May 31, 2023 • 31 mins
A first for Beauty Translated, Carmen sits down and has a conversation with the cis straight male comedian Mickey Farrow, in this chat the two unpack the differences between what it means to be trans attracted and what it means to be a "chaser". They also discuss how his trans attraction becomes a subject in his stand-up comedy routine.
For more from Carmen Laurent and Beauty Translated visit @beautytranslatedpod & @thecarmenlaurent
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
My attraction is only what I and who I feel
attracted to, and that's not something that I'm like walling
off in my head. It's just what is natural, and
so I'm not concerned with anything else put my attraction.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello listeners, and welcome to another episode of Beauty Translated.
This week, I'm really excited to discuss our main topic,
trans attraction from the cis male perspective. Today's guest is
yet another person I met through the horrible photo sharing
app called Instagram. Mickey Farrow is a stand up comedian
from New York who isn't afraid to joke about his
(00:40):
trans attraction, and most impressively, he does it all without
further stigmatizing straight trans women. Please enjoy my conversation with
the hilarious Mickey Farrow. Today we have our very first
sis straight guest on Beauty Translated, and I'm very excited
(01:01):
to have him on the podcast. His name is Mickey
Farroh and he's a comedian based out of New York
and also la right.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, little cross country situation by coastal, by coastal, but
don't consider myself by anything else but by coastal for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I love that well Welcome to the pod, Mickey. How
are you doing today.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I'm so happy to be here. I'm great. I mean,
I escaped New York. I'm here in LA. Through this
little window closet, I could see some mountains. What's there
to complain about?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, but La is gorgeous right now. But Mickey, I
want to start out by talking about how I came
to know you. On Instagram. You posted a reel I
guess we're calling it to your Instagram of one of
your one of your jokes that I just was so
delighted by, and I saw all of my other trans
(01:54):
women friends sharing it. Do care to tell a little
bit about what that viral joke was? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Sure, So. Comedy is my favorite thing to do in
the world. New York has the most vibrant comedy scene
in the world. It's I love comedy because it's such
a uniquely American form of art and expression, and it
really feels like one of the only outlets that we
have now. To be truthful, But yeah, the joke I
posted it was very simple. It was only two sentences,
(02:24):
and the joke was I've been dating a lot of
trans women lately. Any other straight guys dating trans women
or y'all just watching.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
The clips and the crowd goes wild.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It was a good one, and it was a good
set that night. But writing jokes is really hard, and
writing good pointed jokes that really deliver what you want
to say concisely is really really hard. So I was
happy that not only it worked in the club and
people laughed, but that it resonated with the trans community
(02:54):
and and I think it in essence kind of says
where we are today.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely with I mean, we're acknowledging the fact
that you and I both know that all across the nation,
transport is like the number one category in so many places,
and at the same time, anti trans legislation is also
really really high, and I think that that has a
lot to do with the main topic that we're going
to talk about today once we get into it, which
(03:23):
is going to be stigmatized trans attraction. But yeah, it's
kind of like funny how how it was very of
the time, very pointed, and I just thought it was
great and a lot of trans women loved it because
there's nothing more attractive to us than a guy who's
just openly willing and able to admit that he's into
(03:44):
transwomen and dates trans women.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, and I you know, I appreciate that, but it's
just me being honest, and it was, you know, the
whole thing has been a journey. I think you can
appreciate that. And I certainly have been through my own
journey and getting to you know, where I am, and
you know, I'm from the suburbs, like it was very
there was not There was no gender studies where I
(04:10):
grew up. So having any sort of nuanced understanding of
your own sexuality is not a clear cut thing, and
I think it's the truth for a lot of straight
CIS men in this country who you know may have,
you know, a difficult time trying to process their own
sexuality or or their own feelings and they don't have
any any background or knowledge to be able to even.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Do it right or like a healthy way to talk
about it right.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, Well back up for me. I want to know,
like when you posted that, because like when you posted
that video that kind of went viral and everybody was
sharing it, you first had like I mean, like eight
hundred something followers. I want to say you gained like
five hundred followers after posting that joke. What was the
kind of like feedback and like the response you got
(05:00):
from that video, was it mostly like transwim being like, yes,
this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, I think now it's like a thousand, which is crazy.
And I got yeah, I got so many really sweet
messages saying, you know, thanks for just being honest and
not being afraid to you know, speak about your truth.
And I had posted some jokes before. I think that
was obviously the most pointed one and the best one.
I think it's been a process to even write good
(05:26):
jokes about this topic in a way that's achieve what
I you know, I think I'm trying to do with
my comedy. I think a lot of the people who
maybe are friends or I've known for a long time
because they had seen me post jokes about this before
all of that stigma and there was a lot of
it and a lot of things that have been said
(05:48):
that you know, it isn't there anymore, which is great
because it's you know, I'm very open about it. I
talk about it in my everyday life.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Comedy is like a funhouse mirror forces society. It reflects
real life back but it looks goofy. I'm not surprised
to hear that Mickey became more comfortable with his own
trans attraction while also becoming more comfortable joking about the topic.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
The way I became comfortable with my own sexuality is
through talking to my friend and him opening up my
mind and realizing that I'm not weird or whatever, and
so I considered that part of my sort of journey.
So thankfully, it was a lot of really nice messages
and I was really happy about that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And also, you mentioned this wasn't the first time you
had written jokes about this, but you've just ca and
I've looked at all your jokes like they've consistently been
like really well written, positive jokes that are not further
stigmatizing trans women but actually kind of destigmatizing the experience
(06:50):
we have as trans women. What was that joke writing process?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Like, you know, I think it's gotten better, and I
think this has kind of been, you know, the culmination
of working. I mean, I've written so many jokes and
I think i've really it's they've gotten better and better.
But you know, I want to acknowledge that even if
earlier jokes that I had were trying to be pointed
the right way I think elevating to a place, and
(07:16):
I think it's something that you see with a lot
of comedians, you know, comedians oftentimes, especially SIS male comedians,
when they talk about trans women, the punchline is the dick.
There's a great trans comedian named Jay McBride who I love.
She's at the Comedy Seller in New York and she'll
always be all over her Twitter, just like every CIS
(07:36):
male comedian punchline dick, dick, dick. It's like, all right,
you know, we've heard it a hundred times, Like, let's elevate.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Cheap punchlines that are meant to dehumanize us as trans
people are easy. In fact, it's lazy. It's not hard
to take all of the hateful rhetoric against trans people
and make it into a joke. Sad part is it's
not even hard to get the audience on your side.
The majority of SIS people do not accept trans people,
and even when they do a lot of times it
(08:10):
can be conditional based on us fitting the expectations they
have for us. The real challenge is making something funny
and thought provoking that's not a cheap shot. Let's dive
into our main topic. I want to talk to you
about the difference between trans attraction and stigmatized trans attraction.
I've talked on the show with other people before about
(08:33):
what we call tranning chasers, and I do not consider
you to be a chaser, because a chaser is somebody
who fetishizes trans women or trans person and treats them
as a sexual object that doesn't have any of their
own goals and desires and things like that, which is
very different than transattraction or being transamorous. Can I ask
(08:56):
you what? And You've hinted at a little bit like
you had a journey where you had to grow. When
did you first realize that you had trans attraction?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah? I wanted to just take a step back and
track the process, like why why is someone a chaser?
How do people become chasers? And what is the journey
through that? Right? I think a lot of you know,
I was raised in the suburbs of New York. Okay,
I wasn't raised in New York City. I didn't have
(09:30):
access to queer culture as a kid. I mean, you
know where I grew up, you were gay or you
were straight. Okay, it was like hot dogs and hamburgers.
You know, there was no avocado toast right, like you
were just one or the other, which, as I said before,
makes it especially hard to process. But even just discovering
trans women itself, there there were no trans women where
(09:52):
I grew up, and so my first discovery, and I
think a lot of guys their first discovery is through porn,
and of course, inherent you're gonna link trans women to
be sexual objects because your only experience of even seeing
them is in porn. And so that I think is
where it spawns for a lot of people, probably less
(10:14):
and less today, but at least when I grew up,
and I think a lot of the people that I
know who are in their twenties, and so you have
this stigmatization right from the beginning, and from there it's
a process of learning how to unlearn, and that's I
think the biggest part of the journey is unlearning and
being open. And so I probably realized I was trans
(10:37):
attracted Layton High School, and as I went to college
in DC, it was right when like all the dating
apps open, and so the first time I was with
a trans person was from a dating app, and I
think that's going to be true for a lot of systs.
Men who don't have access to queer culture or not
part of queer culture in a city.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Queerness is often associated with metropolitan lifestyles and big, crowded cities.
For this reason, it's easy to see the things that
the right is scared of. Happy people minding their own
business and not worrying about what their neighbors are doing.
Cities are often seen as liberal and dangerous places for conservatives,
(11:22):
but to queer people it gives us a sense of freedom, understanding,
and a lot of times access to the care that
we need. What are they so scared of the endless possibilities,
the freedom to live our lives unbothered and not to
mention queer people exist even in the most rural of places.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And so I had gone out with a transwoman and
I had these feelings afterwards of deep shame and not
understanding myself and not understanding you know, you know what
does this mean for me? Am I gay? And that
lasted for a long time. I mean, that was at
least two three years of that feeling and feeling ashamed
(12:02):
and not knowing how to process my own sexual feelings
and emotions. And in some ways you could call that
a chaser phase. And it wasn't until I talked to
my friend and we had an open conversation about it
that I was like, oh, shit, like this is not weird,
Like I can I don't need to be in this bucket,
Like I didn't know what trans attracted was. I didn't
know what transamorous was, Like I don't I was okay
(12:25):
not being in a bucket that I felt comfortable in
and just being like, oh, this is normal, this is
normal cool. And I think that's really what changed things
for me, talking to another straight CIS male that was
a close friend of mine and realizing that it wasn't
weird or that I didn't have to feel weird about
(12:47):
it and I didn't need to feel ashamed. And then
from that point is kind of where I was like,
I should be open about this. If it took my
friend talking to me for me to feel comfortable, then
I need to be that person for whoever. Then I
so nobody wants to be called a chaser, but I
also think nobody and there shouldn't be chasers. But I
(13:07):
think that within every chaser, there's an opportunity to really
let someone process their emotions and not be a chaser anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Absolutely, and to be a healthy, emotionally available person for
whoever it is that you're either going to be hooking
up with or or having a relationship with. I think
that's awesome to hear, because you know, and it kind
of answers my next question about how you gained this outlook,
and it's nice to hear that it was a process
for you to unlearn what porn teaches us to think
(13:39):
about trans women, because there's so much, like especially just
the words that they use important to talk about trans women.
There's so much objectification and stuff like that, and just
to be able to go from that to being somebody
who is not only able to confidently say that they're
straight and transattracted, but also to be able to make
jokes about it in a way that well, hopefully help
(14:01):
other men realize that it's okay to be straight and transattracted.
There's nothing weird about that, which brings me to one
of the other things I want to talk to you about,
and it's kind of another subject of how people have
responded to you opening up about your trans attraction to them,
And I don't mean people online, but I mean people
(14:22):
in your personal life. What has that been like for you.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Oh man, I'm an Italian Jew from the suburbs of
New York. You know, I'm not going to call anyone out,
but just my cultural heritage, it's not it's not part
of our culture. Let's just say that. And yeah, I
(14:48):
mean there was. I don't know how detailed do you
want me to be, but I mean I've been called
a faggot more times than I can probably count by
a lot of different people and at different parts of
my life. There have been some people who have been
super supportive, which has been really cool. And by supportive,
(15:09):
there's two ways. There's supportive as in like supportive and open,
and then they're supportive as in like, oh cool, and
then it's you don't talk about it anymore. But most
straight guys when they hear about this, or i'd say
it in a public space, I mean, it's like the
line of questioning is the most bizarre thing ever. Most guys, again,
(15:36):
the obsession is with the dick. Wait, so they have
a dick, what do you do with it? What is it?
What has And it's like so inappropriate and it's like
it's been a varied response.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, for sure, as I you know, as I would
expect and even as a trans woman dating straight man,
I get from people all the time, well that makes them,
you know, gay or whatever, and it's like, well, the
reality is I've been around gay in my whole life.
They're not attracted to me, you know. And it's funny
how going back to for me what I think it is.
(16:12):
And I don't know if you maybe agree with this,
but all I think transattraction comes down to is if
you're attracted to women, you're attracted to femininity, and you're
attracted to somebody who embodies femininity and the feminine spirit,
and it does. It's not more complicated than that for me.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
But and that's exactly, by the way, it's exactly what
I say, Exactly what I say. I'm like, I'm not
concerned with anything else. Put my attraction. If I was
attracted to gay men, like great, but my attraction is
only what I and who I feel attracted to. And
that's not something that I'm like walling off in my
(16:52):
head and it's just what is natural. And so I
agree totally. And that's what I always say to my
friends as well. It's like a tracted to feminine beings.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, and they come in lots of different varieties.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah. Yeah, We're going to take a quick break here, listeners,
and when we come back, we'll have more from Mickey.
We're back, beauties. Here's more from my conversation with Mickey
(17:29):
on the art of comedy. You mentioned like this is
your way of talking about trans issues and dating trans women,
is your way of engaging as a CIS straight man
with transactivism, which I love. But how do you think
people just regular guys who aren't comedians. I mean a
lot of guys like to think that they're comedians, probably right,
(17:50):
but regular guys who aren't comedians help normalize that for
themselves and friends and people they know.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I think it comes back to the goal or point
and reason and audience of people that I'm talking to, right.
I think I've gotten a lot of appreciation from trans
women about the jokes that I make, but really the
audience for my jokes is sis straight men, and it's
(18:18):
sis straight men who feel you know how I felt
years ago, where I'm like, am I weird? Do I?
I don't? I can't process my you know, it took
me a long time to get to where I am now. Right,
If I can take that path and make that shorter
for other people. That's the best thing that I can do.
And so I think it comes down to that, making
(18:40):
people feel more comfortable with themselves, making them understand themselves more,
making them understand that they're not weird or shamed or
whatever it is, to take them through that journey faster,
and then they can turn around and do the same
for somebody else. I think that's the cycle that is
going to make the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Okay, yeah, I love that. And I think it's so
rare to find a guy talking about trans women in
comedy in such a positive way. If we see men
joking about trans women, where do you think that comes from?
When they're doing that in like a hurtful, dehumanizing way.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I think the beauty of comedy is that you cross
every facet of society. All topics are available to be
talked about, and that's incredible. As long as you can,
you know, make somebody laugh, that's the goal. But there's
(19:38):
different levels of that. Just the topic of transness in
society over the last couple of years is it's prevalent.
I mean, it's really you know, people are talking about it.
So comedians talk about it. And when comedians say how
do I make people laugh? Sometimes it's the subtext, right,
what am I trying to say about society as a
(20:01):
whole or about my point of view on society. Comics
want to make people laugh, and they look for so
often just the lowest hanging fruit of a punchline. How
can I get people to laugh? And it doesn't matter
if it's cheap. So you essentially have one hundred comedians
making the same variation of the same joke over and
(20:22):
over and over again. And that's just using trans women
as a vehicle to press, you know, and touch on
just their pre transition or their masculinity. That's the vehicle.
That's what they're using to get the laughs and the
punch and it's low brow in my opinion. You know,
(20:42):
I think in our country we have a lot of
different people with a lot of different beliefs. And if
someone someone might genuinely believe something that's the opposite to me,
and if they can make a really intelligent joke about that,
then I'm not gonna not that. But the reality is
there's one hundred medians doing the same joke over and
over again. It's cheap and lazy.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
As we've said before, comedy is a commentary on society,
and it is an art form that can help us
learn about ourselves and even heal from some of the
darkest days. There's a reason why they say comedians are
often some of the most sad people. They speak to
something that they discovered about themselves or society, and it
may be tough for them to come to terms with.
(21:29):
They find a funny way to say it, and when
they say it and people laugh, it gives them another
perspective on the truth. All Right, we're going to take
another quick break and we'll be right back. Welcome back.
That's our last break for this episode. We're going to
(21:51):
wrap up our conversation with Mickey Farrow. I kind of
want to go back because we talked about like what
kind of reactions you've gotten from men? But I'm creed. Yes,
know what do cis women? Because I'm assuming you still
also date sis women? Yeah, And you know, like, what
do they say?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'd say eighty percent of the time it's more positive
and more respectful than men in general. But oh god,
it just depends. I mean, I did a show during
Pride where I had a group of friends come, and
I did a maybe an eight minute set which was
(22:30):
all related to my sexuality and dating trans women and
my family and the reactions and all this. And this
one girl that I met once before, she's just like appalled,
like I don't understand. So you're gay, Like I don't
get it, But mainly it's better than men.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I'm not surprised to hear this reaction from a SIS
woman regarding transattracted men. SIS women are often ready to
be our ally with simple phrases like trans women or
women or yes queen or oh my god, sleigh diva.
But when it comes to accepting us as part of
hetero society, many SIS women hold bioessentialist ideas about trans women.
(23:15):
That is to say, if you're born with a penis,
you cannot ever be separated from male identity in their minds.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
But the other thing that I think is interesting i'd
like to ask you, is like I've found within the
trans community, there's a lot of different perspectives and opinions
and things that people differ on. I got a little
bit with some of the reactions to earlier jokes i'd
posted where people said one thing, other people said another thing.
But what do you think are the main I guess
(23:42):
sort of riffs or things that trans women disagree on.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
As a trans woman, I've been transitioning for more than
fifteen years, and even my opinions about transness are not
accepted by the majority of trans people. Even I have
some beliefs that people might think are controversial or might
say that I shouldn't say certain things. So at the
(24:07):
end of the day, you're not going to be able
to please everyone, And so in my mind, as long
as you are not intentionally being like disrespectful, punching down
or anything like that. Like Dave Chappelle's joke about the
trans woman who comes into the meeting and slams her
dick on the table. That shit makes me laugh. It
(24:29):
cracks me the fuck up. And I know as a
trans person, I shouldn't be laughing at that, you know.
But it's all about who's making the joke, you know,
and with what intention they have. So even though I
laugh at that, I'm like still like, Okay, I don't
want to see him be the one to make that joke,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Right, But that's the nuance as well, Right, It's like, yeah,
you can think that's funny, and just because people are like, oh,
Dave Chappelle, fucking fuck you. Whatever you saw, people try
to everyone together and act as if there's no nuance.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
What kind of responses do you get from other comedians
about your comedy or from the industry. Does it affect bookings?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You know, it's interesting. On one hand, comics have been
actually pretty supportive as a whole. I think in comedy
people are always looking to talk about something that other
people aren't talking about. And I've gotten a lot of
positive feedback from comics like just keep going, just keep
going down this path, and I think it's gonna be great,
(25:32):
and I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people,
So keep doing that. On the other side, there's a
producer in New York that, like, right after one of
my sets, I was standing at the front of the
club and he just starts like berating me. And this
is like mid fifties guy. Thinks he's super funny, but
he's not. He's just essentially an asshole, and he's just
(25:56):
fucking braiding me, being just super inappropriate, super rude, super
and not just to me about my sexuality. But I
think just as a whole and there's the matre d
of the club sitting right in front. And this goes
on for like fifteen minutes. He walks back inside the
club and the maitre D turns to me and is like,
(26:17):
are you okay? Like that was so rude, Like what
the fuck is wrong with him? And it's one of
those things where I don't have enough clout to take
down someone i'd like to take down. You know, it's hard,
I think, especially as an up and coming comic. You
need the stage time, you need to get better, you
(26:37):
need to improve. There's only so many great rooms where
hundreds of people will be there at a given time
in a hot crowd. But you keep this in the
back of your head and like, okay, we'll see in
a year, two years, three years. You know you're sitting
right at the back, okay.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And So the final question I have for you. I
love to ask every guest this question because everybody has
a different answer. But I am going to ask you
this question a little bit differently because I normally ask
my guests what they find most beautiful about being a
trans person, and I want to ask you, in all
your time spent with trans people, but obviously primarily trans women.
(27:18):
I'm assuming, what do you find most beautiful about trans people?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I think it's sort of a two sided response, which is,
on one hand, it's the same thing I find beautiful
about anyone. I've always been more comfortable around women.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I think women are more sensitive, women are more open minded,
and you know, have a unique perspective that is different
from men, and it's I think, a more honest and
genuine more often, and of course intimacy, and so that
in one regard, it's the same with any woman. But
on the other hand, the thing I find most beautiful,
(27:58):
I think is the way that trans women have changed
who I am as a person. How through conversation and dating,
I've really become more aware of sort of the patriarchal
structure of our society, how much work us as men
need to do to create space for others in a
lot of ways, how narrow minded and undeveloped our education
(28:22):
system is, especially in places where I grew up, or
the suburbs and you know, outside of the cities, or
maybe you know big private schools that cover gender theory
and a bigger range of important cultural things for us
to learn. But I think ultimately, trans women.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have made me stronger and more beautiful to myself and
more able to love myself.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Oh well, I love to hear that. That's fantastic. Well, Mickey,
it was wonderful talking to you on the pod today.
Thank you for being so open and honest and vulnerable
with us.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I'm so happy you reached out and uh you invited
me to come on. I had fun.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Thank you. Could you share with the listeners where they
can find you.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, you guys can find me at Mickey Farrell across
All Socials and the Mickey Farrell Show on Patreon.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
All right, yeah, what about are you doing any live
shows this summer?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Oh? This summer, we haven't planned that far in advance yet.
I might be opening for somebody, but I don't I
can't give the details yet.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
All right, everyone, thank you for tuning in for another
fantastic episode of Beauty Translated. I hope you enjoyed my
enlightening conversation with the comedian Mickey Pharaoh, and I hope
you learned something today and take away from this that
just to live and let live already. Just let people be,
(29:57):
Let people be who they're attracted to, and don't make
them feel bad about it. We're here for only a
short time, so why should we spend our time trying
to knock other people down? And again, I want to
thank McGee Pharaoh for sharing his story with us today.
Please be sure to leave us a rating and review
over on Apple Podcasts, and if you haven't already, give
(30:19):
us a follow over on the Beauty Translated Instagram at
Beauty Translated Pod. Let us know how you felt about
today's episode and tune in on Monday for our next minifold.
Beauty Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced
by Kurt Garn and Jessica Crinchicch, with production assistance from
(30:40):
Jennifer Bassett. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Canter
for their support. Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman.
Beauty Translated is proud to be part of the Outspoken
network from iHeart Podcasts. For more iHeart Podcasts, listen on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
The
My attraction is only what I and who I feel
attracted to, and that's not something that I'm like walling
off in my head. It's just what is natural, and
so I'm not concerned with anything else put my attraction.
Speaker 2 (00:20):
Hello listeners, and welcome to another episode of Beauty Translated.
This week, I'm really excited to discuss our main topic,
trans attraction from the cis male perspective. Today's guest is
yet another person I met through the horrible photo sharing
app called Instagram. Mickey Farrow is a stand up comedian
from New York who isn't afraid to joke about his
(00:40):
trans attraction, and most impressively, he does it all without
further stigmatizing straight trans women. Please enjoy my conversation with
the hilarious Mickey Farrow. Today we have our very first
sis straight guest on Beauty Translated, and I'm very excited
(01:01):
to have him on the podcast. His name is Mickey
Farroh and he's a comedian based out of New York
and also la right.
Speaker 1 (01:08):
Yeah, little cross country situation by coastal, by coastal, but
don't consider myself by anything else but by coastal for sure.
Speaker 2 (01:18):
I love that well Welcome to the pod, Mickey. How
are you doing today.
Speaker 1 (01:22):
I'm so happy to be here. I'm great. I mean,
I escaped New York. I'm here in LA. Through this
little window closet, I could see some mountains. What's there
to complain about?
Speaker 2 (01:32):
Yeah, but La is gorgeous right now. But Mickey, I
want to start out by talking about how I came
to know you. On Instagram. You posted a reel I
guess we're calling it to your Instagram of one of
your one of your jokes that I just was so
delighted by, and I saw all of my other trans
(01:54):
women friends sharing it. Do care to tell a little
bit about what that viral joke was? Yeah?
Speaker 1 (02:02):
Sure, So. Comedy is my favorite thing to do in
the world. New York has the most vibrant comedy scene
in the world. It's I love comedy because it's such
a uniquely American form of art and expression, and it
really feels like one of the only outlets that we
have now. To be truthful, But yeah, the joke I
posted it was very simple. It was only two sentences,
(02:24):
and the joke was I've been dating a lot of
trans women lately. Any other straight guys dating trans women
or y'all just watching.
Speaker 2 (02:30):
The clips and the crowd goes wild.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
It was a good one, and it was a good
set that night. But writing jokes is really hard, and
writing good pointed jokes that really deliver what you want
to say concisely is really really hard. So I was
happy that not only it worked in the club and
people laughed, but that it resonated with the trans community
(02:54):
and and I think it in essence kind of says
where we are today.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
Oh yeah, absolutely with I mean, we're acknowledging the fact
that you and I both know that all across the nation,
transport is like the number one category in so many places,
and at the same time, anti trans legislation is also
really really high, and I think that that has a
lot to do with the main topic that we're going
to talk about today once we get into it, which
(03:23):
is going to be stigmatized trans attraction. But yeah, it's
kind of like funny how how it was very of
the time, very pointed, and I just thought it was
great and a lot of trans women loved it because
there's nothing more attractive to us than a guy who's
just openly willing and able to admit that he's into
(03:44):
transwomen and dates trans women.
Speaker 1 (03:47):
Yeah, and I you know, I appreciate that, but it's
just me being honest, and it was, you know, the
whole thing has been a journey. I think you can
appreciate that. And I certainly have been through my own
journey and getting to you know, where I am, and
you know, I'm from the suburbs, like it was very
there was not There was no gender studies where I
(04:10):
grew up. So having any sort of nuanced understanding of
your own sexuality is not a clear cut thing, and
I think it's the truth for a lot of straight
CIS men in this country who you know may have,
you know, a difficult time trying to process their own
sexuality or or their own feelings and they don't have
any any background or knowledge to be able to even.
Speaker 2 (04:35):
Do it right or like a healthy way to talk
about it right.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
Yeah, Well back up for me. I want to know,
like when you posted that, because like when you posted
that video that kind of went viral and everybody was
sharing it, you first had like I mean, like eight
hundred something followers. I want to say you gained like
five hundred followers after posting that joke. What was the
kind of like feedback and like the response you got
(05:00):
from that video, was it mostly like transwim being like, yes,
this is awesome.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
Yeah, I think now it's like a thousand, which is crazy.
And I got yeah, I got so many really sweet
messages saying, you know, thanks for just being honest and
not being afraid to you know, speak about your truth.
And I had posted some jokes before. I think that
was obviously the most pointed one and the best one.
I think it's been a process to even write good
(05:26):
jokes about this topic in a way that's achieve what
I you know, I think I'm trying to do with
my comedy. I think a lot of the people who
maybe are friends or I've known for a long time
because they had seen me post jokes about this before
all of that stigma and there was a lot of
it and a lot of things that have been said
(05:48):
that you know, it isn't there anymore, which is great
because it's you know, I'm very open about it. I
talk about it in my everyday life.
Speaker 2 (05:58):
Comedy is like a funhouse mirror forces society. It reflects
real life back but it looks goofy. I'm not surprised
to hear that Mickey became more comfortable with his own
trans attraction while also becoming more comfortable joking about the topic.
Speaker 1 (06:12):
The way I became comfortable with my own sexuality is
through talking to my friend and him opening up my
mind and realizing that I'm not weird or whatever, and
so I considered that part of my sort of journey.
So thankfully, it was a lot of really nice messages
and I was really happy about that.
Speaker 2 (06:29):
And also, you mentioned this wasn't the first time you
had written jokes about this, but you've just ca and
I've looked at all your jokes like they've consistently been
like really well written, positive jokes that are not further
stigmatizing trans women but actually kind of destigmatizing the experience
(06:50):
we have as trans women. What was that joke writing process?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Like, you know, I think it's gotten better, and I
think this has kind of been, you know, the culmination
of working. I mean, I've written so many jokes and
I think i've really it's they've gotten better and better.
But you know, I want to acknowledge that even if
earlier jokes that I had were trying to be pointed
the right way I think elevating to a place, and
(07:16):
I think it's something that you see with a lot
of comedians, you know, comedians oftentimes, especially SIS male comedians,
when they talk about trans women, the punchline is the dick.
There's a great trans comedian named Jay McBride who I love.
She's at the Comedy Seller in New York and she'll
always be all over her Twitter, just like every CIS
(07:36):
male comedian punchline dick, dick, dick. It's like, all right,
you know, we've heard it a hundred times, Like, let's elevate.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Cheap punchlines that are meant to dehumanize us as trans
people are easy. In fact, it's lazy. It's not hard
to take all of the hateful rhetoric against trans people
and make it into a joke. Sad part is it's
not even hard to get the audience on your side.
The majority of SIS people do not accept trans people,
and even when they do a lot of times it
(08:10):
can be conditional based on us fitting the expectations they
have for us. The real challenge is making something funny
and thought provoking that's not a cheap shot. Let's dive
into our main topic. I want to talk to you
about the difference between trans attraction and stigmatized trans attraction.
I've talked on the show with other people before about
(08:33):
what we call tranning chasers, and I do not consider
you to be a chaser, because a chaser is somebody
who fetishizes trans women or trans person and treats them
as a sexual object that doesn't have any of their
own goals and desires and things like that, which is
very different than transattraction or being transamorous. Can I ask
(08:56):
you what? And You've hinted at a little bit like
you had a journey where you had to grow. When
did you first realize that you had trans attraction?
Speaker 1 (09:08):
Yeah? I wanted to just take a step back and
track the process, like why why is someone a chaser?
How do people become chasers? And what is the journey
through that? Right? I think a lot of you know,
I was raised in the suburbs of New York. Okay,
I wasn't raised in New York City. I didn't have
(09:30):
access to queer culture as a kid. I mean, you
know where I grew up, you were gay or you
were straight. Okay, it was like hot dogs and hamburgers.
You know, there was no avocado toast right, like you
were just one or the other, which, as I said before,
makes it especially hard to process. But even just discovering
trans women itself, there there were no trans women where
(09:52):
I grew up, and so my first discovery, and I
think a lot of guys their first discovery is through porn,
and of course, inherent you're gonna link trans women to
be sexual objects because your only experience of even seeing
them is in porn. And so that I think is
where it spawns for a lot of people, probably less
(10:14):
and less today, but at least when I grew up,
and I think a lot of the people that I
know who are in their twenties, and so you have
this stigmatization right from the beginning, and from there it's
a process of learning how to unlearn, and that's I
think the biggest part of the journey is unlearning and
being open. And so I probably realized I was trans
(10:37):
attracted Layton High School, and as I went to college
in DC, it was right when like all the dating
apps open, and so the first time I was with
a trans person was from a dating app, and I
think that's going to be true for a lot of systs.
Men who don't have access to queer culture or not
part of queer culture in a city.
Speaker 2 (11:01):
Queerness is often associated with metropolitan lifestyles and big, crowded cities.
For this reason, it's easy to see the things that
the right is scared of. Happy people minding their own
business and not worrying about what their neighbors are doing.
Cities are often seen as liberal and dangerous places for conservatives,
(11:22):
but to queer people it gives us a sense of freedom, understanding,
and a lot of times access to the care that
we need. What are they so scared of the endless possibilities,
the freedom to live our lives unbothered and not to
mention queer people exist even in the most rural of places.
Speaker 1 (11:42):
And so I had gone out with a transwoman and
I had these feelings afterwards of deep shame and not
understanding myself and not understanding you know, you know what
does this mean for me? Am I gay? And that
lasted for a long time. I mean, that was at
least two three years of that feeling and feeling ashamed
(12:02):
and not knowing how to process my own sexual feelings
and emotions. And in some ways you could call that
a chaser phase. And it wasn't until I talked to
my friend and we had an open conversation about it
that I was like, oh, shit, like this is not weird,
Like I can I don't need to be in this bucket,
Like I didn't know what trans attracted was. I didn't
know what transamorous was, Like I don't I was okay
(12:25):
not being in a bucket that I felt comfortable in
and just being like, oh, this is normal, this is
normal cool. And I think that's really what changed things
for me, talking to another straight CIS male that was
a close friend of mine and realizing that it wasn't
weird or that I didn't have to feel weird about
(12:47):
it and I didn't need to feel ashamed. And then
from that point is kind of where I was like,
I should be open about this. If it took my
friend talking to me for me to feel comfortable, then
I need to be that person for whoever. Then I
so nobody wants to be called a chaser, but I
also think nobody and there shouldn't be chasers. But I
(13:07):
think that within every chaser, there's an opportunity to really
let someone process their emotions and not be a chaser anymore.
Speaker 2 (13:15):
Absolutely, and to be a healthy, emotionally available person for
whoever it is that you're either going to be hooking
up with or or having a relationship with. I think
that's awesome to hear, because you know, and it kind
of answers my next question about how you gained this outlook,
and it's nice to hear that it was a process
for you to unlearn what porn teaches us to think
(13:39):
about trans women, because there's so much, like especially just
the words that they use important to talk about trans women.
There's so much objectification and stuff like that, and just
to be able to go from that to being somebody
who is not only able to confidently say that they're
straight and transattracted, but also to be able to make
jokes about it in a way that well, hopefully help
(14:01):
other men realize that it's okay to be straight and transattracted.
There's nothing weird about that, which brings me to one
of the other things I want to talk to you about,
and it's kind of another subject of how people have
responded to you opening up about your trans attraction to them,
And I don't mean people online, but I mean people
(14:22):
in your personal life. What has that been like for you.
Speaker 1 (14:25):
Oh man, I'm an Italian Jew from the suburbs of
New York. You know, I'm not going to call anyone out,
but just my cultural heritage, it's not it's not part
of our culture. Let's just say that. And yeah, I
(14:48):
mean there was. I don't know how detailed do you
want me to be, but I mean I've been called
a faggot more times than I can probably count by
a lot of different people and at different parts of
my life. There have been some people who have been
super supportive, which has been really cool. And by supportive,
(15:09):
there's two ways. There's supportive as in like supportive and open,
and then they're supportive as in like, oh cool, and
then it's you don't talk about it anymore. But most
straight guys when they hear about this, or i'd say
it in a public space, I mean, it's like the
line of questioning is the most bizarre thing ever. Most guys, again,
(15:36):
the obsession is with the dick. Wait, so they have
a dick, what do you do with it? What is it?
What has And it's like so inappropriate and it's like
it's been a varied response.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
Yeah, for sure, as I you know, as I would
expect and even as a trans woman dating straight man,
I get from people all the time, well that makes them,
you know, gay or whatever, and it's like, well, the
reality is I've been around gay in my whole life.
They're not attracted to me, you know. And it's funny
how going back to for me what I think it is.
(16:12):
And I don't know if you maybe agree with this,
but all I think transattraction comes down to is if
you're attracted to women, you're attracted to femininity, and you're
attracted to somebody who embodies femininity and the feminine spirit,
and it does. It's not more complicated than that for me.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
But and that's exactly, by the way, it's exactly what
I say, Exactly what I say. I'm like, I'm not
concerned with anything else. Put my attraction. If I was
attracted to gay men, like great, but my attraction is
only what I and who I feel attracted to. And
that's not something that I'm like walling off in my
(16:52):
head and it's just what is natural. And so I
agree totally. And that's what I always say to my
friends as well. It's like a tracted to feminine beings.
Speaker 2 (17:01):
Yeah, and they come in lots of different varieties.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
Totally.
Speaker 2 (17:06):
Yeah. Yeah, We're going to take a quick break here, listeners,
and when we come back, we'll have more from Mickey.
We're back, beauties. Here's more from my conversation with Mickey
(17:29):
on the art of comedy. You mentioned like this is
your way of talking about trans issues and dating trans women,
is your way of engaging as a CIS straight man
with transactivism, which I love. But how do you think
people just regular guys who aren't comedians. I mean a
lot of guys like to think that they're comedians, probably right,
(17:50):
but regular guys who aren't comedians help normalize that for
themselves and friends and people they know.
Speaker 1 (17:57):
I think it comes back to the goal or point
and reason and audience of people that I'm talking to, right.
I think I've gotten a lot of appreciation from trans
women about the jokes that I make, but really the
audience for my jokes is sis straight men, and it's
(18:18):
sis straight men who feel you know how I felt
years ago, where I'm like, am I weird? Do I?
I don't? I can't process my you know, it took
me a long time to get to where I am now. Right,
If I can take that path and make that shorter
for other people. That's the best thing that I can do.
And so I think it comes down to that, making
(18:40):
people feel more comfortable with themselves, making them understand themselves more,
making them understand that they're not weird or shamed or
whatever it is, to take them through that journey faster,
and then they can turn around and do the same
for somebody else. I think that's the cycle that is
going to make the biggest difference.
Speaker 2 (18:59):
Okay, yeah, I love that. And I think it's so
rare to find a guy talking about trans women in
comedy in such a positive way. If we see men
joking about trans women, where do you think that comes from?
When they're doing that in like a hurtful, dehumanizing way.
Speaker 1 (19:17):
I think the beauty of comedy is that you cross
every facet of society. All topics are available to be
talked about, and that's incredible. As long as you can,
you know, make somebody laugh, that's the goal. But there's
(19:38):
different levels of that. Just the topic of transness in
society over the last couple of years is it's prevalent.
I mean, it's really you know, people are talking about it.
So comedians talk about it. And when comedians say how
do I make people laugh? Sometimes it's the subtext, right,
what am I trying to say about society as a
(20:01):
whole or about my point of view on society. Comics
want to make people laugh, and they look for so
often just the lowest hanging fruit of a punchline. How
can I get people to laugh? And it doesn't matter
if it's cheap. So you essentially have one hundred comedians
making the same variation of the same joke over and
(20:22):
over and over again. And that's just using trans women
as a vehicle to press, you know, and touch on
just their pre transition or their masculinity. That's the vehicle.
That's what they're using to get the laughs and the
punch and it's low brow in my opinion. You know,
(20:42):
I think in our country we have a lot of
different people with a lot of different beliefs. And if
someone someone might genuinely believe something that's the opposite to me,
and if they can make a really intelligent joke about that,
then I'm not gonna not that. But the reality is
there's one hundred medians doing the same joke over and
over again. It's cheap and lazy.
Speaker 2 (21:08):
As we've said before, comedy is a commentary on society,
and it is an art form that can help us
learn about ourselves and even heal from some of the
darkest days. There's a reason why they say comedians are
often some of the most sad people. They speak to
something that they discovered about themselves or society, and it
may be tough for them to come to terms with.
(21:29):
They find a funny way to say it, and when
they say it and people laugh, it gives them another
perspective on the truth. All Right, we're going to take
another quick break and we'll be right back. Welcome back.
That's our last break for this episode. We're going to
(21:51):
wrap up our conversation with Mickey Farrow. I kind of
want to go back because we talked about like what
kind of reactions you've gotten from men? But I'm creed. Yes,
know what do cis women? Because I'm assuming you still
also date sis women? Yeah, And you know, like, what
do they say?
Speaker 1 (22:10):
I'd say eighty percent of the time it's more positive
and more respectful than men in general. But oh god,
it just depends. I mean, I did a show during
Pride where I had a group of friends come, and
I did a maybe an eight minute set which was
(22:30):
all related to my sexuality and dating trans women and
my family and the reactions and all this. And this
one girl that I met once before, she's just like appalled,
like I don't understand. So you're gay, Like I don't
get it, But mainly it's better than men.
Speaker 2 (22:52):
I'm not surprised to hear this reaction from a SIS
woman regarding transattracted men. SIS women are often ready to
be our ally with simple phrases like trans women or
women or yes queen or oh my god, sleigh diva.
But when it comes to accepting us as part of
hetero society, many SIS women hold bioessentialist ideas about trans women.
(23:15):
That is to say, if you're born with a penis,
you cannot ever be separated from male identity in their minds.
Speaker 1 (23:22):
But the other thing that I think is interesting i'd
like to ask you, is like I've found within the
trans community, there's a lot of different perspectives and opinions
and things that people differ on. I got a little
bit with some of the reactions to earlier jokes i'd
posted where people said one thing, other people said another thing.
But what do you think are the main I guess
(23:42):
sort of riffs or things that trans women disagree on.
Speaker 2 (23:46):
As a trans woman, I've been transitioning for more than
fifteen years, and even my opinions about transness are not
accepted by the majority of trans people. Even I have
some beliefs that people might think are controversial or might
say that I shouldn't say certain things. So at the
(24:07):
end of the day, you're not going to be able
to please everyone, And so in my mind, as long
as you are not intentionally being like disrespectful, punching down
or anything like that. Like Dave Chappelle's joke about the
trans woman who comes into the meeting and slams her
dick on the table. That shit makes me laugh. It
(24:29):
cracks me the fuck up. And I know as a
trans person, I shouldn't be laughing at that, you know.
But it's all about who's making the joke, you know,
and with what intention they have. So even though I
laugh at that, I'm like still like, Okay, I don't
want to see him be the one to make that joke,
you know what I mean?
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Right, But that's the nuance as well, Right, It's like, yeah,
you can think that's funny, and just because people are like, oh,
Dave Chappelle, fucking fuck you. Whatever you saw, people try
to everyone together and act as if there's no nuance.
Speaker 2 (25:02):
What kind of responses do you get from other comedians
about your comedy or from the industry. Does it affect bookings?
Speaker 1 (25:11):
You know, it's interesting. On one hand, comics have been
actually pretty supportive as a whole. I think in comedy
people are always looking to talk about something that other
people aren't talking about. And I've gotten a lot of
positive feedback from comics like just keep going, just keep
going down this path, and I think it's gonna be great,
(25:32):
and I think it's gonna resonate with a lot of people,
So keep doing that. On the other side, there's a
producer in New York that, like, right after one of
my sets, I was standing at the front of the
club and he just starts like berating me. And this
is like mid fifties guy. Thinks he's super funny, but
he's not. He's just essentially an asshole, and he's just
(25:56):
fucking braiding me, being just super inappropriate, super rude, super
and not just to me about my sexuality. But I
think just as a whole and there's the matre d
of the club sitting right in front. And this goes
on for like fifteen minutes. He walks back inside the
club and the maitre D turns to me and is like,
(26:17):
are you okay? Like that was so rude, Like what
the fuck is wrong with him? And it's one of
those things where I don't have enough clout to take
down someone i'd like to take down. You know, it's hard,
I think, especially as an up and coming comic. You
need the stage time, you need to get better, you
(26:37):
need to improve. There's only so many great rooms where
hundreds of people will be there at a given time
in a hot crowd. But you keep this in the
back of your head and like, okay, we'll see in
a year, two years, three years. You know you're sitting
right at the back, okay.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
And So the final question I have for you. I
love to ask every guest this question because everybody has
a different answer. But I am going to ask you
this question a little bit differently because I normally ask
my guests what they find most beautiful about being a
trans person, and I want to ask you, in all
your time spent with trans people, but obviously primarily trans women.
(27:18):
I'm assuming, what do you find most beautiful about trans people?
Speaker 1 (27:23):
I think it's sort of a two sided response, which is,
on one hand, it's the same thing I find beautiful
about anyone. I've always been more comfortable around women.
Speaker 3 (27:37):
I think women are more sensitive, women are more open minded,
and you know, have a unique perspective that is different
from men, and it's I think, a more honest and
genuine more often, and of course intimacy, and so that
in one regard, it's the same with any woman. But
on the other hand, the thing I find most beautiful,
(27:58):
I think is the way that trans women have changed
who I am as a person. How through conversation and dating,
I've really become more aware of sort of the patriarchal
structure of our society, how much work us as men
need to do to create space for others in a
lot of ways, how narrow minded and undeveloped our education
(28:22):
system is, especially in places where I grew up, or
the suburbs and you know, outside of the cities, or
maybe you know big private schools that cover gender theory
and a bigger range of important cultural things for us
to learn. But I think ultimately, trans women.
Speaker 1 (28:38):
Have made me stronger and more beautiful to myself and
more able to love myself.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Oh well, I love to hear that. That's fantastic. Well, Mickey,
it was wonderful talking to you on the pod today.
Thank you for being so open and honest and vulnerable
with us.
Speaker 1 (29:03):
I'm so happy you reached out and uh you invited
me to come on. I had fun.
Speaker 2 (29:09):
Thank you. Could you share with the listeners where they
can find you.
Speaker 1 (29:14):
Yeah, you guys can find me at Mickey Farrell across
All Socials and the Mickey Farrell Show on Patreon.
Speaker 2 (29:21):
All right, yeah, what about are you doing any live
shows this summer?
Speaker 1 (29:26):
Oh? This summer, we haven't planned that far in advance yet.
I might be opening for somebody, but I don't I
can't give the details yet.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
All right, everyone, thank you for tuning in for another
fantastic episode of Beauty Translated. I hope you enjoyed my
enlightening conversation with the comedian Mickey Pharaoh, and I hope
you learned something today and take away from this that
just to live and let live already. Just let people be,
(29:57):
Let people be who they're attracted to, and don't make
them feel bad about it. We're here for only a
short time, so why should we spend our time trying
to knock other people down? And again, I want to
thank McGee Pharaoh for sharing his story with us today.
Please be sure to leave us a rating and review
over on Apple Podcasts, and if you haven't already, give
(30:19):
us a follow over on the Beauty Translated Instagram at
Beauty Translated Pod. Let us know how you felt about
today's episode and tune in on Monday for our next minifold.
Beauty Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced
by Kurt Garn and Jessica Crinchicch, with production assistance from
(30:40):
Jennifer Bassett. Special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Canter
for their support. Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman.
Beauty Translated is proud to be part of the Outspoken
network from iHeart Podcasts. For more iHeart Podcasts, listen on
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1 (31:00):
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