July 19, 2023 • 30 mins
In this very special two-part finale of season 2 of Beauty Translated, Carmen speaks with living legend Monica Helms and her wife Darlene Wagner. They discuss Monica's life, activism, and creation of the trans pride flag, then we open up the conversation to speaking about what it means to be two trans women in love and married in the South, religion, and spirituality, and parenting. Be sure to check out the 2nd part of this interview - in your feeds now!
For more from Carmen and Beauty Translated follow @thecarmenlaurent & @beautytranslatedpod
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
I woke up one morning and the image of the
flag came into my mind, and I got up and
threw it out, and a week later I had the
first trans flag.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello listeners, and welcome back to Beauty translated. This week
marks the end of another beautiful season of our show,
and I can't think of a better way to close
out than with a two part interview with a major
trans trailblazer, the woman who created the trans Pride flag,
Monica Helms. Her wife Darling Wagner, also joins us for
an enlightening chat with those who have made history and
(00:37):
brought us to where we are today. Without further ado,
here is the wonderful Monica Helms. So thank you both
for being here with me today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, thank you for inviting us.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, thank you. Monica had been working with Dallas Denny,
who was publishing Monica's writing in Chris and Tapestry TSTV
Tapestry magazines, much of which you can easily access to
Dan thanks to digital trenched into archive dot net. She
(01:10):
quickly became a well known activist and thought leader on
trans issues in the late nineteen eighties and into the
nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I spent eight years in the Navy, served on two submarines.
I was married and had two sons, and now I
have four grandsons. I transitioned in nineteen ninety seven, so
I've been living this life for quite a long time
my true self and I was an activist in the
trans community, mostly for trans veterans. CO founded a organization,
(01:41):
the Transgender American Veterans Association, and also oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Created the transflat Yeah absolutely created the trans Pride flag,
which is huge. Yes, Monica Holmes was the first person
to create a flag that would unite the entire trans community.
The entire LGBTQ plus community was already represented under the
famous rainbow flag created by Gilbert Baker in nineteen seventy eight,
(02:11):
and today the community has more than ninety individual flags
to represent the individual communities under the rainbow flag. You've
seen it, you know it. It's as simple and beautiful
as the rainbow flag before it. Two blue stripes followed
by two pink in the middle and a singular white
stripe at the center.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I was born in South Carolina, but I wasn't raised here.
Spent most of my life in Arizona.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think I read that you returned to South Carolina
and the military. And was that around the time you
started transitioning.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No, you don't transition into villagary. Well, that's true, that's true,
especially not in the nineteen seventies. But I discovered who
I was.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
When we say back then, it wasn't even that long
ago that trans individuals had to fit a certain mold
in order to be given treatment to begin transitioning. It's
thanks to activists such as Monica Dallastinni and many before
them that we have the freedom from medical gatekeeping to
access treatment for ourselves as trans people, a freedom that
(03:15):
is slowly being reversed in this country state by state,
just like many other freedoms that women have gained in
the past.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
But I didn't have a name to it, There was
no name for it back then. But I did know
that if the Navy caught me dressing as a woman,
they would kick me out.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Around the time that you discovered who you were and
you realized that this was your true self and you
had to keep that hidden for a while, what was
that like for you.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, you know, just to had to make sure that
any of the things that I had for dressing up
would be well hid in someplace. But you see, at
the time, I didn't realize that I was a train
gender woman because one of the things that would have
(04:04):
given me away would have been my attraction to men,
which I was not. And so in the nineteen eighties,
I thought I was a heterosexual cross dresser. But my
wife wasn't too thrilled about any of that.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, and back then there was a lot of gatekeeping
around who could transition exactly, and if you were attracted
to women, then they were less likely to give you
access to transition, right. Yeah, And of course that's changed
for the better now, but yeah, that's a challenge that
you had to live with for a while. Exactly soon
Monica would find herself in Atlanta and close to the
(04:41):
home base of Dallastani and aegis, the American Educational Gender
Information Service.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
One day, I believe it or not, something tell me
I had to leave Phoenix and the job that I
had there was a long distance operator for Sprint, and
I see the writing on the wall that long distance
operators were not long for this world. So I looked
around and found places in Atlanta that was still far
(05:12):
to Sprint, and so I transferred. But I had already
created the flag before that. Well, first of all, I
didn't create it for the trans community because I didn't
know whether it would be popular or not. So I
was having dinner with Michael Page, which is the person
who created the Bisexual Pride flag, and he said that,
(05:34):
you know, the trans community could use a flag too,
and we talked about it, and he said the best
thing is to keep it simple because the least amount
of stitches, the chiefer it is to buy, and chiefers
sell because back then they weren't silk screening flags.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Back then, they were stitching the individual yeah colors together.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And so about two weeks later, I woke up one
morning and the image of the flag came into my
mind and I got up and drew it out. It
looked really good, and I contacted the people that made
the Bisexual Pride flag and they sent me swatches and
I picked the swatches out and a week later I
(06:16):
had the first trans flag. Everybody was asking what's that?
What's that? And I had to explain to him just
a transgender flag. And the colors mean this light blue
is traditional color for baby boys, and pink traditional color
for baby girls. And the white in the middle is
for those that are non binary or have no gender.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
At all, gender non conforming. Yes, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
See some of those terms were invented back then, right. Yeah.
Along the way, I had to change the meaning of
the white stripe to be with whatever is the current today.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, because now there's its own non binary flag, yes,
which I guess there wasn't when you made the trans
flag exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, there's like ninety different flags that represent people in
this community.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
How do you feel about the significance of flags for
a movement or for getting a point across? Is there importance?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
There? There is importance. And I'm also on the board
of the Gilbert Baker Foundation. Gilbert Baker was the one
that created the rainbow flag, and this board is to
help to promote all the different flags and to promote
the rainbow flag. And I feel that it's a very
(07:34):
important organization because it helps to fight the hatred towards
LGBTQ people, and the flags are some of the things
that help us to show our loyalty in ourselves.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
When you debut the flag in two thousand and people
were very curious about it. It caught on quickly. How
do you feel like we have progressed or even maybe
regressed as a community since then, and since everyone's like
adopted it, how do you feel like things have changed
since then?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, I didn't realize that it was being popular until
twenty thirteen when I started looking at pride across the
world and I started seeing the trans flag in places
and colors, the trans colors, and I'm going, WHOA, this
(08:29):
is interesting. I mean, it really surprised me. And now
I've seen the flag on every continent, including Antarctica. The
only two flags that have been shown on Antarctica are
the Rainbow flag in the trans flag.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Seeing her flag's colors in every country, on every continent
even proved that what it stands for is in fact
present in culture is worldwide. Monica knew that what she
had created was a significant symbol of a moon men
and had earned its place in the history of human civilization.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So in twenty thirteen, I said, oh, no, I have
the original flag. I need to find a place to
put it so it'd be safe. So I decided to
start at the top and contacted the Smithsonian. And the
Smithsonian was just starting to collect LGBTQ items, and so
(09:26):
they were interested in this and I had to tell
them all about the flag and all about me, because
they don't just want you to give something. They want
to know about the people that donate. They want to
know the history of this person. And they do bring
it out occasionally for various reasons to show.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
For maybe like trendsday of visibility, or remember.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Very yeah, various things of that nature. And August nineteenth
is the day I created the flag, and was actually
the day I ended up donating it to the Smithsonian
fifteen years later. Oh that's a transgender flag day.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That's awesome. August nineteenth.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
August nineteenth.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I wanted to ask you about another flag that is
a newer flag.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We're going to take a quick break here, listeners. When
we come back, Monica and I talk more flags and
we're back. I wanted to ask you about another flag
(10:37):
that is a newer flag.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Is it okay if we talk about the progress flag?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yes, And you'll get negative responses from me, that's.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Fine because I personally don't love the Progress flag myself,
and I want you to share your honest opinions. About
it because I have some opinions about it too.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Well, there's more than just opinions. There's the fact that
the guy that created it, Dan Quaysar, and what he
did was he made it a copyrighted flag, so people
have to pay more for the flag, more for the design.
Companies can't use it without you know, paying money for it,
(11:18):
and every other flag that's out there is was given
to the.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Community as free to use public domain.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Second of all, he didn't even have the courtesy of
contacting me and said I want to use your colors
in my flag. I probably would have been okay by
if he asked, but he never did. And now he's
making money off of something that I.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Created, right, which you never even sought to see a
profit on to begin with.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And so this is not a we're we're not very
happy that people those of us at the Guilt Baker Foundation,
though officially they don't see anything about it, but it's
definitely something that everybody is upset about.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, and I think even I'm a younger trans person,
I'm a younger LGBT person, and I've seen the introduction
of the progress flag, and initially I wanted to be
excited about it. But once you learn about the fact
that it's copyrighted and you have to license it for
a fee and all of that, that is very It's
kind of the antithesis of what we want as a community, right.
(12:34):
And then another thing too that I feel like is
interesting about the progress flag is I feel like it
and I don't know if you feel this way, but
I feel like the rainbow flag was already including of everyone.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah. Well, see, now there's something that I have an
analogy for that. I look at the rainbow flag like
the American flag, and all the other flags in the
community are like state flags. So the rainbow flag includes everybody,
and then you have your own individual flag for your
(13:08):
own personal right.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So it's almost like it was an unnecessary addition.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, he was trying to be inclusive and and he
ended up with something that looked a little ugly.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
The other thing about it too, is that it was
updated within the same year to include the intersex flag,
and then it was updated again to include the Umbrella
for sex Workers on the flag. And in my opinion,
and I think a lot of young people that are
watching this happen, it's almost like it's never going to
be inclusive enough, Like we're just going to continue to
(13:44):
update that Progress flag until it looks like a quilt
of some kind, you know, yeah, does it feel that way?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Or I just like I didn't like it originally and
I'm not going to like anything that's updated. So you know,
it's a to me, it would be very useless to
use it, And you know, stick with the rainbow flag.
And if you know, you want to show your own
(14:12):
colors or bisexual flag or trans flag, whatever those are,
it's important too.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
The spirit that lies behind a symbol is important. It
is this spirit that allows the message that the symbol
represents to fully wrap its arms around a group of people.
While the Progress Flag was created with a spirit that
was about personal, notoriety and profit at the expense of
the message, it is no surprise that it ultimately failed
(14:42):
to be as inclusive as it was trying to be.
When Monica created the trans Pride Flag, she understood the
importance of the symbol's spirit and being unified by it,
and today the original Pride flag, in all its elegant simplicity,
still unites everyone under the LGBTQ plus umbrella. Do you
(15:05):
feel like the trans flag is more important than it
has ever been.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I feel that it. Yeah, it definitely helps. I see
it at all these protests that are out there, you know,
protesting bands on gender confirming healthcare, and and now Florida
has gone to the point where they get band gender
confirming healthcare for all adults and every every trans person.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah yeah, and everyone is losing their healthcare providers in Florida.
Texas is trying to do the same thing where it's
they're making it basically untenable for doctors to perform gender
affirming care. How do you feel like, what do you
think is a way forward for us as a community
in all of this?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Vote? Yeah, don't vote for anybody that has an R
and in front of their name, Okay, because you know
we're looking at I mean, I'll just say it. Ronda
Santis is a Nazi. Yeah, he is a full out Nazi.
He's doing things that Nazi Germany did in the thirties. Yeah,
(16:19):
banning books, and he wants to have a register of
transgender people.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah. So, which is an alarmed you know what?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
You know what that leads to?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Absolutely, Yeah, it's a it's alarming, and it's it's terrifying,
and I think in twenty twenty four, we're just going
to continue to as the presidential campaign ramps up, it's
just going to continue to be more and more difficult
for trans people. I think as these things get talked
about in the public.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, we're even thinking of moving really out of Georgia.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. And how long have you?
How long have you lived here?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Since two thousand and Darlene's been here most of her.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, because this is where you were raised, right, Yeah. Wow.
Darlene Wagner is Monica's wife, and as we're both lifelong
george Natives, I felt connected to her. Here's Darlene.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I have lived in Georgia for an overwhelming majority of
my years. I spent a little time in the Western
States between undergrad and graduate school, and I started Georgia
Tech just down the street from here graduate school in
(17:37):
two thousand and four, and in twenty twelve, I graduated
from Georgia Tech with a PhD in bioinformatics. Bioinformatics is
basically computer science applied to biology and DNA sequencing. Tell
her when you transition started your transition. I'll get around that.
(18:03):
At present, I work at the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention doing bioinformatics. It can get a little boring
for me because I'm a real people person. I'm not
your stereotypical introverted scientist.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Type computer person. Yeah. I was reading about you and
I saw that on your blog I think you had
from like years ago, you said that the two books
that you live your life by are the Bible and Nature.
Do you care to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yes, Well, I have really been into nature in the
outdoors since I was very young. Everything dealing with all
the dysphoria I had growing up, Being out in nature
had a healing effect on me, so I tried to
spend as much time as much of my free time
(18:54):
camping out and hiking as possible, especially in my late
teens early twenties. One time, when I was nineteen years old,
I went on a ninety five mile hike to five
days between undergrad where I went to University of North
(19:16):
Georgia for undergrad got a degree in both biology and mathematics.
After that, I worked in Arizona, Texas, Montana, and Alaska
in wildlife management type work, and then I decided that
I'm more of a people person than an animal person.
So I came back to Georgia to do grad school.
(19:40):
But as for the Bible, it has unfortunately been a
fraud relationship between the LGBT community and the Christian Bible.
I'm going to come out and say that the Bible
is used to beat up on us routinely. However, the
(20:04):
people who use the Bible and misuse the Bible to
beat up on us don't actually know what it says
the Bible. I have read all of it through and
through multiple versions. There's the old King James version, which
the people who hate on us like to use, but
(20:25):
there's also the new Revised Standard Version, the New International Version,
and my favorite version, the Young's Literal Translation, which are
much more accurate in light of the ancient scrolls on
which the Bible is based. The ancient texts of the
(20:51):
Bible never at any point mentioned. The concept of eternal
damnation to hell fire was a concept that was made
up out of thin air by the Catholic Church and
picked up and expanded upon by fundamentalist Protestant churches. They
(21:13):
are perpetuating a false doctrine that God or whoever the
higher power ruler of the universe is condemns certain groups
of people to everlasting rejection in a place called hell.
(21:33):
That is not in the Bible. The Scripture is very liberatory,
very emancipatory, tells the good news, the good tidings of
great joy to all people. And how Christ, whom I
believe to be the Word made flesh, the Bible and
(21:55):
Jesus I think of, is practically interchangeable. They came to
seek and save. They came to save the world, and
not condemn the world, the whole world, not just a
few chosen privileged people out of the world. So to
make it simple, I want to say to all LGBT
(22:20):
people out there, all my sisters, brothers, comrades, everyone in
my community, that whoever it is your higher power, is God,
Goddess Universe. You are tenderly and amazingly loved. You are
not going to hell. No matter what the haters say.
(22:42):
The haters are wrong. They are as wrong as both
the Scripture and nature are true. You are loved by God,
and if there is a life after death, we will
all be reconciled together in the divine living in joy forever.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
It was beautiful that tiary.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
She is carried away something.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
No, that was great. That was great.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Well, there are a few things that are worth getting
carried away on. And I also wanted to bring a
little bit of good tidings during this time of fear.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think we need it. Darlene, do you want to
talk a little bit about your transition story or Oh?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yes, As I said, I went to grad school at
Georgia Tech between two thousand and four and I graduated
in twenty twelve. I transitioned in two thousand and nine.
That was in the middle of grad school. That was
around the time I was taking my PhD qualifier exams,
and my professors were none too happy with my decision
(23:56):
to change my appearance, change my name. But I had
the deans and the college administration on my side. I
am fairly skilled at working through bureaucracies.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Which is kind of half the battle as a transperson
is working through those bureaucracies and getting what we need.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
We must be master diplomats, master negotiators, because that is
probably our superpower. We can always put on a charm offensive.
And so two thousand and nine I transitioned or started transitioning.
It was the middle of grad school. It was rough, however,
(24:42):
I had the advantage of being a grad student. They
can't fire a graduate student. Soon afterwards, soon after starting transition,
I met Monica and it was my life has been
so much and more stable and happier since.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So you two have been together now for how many years?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Two thousand and nine, fourteen, fourteen?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
And are you married or yes? Okay? When did you
guys get married?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Twenty sixteen?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
It was already legal, but a certain orange haired fellow
won the election to the White House. We were afraid
that gay marriage would be taken away, so we figured
we'd run and get married in the courthouse as soon
as we could. It's sad and scary, but it is
another one of those things that points to the strength
(25:38):
and adaptability of our community. We are more than just
bodies and minds and ideas or ideology. We are a
natural phenomenon, a force of nature, if you will. Governments
cannot stamp out a force of nature.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Thank you, Darlene for those powerful words. We're going to
take the last break here and we'll be right back.
(26:29):
And when back, beauties, you make music for transliteration, Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Suh?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Well, I try to. I'm very shy I'm not into
the gay bar scene. I'm not into the drag scene.
Since I think of myself as full time living as female,
it feels kind of it would feel kind of silly
to me getting all gussied up in a sequine gown
(26:57):
and then sing my folkloric, rustic type music in a glitzy,
glamorous downtown bar. It just it just aesthetically, it just
doesn't all fit together. So I really haven't really found
much of a venue in which to perform my songs.
(27:21):
I like to sing of Goddess of Nature, which is
another interesting thing about my spirituality. I used to be
Wickan because I thought, well, that's a good nature centered religion.
But then I got more into Christian and Jewish scriptures
and realized that whatever God or goddess or universe out
(27:44):
there there is accepts us all in the traditional Christian
notions of condemnation and judgment are wrong. So I had
no more excuse to turn my back on Judah Christianity.
So I went back to the tradition I was raised in,
(28:06):
with some modifications, of course, no more hell and damnation.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And where you raised Southern Baptist.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yes, Southern Baptist slash Methodist. As soon as I got
my driver's license, I said goodbye to my parents Southern
Baptist church and went over to the Methodist church down
the street.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Gotcha, Yeah, it's a lot more chill there, I'm assuming,
not as a hell fire and brimstone.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I much preferred hearing sermons about baseball than hell.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah. I grew up Catholic and that was about the same.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I also was raised Catholic. Yeah, so I say that
I was religiously abused when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, I'm traumatized by I say, I'm traumatized by religion.
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, well, we ought to have we ought to have
a trans group for recovering Catholics.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I agree. Actually, I know a lot of recovering Catholic
trans people that have really been through the ringer in
the church. I'm always interested on the subject of spirituality
and transness because so much of religion, or mainstream religion
and people that preach it are preaching an anti trans
or an anti gay idea of their religion. But I'm
(29:26):
always delighted to see other trans people embracing their spirituality
in a new way that is accepting of their identity
because we really should. I mean, if your religion is
exclusive to certain people, is it really the kind of
church you want to be in? You know, like, if
it's telling you that these people are bad, how does
(29:46):
your church grow? Exactly? Exactly? All right, listeners, If you
enjoyed that, then please tune into part two of my
interview with Monica Helms and her wife Darlene Wagner in
your feed now, as we talk about their marriage and
their relationship as too trans woman in the sound. Beauty
(30:08):
Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced by
Kurt Garn and Jessica Crinchich, with production assistance from Jennifer Bassett.
Special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Cantor for their support.
Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman. Beauty Translated
is proud to be part of the Outspoken network from
iHeart Podcasts. For more iHeart podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
(30:32):
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts
I woke up one morning and the image of the
flag came into my mind, and I got up and
threw it out, and a week later I had the
first trans flag.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
Hello listeners, and welcome back to Beauty translated. This week
marks the end of another beautiful season of our show,
and I can't think of a better way to close
out than with a two part interview with a major
trans trailblazer, the woman who created the trans Pride flag,
Monica Helms. Her wife Darling Wagner, also joins us for
an enlightening chat with those who have made history and
(00:37):
brought us to where we are today. Without further ado,
here is the wonderful Monica Helms. So thank you both
for being here with me today.
Speaker 1 (00:48):
Well, thank you for inviting us.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Yeah, thank you. Monica had been working with Dallas Denny,
who was publishing Monica's writing in Chris and Tapestry TSTV
Tapestry magazines, much of which you can easily access to
Dan thanks to digital trenched into archive dot net. She
(01:10):
quickly became a well known activist and thought leader on
trans issues in the late nineteen eighties and into the
nineteen nineties.
Speaker 1 (01:17):
I spent eight years in the Navy, served on two submarines.
I was married and had two sons, and now I
have four grandsons. I transitioned in nineteen ninety seven, so
I've been living this life for quite a long time
my true self and I was an activist in the
trans community, mostly for trans veterans. CO founded a organization,
(01:41):
the Transgender American Veterans Association, and also oh yeah.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
Created the transflat Yeah absolutely created the trans Pride flag,
which is huge. Yes, Monica Holmes was the first person
to create a flag that would unite the entire trans community.
The entire LGBTQ plus community was already represented under the
famous rainbow flag created by Gilbert Baker in nineteen seventy eight,
(02:11):
and today the community has more than ninety individual flags
to represent the individual communities under the rainbow flag. You've
seen it, you know it. It's as simple and beautiful
as the rainbow flag before it. Two blue stripes followed
by two pink in the middle and a singular white
stripe at the center.
Speaker 1 (02:33):
I was born in South Carolina, but I wasn't raised here.
Spent most of my life in Arizona.
Speaker 2 (02:40):
I think I read that you returned to South Carolina
and the military. And was that around the time you
started transitioning.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
No, you don't transition into villagary. Well, that's true, that's true,
especially not in the nineteen seventies. But I discovered who
I was.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
When we say back then, it wasn't even that long
ago that trans individuals had to fit a certain mold
in order to be given treatment to begin transitioning. It's
thanks to activists such as Monica Dallastinni and many before
them that we have the freedom from medical gatekeeping to
access treatment for ourselves as trans people, a freedom that
(03:15):
is slowly being reversed in this country state by state,
just like many other freedoms that women have gained in
the past.
Speaker 1 (03:25):
But I didn't have a name to it, There was
no name for it back then. But I did know
that if the Navy caught me dressing as a woman,
they would kick me out.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Around the time that you discovered who you were and
you realized that this was your true self and you
had to keep that hidden for a while, what was
that like for you.
Speaker 1 (03:44):
Well, you know, just to had to make sure that
any of the things that I had for dressing up
would be well hid in someplace. But you see, at
the time, I didn't realize that I was a train
gender woman because one of the things that would have
(04:04):
given me away would have been my attraction to men,
which I was not. And so in the nineteen eighties,
I thought I was a heterosexual cross dresser. But my
wife wasn't too thrilled about any of that.
Speaker 2 (04:19):
Yeah, and back then there was a lot of gatekeeping
around who could transition exactly, and if you were attracted
to women, then they were less likely to give you
access to transition, right. Yeah, And of course that's changed
for the better now, but yeah, that's a challenge that
you had to live with for a while. Exactly soon
Monica would find herself in Atlanta and close to the
(04:41):
home base of Dallastani and aegis, the American Educational Gender
Information Service.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
One day, I believe it or not, something tell me
I had to leave Phoenix and the job that I
had there was a long distance operator for Sprint, and
I see the writing on the wall that long distance
operators were not long for this world. So I looked
around and found places in Atlanta that was still far
(05:12):
to Sprint, and so I transferred. But I had already
created the flag before that. Well, first of all, I
didn't create it for the trans community because I didn't
know whether it would be popular or not. So I
was having dinner with Michael Page, which is the person
who created the Bisexual Pride flag, and he said that,
(05:34):
you know, the trans community could use a flag too,
and we talked about it, and he said the best
thing is to keep it simple because the least amount
of stitches, the chiefer it is to buy, and chiefers
sell because back then they weren't silk screening flags.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Back then, they were stitching the individual yeah colors together.
Speaker 1 (05:55):
And so about two weeks later, I woke up one
morning and the image of the flag came into my
mind and I got up and drew it out. It
looked really good, and I contacted the people that made
the Bisexual Pride flag and they sent me swatches and
I picked the swatches out and a week later I
(06:16):
had the first trans flag. Everybody was asking what's that?
What's that? And I had to explain to him just
a transgender flag. And the colors mean this light blue
is traditional color for baby boys, and pink traditional color
for baby girls. And the white in the middle is
for those that are non binary or have no gender.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
At all, gender non conforming. Yes, yeah, but.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
See some of those terms were invented back then, right. Yeah.
Along the way, I had to change the meaning of
the white stripe to be with whatever is the current today.
Speaker 2 (06:51):
Yeah, because now there's its own non binary flag, yes,
which I guess there wasn't when you made the trans
flag exactly.
Speaker 1 (06:58):
Yeah, there's like ninety different flags that represent people in
this community.
Speaker 2 (07:03):
How do you feel about the significance of flags for
a movement or for getting a point across? Is there importance?
Speaker 1 (07:13):
There? There is importance. And I'm also on the board
of the Gilbert Baker Foundation. Gilbert Baker was the one
that created the rainbow flag, and this board is to
help to promote all the different flags and to promote
the rainbow flag. And I feel that it's a very
(07:34):
important organization because it helps to fight the hatred towards
LGBTQ people, and the flags are some of the things
that help us to show our loyalty in ourselves.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
When you debut the flag in two thousand and people
were very curious about it. It caught on quickly. How
do you feel like we have progressed or even maybe
regressed as a community since then, and since everyone's like
adopted it, how do you feel like things have changed
since then?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Well, I didn't realize that it was being popular until
twenty thirteen when I started looking at pride across the
world and I started seeing the trans flag in places
and colors, the trans colors, and I'm going, WHOA, this
(08:29):
is interesting. I mean, it really surprised me. And now
I've seen the flag on every continent, including Antarctica. The
only two flags that have been shown on Antarctica are
the Rainbow flag in the trans flag.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
Seeing her flag's colors in every country, on every continent
even proved that what it stands for is in fact
present in culture is worldwide. Monica knew that what she
had created was a significant symbol of a moon men
and had earned its place in the history of human civilization.
Speaker 1 (09:04):
So in twenty thirteen, I said, oh, no, I have
the original flag. I need to find a place to
put it so it'd be safe. So I decided to
start at the top and contacted the Smithsonian. And the
Smithsonian was just starting to collect LGBTQ items, and so
(09:26):
they were interested in this and I had to tell
them all about the flag and all about me, because
they don't just want you to give something. They want
to know about the people that donate. They want to
know the history of this person. And they do bring
it out occasionally for various reasons to show.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
For maybe like trendsday of visibility, or remember.
Speaker 1 (09:48):
Very yeah, various things of that nature. And August nineteenth
is the day I created the flag, and was actually
the day I ended up donating it to the Smithsonian
fifteen years later. Oh that's a transgender flag day.
Speaker 2 (10:03):
That's awesome. August nineteenth.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
August nineteenth.
Speaker 2 (10:06):
I wanted to ask you about another flag that is
a newer flag.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:14):
We're going to take a quick break here, listeners. When
we come back, Monica and I talk more flags and
we're back. I wanted to ask you about another flag
(10:37):
that is a newer flag.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I know which one you're gonna be talking about.
Speaker 2 (10:41):
Is it okay if we talk about the progress flag?
Speaker 1 (10:44):
Yes, And you'll get negative responses from me, that's.
Speaker 2 (10:48):
Fine because I personally don't love the Progress flag myself,
and I want you to share your honest opinions. About
it because I have some opinions about it too.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
Well, there's more than just opinions. There's the fact that
the guy that created it, Dan Quaysar, and what he
did was he made it a copyrighted flag, so people
have to pay more for the flag, more for the design.
Companies can't use it without you know, paying money for it,
(11:18):
and every other flag that's out there is was given
to the.
Speaker 2 (11:22):
Community as free to use public domain.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Second of all, he didn't even have the courtesy of
contacting me and said I want to use your colors
in my flag. I probably would have been okay by
if he asked, but he never did. And now he's
making money off of something that I.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
Created, right, which you never even sought to see a
profit on to begin with.
Speaker 1 (11:50):
And so this is not a we're we're not very
happy that people those of us at the Guilt Baker Foundation,
though officially they don't see anything about it, but it's
definitely something that everybody is upset about.
Speaker 2 (12:11):
Yeah, and I think even I'm a younger trans person,
I'm a younger LGBT person, and I've seen the introduction
of the progress flag, and initially I wanted to be
excited about it. But once you learn about the fact
that it's copyrighted and you have to license it for
a fee and all of that, that is very It's
kind of the antithesis of what we want as a community, right.
(12:34):
And then another thing too that I feel like is
interesting about the progress flag is I feel like it
and I don't know if you feel this way, but
I feel like the rainbow flag was already including of everyone.
Speaker 1 (12:47):
Yeah. Well, see, now there's something that I have an
analogy for that. I look at the rainbow flag like
the American flag, and all the other flags in the
community are like state flags. So the rainbow flag includes everybody,
and then you have your own individual flag for your
(13:08):
own personal right.
Speaker 2 (13:10):
So it's almost like it was an unnecessary addition.
Speaker 1 (13:13):
Yeah, he was trying to be inclusive and and he
ended up with something that looked a little ugly.
Speaker 2 (13:21):
The other thing about it too, is that it was
updated within the same year to include the intersex flag,
and then it was updated again to include the Umbrella
for sex Workers on the flag. And in my opinion,
and I think a lot of young people that are
watching this happen, it's almost like it's never going to
be inclusive enough, Like we're just going to continue to
(13:44):
update that Progress flag until it looks like a quilt
of some kind, you know, yeah, does it feel that way?
Speaker 1 (13:50):
Or I just like I didn't like it originally and
I'm not going to like anything that's updated. So you know,
it's a to me, it would be very useless to
use it, And you know, stick with the rainbow flag.
And if you know, you want to show your own
(14:12):
colors or bisexual flag or trans flag, whatever those are,
it's important too.
Speaker 2 (14:22):
The spirit that lies behind a symbol is important. It
is this spirit that allows the message that the symbol
represents to fully wrap its arms around a group of people.
While the Progress Flag was created with a spirit that
was about personal, notoriety and profit at the expense of
the message, it is no surprise that it ultimately failed
(14:42):
to be as inclusive as it was trying to be.
When Monica created the trans Pride Flag, she understood the
importance of the symbol's spirit and being unified by it,
and today the original Pride flag, in all its elegant simplicity,
still unites everyone under the LGBTQ plus umbrella. Do you
(15:05):
feel like the trans flag is more important than it
has ever been.
Speaker 1 (15:11):
I feel that it. Yeah, it definitely helps. I see
it at all these protests that are out there, you know,
protesting bands on gender confirming healthcare, and and now Florida
has gone to the point where they get band gender
confirming healthcare for all adults and every every trans person.
Speaker 2 (15:35):
Yeah yeah, and everyone is losing their healthcare providers in Florida.
Texas is trying to do the same thing where it's
they're making it basically untenable for doctors to perform gender
affirming care. How do you feel like, what do you
think is a way forward for us as a community
in all of this?
Speaker 1 (15:55):
Vote? Yeah, don't vote for anybody that has an R
and in front of their name, Okay, because you know
we're looking at I mean, I'll just say it. Ronda
Santis is a Nazi. Yeah, he is a full out Nazi.
He's doing things that Nazi Germany did in the thirties. Yeah,
(16:19):
banning books, and he wants to have a register of
transgender people.
Speaker 2 (16:24):
Yeah. So, which is an alarmed you know what?
Speaker 1 (16:26):
You know what that leads to?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Absolutely, Yeah, it's a it's alarming, and it's it's terrifying,
and I think in twenty twenty four, we're just going
to continue to as the presidential campaign ramps up, it's
just going to continue to be more and more difficult
for trans people. I think as these things get talked
about in the public.
Speaker 1 (16:47):
Yeah, we're even thinking of moving really out of Georgia.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
Yeah, I'm sorry to hear that. And how long have you?
How long have you lived here?
Speaker 1 (16:55):
Since two thousand and Darlene's been here most of her.
Speaker 2 (17:00):
Yeah, because this is where you were raised, right, Yeah. Wow.
Darlene Wagner is Monica's wife, and as we're both lifelong
george Natives, I felt connected to her. Here's Darlene.
Speaker 3 (17:12):
I have lived in Georgia for an overwhelming majority of
my years. I spent a little time in the Western
States between undergrad and graduate school, and I started Georgia
Tech just down the street from here graduate school in
(17:37):
two thousand and four, and in twenty twelve, I graduated
from Georgia Tech with a PhD in bioinformatics. Bioinformatics is
basically computer science applied to biology and DNA sequencing. Tell
her when you transition started your transition. I'll get around that.
(18:03):
At present, I work at the Centers for Disease Control
and Prevention doing bioinformatics. It can get a little boring
for me because I'm a real people person. I'm not
your stereotypical introverted scientist.
Speaker 2 (18:18):
Type computer person. Yeah. I was reading about you and
I saw that on your blog I think you had
from like years ago, you said that the two books
that you live your life by are the Bible and Nature.
Do you care to talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 3 (18:33):
Yes, Well, I have really been into nature in the
outdoors since I was very young. Everything dealing with all
the dysphoria I had growing up, Being out in nature
had a healing effect on me, so I tried to
spend as much time as much of my free time
(18:54):
camping out and hiking as possible, especially in my late
teens early twenties. One time, when I was nineteen years old,
I went on a ninety five mile hike to five
days between undergrad where I went to University of North
(19:16):
Georgia for undergrad got a degree in both biology and mathematics.
After that, I worked in Arizona, Texas, Montana, and Alaska
in wildlife management type work, and then I decided that
I'm more of a people person than an animal person.
So I came back to Georgia to do grad school.
(19:40):
But as for the Bible, it has unfortunately been a
fraud relationship between the LGBT community and the Christian Bible.
I'm going to come out and say that the Bible
is used to beat up on us routinely. However, the
(20:04):
people who use the Bible and misuse the Bible to
beat up on us don't actually know what it says
the Bible. I have read all of it through and
through multiple versions. There's the old King James version, which
the people who hate on us like to use, but
(20:25):
there's also the new Revised Standard Version, the New International Version,
and my favorite version, the Young's Literal Translation, which are
much more accurate in light of the ancient scrolls on
which the Bible is based. The ancient texts of the
(20:51):
Bible never at any point mentioned. The concept of eternal
damnation to hell fire was a concept that was made
up out of thin air by the Catholic Church and
picked up and expanded upon by fundamentalist Protestant churches. They
(21:13):
are perpetuating a false doctrine that God or whoever the
higher power ruler of the universe is condemns certain groups
of people to everlasting rejection in a place called hell.
(21:33):
That is not in the Bible. The Scripture is very liberatory,
very emancipatory, tells the good news, the good tidings of
great joy to all people. And how Christ, whom I
believe to be the Word made flesh, the Bible and
(21:55):
Jesus I think of, is practically interchangeable. They came to
seek and save. They came to save the world, and
not condemn the world, the whole world, not just a
few chosen privileged people out of the world. So to
make it simple, I want to say to all LGBT
(22:20):
people out there, all my sisters, brothers, comrades, everyone in
my community, that whoever it is your higher power, is God,
Goddess Universe. You are tenderly and amazingly loved. You are
not going to hell. No matter what the haters say.
(22:42):
The haters are wrong. They are as wrong as both
the Scripture and nature are true. You are loved by God,
and if there is a life after death, we will
all be reconciled together in the divine living in joy forever.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
It was beautiful that tiary.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
She is carried away something.
Speaker 2 (23:12):
No, that was great. That was great.
Speaker 3 (23:13):
Well, there are a few things that are worth getting
carried away on. And I also wanted to bring a
little bit of good tidings during this time of fear.
Speaker 2 (23:26):
I think we need it. Darlene, do you want to
talk a little bit about your transition story or Oh?
Speaker 3 (23:32):
Yes, As I said, I went to grad school at
Georgia Tech between two thousand and four and I graduated
in twenty twelve. I transitioned in two thousand and nine.
That was in the middle of grad school. That was
around the time I was taking my PhD qualifier exams,
and my professors were none too happy with my decision
(23:56):
to change my appearance, change my name. But I had
the deans and the college administration on my side. I
am fairly skilled at working through bureaucracies.
Speaker 2 (24:11):
Which is kind of half the battle as a transperson
is working through those bureaucracies and getting what we need.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
We must be master diplomats, master negotiators, because that is
probably our superpower. We can always put on a charm offensive.
And so two thousand and nine I transitioned or started transitioning.
It was the middle of grad school. It was rough, however,
(24:42):
I had the advantage of being a grad student. They
can't fire a graduate student. Soon afterwards, soon after starting transition,
I met Monica and it was my life has been
so much and more stable and happier since.
Speaker 2 (25:05):
So you two have been together now for how many years?
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Two thousand and nine, fourteen, fourteen?
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Wow?
Speaker 2 (25:12):
And are you married or yes? Okay? When did you
guys get married?
Speaker 3 (25:15):
Twenty sixteen?
Speaker 2 (25:17):
Wow?
Speaker 3 (25:18):
It was already legal, but a certain orange haired fellow
won the election to the White House. We were afraid
that gay marriage would be taken away, so we figured
we'd run and get married in the courthouse as soon
as we could. It's sad and scary, but it is
another one of those things that points to the strength
(25:38):
and adaptability of our community. We are more than just
bodies and minds and ideas or ideology. We are a
natural phenomenon, a force of nature, if you will. Governments
cannot stamp out a force of nature.
Speaker 2 (26:04):
Thank you, Darlene for those powerful words. We're going to
take the last break here and we'll be right back.
(26:29):
And when back, beauties, you make music for transliteration, Is
that right?
Speaker 3 (26:35):
Yes?
Speaker 1 (26:35):
Suh?
Speaker 3 (26:36):
Well, I try to. I'm very shy I'm not into
the gay bar scene. I'm not into the drag scene.
Since I think of myself as full time living as female,
it feels kind of it would feel kind of silly
to me getting all gussied up in a sequine gown
(26:57):
and then sing my folkloric, rustic type music in a glitzy,
glamorous downtown bar. It just it just aesthetically, it just
doesn't all fit together. So I really haven't really found
much of a venue in which to perform my songs.
(27:21):
I like to sing of Goddess of Nature, which is
another interesting thing about my spirituality. I used to be
Wickan because I thought, well, that's a good nature centered religion.
But then I got more into Christian and Jewish scriptures
and realized that whatever God or goddess or universe out
(27:44):
there there is accepts us all in the traditional Christian
notions of condemnation and judgment are wrong. So I had
no more excuse to turn my back on Judah Christianity.
So I went back to the tradition I was raised in,
(28:06):
with some modifications, of course, no more hell and damnation.
Speaker 2 (28:12):
And where you raised Southern Baptist.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Yes, Southern Baptist slash Methodist. As soon as I got
my driver's license, I said goodbye to my parents Southern
Baptist church and went over to the Methodist church down
the street.
Speaker 2 (28:29):
Gotcha, Yeah, it's a lot more chill there, I'm assuming,
not as a hell fire and brimstone.
Speaker 3 (28:35):
I much preferred hearing sermons about baseball than hell.
Speaker 2 (28:39):
Yeah. I grew up Catholic and that was about the same.
Speaker 1 (28:45):
I also was raised Catholic. Yeah, so I say that
I was religiously abused when I was a kid.
Speaker 2 (28:53):
Yeah, I'm traumatized by I say, I'm traumatized by religion.
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:57):
Yeah, well, we ought to have we ought to have
a trans group for recovering Catholics.
Speaker 2 (29:03):
I agree. Actually, I know a lot of recovering Catholic
trans people that have really been through the ringer in
the church. I'm always interested on the subject of spirituality
and transness because so much of religion, or mainstream religion
and people that preach it are preaching an anti trans
or an anti gay idea of their religion. But I'm
(29:26):
always delighted to see other trans people embracing their spirituality
in a new way that is accepting of their identity
because we really should. I mean, if your religion is
exclusive to certain people, is it really the kind of
church you want to be in? You know, like, if
it's telling you that these people are bad, how does
(29:46):
your church grow? Exactly? Exactly? All right, listeners, If you
enjoyed that, then please tune into part two of my
interview with Monica Helms and her wife Darlene Wagner in
your feed now, as we talk about their marriage and
their relationship as too trans woman in the sound. Beauty
(30:08):
Translated is hosted by me Carmen Laurent and produced by
Kurt Garn and Jessica Crinchich, with production assistance from Jennifer Bassett.
Special thanks to Ali Perry and Ali Cantor for their support.
Our theme song is composed by Aaron Kaufman. Beauty Translated
is proud to be part of the Outspoken network from
iHeart Podcasts. For more iHeart podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app,
(30:32):
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