunting because of because
they don't have eyelashes. Yeah, and it's a boys the
auto I keep talking about for the listeners here, and
I keep talking to my boys. You don't have headphones.

(26:23):
Did you know that they say that animals that have
eyelashes people like connect to differently than animals that don't.
So you can shoot birds, you can kill snakes, you
can kill lizards or whatever. Have you ever heard that, Natalie,
I have yet. My older sister does not want to
kill a big game animal, but she really wants to

(26:45):
shoot birds. That's interesting to me that you say that, though.
Jonathan's like, I feel like there's so much that goes
into successfully hunting waterfowl, everything from gear to like figuring
out birds to the calling that unless you have somebody
like que who's helping people out, it can be really
difficult to crack into. There's a lot of barriers to

(27:05):
entries on it. I mean, it can be expensive. It's
really gear intensive. Like when we hunt tomorrow, we're gonna
be putting out hundreds and hundreds of decoys. Uh. And
so yeah, it's a I think it's a it's a
it's a good place, you know, for mentorship. Um. It's

(27:25):
also something that you know, I would hazard to guess
that most people you know, duck hunting or goose hunting.
It's like you hear a lot in Arkansas, you know
about like a hundred sixty days, which is most people
that tell you that are lying. I mean sixty days.
Sixty days of chasing ducks will just wear you out.
Be hard to keep a regular job doing that. For

(27:47):
most people, it's probably a couple of weekend trips or something.
You know. And so it's a it can kind of
be a little bit more of a special thing. It's
a it's normally most of the time it's kind of
a social thing. Um. And and even in the midst
of all this craziness, you know, with a bunch of
precautions and stuff in place. We're still kind of trying

(28:09):
to keep it, you know a little bit social and
keep some of those barriers to entry, uh, out of
people's way so they can. I mean, it's like I said, man,
if we don't, if we don't fire a shot tomorrow,
like y'all will see a show that'll I mean, it's
just breathtaking. It's like being in a David Attenborough documentary
or something. That's really the way. That's the thing that

(28:31):
strikes me about it the most is it's just so
amazing to see these huge numbers and animals and the
way they moved together. And you know these like amalogus
organisms they're all separate, but they're moving together and uh
and that, and especially with speckle bellies, it's such a
call and response sort of thing. You know, It's like

(28:51):
they make I want I want you to get them.
I want you to do a call for us at
some point, some point. I don't want to do that.
You don't want to do no. I mean, if we
were talking about ducks would be one thing, But I
don't want to embarrass myself with these speckle building balls. Now, Like,
what's your experience goose hunting. Uh, I have some experienced

(29:13):
goose hunting and duck hunting. Um, It's always something I
do with a buddy, though I've never gone off on
my own and done it. Also, I cannot call. I'm
horribly tone deaf, and that's stuff for me. So sure
it would sound great to me, Jonathan, Oh yeah, yeah,
it wouldn't sound great to all the thousands of people listening.
I mean, I'm I feel like I'm rounding the corner
on that spec call. It's a it's a very different uh.

(29:37):
I mean everything is different about the reeds set up,
the wedge set up is different, the air presentation is
very different, what you do with your tongue is different. Uh.
And so I kind of had to unlearn some stuff
from duck calling to start getting a handle on that
spec calling. And then also, specs are like the most
you know, they're like the most vocal species of waterfowl.

(29:58):
They have just a ton of different vocalizations from these
two note yodels two three note yodels to plucks. We
gotta hear it. These bear hunters don't know how to
duck hunt, then gonna be able to They're they're gonna
hear you and be like, man, that guy's good. Well
we'll see what happens. We'll see what happened. Okay, Well,
so the have you written about duck hunting a little bit? Yeah? Yeah,

(30:21):
So where have you duck hunted or waterfowl hunted? Uh?
First place every went was Kansas. Um, so we did. Uh.
One day was like a pit blind for ducks, and
the next was a big field hunt with a bunch
of people and had that sort of show that Jonathan's
talking about. Um. And then I saw a bunch of
geese yeah yeah. And then um, you know, some duck
hunts with a buddy in the Southwest. Um, that long

(30:44):
Island hunt for brandt um. A little bit all over
the place, but nothing where I've gotten to the point
where I'm going out scouting patterning like that's something that's
still pretty foreign and really interesting to me. Yeah. So
we're hunting honkers, Yeah, honkers. And then we killed some
snow geese. Um, a couple of speckled bellies. Um. So

(31:05):
Like while we were driving down here, Jonathan, like right
before dark, like the last thirty minutes before we got
here to Brinkley, we were seeing these big flocks of geese.
We were trying to I was trying to explain to
bear how biologists estimate numbers of any kind of wildlife
that is in flocks or big herds, because he was like,
how many how many geese do you think that is dead?

(31:27):
And I said, the way that you estimate when something's
flying or there's a big herd of elk, as you
would you would try to count as many as you
could and stay on top of, you know, your accuracy.
So if you could count like five, I said, try
to count five geese. And so we were, you know,
these geese are like flying, we're driving, so you know,

(31:49):
it's like hard to like keep your eyes on them,
but we would count five geese. And then I said,
so estimate how many chunks of ducks or geese that
big is in that flock? And so some of these flocks,
we thought, and you know, we we were just totally
probably well we were probably in the ballpark where some
of these vs had to have had two hundred geese

(32:11):
in them, sure, And then but there would be multiple
vs like the so you know, when geese fly, they
fly in these big V patterns, and there would be
like layers of v patterns. They'll just be like these wads.
But I bet we saw I don't know, five thousand
geese the last, you know, forty five minutes driving down

(32:33):
the road. I mean just for us for a while
there any direction you looked, you would see like this cluster,
you know. But I mean, that's pretty fascinating to me. There's, man,
there's tons and tons and tons. I mean I've seen
I've seen a field that geese, you know, I mean
specifically snows where you know, I mean I've thrown the

(32:54):
number out like fifteen or twenty thousand nfield, you know,
in these huge tornadoes that take forever for them all
to get down. Uh, what was it most likely that
we saw out here? Could it could have been any
of those geese that you said it would have been,
I mean, big wads like that. I'd probably if there's

(33:14):
just huge wads of them like that, it's probably snows.
But I mean there'll be snows and specs mixed together.
I mean they'll I mean you can tell by the
way they call, you know. Uh, specs will have that
yodel and snows make a similar noise without as much
of a break in it. So it doesn't. The man
would be great if we could hear it. Man, you know,

(33:36):
YouTube's a fantastic tool. Um the goose call? No, I
will not hey right now? Is there? Like? Are there
snows down here? More like you were talking about? I
like the way you described waterfowl hunting being ephemeral, you know,

(33:57):
meaning that like it changes honestly you might. It might
be really good today not as good tomorrow. Um, Like
what's happening like right now? I mean there's there's ducks here,
there's speckled bellies here, there's uh, there's tons of snows.
There's even within that there's probably like some cacklers, like

(34:18):
lesser Canadas, which one is the biggest? I mean, the
biggest goose of all is gonna be like a greater Canada.
I mean you can there's no can The Canadian geese
don't flock up like these big snow and not here
as much. I mean, there's not nearly as many Canadas.
And it's when it's when it's geese, it's always Canada's.
It's never Canadians. Canadians are people Canada. Would you have

(34:43):
known that, Natalie? Yeah, I've I've hunted in Saskatchewan. Before
in the outfitters do not like it when Americans show
up and want to shoot Canadians. Gotcha, gotcha, got you.
Natalie's a copy editor too, so I figured that. Yeah, okay,
I just learned something, And so did all the my
hill billy bear hunters. How many times have we said that,

(35:07):
Like in the last week a lot. We've got all
these like resident flocks of Canada geese all over that
never leave, you know. So we got Canada geese on
a pond like right by our house that we see
pretty often. That bear really wants to kill. Yeah, you
gotta get permission on that. Man. Oh we got the permission, bro,

(35:28):
you re yeah, yeah, I mean fish and deer hunt
and do whatever we want. Dude, we should go get him.
Jonathan's gonna leave the bazilion geese over here to go hunt.
The two are my only two Canada goose you're gonna

(35:51):
you want to come kill those? We do. I don't
know how many of it there, there's quite a few
at times at times. No, so was that helped me? Um?
So there's no Canada geese here, No, there are, They're
they're just not very many. So like even that's something
that changed. You know, as I understand it, like thirty

(36:11):
years ago, there was a bigger population of Canada that
would come into Arkansas, and now just the migrations change,
they don't. They kind of stopped short in Illinois now.
So there's got to be a biological reason for that.
That has to do with the kind of geese that
they are and what they eat. I mean, I would assume, man,
there's yeah, and there's there's a lot of reasons. Like

(36:33):
if you ask someone wise duck hunting in Arkansas the
way it is right now, I mean, it could be
you could spend hours and hours and hours talking about
it and maybe not still understand all of it. Uh,
but no, I mean it's you'll see Canada's, you could
you could work some occasionally. You know, there's some guys

(36:55):
that and I've seen some guys on Instagram that like
every or there. They're more in the central part of
the state, but they wear Canada's at early season in
September in these strawberry fields. You know. But it's but
it's also a matter of the water fowling culture. You know,
so like Louisiana water fowling culture is based around gad walls,

(37:17):
and speckle bellies. Arkansas waterfowling culture is based around mallards.
You know. Um, you go some places and all they
shoot is diver ducks. And I mean that has to
be connected to opportunity though, right, I mean like, so
maybe the mallards aren't making it all the way down
to Lousiana. Yeah no, no, I mean there's mallards in Louisiana. Uh,

(37:37):
they just don't value them as much. No, there's just
a lot more gad walls and specs historically, so they
just kind of wanted to be successful, so they're like, hey,
let's culturally elevate the gad wall. Yeah. Well, it's just
you know, they call them gray ducks. That's right, That's
what I would do, yeh. I mean like I'm starting
to elevate dough white tailed deer because that's all I
can kill. Well man, it's uh yeah, I mean it's

(37:59):
it's availability, it's opportunity, you know. You you also have
these different flyways, you know, so like the Mississippi Flyway
has more mallards. You know, this place is called black
Duck Revival. We don't get very many black ducks. That's
a that's a East coast thing or uh, and you've
got the Central fly Away and you get the Pacific

(38:20):
Flyway and this is a major mallard flyway. Yeah, this is,
but it's changed into snow goose speckle belly Flyway more
than in times past. Well I'm just I'm we're talking
about speckle bellies and snow geese specifically in Arkansas, not
necessarily the entire flyway. So yeah, this is I mean,

(38:41):
you gotta want to nerd out on ducks and geese
and stuff to really get all this stuff figured out.
And I still don't know all of it, you know,
Like I know, I know some stuff about where I
hunt and less stuff about other places, you know. But
I mean even like how fat the birds are here
as compared to some place else, or uh, you know,
if you go north, they're killing South Dakota, North Dakota,

(39:03):
they're killing ducks in dry fields, like very few ducks
are killed in dry fields in Arkansas, Like our duck
hunting is tied to water, you know. So uh, and
you're talking about the same species. Like up in North
Dakota they'll just flat where mallards out in dry fields,
but here they won't land in the dry field. I

(39:24):
mean they will, but almost everybody's killing them over water. Now,
Are they killing them there because that's the only place
they're at, or they just choose not to hunt dry
fields because that's not the way we do it. Is
that a fair question? Yeah? No, I think it's mostly
because that the ducks are here are tied to water.

(39:44):
But and now these ducks that are landing in what
they call green timber, which would be flooded timber, like,
they're landing into these a lot of places that would
have acorns on the ground. Is that right? That underwater?
Are they eating a lot of acorns? Yeah? So, I
mean they so. I guess what I'm getting at is

(40:06):
maybe in North Dakota the water doesn't have as much food.
On the North Dakota they're eating They're eating food out
of corn fields in the like I should be a
duck biologist, you should, uh now here there so flooded
green timber is um flood of green timber is you know,
that's kind of an ephemeral thing as well. So you know,

(40:28):
say maybe up to September October normally this is just
oak forest. You know, I'll deer hunt and squirrel hunting
these things, and then rivers like the cash and the
white will flood, They'll get beyond their banks and they'll
flood into those uh, those hardwood forests, and then it
floats all that food source up. So you're talking about acorns,

(40:50):
you're talking about invertebrates that you know that live in
the soil um all of that stuff, and ducks get
in there, and you know, it's the same reason that
bears are feed non acorns. You know, it's a calorie
dense food source. And you know, you're talking about a
bird that might have lost of its entire body weight

(41:11):
traveling down flying down here. Yeah, and so then they're
gonna I think it takes maybe five to seven days
they say, for it to replenish that weight that it's lost.
Really that quickly, that seems quick. I mean they'll and
they'll it depends on what they're eating, you know, like
there's actually there's more uh there's more calories and protein
and corn than there is in rice, which even that

(41:32):
could contribute to why you know, there's more birds hanging
out in uh Missouri maybe then coming down here because
Missouri's because we have more rice here. Super complex, yeah, yeah,
super complex, why they land where they land, why they
do what they do. But it's all got to be
connected to to food for them though, because this whole

(41:55):
migration forum is all about all about food. They'd stay
up north if the water didn't freeze, and they could,
they absolutely will. Like that's the thing a duck does
not have. People think that ducks have to fly so out.
They don't have to fly sout. What they're doing is
they're fighting the freeze line and the snow line. It's like,
you know, a duck had of downcoat on, right, A

(42:15):
duck wants it to be thirty three degrees. They want
it as cold as it can be without freezing and
locking up their food. So when it starts getting cold
enough to freeze that water up and lock their food
sources up, or the snow so deep, think they can't
dig through it and get down to that food. Then
move south. And then when you have I mean, like
here's something crazy to think about. You know, you have

(42:37):
like these say like these nuclear plants or something right,
and they're pumping river water in and then expelling it
at a temperature of eighty two degrees or something year round.
So those reservoirs and they're like, they don't freeze up anymore.
They always stay open, so the ducks they're not getting
locked out of it, you know. But I mean, but

(43:01):
just historically this has always been a Mallard fly away.
You know, they've got they've got dig sites of you know,
ancient humans in this area where there's just years and
years and years of just compiled mallard bones. You know
that they were they were killing with you know, bow
and arrow or a slingshot or whatever they were using
at the time. So this is historically all they were

(43:23):
shooting them off the top of the water, not when
they're flying. Probably that's why they call it Arkansas on it, right.
I don't know about that, but no, I guarantee you
they're shooting them. They were getting them anyway they could.
You know. Um, they may not have been as good
as sportsman as we are. That's what I'm getting at, man.
You know, I've got I've got mixed feelings about that

(43:44):
and all the all the rules and and stuff about
about duck hunting. You know, really in my estimation and
this might make me a pariety of some people. You know,
the sport quote unquote in it, Uh, it's in, you know,
communicate and interacting with those birds and convincing them to
coming in land, you know, so like once they've once

(44:04):
they've landed, you've done. I see what you're saying. It's
like the debate do you shoot him? You've heard the
great Big Game debate about which I think is absolutely ridiculous.
There's no debate. But should you shoot a bedded animal? Yeah,
it's like, man, if you if you get in close
to a bedded animal and can shoot it, you've done

(44:25):
your job. That's what I'm hearing you say. Well, I
mean lands on the water, you've done your job. Yes,
Now I would say I'm not. I'm not just making
a living out of water swatting ducks. I don't want
to say that. But you know, I don't I see
your point. I think I think I think a lot
of times, you know, if they if you land a

(44:45):
group of twenty five, a lot of folks will scare them,
you know, the holler atom or something to jump him
off and then shoot him in the air. I don't
know that you're I don't know that you're any really
in less of a duck hunter or any less noble.
If you shoot one and then shoot the rest of it.

(45:06):
They all fly and like again, I've got to reiterate this.
I'm not I'm not saying I'm making a living off
of doing that. Sure, but um, sometimes there's I mean,
as long as you're being ethical and you're following the
law and you're following the rules, then I try not
to try not to get too too deep into how

(45:29):
you should do stuff, like do stuff that you feel
okay with you. You know, I understand, I understand, Natalie,
change your topic here. So I was gonna do this
at first, but I had to establish what we were doing,
and then we went into the deep the duck hole. Um,

(45:50):
tell me about just like your career, like what do
you do for outdoor life? So we're taking a total pivot, Jonathan,
we're gonna come back. We're gonna come back then, and
if you've got some questions for you can have them
as well. But yeah, like, uh, how did you get started?
I just kind of give me like an overview of
your career and outdoor media? Yeah, um, how did I

(46:13):
get started? Yeah? How did I end up sitting right
here with you guys? Like? Yeah, um, I Uh. The
shortest version is that I studied magazine journalism in college. Um.
I really wanted to do photojournalism. That wasn't a major, uh,
but magazine journalism was. And UM, we had had to

(46:35):
go to graduate. I had to do what they called
the journalism residency, and I had to go work at
a publication for we're in the quarter system, not semesters
for a quarter. Um. And there's this whole long list
of publications and there is like, oh, like Fortune and
like Cosmo Girls. I can't go work for any of
those publications. But out Door Life was on the list. Um,

(46:57):
and I picked them, and they picked me because most
JAS students from you know, Chicago did not want to
go work for a hunting and fishing magazine. Uh. So
I interned there in the fall of Did you have
some hunting fishing background at all? Yeah? So I grew up, Um,
I grew up in I grew up in Missouri. UM.
My families all originally from Kentucky. I was born in Kentucky. Um,

(47:19):
We've got a family farm in southern Indiana. So I
grew up in a hunting family. But I I was
around it a lot when I was a kid. But
I didn't buy my first hunting license until I was
in college. UM, and part of that is simply just
I didn't live where I hunted. My mom was not
super into hunting. UM, I'm one of three girls. There's
a whole lot of family dynamics there. But I got
into it a little bit later. But then I got

(47:40):
into it like really hard. Once I started Internet in
O L. I was like why, like why have I
not been doing this in my whole life? And then
I fell down that rabbit hole. So I earned intern
uh followed, and then I graduated college in UM and
I tried of it a little bit, and then I
got a freelancing job at Outdoor Life. UM kind of

(48:04):
heard there might be an assistant editor position open, so
I freelanced for eight months and worked at a restaurant.
UM lived in St. Louis with my sister, just kind
of hoping the job would open up. Uh. And then
it did, and I guess that would have been And
I moved to New York City as assistant editor for
Outdoor Life and I've been there ever since. What does it? Uh?

(48:27):
What what is the skill set that you're really good
at that's made you so you're making a career to
this now you've been outdoor life for six years. Like
I'm still I mean, I consider myself a writer, but
after yeah, yeah, but I am not a copy editor.

(48:47):
I am not. I have no like background education in
uh in English or journalism besides like high school and
just a little bit of college. What it describe somebody
you don't have describe yourself. You can describe yourself. What
skill set do you have that makes you good at
what you do? Uh, that's interesting. There's I mean, there's

(49:11):
a few things that you got me the job, right,
which are like on paper, Um, you know, I can
read and write pretty well. I'm not especially eloquent. Like
the things that I say are not grammatically correct a
lot of the time. Um, and I couldn't tell you like, oh,
this is how you parse a sentence and this is
a predicate in a subject like I don't really I

(49:31):
thought that's what you would be like really good at. Yeah,
in theory, I should be able to, like I don't
speak that grammatical language of being able to like purse
every single thing. You know, I've picked a lot of
it up over the years. But like to me, I
can look at a sentence just the way that I
operate and say there's something wrong there that doesn't make sense,
and I can fix it. But I can't, Like I
don't really care what the techne like the terminology is.

(49:52):
That's not important. Let me ask you a question, let
me stop you. So. I know just from being in
in journalism that nobody write something that isn't edited by
someone else. So when you turn in your stuff to
whoever you turn into, do they go, oh, greatly stuff?
I hope not. Um. Yeah, every and that's what they
say for me now at the new place that I

(50:14):
work Spencer new Hearth. Uh yeah, but what you're writing
is so good you know that it doesn't matter. They're
willing to wade through grammar as long as you've got
something to say. Um. So I will say everybody needs
an editor. People who don't think they need an editor. Yeah,
I mean I I turned my stuff into a couple
of different people. They'll read it. You know, nothing ever

(50:36):
gets posted unless maybe it's an Instagram caption, um, social
media copy that another editor hasn't looked at. Um. So
back to your original question, Like, honestly, like you can
learn to write, you can learn to do a lot
of the stuff that goes into my job. You have
to you have to be curious, Like you have to
be genuinely interested in people. Um. You have to ask

(50:59):
questions like I used to be. Journalism really helped me
learn to talk to people. Um. I used to be
super introverted, Like did not like to pick up the
phone and call somebody, Like I hated doing it. I
used to hate podcasts. I used to make me sweat, um,
But journalism taught me it's like you'd be surprised. Like

(51:20):
it used to make me really nervous. But what I
learned through journalism is like people are fascinating and they've
got fascinating stories to tell. Um. And to be a
good reporter, you need to remove yourself from that a
lot of the time. Sometimes there's times when you're part
of the story. But you also need to know like
when it's not about you, when it's about the people
that you're around. Um, what readers are interested in, Like

(51:41):
what can they learn from this? Like what's fascinating about
what's happening around you? Um? And there's so much of
that in the outdoor industry. UM. Like that is that,
at the end of the day, is the coolest part
of My job is I get to go a lot
of places and meet really interesting people and tell their stories.
And that was a job that I did not know existed. Um,
you know, I knew about it a little in J

(52:01):
school and then I started doing it. It was like
J school journal journal sorryt uh so that I think
you just need to be curious to do this, And yeah,
that's a that's a really good answer, you know. The
I mean, I'm literally I'm asking you that because I'm
I'm interested in it, because I'm I'm trying to understand

(52:22):
these things for myself. Um, what I feel like that
at least the kind of journey air quotes journalism that
I do, which might be videos or might be articles,
and I don't do a lot of like interview type stuff.
Most of the stuff I'm writing about is is my
interpretation of kind of some aspect of hunting or or

(52:45):
maybe even just like a how to tactic thing. But
but it feels like in in media we're trying to interpret,
we're interpreters, you know, So like you're you're here with
Jonathan duck hunting and Eastern Arkansas or goose hunting in
Eastern Arkansas. Like he may think this is like normal

(53:05):
That's the way I always think about it. Like to him,
this is like normal life. He does this all the time.
But we come in here and we're like interpreting where
there's value, where there's interest, where there's significance, where there's
something that's weird, where there's something that maybe people don't
understand that he understands. And it's like putting all that together.

(53:28):
But your word curious says it just perfect. It's not
just about like going somewhere and just like went hunting.
I'm going to talk about the hunting totally and well.
And the other thing too is, um, it's interpreting and
people are going to do that differently, Like your takeaways
from this trip could be totally unlikely will be not
totally different, but there'll be a nuance and they'll be
different than mine, um, you know, And so we would

(53:50):
come away with different stories to tell that may have
central characters and themes and stuff, but um, the takeaway
is different. Um. And that's the other thing. You know.
I mentioned ournalism like school a couple of times, but
you don't, like, you don't need that if you want
to do this, like it's just like hunting like if
you want to get good at it, you just have
to do it, so like you just have to practice

(54:11):
it and try and be interested. So that was the
other caveat. But yeah, it's interpreting. What's your what's your
like favorite thing? Like I could, I could tell you
what my favorite like my bread and butter is inside
of journalists, what's your what's your bread and butter? What
do you what's your what do you focus on? Like
the kind of work I like to do back UM,

(54:33):
I like to do UM. And they're difficult, and they're
the most challenging and I often drag my feet on them.
But my favorite thing to do is to go someplace UM.
It doesn't have to be totally wild, but someplace new
and interesting UM and write a more like in depth, reported,
investigative feature on it. And if I can take photos
to go with it, great. And you give me an example,

(54:56):
you've uh. One of one of the bigger ones was
UM I went into the Boundary Waters in northern Minnesota,
the Boundary Waters Wilderness. UM. I think it was early UM.
I went with a couple of guys who have been
working to protect the wilderness from mining. UM on the
borders Um, it's like one of the most pristine and

(55:17):
most visited wilderness is in the US. We went in there,
uh in March. It was completely frozen over. So we
took these like sleds in camped on the ice for
a few days, ice fish, snow shoot. Um. Just did
a wilderness trip. And when I got out of there,
I had to right about it, Like I had to
write about this battle that was happening in this wilderness,

(55:38):
UM and try and extrapolate my experiences into something that um,
you know it was research, but but would try and
tell a story. UM solved in this story. Yeah, so
I haven't. Yeah, I happened to play a role there.
And part of that is just because, like I went there,
it was sort of on the ground reporting. UM. And
what's tricky about that and kind of fun is like
some of it can get dry, like people can get

(56:00):
worn out about, oh, sign this petition save this place.
It's like, well, I don't live there, Like I'm worried
about this. You know, people get that that fatigue around
a lot of public lands and a lot of the
issues that are happening. And so the challenge there for
me was how do I make this place and these
people important to somebody who's never been here but maybe

(56:20):
might want to one day, or it's related to something
that's going on where they live. Um So to me
to do that is is the most fun. Um and
again that's that includes people in new places. Um. You know,
I did something I've never done before, which was sleep
on a couple of feet of ice and ice fish
like I'm not from the north, like, I've never done
that before freezing, but it was awesome. So what what

(56:43):
what about you? What's your m you know, not being
solely like when I think about my outdoor media world,
like I'm kind of segmenting it into writing, v DEO podcasting.
You know, I think I feel most accomplished and feel

(57:05):
like I've probably done the best interpretation of a of
a of a of a hunt and portraying that to
people in a way that's compelling. It's probably through video,
Like I probably like video more than anything, but I
have recently, Uh well, I've been toying around with some

(57:28):
longer form writing, and uh I actually like that better
than so. For the last seven years with Bare Honey magazine,
I've pretty much trained my brain when I write to
think magazine article like I just thinking, you know, word blocks,
you know, with subpoints in a sidebar. So the last

(57:50):
year I've been doing some longer form writing with a
potential project that I'm doing, and um, that has been
really fun, like uh yeah, like like book chapters, like
just you know, having bigger space, longer time to do it. Um.
So for writing, I like the longer form communication really.

(58:15):
But but also love too, And people that listen to
this podcast would to hear this. I do. I do
love people in love, you know, just authentic, genuine people
interviewing them. Um, I do enjoy that I do. And
we've had some pretty pretty cool interviews on this podcast

(58:35):
with some old guys and interesting guys that uh probably
never well I had to tell them what a podcast was.
That's usually my favorite kind of guests. You guys are
like in the nose, you know what a podcast is.
But it would have been cooler, Natalie if you would
have sat down and you have said, Clay, what are
we what are we doing? What is this? That would
have been like, yeah, this this is gonna be good.

(58:56):
No no, um no, I get. What I'm trying to
say is guys that the world doesn't know the interview
and those kind of guys and I got, I got,
I know a lot of them. Those are usually guys
I gravitate towards. But no, so yeah, um man, you
weren't supposed to ask me a question. Another this is

(59:19):
what I do for a living. I asked people questions podcast.
Wait can I ask Jonathan a question? Yes? Yes? What
about you, Jonathan? I know you like to write, but like,
what's um, where do you stand on this as as
far as what what interests me? Like what like if

(59:39):
you're telling the story, like whether it's ring or like
like because you you you do right? Yeah, I mean
I think I'm uh, I think I'm probably best at
examining my own perspectives and my own interpretations of stuff.

(59:59):
Uh uh, just trying to be self analytical about it.
And I kind of worked from the premise that the
the more personal you can make something, the more universal,
uh the applicability of it is, you know. Uh, I
mean I don't know that I'm I don't know that
I'm experienced enough to act like I have some sort

(01:00:21):
of an expertise or anything. Like. Most of what I've
written is uh either kind of academically research based or
like real, super personal, and I kind of feel like
I'm developing a style that's a blending of those two. Yeah.
Jonathan wrote a really cool piece for US on a

(01:00:43):
guy named Hoyt Holt Collier who was who was? He's
an African American guy that guided Roosevelt on the famous
bear hunt in Mississippi when they Holt Collier was the
guy that actually last swed the bear and had it

(01:01:03):
tied up for Roosevelt. Is that right? Johnny wrote a
cool article for US and Barony Magazine about that. You
did a good job with it. That was cool. That
was that. I got a lot of comments on that
story just because it was Yeah. But man, well, um, shoot, Natalie,
your question is totally through. I had another question for you, Um,

(01:01:27):
are you uh but you're a writer? I mean like
your main focus is writing? Um? In theory, yes, Um,
A lot of what I do day to day is
editing and often writing. I put that last. Um, I
used to freelance before I got the full time job.
But there's a whole lot of things that going to
being an editor. Um, I should write more, but I

(01:01:49):
procrastinating what's outdoor life trying to do? Like, what what
is there. I mean, like outdoor Life is such a
iconic brand for outdoor I mean, you know, arguably the
most recognizable name really in the hunting and fishing space,
especially long term. Like what are they? I don't know,

(01:02:12):
what are they? What are they trying to do these days? Yeah? Yeah,
we've been around since Um we're still I don't know,
to simply, we're trying to tell good stories. I mean
that's what we like to do. Is we like to
tell stories. We like to report on stuff. We do
a lot of conservation stuff. Um. We do more reporting
than a lot of um, I think titles in the

(01:02:33):
hunting space, both online and in print. Um, even a
little bit more than our sister publication Field and Stream.
So we just like to do stuff that people are
interested in. And and what's cool is even if say,
you know, I write something about speckle belly hunting, like
ideally somebody who is reading ter Life for the deer
hunting like could read that and still be interested. UM.

(01:02:55):
So I mean we're a general title. We'll talk about
all kinds of stuff, including bear hunting. Um. But at
the end of the day, that's what we hope to accomplish. Yeah, Now,
outdoor life. Do they have any video arm of what
they're doing? We do? I mean, I do a little
bit of video. Like we're all kind of one man bands.
We we used to do um back in the heyday

(01:03:16):
of Facebook, before all the algorithms change, we did a
lot of Facebook video. Um. And so I've done various
types of video, but we don't we don't have a
dedicated video production team. Okay, got it, got it? Um? Hey, Jonathan,
I need to tell you a story that is relevant

(01:03:37):
to me sitting here right now. This this, this is
a ridiculous story. Okay, okay, um, bar you know what
I'm about to say. Baron Nukem was involved in the story.
This happened yesterday. Like I'm almost not sitting in this
chair because of what happened. That a decision that I made.

(01:04:00):
I've been hunting a deer and I'm not gonna say,
like I kind of have to keep the cards like
spread across the table, face down, like in all my hunting.
So I hunt down in South Arkansas, I hunt up
in Northwest Arkansas. I kind of hunt all over western Arkansas. Okay,
So I'm not gonna say where this happened. And I
can drive to these places and do a day hunt.

(01:04:21):
So so who knows where this happened, but I have
been after a really big buck. The best buck that
I've had on camera in since two thousand twelve? Is
that right? Best buck I've had on camera since two
thousand twelve? Okay, I I think the deer's a hundred

(01:04:43):
sixty inch deer. It's probably a hundred and fifty inch deer,
but we've been calling it the one sixty. We've actually
renamed the deer after the story I'm about to tell you.
Um so yesterday, the Arkansas year season last until tomorrow.
Rifle season. Okay. I typically am I bow a white

(01:05:06):
tail bow hunter. I mean, like that's what I've where
I've made my money, metaphorical money, and deer hunting is uh,
white tail bow hunting, and but in recent years I've
kind of become more of a white tail generalist, especially
when it comes to taking a big deer, which we
kill a lot of you. I mean, my these boys

(01:05:27):
have literally been raised their whole life on deer meat,
so we're meat hunters. But we were not afraid to
shoot a big one and not afraid to target a
big one specifically and dedicate ourselves to that. Well. I
got pictures of this deer. Early have hunted white tail,
hunted more this year than I have in many, many years,
motivated by this deer. Okay, I've seen a deer with

(01:05:50):
my eyes two different times, Jonathan, I haven't said any
of this publicly. Um. I had to dear at twenty
five yards on October the nine. I had my bow
in my hand and could not shoot the deer. Um.
Yesterday morning, I went to a place that I like

(01:06:11):
to hunt and had intentions of hunting this place. The
creek was too high. I could not cross the creek,
so I had to reroute my whole day for hunting.
And the day it was pretty much like shot, I
decided to go. I had given up on this big deer.

(01:06:31):
That's the that's the other. This is a short version
of a very long story. This deer. I have not
had pictures of him, uh since November, the one I
had it, picked a lot of pictures of him in October.
Then he disappeared. So for the last thirty days, this
steers just gone. And you know, I had zero confidence

(01:06:52):
that I was maybe ever gonna see him again. Maybe
he got killed. Maybe he wasn't gonna come back. I
didn't have many years of experience with this deer. Sometimes
you get, you know, years of experience with the deer,
sea can kind of predict when they're gonna start showing
back up in a certain place. I've had that happen
over the years, and You're like, Yeah, that deer is
gonna show up after the rut. Well I didn't. I

(01:07:12):
didn't have that experience with this deer, didn't know it,
hadn't seen the deer on camera in thirty days, and
so the day was shot in this one particular location,
and so I'd given up on this deer. But I
ended up hunting in the area that this deer was
in for the sole purpose of shooting a dough. Like

(01:07:33):
I I went in there and I told bar I said, man,
I'm just gonna go shoot a dough. That was what
I was gonna try to do. And uh, oh, this
is a sad story. Still hurts um. I go in
to shoot a dough and uh I am carrying a
muzzloader for reasons that for many reasons the muzzloader that

(01:07:59):
I have, but I love it. It's very light where
I'm hunting there's no chance really of getting two shots
in any game. The smuggloaders accurate like it's super light small,
it's it's like super short. I enjoy carrying the gun.
I've killed a lot of critters with muzzloaders during firearms seasons,
so I didn't think much about carrying the muzzloader. I'm

(01:08:21):
do hunt. I'm trying to tell the story so that
it comes out the best. I'm sitting there the last
two hours of daylight yesterday and was not really even hunting,
to be honest with you, I was like looking at
my phone. I was distracted, Like I was like, not,

(01:08:41):
of all the honey I've done this whole year, I
was it was the least it was the most distracted
hunt I've been on the entire year. At about four
forty five, I have five bucks come walking through, which
was news to me because these bucks had got back
into a bachelor group. They were all year old bucks,

(01:09:01):
spikes and three points five of them, you know, the
single file line, came walking past me and I was like, huh,
that's interesting. That perked me up, you know, and uh,
one of them started looking back behind him, looking back
behind him, looking back behind him, and sure enough, the
buck that I've been after all year. I just turned

(01:09:25):
and he's at forty yards right there. I've got a hunt.
I've got a muzzloader that shoots like lights out. You know. Um.
The problem. The problem comes in with what happened a
week before when I hunted in the rain for about

(01:09:46):
six hours straight and I had not reloaded the muzzloader
after the rain, but earlier in the season. This is
a new I'm gonna tell I mean, everybody knows what
I'm shooting. I'm shoot a c V, a accurate mountain rifle.
It's not the gun's fault. What's about to happen? Okay,
I'm foreshadowing earlier in the year, Jonathan, I hunted in

(01:10:10):
heavy rain for hours and I was carrying that muzzloader
and I thought, man, there's no way this gun will shoot.
And I cocked it back when I got done honeting,
just to test it. It's a brand new Gunoh shot
just great. And I've been sitting in the rain, so
I was like, man, I got a lot of confidence.
Three weeks two weeks ago, I was walking across the

(01:10:32):
same creek I couldn't cross the other day, fell in
the creek. While I was holding the muzzloader, the breech
plug went under the water. I filmed this, and I
was like, I wonder if a single shoot. When I
got back to the truck, I put my camera up
on the grill in my truck, cocked the hammer boom,
shoots just perfect like so I have like incredible confidence

(01:10:55):
in this gun not letting exterior water to get into
the pirate ex pellets. Okay, what Clay did not calculate
is extreme weather variations in my truck. This this week,
it got up to down to like twenty one degrees

(01:11:15):
up in northwest Arkansas. And then it was also inside
of my truck was probably getting up into the sixties
and seventies at different times during the day. And I
just left my gun in my truck. And what happens
with muzzloaders. And I knew this, but I just for
some reason, it didn't account for me. You know, it
just wasn't gonna happen to me. Those muzzleloaders when they

(01:11:36):
go through like big temperature swings and you have them loaded,
they will condensate moisture in the barrel. So it wasn't
the rain. Well, I'm just now kind of thinking all
this through. Uh it this is also fresh well, and
I had figured this before. It was it was, it wasn't.
It was not the rain that happened the week before

(01:11:57):
that did happen. It was the It was being in
my truck and the fact that I hadn't reloaded it
since that day. Anyway, this big, big d fifty easy
plus buck stand there, thirty five yards hunted all season.
I put the crosstairs on him, and that gun just
just pops in a ball of fire, spits out of

(01:12:21):
that barrel and lands about ten yards out in front
of my gun, and uh, the deer just runs off.
So no, no deer, no huge deer for Clay. That's
my story. Story story. Yeah, yeah, it's terrible story. So

(01:12:42):
the reason that is relevant to me being here right
now is if I had known that deer was anywhere
in the country, I would probably be up there hunting tonight.
But because I spooked him so bad last night, I'd like, like,
course we're going to something. You go get him at

(01:13:03):
the Christmas hunt, Well, I'll bow hunt him. I mean,
if he's still around these deer like this, I wouldn't
be surprised if I didn't see that deer again. May
you know potentially next year, I think he would. I mean,
I don't know, I don't know if I don't know
if I'll see him again. How bad did they run off?
Everybody's asked me that question, and I don't think that's

(01:13:25):
really a fair question. When deer run off, they just
run off. You don't have deer run at different speeds.
They all like leave at top speed. You know, that's funny.
There was there was tail up like that's what's bizarre.
As I saw nothing. There was blues, you know, like

(01:13:47):
the the pellets ignited to some degree. What I think
happened is I think that there was like partial ignition,
and so the bullet probably just like hit the dirt
right out in front. But what puffed out was part
of that pirated X pellet that was like half ignited.
And so I think I was so focused on like

(01:14:07):
the malfunction, I didn't even see him run off, Like
I never even saw him run off. So we spent
a good part of this morning looking for the I
went and looked for the deer, tried to find any
indication of if it was hit, and nothing. I made
big loops and circles. So I'm, you know, ninety nine

(01:14:28):
point nine percent sure that the deer was not was
not hit. So anyway, I just had to tell you
guys that story, so you would you know, just no, Yeah,
well I hate that happening, but I'm glad you came
to to a waterfowl hunter like Jonathan. He's like, what's
the big deal? Man, I missed a goose yesterday over that? Man,

(01:14:52):
I mean I killed, I was killing deer before I
was killing ducks. Yeah. Well Bear was heartbroken over it too.
Bear was after this deer too, but he killed. He
used both of his buck tags up. So no, I'm
still trying to process the emotional trauma. I mean, I've
missed plenty of deer, but this is the biggest deer

(01:15:14):
I've ever missed, and it's the it's the just having
one in your lap that close with No. I mean,
when I saw him, I was just like, this is it? This,
this is done deal. So that's that's what's hard for
me to stomach. It wasn't like he was a little
bit out of range, or he was walking or he

(01:15:36):
was running away. When I show it was like I
could have hit him with a rock. That's what's said,
and I do want to say that. I just want
to say it again. Like people have heard me rant
about how great my c v A is, it is.
I still love the c b A. If you drop
in the water and pick it up, I think it
was shoot. If you leave it in your truck with

(01:15:56):
fifty degree temperature swings, any muzzloader in the world it's
not gonna shoot. So here's what I learned. And the
whole reason that I'm going to tell that story is
because of the breach the breech plug on those c
v as, you can just screw out with your hand.
You don't need a tool, which every muzzler I've had
you have had to have a tool. You just gotta
unload it. You just gotta screw out the breech plug,

(01:16:18):
pour the pirated X pellets out, and you know it's
just a little pellets, and you just put those pellets
back in just like you're loading a single shot gun,
just like I mean, pretty much every time you hunt.
That's what I'm gonna do from now on. Yeah, man,
I actually I learned that lesson, uh when I was
hunting that bear and I found on that sign and
I called you about it, and I went back and

(01:16:39):
I sat out there in the rain like underneath this, uh,
this little outcropping of rock, and uh, I never even
thought i'd actually like put a duct tape over the
over the barrel of the gun and then right there
by the breech plug. I thought I was good to

(01:16:59):
go and that whatever. I didn't kill that bear, and
I went home. Like a week later, I pulled that
thing out and it was just, you know, it was like, uh,
it was like a poultice or something in there, Like
it wasn't solid anymore. It was like a paste of pirate.
Week later, it wouldn't have shot. Yeah, I mean, but

(01:17:21):
I think I'm afraid of that bear to come out,
you know, twenty yards and I shot at it wouldn't
have fired. So yeah, and I didn't. I hadn't messed
with muzzleloaders a ton at all up to that point. Now.
I mean, I did kill a deer last year with
that same muzzleloader, but just very different conditions. So yeah, man,
that uh, oh god, it hurts my heart for you. Man.

(01:17:44):
You know, I've never had any trouble with muzzloaders. This
is the first time, and I love muzzleloaders because of
the you're getting hot with a firearm and a in
a in a good part of the season usually, but
on this in this case, it was going against me
because it was during a firearm season. I mean, I
could have been carrying a rifle, but it was just like, Man,

(01:18:05):
this gun shoots as good as rifles I've got, I'm
gonna shoot this gun. So I learned a valuable lesson,
very very valuable. Um uh So anyway, that's that's why
I'm so sad. Jonathan. We'll see if we can change
it tomorrow. Man. Yeah, Man, I'm looking forward to it

(01:18:27):
very much. So. Um Natalie, any any uh closing thoughts?
We can We've been we've we've We've been talking for
an hour and twelve minutes, which is about on on
par for the Barony Magazine podcast. Well, I do, but
I'm not gonna start anything fresh now. Oh you have something? No, No,

(01:18:48):
I could, No, I don't know, no, no. I I
was just thinking about my mishap with during muzzle inter season.
Serious is the bear story I was telling about earlier?
The only thing I wanted to because he says the
bear Hunting magazine I passed and I didn't wanna, you know,

(01:19:08):
only talk about Um. I did something stupid during muzzle
inter season this year in Arkansas, which was I was
running behind and I did not check my muzzleloader before
I went out to go hunt in the Ozark National Forest,
UH with a couple of buddies. UM. So I took

(01:19:29):
my bow with me because I was like, great, like,
you know, I'll just shoot my bow. There's arrange ne
your camp. I can go in the middle of the
day on the opener just like check it. But I
don't want to take something out that I might have
knocked off whatever. I've been a few years since I
shot it. So opening morning of muzzleoadter season, I go
one around the National Forest and I don't know, it's
probably like eight am, nine am something like that. I

(01:19:51):
sit down on this trail. Um. It's kind of this
big open bowl in front of me, and I see
what looks like a pretty good game trail UM. And
I'm on the side of the this ridge and I
just sit down and eat breakfast for like fifteen minutes,
put my rapper away. I'm just sitting there and here
comes a bear down this trail, and I mean, I
just moved to Arkansas. I heard their bears here, but
I've never been just like sitting in the woods like

(01:20:11):
I've I've killed a bear before, I've hunted bears, but
it's been nothing like this in Arkansas. Um. And it's
just coming down the trail, and I'm like, oh, this
is perfect, because it looked like he was going to
take this trail down into this little bowl. And I'm sitting,
you know, fifty yards up on the hillside, perfect manage,
almost like I'm in a tree stand, um, And he's
gonna walk down below me. Except for what happens is

(01:20:34):
he doesn't follow the valley down. He starts walking towards me. Um.
And I'm sitting there with my bow, and I forgot
how bad their eyes are because I shifted a little bit,
and I you know, I clipped my release to the
bow and I kind of turned and was waiting for
him to walk down broadside and he just kept coming,
and he kept coming, and he was facing me. Why
didn't this happen to Jonathan is burning the boot leather

(01:20:56):
off his boot with the muzzle loader would have been perfect.
But meanwhile his bear is just facing me head on.
He's not a very big bear. So it's not like
his chest is like right in front. You know, I
don't have a shot with my bow, and maybe somebody
else would have shot him right in the chest, but
he just kept coming and kept coming, and so I
was sitting there frozen, waiting for him to maybe turn
I could get my broadside shot. And finally he's about

(01:21:18):
three yards for me, like we're Jonathan sitting and he
finally looks up and he just stares at me for
about thirty seconds, and I stare at him and the
only I mean the only shot I have is his
head um and I don't know have my bow drawn
because I was waiting for him to turn, and we
just stare at each other for about thirty seconds, and
he turns around and he runs away the exact way

(01:21:38):
it came. So I went from head to ask and
he just took off um. And had I done my
homework and brought my muzzle loader with me, I probably
could have shot the bear the opening day muzzloader season. Man,
what an experience. But that one's my fault. That's not
leaving a that's that's not an active nature messing with
the power. That was just me being Stu good. So anyway,

(01:22:01):
that's my bear story. That was the only thing I
had to add to take away. I wouldn't I wouldn't
hold your breath waiting for that to happen again in Arkansas.
That's awesome. I mean I wish, I wish you'd have
killed it. Where where have you killed a bear up
in Saskatchewan? Um? Yeah, that was also with muzzle or

(01:22:21):
with CB Yeah. M that's a good bear story. That's
a good bear story. It would have been better if
I killed him. But hey, first day hunting in Arkansas?
Did you do you have any intel into why the
bear was there? I mean, like, was there something going
on the trail itself that I had seen in retrospect?

(01:22:43):
I realized and after having talked to my buddies who
used to see a bear sign around there, it was.
It was a bear trail. I mean it was covered
in leaves and it was wide. Um, it wasn't worn
down to the dirt like a deer trail. It wasn't narrow.
I mean, it was pretty wide and it was just
that's the only thing I can figure. Um, and sort
of trail down something he used pretty often. Cool, now,

(01:23:06):
you know, I don't if somebody, if if you said,
would someone have done a frontal shot on I mean
that would be super risky even with I mean he
was three yards away and if your bows heavy enough,
and he he was a younger bear, So I do
think that it would have. It might have been really
hard trail to follow, but I mean, shoot, bears are
hard to trail anyway. Um, so some people I know

(01:23:28):
probably would have taken that shot, but I just I
didn't and I wasn't ready. So that's cool, very cool. Well, um,
Jonathan closing thoughts that we do, just that we I
feel like we took a pretty good swat at understanding
a little bit about waterfowl and kind of what's happening.

(01:23:50):
I mean, obviously it's an an ending topic of conversation,
but but at least for what we're doing. I mean, like, uh,
we're gonna be out. We didn't really talk about exactly
what we're doing. We're gonna be We're gonna be sitting
in layout blinds in the middle of a big spread
of decoys in agricultural fields and you guys have been

(01:24:11):
seeing like thousands of geese, am I right? Yeah, So
we're not gonna we're not actually, we're not gonna be
in layout blinds. We're just gonna be on backboards. I mean,
it's just uh, I mean, we're gonna be laying out there, uh,
in the middle of the decoys. We're gonna be wearing
white trying blending with the snow goose decoys. And yeah, hopefully, uh,

(01:24:34):
if they do what they they have done the last
few few hunts, than uh, well, some good opportunities for shots.
And man, it's a it's a cool way to do
it too, because you're just out there in the middle
of it, you know. Uh, even even like hunting timber
and stuff. Here you're you're behind a tree, You've got
tree tops and whatnot over you like doing it this way,

(01:24:56):
You're just out there in the middle of it all.
And U it's a cool way to experience it, you know. Yeah, Man,
I'm I'm really looking forward to it, you know. In
all the waterfowl and again I'm I'm I'm not a
I'm not I've not done a lot of waterfowl hunting,
but just like looking at waterfowl from the outside in
goose hunting seems like to me, it was it's more

(01:25:19):
appealing than even like duck hunting and timber and I
realized that would like make people angry me saying that probably,
but like big big goose, Remember I gotta feed all
these kids cheese. Are so big, they're beautiful. They come
in these huge, massive flocks the way you described them
coming in like terrible terrod actyls. They got me going.

(01:25:42):
So anyway, I'm looking forward to it, Jonathan, It'll be
it'll be fun. I mean, they come in singles and
triples and stuff too. I mean, I'm I'm describing best
case scenario to you, but I mean really with all
of it, it's uh, it's the it's the convincing them,
you know, it's the it's the interaction. It's like, you know,

(01:26:02):
like what a lot of people like about turkey hunting
is like you're directly interacting with the animal. It's it's
not just an ambush scenario. I mean, there's ambush and ducks,
there's pond jumping and stuff, but that's not That's not
what this is. This is them thinking that they are
landing with a bunch of their buddies, you know, will

(01:26:22):
will some of them actually hit the ground, land land
in the deeks. Yeah, I mean it depends, Uh, at
what point do they realize that they're surrounded by like
white tak weather vanes. Man, it's so, I mean, would
they just land in it and just like start eating
and there? I mean they will, They'll land, They'll land,

(01:26:45):
They'll look A lot of this is depending on the weather.
It's dependent on the wind. Like you know, if we're
hunting these silo socks, like, uh, seven miles per hour
wind totally transforms it. You know, like if it's to
my I was an hour, it's it's hard. Okay, So
you a seven mile per hour wind on these silo socks,

(01:27:07):
which are these white like weather vanes on a steak,
makes it look like flock seven and ten miles per hour.
That that's what you want. Yeah, I mean that's that
wind isn't freezing me out real bad or anything, but
it's making those things bob and move and even like
a full body decoy is gonna move around a little
bit of that wind, Like you always want some wind
for waterfowl decoys just on water or anything else. But yeah,

(01:27:32):
I mean, shadows matter, overcast days versus sunshiny days matter,
cloud cover matters. Uh, they can it's it's much easier
for them to pick you out on an overcast day
than it is on a bright, sunshiny day, you know. So,
I mean there's all these difference and even like you'll

(01:27:52):
see a difference in fifteen minutes, Like we're waiting for
the sun to hit us. We've got too many shadows
on us. When that sun gets right over there and
hits us and lights us up, they'll want to come
in better. Sophemeral, man, it's like the the undulating nature
of of birds. But it can be like like I

(01:28:13):
said before, man, it's it's stupendous just to be a
part of it, you know, and just to observe it,
and just to be able to interact with with an
animal on in that way. So I mean, even if
you don't, if you don't fire shot there, they're still
good days. They're still good hunts, you know. So, Jonathan,
how could people like? Uh? So, like next year, like

(01:28:36):
you'll be booking hunts here, Like how could people find you? Yeah?
So it's like same as regular man, as Black Deck
Revival dot com or Black Deck Revival on Instagram. There's
a there's a snow goose hunt for the the first
few days of February. That's like a conservation Do you
have any hunts that are still available for this season?

(01:28:58):
That that's the last one. Tell when it is. So
it's a it's like the first three days or the
the last day in January is arrival and then you
hunt the first two days of February. That's a so
called Jonathan and come hunt with him. Yeah, you can
come hunt snow geese. That's a conservation hunt. You don't
have enough money, but now it's a it's a cool
way to see a ton ton ton ton of birds, uh,

(01:29:20):
and just experienced something cool. So there there's a few
spots on that left and yeah, we'll be we'll probably
still do some goose hunts next year and probably try
and do some different stuff, you know, like Black Diock
Revival is he's a it's it's a femb role as well,
you know, like I see it being here, I see
it being you know, not always being contained to hear,

(01:29:42):
but you know, following birds and going different places and
trying different species and uh, just giving people an opportunity
to to try something or kind of be welcomed into
something that they might be interested in and really try
something neat man, this is such a perfect time. The
one thing I do like about this hunt and and

(01:30:03):
the especially the hunts after the first of the years
that most of the big game hunting is done. And
I think that's why waterfowl hunting probably if water howl,
if waterfowl hunting had to compete with September, October, November
big game hunting, it probably wouldn't be as big as
it is, or maybe big game hunting wouldn't be as
big as it is. But I like it that they
kind of they kind of they overlap something, but they

(01:30:26):
kind of you know, you can do all the deer
hunting you want and then go waterfowl hunting. And these
these hunts aren't expensive, I mean as compared to most things.
So I mean people could afford to most people could
afford to come down here and hunt with you. And
uh yeah, so it's yeah, I mean there's day there's

(01:30:47):
day hunts, just one day hunts you know that are
that are you know a few hundred dollars Yeah, so
it's I mean I'm not saying that. I mean a
few hundred dollars is a few hunter bucks, but yeah,
it's not it's not gonna cost you what a moose
and Saskatchewan or something's gonna coast you. Yeah, exactly. It's
a it's a cool, fun thing to do, like James
Brandonberr came down with his son, you know, and it's

(01:31:08):
kind of like a perfect thing for that. Yeah. And
it's we're not roughing it man, I mean you're cooking
for us. It's cool. It's cool man. Nowally, how can
people find you? Uh, you can go to outdoor life
dot com or find us on Instagram. It's Outdoor Life
or Outdoor Underscore Life. Um, follow us there, find our
stories magazines on the news stand. Okay. Cool, Well, thank

(01:31:32):
you guys. Good to talk with you. Natalie Jonathan. As always,
it's a pleasure, truth end. Yeah, thanks for having us
keep the wild place as wild because that's where the
speckled Billy Geese lived. Nine

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