Mutt of the South: Josh Kaywood of BHA

Clay Newcomb sits down with Josh Kaywood of the Backcountry Hunters and Anglers to discuss their mission and what he does for the organization. They also talk about why some have labeled BHA a “green decoy” and have an open discussion about some of the internet controversy surrounding the organization. This is a good conversation! If you’ve been on the fence - check it out.

 

Bear Hunting Magazine is Powered by Simplecast

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:00):
You're listening to the Sportsman's Nation podcast network, brought to
you by Interstate Batteries. Interstate Batteries has been a proud
supporter of the Sportsman's Nation since day one. So if
you're looking for any type of batteries, whether it's for
your truck, your car, your trail cameras, your range finder,
stop into a local Interstate Batteries retail location. There are

(00:23):
thousands upon thousands of them all over the United States.
Talk with a battery specialist and get the batteries that
you need to go on with your life. Interstate Batteries
outrageously dependable. My name is Clay Nukeleman. I'm the host

(00:44):
of the Bear Hunting Magazine podcast. I'll also be your
host into the world of hunting the icon of the
North American wilderness. Prepare. We'll talk about tactics, gear conservation.
We will also bring you into some of the wildest
drink on the planet, chasing back. This week we have

(01:11):
Josh Kwood, James Brandenburg, the back Country Hunters and Anglers.
We talked about that organization. We even dig a little
bit into the nitty gritty fun conversation with these guys.
You're gonna enjoy it. Our partners W Hunting Supply, they're
ready for you. They're ready for your call, they're ready

(01:32):
for your order for whatever you need. When it comes
to dog related stuff. It's getting to be wintertime and
that's when a lot of hound related dog related activities
are taking place. Like us, we're about to start squirrel
hunting and coon hunting a lot. W they're one of
the biggest distributors for garment in the country. They have
the new garment Alpha two and they have everything that

(01:55):
you need for any pund or dog related activity. Check
out out our friends Buddy Woodbury and his team at
W Hunting Supply. There's still several muzzloader seasons going on
right now and we'll continue to go on throughout the
rest of the year. If you're looking for the muzzloader,

(02:15):
check out c v A Muzzloaders. They're making the best
muzzloaders on the market. What I like most about my
c b A Accurate Mountain Rifle is that it's a
breakover gun with a removable breech plug that you don't
need the tool to remove. You're in the field, you

(02:35):
need to check and see if you're guns loaded you're
in the field and you need to reload, maybe you
feel like your powder got wet. That happened to me
the other day. I was in a torrential downpour for
several hours with the muzzloader. The next time I hunted,
I was fearful that the powder would be wet, so
I removed the breech plug by hand in the field.

(02:57):
Turns out the powder was not wet. It was perfectly dry.
The gun would have fired perfectly, but it gave me
peace of mind to know that the powder was drying
c v A. They have an incredible guarantee on all
their guns. Check them out north Woods Bear Products. If
most of the bear baiting seasons are over right now,

(03:18):
even though I have one time baited bears in November
here in Arkansas. But if you're getting ready for spring,
whatever you're doing, north Woods Bear Products. They make the
highest quality commercial bear scent that you could that you
could use. Makes your sense extremely potent, makes your baits loud,

(03:41):
and it draws in more bears than they natural food could.
Check out our buddies at north Woods Bear Products. Josh Kwood.
We've got Josh Kwood here to my uh my, northeast.
Here you can get out of my compass. James Brandenburg

(04:03):
here to my right. Um, what do you guys doing, James,
why are you at the global headquarters? Oh? We wanted
to mess up your deer hunting for the day. You
you did that? No, he Josh is with you work
full time for back Country Hunters and Anglers, sir. Yeah,
and then James, you're the Arkansas Chapter chair, Arkansas Chapter

(04:26):
Chair of the back Country Hunters and Anglers. So yeah.
So I just want to Josh, this is a unique
situation of the podcast because I hardly know you at all,
and we were standing outside the door and I was like,
don't tell me anything about yourself, don't tell me where
you're from, don't tell me because I wanted to do
it here. So this is a good This is a
good way to to get to know who you are

(04:47):
because you work full time for back Country hundred Anglers. Sir. So,
I'm the Southeast Chapter coordinator for back Country Hunters and English.
So I cover Arkansas, Tennessee, Georgia, UM, North Carolina, South Carolina,
and then what's left of the Southeast chapter now, which
is Mississippi, Alabama. In Louisiana. So before I ask you,

(05:11):
like what you do, give just a general overview of
back country hunters and anglers. Yeah. The way I like
to think about it is we are, uh, we're nonprofit
focused on preserving public landing access for sportsmen and sports women.
So we want to make sure that folks have a
place to go hunting fish and that there's ample habitat

(05:33):
to support the game and fish that they're pursuing. So
so access access is huge. That's that's your main that's
your main focus, main focus. Yeah, that's gonna come up
later in our conversation. I have a feeling because all
these big national groups have focuses. Yep, there's in all

(05:54):
of them are so important and critical for this big
picture that we're really all trying to achieve, which I
think is long term high quality hunting and fishing access
for generations to come. I mean sustainable long term. That's
what I think. That's what Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation wants.

(06:15):
I think that's what b wants. I think that's what
s c I wants. I think that's what Boone and
Crockett wants, that's what National Trick Your Federation wants. Absolutely
everybody's got their own place. Hold that thought in your mind,
because we're gonna come back to that, got it. Yep.
But so how long have you been working for b
h A About three years now. So yeah, I was
the chapter chair and one of the original founding members

(06:39):
of the Southeast chapter and the time came up to
jump on board and said, yeah, I'd love to be
the chater, the chapter coordinator. So the job just came
available on the b h A dot com. Yeah that's
not there, it's but yeah, I mean, you know, so

(07:00):
I we'll toss double field send an email out saying
that they were looking for working for a full time position. Yep,
and I apply just random, but I just became obsessed
with the mission. Um, and I was working in healthcare
and said, you know what, maybe I could make a switch.
That was gonna be my next question. What were you
doing before that? Yeah, so I was in UH. I
was at a like a healthcare consulting group that kind

(07:23):
of did a large population market research, so kind of
like impacts on sounds thrilling. It was actually super interesting,
but it wasn't as cool as what I'm doing. It
actually does sound interesting if you like to study stuff,
you know, I guess it would be interesting, like the
hunting fish. Maybe not. So where did you? Where do

(07:45):
you live now? I live in Chattanooga, Tennessee. Is that
where you're from. No, I'm from like just outside of Atlanta, Georgia,
and I've kind of like a I'm kind of a
mud of the South. So I've lived in West Tennessee,
I've lived in uh kind of North Georgia, Mississippi, So
I'm kind of all over the What took you all
those different places? Just jobs, you know, just moving around

(08:08):
for different different things here and there, and just falling
in love with the South and specifically for what I
would consider the Deep South. Yeah, so what uh? Why
did you have to move to Chattanooga? Job? You needed
to be right there. I got recruited to help start
a healthcare technology coming. Okay, So b h A didn't

(08:30):
move you to Chad No. No, so I got recruited.
So you were just there and you were able to
stay there? Yes, sir, Yeah, I love it. Okay, it's
pretty good hunting and fishing there around Chattanooga. Uh. Yeah,
there's a tremendous amount of public land all around. We
got Cherokee National Forest, Chattahote National Forest and hala um
I live. My backyard basically backs up to a big

(08:52):
state force twenty four thousand acres. What country song has
made Chattanooga like an iconic southern city it's it's ringing him.
I think it's a I think it's an old like
Jazza on the Chattanooga Chi Chi or kind of like okay,
that's yeah, yeah, okay, just just trying to clear this
up in my mind. That's all I could think about,
which is totally irrelevant, but okay, so um so what

(09:17):
kind of what kind of hunting do you do? My
main thing is waterfowl hunting? So um I picked that
up in Mississippi and not basically spend December and January Mississippi. Uh,
Mississippi the Delta so kind of northwest Mississippi. And you
said you you're you you love the Deep South? Yes, okay.

(09:39):
People that meet me that are from like anywhere north
of here, I think that I live in the Deep South,
right I do not, I mean, and I do take
I mean, I do enjoy being from the South, and
like take pride in that I live in the South
because we do, don't we James Um, but we don't

(10:01):
live in the Deep South. This this is this is
uh uplands Southern culture. That would be the technical description
of the Ozarks, the Appalachians, wash Stalls, highlands. Southern culture
is very different than what I think you're talking about
Deep South, because Deep South stuff would be it's like

(10:21):
cultural shift and it would all have to do with
the geographic features of the regions. I mean, like in Arkansas,
there would be a very very distinct divide. I mean
like you could like your your seven year old could
be like, Okay, now we're in the Deep South. You
can tell it. You can tell the moment you drive
down it basically a hill. Ye, your your stomach drops out,

(10:43):
and then you are in the Deep South. Yeah, and
and everything changes. It would be categorized by agriculture, flatlands,
uh lowland country, big rivers, Mississippi Delta and there's a
lot of the big rivers inside of the Mississippi. But
what do you what do you? What draws you? You
said you lie that what is is it? The waterfowl hunting,
It's the waterfowl hunting, is the culture, is the food,

(11:04):
It's the community, It's the slower pace of life. It's
all those things. I mean, being an obsessive water fowler
doesn't hurt to fall in love with that. But um
and I and listen, I love the South I'll live in.
Would would basically be considered Appalachians now or Appalachians, you know.
People get mad about how people say that, but I'm
still undecided, Yeah, on what I'm comfortable with saying, if

(11:27):
saying Appalachian, because when I was over there, I had
a couple of guys that should know tell me to
say Appalachian, but then I they I heard them say it,
and they didn't say it like that. So anyway, it's
it's a point of controversy, it is. But yeah, man,
I do and I would say, like you, you definitely

(11:47):
have the deep South here in Arkansas, right, and that
probably starts somewhere in the delta. I mean, I think
Little Rock would be definitely like a harp harps you know,
starting yeah, yeah, Well, Arkansas would be like if if
Arkansas were a square, it would you know, if you
drew a line from the northeast corner to the southwest
corner of that square, for the most part, everything in

(12:10):
the southeast side of Arkansas would be in the southeast
section of that square would be heavily influenced by Mississippi River,
Delta stuff, agriculture, you know, timber, which would be vastly
different than where we're at right here in the Ozarks.
You know, have you your most exposure would have been

(12:31):
hunting with over in Brinkley with Jonathan And have you
ever spent a time down there? Not really. I mean
I've driven through there a few times, but I haven't
spent a lot of time over there. So um. People
that I've gotten to know from from that side of
the state, though, I just I just love their passion
for where they live. It's just like up here, like

(12:52):
we're all proud to live in the mountains, and they're
all proud to live in the Delta, And I think, uh,
people have pride and where they live, they take care
of it, they fight for it. Um, And I'm I'm
really looking forward to spending more time over there in
this role with b h a that I have, and
just getting to know more about how things work over

(13:16):
there and you know, all that kind of stuff. So
I bought waiters, like actual duck waiters for this year,
So like last year, I was just duck hunting in
my fishing waiters. This year, I've actually got real duck,
real duck waiters. Yeah. That's that's a big move. That's
a big step, man. I know, I know, I'm not
sure if I'm ready for it. Um, Josh, you married,

(13:39):
I am have children or anything? Yes, sir, I got
a I got a year and a half year old daughter,
and then I got a boy on the way. Okay,
yep cool. Yeah. In fact, he mentioned that your dog's
name is Timber, and I'm thinking about naming my son Timber. Okay,
well scratch that in the podcast, so his wife doesn't

(14:01):
hear that my son's name is Bear. And like of
the people that I meet that don't know me, they're like, man,
I had a dog named Bear. I'm like, thanks, man.
It turns out I actually had a dog named Bear
too when I was young. I don't tell people that though.
Did you tell mist that? No? I know that ever,

(14:24):
honestly don't know that ever did, because it was such
a It's a dog that I think I remember through
my father, because I think I was too young to
actually remember the dog. I think there's pictures of the dog,
so I don't really think I have real memories a bear,
the dog, so that doesn't count. That's why it's not

(14:45):
in my like real functional memory. You get a pass.
Yeah uh so I was trying to get a little
background there too. Tell me what you do on like
a day to day basis with bh A. Yeah. My
IB is basically to facilitate, um, anything that any of
my chapter boards are working on. So that could be

(15:07):
kind of punching out an email for them so that
they can send that out to their chapter two working
on various issues at like a state or federal level
with the state legislator. Yeah, uh us legislator. So how
many chapters are there in the Southeast that you kind
of manage? I managed seven? Seven? Where are they at? Georgia, Florida, UM, Tennessee,

(15:33):
North Carolina, South Carolina, Arkansas? And then the Southeast chapter
would be uh, Mississippi, Alabama, and Louisiana. Okay, yep. Cool.
So that's that's a lot of work. Huh. That's good
to be started off as a cush job. I was
able to go hunting and fishing whenever I wanted, and

(15:53):
now I'm sitting in Arkansas instead of my dear Belinde.
We keep picking fights for him to help us out with. Well,
so when I first became familiar with B. H A
and and and James as well. You know, one thing
I think James and I've talked about it sometimes in
the in this part of the world, there seems to

(16:13):
be less public land issues, or there there would seem
to be on the surface anyway, because some of the
stuff out west is really kind of headline dominating in
your face, big moves, you know, like some state wanting
to sell off a couple hundred thousand acres public land
or something, or some senators saying they're gonna do this
or that we don't have as much of that here.

(16:36):
So tell me some of the issues going on it.
I guess in the southeast that would be a good
that would be a good starting point, or even why
you're here today. So um, I'll end on why I'm
here today. But I guess one big thing would be
like in Louisiana, Um, you're seeing kind of a a

(16:58):
access to the water being taken away from the public um,
specifically the marsh and the coast there. And there's all
sorts of tricky reasons as to why that's happening. But
that's you know, a really really massive amount of kind
of what do you mean by that? That like literally
like like you cannot drive the boat. You cannot you

(17:19):
cannot drive a boat on what would in all intensive
purposes at this point be considered the ocean because you
are on somebody's property. Because the water, the water bottom
um most most of the times on the coast, you
would you would like an oil company would own the bottom. Well,

(17:41):
the mineral rights are attached to the surface in Louisiana,
so surface rights, and that is there for a variety
of reasons. But um, the big problem with that is
we're losing a tremendous amount of the marsh and Louisiana's
like you know, the statistic is like a football field
every now any minutes of marshland and so that are

(18:03):
being lost to access. No that that that that marsh
grass is disappearing, So we're talking about an environmental issue.
And then that is now just water. So so what
used to be kind of dry ground at one point
is now water and you theoretically would not be able

(18:23):
to drive a boat over that water because it's still
technically private, right, good like up here, like when they
flooded the land to make Beaver Lake. It's like the
guy who used to own the bottom of the river.
They're coming back and saying, hey, you can't drive your
bass boat over this because I owned the bold looking
at your Onyx maps and seeing the property line in

(18:46):
the water being here, but the water is encroach I
mean it's it's it's completely taken over. I mean that
land has disappeared, and so and then so the property
owners are saying, hey, we own out you know, a
hundred yards, it's out into that body of water. Oh no,
they're like ten miles. Oh wow, to a point where
you could take Yeah, you could take like a you know,

(19:10):
a center console with two on the back of it
and drive as fast as you can for an hour
and be on on private land. So at one point
in memorable history, that would have been dry ground last year.
So what's happening with that? Just sea level rise. It's

(19:30):
a variety of things. So one would argue that sea
level rises is contributing to that other problems you have
subside and said the land itself is actually sinking. Okay,
I was about to make a joke, and I wasn't
gonna do it. Yeah, it's not a joke. And then um,
they dug oil canals are not oil canals, but canals

(19:50):
to get the oil container ships into port more effectively,
and they dug those in a straight line. And so
all these hurricanes you're seeing, well, the arm surge pushes
that water down those canals and it just kills that
marsh grass, floods it, and that marsh grass doesn't have
the time or the ability to grow back. They don't

(20:12):
have the ability to grow back because we took the
Mississippi River and we levied it off. Before we leve
it off, that river, it used to be like you
let up garden hosts loosen. It would just kind of
shift and spray all over the place and take all
that sediment from basically Canada all the way down and
it would disperse it into the Gulf of Mexico there.
And that's what kept that marsh grass alive. We don't

(20:33):
have that anymore because now we've contained the river so
tight it doesn't do its natural flood stage and stuff.
And you know, if you think about like the levying
of the Mississippi River, it seems like, oh, well that's happened,
that's been going on for forever. But it's been going
on for maybe a hundred years, which when you think
about geologic time, not too long. I mean that's like

(20:56):
a a milliseconds of time, and so you think about
the equal I never I was not aware of these issues.
So what's b h A dealing with stuff like that?
We are trying to find a solution that fits all
the parties, like so that you can still go fishing
up on the bank. Yeah yeah, I mean I mean,
like drive a boat yet so you can go out

(21:17):
there and duck hunts, so you can fish, and I
mean there's all sorts of people that have interests. But
you know, we don't want people to lose their rights
to their minerals. Obviously it's a big oil producing part
of the country and other things as well. Um, but
it's uh, you know, it's incredibly controversial in the state,
and we're just trying to help. We're trying to play

(21:38):
a facilitator role to bring all those different parties together
to find a solution that works and so that the
common guy can still take a sun fishing there you go.
So what other what other issues would there be? And
that's a that's a great example of that I would
not have really been aware of. That shows the kind
of stuff that you guys are working in. Yeah. Mean,

(22:00):
we we're doing things in Florida. Um. We've commented on
trying to get uh uh the hunting up black bear
in Florida, you know back um so our chapter down
there's kind of slowly poking around on that and beginning
to build the right relationships and hopefully that's something we'll

(22:21):
see here in the near term future. Um uh. And
then most recently here I'm in Arkansas working on this
pine tree research station issue, and uh it's a been
a very exciting project for us, and it's really helped
out the Arkansas chapter here. Yeah. So we did a
whole podcast James and I did on that. But give

(22:43):
me like a like a twenty five second uh synopsis
for someone who hadn't heard about that. At the University
of Arkansas owns eight hundred fifty acres over in eastern Arkansas.
It's a research station they bought from the Forest Service
back in the sixties. It's uh been managed. It's supposed
to remain open for public use. Um. The land is

(23:05):
supposed to be supposed to remain used for the public.
They've allowed hunting and fishing on that for a long time,
like seventy years. It's not not seventy years, but along
quite a long time. And um, they have a contract
in place to sell that land to a private entity

(23:27):
some of it that would then that portion would cease
to be in public use, which is a violation of
the deed, the original deed. Ye and so um, I
mean what we're working on on that is trying to
find a solution that keeps that land public. Like we've
talked about, if the university needs to sell that land

(23:50):
to fund other priorities, let's find another way to make
that happen that keeps that land public. It was it
was purchased by the federal government during the depression in
order to conserve the land to rehabilitate farmland that had
been degraded, just because it was marginal to start off with.

(24:13):
And it's now great wildlife habitat and we want to
see it stay that way and available to the public
as it has been public land now for close to
ninety years, you know, eighty five years it's been land,
so we wanted to stay there. So you guys are

(24:34):
advocating for a solution can not sell that land or
someone buy it that stays public, that it stays public. Yeah,
so that's what puts me in the seat today. But
so you're in Arkansas dealing with some of that stuff. Yep, good,
excited to be here? Good? Well great? Anybody that's been

(24:59):
paying much atten into b h A. It blew my mind.
When I first started hearing about b h A, I
went and joined the organization, got involved with them, and
then all of a sudden, I started getting private messages
from a few people saying, hey, don't you know that
b h A is? And I mean, I'm just gonna

(25:20):
say it because it's on the internet, so we might
as well say it because we're gonna talk about why.
I mean, to me, it's just a ridiculous kind of
conspiracy theory. And I've got some data, because I promise
you I have scrutinized this organization and I have tried
to find somebody that could actually tell me why these

(25:41):
terrible things were true. But I mean, people saying that
b h A was what was it? A green decoy?
So a green decoy for someone who wouldn't understand the analogy.
A green decoy would be a left wing environmental group
that would that would cloak itself as a hunter a
sportsman lad group that would try to like woo all

(26:03):
these sportsmen and come in a's like the hunter kid,
and then turn the table at some point or in
the back room begin to navigate legislation and stuff in
the favor of anti hunting sentiment. I mean, it's not
like we're trying to hide that people say that people

(26:23):
do and it's in in UM. Do you guys have
any ideas on where or why some of this would
have come up? Well, I mean we've made enemies, We've
we've made people mad and and and those some of
those folks have a vested interest to um creating a

(26:44):
narrative to to weaken us. And that you know, there's
public relation groups that have you know, been commissioned to
write those articles about us and create that narrative. UM.
And that's you know, I think somewhat pub like pretty
public knowledge to like the b h A like hardcore dudes.
So we know that some of that has happened, that

(27:07):
actually took place, uh maybe like five years ago before
I came onto b h A. That that whole kind
of narrative creation thing. But we've been dealing with it
ever since. It's one of those things that kind of
lives on the internet. In fact, when I when I
told my dad I was moving my career to b
h A, he like googled and found that. He was like, well,
I think they're a bunch of liberal, anti anti hunting,

(27:28):
you know. And I was like, no, no, no, I
don't think so, man. I mean, yeah, you just hang
out with some of these guys. I mean to hang
out with the guys that work at b h A.
And I mean, you know, to Stupplefield, I think kills
a lot of stuff, you know, And and one of
our main initiatives and our three program, which is we
want to create more hunters. Yeah, see that being too

(27:52):
you know, anti hunting friendly. Yeah. Well, I mean I
went to I went to the b h A round
off you woo three years ago. And I mean if
you could go to that rendezvous and say that this
was an anti hunting group, you you, I don't know,
you'd have to you have to have a pretty strong
warp on what you're seeing. Um. I think b h

(28:15):
A has done things different. I mean, like, for instance,
at that b h and it's a great thing to
bring up. Obviously, this is all public knowledge. They had
Van speaking there. Man, When I saw the founder of Patagonia,
a multibillion dollar, massive global player in the outdoor industry,

(28:38):
setting in front of fift hundred hunters saying that he
was on our side, I was like, this is good.
This is the guy you want on your team. I
came back from that rendezvous after I made a video
about it, and I had people email me and say, Clay,

(28:58):
you are the representative of bear hunters across this country.
I cannot believe that you would put your stamp of
approval on Van Sinnard. He said, do you not know?
I mean this is almost word for word. I mean,
it's like Brandon in my mind what this guy said.
He said, do you not know that Ivan Shbardard is

(29:20):
UH is not for delisting yellstone grizzlies. It doesn't surprise
me that doesn't want I mean, he is not. He
is not totally on our page. Right, We're not totally
on his page. But we've b h A has a good,
a good way of coming together to work with people

(29:42):
that we do have some common ground with, and that
spooks people that are of a mindset of polarization like
them and us and and I and I could be
in that camp in certain places. I'm not saying that.
I mean there's some places you you can't compromise us.
Like so, I'm not saying that we need to make

(30:04):
friends with you know, somebody that's gonna hurt us. But
that's that. This guy just was like, Clay, You're you're
betraying predator hunting by saying that Ivan Schinnard is a
friend of ours. And I just fundamentally disagree with that. Yeah. No, listen,
I did too. And I know a few of the
folks inside of Patagonia. I've done some stuff with them.

(30:26):
The main guy for all the retail stores in the East.
He is then next moose hunting god in Maine. I mean,
so like inside of Patagonia, there's disagreements, right, but you
know we can we can um, we can agree on
disagree if we can advance you know, public land public

(30:48):
land hunting, like I'm I'm willing to take that risk. Yeah,
I mean, that's that's a big thing. Um I heard. Uh. So,
there was a there was a a podcast, a well
known podcast, and the host had a guy on that
was like kind of a b h A guy. They
had a lot of background in y b h A

(31:10):
was like this anti hunting group. When I heard that
this was happening, I went to that podcast and was like, great,
here we go. Now I'm gonna be able to call
James and say I told you, James, get me out
of here. And I listen to that podcast and I
did not. I mean everything that was said was speculative.

(31:31):
I mean there was nothing. I was shocked that there
was nothing of in my opinion, of deep substance. And
there's all this stuff about funding. I mean, I I
could nerd out about it all. People can do their
own research. But you know, there's there's this thing that
you know they get money from the Wilberforce Foundation. Well,
i'll tell you what. You can go look up Wilberforce

(31:52):
Foundation and you'll find that they give money to a
whole bunch of people. They give money to a bunch
of people that we probably don't agree with at all,
but they also give a bunch of money to people
that we do agree with. And b h A is
not entirely funded by the Wilberforce Foundation. And I mean
pretty much that was the main thing. As they were saying,
follow the money. These guys are getting money from anti

(32:15):
hunting groups, and you go and look, you can there's
you can do research and find out all the money
that Wilberforce dishes out. There's a bunch of other hunting
conservation groups that get money from them. If they called
me tomorrow and said, Clay, we want to give Bare
Hunting magazine some money, uh, I would listen to them.

(32:37):
I mean, you know what I mean. It's like, well,
you ask them what like what kind of strings are
attached to it, and and then you go from there.
I mean, I just this whole the polarization thing is
what just blows me away. It's like we all gotta
lock arms and march together, all agreeing on every single thing.

(33:02):
And that's not the way the world works. I mean, Clay,
that the twelve Disciples could not all agree on everything.
I mean, we we need diversity of opinions, we need
diversity of funding, we need diversity of goals. This is
what makes us America. Um. I would really I'm just

(33:25):
kind of curious. I would like to hear somebody say
what their motivations are for trying to tear b h
A down right. Oh yeah, there's motivations for sure. I
don't want to like speculate on that, but the speculations
aren't hard to make. Um. And I'm a huge fan
of that podcast and I run all that dudes gear
um so like I uh, like I said earlier, like

(33:48):
if we're an anti hunting organization, we're doing it wrong. Hey,
well he and he's my friend to Yeah, he he
had land and Ryan on Ryan uh Or who had
lant Yeah right, busy on that from Kimber And he
used to be our chair. He's no no longer the
chair of our North American board. But I appreciated that

(34:10):
he did that because because he had a podcast about
you know, all the you know, all the alternative ideas
about b h A, and then he had these guys on.
He did a great job. Yeah, so I commend him
for that. Um. To me, this is really important because
you know, like somebody isn't familiar to the b h

(34:31):
A and they hear this, it all sounds great, and
then the first time they get a whiff of something,
it kind of spooks him. That's the way it's happened
with some of my friends and uh and that's what
would have happened with me if I hadn't doug a
little bit deeper. And I want to give a Okay,
here's the other thing that specifically people have talked to
me about because of my my background in history, is

(34:54):
people have said their anti predator hunting. Okay, that's what
they've said to me. B h A is anti predator hunting.
Well many things. I have seen multiple places where b
h A has advocated for bear hunting. I mean you
just brought it up a minute ago. The chapter in Florida.
They were the guys that contacted me and got me

(35:17):
on a podcast down in Florida. B h A guys
hooked me up with some legitimate pod Florida Wide Fishing
Hunting podcast, got me on that b h A is. Uh. Now,
I know there's lots of great groups sci Sportsman's Alliance
that are working on this New Jersey thing too. Since
I'm not saying that b h is the only one word,

(35:39):
but b h A has a They wrote an article,
had a petition, uh, you know, standing against this governor
that has said he's gonna shut down bear hunting in
New Jersey, going against science, going against all the data
going against all the biologists and uh you know b
h A standing there saying, hey, we're fighting for a
bear hunt. Um, and uh you know I had people.

(36:03):
Uh well, let let me get to my personal story.
So during the time when I was still and I'm
just gonna be real open here because I got nothing
to nothing to hide about it. When I was I
wasn't on the fence at all about b h A.
But I met Hal Herring Yah, and uh, I honestly
going to meet how. I went to spend a couple

(36:25):
of days with him, and I knew very little about him.
I just knew he worked for b h A and
did their podcast. It was kind of like a pretty
big voice for b h A. I didn't go over
there to be on his podcast like that. That was
not I mean, that wasn't the only reason that I went. Um.
But when I when I went there, I mean, I'm

(36:47):
I run. I don't know if you ever heard of it,
but I published a magazine called Bare Hunting Magazine. I've
heard of it, and and I so I am pro
predator hunting, pro mountain lion hunting, you know, all within
the bounds of science and such. And uh, Hal Harry
told me. He said that he talked to some of
the head leaders at b h A and told him

(37:07):
he was going to be in camp with me, and
they said, get Clay on the podcast. Yeah, that's what
he told me. What I mean, but it was to
get you on the podcast and get you in a
gotcha moment, right. They were trying to trap you, trying
to decoy decoy you in Yeah. Yeah, So all I
was saying, if they're an anti hunting, anti predator group,

(37:28):
they're doing a bad job because they they but okay,
here's here's the thing, though, they're doing a bad job
with that because they're they're they're doing so much I think,
I mean, pro all these things we're talking about. But
here's the here's the thing is that when I made
a post the other day about b h A in
the New Jersey petition, there was a guy on there

(37:52):
and you said something to him, James that said, well,
I wonder why the National b h A isn't saying
something up and he he was clearly saying that, you know,
there was some there was some reason why the National
wasn't getting on and it was And I got on
there and said, man, all these different groups have different lanes.

(38:15):
I said, you know, b h A primarily does access
land access. That's the main thing b h A is not.
We're also small, right, so it's hard for us to
get outside of that lane and be effective. And and
when we do get out of side of our lane,
that can bog us down to detract from our main mission. Right.

(38:36):
So so it's just it's just it's business. It's it's
staying on mission and no go ahead. I think I
think you're you're on the right path. And and uh,
at the end of the day too, that one of
the reasons why you know, you might not see something
out of the North American Organization as a whole is

(38:59):
we our job is to back our chapters, right, so
we back the work that our chapters are doing. We're
a we're a lad from the ground up that we're
not a top down organization. Our guys going pick the
fights or girls and whenever they got something that they
want to engage in on something like you know, in

(39:21):
in in Florida or New Jersey, which I'm not terribly
familiar with, I apologize, but you know, our job, my
job at that point is all right, let's make this happen,
let's put in the work, let's organized, and you guys
now have all of our resources. So and James, you
made a great point. What was that? Yeah? My point
is that as a chapter leader, that's amazingly empowering to

(39:46):
me to know that I'm here on the ground in
this state and our members here in this state, if
they have an issue that's important to them, it's important
in to our national organization. It's it's empowering in so

(40:07):
many ways, UM, as chapter leaders to be able to
pick those fights and not have it dictated to us,
UM that we need to get on board with this
or get on board with that. Are there national issues
that we all work together on, Yes, Great American Outdoors Act,
Land and Water Conservation Fund, these big national things yes.

(40:30):
Well and and and the point that you made to
me that was I thought was so strong into this
guy that made that comment was that local issues are
handled locally, national issues are handled nationally. So I mean
this was a statewide issue in New Jersey. And so
I mean like structurally the organization is not designed for

(40:52):
b H A national I mean just the way it's
just lined up. It's lined up so that the b
h A. New Jersey is fighting that fight, and obviously
that's been sent out nationally and and there's been support
coming in nationally from that. We'll do our best to
promote it, you know, that's that's our job. And so
it wasn't a conspiracy to actually make bear hunting go

(41:14):
away in New Jersey? Is that what you're telling me?
That was? That was my comment to the guy that
made the question. I said, it sounds to me like
you're upset at b h A for taking a stance,
public stance against ending the bear hunt. Saying we're pro
bear hunting. Sounds to me like you're mad at them

(41:35):
for that, and thinking that mad at the method rather
than I mean, it didn't make sense anyway. I realized
I am going on and on about this, and that's
not y'all didn't come here to talk about this. But
I think it's a major issue. I mean, I think
it's a fly in the ointment and and man, I'm
not sitting here saying that. I mean, I am equally

(41:57):
is I mean, I love Sportsman's Allion, I love s C.
I sure like there's a ton of groups that I'm
passionate about that if I had a good connection to
would probably be sitting here too, you know. Um So,
I mean it's not like you have to be like,
if you're a b h A guy, then that's all
you are. That's what people feel like, That's what I

(42:19):
feel like. People. If you identify yourself at all with
an organization, then then that's like, well, we can't get
our identities so wrapped up in each one of these
little groups. You know, people get so wrapped up in
whatever the label is that they want to put on themselves.
And I love b h A. I worked hard for

(42:40):
b h A. I love the diversity of opinions and
people and things that we can do that are focused.
I mean it's diverse, but it's focused in a specific lane.
And we were literally today amongst my board members talking
about how blessed we feel to have found each other

(43:03):
to work together with. I'm sure there's other organizations that
have those exact same things, but we weren't talking about,
you know, the how we were gonna take down hunting
and fishing. We were talking about we found people who
like to hunt fish, the means or the places, the

(43:27):
ideals that we all hold common, and we were so
happy to find a place where we could do that work.
You know, that's what we like to do. Man, if
you like to if your deal is cold water fishing
for wild and native trout, trout, unlimited, it, whatever it is.

(43:50):
But just because you're a member of that one group,
you don't have to throw rocks at all the other
ones either. And that's what that's I'm so glad that
I think it's just different amongst the people that I
work with in b h A. And and you know,
we can kind of get focused on these loud kind

(44:12):
of trolls, you know that are talking smack, but they're
they're a small percentage, right, I think most people out there. Yeah,
it's it's unfortunate that that this is like such a
in my in my mind anyway, it's a it's a
big thing because I just hear it and I'm sensitive
to it. But it's a big thing in the South, man.
I mean, we we've we've been dealing with it since

(44:33):
day one. Okay, here's here's the other thing I want
to like publicly acknowledge is that the other reason that
people think, or I could think that b h A
is some you know, you know, left wing anti hunting
group is b h a is and and I'm going
to say the E word. You'll know what the E

(44:56):
word is, environmental. Yeah, I mean, and that's what's bizarre
about the modern divides inside of politics that you know,
if you're a hunter and fisherman, you know, you're you're
just the way that the politics line up to be
on this side of the aisle means that you are

(45:18):
not an environmentalist, you know. And so it's like, but
we are hunters, and I mean like we we are
passion is wild places, going to those wild places and
enjoy in those wild places. Like we actually ought to
be the biggest advocates for wild places, which if we
could just call it that, advocates for wild places and

(45:39):
not environmentalists. You know, the marketing, the stigma that you know.
And obviously, so some people are threatened by that. They're like,
this is this is a radical environmental group that's wanting
to shut down the whole place. I mean, and that's
not true. I mean, I mean there be from what
I've seen from national decisions that have been made, there

(45:59):
are some places where things should be shut down, like
the pebble mine up in the last Man shut it down.
I'm pretty sure Trump said this, Well, I don't want
to get into that Donald Donald Trump Jr. Was against
the pebble mind. I know that. Uh, but there's other
places where b. H. A Would absolutely be Like I mean,

(46:21):
talking to Hal Herring, I mean he's one of the
most functional, like real guys who ever talked to. He
has his whole backgrounds in forestry. Yeah, and I mean
he's like, man, we gotta cut this timber. I mean, like,
you know, land use practices that are sustainable, that are
good for wildlife, that are good for the economy too.
So it's not just this blanket, you know, we're we're

(46:43):
the I think, if anything, Clay, it's a more holistic
approach that we have, Like we're not against resource extraction,
we're not against private land even we're not against burning
prescribe fire. I mean we're pro prescribe fire and parts
of the country and against prescribed fire and other parts
of the country, purely based on you know, the forest

(47:04):
management plans of science there that support it. And you know,
wherever wherever the science points us is where we want
to go. We want because that's what's going to be
the best for the wildlife in the habitat that's so
it's a real easy narrative for someone to just get
turned off of, like just like yep, b h A
is a left wing, radical environmental group, and it's just

(47:26):
I have looked and looked and looked, and I just
haven't seen that. Well. I wouldn't be working there if
it was that, I can promise you that well. And
I wouldn't have you guys here if it was. I
mean really, I I've scrutinized over this a lot. Uh
And you know, b h A is is one of
the fastest growing UH sports ports groups in the country.
I mean, it's become an influential group and uh. And

(47:50):
what I like about b h A is the type
of people that are being recruited or just the type
of people that I see that are b h A
guys are are they're they're they're motivated, They're they're guys
that are a lot of them are even new hunters.
A lot of them are veteran hunters, I mean, but
but some new hunters and uh, I don't know, it's

(48:11):
just an energetic, motivated, good group. And and there's there.
You know, all these big groups have great constituencies, you know,
absolutely national Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountain. I mean, all
these guys have great groups. But yeah, and and you know,
just kind of touch I have a little bit of notes,
but I mean, yeah, we got forty thousand plus members

(48:34):
of that percent are independents, are Republicans, and six percent
are libertarians. Okay, we're let's break that down again. I
was listening for the uh so independent Republican, six percent
libertarian and uh I forgot to write the Democrat number. Whoops. Um,

(48:59):
But it's like the Democrat number was like like to so,
I mean, that's one of the cool things about our
membership is like, man, he forgot thet Well, that would
be a pro I would be on the side that.
Uh you just you just watched the whole our whole
conversation down the tubes by that. But it's it's that

(49:21):
is to me, like kind of the cool thing about
our makeup is like we are super super diverse in
our political makeup, and and we skew pretty young, you know,
like a massive percent we're forty and younger, which is
in the conservation world very rare. You know, I'm an
old guy for b h A at six starting to

(49:43):
feel my age you know. Yeah, so mm hmm. I
think we could kind of wrap this part of it
up just by describing our membership a little bit more.
It's people who are motivated to learn more about hunting
to share that it. Um. There's a lot of camaraderie
that comes with that. Yeah. I mean we take our

(50:04):
Knox for you know. Another thing that people say is,
you know, all they want to do is get together
and drink beer and slap each other on the back.
And I can tell you that, Um, there is definitely
occasion for that. But I have seen a lot of
just what I would what I would term uh fraternity

(50:25):
with a with a lower case F. Just camaraderie and
fellowship um, sharing of success and however you choose to
define what that success is. UM, it's it's not gonna
be the group for everybody, but it is. It is
a a group of people who are interested in action,

(50:48):
and we make it possible for people to operate fairly
independently but with support in their local area. So if
you live in Paris, Arkansas, and you want to do
a clean up in your area and and you're a
b h A member, man, we will help you out

(51:11):
with that. Like We will make connections for you, will
help you promote it. Um. If you need help with
an access issue in your area, we will help you
out with that. And that I think is is where
that's why I'm a part of it. It's because it's
people of action. Not to say that other groups aren't

(51:33):
also action oriented, but I think we we make that
accessible for for people who otherwise don't have access to
And I mean we're very much an entrepreneurial kind of organization.
That's a cool thing about it. It's not just going
to a banquet, you know, sign it up and getting
a bunch of stuff at the auction, which I love
to do, you know, but um, it is you know,

(51:56):
signing up for a clean up. I mean, month of
September we put four thousand bags of trash out of
public land, um, just through people going out and organizing
people to go out and encouraging them to go out
to just pick up trash, whether it was in an
organized thing or by themselves. Four thousand bags, man, and

(52:17):
just like kind of like a little fun thing that
we did for a month. That's real work. Um. I mean,
all these different public access battles and all the different
states were in those things don't happen by themselves, and
it's almost all organized and driven by membership on the ground.

(52:37):
So if you want to like roll up your sleeves
and get dirty and fight for something, this is a
really fun organization to do it with. Um, and you're
gonna learn a lot about how to kind of fight
in those arenas, which I mean, I think James could
tell you all about. But it's it's a good time. Man.
We don't just drink beer, though we do drink a

(52:58):
lot of beer a lot. It happens. But but I've
also seen it be like, Okay, I guess we gotta
get the work done. You know, we we got to
go get this done. We're gonna hit it hard and
and um yeah, and just the sharing of information to
I mean, learning how to hunt, learning how to fish, um,

(53:18):
sharing of you. Sometimes it's sharing of spots. Sometimes it's
sharing of camp, Like come to my camp with me
and I'll help you learn how to do something, and
do not ask me for a spot, will not give
it to You'll be a public land knucklehead. No, no, no,

(53:38):
I know you gotta stay away from that. Somebody recorded
a podcast about that. And then and then it turned
into a book. Yeah, that's right, that's right. Yeah, now
that's that's a no b h Ay. They've got a
knack for organizing people to do work. Man. They kind
of like made it cool to go out and pick

(54:00):
up trash on on on w May's and on public
land and and obviously they're doing you're just doing so
much more than that. But yeah, that's great, that's great. Um, Josh,
you a white tail hunter A little bit. I wouldn't.
I wouldn't consider myself ah expert white tail hunter, but

(54:23):
I spent a lot of time in tree stands. Yeah. Yeah. Waterfowl.
Waterfowl is, yeah, something that I feel like. I called
myself a waterfowl hunter in the sense that I feel
like I confident when I go out that I know
what I'm doing to some extent, right, as much as
you can in hunting, right, nothing's ever easy, But that

(54:44):
is my passions. Duck, top end duck for you, I mean,
I'm a my favorite's probably teal. I don't early season
tel hunt as much as in the in the deeper South.
It's you know, you're just fighting off snakes and everything
and hunting. It's kind of sporadic. I'll see that duck

(55:05):
over there on the wall. Yeah, oh yeah, that's beautiful.
I'm big water feller. That's the only, the only Mallard
ducket I've ever killed. That's a beautiful representation of one
I mounted, the only Mallard duck I've ever killed, Clay,
I'm picking up the only duck I've ever killed in
my life. I had it mounted and we're picking it

(55:27):
up tomorrow. Yeah. Mine. You know what kind of duck
was that? Wood duck, which I know a lot of
people will be like, oh, wood duck whatever. It was
the first duck probably the most beautiful. Yeah, they really are. Yeah, man,
But I love uh, I love shooting into teal. I
mean this might be controversial, but my favorite thing to
do in the world to shoot ducks. I mean yeah,

(55:49):
And um, I feel like that's almost you're not supposed
to say that anymore some circles, but I don't. That's
I mean, really, what what's what makes are you? Are
you single handedly like collapsing the population? Are you doing
it illegally? You're following the rules, the rules, But I
mean I just love it, and um, but teal are

(56:09):
so much fun to shooting into and they just they
taste great. They're fast, They're fast, super fast, much faster
as a Teal than a Mallard. I don't want three times,
Is it really three times? I don't think that's actually true.
Just the way they come in, man, they're so close
to you when they come in right there a lot
there that buzz over you, and they're like they weren't there,
then they're there, and then they're gone. Mallard's kind of

(56:31):
lumber in their big ducks. They take their time getting
down teel like they're in and out, you know, and
they're just hauling m I've never tell hunted we have
to change that. Well, I'd like to try it sometime.
There you go, James, you kill the buck. Just the
other day I did with my bare Having a great year,
having a fantastic year. I feel amazingly blessed this year.

(56:54):
The freezer is full. That's awesome. Man. Yeah, I hadn't
really heard much of the story. I mean, well, I
was hunting last Saturday. Um, I just got out in
the stand before daybreak, had the usual series of mishaps
on my way in, got there late. Hall rope was
tangled up and I couldn't get my bow up. Something

(57:16):
was underneath my stand. You know, I couldn't see it.
It was still dark. Um. But I finally got settled,
and you know, I saw a dough and a fawn
moving across. This was in Missouri. It was on private
land in Missouri, my in law's place up there. So
it was bow season up there. And um, you know,

(57:38):
saw a dough and a fawn go across the field.
And and I was kind of thinking, I mean, I
was wanting meat, so I thought if they came my way,
And then I saw the buck behind him, and I lot, okay,
this could happen. And the dough and the fawn kind
of circled back behind me, and and and the buck
was right on him. I mean I saw, but the

(58:00):
buck was on them. I made a I made the
shot that I I made a bad shot. Um hit
it far back. I knew immediately I'd hit it far back. Um.
He trotted off about twenty yards, gave me a chance
to look at him through my binos, and he was

(58:23):
hunched up. Um. I knew I hit him in the guts.
And I was just hoping. And so I was very
confident that it was a mortal wound. I had no
idea how long it was gonna take. I contacted a
blood tracker immediately um and got some coaching on what
to do. I left it for eight hours. He got there,

(58:47):
we tracked it, UM found it, jumped it still alive,
but but in bad shape. And and I eventually, you know,
he had to back out with the dog, and I
had to go back in with the bow, and eventually
was able to finish it off. And it was, Oh
my gosh, Clay, it was a healthy deer. It was
big it it. I put over fifty pounds of meat away,

(59:12):
and the amount of fat that I cut off of
that thing, oh so much fat. I mean, as dry
as it has been around here. I was not expecting that.
But he was healthy, very healthy deer. So is that
your first bow kill buck? Yep? Nice, very nice, thank you. Yeah,
it looked like a big body, dear. It was. Yeah,

(59:34):
it was a good sized here. It's been dry this year.
It's all up up here, up here, right in this area.
You get just a little bit south and east of here,
and they've had way more rain than we have. Pastures
are burnt up up here. My in laws are talking
about having to buy hay and worrying about what kind
of water now here. The last this week it's been wet,

(59:55):
but before that, try, yeah, it's been in northwest Arkansas.
I can speak to the horn growth of these deer
is exceptional compared to the last ten years. That's my observation,
you know, from the deer that I'm seeing and even
hearing people talk about, Yeah, we had incredible horn growth,

(01:00:17):
and that almost always is indicative of a good growing season,
which I don't know that down here we've been as dry.
But I think I'm an hour well not quite an hour,
almost an hour south of you, though now you guys
have had more rain down here than the things we have.
I think we have. But the deer, the deer healthy.

(01:00:39):
Ye're really healthy. You're saying just a minute ago that
they're starting to move around. I'm starting to yeah. I've
I've hunted. I've hunted quite a bit in the last
nine ten days. And just two days ago I saw
I saw my first buck, big buck chasing the do't
now the little deer will mess around with those early

(01:01:00):
and I mean heck even in early October. But I
mean a big mature buck that had no business being
on his feet unless that dough was serious. And yeah,
so two days ago I saw a bucket three thirty
in the afternoon with a dough um. And then yesterday,
uh didn't didn't get to hunt, but was driving right

(01:01:22):
through a place that I can hunt, and saw one
of my target deer with a dough in a field
you know, in pour and rain. I mean it was
like a downpour and there he is standing in the
field with his dough and they ran off and he
lowered his head and just took after which, man, it's
it's happening. Talked to another real good uh well I

(01:01:42):
guy that's been on a podcast, Heat Martin. He told
me that what he's seeing is more chasing and red
activity for this time of year than than he's seen
in a while. That's that's what I was telling you.
I feel like it's just a little bit early to
see the kind of chasing is. I had another I
had a better deer, a better buck under my stand

(01:02:05):
after I shot the one and I shot, Oh really,
you had a bigger deer come through, not huge, but
bigger than the one that I shot, and he was chasing,
and I watched him chase that dough all over the field.
Oh wow, so that was some legit activity. Yeah. So
are you transitioning now to all day sits or I

(01:02:26):
rarely really get the opportunity to sit all day just
because I almost my work is pretty flexible, but I
always have something I've got to do. So like tomorrow,
if something doesn't come up, I'm gonna sit all day Tomorrow,
um and uh. And then Saturday, we got some family stuff,

(01:02:46):
but I'm gonna hut morning and evening, you know, in
the middle of the day, do some family stuff. But yeah,
it's time to sit all day if you're gonna sit.
This weekend is youth season in Missouri, youth full season,
and this October thirty one, November first time frame is

(01:03:07):
has been a really good time. Yeah. Yeah, Zack's got
some stuff going on during the day on Saturday, but
as soon as he gets out of that, you know,
I have on my list of things basically get everything
ready to take off since he gets home and and uh,
yeah we'll hunt Saturday night and he'll probably hunt all
day Sunday. So good good well, Um, Josh, is there

(01:03:33):
anything else that we've you know, we kind of just
hit you know, some kind of random things inside of
b H. Anything you'd like to say, or man, this
was awesome. This is fun. I enjoyed. It's a great
way to end the day. Great. Yeah, thank you for
allowing us to come by. Yeah, man, James Man, I'm good.

(01:03:53):
They're good, thank you. Okay, right on, Well keep the
wild place as wild because that's where it bears. Absolutely,
that's what pH as trying to dude, the wild, bless wild.
They can't steal that tagline.