July 29, 2025 • 35 mins
Heather Avis is a parent of two children with Down Syndrome. She shares her powerful adoption story and her mission to shift the narratives around special needs. She also has great perspective on helping kids develop resilience and embrace what makes them different.
Her new children's book, I Like You So Much, is available wherever books are sold.
In the Q&A, a listener writes in wondering how she can get her partner on board with planning travel now that they have a 5-year old.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in late July of twenty twenty five.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Heather Avis, who is
a New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, podcaster, and
down syndrome advocates. So we're going to talk about her
really important work that she is doing. So, Sarah, do
you remember, I mean this whole thing of disability advocacy
(01:06):
and things like that. I mean, when you were growing up,
do you remember being around a lot of children who
had differences.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I don't remember a lot of it, but the people
that I were around definitely made big impressions on me.
And I'm super excited for this work that Heather is doing,
because I think the more visibility and the more people
are talking about this stuff, the better. My memories are
very specific. We had one of my fellow campers when
I was in day camp was born with one arm,
(01:32):
and I just like, remember I was little, and the
first time I saw her, I was like, well, that's different.
And then we just got completely used to it. I mean,
I'd see her year after year, and like I'd notice
how other people noticed it, and I'm like, oh, right,
that's different.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
But for me, it was just so normal at that point.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So and you said she was a swimmer, That's what
I love.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Like she.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I remembered her being a very fast swimmer, So yeah,
she she had no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
She managed to figure that out. I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I love it hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
And there was also a little girl when I was
a counselor at the same camp that had cystic fibrosis,
and I didn't know what the condition was, but we
had to give her her enzymes at meals and I
just remember thinking, oh, she seems completely fine, and they say,
this is like a whole thing. And then of course
I learned later as a pediatric resident that it can
be so incredibly serious, especially back then. Now there are
(02:23):
more treatments for many of these things. But yeah, I
just this work that Heather is doing. I'm just so
happy because I just think the more people talk about it,
the more people see others in society with different needs,
and the more that she can change perspectives on it
what might mean to have a difference the better.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm very excited to hear what she
has to say, so please enjoy this interview where Sarah's
talking with Heather Avis.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, I am so excited to welcome Heather Avis to
the show. She is a New York Times bestselling author,
public speaker, podcaster, and down syndrome advocate, and she has
an interesting story as well as she has really built
a beautiful platform around changing certain narratives that I believe
has benefited so many people. We've had requests for topics
(03:09):
like this, So welcome Heather. I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
On the show.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Thank you so much. It's a thrill to be with
you today.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, I think I've read a little bit about your
kind of origin story and how your passion grew from
some life experiences, but our listeners might not be as familiar.
So why don't you go ahead and give us your background,
Like what got everything started?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Sure? So I am from southern California and I lived
there with my husband and three kids. And my husband
and I got married many years ago. I was twenty
years old. Think we're about to sea our twenty third anniversary.
And I had one thing I wanted in life, and
that was to be a mom. I wanted that more
(03:51):
desperately than anything else. And early on into our marriage,
when we started to try to have kids, we couldn't
have kids naturally, and we ended up towards walking towards
the path of adoption. It's a very long story of
infertility and getting to that point, but that was where
we felt led, is to walk down the path towards adoption.
And when we were pursuing an adoption plan, when you
(04:14):
pursue adoption plan, you get to check off what you
are open to and not in a potential future child.
It's like a very wild, surreal checklist. And so we
had said no to any major health issues. Ultimately, we
wanted a healthy infant. Well fast forward, we've been a
waiting family for over a year, and we learned about
(04:35):
a little baby with Down syndrome who'd been placed with
our agency. And when I learned about her, it wasn't
like are you interested? It was more of an update
of what's happening. Because we had said no to Down syndrome.
We had said no, she had a congenital heart defect,
she had a slew of medical issues. We said no
to all of those things on paper. But when I
learned about her, it was one of those moments like
(04:56):
I wish I had never heard it because I couldn't
unkno it and the knowing of it changed something in me.
And I call like the spark in my heart. And
so again, fast forward, so many details, but we ended
up saying yes to our daughter. Macy named her Mason
a caller Macy. And she came home at three months old,
(05:17):
like I said, with a big old hole in her heart.
She had opened her surgery a month later, she was
on oxygen medication. All kinds of health issues are medically
fragile baby, and she had Down syndrome. And I call
her my scariest and best Yes, I was so terrified
of everything she was on paper. And then she came
home and wrecked me and changed me forever and for
(05:38):
the better, and then that we pursued two more adoption
plans after she came home. We are our middle daughter, Truly,
so Macy is now seventeen. We have our middle daughter, Truly,
who's fourteen and she doesn't have any disabilities. And then
our youngest son, August is eleven and he also has
Down syndrome, and that's an.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I see him in the background, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Blogging about it, and that turned into a book deal,
and then Instagram came around and I started sharing what
I call shifting narratives and shouting worth and I've had
the opportunity to make my life's vision and a career
out of showing the world how incredible people's disabilities are.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I am so curious.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I'm actually a pediatric endochronologist, so I do care for
a good chunk of kids with Down syndrome, and I
am so interested to hear about the narrative shifting. I mean, like,
the only thing I can come up with, specifically is
that they're so different, like there's not one prototype, Like
kids have different challenges and different medical issues that come
(06:40):
with it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
But I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
From you, who obviously is much more of an expert
than me. What are the narratives that you feel like
have needed shifting and what does that mean to you.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yes, my kids have lots of specialty doctors, but we
don't see in dem so that's when we don't see.
But when I learned about our daughter Macy, like I
was sharing, I call her my scariest and best. Yes,
the scary part was and why we said no to
her on paper, no to a child like her, was
because the narrative around Down syndrome is so negative. You
(07:12):
hear a lot of parents get in utero or at
birth diagnosis and the feeling that they feel you almost always,
not one hundred percent of the time, but most of
the time is one of sadness and grief and dread
and despair and all of these negative feelings that are
connected to this diagnosis. Most of those people, the majority,
have never experienced a person with Down syndrome. So it's
(07:33):
a narrative that society has been creating and feeding us
saying Down syndrome equals bad, not that blatantly sometimes, but
it's just our perspective in the stories and what we
know or don't know about Down syndrome. And I would say,
disability at large, our society has decided disability equals bad,
and so if it's bad, then it's we want to
(07:55):
avoid it. And then I bring this baby girl home,
and I remember that very first night, right out. We
picked her up from the agency, like from the office,
and we met the foster family there. She wasn't living
at the agency, and we bring her home and I
walk her upstairs and she's already fallen asleep on my
shoulder and I sat in the corner with this baby.
(08:17):
She was so little, she was less than ten pounds
at three months old. And I'm looking at her face
and I'm in love, right, And two weeks prior, I
was terrified and I'm thinking, I look at her and
I said out loud, I can't remember what I was
so afraid of, like, look at this baby. And then
that started to create a new story, a new narrative
in my own life. And as she started to get
(08:39):
a little bit older, within the first couple of years
of her life, I'd find myself doing life, going to
the grocery store or the park, lots of doctor's appointments
just in our community, and most of the time she
was the only person with down syndrome in a space
almost always. And I remember being at the park one
day and watching her pole to stand on a piece
of ground equipment, and she was probably two, like most
(09:03):
kids are walking and just being elated and looking around
at the other people like do you see thinking like
do you see what's happening? And it's in their minds
like no big deal, right, A two year old's pulling
themselves this stand. And the feeling that overcame me was
how lucky I was that she was mine and how
afraid I was of her, like remembering that narrative, and
(09:23):
so it really started me on this mission to tell
the bigger, truer story of down syndrome. And it's not
one of rainbows and unicorns, Like it's hard. There's a
lot of things that are hard. But life is hard,
and parenting is hard, and raising a child is really
really hard, and being a human can be really really hard.
But heart isn't bad. Heart is just hard. And so
(09:45):
I wanted to tell this bigger story and I did
that initially by sharing just our experience, like a day
in the life. I did that with things like Instagram,
and then I've had the opportunity to meet hundreds and
hundreds of families in the Down syndrome community, and oftentimes
they felt it was a very similar narrative and like
we were here, which was terrified, and we came here,
(10:08):
which feels lucky. And I started using this phrase the
lucky few, feeling like few of us love someone with
Down syndrome, and those of us who do are so lucky.
And as I threw that into the world through my language,
through my writing, through a hashtag, the downs in your
community just grabbed a hold of it with both fists, like, yes,
this is it, this is it, this is it again.
(10:29):
Not one hundred percent of us, and that's fine. We
all have our own unique lived experiences. But for the
most part, that idea of feeling so unbelievably lucky to
love a person with Down syndrome has been the biggest
narrative shift for me.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Oh my gosh, I think you this is a record
for the most chills I've gotten the intro of a
guest that we've ever had, because that was just like,
so beautiful and so true. And I think a lot
of it is about like expectations versus reality, and the
fact that you've been able to share your reality and
how beautiful it's been, and all the different realities that
look different ways out there, but still that it doesn't
(11:06):
make them different, doesn't mean less than it's just like different.
I can see how much value that must be adding
to the whole community.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, I mean my life is so deeply enriched by
loving a person with a disability, like coming alongside in
mutuality with my friends who have disability, being my kids parents,
in honoring who they are with disability. It's completely changed
how I am as a person for better, always for better.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Well, we're going to take a quick break and when
we get back, we're going to talk a little bit
about differences, since I think naturally when you have somebody
that might have some outward physical differences or maybe they're
invisible differences, that invites questioning from the world, and you
are a great person to answer questions the rest of
us as to how to best handle that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So we will be right back.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
All right, we are back, and I think we'll have
to go back to the stuff you were just talking
about because it was so powerful. But I also want
to talk about comparison, because I think you have a
lot to say in this realm, and a lot of
it does relate to children that have various.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Types of differences.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
So kids are going to compare themselves to their classmates,
to a kid that might look different than them or
achieves them milestone at a different age, et cetera. I can't
imagine that you can stop the comparison, or at least
it's hard, because I think.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
It's partly human nature.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
But how along with the comparison, can you help there
be like a celebration of uniquenesses instead of just anxiety
or negative feelings about the differences. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think it was Roosevelt who said comparison is the
thief of all joy, and not the first time I
heard that. I'm like, yeah, that is so true. How
much joy comparison has stolen from me? And like you mentioned,
I think it's just a natural thing to do. I
don't think we need to feel shame about it. I
think with how how we let it affect the rest
(13:15):
of who we are and how we live life, I
think is where the rubber hits the road. But to
feel that like jolt of huh, like I noticed this
is different from this, I noticed this person can this
person can't like that's just being observant. You're going to
be comparing. There's places where comparison offers incredible growth for
so many different people and different experiences, But I do
(13:38):
think the majority, especially in parenting, I'm I'm sure you
can relate to this. Like, man, the amount of times
that as parents and caregivers we look at what this
kid to our right and left is doing, and then
we think, if only we change their diet, get more sleep,
watch this show, Like we can list the things that
were like, if we do these things, then maybe my
kid can be more fill in the blank, right, So
(14:01):
that's all happening for me with my experience. I can
tell a quick story with my daughter Macy. I remember
initially comparing her to her non disabled peers and knowing
that she was going to be delayed from the very beginning,
like almost every milestone was going to take her a lot,
a lot longer. So there was like a gentleness in
(14:21):
that comparison. And then we got into the down syndrome
world more and comparing her to her peers with down syndrome,
and that just created shame and disappointment and took all
my joy awake because it's like, wait, this kid also
has Down syndrome and they're walking, and Mason hasn't taken
her first step. What's wrong with my daughter? That's right
(14:45):
with this person. Okay, So then fast forward a little bit.
I remember Macy was five and we were at a
learning program for families with Down syndrome specifically, and she
was working with her peers and professionals. And then I
was in a group of parents and we were talking
about telling time, like helping our kids with math and
time telling or something like that, and the woman in
(15:05):
charge said something along the lines of, isn't that why
we do all of this meaning, like these learning programs
and the therapies and all of this learning so that
our kids can be more like the typical peers. And
it stopped me in my tracks and really changed the
trajectory for me of how I parented and how I
viewed my children, and I viewed myself in that I thought, wait, no,
(15:27):
my goal for my daughter with Down syndrome is for
her to be her best self. But I had never
stopped to think through that. I had never stopped to
realize that until that moment when it stopped me and
I thought, wait, she has Down syndrome. It's a beautiful
part of her. I don't want her to not have
down syndrome, And what an exhausting thing for her to
(15:49):
have to spend her entire life doing to be more
like someone else. No, I want Macy to be Macy.
And that right there became, like I said, this defining moment,
and as I moved forward in all my parenting, and
still today, it's almost like this tether that I go
back to because the comparison will pull me right and
pull me left. But this remembrance of we're going to
(16:09):
pursue any kind of activity or special way of eating
or therapy with this goal in mind, that my children
are their best selves, not someone else's best self. And
that little like nugget, as simple as it sounds, has
been so freeing in how I parent, and freeing for
(16:32):
me too, write like if I'm doing my best, that
has to be enough, because if it's not, we're just
going to fail, fail, fail fail. Like all we can
all be is our best, and our best is uniquely ours.
So I find so much freedom and just like exhale
in that truth.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And everything that you said to me would apply also
to other differences learning differences, physical differences, even just different
relative strengths that your various kids might have or that
your kids might have in comparison to their peers.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah, I have to.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Also ask how within the family, now you have kids
that have more typical pace of development and kids that
have Down syndrome, do you have best practices for families
navigating this because I feel like that in itself can
be tricky. It's the kid against their peers. But I mean,
I don't want to use the word against. Obviously that's
(17:29):
what we're trying to avoid here. But as thoughts come
up in either kid in the Down syndrome child or
the typical child, and they wonder about these things, what
are some great ways to talk about it or address it?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Such a good question, And sometimes there's questions when we
talk about like howe the how to's, how can we
that have nice steps for us? Or like these laid
out tools I have found and I can give some
little pointers, but that when it comes to something like comparison,
what we're talking about, it's such a posture of the heart.
(18:02):
I think it starts with an internal investigation of what
is it that I want for my child? Like simply
starting they're like, what is it that I want for
my child? And hopefully we get to the point where
we say I want them to be their best self,
because anything outside of that is unachievable. Anything outside of
(18:22):
that is going to strip them and ourselves as their parents,
of our humanity, of our dignity, because we're trying to
be something that is that is impossible, and we're putting
our value and worth on the things we can or
cannot do, which can be stripped from us in any
second of our lives. And that not to be like
an alarmist or whatever the word would be, but that's
(18:44):
the reality that at any moment in our lives, everything
that we're capable of can be stripped from us. And
so then where does our value and worth lie? And
that has been the gift of the journey of being
my kid's parents, and starting with being oldest may see
is that she brought me to that place where I
asked myself, what is it that makes her have value
(19:05):
and worth? What do I want for her? And then
the second part of that question is what gives a
human value in life or value and worth? What is
it that we decide make somebody worthy of living a
honorable life with community and belonging in love. And for me,
it came down. I had to strip it down very
(19:25):
very like to the breath, tas of it's the heart
beating your chest, the breath and your lungs and can
you love and be loved? And if those three things
are true of a life, then that life has meaning
and value. That there's not a thing that we need
to do or not do that's going to take away
or add to that meaning and value. It's just inherent.
It just exists because you exist. And I believe that
(19:50):
with my whole heart for my kids. And with comparison,
it's interesting because Macie as my oldest with Down syndrome,
My son August, who's eleven, is six years younger, and
there's skill sets he also has Down syndrome are so different.
And August has surpassed his sister who's six years older
than him in many ways as a person with Down syndrome,
(20:11):
in a lot of his skill set that he has
a lot of his abilities. But it's not something that
rattles me or upsets me at this point because of
that foundation that I had the opportunity to lay all
those years ago, when Macey was so young, and then
you added my middle daughter to the mix. Truly, and
truly is one of those kids that when she tries it,
(20:31):
she's good at it, Like she's gorgeous just her look,
her personality. Every sport she tries she's good at. She's
an incredible singer, she can dance, she's songwrites. I mean,
it's just the other day we went to like maybe
a month ago, we went to throw frisbees and I
didn't even know she could throw a frisbee, And I'm like,
this is unbelievable. How good you are throwing a frisbee.
(20:52):
This is just truly, And I think if I didn't
have Macy to tether me and anchor me to the
truth of should be only your best self, that I
would be holding truly skill set with pride like this
is something that I did right, or she is an
example of my accomplishment as a parent, and also putting
(21:13):
that pressure on her to be the best at all
of those things, the best, not her best, And instead
I can look at her and say, oh, babe, I
am so proud of who you are, like this is amazing,
And then she can choose the thing that she wants
to do well, and we're going to invest in that.
She'll take lessons and she can practice, and we'll do
all that investment. But at the end of the day,
(21:34):
I can look at her and say, oh, babe, if
you lost your voice today, then you could never sing
another note, and she can know in her heart of
hearts that's not going to change at all, how amazing
you are, how much I love you, why I love you.
So it's really that foundation of an understanding and that
internal work that we get to do as parents. Hope
(21:55):
that's helpful and not annoying or confusing.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Oh, not annoying at all. It's true.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I mean, like a pre recorded script would be awesome,
but I mean that's even more valuable that like teaching
them that their worth is about them trying in them
being their best self that they can be at that
time with what they have at that moment. It's the
most important is you're right, probably is going to prevent
a lot of those cascades from happening in the first place.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We're going to take another quick.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Break and talk a little bit about affirmation and how
to I mean, I guess we kind.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Of talked about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But I want to talk about I like versus I love,
especially because that plays a role in your upcoming book.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So yeah, you will be right back.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
All right, we are back, And in your work you
talk a lot about how do we positively affirm our kids,
But also you talk about using the words I like,
and I think you actually just did it in the
example you just gave, which might even be more powerful,
you say, than the concept of love. So what's the
difference there, and why would you say that?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Yes, so, I don't think there's anything more powerful than love.
I think love is the ultimate of all things we
build are all goodness on. I think when I'm talking
about when I say to say I like you or
I like something about you, it's not that it's more
powerful than love. It's that it hits a little bit
with a little more girth. And if you think about this,
(23:28):
like you hear stories about people who grew up in
a home that maybe wasn't real lovey dovey, and they
would say, I always knew my parents loved me, right
like I always knew my dad loved me. That was
never a question. But when I turned thirty and he
said he was proud of me for this thing, right,
or he said I like you. The weight of that
is so big and important, and as parents and people
(23:52):
are raising kids, it is a given we love our kid,
our kid. I mean, my kids entered my hands through adoption,
but like you birth the child, and just the love
is just exists. It's almost like an unconditional thing. And
I think often we can put conditions on like on
what we like, on what we don't like. And so
for our kids to know that we also like them
(24:14):
and we like them just because of who they are,
that it's not even necessarily a condition on what we
like about them. It's not like I like you when
you do this, only when you do this, like oh, no,
I like being in the same room as you. I
like when you come up and give me a hug.
I like to sit next to you. Hey, I like you.
Did you know that I like you so much? And
when you say those things to our kids, I think
(24:35):
it's a little bit if they're not used to it,
like oh, and it hits harder, it sits weightier in
a way that I think is really affirming for our kids.
I think it's important for our relationship with our kids
or just anybody in our lives too. I think it's
very powerful.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I mean, I haven't heard that before, but as you're
saying it, I feel like, yeah, it is really powerful,
and I'd like to verbalize that stuff worn. I could
think about how even in different contexts, it might be nice,
like I like taking you to soccer games or I
like picking you up and whatever, and oh that's great,
and I think not really as common, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what it is. It's just something
that we don't It's like this opportunity and practice that
we have as parents at our fingertips. That's so easy
to say, but at the end of I think a
lot of people will think, like, wait, when was the
last time I told mek I like them, Like I
like how they show up in the world. I don't
know if I've said that in a long time, or
even ever out loud. They know I love them, but
(25:35):
what can I do today to show them how much
I like them?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Okay, Well, maybe we should have a like of the
week instead of a love of the week. I'm thinking
about that. Hmm, what could I like of the week be?
It might be different than my love of the week.
But yeah, so that is our segment. I give you
a warning, but I'll give you time to think about
yours as I give mine.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
My like of the week is my marine Layer.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well it's a convertible fanny pack, and then it's also
like a small purse, so it can be either and
it's like the perfect size, and it kind of looks
like those little lemon bags that like everyone has, which
I also like those two, but it's just a little
bit different, and it has color blocking and it's really
not very expensive, and I got a lot of compliments
on it when I just took a recent trip using it.
So that is my like of the week. And I'm
this is a non spawn like, this is just I
(26:26):
got it for a Mother's Day gift.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Just enjoy it. So I will share.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
That yours can be deeper than that. That was a
pretty like surface level one. But I do really like
that bag. But what is your love or like of the.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Work this week? A great bag is something to like
and love. I am traveling right now for summer. My
family and I've been to a few different states over
the last couple of weeks, and we were in Savannah Georgia,
and I'm from southern California, and there's all these roadside
stands in that neck of the woods up through like
Charleston and South Carolina and stuff with boiled peanuts. Do
(27:01):
you guys have boiled peanut? Okay, they've got them in Hawaii,
and then they're all on this like eastern coast, like
in the South, and we just there's nowhere you're going
in California and getting a boiled peanut. It's just sort
of thing. I love boiled peanuts. I think they're so delicious,
they're so addictive, so that I bought a big old
bag at a farmer's market and I have been loving
(27:23):
those this week.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I love that I live in Florida, where they do
have boiled peanuts. But I remember going to college and
there's one kid in my dorm from Florida and he
would all he would talk about was like boiled peanuts.
So that's when I first learned about them. So you're right,
it's like only southern.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's like a Southern thing.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
I think it is a Southern thing. Well, you lucky
Southern folks. I'm sure we can make boiled peanuts. I'm
sure the process is not that hard, but it's fine. Yeah,
a roadside stand boiled peanut is a good time.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, I feel like we have only scraped the surface
of your work, which I am super interested to read
more of now myself.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So I'm sure that is.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
True of our listeners, So tell them where they can
find you, as well as your upcoming children's book release,
which I think will bring that vernacular of liking into
the open and kind of be a great starting point.
And I got to look at the book and it's beautiful,
So yeah, tell everybody about you.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, so I'm at Heatheravis dot com and then my
newest children's book. I like you so much, celebrating what
makes you you is wherever books are sold. It's out now.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Heather.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Well that was awesome hearing from Heather about the wonderful
work she is doing as an advocate for people with
various differences. So our question this week was sent into Sarah,
so I will read it and then Sarah can respond.
Listener wants to ask for advice about how you transitioned
your travel planning after having kids, So this listener says
(28:55):
in the before times, so before kids, she and her
husband would take various trips to places like Europe. They
had a long time before their son arrived, as they
were dealing with infertility treatments and things like that. But
the point is that they spent a lot of their
life not worrying about the schedules of small children, flight times,
(29:16):
small hotel rims, things like that. Their son is now
five years old, so they are getting to the point
where travel might be more possible again, and she's been
trying to come up with a travel wish list, but
her husband seems uninspired. She says, I think it's hard
for him to translate what we did as a couple,
with the various museums, historical sites, fancy restaurants, to traveling
(29:39):
with a kid. They did do a trip to Montreal
last year and had a great time, So any suggestions
on how to help him get unstock from how we
used to travel? So, Sarah, what did you think of
this question? I thought maybe there was something else going
on with this than just I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I thought this was so interesting. I mean, is
there like an element of oh, things are different now?
So I don't see the good in any of those differences,
or maybe just a little bit of like if I
can't do it a certain way, I don't want to
do it at all, or some planning challenges which we'll
get into. But I think this needs to be like
(30:15):
a serious conversation. I mean, travel can be such a
highlight of family time, and if you're sort of hitting
a brick wall as you're trying to think through it,
I think this isn't something to just gloss over and
move on.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
This is something to really delve into.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I mean, the question is is it because he sees
himself maybe traveling and not having the childcare that makes
his life feel more doable, because that can be a hesitation,
And if so, would it be easier to think about
vacations where as a first step there is some provided childcare.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I mean, hello, Disney Cruise would be an option.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Or traveling with family like an older cousin that could
do childcare, or even traveling with a nanny. If you
want to go to Europe and you have someone that's
willing to go with you, that could be awesome. You'd
have some support on the road. Or maybe it just
feels really daunting and he can't picture things looking different.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
But maybe you could.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Write out some like pretend my itineraries of some shorter,
more low key trips that would have some of the
elements of the things that he liked before, but would
feel more doable with a kid and the fact that
your child is five, I feel like you're over the
really really tough travel.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Piece already, and there's so many fun things you.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Can do, and Europe particularly, I feel like I just
keep hearing how incredibly kid friendly certain countries are, with
like outdoor play spaces and just amazing natural areas. So yeah,
I think this needs to be like a full on
deep dive in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, maybe maybe. I think there's a couple things going on.
I mean, one, I do like the idea of just
deciding to do some lower key trips over the next year.
So if you've got your travel bucket list, maybe some
of those travel places are a little closer or more
feel more feasible than others, and you might decide to
(32:06):
book those for the next year or so to sort
of help him get his sea legs under him, so
that when you guys are deciding a year from now
to go take that week long trip to Germany, which
by the way, they like kids there. You'll be fine.
It's like it will be good, right, he will all
already have experienced like being on a plane for three
(32:27):
hours with a kid, So now being on a plane
for like seven hours with a kid, it's not a
whole different thing. It's like you've done it. You've experienced
your first flight delay with a kid, like you've gotten
through it. You will be through. But I think it
may also be that he just doesn't want to plan it.
I don't know what you guys had. If he was
(32:49):
the travel planner before and he's just feeling busy and
overwhelmed between work, and then time outside of work is
spent maybe all with your five year old. I don't
really know what the setup is. But he just may
not feel like he has it in him right now
to plan a intense thing. So it's not that he's
I don't want to travel. It says he doesn't want
to plan it. So the pushback you're getting is not
(33:11):
I can't imagine traveling with my five year old. It's like, oh, yeah,
we'll think about that later. Yeah, Oh, I can't really
talk about this right now. I have to go do
something else. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, Well, why don't
we talk about that in a week or two. It's
like he doesn't want to plan it. Okay, so that
means you do, like you just take this on and
that may or may not be fair, but I mean
I'm for now. If this is what you want to do,
I say, look, look, we need to go somewhere for
(33:34):
Christmas next year. We've decided that we would like to
I'd like to try traveling. I want to go to X.
Do you have any specific objections to going to X.
He's like, well, I don't know if we should make
a DISCISIONI I want to make a decision in the
next week. If you have not decided and told me
a reason no, in the next week, I'm going to
book it, right and I think you will. Maybe that
(33:59):
may sound a little but harsh, but he can give
you a good reason in the next week of why,
you know, like, oh, we don't have the money right now, Okay,
that would be a reason. All right.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
We my mom really jet lag.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, my mom is really sick and we need to
make sure we're around to see her. If that's the case,
he could come up with a good reason.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
But if he.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Doesn't, then it's just the resistance to like planning it.
And I think if you then plan it, he will
probably find it okay. And then once the first big
trip is done, I think you'll have the experience.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Of enjoying it. No, it makes sense like that there
might be a lot more inertia than there was before
when you guys were in a groove and it didn't
even feel that daunting to put together a trip, and
now it's like, I don't even know how to deal
with that. So it might be easier just to keep
pushing it back.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, but you don't have to. You can make it happen.
You can make it happen. All right. Well, this has
been best of Both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Heather Avis.
We will be back next week on more with more
on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome to best of both worlds.
Speaker 4 (00:42):
This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in late July of twenty twenty five.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Heather Avis, who is
a New York Times bestselling author, public speaker, podcaster, and
down syndrome advocates. So we're going to talk about her
really important work that she is doing. So, Sarah, do
you remember, I mean this whole thing of disability advocacy
(01:06):
and things like that. I mean, when you were growing up,
do you remember being around a lot of children who
had differences.
Speaker 3 (01:12):
I don't remember a lot of it, but the people
that I were around definitely made big impressions on me.
And I'm super excited for this work that Heather is doing,
because I think the more visibility and the more people
are talking about this stuff, the better. My memories are
very specific. We had one of my fellow campers when
I was in day camp was born with one arm,
(01:32):
and I just like, remember I was little, and the
first time I saw her, I was like, well, that's different.
And then we just got completely used to it. I mean,
I'd see her year after year, and like I'd notice
how other people noticed it, and I'm like, oh, right,
that's different.
Speaker 1 (01:44):
But for me, it was just so normal at that point.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So and you said she was a swimmer, That's what
I love.
Speaker 4 (01:49):
Like she.
Speaker 3 (01:52):
I remembered her being a very fast swimmer, So yeah,
she she had no problem.
Speaker 2 (01:56):
She managed to figure that out. I love it.
Speaker 1 (01:58):
I love it hundred percent.
Speaker 3 (02:00):
And there was also a little girl when I was
a counselor at the same camp that had cystic fibrosis,
and I didn't know what the condition was, but we
had to give her her enzymes at meals and I
just remember thinking, oh, she seems completely fine, and they say,
this is like a whole thing. And then of course
I learned later as a pediatric resident that it can
be so incredibly serious, especially back then. Now there are
(02:23):
more treatments for many of these things. But yeah, I
just this work that Heather is doing. I'm just so
happy because I just think the more people talk about it,
the more people see others in society with different needs,
and the more that she can change perspectives on it
what might mean to have a difference the better.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
Yeah. Absolutely, Well, I'm very excited to hear what she
has to say, so please enjoy this interview where Sarah's
talking with Heather Avis.
Speaker 3 (02:46):
Well, I am so excited to welcome Heather Avis to
the show. She is a New York Times bestselling author,
public speaker, podcaster, and down syndrome advocate, and she has
an interesting story as well as she has really built
a beautiful platform around changing certain narratives that I believe
has benefited so many people. We've had requests for topics
(03:09):
like this, So welcome Heather. I'm so excited to have you.
Speaker 1 (03:11):
On the show.
Speaker 4 (03:12):
Thank you so much. It's a thrill to be with
you today.
Speaker 3 (03:16):
Well, I think I've read a little bit about your
kind of origin story and how your passion grew from
some life experiences, but our listeners might not be as familiar.
So why don't you go ahead and give us your background,
Like what got everything started?
Speaker 4 (03:30):
Sure? So I am from southern California and I lived
there with my husband and three kids. And my husband
and I got married many years ago. I was twenty
years old. Think we're about to sea our twenty third anniversary.
And I had one thing I wanted in life, and
that was to be a mom. I wanted that more
(03:51):
desperately than anything else. And early on into our marriage,
when we started to try to have kids, we couldn't
have kids naturally, and we ended up towards walking towards
the path of adoption. It's a very long story of
infertility and getting to that point, but that was where
we felt led, is to walk down the path towards adoption.
And when we were pursuing an adoption plan, when you
(04:14):
pursue adoption plan, you get to check off what you
are open to and not in a potential future child.
It's like a very wild, surreal checklist. And so we
had said no to any major health issues. Ultimately, we
wanted a healthy infant. Well fast forward, we've been a
waiting family for over a year, and we learned about
(04:35):
a little baby with Down syndrome who'd been placed with
our agency. And when I learned about her, it wasn't
like are you interested? It was more of an update
of what's happening. Because we had said no to Down syndrome.
We had said no, she had a congenital heart defect,
she had a slew of medical issues. We said no
to all of those things on paper. But when I
learned about her, it was one of those moments like
(04:56):
I wish I had never heard it because I couldn't
unkno it and the knowing of it changed something in me.
And I call like the spark in my heart. And
so again, fast forward, so many details, but we ended
up saying yes to our daughter. Macy named her Mason
a caller Macy. And she came home at three months old,
(05:17):
like I said, with a big old hole in her heart.
She had opened her surgery a month later, she was
on oxygen medication. All kinds of health issues are medically
fragile baby, and she had Down syndrome. And I call
her my scariest and best Yes, I was so terrified
of everything she was on paper. And then she came
home and wrecked me and changed me forever and for
(05:38):
the better, and then that we pursued two more adoption
plans after she came home. We are our middle daughter, Truly,
so Macy is now seventeen. We have our middle daughter, Truly,
who's fourteen and she doesn't have any disabilities. And then
our youngest son, August is eleven and he also has
Down syndrome, and that's an.
Speaker 1 (05:57):
I see him in the background, yeah.
Speaker 4 (06:00):
Blogging about it, and that turned into a book deal,
and then Instagram came around and I started sharing what
I call shifting narratives and shouting worth and I've had
the opportunity to make my life's vision and a career
out of showing the world how incredible people's disabilities are.
Speaker 1 (06:17):
I am so curious.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
I'm actually a pediatric endochronologist, so I do care for
a good chunk of kids with Down syndrome, and I
am so interested to hear about the narrative shifting. I mean, like,
the only thing I can come up with, specifically is
that they're so different, like there's not one prototype, Like
kids have different challenges and different medical issues that come
(06:40):
with it.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
But I want to hear.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
From you, who obviously is much more of an expert
than me. What are the narratives that you feel like
have needed shifting and what does that mean to you.
Speaker 4 (06:49):
Yes, my kids have lots of specialty doctors, but we
don't see in dem so that's when we don't see.
But when I learned about our daughter Macy, like I
was sharing, I call her my scariest and best. Yes,
the scary part was and why we said no to
her on paper, no to a child like her, was
because the narrative around Down syndrome is so negative. You
(07:12):
hear a lot of parents get in utero or at
birth diagnosis and the feeling that they feel you almost always,
not one hundred percent of the time, but most of
the time is one of sadness and grief and dread
and despair and all of these negative feelings that are
connected to this diagnosis. Most of those people, the majority,
have never experienced a person with Down syndrome. So it's
(07:33):
a narrative that society has been creating and feeding us
saying Down syndrome equals bad, not that blatantly sometimes, but
it's just our perspective in the stories and what we
know or don't know about Down syndrome. And I would say,
disability at large, our society has decided disability equals bad,
and so if it's bad, then it's we want to
(07:55):
avoid it. And then I bring this baby girl home,
and I remember that very first night, right out. We
picked her up from the agency, like from the office,
and we met the foster family there. She wasn't living
at the agency, and we bring her home and I
walk her upstairs and she's already fallen asleep on my
shoulder and I sat in the corner with this baby.
(08:17):
She was so little, she was less than ten pounds
at three months old. And I'm looking at her face
and I'm in love, right, And two weeks prior, I
was terrified and I'm thinking, I look at her and
I said out loud, I can't remember what I was
so afraid of, like, look at this baby. And then
that started to create a new story, a new narrative
in my own life. And as she started to get
(08:39):
a little bit older, within the first couple of years
of her life, I'd find myself doing life, going to
the grocery store or the park, lots of doctor's appointments
just in our community, and most of the time she
was the only person with down syndrome in a space
almost always. And I remember being at the park one
day and watching her pole to stand on a piece
of ground equipment, and she was probably two, like most
(09:03):
kids are walking and just being elated and looking around
at the other people like do you see thinking like
do you see what's happening? And it's in their minds
like no big deal, right, A two year old's pulling
themselves this stand. And the feeling that overcame me was
how lucky I was that she was mine and how
afraid I was of her, like remembering that narrative, and
(09:23):
so it really started me on this mission to tell
the bigger, truer story of down syndrome. And it's not
one of rainbows and unicorns, Like it's hard. There's a
lot of things that are hard. But life is hard,
and parenting is hard, and raising a child is really
really hard, and being a human can be really really hard.
But heart isn't bad. Heart is just hard. And so
(09:45):
I wanted to tell this bigger story and I did
that initially by sharing just our experience, like a day
in the life. I did that with things like Instagram,
and then I've had the opportunity to meet hundreds and
hundreds of families in the Down syndrome community, and oftentimes
they felt it was a very similar narrative and like
we were here, which was terrified, and we came here,
(10:08):
which feels lucky. And I started using this phrase the
lucky few, feeling like few of us love someone with
Down syndrome, and those of us who do are so lucky.
And as I threw that into the world through my language,
through my writing, through a hashtag, the downs in your
community just grabbed a hold of it with both fists, like, yes,
this is it, this is it, this is it again.
(10:29):
Not one hundred percent of us, and that's fine. We
all have our own unique lived experiences. But for the
most part, that idea of feeling so unbelievably lucky to
love a person with Down syndrome has been the biggest
narrative shift for me.
Speaker 3 (10:44):
Oh my gosh, I think you this is a record
for the most chills I've gotten the intro of a
guest that we've ever had, because that was just like,
so beautiful and so true. And I think a lot
of it is about like expectations versus reality, and the
fact that you've been able to share your reality and
how beautiful it's been, and all the different realities that
look different ways out there, but still that it doesn't
(11:06):
make them different, doesn't mean less than it's just like different.
I can see how much value that must be adding
to the whole community.
Speaker 4 (11:15):
Yeah, I mean my life is so deeply enriched by
loving a person with a disability, like coming alongside in
mutuality with my friends who have disability, being my kids parents,
in honoring who they are with disability. It's completely changed
how I am as a person for better, always for better.
Speaker 1 (11:37):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (11:38):
Well, we're going to take a quick break and when
we get back, we're going to talk a little bit
about differences, since I think naturally when you have somebody
that might have some outward physical differences or maybe they're
invisible differences, that invites questioning from the world, and you
are a great person to answer questions the rest of
us as to how to best handle that.
Speaker 1 (11:57):
So we will be right back.
Speaker 3 (12:11):
All right, we are back, and I think we'll have
to go back to the stuff you were just talking
about because it was so powerful. But I also want
to talk about comparison, because I think you have a
lot to say in this realm, and a lot of
it does relate to children that have various.
Speaker 1 (12:27):
Types of differences.
Speaker 3 (12:29):
So kids are going to compare themselves to their classmates,
to a kid that might look different than them or
achieves them milestone at a different age, et cetera. I can't
imagine that you can stop the comparison, or at least
it's hard, because I think.
Speaker 1 (12:42):
It's partly human nature.
Speaker 3 (12:43):
But how along with the comparison, can you help there
be like a celebration of uniquenesses instead of just anxiety
or negative feelings about the differences. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think it was Roosevelt who said comparison is the
thief of all joy, and not the first time I
heard that. I'm like, yeah, that is so true. How
much joy comparison has stolen from me? And like you mentioned,
I think it's just a natural thing to do. I
don't think we need to feel shame about it. I
think with how how we let it affect the rest
(13:15):
of who we are and how we live life, I
think is where the rubber hits the road. But to
feel that like jolt of huh, like I noticed this
is different from this, I noticed this person can this
person can't like that's just being observant. You're going to
be comparing. There's places where comparison offers incredible growth for
so many different people and different experiences, But I do
(13:38):
think the majority, especially in parenting, I'm I'm sure you
can relate to this. Like, man, the amount of times
that as parents and caregivers we look at what this
kid to our right and left is doing, and then
we think, if only we change their diet, get more sleep,
watch this show, Like we can list the things that
were like, if we do these things, then maybe my
kid can be more fill in the blank, right, So
(14:01):
that's all happening for me with my experience. I can
tell a quick story with my daughter Macy. I remember
initially comparing her to her non disabled peers and knowing
that she was going to be delayed from the very beginning,
like almost every milestone was going to take her a lot,
a lot longer. So there was like a gentleness in
(14:21):
that comparison. And then we got into the down syndrome
world more and comparing her to her peers with down syndrome,
and that just created shame and disappointment and took all
my joy awake because it's like, wait, this kid also
has Down syndrome and they're walking, and Mason hasn't taken
her first step. What's wrong with my daughter? That's right
(14:45):
with this person. Okay, So then fast forward a little bit.
I remember Macy was five and we were at a
learning program for families with Down syndrome specifically, and she
was working with her peers and professionals. And then I
was in a group of parents and we were talking
about telling time, like helping our kids with math and
time telling or something like that, and the woman in
(15:05):
charge said something along the lines of, isn't that why
we do all of this meaning, like these learning programs
and the therapies and all of this learning so that
our kids can be more like the typical peers. And
it stopped me in my tracks and really changed the
trajectory for me of how I parented and how I
viewed my children, and I viewed myself in that I thought, wait, no,
(15:27):
my goal for my daughter with Down syndrome is for
her to be her best self. But I had never
stopped to think through that. I had never stopped to
realize that until that moment when it stopped me and
I thought, wait, she has Down syndrome. It's a beautiful
part of her. I don't want her to not have
down syndrome, And what an exhausting thing for her to
(15:49):
have to spend her entire life doing to be more
like someone else. No, I want Macy to be Macy.
And that right there became, like I said, this defining moment,
and as I moved forward in all my parenting, and
still today, it's almost like this tether that I go
back to because the comparison will pull me right and
pull me left. But this remembrance of we're going to
(16:09):
pursue any kind of activity or special way of eating
or therapy with this goal in mind, that my children
are their best selves, not someone else's best self. And
that little like nugget, as simple as it sounds, has
been so freeing in how I parent, and freeing for
(16:32):
me too, write like if I'm doing my best, that
has to be enough, because if it's not, we're just
going to fail, fail, fail fail. Like all we can
all be is our best, and our best is uniquely ours.
So I find so much freedom and just like exhale
in that truth.
Speaker 3 (16:52):
And everything that you said to me would apply also
to other differences learning differences, physical differences, even just different
relative strengths that your various kids might have or that
your kids might have in comparison to their peers.
Speaker 4 (17:07):
Yeah, I have to.
Speaker 3 (17:09):
Also ask how within the family, now you have kids
that have more typical pace of development and kids that
have Down syndrome, do you have best practices for families
navigating this because I feel like that in itself can
be tricky. It's the kid against their peers. But I mean,
I don't want to use the word against. Obviously that's
(17:29):
what we're trying to avoid here. But as thoughts come
up in either kid in the Down syndrome child or
the typical child, and they wonder about these things, what
are some great ways to talk about it or address it?
Speaker 4 (17:41):
Such a good question, And sometimes there's questions when we
talk about like howe the how to's, how can we
that have nice steps for us? Or like these laid
out tools I have found and I can give some
little pointers, but that when it comes to something like comparison,
what we're talking about, it's such a posture of the heart.
(18:02):
I think it starts with an internal investigation of what
is it that I want for my child? Like simply
starting they're like, what is it that I want for
my child? And hopefully we get to the point where
we say I want them to be their best self,
because anything outside of that is unachievable. Anything outside of
(18:22):
that is going to strip them and ourselves as their parents,
of our humanity, of our dignity, because we're trying to
be something that is that is impossible, and we're putting
our value and worth on the things we can or
cannot do, which can be stripped from us in any
second of our lives. And that not to be like
an alarmist or whatever the word would be, but that's
(18:44):
the reality that at any moment in our lives, everything
that we're capable of can be stripped from us. And
so then where does our value and worth lie? And
that has been the gift of the journey of being
my kid's parents, and starting with being oldest may see
is that she brought me to that place where I
asked myself, what is it that makes her have value
(19:05):
and worth? What do I want for her? And then
the second part of that question is what gives a
human value in life or value and worth? What is
it that we decide make somebody worthy of living a
honorable life with community and belonging in love. And for me,
it came down. I had to strip it down very
(19:25):
very like to the breath, tas of it's the heart
beating your chest, the breath and your lungs and can
you love and be loved? And if those three things
are true of a life, then that life has meaning
and value. That there's not a thing that we need
to do or not do that's going to take away
or add to that meaning and value. It's just inherent.
It just exists because you exist. And I believe that
(19:50):
with my whole heart for my kids. And with comparison,
it's interesting because Macie as my oldest with Down syndrome,
My son August, who's eleven, is six years younger, and
there's skill sets he also has Down syndrome are so different.
And August has surpassed his sister who's six years older
than him in many ways as a person with Down syndrome,
(20:11):
in a lot of his skill set that he has
a lot of his abilities. But it's not something that
rattles me or upsets me at this point because of
that foundation that I had the opportunity to lay all
those years ago, when Macey was so young, and then
you added my middle daughter to the mix. Truly, and
truly is one of those kids that when she tries it,
(20:31):
she's good at it, Like she's gorgeous just her look,
her personality. Every sport she tries she's good at. She's
an incredible singer, she can dance, she's songwrites. I mean,
it's just the other day we went to like maybe
a month ago, we went to throw frisbees and I
didn't even know she could throw a frisbee, And I'm like,
this is unbelievable. How good you are throwing a frisbee.
(20:52):
This is just truly, And I think if I didn't
have Macy to tether me and anchor me to the
truth of should be only your best self, that I
would be holding truly skill set with pride like this
is something that I did right, or she is an
example of my accomplishment as a parent, and also putting
(21:13):
that pressure on her to be the best at all
of those things, the best, not her best, And instead
I can look at her and say, oh, babe, I
am so proud of who you are, like this is amazing,
And then she can choose the thing that she wants
to do well, and we're going to invest in that.
She'll take lessons and she can practice, and we'll do
all that investment. But at the end of the day,
(21:34):
I can look at her and say, oh, babe, if
you lost your voice today, then you could never sing
another note, and she can know in her heart of
hearts that's not going to change at all, how amazing
you are, how much I love you, why I love you.
So it's really that foundation of an understanding and that
internal work that we get to do as parents. Hope
(21:55):
that's helpful and not annoying or confusing.
Speaker 1 (21:58):
Oh, not annoying at all. It's true.
Speaker 3 (22:00):
I mean, like a pre recorded script would be awesome,
but I mean that's even more valuable that like teaching
them that their worth is about them trying in them
being their best self that they can be at that
time with what they have at that moment. It's the
most important is you're right, probably is going to prevent
a lot of those cascades from happening in the first place.
Speaker 1 (22:20):
We're going to take another quick.
Speaker 3 (22:22):
Break and talk a little bit about affirmation and how
to I mean, I guess we kind.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
Of talked about that a little bit.
Speaker 3 (22:28):
But I want to talk about I like versus I love,
especially because that plays a role in your upcoming book.
Speaker 1 (22:33):
So yeah, you will be right back.
Speaker 3 (22:47):
All right, we are back, And in your work you
talk a lot about how do we positively affirm our kids,
But also you talk about using the words I like,
and I think you actually just did it in the
example you just gave, which might even be more powerful,
you say, than the concept of love. So what's the
difference there, and why would you say that?
Speaker 4 (23:07):
Yes, so, I don't think there's anything more powerful than love.
I think love is the ultimate of all things we
build are all goodness on. I think when I'm talking
about when I say to say I like you or
I like something about you, it's not that it's more
powerful than love. It's that it hits a little bit
with a little more girth. And if you think about this,
(23:28):
like you hear stories about people who grew up in
a home that maybe wasn't real lovey dovey, and they
would say, I always knew my parents loved me, right
like I always knew my dad loved me. That was
never a question. But when I turned thirty and he
said he was proud of me for this thing, right,
or he said I like you. The weight of that
is so big and important, and as parents and people
(23:52):
are raising kids, it is a given we love our kid,
our kid. I mean, my kids entered my hands through adoption,
but like you birth the child, and just the love
is just exists. It's almost like an unconditional thing. And
I think often we can put conditions on like on
what we like, on what we don't like. And so
for our kids to know that we also like them
(24:14):
and we like them just because of who they are,
that it's not even necessarily a condition on what we
like about them. It's not like I like you when
you do this, only when you do this, like oh, no,
I like being in the same room as you. I
like when you come up and give me a hug.
I like to sit next to you. Hey, I like you.
Did you know that I like you so much? And
when you say those things to our kids, I think
(24:35):
it's a little bit if they're not used to it,
like oh, and it hits harder, it sits weightier in
a way that I think is really affirming for our kids.
I think it's important for our relationship with our kids
or just anybody in our lives too. I think it's
very powerful.
Speaker 3 (24:52):
I mean, I haven't heard that before, but as you're
saying it, I feel like, yeah, it is really powerful,
and I'd like to verbalize that stuff worn. I could
think about how even in different contexts, it might be nice,
like I like taking you to soccer games or I
like picking you up and whatever, and oh that's great,
and I think not really as common, if that makes sense.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
Yeah, yeah, it's exactly what it is. It's just something
that we don't It's like this opportunity and practice that
we have as parents at our fingertips. That's so easy
to say, but at the end of I think a
lot of people will think, like, wait, when was the
last time I told mek I like them, Like I
like how they show up in the world. I don't
know if I've said that in a long time, or
even ever out loud. They know I love them, but
(25:35):
what can I do today to show them how much
I like them?
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah that's beautiful.
Speaker 3 (25:40):
Okay, Well, maybe we should have a like of the
week instead of a love of the week. I'm thinking
about that. Hmm, what could I like of the week be?
It might be different than my love of the week.
But yeah, so that is our segment. I give you
a warning, but I'll give you time to think about
yours as I give mine.
Speaker 1 (26:00):
My like of the week is my marine Layer.
Speaker 3 (26:04):
Well it's a convertible fanny pack, and then it's also
like a small purse, so it can be either and
it's like the perfect size, and it kind of looks
like those little lemon bags that like everyone has, which
I also like those two, but it's just a little
bit different, and it has color blocking and it's really
not very expensive, and I got a lot of compliments
on it when I just took a recent trip using it.
So that is my like of the week. And I'm
this is a non spawn like, this is just I
(26:26):
got it for a Mother's Day gift.
Speaker 1 (26:27):
Just enjoy it. So I will share.
Speaker 3 (26:29):
That yours can be deeper than that. That was a
pretty like surface level one. But I do really like
that bag. But what is your love or like of the.
Speaker 4 (26:37):
Work this week? A great bag is something to like
and love. I am traveling right now for summer. My
family and I've been to a few different states over
the last couple of weeks, and we were in Savannah Georgia,
and I'm from southern California, and there's all these roadside
stands in that neck of the woods up through like
Charleston and South Carolina and stuff with boiled peanuts. Do
(27:01):
you guys have boiled peanut? Okay, they've got them in Hawaii,
and then they're all on this like eastern coast, like
in the South, and we just there's nowhere you're going
in California and getting a boiled peanut. It's just sort
of thing. I love boiled peanuts. I think they're so delicious,
they're so addictive, so that I bought a big old
bag at a farmer's market and I have been loving
(27:23):
those this week.
Speaker 3 (27:25):
I love that I live in Florida, where they do
have boiled peanuts. But I remember going to college and
there's one kid in my dorm from Florida and he
would all he would talk about was like boiled peanuts.
So that's when I first learned about them. So you're right,
it's like only southern.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
It's like a Southern thing.
Speaker 4 (27:38):
I think it is a Southern thing. Well, you lucky
Southern folks. I'm sure we can make boiled peanuts. I'm
sure the process is not that hard, but it's fine. Yeah,
a roadside stand boiled peanut is a good time.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 3 (27:50):
Well, I feel like we have only scraped the surface
of your work, which I am super interested to read
more of now myself.
Speaker 1 (27:58):
So I'm sure that is.
Speaker 3 (27:59):
True of our listeners, So tell them where they can
find you, as well as your upcoming children's book release,
which I think will bring that vernacular of liking into
the open and kind of be a great starting point.
And I got to look at the book and it's beautiful,
So yeah, tell everybody about you.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, so I'm at Heatheravis dot com and then my
newest children's book. I like you so much, celebrating what
makes you you is wherever books are sold. It's out now.
Speaker 3 (28:26):
Awesome. Well, thank you so much for coming on, Heather.
Speaker 4 (28:29):
Thank you so much for having me.
Speaker 2 (28:31):
Well that was awesome hearing from Heather about the wonderful
work she is doing as an advocate for people with
various differences. So our question this week was sent into Sarah,
so I will read it and then Sarah can respond.
Listener wants to ask for advice about how you transitioned
your travel planning after having kids, So this listener says
(28:55):
in the before times, so before kids, she and her
husband would take various trips to places like Europe. They
had a long time before their son arrived, as they
were dealing with infertility treatments and things like that. But
the point is that they spent a lot of their
life not worrying about the schedules of small children, flight times,
(29:16):
small hotel rims, things like that. Their son is now
five years old, so they are getting to the point
where travel might be more possible again, and she's been
trying to come up with a travel wish list, but
her husband seems uninspired. She says, I think it's hard
for him to translate what we did as a couple,
with the various museums, historical sites, fancy restaurants, to traveling
(29:39):
with a kid. They did do a trip to Montreal
last year and had a great time, So any suggestions
on how to help him get unstock from how we
used to travel? So, Sarah, what did you think of
this question? I thought maybe there was something else going
on with this than just I don't know.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
Yeah, I thought this was so interesting. I mean, is
there like an element of oh, things are different now?
So I don't see the good in any of those differences,
or maybe just a little bit of like if I
can't do it a certain way, I don't want to
do it at all, or some planning challenges which we'll
get into. But I think this needs to be like
(30:15):
a serious conversation. I mean, travel can be such a
highlight of family time, and if you're sort of hitting
a brick wall as you're trying to think through it,
I think this isn't something to just gloss over and
move on.
Speaker 1 (30:27):
This is something to really delve into.
Speaker 3 (30:29):
I mean, the question is is it because he sees
himself maybe traveling and not having the childcare that makes
his life feel more doable, because that can be a hesitation,
And if so, would it be easier to think about
vacations where as a first step there is some provided childcare.
Speaker 1 (30:45):
I mean, hello, Disney Cruise would be an option.
Speaker 3 (30:49):
Or traveling with family like an older cousin that could
do childcare, or even traveling with a nanny. If you
want to go to Europe and you have someone that's
willing to go with you, that could be awesome. You'd
have some support on the road. Or maybe it just
feels really daunting and he can't picture things looking different.
Speaker 1 (31:07):
But maybe you could.
Speaker 3 (31:08):
Write out some like pretend my itineraries of some shorter,
more low key trips that would have some of the
elements of the things that he liked before, but would
feel more doable with a kid and the fact that
your child is five, I feel like you're over the
really really tough travel.
Speaker 1 (31:24):
Piece already, and there's so many fun things you.
Speaker 3 (31:27):
Can do, and Europe particularly, I feel like I just
keep hearing how incredibly kid friendly certain countries are, with
like outdoor play spaces and just amazing natural areas. So yeah,
I think this needs to be like a full on
deep dive in my opinion.
Speaker 2 (31:44):
Yeah, maybe maybe. I think there's a couple things going on.
I mean, one, I do like the idea of just
deciding to do some lower key trips over the next year.
So if you've got your travel bucket list, maybe some
of those travel places are a little closer or more
feel more feasible than others, and you might decide to
(32:06):
book those for the next year or so to sort
of help him get his sea legs under him, so
that when you guys are deciding a year from now
to go take that week long trip to Germany, which
by the way, they like kids there. You'll be fine.
It's like it will be good, right, he will all
already have experienced like being on a plane for three
(32:27):
hours with a kid, So now being on a plane
for like seven hours with a kid, it's not a
whole different thing. It's like you've done it. You've experienced
your first flight delay with a kid, like you've gotten
through it. You will be through. But I think it
may also be that he just doesn't want to plan it.
I don't know what you guys had. If he was
(32:49):
the travel planner before and he's just feeling busy and
overwhelmed between work, and then time outside of work is
spent maybe all with your five year old. I don't
really know what the setup is. But he just may
not feel like he has it in him right now
to plan a intense thing. So it's not that he's
I don't want to travel. It says he doesn't want
to plan it. So the pushback you're getting is not
(33:11):
I can't imagine traveling with my five year old. It's like, oh, yeah,
we'll think about that later. Yeah, Oh, I can't really
talk about this right now. I have to go do
something else. They're like, oh yeah, yeah, Well, why don't
we talk about that in a week or two. It's
like he doesn't want to plan it. Okay, so that
means you do, like you just take this on and
that may or may not be fair, but I mean
I'm for now. If this is what you want to do,
I say, look, look, we need to go somewhere for
(33:34):
Christmas next year. We've decided that we would like to
I'd like to try traveling. I want to go to X.
Do you have any specific objections to going to X.
He's like, well, I don't know if we should make
a DISCISIONI I want to make a decision in the
next week. If you have not decided and told me
a reason no, in the next week, I'm going to
book it, right and I think you will. Maybe that
(33:59):
may sound a little but harsh, but he can give
you a good reason in the next week of why,
you know, like, oh, we don't have the money right now, Okay,
that would be a reason. All right.
Speaker 1 (34:07):
We my mom really jet lag.
Speaker 2 (34:09):
Yeah, my mom is really sick and we need to
make sure we're around to see her. If that's the case,
he could come up with a good reason.
Speaker 4 (34:15):
But if he.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Doesn't, then it's just the resistance to like planning it.
And I think if you then plan it, he will
probably find it okay. And then once the first big
trip is done, I think you'll have the experience.
Speaker 3 (34:29):
Of enjoying it. No, it makes sense like that there
might be a lot more inertia than there was before
when you guys were in a groove and it didn't
even feel that daunting to put together a trip, and
now it's like, I don't even know how to deal
with that. So it might be easier just to keep
pushing it back.
Speaker 4 (34:44):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (34:44):
Yeah, but you don't have to. You can make it happen.
You can make it happen. All right. Well, this has
been best of Both worlds. Sarah has been interviewing Heather Avis.
We will be back next week on more with more
on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 1 (34:58):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you.
Speaker 2 (35:06):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of Both Worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
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