Cole Cuchna turned his experience as a classically trained composer and adept researcher into a booming podcast career - breaking down game-changing albums from artists like Kendrick Lamar and Kanye West on his viral podcast, Dissect. Dissect happens to be my very favorite podcast (Seriously, I listened to the entire "To Pimp a Butterfly" season in one sitting) - so I was thrilled to have the opportunity to pick Cole's brain. I loved hearing the origin story of Dissect and how it came to fruition (his retelling of how his daughter played a role in in the podcast's creation may melt you), his opinion on what it takes to be a great artist, and what personal favorites are playing on repeat on his Spotify. I also made him break down "Sicko Mode" with us on the fly...you're welcome.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Welcome to Behind the Influence, a production of I Heart
Radio and t DC Media. I'm really big advocate of like,
if you have an idea and you think it's good,
just start, like just go to be honest, I have
a structure now, but back in the day on that
first episode, there's literally no plan. I don't think you
need music training to make great music. I didn't really
(00:23):
put it out there expecting much of an audience for
a twelve hour detailed analysis of one album because it's
like pretty nerdy. You know. He's the brains behind my
favorite podcast in the universe, Dissect, where he quite literally
dissects the ship out of the most genius hip hop
albums coming from artists like Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar, Frank Oshan,
(00:43):
and Taller the creator Cole Kuchen. Ever about it, Hey,
I'm gonna steal that tagline, dissect the ship out of it? Yeah,
I mean you do dissect the ship. I mean we
could say you dissect the funk out of him too,
because you do that. You also do that, And I
think I'm allowed to swear here, right, Brian, because I
I just really front loaded here, so good to have
(01:05):
you here before we went on air. I was telling
Cole that we've been trying to get him on forever
because I've been obsessed with Dissects since since my brother
in law introduced me to it. I had a really
interesting discovery moment with podcasts in general because of Dissect.
Everyone was all on the podcast train and listening to
this podcast, and I refused to do it because one,
I have the worst a d D on Planet Earth,
(01:26):
so I feel like for me to stay interested in
something for more than one episode is very difficult. And
we listened to the entire the My beautiful, dark, twisted Fantasy,
and I was hooked. We listened to the whole thing
through and through, didn't skip a beat. Cole, how do
you feel about that? Yeah, it's funny that you you
couldn't get into podcasts, but the one that you did
(01:47):
get into was like a deep dive on a single album.
It's just that's really funny to me. I mean it's
a testament to how good the content is, because yeah,
I could have gone for like a very low commitment
thirty minute it per episode, but yeah, we went. We
went really hard with you. Yeah that's cool, that's really cool. Yeah,
it's weird thinking about people hearing or listening to my
(02:08):
voice for that long, But that's really cool. I want
to start out with some background, dissect you for a
bit before we get into the before we get into
the hard hitting hip hop questions, which I've carefully curated
from my hip hop advisors. So life wasn't always Kanye
West and podcast for you. You are classically trained as
a composer, but like, let's go even before that, how
(02:32):
you got into the world of music. Yeah, I think
my earliest memory it's like my dad actually playing the
Beatles really loud every Sunday when you cleaned the house.
I always think about that as maybe it's set me
off some certain paths because that's like the like, literally
the earliest memory I have. So there's that, and my
dad really liked music and you play it really loud
all the time, you know. I just so, I just
(02:53):
remember that. And I started playing music formally at age
thirteen when I started playing guitar, basically a right when
I picked up the guitar. My life was oriented around
music from that point and still is. So that took
me through a few different iterations of what that means.
It started as me playing in bands mostly and writing
(03:13):
music for bands. And then when I got into my
mid twenties, I went to I was self taught at
that point up until that point, but then when I
was in my mid twenties, I went to school for
classical music composition and kind of fell in love with
classical music. You know, now Dissect is really my main thing,
which is obviously a music based podcast. Yeah, just ever
since I can remember, I've been a big fan of
(03:35):
music and then also been playing music forever. So when
you went to school to become a composer or at
least study composing, what was the game plan at that
point for career goals? Was there a plan or was
it just something that you were drawn to and you
wanted to just kind of see where it took you. Yeah,
the plan, I mean, there's not really much you can
do with your degree, honestly, especially one of music compositions.
(03:58):
So I was when I graduated, I was crossroads because
I really wanted to keep going to school. I wanted
to major in music history and get a doctorate there,
but there was really nothing I can do with that degree.
And then I got really worried that I would just
be in mountains of debt, so I decided against that.
You know, I went I think I went a year
or two out of college, not using my degree at all,
(04:18):
and then I started Dissect and that ended up being
my full time job now. But yeah, there was no plan,
to be honest, I went to school for music because
I loved it and I wanted to learn more. And
I've always been less practical than I should be when
it comes to that stuff. I just kind of follow
my passions and hopefully the the rest kind of falls
into place. But I kind of just got lucky with
Dissect and was able to actually use my degree in
(04:40):
a really weird way for what I do now as
a career. So what what inspired you to kick off Dissect?
Were podcasts something that you were interested in or how
did that even come to fruition for you? Yeah, it's
kind of like amalgamation of a lot of disjointed I
would say, interests and and events and I all kind
(05:01):
of ended up merging into one. So I think the
main thing was that I had my first daughter in
two thousand and fifteen, and that's when I started to
listen to podcasts because baby sleep a lot, or they're
just kind of sitting there for the first year, so
I'd always have like podcasts going and you and I
heard that, you know, listening to people speak was good
for like brain development, so I'd always had podcasts going on.
(05:23):
That's when I really started to listen to podcasts. Uh
and like a lot of people, Serial was the podcast
that got me into podcasts. I think everyone on planet
Earth has has listened to that podcast. That was definitely
a big inspiration to the world of podcasting. But before that, actually,
I'll try to make this a short story, but essentially
I was like self taught until I went to college,
(05:44):
and I was pretty naive when I applied to the
college that I ended up going to because everyone else
had like formal training in music, had been taking lessons
for years, and I was like coming in as a
self taught musician. And I kind of snuck my way
to the program because I auditioned with pieces that I
already had written, so it kind of like a kind
(06:04):
of side skirted the fact that I couldn't read music
really well at that point. But once I got into
the program and like started taking classes, I realized I
was like way behind everyone else, and so I either
was like I was like I'm going to drop out.
It was like literally to the point where I was
either as a dropout or just like figure out something else.
So I found these things called the Great Courses. I
(06:25):
always describe them as like podcasts before their podcasts. They're
basically like online lectures taught by world famous professors that
you can download like an entire class worth of lectures
and take an entire course. There's no homework, it's not
for credits or anything. It's just for people that want
to learn. So basically they have a whole suite of
music classes you can take. So I literally downloaded every
(06:48):
single one of these music classes, which was like over
fifteen classes, and I kind of supplemented my lack of
education and music with these classes. So it'd be like
one course would be Beethoven, and you arned about Beethoven's life,
you would kind of go through all of his musical
works and kind of dissect those all that to say,
I basically formatted dissect in the vein of a Great
(07:10):
Courses class, because in those classes that you'll take a
class on Beethoven, it will be like sixteen episodes or
sixteen lectures on Beethoven, and so I was like, well,
what if I kind of just did that but for
contemporary music, because I love contemporary music and not especially
hip hop doesn't get this kind of formal analysis that
I think it should. And then I was listening to
podcasts and I was like, well, I can model it
after the Great courses and publish it as a podcast
(07:33):
because podcasts are free, and I like the idea of
just putting it out there if so anyone can listen
to it. That's kind of where the concept of Dissect
came from. How did you decide which album you would
dissect for your first season? Yeah, so that kind of
goes along with the story of my daughter being born.
So the first season of Dissect was on to Pimp
a Butterfly by Kendrick Lamar. That album came out the
(07:55):
day after my daughter was born, and I have this
like really vivid memory of her coming home. It was
the first day she came home, and I was in
her nursery, holding her in my arms and listening to
the albums on album on with headphones, and the sun
was rising because she wasn't sleeping well. So I was
just kind of sitting there with her listening to the
album and like it just had this incredible impact on me.
(08:16):
One because it's a great album, but also like this
moment was like something that became really special. So I
just kept listening and listening to that album and it
has this story. You know, there's a poem that's read
in between songs, and you know it's like comes to
this grand conclusion of him talking to Tupac. I'm like,
something's going on here. I don't really quite understand it,
and it's way too intricate for me to understand just
(08:37):
by listening alone. And so that's when the idea sparked.
It was like, how am I going to force myself
to take the time to analyze this work like I
used to do in college with like classical works. And
so that's all the stuff I just said before. That's
when it all kind of started to merge together. It's like, oh, well,
I'll do this like analysis like the Great Courses, and
I'll publish it like a podcast, and I'll do it
on Kendrick Lamar's to Pimp Up Butterfly. Okay, So it's
(09:00):
sounds like really easy now that we look back on
these five amazing seasons that you've put together. But a
lot of work goes into each of these seasons. I
think I read somewhere that it's you take about twenty
hours per episode. Yeah, that's probably a modest estimate. Yeah,
there's like a lot of research and writing the script.
(09:21):
It takes a long time. So where do we even begin,
because there's lots of layers to the way that you
dissect the album. You're sitting down, you're you decided to
pimp a Butterfly? Is case number one? Maybe the only
season you ever do because you had no idea it
was going to be this successful. What is your structure?
(09:42):
What's your game plan? Are you treating this like a
full time job? Do you have a full time job
at the moment that you have to juggle this with
and treat this like a passion project? Yeah, so I
was definitely working full time, So something I was doing
at night when the baby want to sleep, when my
wife went to sleep, I would just stay up late
and work on it. But yeah, mean to be honest,
I have a structure now, but back in the day
(10:04):
on that first episode, there's literally no plan. I just
and I tell people this all the time, I'm really
big advocate of like, if you have an idea and
you think it's good, just start, like, just go, because
a lot of people kind of get in their own
head and they you know, it's good to have a
plan and really developed stuff, but I've seen way too
many times where that hinders people from actually doing the work,
(10:27):
and then they never even start because it becomes this
big thing that they build up in their head. And
I'm just someone that's like just go, like do it,
sit down, start writing, and all that stuff will like
work itself out over the course of you just figuring out.
You know, if you force yourself to do it, it
forces you to then figure out how to do it.
So all that to say, like I literally just started
writing about the first song. I just sat down with
(10:49):
the lyrics and just started writing. Now, I would say
my process has changed a bit. There's a lot of
initial research that takes place where I kind of create
these like formal documents of sources and fact sheets and stuff.
I can refer to it as I work through the season.
So I compile just like a lot of sources and information.
(11:09):
So that takes a few weeks at least to kind
of sort through and read interviews and watch interviews and
just make sure I really know as much as I
can about the artists and the album before I start writing.
But once I get to the actual writing part, it's
really just sitting down listening obviously, but also just taking
it line by line, like writing out the lyric and
(11:29):
then just writing a paragraph or two about it. Writing
out the lyric, write another paragraph or two about It's
just like pretty straightforward. And the same with the music.
It's like I just kind of figure out the chord
progression or the production or whatever I want to talk about,
you know, just take it kind of chord by chord
and and just start writing. I'm just I really love
just jumping in and seeing where the episode or the
song takes me. Um, that's kind of my favorite part
(11:52):
because I end up always going places I will never
expect to go. You know, before I sat down, was
there a moment within the first season while you were
researching anything that caught you off guard or that you
were surprised to learn either about the music world or
about Kendrick specifically. Um, it's hard. I mean that was
like a long time ago. I think that, I mean,
(12:12):
the thing that still sticks with me now, and especially
because I'm now doing Kendrick again for season five doing Damn.
It's just how intricate his work is. I'm just so
blown away with what he's able to pack into these songs,
these overarching narratives across the whole album, but also making
songs that function as just singles or music. The way
(12:36):
that he's bridging this intellectual world, this narrative world, with
this world of like more commercial successful music is I
think it's the hardest thing to do in music. It's
really I wouldn't say easy, but it's like, if you
want to make like an arts album or something that's
really heavy and intellectual, yeah you can go do that,
but a lot of times those projects just become like,
(12:58):
you know, not a lot of people are gonna listen
to him. The appeal is limited, And so I have
really great respect for someone like Kendrick who is able
to do both. I think it's it's just incredibly hard
to do to pack that much intellectual meat into a
work but also keep it to where people want to
listen to it over and over again. Yeah. That's so
that's the kind of thing that sticks out for Kendrick, because, yeah,
(13:19):
if you You You can definitely just listen to Kendrick's music
for surface level enjoyment, you know, But those who want
to dig in deep, it's going to keep giving back.
The more and more you give it, the more and
more it's going to give you. And you can't really
say that about a lot of albums to that point.
Are you able to high level listen to anything anymore?
Can you just enjoy a song and not break it
(13:39):
down in your head because you're so used to doing
this with so many great albums? No, Yeah, I definitely
can still do that. I think it's I just get
myself into a certain mindset. If I want to think
about something I definitely like in my own head, I'm
approaching it way different than if I just want to
put something on to feel good or whatever. So for
that first album or for that first season, it was
(14:00):
there any fear surrounding maybe Kendrick here's this and doesn't
appreciate it or doesn't look at it the same way
that I do, or I fend somebody. Were there fears
that were that accompanied this really fun passion project that
you were putting all of your time, your extra time into. Yeah,
I don't, well, I don't know if it was a
fear of Kendrick himself. Definitely for the first season, there
(14:23):
was some hesitance about me being a white kid from
the suburbs dissecting, you know, specifically with to Pivot Butterfly,
it's basically Kendrick Lamar's story of escaping Compton in the
gang life that he was born into and Compton. I
definitely thought about that, you know, like, who am I
(14:43):
to kind of do that? But the more and more
I thought about it, the more and morals I kind
of approached a closed door, and on the other side
of the door was essentially what I viewed as an education.
I can open this door and attempt to learn as
much as I can about someone else's experiences. Yeah, admittedly
I have no idea what it is like, or I
can keep the door closed and then be even more
(15:06):
unfamiliar and unempathetic to that story. So ultimately I chose,
obviously to to go ahead and do it, And how
I justified it in my own head was just to
be as honest as possible, Like that's really all I
could have done is do it with as much integrity,
as much research, and just do it as much justice
as I can and go in knowing that I don't
(15:27):
actually know anything. And that's kind of like what I
liked about it was, I actually do not know anything,
and I can use this music to learn more about
an experience that I have, you know, I don't know
about through season one, That's really what became kind of
the thesis statement I guess of dissect is like, through
grese great works of art, Through these albums, you know,
that tell a very specific story about one person or
(15:49):
one person's experience. By studying these works of art, we
can actually learn more about people that we don't quite
understand or experiences that we don't haven't lived ourselves. And
that's become a really big passion of mine. And you know,
I talk about empathy a lot on the show. That's
kind of what I'm grounding dissecting is like, yeah, through
these experiences, we can get closer to people that we
(16:11):
otherwise maybe wouldn't have been as close with. So, yeah,
that was a fear, but not anymore really into that.
Did you ever hear feedback or through the grape vine
that Kendrick did hear the series? I don't know, Yeah,
I don't know, Like I know that I know his
camp knows of it. I don't know if Kendrick has listened. Uh, personally,
I'm gonna go ahead and say he has. Yeah, maybe,
I don't know. I'd be cool if you did. But
(16:33):
it's not really that shows honestly, not for him. It's
for people that it's actually really cool that people are
just actually listening to this in the first place. Because
I didn't really put it out there expecting much of
an audience. For a twelve hour detailed analysis of one album,
it's like pretty nerdy, you know. I don't know. I
think you kind of nailed it with picking the perfect
(16:55):
podcast subject. Like you said, if you have integrity and
you put research behind something, anytime you walk away from
a situation and you're learning something new, it's like you
know this information and you can name drop it at
the next dinner that you go to and you can say, well,
if somebody's talking about a song, you've just listened to
Cole's analysis of it. You can then drop some knowledge
(17:15):
on people. I think that's great. I think it's really wonderful.
Season two, you take on Mr Kanye West, and this
is when I believe you started a Patreon. Yeah. Season two.
So what what inspired you to to go the Patreon route. Yeah,
I mean at that point I got enough of audience
(17:36):
in season one. I wasn't huge, but it was something,
and I was like, well, you know, maybe I can
turn this into something. Maybe I can eventually take this
full time some way, somehow. So Patreon was an easy
way to start getting income in I like the idea
of it being kind of crowdsourced and actual listeners of
the show voluntarily giving because I had no ads at
(17:58):
that point. Yeah, Patreon just seemed to make sense. And
at that point, obviously I don't do it anymore. But
you know, by the end of season two I had
it wasn't nothing. It was getting close to something that
I could maybe quit my job, because even through season
two I was still working full time. And so it
was definitely a tool that I thought was could be useful,
and it ended up being very useful. I was able
(18:18):
to buy a new equipment, I got a new microphone.
I put all the money that I had earned on
Patreon back into the show. For that time, it was
definitely very valuable. At what point were you thinking this
could really be something that I take on full time?
Because I mean, you had a new baby, you're also
working a full time job, and you're doing something that
(18:40):
I think, I don't know a lot of people that
could do this just with this being the only focus
the story. Looking back, it's kind of crazy. On season two,
I started saying at the end, it's like, I want
to do this full time. I kind of just started
putting out there in the credits, like I'm trying to
do this full time. Support me on Patreon, putting it
out in through the universe, like I want this to happen,
(19:00):
Like I think there's something in like vocalizing intent helps
it come into fruition. And so I said that throughout
the second season. But by the end of season two,
I was exhausted. My relationship with my wife was getting
like you can imagine me working on this all the time,
having a new baby, working full time. There was some
stressors there. By the end of season two, I don't
(19:22):
think I could have done a season three without something
changing at all. Aligned perfectly because near the end of
season two, I got a call from Spotify and they're
interested in the show, and long story short, I ended
up partnering with Spotify and I was able to quit
my job, and I now, for now two years almost
done from season three on Dissect does my full time job.
(19:43):
That's incredible. So for people who don't really know how
the whole podcast world works, what advice would you give
somebody who's trying to start a podcast wants to make
it their full time thing, if you could, in hindsight
give yourself that same advice, that may have helped you
a long way, or maybe you did everything as you
should have. Yeah, I mean if I started out with
(20:05):
the intent that I wanted to do it as a job,
I wouldn't have done it in the way like I
wouldn't like in a million years, if you asked me
to make a podcast that I think would become popular
enough to quit my job and just do that for
a living, I would not have selected a twelve hour
analysis of a single album, Like it just doesn't make sense.
(20:26):
But like, because I'm passionate about it, and just because
I did what I wanted to do, I think that
has a lot to do with the success of the show.
So my my guess, my advice would be do what
you want, do what you're passionate about, format it in
a way that makes sense to you. Do what you
want to hear, make the content that you want to hear,
(20:48):
and kind of let the rest fall into place, because
I don't think there's a replacement for authenticity. I think
that's a big reason why Dissect works is because you know,
I believe what I'm saying, and I I did it
for no other reason than like just pure passion, or
at least started out that way. So yeah, I mean
I would suggest just like, do what you want to do,
(21:10):
do what you're passionate about, and don't really worry about
the rest, at least not at the beginning. I definitely
started to worry about that more and more. But conceptually, yeah,
I just did what I want. And I think a
lot of successful podcasts out there, at least from like
personality types, are just people talking about what they're passionate about.
So I would just suggest that, really, yeah, that makes
(21:32):
a lot of sense. Do you have any favorite podcasts
that you listen to? Yeah, I mean I think I
mostly listened to the NBA podcast now actually ironically it
just podcasts. It's like my job, so I listen I
think differently than most people, but NBA podcasts I've just
allow myself to just enjoy it. There's not too much
critical thinking going on. I listened to like Bill Simmons,
(21:52):
The Ringer NBA Show. I listened a lot of comedy
podcasts too. I'm definitely like an escapist now when it
comes to podcasts. That makes total sense. Yeah, um, so
you've had five You have five seasons on your belt
so far. I would imagine that other opportunities have come
through the success of Dissect, for example, I was thinking,
(22:12):
I wonder if artists are now approaching you to advise.
Is that something that has happened. I don't know about advise,
I mean get art artists requesting that I know, do
their album next or whatever. Oh that's interesting. Yeah, I
didn't mean that. I meant like, because you so critically
and perfectly break down what makes an album incredible, Like
(22:34):
if I were in the music space, I would want
to pick your brain and help me figure out how
to create a genius album like the ones that you've
already covered. No, nothing, nothing like that. Really, I'm genuinely shocked.
Have you heard from any of these artists that you've covered,
whether it's Frank Ocean, Kanye Tyler, the Creator, have you
heard from any of them? Being like, yo, I heard
your podcast. Love it. I've never talked to anyone directly.
(22:57):
I've definitely heard things through the grape vine. I know
Tyler the creator retweeted some stuff so and I heard
that he did listen and that he did like it.
I know Frank Ocean, I'm pretty sure he listened to
at least a first episode. To me, like Silence is
the best. To be honest with you, that's much more
likely that an artist will come after me because they
don't like it than if they just like it or
(23:19):
just think gets cool and just like okay, that's cool,
Like it's it's content about me and they don't think
much of it. I'm much rather have that than them
coming after me because I got something terribly wrong or whatever.
So I'm wait, I'm really good. I'm good with Silence.
You featured Kendrick twice, Kanye once, but he did just
(23:40):
come out with a very interesting album. Are there any
plans to potentially breakdown Jesus Is King? I don't think so.
I mean, it's too short for one. If I was
going to return to Kanye, I don't think it would
be that one. You know, I like it. I mean
it's still formulating thoughts. That just came out a couple
of days ago, But I don't know if that would
be the one I would do if I went back
(24:00):
to Kanye. If you went back to Kanye, which album
would it be? Jesus for sure, that's my favorite one.
So music is discovered and consumed in so many different
ways now, especially with all the advances and technology, streaming platforms,
social media, and musicians more and more are making music
catering to be successful on those platforms. What do you
(24:21):
think this means for the music world historically? I don't
really view it as any different than all the trends
that happened in the past. You know, like people used
to form out there albums on how much of you
know you can fit on a vinyl and side A
and side B. They would, you know, if you look
at old track lists are way different than they are today,
(24:42):
where it's like there's a very deliberate split between side
and side B, and you'll have strong singles that start
side B that come on the middle of the album,
which if you didn't have that division between side and
side BE on a record, like they would definitely not
do the track listing like that. So I kind of
see streaming acting in a similar way where it's like, yeah,
(25:03):
some artists are figuring out that shorter songs will get
more streams, and so you have like Little Nosax and
even Kanye's new record, like most of the songs are
two minutes, two minutes thirty seconds, so they're kind of
like catering to this new world. But songs were that short,
like back in the fifties and sixties, that was pretty normal.
It wasn't ntil like the seventies that people started really elongating.
(25:25):
Maybe a little bit that's in the sixties, but I
don't know. I mean, I just everything cyclical. Things come
and go. Like I think it's great that streaming allows
people to listen to more artists than ever before. There's
a lot of cynical things you can say about streaming too,
and that's totally fine and probably valid. But the convenience
for the consumer, I would say it's pretty paramount, and
I think that's evident in that no one buys CDs anymore.
(25:47):
Spotify or Apple Music they offered a service, but it
was the consumer that really changed things. Like we didn't
have to use streaming, we could have kept buying CDs,
but it just came a point in history where that
just didn't make sense anymore. I tend to view it
from a historical perspective, from more of an optimistic perspective,
and just artists are going to do what they do.
If they want to cater to streaming services and make
(26:09):
short songs like, they'll do that. But then you have
people like Kendrick Omar and Frank Ocean and and people
that are making these concept albums that aren't really catering
to streaming in that same way. So you're always going
to have both, I think, and I think that I'm
not really worried about great artists making great art. You know,
that's always going to exist, whether it's streaming records, CDs
(26:32):
like whatever. And and just on the on the topic
of access and technology two different types of music, do
you think that that's helping shape better music? Because now
all these artists have access to so much variety, right,
and they're not necessarily classically trained. So do you think
(26:54):
that these this exposure is helping shape better music for
the future. Yeah, I mean don't see how it could hurt.
I mean, yeah, you could potentially listen to a lot
more than you used to, and so you and the
theory get more influences than you than you used to be.
I'm of the opinion that just great artists are born
and they'll figure out a way. It doesn't matter what
(27:16):
generation they're in, doesn't matter what technologies around. Great artists
create great art. And I think that's going to be true.
It was true thousands of years ago, it's gonna be
true thousands of years from now. The medium is just
kind of a byproduct. It's secondary to great artists having something,
some kind of clay in front of them and making
(27:36):
something great out of it. And you know, the clay
itself might change, but the artist is still there. It's
it's kind of an intrinsic traits. So for the artists
that don't have the classical training, you think that they're
just born great artists. It's just raw talent that's there
since day one. Yeah. I mean, Kanye West is a
great example of this. He's not formally trained in music whatsoever,
(27:59):
like literally no knowledge of any theory from what I know,
But he got a sampler when he was when he
was a teenager, and from that sampler he found a
way to create like a Kanye West style used the
influences at that time, but more than anything, it was
just him sitting down and creating on what he had
(28:21):
in front of him at which about that time was
a sampler. So I don't think you need music training
to make great music. I think that's been proven time
and time again. I don't think it hurts, but I
don't think it is necessary at all. Where is where
are some of the places that you like to discover music?
On the topic of like streaming and the spotifyes of
the world, Yeah, I mean I used Spotify, and they
(28:45):
are scarily good at suggesting new music to me just
based on my listening history. So even yeah, it's weird
too because I'll listen to a lot of kids music,
and then I'll listen to like a lot of classical,
and then I'll listen to a lot of hip hop.
So you would think like that would be kind of
confusing for the algorithm, but they somehow serve me like
great stuff pretty consistently. But then all you like, I
(29:06):
kind of every month make it a point to listen
to like Wrap Caviar, which is one of their biggest
hip hop playlists. That's one of my favorite playlists. Yeah,
and that's like for me, like someone that's like studying.
I would say the culture, like from a historical perspective,
but like in a contemporary way because I don't really
have time, like I used to find that SoundCloud artist
(29:26):
that is getting popular or whatever. But Wrap Caviar seems
to have their kind of ear to the streets and
they serve up a lot of artists that I didn't
previously know about, and so I kind of tune into
that to just make sure I know what's going on,
even if it's not something I would personally listen to.
It's like I need to know kind of what's going on,
So I kind of use that. There's a couple of
other plays that I use for the same reason. What
(29:48):
are some of your recommended playlists? If you were to recommend,
like somebody's new to Spotify. You guys are kind of
into the same kind of music. What what would you
recommend people check out? The the official dice I podcast playlist. Actually,
it's really cool. We we did I haven't done in
a while, but I did listener generated playlists. So I
had a theme. Um one theme was a perfect song basically,
(30:13):
so every listener and I did this through social media.
Got to choose one song and it was a public playlist,
so they can go in and add their one song
that they considered to be perfect. And then now we
have a collect it's over like a hundred and something
songs and you can just put it on shuffle and
it's a great diverse playlist of dissect listeners that you know,
(30:33):
the one song that they are allowed to put on
that they consider perfect is on there. So this is
so good. I'm looking at it right now and it's
so funny. I'm not making this up. So we just
had a baby four months ago and literally every night
my husband it's like when you were describing your air
pods in listening to podcasts with the baby doing like
the late night shift. That is literally my husband right now.
(30:57):
Nice And it's so funny because the very first songs
any level, well at least what popped up for me,
is the song that they start their nighttime routine on,
like Skinny Lave is on. They just got out of bathtime,
he's getting lotion, we're making the bottle, and it's just
this is a great playlist. Yeah, it's a great one.
I returned to that one a lot. I love how
I made this whole thing a story about my son's
(31:18):
bathtime routine. I just really wanted us to feel like,
you know, we're the same call connected. Yeah we are.
I just had a baby too, well not just I
have eleven eleven month old now too, so I gotta
to relive the process. You know. So two babies. How
old is the older one? Four and a half? Oh wow,
four and half. So this is literally at the beginning
(31:39):
of all these things. And you can thank your four
and a half year old for this very successful podcast.
I'm gonna go ahead and much Actually, yeah, definitely. I
wanted to ask you kind of a random question, but
this is to me, one of my favorite things about
movies are movie scores. Do you have a favorite movie score?
I really like There Will Be Blood, which was done
by Johnny Greenwood. It's a P. T. Anderson film, and
(32:02):
actually his most recent score for another P. T. Anderson
film called Phantom Thread. That one is beautiful. I listened
to that probably more than any score soundtrack because it
just on its own sounds really great. A lot of
times when you listen to like soundtracks or scores on
just by themselves, it doesn't really make sense and things
come in and out and it's kind of weird. But
(32:23):
Phantom Thread is like beautiful just on its own. I
also like Eyes Wide Shut soundtrack. I like it more
for the way it's used. But yeah, I would say
those are those are up there? Why haven't you dissected?
Unless I missed another note a score? Now I'm actually
thinking about how to do that. It's just hard because
you don't have the visual aspect. So I think it
(32:45):
can be done. I just have to do it carefully.
So it's definitely in something I'm thinking about, but no
immediate plans to do it. I think that would be sick,
but yeah, that would be how how would one execute?
I bet you, Cole Kutch I would figure out how
to execute it. Yeah, someday I'm trying to get Spotify
to add visuals to podcasts. When that happens, then maybe
(33:05):
we can do that. So what's next for you, Cole?
Are you going to just keep making these incredible seasons
come out of Dissect for the end until the end
of time? Maybe? I don't know. If people keep listening,
I'm going to keep making them. But yeah, I mean,
I'm working with Spotify on a few other shows to
where I might not host, but I'll kind of help
creatively execute. And we're kind of brainstorming some spinoff ideas
(33:28):
from dissect Um and kind of expanding the brand. So yeah,
I'll definitely be doing more traditional seasons of Dissect, but
I also hope to be doing some things spun off
of Dissect soon too. So now that's awesome. You have
to keep us posted on that or we'll just continue
to stock you. I would like to play a little game.
(33:49):
We realize this might be a risky one because I'm
basically making Cole release an episode without even knowing it,
because I wanted him to break down syco Mode, which
to me is one of my I don't know. I
just I love that song and I literally never get
sick of it. What do you think of that song?
Before we even get into that, I like it. Yeah,
I've been listened to it in a while actually, but
(34:10):
when it came out, I was definitely listening on regular Rotation.
I think I really like it because it's just so different,
and you don't, you know, the first time you listen
to it, you don't really expect anything. I don't even
know how to do this. Should we just play it
and see what what emotions come out of Cold's soul?
And he just like breaks it all down for us,
and then we sell it to Spotify for ten million dollars. Okay,
(34:32):
let's let's try this out. We're gonna just play the
first little part and we're just gonna see how this goes.
If it's awkward and weird, this whole part gets cut
out as if it never even happened. And then we
play another game and I'm just gonna stop it after
a part where I feel like something deep can be discussed.
(34:56):
Shut it down. That's how we are ready. No, when
it's head, my dog will probably do it for Louis Bell.
That's your sally. No, you don't know nothing else. I
tried to show him. Yep, I tried to show him. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yeph.
(35:24):
Gone on. You went to pick and roll young the
flame here, sickle moment? Hate this here? What are they
in them? Booth at the gate outside? When they pulled up,
they give me loose and it feels like a good place. Okay,
how are we feeling about that intro? It's really clever.
So it's like this grand build up. There's no drums,
(35:46):
and when drums come in, it's like building to this moment.
It's interesting because they use the same two chords over
and over and over and over and over and over again,
so you're used to this pattern um, whether you know
it or not, your your brain is now hooked onto
this two chord progression. It's an entire build up all
to basically fake you out and make the actual beat
(36:07):
of the song more effective. Like I guarantee if they
didn't have that intro and you just started with the
actual beat that comes in when Travis comes in, the
song would not work, or it wouldn't work in the
massive hit that it is now because everything's pointing to
one direction. And then when they actually dropped the beat,
(36:27):
it's not the beat that you were expecting at all.
And then you also get to switch between Drake to Travis,
which is unexpected because it's like, why would you just
feature Drake for like four lines in an intro and
then go you know what I mean? So it's like
the structure itself is like I think, like the main
reason why this song works so much. There's a tempo
change too, So not only are you getting a totally
(36:49):
new beat, but that beat that does come in isn't
a different tempo, and it's faster than the one than
the two chord progression that you kind of get used to,
and that it must be intro To me, it's like
the ultimate pump fake. Yeah, it's brilliant actually, um the
way that they did that. Would you ever, because I
was I don't want to put you through this, and
(37:11):
also I don't want to downplay the amount of research
and thought that goes into every single episode that you do.
So I'm not going to make you. I won't torture
you through the entire song, but I do want to
Would you do one off singles in the future versus
just covering an entire album for songs like syco Mode
that are clearly different than the rest of the songs
(37:32):
that are released. Yeah, I definitely. That's definitely one of
the limitations of the show as it stands now is that,
obviously I just do one album at a time, and
it takes all this research and it's like a three month,
four months season. It never really made sense to me
that then drop in random episodes while we're focusing so
narrowly on one artist that just kind of to me,
(37:54):
it would take you out of the experience of that.
But that's like I was saying, like other spinoff shows
we're working on conceptualizing would allow me to not only
just do singles, but do other genres, maybe experiment with film.
But so that's kind of trying to figure out the
best way to do that because I definitely would like
(38:14):
to get out of have a form where I can
get out of the album structure and just do kind
of one off stuff. Do you think for Dissects purposes
you'll stay in the world of hip hop? Yeah, I
mean that's a plan. Now I'm kind of found in
niche and I'm not sure if it makes sense to
diverge from that right now. So again, I think it
makes more sense to start something new that I can
(38:36):
keep this dissect main show like on brand and in
the world of urban music or whatever you want to
call it. But I would definitely love to explore other
genres somehow, so working on it awesome. Does your wife
ever make any requests for albums for you to cover. No,
my wife doesn't really listen to music ironically, yeah, and
I kind of like that, Yeah, she she mostly I
(38:59):
think listen and still like whatever my daughter wants to
listen to. Now, music is not really one of her passions.
She's more of like scientific mind. So funny that you
have a whole your entire life's work right right now
is all about music that's really funny. Um, okay, So
any new artist that you're excited about that the listeners
(39:20):
should check out. Yeah, y being core Day is really good,
kind of relatively new, definitely young rapper that I think
is going to be something really special here in a
few years. He's already special now. But I just saw him, actually,
I think he was yeah, the Logic concert and um
at the Hollywood Ball I'm pretty sure he opened. Yeah,
(39:40):
I'm pretty sure he did. So. His new album, Lost
Boy is really good. There's another artist I've been listened
to lately that is definitely way more low key than
him in terms of like popularity right now. His name's Grip,
but he has a new album out. The album name
is eluding me right now, but um, it's really really good.
I would definitely check out Grip. Kind of classic rapper
(40:03):
in terms of like he takes his lyrical ability or
his lyrics very seriously, but he has like cool, modern beats,
super innovative. So Grip's definitely really good j I D.
He's more well known probably than all these guys, but
he's someone I think has a really bright future too.
It would be interesting to see if you would break
(40:23):
down any of the newer artists, give them some cloud. Yeah,
I mean, that's I would like to, But I don't
think dissects at a point where I can break artists.
I'm telling you that you are ale. Yeah, maybe with
the other the other feed. Eventually we'll do more new artists,
but for the time being, I like doing the bigger
(40:44):
artists that are making, because they make, they have the
those impacts. So like I kind of always try to
weigh the impact and the kind of artistic integrity, and
I try to choose people that are doing both. I
think all the artists that I've chosen so far doing both.
Part of the idea of a sect is like honoring
the great artists in their age right now, as if
(41:04):
they are dead, because a lot of times you don't
get these kind of critical academic style analysis until you know,
fifty years down the line. But there's something really interesting
about me, Like for me, at least approaching contemporary, like
very contemporary music. Aside from Lauren Hill, every album I've
dissected as like within five years old. They're current, but
(41:26):
they're also legends at the same time, which is which
is a hard thing to find both. Is there anyone
on that list or on your list that hasn't made
the cut yet for the series that you'd like to
dabble into. Are we going to see a jay Z
happen if jay Z ever gets on Spotify? Yeah? Are
you so? Are you not? You're not going to feature
(41:48):
anyone who's not on Spotify? Huh? You kind of can't know.
It's a it's a Spotify podcast, that doesn't I love
to jay Z eventually though he's obviously alleged, And yeah,
jay Z would be great outcast maybe on J three
thousand or something. Would definitely be up there for me.
Beyonce would be great. I like Salaunche, A lot to
(42:11):
a lot of requests for Ja Cole. Yeah, Jake Cole
would be incredible. Yeah, so he's definitely on my radar.
A lot of request for Childish Gambino. Yeah, there's I mean,
there's definitely a lot to work with. I you know,
I have a lot to choose from which is good.
So you have to put on those twenty hours, and
I feel like I just keep taking from chipping away
from your twenty hour. Right now, the podcast is going
to suck. Now it's all because I'm just wasting your
(42:33):
time here. But something that will probably make us all dumber.
Let's play a game, all right, So we're gonna play
a little game. We're gonna play a couple of seconds
from each track, and Cole is gonna being the hip
hop genius that he is, He's going to identify them immediately. Well,
let me preface by saying, I do not consider myself
(42:55):
a hip hop genius. Oh that's Snoop Dogg obviously rolling
around the street smoking Indo, sipping on jen and juice,
got it laid back with my mom or my money
and I grew up on that song. Yeah, who didn't?
(43:20):
Are we aging ourselves out? Cohole? Okay? Ready yeah? Still
forgot about? Yeah yeah. The name of the song obviously
(43:41):
eminem and forgot about, got it nailed, It's all good
by It was all a dream. I used to read
Word up magazine, something pepper and heavy tea up in
the Mamasine Baggy Juicy yeah, and it's so sad because,
like you said, he's gone already and you want to
celebrate these people while they're around. I bet you would
have covered Biggie if he was still here. Yeah, yeah
(44:03):
at that time, for sure. Your blessed Tom. Do you
know who that is? I don't. It's nas New York
state of Mind. Oh I should have got that one today.
(44:25):
It was a good day. Here is the last one. Also,
an o G classic had What if you did a
series of people that are like no longer with us
but just badass and you don't have to do their
whole albums. Listen, I can be a producer on the
(44:46):
whole thing. I'll just be there for you. That sounds
cool actually, like a legacy mini series. Do a legacy
series where you feature all the good ones that are
no longer with us, because there are tons. It's good
ideals and to steal it. Stick with me, Cole, we
could do big things, all right. Well, I had so
much fun talking to you. I know you have lots
(45:08):
to do. I'm sure your day is so busy with
you know, nursery rhymes plus a little Kendrick, Yeah, mostly
kids and Kendrick kids and Kendrick for the rest of
the day. We're so grateful that we got to squeeze
in to part of your day. We really enjoyed talking
to you. I'm so excited to see what you're cooking up.
It sounds like you've a lot going on and more
(45:29):
things to come, and I'm just I'm just excited. Now
we can say we had Cole Kutchen on the show.
It's like, you can't take that back, you know. Yeah,
that's awesome. Thanks for having me as fun. Everybody check
out Dissect podcast. You can get it on Spotify, anywhere
else that you want to guide them to get the
podcast or Spotify the move. Spotify is the I mean
it's everywhere, so I mean you can listen to wherever,
(45:50):
but you know, Spotify you actually get episodes early, you
get like bonus episodes, you get the custom playlists and
all that, so, you know, who doesn't love a good
bonus things. Behind the Influences a production of I Heart
Radio and TDC Media
Welcome to Behind the Influence, a production of I Heart
Radio and t DC Media. I'm really big advocate of like,
if you have an idea and you think it's good,
just start, like just go to be honest, I have
a structure now, but back in the day on that
first episode, there's literally no plan. I don't think you
need music training to make great music. I didn't really
(00:23):
put it out there expecting much of an audience for
a twelve hour detailed analysis of one album because it's
like pretty nerdy. You know. He's the brains behind my
favorite podcast in the universe, Dissect, where he quite literally
dissects the ship out of the most genius hip hop
albums coming from artists like Kanye West, Kendrick Lamar, Frank Oshan,
(00:43):
and Taller the creator Cole Kuchen. Ever about it, Hey,
I'm gonna steal that tagline, dissect the ship out of it? Yeah,
I mean you do dissect the ship. I mean we
could say you dissect the funk out of him too,
because you do that. You also do that, And I
think I'm allowed to swear here, right, Brian, because I
I just really front loaded here, so good to have
(01:05):
you here before we went on air. I was telling
Cole that we've been trying to get him on forever
because I've been obsessed with Dissects since since my brother
in law introduced me to it. I had a really
interesting discovery moment with podcasts in general because of Dissect.
Everyone was all on the podcast train and listening to
this podcast, and I refused to do it because one,
I have the worst a d D on Planet Earth,
(01:26):
so I feel like for me to stay interested in
something for more than one episode is very difficult. And
we listened to the entire the My beautiful, dark, twisted Fantasy,
and I was hooked. We listened to the whole thing
through and through, didn't skip a beat. Cole, how do
you feel about that? Yeah, it's funny that you you
couldn't get into podcasts, but the one that you did
(01:47):
get into was like a deep dive on a single album.
It's just that's really funny to me. I mean it's
a testament to how good the content is, because yeah,
I could have gone for like a very low commitment
thirty minute it per episode, but yeah, we went. We
went really hard with you. Yeah that's cool, that's really cool. Yeah,
it's weird thinking about people hearing or listening to my
(02:08):
voice for that long, But that's really cool. I want
to start out with some background, dissect you for a
bit before we get into the before we get into
the hard hitting hip hop questions, which I've carefully curated
from my hip hop advisors. So life wasn't always Kanye
West and podcast for you. You are classically trained as
a composer, but like, let's go even before that, how
(02:32):
you got into the world of music. Yeah, I think
my earliest memory it's like my dad actually playing the
Beatles really loud every Sunday when you cleaned the house.
I always think about that as maybe it's set me
off some certain paths because that's like the like, literally
the earliest memory I have. So there's that, and my
dad really liked music and you play it really loud
all the time, you know. I just so, I just
(02:53):
remember that. And I started playing music formally at age
thirteen when I started playing guitar, basically a right when
I picked up the guitar. My life was oriented around
music from that point and still is. So that took
me through a few different iterations of what that means.
It started as me playing in bands mostly and writing
(03:13):
music for bands. And then when I got into my
mid twenties, I went to I was self taught at
that point up until that point, but then when I
was in my mid twenties, I went to school for
classical music composition and kind of fell in love with
classical music. You know, now Dissect is really my main thing,
which is obviously a music based podcast. Yeah, just ever
since I can remember, I've been a big fan of
(03:35):
music and then also been playing music forever. So when
you went to school to become a composer or at
least study composing, what was the game plan at that
point for career goals? Was there a plan or was
it just something that you were drawn to and you
wanted to just kind of see where it took you. Yeah,
the plan, I mean, there's not really much you can
do with your degree, honestly, especially one of music compositions.
(03:58):
So I was when I graduated, I was crossroads because
I really wanted to keep going to school. I wanted
to major in music history and get a doctorate there,
but there was really nothing I can do with that degree.
And then I got really worried that I would just
be in mountains of debt, so I decided against that.
You know, I went I think I went a year
or two out of college, not using my degree at all,
(04:18):
and then I started Dissect and that ended up being
my full time job now. But yeah, there was no plan,
to be honest, I went to school for music because
I loved it and I wanted to learn more. And
I've always been less practical than I should be when
it comes to that stuff. I just kind of follow
my passions and hopefully the the rest kind of falls
into place. But I kind of just got lucky with
Dissect and was able to actually use my degree in
(04:40):
a really weird way for what I do now as
a career. So what what inspired you to kick off Dissect?
Were podcasts something that you were interested in or how
did that even come to fruition for you? Yeah, it's
kind of like amalgamation of a lot of disjointed I
would say, interests and and events and I all kind
(05:01):
of ended up merging into one. So I think the
main thing was that I had my first daughter in
two thousand and fifteen, and that's when I started to
listen to podcasts because baby sleep a lot, or they're
just kind of sitting there for the first year, so
I'd always have like podcasts going and you and I
heard that, you know, listening to people speak was good
for like brain development, so I'd always had podcasts going on.
(05:23):
That's when I really started to listen to podcasts. Uh
and like a lot of people, Serial was the podcast
that got me into podcasts. I think everyone on planet
Earth has has listened to that podcast. That was definitely
a big inspiration to the world of podcasting. But before that, actually,
I'll try to make this a short story, but essentially
I was like self taught until I went to college,
(05:44):
and I was pretty naive when I applied to the
college that I ended up going to because everyone else
had like formal training in music, had been taking lessons
for years, and I was like coming in as a
self taught musician. And I kind of snuck my way
to the program because I auditioned with pieces that I
already had written, so it kind of like a kind
(06:04):
of side skirted the fact that I couldn't read music
really well at that point. But once I got into
the program and like started taking classes, I realized I
was like way behind everyone else, and so I either
was like I was like I'm going to drop out.
It was like literally to the point where I was
either as a dropout or just like figure out something else.
So I found these things called the Great Courses. I
(06:25):
always describe them as like podcasts before their podcasts. They're
basically like online lectures taught by world famous professors that
you can download like an entire class worth of lectures
and take an entire course. There's no homework, it's not
for credits or anything. It's just for people that want
to learn. So basically they have a whole suite of
music classes you can take. So I literally downloaded every
(06:48):
single one of these music classes, which was like over
fifteen classes, and I kind of supplemented my lack of
education and music with these classes. So it'd be like
one course would be Beethoven, and you arned about Beethoven's life,
you would kind of go through all of his musical
works and kind of dissect those all that to say,
I basically formatted dissect in the vein of a Great
(07:10):
Courses class, because in those classes that you'll take a
class on Beethoven, it will be like sixteen episodes or
sixteen lectures on Beethoven, and so I was like, well,
what if I kind of just did that but for
contemporary music, because I love contemporary music and not especially
hip hop doesn't get this kind of formal analysis that
I think it should. And then I was listening to
podcasts and I was like, well, I can model it
after the Great courses and publish it as a podcast
(07:33):
because podcasts are free, and I like the idea of
just putting it out there if so anyone can listen
to it. That's kind of where the concept of Dissect
came from. How did you decide which album you would
dissect for your first season? Yeah, so that kind of
goes along with the story of my daughter being born.
So the first season of Dissect was on to Pimp
a Butterfly by Kendrick Lamar. That album came out the
(07:55):
day after my daughter was born, and I have this
like really vivid memory of her coming home. It was
the first day she came home, and I was in
her nursery, holding her in my arms and listening to
the albums on album on with headphones, and the sun
was rising because she wasn't sleeping well. So I was
just kind of sitting there with her listening to the
album and like it just had this incredible impact on me.
(08:16):
One because it's a great album, but also like this
moment was like something that became really special. So I
just kept listening and listening to that album and it
has this story. You know, there's a poem that's read
in between songs, and you know it's like comes to
this grand conclusion of him talking to Tupac. I'm like,
something's going on here. I don't really quite understand it,
and it's way too intricate for me to understand just
(08:37):
by listening alone. And so that's when the idea sparked.
It was like, how am I going to force myself
to take the time to analyze this work like I
used to do in college with like classical works. And
so that's all the stuff I just said before. That's
when it all kind of started to merge together. It's like, oh, well,
I'll do this like analysis like the Great Courses, and
I'll publish it like a podcast, and I'll do it
on Kendrick Lamar's to Pimp Up Butterfly. Okay, So it's
(09:00):
sounds like really easy now that we look back on
these five amazing seasons that you've put together. But a
lot of work goes into each of these seasons. I
think I read somewhere that it's you take about twenty
hours per episode. Yeah, that's probably a modest estimate. Yeah,
there's like a lot of research and writing the script.
(09:21):
It takes a long time. So where do we even begin,
because there's lots of layers to the way that you
dissect the album. You're sitting down, you're you decided to
pimp a Butterfly? Is case number one? Maybe the only
season you ever do because you had no idea it
was going to be this successful. What is your structure?
(09:42):
What's your game plan? Are you treating this like a
full time job? Do you have a full time job
at the moment that you have to juggle this with
and treat this like a passion project? Yeah, so I
was definitely working full time, So something I was doing
at night when the baby want to sleep, when my
wife went to sleep, I would just stay up late
and work on it. But yeah, mean to be honest,
I have a structure now, but back in the day
(10:04):
on that first episode, there's literally no plan. I just
and I tell people this all the time, I'm really
big advocate of like, if you have an idea and
you think it's good, just start, like, just go, because
a lot of people kind of get in their own
head and they you know, it's good to have a
plan and really developed stuff, but I've seen way too
many times where that hinders people from actually doing the work,
(10:27):
and then they never even start because it becomes this
big thing that they build up in their head. And
I'm just someone that's like just go, like do it,
sit down, start writing, and all that stuff will like
work itself out over the course of you just figuring out.
You know, if you force yourself to do it, it
forces you to then figure out how to do it.
So all that to say, like I literally just started
writing about the first song. I just sat down with
(10:49):
the lyrics and just started writing. Now, I would say
my process has changed a bit. There's a lot of
initial research that takes place where I kind of create
these like formal documents of sources and fact sheets and stuff.
I can refer to it as I work through the season.
So I compile just like a lot of sources and information.
(11:09):
So that takes a few weeks at least to kind
of sort through and read interviews and watch interviews and
just make sure I really know as much as I
can about the artists and the album before I start writing.
But once I get to the actual writing part, it's
really just sitting down listening obviously, but also just taking
it line by line, like writing out the lyric and
(11:29):
then just writing a paragraph or two about it. Writing
out the lyric, write another paragraph or two about It's
just like pretty straightforward. And the same with the music.
It's like I just kind of figure out the chord
progression or the production or whatever I want to talk about,
you know, just take it kind of chord by chord
and and just start writing. I'm just I really love
just jumping in and seeing where the episode or the
song takes me. Um, that's kind of my favorite part
(11:52):
because I end up always going places I will never
expect to go. You know, before I sat down, was
there a moment within the first season while you were
researching anything that caught you off guard or that you
were surprised to learn either about the music world or
about Kendrick specifically. Um, it's hard. I mean that was
like a long time ago. I think that, I mean,
(12:12):
the thing that still sticks with me now, and especially
because I'm now doing Kendrick again for season five doing Damn.
It's just how intricate his work is. I'm just so
blown away with what he's able to pack into these songs,
these overarching narratives across the whole album, but also making
songs that function as just singles or music. The way
(12:36):
that he's bridging this intellectual world, this narrative world, with
this world of like more commercial successful music is I
think it's the hardest thing to do in music. It's
really I wouldn't say easy, but it's like, if you
want to make like an arts album or something that's
really heavy and intellectual, yeah you can go do that,
but a lot of times those projects just become like,
(12:58):
you know, not a lot of people are gonna listen
to him. The appeal is limited, And so I have
really great respect for someone like Kendrick who is able
to do both. I think it's it's just incredibly hard
to do to pack that much intellectual meat into a
work but also keep it to where people want to
listen to it over and over again. Yeah. That's so
that's the kind of thing that sticks out for Kendrick, because, yeah,
(13:19):
if you You You can definitely just listen to Kendrick's music
for surface level enjoyment, you know, But those who want
to dig in deep, it's going to keep giving back.
The more and more you give it, the more and
more it's going to give you. And you can't really
say that about a lot of albums to that point.
Are you able to high level listen to anything anymore?
Can you just enjoy a song and not break it
(13:39):
down in your head because you're so used to doing
this with so many great albums? No, Yeah, I definitely
can still do that. I think it's I just get
myself into a certain mindset. If I want to think
about something I definitely like in my own head, I'm
approaching it way different than if I just want to
put something on to feel good or whatever. So for
that first album or for that first season, it was
(14:00):
there any fear surrounding maybe Kendrick here's this and doesn't
appreciate it or doesn't look at it the same way
that I do, or I fend somebody. Were there fears
that were that accompanied this really fun passion project that
you were putting all of your time, your extra time into. Yeah,
I don't, well, I don't know if it was a
fear of Kendrick himself. Definitely for the first season, there
(14:23):
was some hesitance about me being a white kid from
the suburbs dissecting, you know, specifically with to Pivot Butterfly,
it's basically Kendrick Lamar's story of escaping Compton in the
gang life that he was born into and Compton. I
definitely thought about that, you know, like, who am I
(14:43):
to kind of do that? But the more and more
I thought about it, the more and morals I kind
of approached a closed door, and on the other side
of the door was essentially what I viewed as an education.
I can open this door and attempt to learn as
much as I can about someone else's experiences. Yeah, admittedly
I have no idea what it is like, or I
can keep the door closed and then be even more
(15:06):
unfamiliar and unempathetic to that story. So ultimately I chose,
obviously to to go ahead and do it, And how
I justified it in my own head was just to
be as honest as possible, Like that's really all I
could have done is do it with as much integrity,
as much research, and just do it as much justice
as I can and go in knowing that I don't
(15:27):
actually know anything. And that's kind of like what I
liked about it was, I actually do not know anything,
and I can use this music to learn more about
an experience that I have, you know, I don't know
about through season one, That's really what became kind of
the thesis statement I guess of dissect is like, through
grese great works of art, Through these albums, you know,
that tell a very specific story about one person or
(15:49):
one person's experience. By studying these works of art, we
can actually learn more about people that we don't quite
understand or experiences that we don't haven't lived ourselves. And
that's become a really big passion of mine. And you know,
I talk about empathy a lot on the show. That's
kind of what I'm grounding dissecting is like, yeah, through
these experiences, we can get closer to people that we
(16:11):
otherwise maybe wouldn't have been as close with. So, yeah,
that was a fear, but not anymore really into that.
Did you ever hear feedback or through the grape vine
that Kendrick did hear the series? I don't know, Yeah,
I don't know, Like I know that I know his
camp knows of it. I don't know if Kendrick has listened. Uh, personally,
I'm gonna go ahead and say he has. Yeah, maybe,
I don't know. I'd be cool if you did. But
(16:33):
it's not really that shows honestly, not for him. It's
for people that it's actually really cool that people are
just actually listening to this in the first place. Because
I didn't really put it out there expecting much of
an audience. For a twelve hour detailed analysis of one album,
it's like pretty nerdy, you know. I don't know. I
think you kind of nailed it with picking the perfect
(16:55):
podcast subject. Like you said, if you have integrity and
you put research behind something, anytime you walk away from
a situation and you're learning something new, it's like you
know this information and you can name drop it at
the next dinner that you go to and you can say, well,
if somebody's talking about a song, you've just listened to
Cole's analysis of it. You can then drop some knowledge
(17:15):
on people. I think that's great. I think it's really wonderful.
Season two, you take on Mr Kanye West, and this
is when I believe you started a Patreon. Yeah. Season two.
So what what inspired you to to go the Patreon route. Yeah,
I mean at that point I got enough of audience
(17:36):
in season one. I wasn't huge, but it was something,
and I was like, well, you know, maybe I can
turn this into something. Maybe I can eventually take this
full time some way, somehow. So Patreon was an easy
way to start getting income in I like the idea
of it being kind of crowdsourced and actual listeners of
the show voluntarily giving because I had no ads at
(17:58):
that point. Yeah, Patreon just seemed to make sense. And
at that point, obviously I don't do it anymore. But
you know, by the end of season two I had
it wasn't nothing. It was getting close to something that
I could maybe quit my job, because even through season
two I was still working full time. And so it
was definitely a tool that I thought was could be useful,
and it ended up being very useful. I was able
(18:18):
to buy a new equipment, I got a new microphone.
I put all the money that I had earned on
Patreon back into the show. For that time, it was
definitely very valuable. At what point were you thinking this
could really be something that I take on full time?
Because I mean, you had a new baby, you're also
working a full time job, and you're doing something that
(18:40):
I think, I don't know a lot of people that
could do this just with this being the only focus
the story. Looking back, it's kind of crazy. On season two,
I started saying at the end, it's like, I want
to do this full time. I kind of just started
putting out there in the credits, like I'm trying to
do this full time. Support me on Patreon, putting it
out in through the universe, like I want this to happen,
(19:00):
Like I think there's something in like vocalizing intent helps
it come into fruition. And so I said that throughout
the second season. But by the end of season two,
I was exhausted. My relationship with my wife was getting
like you can imagine me working on this all the time,
having a new baby, working full time. There was some
stressors there. By the end of season two, I don't
(19:22):
think I could have done a season three without something
changing at all. Aligned perfectly because near the end of
season two, I got a call from Spotify and they're
interested in the show, and long story short, I ended
up partnering with Spotify and I was able to quit
my job, and I now, for now two years almost
done from season three on Dissect does my full time job.
(19:43):
That's incredible. So for people who don't really know how
the whole podcast world works, what advice would you give
somebody who's trying to start a podcast wants to make
it their full time thing, if you could, in hindsight
give yourself that same advice, that may have helped you
a long way, or maybe you did everything as you
should have. Yeah, I mean if I started out with
(20:05):
the intent that I wanted to do it as a job,
I wouldn't have done it in the way like I
wouldn't like in a million years, if you asked me
to make a podcast that I think would become popular
enough to quit my job and just do that for
a living, I would not have selected a twelve hour
analysis of a single album, Like it just doesn't make sense.
(20:26):
But like, because I'm passionate about it, and just because
I did what I wanted to do, I think that
has a lot to do with the success of the show.
So my my guess, my advice would be do what
you want, do what you're passionate about, format it in
a way that makes sense to you. Do what you
want to hear, make the content that you want to hear,
(20:48):
and kind of let the rest fall into place, because
I don't think there's a replacement for authenticity. I think
that's a big reason why Dissect works is because you know,
I believe what I'm saying, and I I did it
for no other reason than like just pure passion, or
at least started out that way. So yeah, I mean
I would suggest just like, do what you want to do,
(21:10):
do what you're passionate about, and don't really worry about
the rest, at least not at the beginning. I definitely
started to worry about that more and more. But conceptually, yeah,
I just did what I want. And I think a
lot of successful podcasts out there, at least from like
personality types, are just people talking about what they're passionate about.
So I would just suggest that, really, yeah, that makes
(21:32):
a lot of sense. Do you have any favorite podcasts
that you listen to? Yeah, I mean I think I
mostly listened to the NBA podcast now actually ironically it
just podcasts. It's like my job, so I listen I
think differently than most people, but NBA podcasts I've just
allow myself to just enjoy it. There's not too much
critical thinking going on. I listened to like Bill Simmons,
(21:52):
The Ringer NBA Show. I listened a lot of comedy
podcasts too. I'm definitely like an escapist now when it
comes to podcasts. That makes total sense. Yeah, um, so
you've had five You have five seasons on your belt
so far. I would imagine that other opportunities have come
through the success of Dissect, for example, I was thinking,
(22:12):
I wonder if artists are now approaching you to advise.
Is that something that has happened. I don't know about advise,
I mean get art artists requesting that I know, do
their album next or whatever. Oh that's interesting. Yeah, I
didn't mean that. I meant like, because you so critically
and perfectly break down what makes an album incredible, Like
(22:34):
if I were in the music space, I would want
to pick your brain and help me figure out how
to create a genius album like the ones that you've
already covered. No, nothing, nothing like that. Really, I'm genuinely shocked.
Have you heard from any of these artists that you've covered,
whether it's Frank Ocean, Kanye Tyler, the Creator, have you
heard from any of them? Being like, yo, I heard
your podcast. Love it. I've never talked to anyone directly.
(22:57):
I've definitely heard things through the grape vine. I know
Tyler the creator retweeted some stuff so and I heard
that he did listen and that he did like it.
I know Frank Ocean, I'm pretty sure he listened to
at least a first episode. To me, like Silence is
the best. To be honest with you, that's much more
likely that an artist will come after me because they
don't like it than if they just like it or
(23:19):
just think gets cool and just like okay, that's cool,
Like it's it's content about me and they don't think
much of it. I'm much rather have that than them
coming after me because I got something terribly wrong or whatever.
So I'm wait, I'm really good. I'm good with Silence.
You featured Kendrick twice, Kanye once, but he did just
(23:40):
come out with a very interesting album. Are there any
plans to potentially breakdown Jesus Is King? I don't think so.
I mean, it's too short for one. If I was
going to return to Kanye, I don't think it would
be that one. You know, I like it. I mean
it's still formulating thoughts. That just came out a couple
of days ago, But I don't know if that would
be the one I would do if I went back
(24:00):
to Kanye. If you went back to Kanye, which album
would it be? Jesus for sure, that's my favorite one.
So music is discovered and consumed in so many different
ways now, especially with all the advances and technology, streaming platforms,
social media, and musicians more and more are making music
catering to be successful on those platforms. What do you
(24:21):
think this means for the music world historically? I don't
really view it as any different than all the trends
that happened in the past. You know, like people used
to form out there albums on how much of you
know you can fit on a vinyl and side A
and side B. They would, you know, if you look
at old track lists are way different than they are today,
(24:42):
where it's like there's a very deliberate split between side
and side B, and you'll have strong singles that start
side B that come on the middle of the album,
which if you didn't have that division between side and
side BE on a record, like they would definitely not
do the track listing like that. So I kind of
see streaming acting in a similar way where it's like, yeah,
(25:03):
some artists are figuring out that shorter songs will get
more streams, and so you have like Little Nosax and
even Kanye's new record, like most of the songs are
two minutes, two minutes thirty seconds, so they're kind of
like catering to this new world. But songs were that short,
like back in the fifties and sixties, that was pretty normal.
It wasn't ntil like the seventies that people started really elongating.
(25:25):
Maybe a little bit that's in the sixties, but I
don't know. I mean, I just everything cyclical. Things come
and go. Like I think it's great that streaming allows
people to listen to more artists than ever before. There's
a lot of cynical things you can say about streaming too,
and that's totally fine and probably valid. But the convenience
for the consumer, I would say it's pretty paramount, and
I think that's evident in that no one buys CDs anymore.
(25:47):
Spotify or Apple Music they offered a service, but it
was the consumer that really changed things. Like we didn't
have to use streaming, we could have kept buying CDs,
but it just came a point in history where that
just didn't make sense anymore. I tend to view it
from a historical perspective, from more of an optimistic perspective,
and just artists are going to do what they do.
If they want to cater to streaming services and make
(26:09):
short songs like, they'll do that. But then you have
people like Kendrick Omar and Frank Ocean and and people
that are making these concept albums that aren't really catering
to streaming in that same way. So you're always going
to have both, I think, and I think that I'm
not really worried about great artists making great art. You know,
that's always going to exist, whether it's streaming records, CDs
(26:32):
like whatever. And and just on the on the topic
of access and technology two different types of music, do
you think that that's helping shape better music? Because now
all these artists have access to so much variety, right,
and they're not necessarily classically trained. So do you think
(26:54):
that these this exposure is helping shape better music for
the future. Yeah, I mean don't see how it could hurt.
I mean, yeah, you could potentially listen to a lot
more than you used to, and so you and the
theory get more influences than you than you used to be.
I'm of the opinion that just great artists are born
and they'll figure out a way. It doesn't matter what
(27:16):
generation they're in, doesn't matter what technologies around. Great artists
create great art. And I think that's going to be true.
It was true thousands of years ago, it's gonna be
true thousands of years from now. The medium is just
kind of a byproduct. It's secondary to great artists having something,
some kind of clay in front of them and making
(27:36):
something great out of it. And you know, the clay
itself might change, but the artist is still there. It's
it's kind of an intrinsic traits. So for the artists
that don't have the classical training, you think that they're
just born great artists. It's just raw talent that's there
since day one. Yeah. I mean, Kanye West is a
great example of this. He's not formally trained in music whatsoever,
(27:59):
like literally no knowledge of any theory from what I know,
But he got a sampler when he was when he
was a teenager, and from that sampler he found a
way to create like a Kanye West style used the
influences at that time, but more than anything, it was
just him sitting down and creating on what he had
(28:21):
in front of him at which about that time was
a sampler. So I don't think you need music training
to make great music. I think that's been proven time
and time again. I don't think it hurts, but I
don't think it is necessary at all. Where is where
are some of the places that you like to discover music?
On the topic of like streaming and the spotifyes of
the world, Yeah, I mean I used Spotify, and they
(28:45):
are scarily good at suggesting new music to me just
based on my listening history. So even yeah, it's weird
too because I'll listen to a lot of kids music,
and then I'll listen to like a lot of classical,
and then I'll listen to a lot of hip hop.
So you would think like that would be kind of
confusing for the algorithm, but they somehow serve me like
great stuff pretty consistently. But then all you like, I
(29:06):
kind of every month make it a point to listen
to like Wrap Caviar, which is one of their biggest
hip hop playlists. That's one of my favorite playlists. Yeah,
and that's like for me, like someone that's like studying.
I would say the culture, like from a historical perspective,
but like in a contemporary way because I don't really
have time, like I used to find that SoundCloud artist
(29:26):
that is getting popular or whatever. But Wrap Caviar seems
to have their kind of ear to the streets and
they serve up a lot of artists that I didn't
previously know about, and so I kind of tune into
that to just make sure I know what's going on,
even if it's not something I would personally listen to.
It's like I need to know kind of what's going on,
So I kind of use that. There's a couple of
other plays that I use for the same reason. What
(29:48):
are some of your recommended playlists? If you were to recommend,
like somebody's new to Spotify. You guys are kind of
into the same kind of music. What what would you
recommend people check out? The the official dice I podcast playlist. Actually,
it's really cool. We we did I haven't done in
a while, but I did listener generated playlists. So I
had a theme. Um one theme was a perfect song basically,
(30:13):
so every listener and I did this through social media.
Got to choose one song and it was a public playlist,
so they can go in and add their one song
that they considered to be perfect. And then now we
have a collect it's over like a hundred and something
songs and you can just put it on shuffle and
it's a great diverse playlist of dissect listeners that you know,
(30:33):
the one song that they are allowed to put on
that they consider perfect is on there. So this is
so good. I'm looking at it right now and it's
so funny. I'm not making this up. So we just
had a baby four months ago and literally every night
my husband it's like when you were describing your air
pods in listening to podcasts with the baby doing like
the late night shift. That is literally my husband right now.
(30:57):
Nice And it's so funny because the very first songs
any level, well at least what popped up for me,
is the song that they start their nighttime routine on,
like Skinny Lave is on. They just got out of bathtime,
he's getting lotion, we're making the bottle, and it's just
this is a great playlist. Yeah, it's a great one.
I returned to that one a lot. I love how
I made this whole thing a story about my son's
(31:18):
bathtime routine. I just really wanted us to feel like,
you know, we're the same call connected. Yeah we are.
I just had a baby too, well not just I
have eleven eleven month old now too, so I gotta
to relive the process. You know. So two babies. How
old is the older one? Four and a half? Oh wow,
four and half. So this is literally at the beginning
(31:39):
of all these things. And you can thank your four
and a half year old for this very successful podcast.
I'm gonna go ahead and much Actually, yeah, definitely. I
wanted to ask you kind of a random question, but
this is to me, one of my favorite things about
movies are movie scores. Do you have a favorite movie score?
I really like There Will Be Blood, which was done
by Johnny Greenwood. It's a P. T. Anderson film, and
(32:02):
actually his most recent score for another P. T. Anderson
film called Phantom Thread. That one is beautiful. I listened
to that probably more than any score soundtrack because it
just on its own sounds really great. A lot of
times when you listen to like soundtracks or scores on
just by themselves, it doesn't really make sense and things
come in and out and it's kind of weird. But
(32:23):
Phantom Thread is like beautiful just on its own. I
also like Eyes Wide Shut soundtrack. I like it more
for the way it's used. But yeah, I would say
those are those are up there? Why haven't you dissected?
Unless I missed another note a score? Now I'm actually
thinking about how to do that. It's just hard because
you don't have the visual aspect. So I think it
(32:45):
can be done. I just have to do it carefully.
So it's definitely in something I'm thinking about, but no
immediate plans to do it. I think that would be sick,
but yeah, that would be how how would one execute?
I bet you, Cole Kutch I would figure out how
to execute it. Yeah, someday I'm trying to get Spotify
to add visuals to podcasts. When that happens, then maybe
(33:05):
we can do that. So what's next for you, Cole?
Are you going to just keep making these incredible seasons
come out of Dissect for the end until the end
of time? Maybe? I don't know. If people keep listening,
I'm going to keep making them. But yeah, I mean,
I'm working with Spotify on a few other shows to
where I might not host, but I'll kind of help
creatively execute. And we're kind of brainstorming some spinoff ideas
(33:28):
from dissect Um and kind of expanding the brand. So yeah,
I'll definitely be doing more traditional seasons of Dissect, but
I also hope to be doing some things spun off
of Dissect soon too. So now that's awesome. You have
to keep us posted on that or we'll just continue
to stock you. I would like to play a little game.
(33:49):
We realize this might be a risky one because I'm
basically making Cole release an episode without even knowing it,
because I wanted him to break down syco Mode, which
to me is one of my I don't know. I
just I love that song and I literally never get
sick of it. What do you think of that song?
Before we even get into that, I like it. Yeah,
I've been listened to it in a while actually, but
(34:10):
when it came out, I was definitely listening on regular Rotation.
I think I really like it because it's just so different,
and you don't, you know, the first time you listen
to it, you don't really expect anything. I don't even
know how to do this. Should we just play it
and see what what emotions come out of Cold's soul?
And he just like breaks it all down for us,
and then we sell it to Spotify for ten million dollars. Okay,
(34:32):
let's let's try this out. We're gonna just play the
first little part and we're just gonna see how this goes.
If it's awkward and weird, this whole part gets cut
out as if it never even happened. And then we
play another game and I'm just gonna stop it after
a part where I feel like something deep can be discussed.
(34:56):
Shut it down. That's how we are ready. No, when
it's head, my dog will probably do it for Louis Bell.
That's your sally. No, you don't know nothing else. I
tried to show him. Yep, I tried to show him. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yeph.
(35:24):
Gone on. You went to pick and roll young the
flame here, sickle moment? Hate this here? What are they
in them? Booth at the gate outside? When they pulled up,
they give me loose and it feels like a good place. Okay,
how are we feeling about that intro? It's really clever.
So it's like this grand build up. There's no drums,
(35:46):
and when drums come in, it's like building to this moment.
It's interesting because they use the same two chords over
and over and over and over and over and over again,
so you're used to this pattern um, whether you know
it or not, your your brain is now hooked onto
this two chord progression. It's an entire build up all
to basically fake you out and make the actual beat
(36:07):
of the song more effective. Like I guarantee if they
didn't have that intro and you just started with the
actual beat that comes in when Travis comes in, the
song would not work, or it wouldn't work in the
massive hit that it is now because everything's pointing to
one direction. And then when they actually dropped the beat,
(36:27):
it's not the beat that you were expecting at all.
And then you also get to switch between Drake to Travis,
which is unexpected because it's like, why would you just
feature Drake for like four lines in an intro and
then go you know what I mean? So it's like
the structure itself is like I think, like the main
reason why this song works so much. There's a tempo
change too, So not only are you getting a totally
(36:49):
new beat, but that beat that does come in isn't
a different tempo, and it's faster than the one than
the two chord progression that you kind of get used to,
and that it must be intro To me, it's like
the ultimate pump fake. Yeah, it's brilliant actually, um the
way that they did that. Would you ever, because I
was I don't want to put you through this, and
(37:11):
also I don't want to downplay the amount of research
and thought that goes into every single episode that you do.
So I'm not going to make you. I won't torture
you through the entire song, but I do want to
Would you do one off singles in the future versus
just covering an entire album for songs like syco Mode
that are clearly different than the rest of the songs
(37:32):
that are released. Yeah, I definitely. That's definitely one of
the limitations of the show as it stands now is that,
obviously I just do one album at a time, and
it takes all this research and it's like a three month,
four months season. It never really made sense to me
that then drop in random episodes while we're focusing so
narrowly on one artist that just kind of to me,
(37:54):
it would take you out of the experience of that.
But that's like I was saying, like other spinoff shows
we're working on conceptualizing would allow me to not only
just do singles, but do other genres, maybe experiment with film.
But so that's kind of trying to figure out the
best way to do that because I definitely would like
(38:14):
to get out of have a form where I can
get out of the album structure and just do kind
of one off stuff. Do you think for Dissects purposes
you'll stay in the world of hip hop? Yeah, I
mean that's a plan. Now I'm kind of found in
niche and I'm not sure if it makes sense to
diverge from that right now. So again, I think it
makes more sense to start something new that I can
(38:36):
keep this dissect main show like on brand and in
the world of urban music or whatever you want to
call it. But I would definitely love to explore other
genres somehow, so working on it awesome. Does your wife
ever make any requests for albums for you to cover. No,
my wife doesn't really listen to music ironically, yeah, and
I kind of like that, Yeah, she she mostly I
(38:59):
think listen and still like whatever my daughter wants to
listen to. Now, music is not really one of her passions.
She's more of like scientific mind. So funny that you
have a whole your entire life's work right right now
is all about music that's really funny. Um, okay, So
any new artist that you're excited about that the listeners
(39:20):
should check out. Yeah, y being core Day is really good,
kind of relatively new, definitely young rapper that I think
is going to be something really special here in a
few years. He's already special now. But I just saw him, actually,
I think he was yeah, the Logic concert and um
at the Hollywood Ball I'm pretty sure he opened. Yeah,
(39:40):
I'm pretty sure he did. So. His new album, Lost
Boy is really good. There's another artist I've been listened
to lately that is definitely way more low key than
him in terms of like popularity right now. His name's Grip,
but he has a new album out. The album name
is eluding me right now, but um, it's really really good.
I would definitely check out Grip. Kind of classic rapper
(40:03):
in terms of like he takes his lyrical ability or
his lyrics very seriously, but he has like cool, modern beats,
super innovative. So Grip's definitely really good j I D.
He's more well known probably than all these guys, but
he's someone I think has a really bright future too.
It would be interesting to see if you would break
(40:23):
down any of the newer artists, give them some cloud. Yeah,
I mean, that's I would like to, But I don't
think dissects at a point where I can break artists.
I'm telling you that you are ale. Yeah, maybe with
the other the other feed. Eventually we'll do more new artists,
but for the time being, I like doing the bigger
(40:44):
artists that are making, because they make, they have the
those impacts. So like I kind of always try to
weigh the impact and the kind of artistic integrity, and
I try to choose people that are doing both. I
think all the artists that I've chosen so far doing both.
Part of the idea of a sect is like honoring
the great artists in their age right now, as if
(41:04):
they are dead, because a lot of times you don't
get these kind of critical academic style analysis until you know,
fifty years down the line. But there's something really interesting
about me, Like for me, at least approaching contemporary, like
very contemporary music. Aside from Lauren Hill, every album I've
dissected as like within five years old. They're current, but
(41:26):
they're also legends at the same time, which is which
is a hard thing to find both. Is there anyone
on that list or on your list that hasn't made
the cut yet for the series that you'd like to
dabble into. Are we going to see a jay Z
happen if jay Z ever gets on Spotify? Yeah? Are
you so? Are you not? You're not going to feature
(41:48):
anyone who's not on Spotify? Huh? You kind of can't know.
It's a it's a Spotify podcast, that doesn't I love
to jay Z eventually though he's obviously alleged, And yeah,
jay Z would be great outcast maybe on J three
thousand or something. Would definitely be up there for me.
Beyonce would be great. I like Salaunche, A lot to
(42:11):
a lot of requests for Ja Cole. Yeah, Jake Cole
would be incredible. Yeah, so he's definitely on my radar.
A lot of request for Childish Gambino. Yeah, there's I mean,
there's definitely a lot to work with. I you know,
I have a lot to choose from which is good.
So you have to put on those twenty hours, and
I feel like I just keep taking from chipping away
from your twenty hour. Right now, the podcast is going
to suck. Now it's all because I'm just wasting your
(42:33):
time here. But something that will probably make us all dumber.
Let's play a game, all right, So we're gonna play
a little game. We're gonna play a couple of seconds
from each track, and Cole is gonna being the hip
hop genius that he is, He's going to identify them immediately. Well,
let me preface by saying, I do not consider myself
(42:55):
a hip hop genius. Oh that's Snoop Dogg obviously rolling
around the street smoking Indo, sipping on jen and juice,
got it laid back with my mom or my money
and I grew up on that song. Yeah, who didn't?
(43:20):
Are we aging ourselves out? Cohole? Okay? Ready yeah? Still
forgot about? Yeah yeah. The name of the song obviously
(43:41):
eminem and forgot about, got it nailed, It's all good
by It was all a dream. I used to read
Word up magazine, something pepper and heavy tea up in
the Mamasine Baggy Juicy yeah, and it's so sad because,
like you said, he's gone already and you want to
celebrate these people while they're around. I bet you would
have covered Biggie if he was still here. Yeah, yeah
(44:03):
at that time, for sure. Your blessed Tom. Do you
know who that is? I don't. It's nas New York
state of Mind. Oh I should have got that one today.
(44:25):
It was a good day. Here is the last one. Also,
an o G classic had What if you did a
series of people that are like no longer with us
but just badass and you don't have to do their
whole albums. Listen, I can be a producer on the
(44:46):
whole thing. I'll just be there for you. That sounds
cool actually, like a legacy mini series. Do a legacy
series where you feature all the good ones that are
no longer with us, because there are tons. It's good
ideals and to steal it. Stick with me, Cole, we
could do big things, all right. Well, I had so
much fun talking to you. I know you have lots
(45:08):
to do. I'm sure your day is so busy with
you know, nursery rhymes plus a little Kendrick, Yeah, mostly
kids and Kendrick kids and Kendrick for the rest of
the day. We're so grateful that we got to squeeze
in to part of your day. We really enjoyed talking
to you. I'm so excited to see what you're cooking up.
It sounds like you've a lot going on and more
(45:29):
things to come, and I'm just I'm just excited. Now
we can say we had Cole Kutchen on the show.
It's like, you can't take that back, you know. Yeah,
that's awesome. Thanks for having me as fun. Everybody check
out Dissect podcast. You can get it on Spotify, anywhere
else that you want to guide them to get the
podcast or Spotify the move. Spotify is the I mean
it's everywhere, so I mean you can listen to wherever,
(45:50):
but you know, Spotify you actually get episodes early, you
get like bonus episodes, you get the custom playlists and
all that, so, you know, who doesn't love a good
bonus things. Behind the Influences a production of I Heart
Radio and TDC Media
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