June 8, 2023 • 19 mins
Negro League baseball was drawing huge crowds due to its fast action style of play and its fan base. Major League baseball took notice and financial reasons were a large part of the breaking of the color barrier. As players started to migrate to Major League baseball so did the fans, and young talent in the Negro Leagues were signed to major and minor league contracts, marking the beginning of the end for Negro League baseball.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:05):
Hi, I'm Bill Overton. Welcome to Behind the Barrier Voices
from the Negro Leagues. In today's episode, we discuss how
the breaking of the color barrier was very much financially
motivated due to the popularity of the Negro leagues. The
unique style of play and entertainment value had fans flocking
(00:26):
to the stadiums to watch Negro League baseball. However, as
the color barrier was broken and black players were entering
both the major and minor league systems, the majority of
those fans began to cross over to watch integrated play,
and with that migration, along with no compensation to teams,
we began to see the downfall of Negro league baseball.
(00:51):
Here is pitcher Dennis Biddle discussing the attraction of the
different style of play in Negro League baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The game was a difference, and they don't want to
talk about the difference. The game was different than that
of the major league. It was more darian and more excited. Therefore,
thousands of thousands of people would come and watch the
Negro league team play because of that.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Dennis and Professor Leslie Heathy both point out the economic
interest that major league owners first rejected, but then came
to realize due to the success of the Negro leagues.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The mere thought of Jackie Robinson had nothing to do
with the Major League ready to integrate. It was economics.
Those owners went to those major league parks, huh, and
rented those parks for those team to play in when
the major league team was out of town. That was
(01:51):
the mere thought of Jackie Robins. Simply because the Negro
League teams drew more fans in the major league park
in the major league team. That was a mere thought
of Jackie Robinson. They don't talk about it. It's not pretty.
These men honored was out to make money, and they
made money. They put together All Star games against the
(02:15):
Black All Stars and the White All Stars, and they
packed the stadiums, and the Black All Star a lot
of time beat the major league team. It's in the
record books.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
A lot of those players that they later years put
in the Hall of Fame played in those games against
those players. The white player that was in the put
in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
So many of the Major League teams rented out their
stadiums to the Egal League teams, and they made a
lot of money because you know, we see it today
when stadiums sit empty for a whole week. You're you're paying,
you're paying for it, still you're not making any money.
So Eagle League teams were a huge source of income
to Major League teams. So the fear was on the
opposite side. If the Negro League teams start to decline
(03:10):
or disappear, then we're going to lose that rental income.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Dennis goes on to discuss how the Negro leagues ultimately
became a farm system from Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
The major leagues broke up the Negro Baseball League, Mister
branch RICKI, he knew what he was getting ready to
do was going to be a devastating blow to that league.
He knew that, but he had a long range goal.
He put forth that when it does happen, we're going
to use the Negro League as a minor league system
(03:42):
for the major league. That's what it really was, but
not the credibility. When he went to set up that
idea of years, the owners refused, and they refused because
they were making more money.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So Leslie Heffy points out that fielding the best players
is the way to bring in the fans.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
So they're certainly the recognition, and Ricky and mcphale and
all the Veack and all the other owners are certainly businessmen, right,
so they are looking to put the best team on
the field because the best team is going to win,
the best team is going to bring in the fans,
and you are going to then consequently make money off
of that.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
When players were signed, former Indianapolis Clowns infielder Reggie Howard
points out that no revenue went to the Negro League
or the teams.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
As an example, the Kansas City Monarchs, Jyl Wilkinson, Town
Barry White owners did not receive one penny for Jackie Robson.
The New York Eagles did not receive one penny for
Don Nucleus. That was a Vanessa me usband wife's team
and the home state grade mister Sonny Man Jackson and
(04:56):
Kuban and Pole on the Graves. They didn't get one
penny for Johnny Wright. Johnny Wright will the first player signed,
first picture signed from the Negro League, shortly after Robinson,
maybe like three or four months after Robinson. Find the
Blacks didn't get as much as they should have gotten
out of it by just taking one in and then
second these players off which ultimately destroyed the league.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Picture. Leo Westbrook discusses the contribution of the players who
broke the barrier and what it meant to the major leagues.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
The contribution, uh that uh that Negroes made to baseball
is a big time up tip in an attendance. And
that's what branch Ricky was was thinking about. You know
when he Jackie asked him why didn't he why why
did he sign him? And he rubbed his fingers together.
(05:49):
He was told him at truth money and uh so,
uh more of blacks began to show up at baseball
games because you had the likes of you know, uh
went after Jackie, Don dukem and all those guys.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Pitcher Hank Mason tells the story of the difference in
attendance of the Negro League games versus the major leagues
and the innovative reasons for the large.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Audience we played in Kansas City at Blues Stadium. Now,
let me tell you something. In nineteen fifty two, when
I pitched sixteen innings to beat the Philadelphia Stars three
to two, we had something like maybe fourteen thousand fans
(06:39):
in the stand. Saint Louis Cardinals was playing the Cincinnati
Reds in Saint Louis, which is about two hundred and
forty miles away from Kansas City, and they had three
thousand fans. Now, what do you think. Why do you
think that branch Ricky signed Jackie Robinson Because they they
(07:06):
wanted to see a different brand of baseball. You see
the Negro League. The Negro League players, they invented the
double steal, they invented the drag bunch. They invented a
whole bunch of things that the major league players wasn't
(07:27):
doing that was excited to fans. And let me tell
you another thing. The Negro League was the first league
that played night baseball. And the Kansas City Monarcks invented
NICA to night baseball because they had trucks hauling the
(07:52):
transformers from one town to another, and that's what invented
night baseball.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Dennis Biddle also points out how the major leagues studied
the style of the Negro League players.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The Negro League, Ah, it was, it was different than
that of the major leagues. The play, the style, and
the technique was different many time. And this we passed
down many time. They said the owners of those white
(08:26):
teams were sneaking the game and studied their techniques and
take it back to the major league and implements. There's
a lot of plays there they're doing in the major
leagues today. Came from the Negro Baseball League.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Infield of Nate Dancy remembers how many people showed up
to a Kansas City Monarchs game.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
We had my white fan do we had African America
because we traveled see and everywhere we go. When they
find out that they can't sit in when us was coming,
I mean, they had the feels off for the.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
People coming in.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
It was so exciting. We said that sometimes we said
that for thirty minutes hours before the games out just
signed autograds. They were they were so excited to see
us play because we always put on a pretty good show.
Fun we put on like the infield of the infield
was excited, and when we had a game, we had
people to get to the party really to see us,
but do the infield and patt and practice, so that
(09:19):
was really really exciting to the game.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Also, Hall of Fame manager Buck O'Neill talks about how
the Nego League All Stars often beat the Major League
teams and how the major leagues were not superior due
to the style of the play.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
It was our spending. Really, it was our spending because actually,
you know, we want the majority of the ball game
that we played the major leaguers, that the Bay Root
the Bay Roots All Stars against the sache of Page
All Stars, Bart Feller All Stars sat to Page All
Stars and uh, the Disitan All Stars sat to Page
(09:56):
All Stars. Now we won the majority of the ball game.
Was not that we were better than the major leagues.
But what actually happened is the you know, the world
said the best baseball in the world was Major League baseball,
and we had we wanted to prove a point that
(10:17):
they weren't superior because they were major leagues and we
weren't into because we were Negro League. So we stretched
that singing into double, doubled into a triple. We stole home.
We did these things. See Jackie Robinson took Negro league
baseball to the MAJA leagues. That was Negro league baseball, fast, quick,
(10:40):
lot of action.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Pitcher Gilbert Black also remembers how competitive the play was
between the black and white teams when they faced each other.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
Well, I during the time I played, I played at
the end of at the end of the Negro League.
I didn't play during the during the heydays, and I
talked to many players because we had a guy on
the team named Johnny Williams who played played in the
Negro League, and he was He was a bus driver
and chaperone, and I used to ask him a lot
(11:11):
of questions about it. And he told me that if
the during the barnstorming after the season was over, the
white teams would get together stand usual and the rest
of them and the black ballflayers would get together, and
they played each other barnstorming around the country, and one
team would not outshine the other one, no matter, no
(11:34):
matter you know who was playing. The black team had
just as much of an atcher on the white team
as the white team had on the blood team.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Hall of Fame Outfield of William Mays discusses how Negro
League players changed the game of the major leagues.
Speaker 10 (11:49):
I think, I think when we came into the league,
we changed the game. We changed the game from running.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
For throwing lace I thought I did.
Speaker 10 (12:00):
I didn't think anybody could beat me doing anything when
I came in, like I was just a little cocker
kid came along. Twenty year old kid. I didn't know that.
I went forward to catch these kind of balls they're
talking about people couldn't catch. I didn't. I didn't know
I was. I went about to throw runners out like
I did, hit home runs. I just didn't feel nobody
could beat me doing anything. And that's the way I
(12:20):
played when I came into high school, when I came
with the Barons, I was just one of those kids that, hey,
when the ball went up, catch it and throw it
and hit it. So I did all those things before
I even came to the Giants. It's just the Giants
was organized a little more and everybody started reading the
paper about what's going on.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So outfielder Sam Allen discusses the style of play and
the unique show put on by the Indianapolis Clowns to
entertain their fans.
Speaker 11 (12:48):
This was before Jack Robinson went to the Dodge. You
look forward to see they grow theg teams come to town.
I mean they played, They played a different brand of ball.
They ran, stole bases and hit long home runs, you know,
and it was entertaining because see they had like the
Clowns and some of the teams had had little ax,
(13:11):
you know with uh flyn Nez was like an acrobat.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
But it was, it was, it was entertaining.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Author Camparen discusses how the Negro League games were a
place to be for black sports and how the focus
of the fans began to shift after Jackie breaks the barrier.
Speaker 12 (13:30):
I mean, the Negro Leagues was, you know, there was
no other sports league, you know, of all black athletes.
The Negro League was, you know, the place to be
in in black sports. And so, you know, people would
keep up with their favorite players in the newspaper. You
had newspapers like the Chicago Defender, the Afro American, and
(13:53):
they would they would cover you know, all these games,
and people kept up with their top stars. And then obviously,
when you know, Major League Baseball started coaching players like
Jackie Robinson, some of that SANDOM kind of you know
started to slip away as the top talent started to
drift towards the major league. And with that, you know,
the fans would rather see you know, Jackie Robinson play
(14:15):
on the Brooklyn Dodgers and go and see a New
York Black Yankees game.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Professor Leslie Heffey also discusses the shift of the audiences
to the major leagues as black players entered the league.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
The newspapers are going to play an interesting role in
all of this, because as soon as Jackie and then
Larry and others h entered major white major league baseball, right,
you're going to see the black newspapers starting to devote
an increasing amount of their coverage to following the black
players that are now playing in the white major leagues,
(14:47):
right instead of league league teams, and so literally pushing
the audience towards and in fact, there's going to be
discussion in some of the papers as some of the
black journalists going to in the papers essentially take to task.
Some of the black fans were saying that they were
deserting right the black baseball teams to go watch these
(15:10):
and that they needed to come back in and so
definitely seeing this much larger audience that you could draw
in because you've brought in Sachel, Larry, Monty, Willie Mays,
Ernie Banks, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Pitching, Dennis Biddle discusses how the major leagues started to
use the coaches and scouts from the negro leagues to
contract players to the Major and minor leagues.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
The Negro League got nothing from preparing Jackie Robinson. But
what they did they signed all the younger players the
long binding contract. So if a major league were if
a team were interested, they knew they were going to
be internship because Jacket opened the door and they knew
(15:58):
they would be looking for telling. These men that I
talked about that fell through the crack that prepared us,
this was their livelihood preparing us. They would scout us
in high school, colleges and playground. They would bring us
in those that could go and prepare, and we had
(16:22):
to sign along. Behind the contracts. The Major league started
going to the same sources that the Negro League team
were going to get telling. That's why a lot of
the black ball players that played in the fifties and
sixties and seventies never never played in the Negro Baseball
(16:43):
because the Major League went to the college, the playground,
and high schools. This is where the Negro League team
got telling. When the Major league teams started doing this,
the Negro League team Sir connoct Com beat so by
nineteen six three, that were the end of the Negro
Baseball League.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Author cam Parent and Professor Leslie Heffey discuss how the
clout of Major League Baseball and their system fooled both
the players and fans from the negro leagues.
Speaker 12 (17:17):
You know, I think at the end of the day,
you could ask this too former Major League baseball players themselves,
as they are former Negro league baseball players themselves, as
they you know, always just wanted to play in the
major leagues. So you know, if you have a Negro
league team and then you have a Major League team
with only one or two black players, the fans and
(17:38):
the players who you know, were one of one of
the two black ball players on the now major league team,
they they would go there instead. So I think the
clout of Major League Baseball was really just the end
goal for everybody to go towards.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Unfortunately, it limits the opportunities because so few get the
chance to make that transition. And you think, okay, so
that means the rest of them are just going to
stay in the negro leagues, right, Well, No, Unfortunately they
went to Canada, they went into the white minor leagues,
and so the consequence is the door opens instead of
(18:22):
opening fully wide, let's say it opened a quarter of
the way, right and so players slip through, and that
does have an impact on the Negro leagues, even if
there's still plenty of players, because the fans, right, who
are your economic base, are going to start to go
watch the Brooklyn Dodgers because they want to see Jackie play.
(18:43):
They want to see Larry Doobe play, they want to
see satchel, and they want to see them playing against
the white Major leaguers. They want to see them do well.
And so consequently, Negro league teams, that's part of their decline.
It's not so much that they're losing huge numbers of players, right,
they are losing their economic base. They're losing their support
and so as a business venture they have to shut down.
(19:04):
Every time a Negro league team shuts down, one of
those players maybe got to go to the majors, But
what happened to the fourteen others? Suddenly they have nowhere
to play. That's the true consequence. Where do they go?
There is nowhere for them to.
Speaker 13 (19:17):
Go behind the barrier Voices from the Negro Leagues is
narrated by Bill Overton, produced by Taylor Haber. Executive producers
are Jason Wyckhilp, Darren Peck, and Ron Barr. Please check
out our next episode as well as the episodes in
(19:39):
this series. This series is distributed by a Sports Byline
USA and the Eight Side Network
Hi, I'm Bill Overton. Welcome to Behind the Barrier Voices
from the Negro Leagues. In today's episode, we discuss how
the breaking of the color barrier was very much financially
motivated due to the popularity of the Negro leagues. The
unique style of play and entertainment value had fans flocking
(00:26):
to the stadiums to watch Negro League baseball. However, as
the color barrier was broken and black players were entering
both the major and minor league systems, the majority of
those fans began to cross over to watch integrated play,
and with that migration, along with no compensation to teams,
we began to see the downfall of Negro league baseball.
(00:51):
Here is pitcher Dennis Biddle discussing the attraction of the
different style of play in Negro League baseball.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
The game was a difference, and they don't want to
talk about the difference. The game was different than that
of the major league. It was more darian and more excited. Therefore,
thousands of thousands of people would come and watch the
Negro league team play because of that.
Speaker 1 (01:16):
Dennis and Professor Leslie Heathy both point out the economic
interest that major league owners first rejected, but then came
to realize due to the success of the Negro leagues.
Speaker 2 (01:29):
The mere thought of Jackie Robinson had nothing to do
with the Major League ready to integrate. It was economics.
Those owners went to those major league parks, huh, and
rented those parks for those team to play in when
the major league team was out of town. That was
(01:51):
the mere thought of Jackie Robins. Simply because the Negro
League teams drew more fans in the major league park
in the major league team. That was a mere thought
of Jackie Robinson. They don't talk about it. It's not pretty.
These men honored was out to make money, and they
made money. They put together All Star games against the
(02:15):
Black All Stars and the White All Stars, and they
packed the stadiums, and the Black All Star a lot
of time beat the major league team. It's in the
record books.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
Uh.
Speaker 2 (02:31):
A lot of those players that they later years put
in the Hall of Fame played in those games against
those players. The white player that was in the put
in the Hall of Fame.
Speaker 4 (02:44):
So many of the Major League teams rented out their
stadiums to the Egal League teams, and they made a
lot of money because you know, we see it today
when stadiums sit empty for a whole week. You're you're paying,
you're paying for it, still you're not making any money.
So Eagle League teams were a huge source of income
to Major League teams. So the fear was on the
opposite side. If the Negro League teams start to decline
(03:10):
or disappear, then we're going to lose that rental income.
Speaker 1 (03:14):
Dennis goes on to discuss how the Negro leagues ultimately
became a farm system from Major League Baseball.
Speaker 2 (03:19):
The major leagues broke up the Negro Baseball League, Mister
branch RICKI, he knew what he was getting ready to
do was going to be a devastating blow to that league.
He knew that, but he had a long range goal.
He put forth that when it does happen, we're going
to use the Negro League as a minor league system
(03:42):
for the major league. That's what it really was, but
not the credibility. When he went to set up that
idea of years, the owners refused, and they refused because
they were making more money.
Speaker 1 (04:00):
So Leslie Heffy points out that fielding the best players
is the way to bring in the fans.
Speaker 4 (04:05):
So they're certainly the recognition, and Ricky and mcphale and
all the Veack and all the other owners are certainly businessmen, right,
so they are looking to put the best team on
the field because the best team is going to win,
the best team is going to bring in the fans,
and you are going to then consequently make money off
of that.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
When players were signed, former Indianapolis Clowns infielder Reggie Howard
points out that no revenue went to the Negro League
or the teams.
Speaker 5 (04:33):
As an example, the Kansas City Monarchs, Jyl Wilkinson, Town
Barry White owners did not receive one penny for Jackie Robson.
The New York Eagles did not receive one penny for
Don Nucleus. That was a Vanessa me usband wife's team
and the home state grade mister Sonny Man Jackson and
(04:56):
Kuban and Pole on the Graves. They didn't get one
penny for Johnny Wright. Johnny Wright will the first player signed,
first picture signed from the Negro League, shortly after Robinson,
maybe like three or four months after Robinson. Find the
Blacks didn't get as much as they should have gotten
out of it by just taking one in and then
second these players off which ultimately destroyed the league.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Picture. Leo Westbrook discusses the contribution of the players who
broke the barrier and what it meant to the major leagues.
Speaker 6 (05:26):
The contribution, uh that uh that Negroes made to baseball
is a big time up tip in an attendance. And
that's what branch Ricky was was thinking about. You know
when he Jackie asked him why didn't he why why
did he sign him? And he rubbed his fingers together.
(05:49):
He was told him at truth money and uh so,
uh more of blacks began to show up at baseball
games because you had the likes of you know, uh
went after Jackie, Don dukem and all those guys.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
Pitcher Hank Mason tells the story of the difference in
attendance of the Negro League games versus the major leagues
and the innovative reasons for the large.
Speaker 7 (06:17):
Audience we played in Kansas City at Blues Stadium. Now,
let me tell you something. In nineteen fifty two, when
I pitched sixteen innings to beat the Philadelphia Stars three
to two, we had something like maybe fourteen thousand fans
(06:39):
in the stand. Saint Louis Cardinals was playing the Cincinnati
Reds in Saint Louis, which is about two hundred and
forty miles away from Kansas City, and they had three
thousand fans. Now, what do you think. Why do you
think that branch Ricky signed Jackie Robinson Because they they
(07:06):
wanted to see a different brand of baseball. You see
the Negro League. The Negro League players, they invented the
double steal, they invented the drag bunch. They invented a
whole bunch of things that the major league players wasn't
(07:27):
doing that was excited to fans. And let me tell
you another thing. The Negro League was the first league
that played night baseball. And the Kansas City Monarcks invented
NICA to night baseball because they had trucks hauling the
(07:52):
transformers from one town to another, and that's what invented
night baseball.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
Dennis Biddle also points out how the major leagues studied
the style of the Negro League players.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
The Negro League, Ah, it was, it was different than
that of the major leagues. The play, the style, and
the technique was different many time. And this we passed
down many time. They said the owners of those white
(08:26):
teams were sneaking the game and studied their techniques and
take it back to the major league and implements. There's
a lot of plays there they're doing in the major
leagues today. Came from the Negro Baseball League.
Speaker 1 (08:40):
Infield of Nate Dancy remembers how many people showed up
to a Kansas City Monarchs game.
Speaker 8 (08:45):
We had my white fan do we had African America
because we traveled see and everywhere we go. When they
find out that they can't sit in when us was coming,
I mean, they had the feels off for the.
Speaker 5 (08:56):
People coming in.
Speaker 8 (08:58):
It was so exciting. We said that sometimes we said
that for thirty minutes hours before the games out just
signed autograds. They were they were so excited to see
us play because we always put on a pretty good show.
Fun we put on like the infield of the infield
was excited, and when we had a game, we had
people to get to the party really to see us,
but do the infield and patt and practice, so that
(09:19):
was really really exciting to the game.
Speaker 1 (09:21):
Also, Hall of Fame manager Buck O'Neill talks about how
the Nego League All Stars often beat the Major League
teams and how the major leagues were not superior due
to the style of the play.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
It was our spending. Really, it was our spending because actually,
you know, we want the majority of the ball game
that we played the major leaguers, that the Bay Root
the Bay Roots All Stars against the sache of Page
All Stars, Bart Feller All Stars sat to Page All
Stars and uh, the Disitan All Stars sat to Page
(09:56):
All Stars. Now we won the majority of the ball game.
Was not that we were better than the major leagues.
But what actually happened is the you know, the world
said the best baseball in the world was Major League baseball,
and we had we wanted to prove a point that
(10:17):
they weren't superior because they were major leagues and we
weren't into because we were Negro League. So we stretched
that singing into double, doubled into a triple. We stole home.
We did these things. See Jackie Robinson took Negro league
baseball to the MAJA leagues. That was Negro league baseball, fast, quick,
(10:40):
lot of action.
Speaker 1 (10:41):
Pitcher Gilbert Black also remembers how competitive the play was
between the black and white teams when they faced each other.
Speaker 9 (10:48):
Well, I during the time I played, I played at
the end of at the end of the Negro League.
I didn't play during the during the heydays, and I
talked to many players because we had a guy on
the team named Johnny Williams who played played in the
Negro League, and he was He was a bus driver
and chaperone, and I used to ask him a lot
(11:11):
of questions about it. And he told me that if
the during the barnstorming after the season was over, the
white teams would get together stand usual and the rest
of them and the black ballflayers would get together, and
they played each other barnstorming around the country, and one
team would not outshine the other one, no matter, no
(11:34):
matter you know who was playing. The black team had
just as much of an atcher on the white team
as the white team had on the blood team.
Speaker 1 (11:43):
Hall of Fame Outfield of William Mays discusses how Negro
League players changed the game of the major leagues.
Speaker 10 (11:49):
I think, I think when we came into the league,
we changed the game. We changed the game from running.
Speaker 3 (11:55):
For throwing lace I thought I did.
Speaker 10 (12:00):
I didn't think anybody could beat me doing anything when
I came in, like I was just a little cocker
kid came along. Twenty year old kid. I didn't know that.
I went forward to catch these kind of balls they're
talking about people couldn't catch. I didn't. I didn't know
I was. I went about to throw runners out like
I did, hit home runs. I just didn't feel nobody
could beat me doing anything. And that's the way I
(12:20):
played when I came into high school, when I came
with the Barons, I was just one of those kids that, hey,
when the ball went up, catch it and throw it
and hit it. So I did all those things before
I even came to the Giants. It's just the Giants
was organized a little more and everybody started reading the
paper about what's going on.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
So outfielder Sam Allen discusses the style of play and
the unique show put on by the Indianapolis Clowns to
entertain their fans.
Speaker 11 (12:48):
This was before Jack Robinson went to the Dodge. You
look forward to see they grow theg teams come to town.
I mean they played, They played a different brand of ball.
They ran, stole bases and hit long home runs, you know,
and it was entertaining because see they had like the
Clowns and some of the teams had had little ax,
(13:11):
you know with uh flyn Nez was like an acrobat.
Speaker 5 (13:16):
But it was, it was, it was entertaining.
Speaker 1 (13:19):
Author Camparen discusses how the Negro League games were a
place to be for black sports and how the focus
of the fans began to shift after Jackie breaks the barrier.
Speaker 12 (13:30):
I mean, the Negro Leagues was, you know, there was
no other sports league, you know, of all black athletes.
The Negro League was, you know, the place to be
in in black sports. And so, you know, people would
keep up with their favorite players in the newspaper. You
had newspapers like the Chicago Defender, the Afro American, and
(13:53):
they would they would cover you know, all these games,
and people kept up with their top stars. And then obviously,
when you know, Major League Baseball started coaching players like
Jackie Robinson, some of that SANDOM kind of you know
started to slip away as the top talent started to
drift towards the major league. And with that, you know,
the fans would rather see you know, Jackie Robinson play
(14:15):
on the Brooklyn Dodgers and go and see a New
York Black Yankees game.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Professor Leslie Heffey also discusses the shift of the audiences
to the major leagues as black players entered the league.
Speaker 4 (14:27):
The newspapers are going to play an interesting role in
all of this, because as soon as Jackie and then
Larry and others h entered major white major league baseball, right,
you're going to see the black newspapers starting to devote
an increasing amount of their coverage to following the black
players that are now playing in the white major leagues,
(14:47):
right instead of league league teams, and so literally pushing
the audience towards and in fact, there's going to be
discussion in some of the papers as some of the
black journalists going to in the papers essentially take to task.
Some of the black fans were saying that they were
deserting right the black baseball teams to go watch these
(15:10):
and that they needed to come back in and so
definitely seeing this much larger audience that you could draw
in because you've brought in Sachel, Larry, Monty, Willie Mays,
Ernie Banks, et cetera.
Speaker 1 (15:25):
Pitching, Dennis Biddle discusses how the major leagues started to
use the coaches and scouts from the negro leagues to
contract players to the Major and minor leagues.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
The Negro League got nothing from preparing Jackie Robinson. But
what they did they signed all the younger players the
long binding contract. So if a major league were if
a team were interested, they knew they were going to
be internship because Jacket opened the door and they knew
(15:58):
they would be looking for telling. These men that I
talked about that fell through the crack that prepared us,
this was their livelihood preparing us. They would scout us
in high school, colleges and playground. They would bring us
in those that could go and prepare, and we had
(16:22):
to sign along. Behind the contracts. The Major league started
going to the same sources that the Negro League team
were going to get telling. That's why a lot of
the black ball players that played in the fifties and
sixties and seventies never never played in the Negro Baseball
(16:43):
because the Major League went to the college, the playground,
and high schools. This is where the Negro League team
got telling. When the Major league teams started doing this,
the Negro League team Sir connoct Com beat so by
nineteen six three, that were the end of the Negro
Baseball League.
Speaker 1 (17:04):
Author cam Parent and Professor Leslie Heffey discuss how the
clout of Major League Baseball and their system fooled both
the players and fans from the negro leagues.
Speaker 12 (17:17):
You know, I think at the end of the day,
you could ask this too former Major League baseball players themselves,
as they are former Negro league baseball players themselves, as
they you know, always just wanted to play in the
major leagues. So you know, if you have a Negro
league team and then you have a Major League team
with only one or two black players, the fans and
(17:38):
the players who you know, were one of one of
the two black ball players on the now major league team,
they they would go there instead. So I think the
clout of Major League Baseball was really just the end
goal for everybody to go towards.
Speaker 4 (17:58):
Unfortunately, it limits the opportunities because so few get the
chance to make that transition. And you think, okay, so
that means the rest of them are just going to
stay in the negro leagues, right, Well, No, Unfortunately they
went to Canada, they went into the white minor leagues,
and so the consequence is the door opens instead of
(18:22):
opening fully wide, let's say it opened a quarter of
the way, right and so players slip through, and that
does have an impact on the Negro leagues, even if
there's still plenty of players, because the fans, right, who
are your economic base, are going to start to go
watch the Brooklyn Dodgers because they want to see Jackie play.
(18:43):
They want to see Larry Doobe play, they want to
see satchel, and they want to see them playing against
the white Major leaguers. They want to see them do well.
And so consequently, Negro league teams, that's part of their decline.
It's not so much that they're losing huge numbers of players, right,
they are losing their economic base. They're losing their support
and so as a business venture they have to shut down.
(19:04):
Every time a Negro league team shuts down, one of
those players maybe got to go to the majors, But
what happened to the fourteen others? Suddenly they have nowhere
to play. That's the true consequence. Where do they go?
There is nowhere for them to.
Speaker 13 (19:17):
Go behind the barrier Voices from the Negro Leagues is
narrated by Bill Overton, produced by Taylor Haber. Executive producers
are Jason Wyckhilp, Darren Peck, and Ron Barr. Please check
out our next episode as well as the episodes in
(19:39):
this series. This series is distributed by a Sports Byline
USA and the Eight Side Network
Host
Bill Overton
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
New Heights with Jason & Travis Kelce
Football’s funniest family duo — Jason Kelce of the Philadelphia Eagles and Travis Kelce of the Kansas City Chiefs — team up to provide next-level access to life in the league as it unfolds. The two brothers and Super Bowl champions drop weekly insights about the weekly slate of games and share their INSIDE perspectives on trending NFL news and sports headlines. They also endlessly rag on each other as brothers do, chat the latest in pop culture and welcome some very popular and well-known friends to chat with them. Check out new episodes every Wednesday. Follow New Heights on the Wondery App, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts. You can listen to new episodes early and ad-free, and get exclusive content on Wondery+. Join Wondery+ in the Wondery App, Apple Podcasts or Spotify. And join our new membership for a unique fan experience by going to the New Heights YouTube channel now!