July 16, 2024 • 38 mins
Jesse and Holly just have one checkpoint to go before we can officially crown Bruce Springsteen with queer icon status. Quite simply – is there a vibe? Do other queer people agree that Bruce is a queer icon? This is their last chance to collate their evidence, gather their findings, and prepare their ultimate arguments for the Panel of Queers next week.
Show notes:
Read a transcript of today’s episode
Read Alana Kumbier’s seminal zine Because the Boss Belongs to us
Read Holly Casio’s Graphic Memoir Looking for Bruce
Follow Butch Springsteen and Georgeous Michael
Read Eve Kosofsky Sedgewick - You’re So Paranoid, I Bet You Think This Introduction is About You
Our friends have released 5 absolutely STUNNING bruce covers to celebrate the series. Find them all on our Queer Springsteen playlist <3
Buy Jesse’s Gay Bruce Merch and support trans affirming surgeries and families evacuating Gaza xoxo
Credits:
Because the Boss Belongs to Us is a production of Molten Heart and iHeartPodcasts
Creator: Jesse Lawson
Hosts and Executive Producers: Jesse Lawson and Holly Casio
This episode features: Alana Kumbier, Otto Wates and Afi Yellow-Duke
Producer + Sound Designer: Jesse Lawson
Production Assistant: Tess Hazel
Mix Engineer: Michelle Macklem
Original music and theme: Talk Bazaar
Show Art: Holly Casio
Fact Checking: Serena Solin
Legal: Rowan Maron and Feil
Molten Heart Executive Producer: Jazmine (JT) Green
iHeartPodcasts Executive Producer: Lindsey Hoffman
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hi, I'm the Owaisha. You may know me as the
former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with the new
show called Praxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that
no one in your life can relate to. That's where
Praxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers
with shared experience and you'll get to ask all your questions.
We're kicking things off with a three part series on
(00:22):
the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to
Praxy wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Because.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
This is episode six of Because the Bus Belongs to Us,
a podcast where two queer nets get down to business,
assembling their final bits of evidence in the hope of
convincing other queer people that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon.
I'm Jesse and I'm Polly, and the show is almost over.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
No next episode will be our last. We'll be presenting
our findings to a panel of queer people. You get
to decide if we have enough evidence to admit Bruce
Springstea to the Queer Icon Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
At the very start of this mission, we came up
with four checklist points.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We of course smashed check this.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Point one is Bruce Camp Yes, he is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Our second check this point. Underdog status started.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Well with that escaping, that needing to get out.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
You got to go, and you'll do anything to make
sure you don't have to go back.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
That to me is the essence of an underdog.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Then it ended in a full panic about the entire
purpose of the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Sure, a lot of Bruce Brinky's lyrics make us feel seen,
but can we actually relate to him? Do we even
want to make a whole podcast series idolizing a rich, white,
straight cis man whose politics we aren't actually sure of.
But we pulled it back with checkliss point three good music.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Bruce is so much more than Bruce, and I love
thunder Road, not just because Bruce said it, because we
all get to say it to each other. Now we
just have one checklist point to go before we can
officially crown Bruce Springsteen with queer icon status. Quite simply,
(02:14):
is there a vibe? Do other queer people agree that
Bruce is a queer icon?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And we are getting nervous. Next week we'll be presenting
our evidence to an expert panel of queers, and the
fate of this very serious scientific investigation rests in their hands.
Today is our last chance to collate our evidence, gather
our findings, and prepare our ultimate argument.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
So we're looking.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Just like last bits and bobs are here. So in
classica style, we're back to basics. Sitting in my.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Bedroom, surrounded by Zeen's books and photos of Bruce. We're
having one last nerdy evidence gathering session looking through our
Bruce Springsteen ephemera.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
In episode four, we put a name to a discomfort
that we've been feeling throughout the series. There's a difference
between the radical queer email Bruce Springsteen we've created in
our heads and projected our own meanings onto, and the
very real life Bruce Springsteen walking around in New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, okay, so I'm just going to quote you to
you reading my favorite line from your graphic memoir Looking
for Bruce. So you're saying here, part of being a
Bruce fan is getting to choose which myth or version
of the truth I believe in. It's a bit like wrestling.
It's both fake and very real, but it's only fun if.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
You really believe.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I guess that's what we're going to put to the
test next week if we can get other people to
see the fun in believing too.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, it's something we touched on in episode two as well,
when we talked about Bruce's esthetics. So there's this image
of him in this book here. This is called Springsteen
Album by Album by Ryan White. It was taken for
Rolling Stone at nineteen eighty four by Aaron Rappaport. He's
got the denim, he's got double bandana, and I could
obviously read this image in a very queer way if
(04:12):
I wanted to, But I'm sure loads of people saw
this and thought he's just the ultimate American man.
Speaker 7 (04:19):
He was a version of white male, patriotic, heterosexual American
that I disidentified with.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is a Lana Coombier.
Speaker 8 (04:33):
I was born between Born to Run and Darkness on
the Edge of Town.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
For much of Alana's life, they were not a fan
of Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (04:43):
And then what happened was that I listened to Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh Nebraska, the Bruce Springsteen album that Dykes have claimed
as their.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Own, released in nineteen eighty two, The Legend Girls that
Bruce recorded the songs on a little four track in
his bedroom, just him and his guitar and his harmonica.
He originally intended to re record full versions with the
whole band, but then he decided to release them as
is because it just felt right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Lots of the songs on the album are pretty dark,
songs about unemployment, death, debt, isolation, and a whole lot
of hopelessness.
Speaker 8 (05:25):
I heard these songs about people who are having a
much more ambivalent relationship to being American, to living where
they are, to having this other level of sort of
like procurity around class and while being who are in
their white way, still subject to and worried about policing,
(05:49):
who are trying to make these decisions about what does
it mean to try to live in this place, make
a life. People who are seeking a kind of freedom
that's different than the freedom that I thought Bruce was
angling toward.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I always really trust people who say they got into
Bruce through Nebraska. I think most queers that I know
in Nebraska, for some reason, is like the album as
opposed to like the more poppy stuff, even though we
all have pop as well. I don't know what it is.
Nebraska seems to be this thing that grabs hold of people.
Speaker 8 (06:20):
It just feels so intimate to me. I was remembering
that on my dating profile I had something about being
a fan of Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen, which now I
would just change and say I'm a fan of Bruce Springsteen,
but at the time I felt it was necessary to
make that little qualification.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
That sends a very specific message.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
At the time, Alana was getting into Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen,
they were in their late twenties. They were identifying as
fem but feeling quite complicated about what that marker meant
to them.
Speaker 8 (06:56):
My performance of fem felt really uneven. FEM was really
like sparkly and glittery and polished, and my day to
day embodiment was not that in any way.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
There was some practical body stuff that was blocking Alana
from being able to fully lean into their gender expression.
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Trying to wear a dress while also trying to deal
with an insulin pump, which I wear all the time
and is just like dangling on this tube. It's hard
to figure out if you're wearing a strapless dress, which
I was doing sometimes at that time, like where is
that pump going to go? In a harness? Of course
that's the best place for it to rest while you're
(07:38):
going out you know, just kind of dealing with things
like that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Elana was also trying to work out what fem meant
to her as an identity beyond the esthetics. She had
these legendary fem community leaders to look up to, people
like Mini Briecee Pratt and Amber Holloba really.
Speaker 8 (07:56):
Like badass, engaged, sexy, tenacious fems. So I was really
appreciating the sort of ways in which people who I
knew as FEM were really embodying care and love and
community connection and solidarity, and those were all things that
(08:18):
I was also eager and trying to embody in my life.
So I had these very big shoes to fill in
my imagination of what FEM was. That was the part
where I felt like really inconsistent, not in a like
horribly deep struggle way, but I think that that was
part of what I was just puzzling through.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Probably the most famous song on Nebraska is Atlantic City.
The guy in it is in a pretty threatening situation,
tied up in gambling in crime, but in the song
he's speaking to his girlfriend. He tells her, put your
makeup on, get your hair well pretty, and meet me
tonight in Atlantic City.
Speaker 8 (09:01):
This guy knows what has gone into this beauty knows
that it's a performance, right, Like knows that you're putting
on this makeup, you're putting on these stockings, you're putting
on this dress, that idea of being this person who
is so desired and appreciated for their effort at looking
(09:22):
a certain way and embodying a certain kind of femininity.
I had never met a cis man where I felt
the feeling of that gaze the way Bruce articulates it.
But I have felt that gaze from butch lesbians and
butch people for sure. And so for me, like when
I hear Bruce singing, like, oh, this is how I feel.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
From this little moment of being seen by a line
in a Springsteen song, things really started to snowble. She
kept talking to queer fems about Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (09:54):
He kept coming up across conversations with people who did
not know each other or even know each other. We well.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
In twenty eleven, Alana published a zine Because the Boss
Belongs to Us queer femmes on Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (10:07):
The zene was very much a project of sort of
inviting and wanting to connect with people who could help
me understand how I felt about Bruce, especially because there
was this fem identification that everyone shared that it wasn't
a straightforward butch identification, and I think that was part
of the tangle that I was really interested in.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
This scene because the boss belongs to us, is our namesake.
It came out way back in twenty eleven, and both
of us lapped it up. We love it. Alana is
basically a celebrity to us.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
We are so excited to talk to you because we
are both your fan boys.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Wow, you're like one.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Of my origin story queer zine Bruce fans. And that's
the same view Hollly right.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Absolutely same for me. When I started the Me and
Bruce zine series, it was a way to try and
find other queer Bruce fans and try and connect with
that community. And instantly as soon as I did that,
everyone's like, well have you read this scene?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
This is my favorite thing about being part of the
queer Breece Springsteen fandom. As soon as you discover it exists,
you become part of this kind of underground community. People
give you zcenes, send you articles, bring into a world
of people who are as obsessed with Bruce as you Are.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And alana zine, published over ten years ago, went a
long way into creating that community.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
It was wonderful when the zine went out. People sent bootlegs,
people sent CD compilations of just the songs that they
would read as queer. Someone sent me a great flyer
from their anarchist cafe that had a stencil of Bruce
and said, the only Boss we listened to in Bruce's songs,
(11:50):
the vision isn't just of you going alone, but that
there's someone already waiting for you, someone who's ready to
go with you. That part of the dream that as
queer as we could go together, that you would not
be alone, that you would find your people. That's part
of the dream that I feel like this music embodies
for me.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Alana decided to bring all of these Queer Sprinstcene fans together.
She organized a Bruce Sprinkstcene themed cabaret night named.
Speaker 8 (12:16):
Prove It All Night Queer's Do the Boss March of
twenty eleven at Club Cafe in Boston. The acts we
had ranged from people doing readings, to burlesque, to dance,
to mandolin, go go dancing.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It feels like a very beautiful coming together of things.
This scene that you made over ten years ago brought
me in Holly into our understanding that we're part of
a community. Is part of the reason that we then
met each other and decided to make this series, which
we're naming after your scene. And it also really, if
(12:55):
we're honest with ourselves, the only reason we're making this
is so that we get to nerd out about Bruce
with other Quick fans like you.
Speaker 8 (13:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yes, it feels like extremely fun and queer that you're
like a kind of blueprint for us continuing to do
community making in this way.
Speaker 8 (13:14):
And I hope that this gives more people an invitation
to make more and more people like complicating Bruce. It
would also be great to see some critical work on
Bruce that's like, why does everyone love Bruce so much?
What's happening there? That would also be wonderful to see.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
It's funny, isn't It feels like, Yeah, queer Bruce fans
definitely definitely exist.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
And the more people you talk to, the more people tell.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
You that they like Bruce, will tell you that they've
got a friend who's great who likes Bruce, or like
put you towards.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
An article and all of these things.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yes, but it doesn't feel like, you know, if you
were like, tell me a queer icon, right, you wouldn't
say Bruce right?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Like?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
No, what is it?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Like?
Speaker 8 (13:52):
I just I think that I'm wondering if part of
it is just that others have this experience of thinking
about someone who's I don't know, this American hero in
a certain way that that's not who we tend to
identify with.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That's the challenge of what we're trying to work out.
I guess, yes, is he even okay to say that
he's a queer icon?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
You know, I'm still hung up on this question. Is
it even okay to say that this cis white, rich, straight,
ma'am is a queer icon?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I should agree.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I would really like to get to the button of
it before we have to present it to the panel
next week.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That's after the break.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about
another show you might want to listen to.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
It's called Hang Up, and it's kind of like a
queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
And seriously, it's a blast.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Has all of the drama and chaos of a queer
reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical reality tropes.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing
focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a
little clip about their current season.
Speaker 9 (15:16):
Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced.
Speaker 10 (15:19):
I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months,
but now.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
They're looking for someone special and like really hot tacks,
really hot public sex. So we set them up with
six callers to date exclusively over the phone.
Speaker 8 (15:34):
I feel like I could talk to you for hours
on hang Up.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also
a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well,
the last caller standing choose the star and go on
an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash
prize instead.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Guys, it's high drama.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons.
You might even hear a little something from her in
an upcoming up.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Said the new season has just finished, so it's perfect
time for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to
a friend or love or given queer community, probably.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
By subscribe to hang up Today on your favorite podcast.
Speaker 6 (16:12):
Platform, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs to us.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
We're still sitting in my bedroom dotting the i's and
crossing the t's before next week when we have to
convince a panel of queers of Bruce's queer icon credentials.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I know, in episode four cj Ray told us to
go on with Upenhearts and find our own joy in
meeting and Bruce Bringsteen, but I still feel a bit
like that's one thing in terms of finding joy in
my personal fandom and another to make a decision on
behalf of the whole queer community.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, if we're going to convince the panel of queers,
we need to have a proper justification for putting Bruce
on this I Compedistal. There's only one person I could
think of to help us put this question to bed.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
So on the table in front of me, I've got
my almost entire zine collection. I've also put some little
stickers to book mark the pages that I want to
talk about. I just have performance anxieties, so I need
to prep.
Speaker 8 (17:30):
So my name is.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Otto and I am drag king Georgis Michael also drag
daddy to Butch Springsteen, our very own producer of this
wonderful podcast.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
I just really wanted to fatherly advice for this one.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I was saying to my colleague today. I was like, oh,
my drag son is coming later, and then she was like,
can you have a drag son? And It's like, yes,
I physically birth my drag son. In drag you can
just give birth to children and they I'm out fully formed.
An adult.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Otto or Georges Michael is an absolute legend of the
London drag scene.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
He is as obsessed with George Michael as.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
We are with Bruce Springsteen, and he thinks loads about
queer fandom and our relationship.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
To the celebrity.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Of late, we've been feeling less confident about whether we
are in fact qualified to decide that he's a queer icon.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, we got pretty cocky to start.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
People.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
We're more examining we are on feelings. I'm a bit
uncomfortable about it having a white male millionaire on a pedestal.
His politics don't necessarily line with ours. How uncomfortable does
that make us feel should we be elevating or the
queers rather than elevating?
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Will you say, is it wrong to kind of elevate
this person? But I think that the project of the
queer icon is also a part of self elevation. You know,
it's like community. Of course, there's like contributions to like
his bottom line in terms of record sales and people
going to his concerts. But the main point of fandom
is for people to get their nourishment, isn't it. We're
(19:13):
elevating ourselves through it.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (19:16):
We're getting?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Are you saying that the truths others themselves?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Maybe this one that's got a bit of a harsh edge.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
This is a little recording I made the first time
Otter came to mind to teach me how to do
drag king.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Makeup great, you're just looking great.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Me and Otto became friends through drag. We met through
another friend from the scene when I was first starting
to develop my but Springsteen character, And now some could say,
thanks to my love of Bruce prestein we're drag family.
(19:59):
So this is one of Utter's zines that he gave
me for my birthday last year. It's called careless whisper
Confessions of a drag king. I'm just gonna read a
bit from this passage in there about fandom. It's actually
a Jack Healbuson queer art of failure reference. There is
a phenomenon I like to call the queer ut of fandom,
reffing Ugh the queer ut of failure by Jack Halbuston.
(20:21):
This is the near devotional further with which we revere.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Our cultural icons as queers. These icons don't need to
be gay themselves, think Madonna, Elvis, Bruce Springsteen, though they
sometimes are in the case of George, but either way
they come to mean something particular in the ways in
which queers fan them, and that is to fan as
a verb. See the dance floor of a queer party
when anything by Robin starts to play, or the Internet
(20:44):
and lesbian meme culture since twenty nineteen. Perhaps it's because
as a community we have historically had to speak in
codes for safety, so cultural figures become a kind of proxy,
a way of recognizing ourselves and each other. This also
plays out in drag, which, like zene memes and dance flaws,
can be a kind of fandom. You see it in
the recurring characters who get impersonated at drag Nights. I'm
(21:07):
not the only George Michael, and I've also seen many
of Freddie Mercury and a Prince, the artists who hold
a special place in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I love this idea of thinking about too fam as
a verb. It makes it feel more active and places
the agency with the fans.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Some of the references Otto used to Robert on the
dance Floor lesbian mean culture reminded me of something tams
In from Unskinny Bop said last episode. Potentially one of
the reasons our experience of finding other queer Bruce Springsteen
fans has felt kind of underground is because the queering
of male celebrities by Dyke's trans masks in their powers
is a more recent phenomenon. Is there a specific way
(21:50):
our little sub sections of the queer community do fandom
that's different to the people who lifted the likes of
Madonna or Brittany to their queer eye com pedestals.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Someone did once come to my apartment said that they
didn't like Bruce that I joked that they had to leave.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
This is afy.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
I'm afi yellow Duke. I live in Brooklyn, New York,
and I'm a queer Bruce brincetit. I feel like I
laughed saying that, because it feels like a funny thing
to slap as a label on myself. I don't think
it's solf is part of like a larger fandom or
anything like that, which is maybe why I'm sort of
like it's funny to identify myself that way.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
After he grew up between New York and New Jersey.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
There's this bucket of like Bruce as this person with
a complicated relationship to where he's from. I mean, obviously,
like in real life, he still lives in New Jersey.
He's very wealthy and successful. It's probably all fine, but
I do think there's a way where, like so much
of his music is about loving a place and not
necessarily feeling part of it, or loving a place and
(22:50):
also knowing you have to leave at some point.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
And I think that's a.
Speaker 10 (22:52):
Very queer relationship to home. And I think that's definitely
a thing that feels relatable to me.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
As AFI grew up their taste in Springsteen songs, grew
with them from summers in New Jersey as a kid.
Speaker 10 (23:07):
You're on the board walk, you're at the beach, you're
like doing your little activities. One of his hits is
usually playing in the background somewhere, and I feel like
it tends towards the more like poppy or stuff like
dancing in the dark, like all the like big hits
are the ones that I feel like I can think
of as like these are like the childhood songs.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
And then as a teenager, I.
Speaker 10 (23:28):
Have one memory of like watching the Cheffer than the
Rest video and I was like particularly sad obviously and
being like, oh, like this is about being afraid of
love and also like being willing to try again in
a way that I thought was really poignant and beautiful. Later,
as an adult, I really moved towards Nebraska Tunnel of Love.
(23:49):
Obviously still in the Cynthia eighties era, but we're still
like moving a little. Like his sound is maturing. I'm maturing,
I guess.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And this pattern of Bruce kind of soundtracking AFI's emotions,
his sound maturing alongside her continues even today.
Speaker 10 (24:06):
I saw him for the very first time live in
last September. I was very struck by like how like
emotionally vulnerable he was. I mean, you know, now he's
in his seventies, he's very much thinking about the end
of his life. He's like very much talking about like
how all of his friends are dead, like everyone he
started performing with when he was a teenager, Like they're
(24:27):
all dead now and he's mostly the one who's left
and successful. That vulnerability I was sort of comforted by.
It was a little like WHOA, we're here and he's
talking about dying. And also like, WHOA, we're here and
he's talking about dying. That's like really cool and special.
I'm not at that life stage, but I'm thinking about
getting older trying to figure out some of those things.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
It's interesting hearing Afy talk about how they kind of
grew up with brace, especially because often in straight world
upside so fandom itself is seen as this kind of
childish thing. Almost that's next.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
We're back because thinking about the way queers do fandom
after Yellow Duke.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Had this beautiful experience of different Bruce Songs soundtrack in
their life growing up, which got us thinking about the
way the age and maturity play out in narratives of fandom.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
My Drag Dad, Autoweights, or George's Michael thinks a lot about.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
This fandom is associated quite heavily with adolescents. There's something
that feels quite queer about that obsessional yeah, over extending.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, there is this idea I think you mentioned earlier
about fandom is a teenage thing. It's a young thing
that you grow out of. So as adults who still
really are obsessed with stuff, yeah, or we kind of should.
We're grown up by now and be more adult in
what we do. And there's also an element of gender
as well, Like there's this idea that if you're a
fan for usually a girl, you're usually very like a
(26:08):
passive consumer and it's very silly, frivolous thing to do,
as opposed to men who like football, which is a
real fandom.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, but how how do queers.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
The fantom differently?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
I mean, I think there's something about the intensity of
the fandom. For me, I think we do fandom with love.
I don't see this harsh edge that you get at
the football match. I kind of want to say this
without like doing a dirty on football, because I don't.
People have what they have and I'm happy for people
to have the things that make them happy, and I
think that that's probably the case with a lot of
(26:41):
straight culture is that it's built on this premise of competition. Now,
as I say that, I'm just thinking about like drag
and competitions all of that. But then I think it
stems back to like the Balls in like New York,
where the whole thing was a competition, but it was
a satire on the competition of capitalism that we have
every day, because it was like, yeah, I could win
(27:02):
this thing. If homophobia didn't exist, I could be executive realness,
I could like own my own company. The root of
it is it's coming from a place of love.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
I feel like you maybe hit the name on the head, Holly,
when you were saying that, Like when you're describing fandom
as something which people think about as childish and something
that you grow out of that is like an inherently
queer experience.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Like right now, so I'm.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Thirty one, and what I want, which is like communal
living and like other things like that are seen by
some parts of straight society as childish.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Right, Like people talk.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Loads at being like and what you're going to do
in your next stage of life, like the kind of
exactly yeah, yeah, and like it's all pointing towards heteronomyas
blah blah, et cetera. And I wonder whether that's like
the inherent queenness of fandom is like it's this really
fun thing that other people think like having that crazy obsession. Yeah,
people think of that as this like and it's actually
infantilizing thing, indulging in yourself.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Yeah, you're indulging a thing, but you're.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Also spending time on yourself and the things that you
really love. Not many people get to do that.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
I think it's also relational, and I think maybe because
in queer communities we don't have as much this idea
of like the heteronormative nuclear family unit, and we've had
to do things like chosen family that also includes you know,
chosen icons and aesthetics that we draw from. It's like
it's a relationship that you have with this, and I
(28:26):
think that queers are really good at relationships. And the
ways that we love our friends is similar to the
ways that we love our icons. That desire to kind
of hold each other up as opposed to a desire
to put each other down, which I think is much
more prevalent in straight culture because we already have failed
because of the queer art of failure. We're already failing
against those modes, so therefore we find our own ways
(28:49):
to navigate. But we're also pushed into that space, so
it's both coming from within and coming from without. We're
seen as being perpetual children. Also, because we're playful and
creative and ingenious, we also make that space for ourselves.
Fandom is a wonderful way to play this idea of
playing with the different motifs, the different symbols, playing with
(29:15):
the music, reading things into it. Where it may may
or may not be, it doesn't really matter because it's
fun and sharing that and creating culture.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Qui is also really good at creating culture. This is
definitely something we can relate to. I don't care if
Bruce actually chose a gender neutral name on purpose for.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Bobby g Yeah or Backstreets Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
The thing I care about is that I have chosen
to read a queer love story into those lyrics. It's
not about Bruce. It's about me creating my own queer
signified treasure hunt.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
This is something Happy talks about too. When they went
to see Bruce Bringsteen live last year, there was this
one moment.
Speaker 10 (29:52):
Born until Brene came out in the iron Core. We
had been like trying to figure out when it was
going to happen, Like it's going to happen? When is
he doing boring to Ren and friends? Aren't the concert
with like screamed this scream that truly to this day
I think about because it was just like I've never
heard him scream like that before, and it was like beautiful,
and we're all we're all jumping along screaming, and we're
just like, yeah, like tramps like us, Like tramps like us,
(30:13):
Like that's a different those are different traps for like
you all.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, the amount of times I've cried a breastcake because
of queer meaning and then turned and seen a man
cry next to me and thought, wait, what are you
crying about?
Speaker 10 (30:30):
And I was thinking about these sort of like American
rights that like for me is like a queer person
and a black person don't feel accessible. There's a way
in which you can still find a place. Not that
I like deeply long for a certain type of American life,
but I do think there's a way where there's like
a sliver of that that I could access through being
(30:51):
a Bruce fan. Not that I'm like a raging patriot
either like to be very clear, like that's not what
I'm trying to say, But like I do think there's
a way where like, oh, like it doesn't have to
look a certain way. That I think is what maybe
past versions of myself were trying to work out what
he means in this like American icon way. Even though
his music is like critiquing the struggle that is the
(31:13):
why of the American dream. I mean, he's also very
much a symbol of that, Like he did the thing,
like he succeeded. I think that's part of what is
still I think kind of complicated. I am engaging with
his music because I see queer signifiers in it, you know.
I mean he's describing like straight relationships and his more
(31:35):
like romantic songs, and like I don't necessarily have to
be listening to them and being like I'm assuming the
character of a straight man to like relate to this.
It doesn't feel like work to have to like readjust
as I'm listening. We're writing ourselves in, I think, and
that can be really nice. It sometimes it feels very
(31:56):
silly to be like zooming out of this conversation line
in my brain, being like I am doing all this
to talk about this like straight man, But it does
feel sort of like there is an importance to people
to be able to feel we can be reflected back
in some way.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, it's so interesting because sometimes I think about that
in terms of like a scarcity model of like, for
so long queer people were so kind of like starffed
of icons and role models and public figures and older
figures for loads of different, you know, really difficult reasons.
And so sometimes I'm like, it's the queer trait that
we kind of have to find ourselves in people that
(32:31):
we're not relatable to because we didn't have anything else.
But I like the way that you talked about it
is kind of the opposite of that of being like
we're just really good at it, like we just make
things about us.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Yeah, we really just extremely.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Nur Disclaiming and reclaiming molding a culture to fit ourselves
is something Otto's really interested in too.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
I read this essay. It was by the godmother of
queer theory, Kasofski Sedgwick. Also, I should say the title
of this essay, which is You're so paranoid. I bet
you think this essay is about.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You, Eve Kasofski centric says that often people with marginalized
identities consume culture in a kind of suspicious way, automatically
assuming it is not for people like them, or even
that it is actively harmful to their community.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
You know, nothing's going to surprise me, because I already
know everything is fucked. It's kind of how I would
say it.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
But then she describes an alternative, which she calls reparative reading,
and she says.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
What happens when we looked at the ways in which
people and communities manage to extract sustenance from the objects
of culture, films, books, traditions, even a culture who is
a vowed desire has often been not to sustain them,
which I think is something that really resonates with me
as a person living in a culture that is like
really really out to get you, especially growing up on
(33:58):
the section twenty eight, but now also because it's a
really hostile time and we're seeing this really repressive turn,
it's very easy to read things, not in a paranoid way,
but in a way that like it is really out
to get you, Like it's not a fantasy, it's it's real.
But actually, I guess reading with a way to heel
yourself through your narratives that you're finding becomes a way
(34:21):
to take that culture just fucking love it anyway, and
to find yourself there and to find nourishment despite what
is ostensibly trying to hold you out.
Speaker 10 (34:33):
It's not like hugely important in the grand scheme of
things that like queer people can like see themselves in
these like iconic straight figures like Bruce or Taylor Swift
or Beyonce or whatever like.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
But I do think.
Speaker 10 (34:48):
There's a way where it's still important for us to
be able to like stake a flag down, like we're
here and we feel a relationship to this that is
important to people.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
That's the power of fandom is it's like I'm gonna
fuck I can love you. It's trying to repair and
trying to heal and finding that strength within ourselves.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
I love this.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I love the idea of knowing things about to get you,
but that making it even more powerful when we make
the active decision to claim it for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I love the pure Sassin saying you're not for me,
but I'm going to fucking love you anyway.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Holly Jesse, our scientific journey is almost complete. We're just
putting the finishing touches in our sea of evidence, giving
a final look through lyrics, reading through fan testimonies, and
spending as much time as science requires to image search.
Bruce lesbian Jacket and Bruce put lag alote, of course,
(35:53):
but will there's be enough for our final point on
our checklist?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Well, I think I found the perfect quote, and I
feel like it speaks to what Afi and Otto were
talking about. So this is from a chapter called Fandom
as Pathology the Consequences of Characterization by Jerlie Jensen, and
it's from the book The Adoring Audience, Fan Culture and
Popular Media by Lisa A.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Lewis.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
So Julie Jensen writes fandom should be explored in relation
to the larger question of what it means to desire, cherish, seek, long, admire, envy, celebrate, protect,
and ally with others. Fandom is an aspect of how
we make sense of the world. So, in other words,
we are perfect and actually we are doing fandom exactly right.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Yes, yeah, I smatching this.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
We're using fandom to make sense of our dystopian landscapes
while also finding ourselves and others along the way. I
feel ready to face the panel. We've proved that Bruce
Bingstein is camp.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
We find our struggles reflected in Bruce's music at the
very least, and.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
We have some thoughts and feelings about queering Bruce Springsteen
as a project that ultimate that helps us find meaning
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Which we and many others have done through dancing, crying,
and fucking to his music.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Will all this be enough to convince a panel of
queer experts who could not give less of a shit
about Bruce Springsteen that he is, in fact the queer icon.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's next episode, Because the Bass Belongs to Us is
a production of malten Hart and iHeart Podcasts were hosted
by Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
This series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and
created by Jesse Lawson.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,
with production assistants by Molly Nugents and Tess Hazel. Michelle
mackclum is our mix engineer.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at
Talk ba z aar Underscore. Our show art was designed
and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c Asio.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
In fact Check in by Serena Serlin. Legal service is
provided by Rowan, Moron and File.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Green.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Our executive producer from iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
A huge thank you and shout out to Lauren Purcell
for all of her support.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning
Bruce covers to celebrate the series. There's a link in
our show notes for the Queer Springsteen playlist.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Listen there. Don't forget to review the show on our
podcast platform.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And tell your friends to listen. It makes a huge
difference because the bust, the bust, the burst
Hi, I'm the Owaisha. You may know me as the
former host of Visibilia. Well, I'm back with the new
show called Praxy. It's about the niche emotional questions that
no one in your life can relate to. That's where
Praxy comes in. I'll connect you to researchers and strangers
with shared experience and you'll get to ask all your questions.
We're kicking things off with a three part series on
(00:22):
the emotional and mental health toll of layoffs. Subscribe to
Praxy wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 2 (00:30):
Because.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
This is episode six of Because the Bus Belongs to Us,
a podcast where two queer nets get down to business,
assembling their final bits of evidence in the hope of
convincing other queer people that Bruce Springsteen is a queer icon.
I'm Jesse and I'm Polly, and the show is almost over.
Speaker 2 (00:49):
No next episode will be our last. We'll be presenting
our findings to a panel of queer people. You get
to decide if we have enough evidence to admit Bruce
Springstea to the Queer Icon Hall of Fame.
Speaker 3 (01:07):
At the very start of this mission, we came up
with four checklist points.
Speaker 2 (01:12):
We of course smashed check this.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
Point one is Bruce Camp Yes, he is.
Speaker 2 (01:19):
Our second check this point. Underdog status started.
Speaker 4 (01:22):
Well with that escaping, that needing to get out.
Speaker 5 (01:25):
You got to go, and you'll do anything to make
sure you don't have to go back.
Speaker 4 (01:28):
That to me is the essence of an underdog.
Speaker 3 (01:32):
Then it ended in a full panic about the entire
purpose of the show.
Speaker 2 (01:36):
Sure, a lot of Bruce Brinky's lyrics make us feel seen,
but can we actually relate to him? Do we even
want to make a whole podcast series idolizing a rich, white,
straight cis man whose politics we aren't actually sure of.
But we pulled it back with checkliss point three good music.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
Bruce is so much more than Bruce, and I love
thunder Road, not just because Bruce said it, because we
all get to say it to each other. Now we
just have one checklist point to go before we can
officially crown Bruce Springsteen with queer icon status. Quite simply,
(02:14):
is there a vibe? Do other queer people agree that
Bruce is a queer icon?
Speaker 2 (02:19):
And we are getting nervous. Next week we'll be presenting
our evidence to an expert panel of queers, and the
fate of this very serious scientific investigation rests in their hands.
Today is our last chance to collate our evidence, gather
our findings, and prepare our ultimate argument.
Speaker 6 (02:38):
So we're looking.
Speaker 4 (02:41):
Just like last bits and bobs are here. So in
classica style, we're back to basics. Sitting in my.
Speaker 3 (02:48):
Bedroom, surrounded by Zeen's books and photos of Bruce. We're
having one last nerdy evidence gathering session looking through our
Bruce Springsteen ephemera.
Speaker 2 (03:03):
In episode four, we put a name to a discomfort
that we've been feeling throughout the series. There's a difference
between the radical queer email Bruce Springsteen we've created in
our heads and projected our own meanings onto, and the
very real life Bruce Springsteen walking around in New Jersey.
Speaker 3 (03:19):
Yeah, okay, so I'm just going to quote you to
you reading my favorite line from your graphic memoir Looking
for Bruce. So you're saying here, part of being a
Bruce fan is getting to choose which myth or version
of the truth I believe in. It's a bit like wrestling.
It's both fake and very real, but it's only fun if.
Speaker 4 (03:39):
You really believe.
Speaker 3 (03:42):
I guess that's what we're going to put to the
test next week if we can get other people to
see the fun in believing too.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, it's something we touched on in episode two as well,
when we talked about Bruce's esthetics. So there's this image
of him in this book here. This is called Springsteen
Album by Album by Ryan White. It was taken for
Rolling Stone at nineteen eighty four by Aaron Rappaport. He's
got the denim, he's got double bandana, and I could
obviously read this image in a very queer way if
(04:12):
I wanted to, But I'm sure loads of people saw
this and thought he's just the ultimate American man.
Speaker 7 (04:19):
He was a version of white male, patriotic, heterosexual American
that I disidentified with.
Speaker 2 (04:31):
This is a Lana Coombier.
Speaker 8 (04:33):
I was born between Born to Run and Darkness on
the Edge of Town.
Speaker 2 (04:40):
For much of Alana's life, they were not a fan
of Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (04:43):
And then what happened was that I listened to Nebraska.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
Oh Nebraska, the Bruce Springsteen album that Dykes have claimed
as their.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Own, released in nineteen eighty two, The Legend Girls that
Bruce recorded the songs on a little four track in
his bedroom, just him and his guitar and his harmonica.
He originally intended to re record full versions with the
whole band, but then he decided to release them as
is because it just felt right.
Speaker 3 (05:14):
Lots of the songs on the album are pretty dark,
songs about unemployment, death, debt, isolation, and a whole lot
of hopelessness.
Speaker 8 (05:25):
I heard these songs about people who are having a
much more ambivalent relationship to being American, to living where
they are, to having this other level of sort of
like procurity around class and while being who are in
their white way, still subject to and worried about policing,
(05:49):
who are trying to make these decisions about what does
it mean to try to live in this place, make
a life. People who are seeking a kind of freedom
that's different than the freedom that I thought Bruce was
angling toward.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
I always really trust people who say they got into
Bruce through Nebraska. I think most queers that I know
in Nebraska, for some reason, is like the album as
opposed to like the more poppy stuff, even though we
all have pop as well. I don't know what it is.
Nebraska seems to be this thing that grabs hold of people.
Speaker 8 (06:20):
It just feels so intimate to me. I was remembering
that on my dating profile I had something about being
a fan of Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen, which now I
would just change and say I'm a fan of Bruce Springsteen,
but at the time I felt it was necessary to
make that little qualification.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
That sends a very specific message.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
At the time, Alana was getting into Nebraska era Bruce Springsteen,
they were in their late twenties. They were identifying as
fem but feeling quite complicated about what that marker meant
to them.
Speaker 8 (06:56):
My performance of fem felt really uneven. FEM was really
like sparkly and glittery and polished, and my day to
day embodiment was not that in any way.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
There was some practical body stuff that was blocking Alana
from being able to fully lean into their gender expression.
Speaker 8 (07:18):
Trying to wear a dress while also trying to deal
with an insulin pump, which I wear all the time
and is just like dangling on this tube. It's hard
to figure out if you're wearing a strapless dress, which
I was doing sometimes at that time, like where is
that pump going to go? In a harness? Of course
that's the best place for it to rest while you're
(07:38):
going out you know, just kind of dealing with things
like that.
Speaker 3 (07:44):
Elana was also trying to work out what fem meant
to her as an identity beyond the esthetics. She had
these legendary fem community leaders to look up to, people
like Mini Briecee Pratt and Amber Holloba really.
Speaker 8 (07:56):
Like badass, engaged, sexy, tenacious fems. So I was really
appreciating the sort of ways in which people who I
knew as FEM were really embodying care and love and
community connection and solidarity, and those were all things that
(08:18):
I was also eager and trying to embody in my life.
So I had these very big shoes to fill in
my imagination of what FEM was. That was the part
where I felt like really inconsistent, not in a like
horribly deep struggle way, but I think that that was
part of what I was just puzzling through.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Probably the most famous song on Nebraska is Atlantic City.
The guy in it is in a pretty threatening situation,
tied up in gambling in crime, but in the song
he's speaking to his girlfriend. He tells her, put your
makeup on, get your hair well pretty, and meet me
tonight in Atlantic City.
Speaker 8 (09:01):
This guy knows what has gone into this beauty knows
that it's a performance, right, Like knows that you're putting
on this makeup, you're putting on these stockings, you're putting
on this dress, that idea of being this person who
is so desired and appreciated for their effort at looking
(09:22):
a certain way and embodying a certain kind of femininity.
I had never met a cis man where I felt
the feeling of that gaze the way Bruce articulates it.
But I have felt that gaze from butch lesbians and
butch people for sure. And so for me, like when
I hear Bruce singing, like, oh, this is how I feel.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
From this little moment of being seen by a line
in a Springsteen song, things really started to snowble. She
kept talking to queer fems about Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (09:54):
He kept coming up across conversations with people who did
not know each other or even know each other. We well.
Speaker 2 (10:00):
In twenty eleven, Alana published a zine Because the Boss
Belongs to Us queer femmes on Bruce Springsteen.
Speaker 8 (10:07):
The zene was very much a project of sort of
inviting and wanting to connect with people who could help
me understand how I felt about Bruce, especially because there
was this fem identification that everyone shared that it wasn't
a straightforward butch identification, and I think that was part
of the tangle that I was really interested in.
Speaker 2 (10:29):
This scene because the boss belongs to us, is our namesake.
It came out way back in twenty eleven, and both
of us lapped it up. We love it. Alana is
basically a celebrity to us.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
We are so excited to talk to you because we
are both your fan boys.
Speaker 4 (10:46):
Wow, you're like one.
Speaker 3 (10:48):
Of my origin story queer zine Bruce fans. And that's
the same view Hollly right.
Speaker 2 (10:54):
Absolutely same for me. When I started the Me and
Bruce zine series, it was a way to try and
find other queer Bruce fans and try and connect with
that community. And instantly as soon as I did that,
everyone's like, well have you read this scene?
Speaker 3 (11:07):
This is my favorite thing about being part of the
queer Breece Springsteen fandom. As soon as you discover it exists,
you become part of this kind of underground community. People
give you zcenes, send you articles, bring into a world
of people who are as obsessed with Bruce as you Are.
Speaker 2 (11:23):
And alana zine, published over ten years ago, went a
long way into creating that community.
Speaker 8 (11:29):
It was wonderful when the zine went out. People sent bootlegs,
people sent CD compilations of just the songs that they
would read as queer. Someone sent me a great flyer
from their anarchist cafe that had a stencil of Bruce
and said, the only Boss we listened to in Bruce's songs,
(11:50):
the vision isn't just of you going alone, but that
there's someone already waiting for you, someone who's ready to
go with you. That part of the dream that as
queer as we could go together, that you would not
be alone, that you would find your people. That's part
of the dream that I feel like this music embodies
for me.
Speaker 2 (12:09):
Alana decided to bring all of these Queer Sprinstcene fans together.
She organized a Bruce Sprinkstcene themed cabaret night named.
Speaker 8 (12:16):
Prove It All Night Queer's Do the Boss March of
twenty eleven at Club Cafe in Boston. The acts we
had ranged from people doing readings, to burlesque, to dance,
to mandolin, go go dancing.
Speaker 3 (12:34):
It feels like a very beautiful coming together of things.
This scene that you made over ten years ago brought
me in Holly into our understanding that we're part of
a community. Is part of the reason that we then
met each other and decided to make this series, which
we're naming after your scene. And it also really, if
(12:55):
we're honest with ourselves, the only reason we're making this
is so that we get to nerd out about Bruce
with other Quick fans like you.
Speaker 8 (13:01):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (13:02):
Yes, it feels like extremely fun and queer that you're
like a kind of blueprint for us continuing to do
community making in this way.
Speaker 8 (13:14):
And I hope that this gives more people an invitation
to make more and more people like complicating Bruce. It
would also be great to see some critical work on
Bruce that's like, why does everyone love Bruce so much?
What's happening there? That would also be wonderful to see.
Speaker 3 (13:31):
It's funny, isn't It feels like, Yeah, queer Bruce fans
definitely definitely exist.
Speaker 4 (13:35):
And the more people you talk to, the more people tell.
Speaker 3 (13:38):
You that they like Bruce, will tell you that they've
got a friend who's great who likes Bruce, or like
put you towards.
Speaker 4 (13:42):
An article and all of these things.
Speaker 3 (13:44):
Yes, but it doesn't feel like, you know, if you
were like, tell me a queer icon, right, you wouldn't
say Bruce right?
Speaker 1 (13:51):
Like?
Speaker 4 (13:51):
No, what is it?
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Like?
Speaker 8 (13:52):
I just I think that I'm wondering if part of
it is just that others have this experience of thinking
about someone who's I don't know, this American hero in
a certain way that that's not who we tend to
identify with.
Speaker 3 (14:08):
That's the challenge of what we're trying to work out.
I guess, yes, is he even okay to say that
he's a queer icon?
Speaker 2 (14:16):
You know, I'm still hung up on this question. Is
it even okay to say that this cis white, rich, straight,
ma'am is a queer icon?
Speaker 3 (14:26):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (14:26):
I should agree.
Speaker 3 (14:27):
I would really like to get to the button of
it before we have to present it to the panel
next week.
Speaker 2 (14:32):
That's after the break.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Hey, this is Jesse and Holly letting you know about
another show you might want to listen to.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
Did you know that Radiotopia has a reality dating podcast.
Speaker 3 (14:49):
It's called Hang Up, and it's kind of like a
queer cross between the Bachelor and Lovers Blind.
Speaker 2 (14:54):
And seriously, it's a blast.
Speaker 4 (14:56):
I'm a long term listener. I've been there from day one.
Speaker 3 (15:00):
Has all of the drama and chaos of a queer
reality show without any of the bullshit of unethical reality tropes.
Speaker 2 (15:06):
Hang Ups tagline is no Rings Attached. It's a refreshing
focus on dating and connection rather than marriage. Here's a
little clip about their current season.
Speaker 9 (15:16):
Our star TEAMO is forty one years old and recently divorced.
Speaker 10 (15:19):
I haven't been on a single date in eighteen months,
but now.
Speaker 9 (15:23):
They're looking for someone special and like really hot tacks,
really hot public sex. So we set them up with
six callers to date exclusively over the phone.
Speaker 8 (15:34):
I feel like I could talk to you for hours
on hang Up.
Speaker 2 (15:39):
You don't just get to eavesdrop on dates. There's also
a series of eliminations, and in the end there's a twist. Well,
the last caller standing choose the star and go on
an all expenses paid vacation together, or choose a cash
prize instead.
Speaker 4 (15:51):
Guys, it's high drama.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Also, it's hosted by friend of the pod, Zakia Gibbons.
You might even hear a little something from her in
an upcoming up.
Speaker 3 (16:00):
Said the new season has just finished, so it's perfect
time for binging. Ten out of ten would recommend to
a friend or love or given queer community, probably.
Speaker 2 (16:09):
By subscribe to hang up Today on your favorite podcast.
Speaker 6 (16:12):
Platform, Jesse Holly, because the bus belongs to us.
Speaker 3 (16:28):
We're still sitting in my bedroom dotting the i's and
crossing the t's before next week when we have to
convince a panel of queers of Bruce's queer icon credentials.
Speaker 2 (16:36):
I know, in episode four cj Ray told us to
go on with Upenhearts and find our own joy in
meeting and Bruce Bringsteen, but I still feel a bit
like that's one thing in terms of finding joy in
my personal fandom and another to make a decision on
behalf of the whole queer community.
Speaker 3 (16:53):
Yeah, if we're going to convince the panel of queers,
we need to have a proper justification for putting Bruce
on this I Compedistal. There's only one person I could
think of to help us put this question to bed.
Speaker 5 (17:09):
So on the table in front of me, I've got
my almost entire zine collection. I've also put some little
stickers to book mark the pages that I want to
talk about. I just have performance anxieties, so I need
to prep.
Speaker 8 (17:30):
So my name is.
Speaker 5 (17:30):
Otto and I am drag king Georgis Michael also drag
daddy to Butch Springsteen, our very own producer of this
wonderful podcast.
Speaker 4 (17:43):
I just really wanted to fatherly advice for this one.
Speaker 5 (17:46):
I was saying to my colleague today. I was like, oh,
my drag son is coming later, and then she was like,
can you have a drag son? And It's like, yes,
I physically birth my drag son. In drag you can
just give birth to children and they I'm out fully formed.
An adult.
Speaker 3 (18:06):
Otto or Georges Michael is an absolute legend of the
London drag scene.
Speaker 4 (18:11):
He is as obsessed with George Michael as.
Speaker 3 (18:14):
We are with Bruce Springsteen, and he thinks loads about
queer fandom and our relationship.
Speaker 4 (18:19):
To the celebrity.
Speaker 3 (18:23):
Of late, we've been feeling less confident about whether we
are in fact qualified to decide that he's a queer icon.
Speaker 2 (18:29):
Yeah, we got pretty cocky to start.
Speaker 3 (18:34):
People.
Speaker 2 (18:36):
We're more examining we are on feelings. I'm a bit
uncomfortable about it having a white male millionaire on a pedestal.
His politics don't necessarily line with ours. How uncomfortable does
that make us feel should we be elevating or the
queers rather than elevating?
Speaker 5 (18:50):
Will you say, is it wrong to kind of elevate
this person? But I think that the project of the
queer icon is also a part of self elevation. You know,
it's like community. Of course, there's like contributions to like
his bottom line in terms of record sales and people
going to his concerts. But the main point of fandom
is for people to get their nourishment, isn't it. We're
(19:13):
elevating ourselves through it.
Speaker 6 (19:14):
Do you know what I mean?
Speaker 5 (19:16):
We're getting?
Speaker 3 (19:18):
Are you saying that the truths others themselves?
Speaker 5 (19:25):
Maybe this one that's got a bit of a harsh edge.
Speaker 3 (19:29):
This is a little recording I made the first time
Otter came to mind to teach me how to do
drag king.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Makeup great, you're just looking great.
Speaker 3 (19:36):
Me and Otto became friends through drag. We met through
another friend from the scene when I was first starting
to develop my but Springsteen character, And now some could say,
thanks to my love of Bruce prestein we're drag family.
(19:59):
So this is one of Utter's zines that he gave
me for my birthday last year. It's called careless whisper
Confessions of a drag king. I'm just gonna read a
bit from this passage in there about fandom. It's actually
a Jack Healbuson queer art of failure reference. There is
a phenomenon I like to call the queer ut of fandom,
reffing Ugh the queer ut of failure by Jack Halbuston.
(20:21):
This is the near devotional further with which we revere.
Speaker 5 (20:23):
Our cultural icons as queers. These icons don't need to
be gay themselves, think Madonna, Elvis, Bruce Springsteen, though they
sometimes are in the case of George, but either way
they come to mean something particular in the ways in
which queers fan them, and that is to fan as
a verb. See the dance floor of a queer party
when anything by Robin starts to play, or the Internet
(20:44):
and lesbian meme culture since twenty nineteen. Perhaps it's because
as a community we have historically had to speak in
codes for safety, so cultural figures become a kind of proxy,
a way of recognizing ourselves and each other. This also
plays out in drag, which, like zene memes and dance flaws,
can be a kind of fandom. You see it in
the recurring characters who get impersonated at drag Nights. I'm
(21:07):
not the only George Michael, and I've also seen many
of Freddie Mercury and a Prince, the artists who hold
a special place in our hearts.
Speaker 2 (21:18):
I love this idea of thinking about too fam as
a verb. It makes it feel more active and places
the agency with the fans.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
Some of the references Otto used to Robert on the
dance Floor lesbian mean culture reminded me of something tams
In from Unskinny Bop said last episode. Potentially one of
the reasons our experience of finding other queer Bruce Springsteen
fans has felt kind of underground is because the queering
of male celebrities by Dyke's trans masks in their powers
is a more recent phenomenon. Is there a specific way
(21:50):
our little sub sections of the queer community do fandom
that's different to the people who lifted the likes of
Madonna or Brittany to their queer eye com pedestals.
Speaker 10 (22:00):
Someone did once come to my apartment said that they
didn't like Bruce that I joked that they had to leave.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
This is afy.
Speaker 10 (22:07):
I'm afi yellow Duke. I live in Brooklyn, New York,
and I'm a queer Bruce brincetit. I feel like I
laughed saying that, because it feels like a funny thing
to slap as a label on myself. I don't think
it's solf is part of like a larger fandom or
anything like that, which is maybe why I'm sort of
like it's funny to identify myself that way.
Speaker 2 (22:27):
After he grew up between New York and New Jersey.
Speaker 10 (22:29):
There's this bucket of like Bruce as this person with
a complicated relationship to where he's from. I mean, obviously,
like in real life, he still lives in New Jersey.
He's very wealthy and successful. It's probably all fine, but
I do think there's a way where, like so much
of his music is about loving a place and not
necessarily feeling part of it, or loving a place and
(22:50):
also knowing you have to leave at some point.
Speaker 4 (22:52):
And I think that's a.
Speaker 10 (22:52):
Very queer relationship to home. And I think that's definitely
a thing that feels relatable to me.
Speaker 2 (23:00):
As AFI grew up their taste in Springsteen songs, grew
with them from summers in New Jersey as a kid.
Speaker 10 (23:07):
You're on the board walk, you're at the beach, you're
like doing your little activities. One of his hits is
usually playing in the background somewhere, and I feel like
it tends towards the more like poppy or stuff like
dancing in the dark, like all the like big hits
are the ones that I feel like I can think
of as like these are like the childhood songs.
Speaker 4 (23:26):
And then as a teenager, I.
Speaker 10 (23:28):
Have one memory of like watching the Cheffer than the
Rest video and I was like particularly sad obviously and
being like, oh, like this is about being afraid of
love and also like being willing to try again in
a way that I thought was really poignant and beautiful. Later,
as an adult, I really moved towards Nebraska Tunnel of Love.
(23:49):
Obviously still in the Cynthia eighties era, but we're still
like moving a little. Like his sound is maturing. I'm maturing,
I guess.
Speaker 3 (23:58):
And this pattern of Bruce kind of soundtracking AFI's emotions,
his sound maturing alongside her continues even today.
Speaker 10 (24:06):
I saw him for the very first time live in
last September. I was very struck by like how like
emotionally vulnerable he was. I mean, you know, now he's
in his seventies, he's very much thinking about the end
of his life. He's like very much talking about like
how all of his friends are dead, like everyone he
started performing with when he was a teenager, Like they're
(24:27):
all dead now and he's mostly the one who's left
and successful. That vulnerability I was sort of comforted by.
It was a little like WHOA, we're here and he's
talking about dying. And also like, WHOA, we're here and
he's talking about dying. That's like really cool and special.
I'm not at that life stage, but I'm thinking about
getting older trying to figure out some of those things.
Speaker 2 (24:52):
It's interesting hearing Afy talk about how they kind of
grew up with brace, especially because often in straight world
upside so fandom itself is seen as this kind of
childish thing. Almost that's next.
Speaker 3 (25:17):
We're back because thinking about the way queers do fandom
after Yellow Duke.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
Had this beautiful experience of different Bruce Songs soundtrack in
their life growing up, which got us thinking about the
way the age and maturity play out in narratives of fandom.
Speaker 3 (25:32):
My Drag Dad, Autoweights, or George's Michael thinks a lot about.
Speaker 5 (25:35):
This fandom is associated quite heavily with adolescents. There's something
that feels quite queer about that obsessional yeah, over extending.
Speaker 2 (25:47):
Yeah, there is this idea I think you mentioned earlier
about fandom is a teenage thing. It's a young thing
that you grow out of. So as adults who still
really are obsessed with stuff, yeah, or we kind of should.
We're grown up by now and be more adult in
what we do. And there's also an element of gender
as well, Like there's this idea that if you're a
fan for usually a girl, you're usually very like a
(26:08):
passive consumer and it's very silly, frivolous thing to do,
as opposed to men who like football, which is a
real fandom.
Speaker 4 (26:15):
Yeah, but how how do queers.
Speaker 2 (26:19):
The fantom differently?
Speaker 5 (26:20):
I mean, I think there's something about the intensity of
the fandom. For me, I think we do fandom with love.
I don't see this harsh edge that you get at
the football match. I kind of want to say this
without like doing a dirty on football, because I don't.
People have what they have and I'm happy for people
to have the things that make them happy, and I
think that that's probably the case with a lot of
(26:41):
straight culture is that it's built on this premise of competition. Now,
as I say that, I'm just thinking about like drag
and competitions all of that. But then I think it
stems back to like the Balls in like New York,
where the whole thing was a competition, but it was
a satire on the competition of capitalism that we have
every day, because it was like, yeah, I could win
(27:02):
this thing. If homophobia didn't exist, I could be executive realness,
I could like own my own company. The root of
it is it's coming from a place of love.
Speaker 3 (27:11):
I feel like you maybe hit the name on the head, Holly,
when you were saying that, Like when you're describing fandom
as something which people think about as childish and something
that you grow out of that is like an inherently
queer experience.
Speaker 4 (27:23):
Like right now, so I'm.
Speaker 3 (27:24):
Thirty one, and what I want, which is like communal
living and like other things like that are seen by
some parts of straight society as childish.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
Right, Like people talk.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Loads at being like and what you're going to do
in your next stage of life, like the kind of
exactly yeah, yeah, and like it's all pointing towards heteronomyas
blah blah, et cetera. And I wonder whether that's like
the inherent queenness of fandom is like it's this really
fun thing that other people think like having that crazy obsession. Yeah,
people think of that as this like and it's actually
infantilizing thing, indulging in yourself.
Speaker 4 (27:57):
Yeah, you're indulging a thing, but you're.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Also spending time on yourself and the things that you
really love. Not many people get to do that.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
I think it's also relational, and I think maybe because
in queer communities we don't have as much this idea
of like the heteronormative nuclear family unit, and we've had
to do things like chosen family that also includes you know,
chosen icons and aesthetics that we draw from. It's like
it's a relationship that you have with this, and I
(28:26):
think that queers are really good at relationships. And the
ways that we love our friends is similar to the
ways that we love our icons. That desire to kind
of hold each other up as opposed to a desire
to put each other down, which I think is much
more prevalent in straight culture because we already have failed
because of the queer art of failure. We're already failing
against those modes, so therefore we find our own ways
(28:49):
to navigate. But we're also pushed into that space, so
it's both coming from within and coming from without. We're
seen as being perpetual children. Also, because we're playful and
creative and ingenious, we also make that space for ourselves.
Fandom is a wonderful way to play this idea of
playing with the different motifs, the different symbols, playing with
(29:15):
the music, reading things into it. Where it may may
or may not be, it doesn't really matter because it's
fun and sharing that and creating culture.
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Qui is also really good at creating culture. This is
definitely something we can relate to. I don't care if
Bruce actually chose a gender neutral name on purpose for.
Speaker 4 (29:33):
Bobby g Yeah or Backstreets Yeah.
Speaker 2 (29:36):
The thing I care about is that I have chosen
to read a queer love story into those lyrics. It's
not about Bruce. It's about me creating my own queer
signified treasure hunt.
Speaker 3 (29:46):
This is something Happy talks about too. When they went
to see Bruce Bringsteen live last year, there was this
one moment.
Speaker 10 (29:52):
Born until Brene came out in the iron Core. We
had been like trying to figure out when it was
going to happen, Like it's going to happen? When is
he doing boring to Ren and friends? Aren't the concert
with like screamed this scream that truly to this day
I think about because it was just like I've never
heard him scream like that before, and it was like beautiful,
and we're all we're all jumping along screaming, and we're
just like, yeah, like tramps like us, Like tramps like us,
(30:13):
Like that's a different those are different traps for like
you all.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Yes, the amount of times I've cried a breastcake because
of queer meaning and then turned and seen a man
cry next to me and thought, wait, what are you
crying about?
Speaker 10 (30:30):
And I was thinking about these sort of like American
rights that like for me is like a queer person
and a black person don't feel accessible. There's a way
in which you can still find a place. Not that
I like deeply long for a certain type of American life,
but I do think there's a way where there's like
a sliver of that that I could access through being
(30:51):
a Bruce fan. Not that I'm like a raging patriot
either like to be very clear, like that's not what
I'm trying to say, But like I do think there's
a way where like, oh, like it doesn't have to
look a certain way. That I think is what maybe
past versions of myself were trying to work out what
he means in this like American icon way. Even though
his music is like critiquing the struggle that is the
(31:13):
why of the American dream. I mean, he's also very
much a symbol of that, Like he did the thing,
like he succeeded. I think that's part of what is
still I think kind of complicated. I am engaging with
his music because I see queer signifiers in it, you know.
I mean he's describing like straight relationships and his more
(31:35):
like romantic songs, and like I don't necessarily have to
be listening to them and being like I'm assuming the
character of a straight man to like relate to this.
It doesn't feel like work to have to like readjust
as I'm listening. We're writing ourselves in, I think, and
that can be really nice. It sometimes it feels very
(31:56):
silly to be like zooming out of this conversation line
in my brain, being like I am doing all this
to talk about this like straight man, But it does
feel sort of like there is an importance to people
to be able to feel we can be reflected back
in some way.
Speaker 3 (32:09):
Yeah, it's so interesting because sometimes I think about that
in terms of like a scarcity model of like, for
so long queer people were so kind of like starffed
of icons and role models and public figures and older
figures for loads of different, you know, really difficult reasons.
And so sometimes I'm like, it's the queer trait that
we kind of have to find ourselves in people that
(32:31):
we're not relatable to because we didn't have anything else.
But I like the way that you talked about it
is kind of the opposite of that of being like
we're just really good at it, like we just make
things about us.
Speaker 8 (32:41):
Yeah, we really just extremely.
Speaker 3 (32:43):
Nur Disclaiming and reclaiming molding a culture to fit ourselves
is something Otto's really interested in too.
Speaker 5 (32:56):
I read this essay. It was by the godmother of
queer theory, Kasofski Sedgwick. Also, I should say the title
of this essay, which is You're so paranoid. I bet
you think this essay is about.
Speaker 3 (33:07):
You, Eve Kasofski centric says that often people with marginalized
identities consume culture in a kind of suspicious way, automatically
assuming it is not for people like them, or even
that it is actively harmful to their community.
Speaker 5 (33:24):
You know, nothing's going to surprise me, because I already
know everything is fucked. It's kind of how I would
say it.
Speaker 2 (33:31):
But then she describes an alternative, which she calls reparative reading,
and she says.
Speaker 5 (33:36):
What happens when we looked at the ways in which
people and communities manage to extract sustenance from the objects
of culture, films, books, traditions, even a culture who is
a vowed desire has often been not to sustain them,
which I think is something that really resonates with me
as a person living in a culture that is like
really really out to get you, especially growing up on
(33:58):
the section twenty eight, but now also because it's a
really hostile time and we're seeing this really repressive turn,
it's very easy to read things, not in a paranoid way,
but in a way that like it is really out
to get you, Like it's not a fantasy, it's it's real.
But actually, I guess reading with a way to heel
yourself through your narratives that you're finding becomes a way
(34:21):
to take that culture just fucking love it anyway, and
to find yourself there and to find nourishment despite what
is ostensibly trying to hold you out.
Speaker 10 (34:33):
It's not like hugely important in the grand scheme of
things that like queer people can like see themselves in
these like iconic straight figures like Bruce or Taylor Swift
or Beyonce or whatever like.
Speaker 4 (34:47):
But I do think.
Speaker 10 (34:48):
There's a way where it's still important for us to
be able to like stake a flag down, like we're
here and we feel a relationship to this that is
important to people.
Speaker 5 (34:57):
That's the power of fandom is it's like I'm gonna
fuck I can love you. It's trying to repair and
trying to heal and finding that strength within ourselves.
Speaker 4 (35:14):
I love this.
Speaker 3 (35:15):
I love the idea of knowing things about to get you,
but that making it even more powerful when we make
the active decision to claim it for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (35:22):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (35:23):
I love the pure Sassin saying you're not for me,
but I'm going to fucking love you anyway.
Speaker 3 (35:31):
Holly Jesse, our scientific journey is almost complete. We're just
putting the finishing touches in our sea of evidence, giving
a final look through lyrics, reading through fan testimonies, and
spending as much time as science requires to image search.
Bruce lesbian Jacket and Bruce put lag alote, of course,
(35:53):
but will there's be enough for our final point on
our checklist?
Speaker 2 (35:57):
Well, I think I found the perfect quote, and I
feel like it speaks to what Afi and Otto were
talking about. So this is from a chapter called Fandom
as Pathology the Consequences of Characterization by Jerlie Jensen, and
it's from the book The Adoring Audience, Fan Culture and
Popular Media by Lisa A.
Speaker 4 (36:14):
Lewis.
Speaker 2 (36:15):
So Julie Jensen writes fandom should be explored in relation
to the larger question of what it means to desire, cherish, seek, long, admire, envy, celebrate, protect,
and ally with others. Fandom is an aspect of how
we make sense of the world. So, in other words,
we are perfect and actually we are doing fandom exactly right.
Speaker 4 (36:36):
Yes, yeah, I smatching this.
Speaker 3 (36:39):
We're using fandom to make sense of our dystopian landscapes
while also finding ourselves and others along the way. I
feel ready to face the panel. We've proved that Bruce
Bingstein is camp.
Speaker 2 (36:50):
We find our struggles reflected in Bruce's music at the
very least, and.
Speaker 3 (36:55):
We have some thoughts and feelings about queering Bruce Springsteen
as a project that ultimate that helps us find meaning
in our lives.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Which we and many others have done through dancing, crying,
and fucking to his music.
Speaker 3 (37:08):
Will all this be enough to convince a panel of
queer experts who could not give less of a shit
about Bruce Springsteen that he is, in fact the queer icon.
Speaker 2 (37:17):
That's next episode, Because the Bass Belongs to Us is
a production of malten Hart and iHeart Podcasts were hosted
by Jesse Lawson and Holly Cassio.
Speaker 3 (37:32):
This series is executive produced by Jesse and Holly and
created by Jesse Lawson.
Speaker 2 (37:37):
This episode was produced and sound designed by Jesse Lawson,
with production assistants by Molly Nugents and Tess Hazel. Michelle
mackclum is our mix engineer.
Speaker 3 (37:46):
Our original music and theme is by Talk Bazaar at
Talk ba z aar Underscore. Our show art was designed
and illustrated by Holly Cassio at Holly c Asio.
Speaker 2 (37:57):
In fact Check in by Serena Serlin. Legal service is
provided by Rowan, Moron and File.
Speaker 3 (38:02):
Our executive producer from Malton Hart is Jasmine J. T.
Speaker 4 (38:05):
Green.
Speaker 3 (38:06):
Our executive producer from iHeart Podcasts is Lindsay Hoffman.
Speaker 2 (38:10):
A huge thank you and shout out to Lauren Purcell
for all of her support.
Speaker 3 (38:15):
A reminder that our friends have released six absolutely stunning
Bruce covers to celebrate the series. There's a link in
our show notes for the Queer Springsteen playlist.
Speaker 4 (38:23):
Listen there. Don't forget to review the show on our
podcast platform.
Speaker 2 (38:28):
And tell your friends to listen. It makes a huge
difference because the bust, the bust, the burst
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