November 11, 2025 • 36 mins
In today's episode, Sarah and Laura discuss ways to rekindle the flame . . . with your job! While hot fiery passion may not actually be feasible (or even the goal!), there are some ways that might help you enjoy your hours spent at work more. Lots of ideas are discussed in this episode, from increased engagement to professional development and PTO use strategies and more.
In the Q&A, a listener asks about how to figure out whether "FIRE" is for her (vs work a few more years to benefit her family).
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in sort of early mid November
of twenty twenty five. We are going to be talking
about rekindling the work flame, so long time listeners may
recall it. A few months ago we had an episode
called keep It Hot, which was about long term romantic
partnerships and how one could keep the flame live there.
(01:05):
And it turns out that there are some parallels with
work as well. If you've been in your job for
a great many years, sometimes things can start to feel
a little bit stale, less exciting than you might hope.
But there are things that you can do to make
your work life more exciting and interesting for you as well, now,
obviously there are some key differences between your marriage and
(01:29):
your job. One is that you should definitely change jobs
if you get a much better offer of something you
would rather do where there are a few more repercussions
doing that. With your marriage, you probably really want to
think about that with all the trauma that what we cause.
But you know, the grass is not always greener, and
so sometimes when people think we need a different job,
you know, all jobs have their issues. I've definitely seen
(01:52):
people in yours report to me that they're like, Oh,
this job is so stressful and terrible. My coworkers are
awful and you can't trust them. And then you're like,
I'm gonna get a different job. It's like great, great,
go do that. And then within the first year at
that job, they're like, oh, it's so awful and stressful
and I'm working all the time and my coworkers are
tarable and I can't trust them. It's like, hmm, there's
a similarity, one thing in common for sure, between these
(02:12):
two jobs. So we need to sometimes look at ourselves
as well. But anyway, Sarah, you've been in your job
for a great many years. Sarah, maybe you can talk
about how you've come to think about this.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sure, Yeah, I have been in my clinical job for
twelve years now, very exciting, really kind of getting up there.
I feel like once maybe in the upper teams, I'll
really feel like, Okay, I am old guard.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I feel like I'm mid guard right now.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So, but recently I was just having some nothing specific,
just like minor job angst. I think everyone knows. Healthcare,
you know, has a lot of stuff going on right now,
especially like insurance types of issues and things like that.
And I just found myself wondering, like, are there things
I can do to feel more engaged at work and
to maybe embrace the positive things about it, and like
(02:58):
see if I can enjoy my day to day a
little little bit more. And I thought of it as
kind of an experiment, because really, if I was continuing
to feel down about certain things, then maybe it would
have been time to think about different situations. And I
actually did find that some of the things I tried
ended up helping me, Like, I feel more content than
I did even a couple of months ago, with no
real change in the other the things that were bothering me.
(03:21):
I guess, so I guess this kind of inspired some
of these tips, and this episode as well as of
course are keep it hot episode because everyone should go
back and listen to that if they.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Haven't, absolutely, so, yes, we're going to keep it hot
at work.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So one of the.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Things you can do, I mean, obviously in many situations
that feeling a bit stale is you can reflect on
what you actually like about it, right, So, I mean,
there are the things you.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Truly love about your clinical job.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, you should sit there with a pen and paper,
and even if you are in one of those moments
when you're thinking about fire or you're thinking about some
dressed career pivot, think about what you would lose if
you were to do a change. And that is going
to basically be a list of the things that you
do like about your current situation. Because we can tend
(04:07):
to be biased towards you know, what's wrong, what's the
thing we want to fix, you know, what's that nagging
situation or something like that, But maybe there's also some
great things about going to work every day, whether it
is seeing colleagues that you like. Maybe your work hours
are actually pretty darn reasonable. When you do your time
tracking and you look at it and you're like huh,
my hourly pay, my work hours are manageable. I don't
(04:28):
feel stressed outside of work.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I mean, maybe those things don't apply to you, but
I think it is important. And it can be tangible
stuff too, like again, your compensation or your paid time off,
or even things like opportunity to learn or opportunity to
feel like you have meeting at certain points during your job.
Might not be every minute, but maybe there's like a
moment per week where you feel really good. You should
reflect on those things, and I highly recommend like literally
(04:51):
writing them down.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, what do I love about my job? What would
I miss if I weren't doing this? And even if
you do wind up finding something else, having a list
of what you really like will be helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
As you go into the search.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
You're like, actually, it really is important to me that
I have some flexibility over my hours. And then you know,
when you're negotiating your next position, you're like, look, I
need this, see this list. These things have to happen
here for me to leave. What is a reasonable situation
to go do something else? So, yeah, you definitely want
that list. You also might want to consider trying a
few things. One is engaging more with your colleagues, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, I feel like if you are in a down moment,
your instinct might actually be to pull back. I don't
feel like responding to that group chat, I don't want
to go to that party.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
What meetings can I get out of?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And sometimes I think that can really really backfire because like,
the less engaged you are, the less engaged you will be.
So perhaps forcing yourself to like put your opinion in there,
if you have experience and you know you have something
to add or make sure to attend that gathering, that
can actually paradoxically help. Now, of course, if you're just
(05:58):
burned out and you're dispending way too much time at work,
I'm not like advocating to add a bunch of extras,
but look to see if there are things or like
little ways in which you can maybe participate, because you
actually might find that igniting rather than adding to the
burden side of work.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, you also want to notice little good moments, right,
like a work love of the week as it were.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, if you have a day where something
went really well, like write that down somewhere or like
actually think about it or reflect on it and if
you can't find any Like if a week goes by
and you're like, I cannot think of a single positive
thing that I did relate it to my work, that
actually probably is something that needs to be thought about.
(06:41):
Either are there ways to maybe alter your situation to
add in more of those small winds, or maybe you
do need to make some kind of change, because I
think we're going to talk about how, yes, your job
is not all of your waking hours, but it's a
sizeable enough chunk of your waking hours and energy that
if there is literally nothing you can pull out that
(07:01):
brings you a little bit of satisfaction or joy, I
do think that's.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Kind of problematic. Yeah, I don't know, Like, can we
think of some examples for me?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I had a call week recently and it was a
totally stressful call week because I have never seen a
list this long. But I ended up having a case
where I kind of figured something out in a very
rare type of a condition and I felt so good
about that, and I could tell the parent felt really
relieve that we figured something out, and she felt like
I was very much trying hard to figure it out.
(07:31):
And then I like ended up seeing her the week
after and like, I'm following this patient really closely, and
I'm like, yeah, wow, this is what I did this for,
not focusing on maybe how some other patient was very
upset at us because their insurance didn't cover a certain med.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So what about you, Like, are there good.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Moments that you reflect on sometimes maybe at the end
of a week, like a great interview or I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, I mean it's a little different.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Just because you know, you run your own business over
long years, you tend to least I do, orient it
toward things that I actually want to do. So I
have a very low tolerance for things that I don't
want to do, and that means that there's a lot
of love of the weeks. Right I'm enjoying recording this
(08:17):
right now. I'm you know, like writing things. I'm always
excited when I get nice feedback from people on something
that they've read of mine and it was impactful in
their life in some way.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So there's a lot it.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Must have been fun to get those images. I don't
know if you can share a lot about that. But
the actual physical way that your book is going to
look is starting to take shape, and that's exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, well there's obviously things that like there's annoyances
in every job, right, Like I'm going through the copy
edits of my book and something was changed that now
all needs to be changed back, which is just extra time.
But we're making the best possible book, so it's good
to ask these things. And you know, again I also
remind myself like if we're arguing over very very tiny details,
(09:08):
like that's a good place to be in, Like there's
not big stuff that's being changed with anything. But yeah,
I got to see covers, which is was just really exciting,
Like when you have a cover you're excited about and
you can actually picture a version of this in bookstores
that you're like, that's what the book is going to
look like. That's this idea that I had years ago
is now going to be this physical thing. I mean,
(09:29):
it's just a very exciting. I'm using that word way
too much, but you know, I do like it. And
when there's things I really don't like that I do
my best to get rid of them, which we'll get
to in a moment.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yes, And I just want to add to as we
were talking about engagement, I had a special note to
just bring up like participating in the social extras, because
most jobs do have things that are entirely optional. And again,
if you're in that like burnt out mode, you're going
to skip the baby shower or not organize the lunch.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
But sometimes those are like some of the most rewarding.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Parts, depending on where you are in your career and
what you're doing and how hard the rest of it is.
So I very much encourage people to say yes to
those little.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Extras yeah, or come up with them your own if
you are working by yourself, which over the past few years,
I've definitely been more proactive about building work relationships and
sort of recurring things that you see people that you
work with. You don't really work with them, you both
are doing similar work, but they become sort of like
colleagues because you see them and talk with them frequently
(10:36):
and they know what's going on in your working life,
and you can create those and that can definitely make
work feel more exciting for sure. Now, obviously, if there
are people who are toxic, we want to get away
from that, right Sarah.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I mean, that is something that can make I've talked
to multiple people who it sometimes can just come down
to one person, and maybe even an interurn move where
you're almost doing the same job, which but just with
a different supervisor or different coworker.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Might make all the difference.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I do feel if you can pinpoint a ton
of your angs to one person, sometimes that is a
situation that it's like, no, I would focus on changing that.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You don't have to change jobs per se, But I
don't know the one thing. You know, if you can
get rid of the one pain point, that would be
really helpful. We're going to take a quick ad break
and then we would be back with more on rekindling
the flame at work.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Well, we are back.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Talking about how we can rekindle the flame at work.
You know, it's the keep it hot version for not
a marriage, but a job that you have been in
for many years, if not a decade or more so.
One thing you can do is we talked about making
a list of what you enjoy at your job, the
things that you like. Are there ways you could craft
(12:02):
your job to spend more time on the things you like,
And again, it doesn't have to be much. We don't
have to say, well, I was spending two hours a
week on this and now I'm gonna be spending twenty
five on it, And if you're gonna pull that off,
great more power to you. But if you are spending
two hours a week on it, could you spend three
or four? Right? Is that something that you could get
to Would you be able to trim other things, maybe
(12:24):
be a little bit less responsive on the email in
order to carve out some time for this, or delegate
a meeting to somebody else to spend a little bit
more time on your favorite work. That can be the
equivalent of putting in a date night into your long
term partnership. That makes it feel a little bit more
like this is something you are excited about totally.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And I feel like I've engaged in that sort of
career crafting on both sides of what I do, whether
it's emphasizing certain types of specialty clinics or on the
creative side, like, oh, I really like talking about planning
and teaching about planning, you know what, I'll go hard
in that direction because it's so much fun for me.
I mean that no one was like, hey, I think
(13:05):
that is what you should do, but like I really
enjoyed it, and so that both ended up resonating and
ended up being like a really satisfying part of my job.
Sometimes efforts of this fail. Fun fact, my Giant Health
System at one point was like, we're starting a podcast,
and I'm like, I should host the podcast. You guys,
I didn't even get a call back, which is hilarious,
Like what insulted?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I mean, why why? Why didn't they?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's okay, I actually don't even know if they move
forward with the project. To be honest, this is like
a few years ago, and it might have just been like,
never mind, we're not really doing this. But I look
to see, like, oh, has this podcast like hit the charts,
like who's doing it? And I couldn't find it, So okay,
it might have just been that they moved on.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Maybe maybe it never happened, but yeah, yeah, no, that
was the hot thing for a while, Like every organization
has to have their own podcast, but you don't.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I don't know how hard this is. Okay, they don't,
they don't. In fact, you appreciate your own podcast. You
should think long and hard about that.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
But with trying to add more time of the things
that you want to do, there's also the case to
be made for spending less time on the things that
you do not want to do now done right, Delegating
and outsourcing is not so much just about getting rid
of things you don't want to do. It is about
recognizing what is the highest value of your time, and
(14:20):
even if you can do something really well, sometimes that
is not the best way for you to be spending
your time. So Sarah can give an excellent checkout for
her her patient visits, but as you might imagine, it
would be best for her to move on to the
next patient and start seeing the next patient to write Sarah.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Correct or things like you know, I'll get a message
in my inbox. It's like, can you print these lab
orders that you've already ordered and send them to this box? Like,
I will happily for that to someone who will help
me do that so I can do something else.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, even though I'm sure I'd be pretty good at.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, or I mean all of the things with the
not getting into it much both insurance, with the various
box checking and organization level skills required for this, it
turns out someone like Sarah is excellent at that. But again,
is it the best use of a physician's time to
be doing those things?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So looking for opportunities like that, right, Sarah, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, and if you are doing any sort of work,
really you can think about, well, Okay, I could do X,
but could I find somebody else to help me with X?
And so certainly over the years, you know, I have
a virtual assistant. Now I have some help with drafting
and coming up with ideas for different things, certainly with
the statistical aspects of my challenges, and that's made it
(15:40):
possible for me to spend more of my time actually writing,
which turns out that the content creation part of my
job is what I love doing most. So the more
time I can spend on that and the less time
I spend on other things, the better off we are.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I've never edited up podcast track. I have no idea
how to do that. And I also hire a designer
to make all of my kind of PDF workbooks and
things because I know she does it so much better
than I would ever do it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Now, with that, there might be some new technologies that
can help make your work easier or more interesting. I
mean you're leaning into that with sort of the medical
literature search concept right now.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Open evidence if you haven't used it is an awesome
tool that is sort of like chat GPT mixed with PubMed,
so it actually like pulls the sources of the information
that it spits out, but it spits it out in
very digestible form, and it's really good for answering very
specific questions, like you're like, well, how often do patients
with this condition not test gene positive? Like that would
(16:46):
take a little time to dig out, but open evidence
can find that very very quickly and give you citations
so you can double check. So I do feel like
we're like, yeah, we're in a sweet spot right now
with AI, where like your job isn't eaten yet, but
you can possibly benefit, so yeah, definitely better.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Well, I mean I don't use AI
to write for me, but in many cases sometimes.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
AI writes better than some people.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
So uh, that could be a thing that would be
helpful if you don't find writing fun creating first drafts
of things, having a system create a first draft within
your parameters that you didn't go in and make better.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
What if I was like I do that with every
blog post. I never write them anymore. There are certain
context where it's just so like no, please.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, like the whole time or enjoying writing my you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Like that personal angle, like this came from a human
who is having these real human thoughts that they're putting
out there.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Like I guess we're just saying be.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Judicial, but I mean, like, obviously, you know, it could
make your resume look better or whatever. You know, there's
all sorts of things that like you or you know,
if you have to answer a couple quick questions for
a conference prep work, like, you know, there's all sorts
of ways that you can use it as your assistant
and make life a little bit easier for you, which
(18:14):
might help you spend more time on the favorite kinds
of work that you do enjoy. And then you can
obviously do things like take good breaks. So people have
varying amounts of control over what they spend their work
time doing, but we all have some control over the
time at work when we are not working, and everyone
(18:35):
takes breaks. It is just a question of whether they
are intentional or not. You know, I've had people tell me, oh,
I don't take breaks. I just read email newsletters here
and there. When I get a few minutes, I'm like, okay,
that's a break.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's a break.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, but maybe that's not the most rejuvening thing. I mean,
I love email newsletters. You should definitely read mind you
would probably find that a great break. But if that's
not making you feel rejuvenated, then think about what can
I do, Like, what are two ten minute many vacations
I could take in the course of my day, Like
what would maximize my relaxation or rejuvenation in ten to
(19:11):
fifteen minutes that I can plan in twice during the day.
How can I make sure that that happens and that
I enjoy that as much as possible?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
For me, it's a walk outside and then also doing
exactly what you just said, but like reading blogs and
responding to them, like but purposefully purpose Like, Okay, I
know I have forty minutes, so I want to walk
for twenty minutes, and then I want to like catch
up on my parasocial relationships for twenty minutes on blogs.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and it could be anything. I mean, make yourself
a list of potential breaks. Maybe it's reading a chapter
in a book. Maybe it's calling a friend, Maybe it's
going for a walk. Maybe if you're working at home,
it could be something like going out to your garden
for a few minutes. Maybe if you know you get
coffee with a work friend, You could read a magazine,
you could listen to some inspiring music, go outside and
(19:58):
listen to a podcast for a bit to just get
some sunshine. Lots of things you can do, but when
you have a list ahead of time, then you're not
sort of stumped for what to do. Would open time
appears And when we're stumped, we don't sit there and go, huh,
what would I do? We just do whatever as easiest,
which again is going to be deleting emails that didn't
have to be deleted, then reading headlines. These are our
(20:19):
electronic hobbies. So if you want to spend a little
less time on your electronic hobbies and more on your
real hobbies, creating a break portfolio for each day can
help you do that.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I think if you struggle with this, this is one
where like creating a little sticky note or a little reminder,
you don't have to have that forever, but might actually
encourage you like, oh right, I identify these things I
want to do.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Let me try to not just go to those defaults.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, And I would say if you do have more
flexibility with your time and more autonomy, you can get
a little bit adventurous in your breaks.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Adventures don't have to only happen on weekends.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Now, obviously you are not going to take probably a
full hour out to every day, but maybe you consciously
take like a quick lunch two or three days, and
then on a day that you're working from home, go somewhere,
like go to that museum, go walk it apart, go
meet a friend, and have a leisurely lunch.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But actually really lean into that.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So you have something memorable that you've done and you're like, oh, yeah,
that my job pays me good money and allows me
to do this, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Some people really do have an hour two and you
can do a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I was thinking, like you could get your nails done, like,
you could do a pretty significant workout. You could browse
a bookstore, like, There's a lot you could choose to
do if you have a full hour and the ability.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
To go somewhere.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Which again, if you do have a full hour or
even you know, forty five minutes or whatever, if you
actually truly do get this time and it's expected that
you will do something not at your work, which is
certainly the case in certain jobs, and some you actually
have to punch out for a certain amount of time
in the middle of the day. Don't go into the
day not knowing what you're going to do.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Now you can change it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Like if your favorite colleague is like, hey, did you
see that food truck is over two blocks away, Let's
go get lunch together. Like, obviously, change what you are
doing and go do that. But having an idea of
what you want to do will make the work day
a lot more pleasant. All Right, We're going to take
one more quick ad break and then we'll move back
with more on keeping it hot at work. Well, we
(22:28):
are back talking about how you can re engage with work,
rekindle the flame, make work a little bit more exciting,
even if you have been there for years or potentially
even more than a decade, certainly using your professional development
perks is a big win.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Sarah, you have I will say, wasted mind.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
HAVE been talking with you a great many times over
the past two years, and I know you love to
go to your professional endocrine conferences, and yet somehow you
have not gone.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Explain it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I don't know, Like two years ago there was some
gymnastics thing, and then a year ago, well a year
ago I was like took one for the team, like
everyone wanted to go to the same conference, and I
was like, you know what, I'm busy.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Then I don't feel that passionate. I'll go to a
different one.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And then when a time came to register for the
different one, I was like, I still have too much
going on. It was in the middle of July. I
went to Philadelphia in July. First we had something else
going on, I feel like the beginning of August, and
I was like, it's too many things. And to be fair,
like my medicals when I when I made that switch,
I hadn't had all that hard stuff happen and this
was like still relatively fresh. So I was like, forget it.
But this year, I'm going going.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I'm going.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It's in California, so it's not convenient, but I'm still
going and it's going to happen this time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Because there's not perfect time. I mean, they're really perfect
time and it's fun.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And if you're in if you're lucky enough to be
in a job where you get to do some travel
that is like fully comped and you're that is like
a lovely thing to embrace and get to experience, especially
if it means seeing old friends and so yeah, one
fun thing that I have learned since hosting a course,
some people use their professional development money for my my courses,
and I'm like, I love that so much. I still
(24:02):
don't feel like if we were able to get like
professional like CME for Bestly Plans Live, we could we
could expand.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, sometimes make sure when it was coney.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, the conferences I've talked at are like an event
organization hosts that they've done the paperwork that it can
be for continuing professional development credit for whatever their credentialing
bodies are. And of course then you get a much
better attendance because people are like, well, I got to
get my credits somehow, and this looks a lot more
interesting than many other things I could be doing, so
which is awesome when that happens. But yeah, no, if
(24:35):
not using your professional development funds is basically like leaving
a raise on the table, right, This is money that
is budgeted for you, and so if it is there,
you should figure out how to do it. And the
upside is that you often will become more engaged in
your work. I mean, this is why people budget money
for it for their employees. Is because they know when
you go to that conference, you're like, oh, yeah, I
like this, or oh, here's an exciting new thing I
(24:57):
can try, or it's always so great to see Joe
and Bob again. And you know, you just become more
excited about your job for at least some amount of
time afterwards, which if it gets you to keep.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Working there for another six months is great then that's
why they do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Plus you're like more up to date with stuff, so
you feel better about the quality of your everything. It
has multiple benefits, So don't be me.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Don't be Sarah. We should be Sarah in many ways,
but not that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
But yeah, and if you really got here, I just
had a little hiatus.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And if you are working for yourself, running your own
small business obviously is great if you can figure out
ways for your employees to do things like this, but
you can do it for yourself as well. I know
a lot of people have found it life changing to
form organizations of other people who are facing similar challenges
to you. So if you are running a small business,
maybe recruit five other people who are running small businesses
(25:47):
and either same lines of work or that have similar
revenue and so they're facing the same challenges you are,
and you get together, you know, once or twice a year,
you become friends and colleagues in addition to you know,
just balancing thing off each other professionally, and that can
keep you engaged in your work for a.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Lot longer as well. Yes, which you do and you enjoy.
I do and I enjoy now.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Of course, one of the perks of many salary jobs
is that you get paid time off. Which one way
to make sure that you are not burned out and
that you are still feeling energized for your work is
to make sure that you take your paid time off.
So Sarah, you, I mean there were times I know
in the past when you were making sure that you
had enough because your little kids might be sick at
(26:31):
any given point. But now we've been able to lean
a bit more into the travel and sort of rejuvenative
days off even if you're not traveling right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, totally, Yeah, And I think it's very important to
really understand what your PTO policies where you are. I'm
not even sure everyone I work with would know how
many hours they get for pay period and like how
much disability time, how much PTO time and It's something
I learned to pay attention to because I want to
maximize those days. And I think one of the most
heart things if you have someone that's like I am
(27:02):
so tired, be like, well, what's your PCO balance? And
it's like, I have many days I could have used
this year and didn't, and it's like, okay, then why
don't we figure out make sure that you are using
those in a way that fits you. And I think
real time spent figuring out how to best allocate those
days if you have a limited number of them, or
even if you have a technically unlimited number of them,
(27:23):
but really obviously everyone's kind of limited. Really thinking about
this is when I'm going to travel, maybe this is
when I'm going to do a day off to do
a seasonal planning session with myself, and this is when
I'm going to take a short weekend away with my
husband or whatever. But really like thinking about how many
days you have, how do you want to spread them
throughout the year, how do you want to use them
(27:44):
to maximize your joy? Because they are a job benefit,
and I guess I would argue that for most people,
they should use every single day that they have, even
if there's like a possible payout if you don't use them.
I mean, yes, if money is true tight and you
get paid for days you don't use and you really
need that money, I get it. But like beyond that,
(28:05):
probably the time it's going to be more valuable for
most people listening to this.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, and finally, you should reflect on what you want
your next steps to be. Now.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Obviously, people don't stay in jobs forever.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Most people are not going to take a job at
the beginning of their career and then retire from it
forty years later, so there probably will be a next step.
But sometimes spending some time thinking about what you think
that next step would be and what you're interested in
and looking for can make your current situation feel better
as well, because you know you're like, oh, well, I'm
I'm learning this now and that's going to be helpful
(28:36):
in my next step, or I'm meeting all these people
and that's going to be helpful in my next step too.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I mean, Sarah, you've reflected on this as well.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, I mean for me, it's like part of my
annual planning processes.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It's built in, like what do we want for my
life in the future.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
But not everybody does that, So if you don't think
about when and where you would want to sit down
and really think about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I should probably do more of that. But you know,
so far, so good. Keep muddling along.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
By the time this airs, you will have had some
chance to It's true.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
At best, like plans life, I will have set my
goals for twenty twenty six and we'll see what I
want to bite off every ur the next year. Right,
so we've been talking how to rekindle the flame at work.
This question is also from somebody thinking about work scause
my job is really stressful. I often think about fire
that's financial independence, retire early, but cannot help feeling like
(29:30):
if I only work a few more years, things will
be better for our family and the kids. Yet I
feel like I'm trading away the prime of my life. Help,
What should I think about doing well?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
In addition to listening to this episode, so you can
maybe think about things that you do appreciate about your
job or maybe ways to tweak it in that direction.
I would definitely make sure that you are not going
through this thought process with like theoreticals like well, I
think we could find like there should be no, think
there should be like I have run and that calculator
and this and that simulation looking at what happens if
(30:04):
my partner doesn't work, if I don't work, if we
both don't work, Like why our life cell look like
what would be able to afford? Like what would the
trade offs be? And really be very concrete with that.
You can do a DIY version of that if you're
savvy enough. You can use an app or you can
do it with an advisor. But I think if you're
making this big of a decision, you just need to
like really have numbers in place.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
That's number one.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And then other thoughts are again kind of going through
the things in this episode, But is there one pain point?
Like could you find a job that's kind of like
your job but removes whatever the thing is that makes
you feel like you're wasting your life away? Like maybe
there's one big source of stress.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Maybe it's the commute.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Could you find a remote version or figure out something
closer to you, et cetera. And then I guess one
kind of twist on this and you've probably thought of
this if you're sending this question in, but like could
you use the skills you've developed, but figure out if
there's a way that you could do it in a
more freelance and autonomous fashion, because I think one of
the things that stresses people out the moment most in
(31:00):
certain corporate roles, it is just the utter lack of autonomy. Yet,
if you've been with a role long enough, maybe you
do have some skills that would be translatable to something
where you are more in charge. It may come with
more risks, but if you've done those calculations, you may
be able to see that you could weather those risks.
So I think that that is an avenue to certainly
pursue as an option.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, I mean definitely.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
One thing you should do in addition to figuring out
what your net worth is and what it's going to
grow to and what you could reasonably live on and
whether those trade offs are worth it to you is
to track your time because it can be empowering to
realize how much time is available outside of work. If
you are working forty hours a week, we've done this
(31:43):
calculation here before, there are one hundred and sixty eight
hours in a week. If you are sleeping eight hours
a night, so that's fifty six hours a week. Subtract
fifty six and forty from one hundred and sixty eight,
you get seventy two hours for other things. So even
if you are not thrilled with the forty hours you
are working, can you make yourself thrilled with the seventy
two hours.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You are not working?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And then you know, like, hey, the good stuff is
almost twice as much as the job that I'm finding stressful.
I should really lean into the rest of my life,
you know, get a hobby, join a pickleball league, go
volunteer somewhere.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You might really enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Just recognizing that full time work is not the full
amount of your time, that word is a misnomer. I
wish there were another word to describe thirty five to
forty hours of work a week. There isn't, but it
isn't the full amount of your time. And the more
you can keep repeating that to yourself, the more you
might be able to compartmentalize what's going on. Go ahead
(32:36):
and look for another job. Right, there are so many
other options beyond quitting your job and never working again.
Right looking for another job, people tell themselves a story like, oh, well,
there's not gonna be anything that pays as well and
uses my skills in this area.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Do you know that?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Like, do you absolutely know that? If so, fine, But
if you just haven't looked, then you don't know. It
could be that a company that's far away is willing
to hire you remotely, right, And then maybe they were
even paying more because they're located in an expensive area
and so their salary base is different, So you're gonna
earn more, have more autonomy, and be doing different work. Like,
you just don't know until you've really looked at what
(33:18):
is out there. People have never truly optimized on jobs.
It's always possible that you can find something that pays better,
you like more, and is more flexible.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Right. I love when you bring that up about the optimization, Like,
what is the chance do you just happened to land
in the most unicorn perfect, you know, highest paying, highest
reward job that you could have landed in, and there's
nothing better? But the chances of that are like seriously
very unlikely. Yeah, yes, so just remember that your employer
(33:49):
doesn't want you to think about that, but you have to.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh, you realize jobs all the time. It is totally fine,
So see what else is out there? And if there's
something you'd prefer to be doing. There's also the middle
ground of coming up, as Sarah say, ways to bring
in an income that don't involve working full time. Like
you can freelance. You can possibly even do your job
(34:12):
on an ad hoc basis for your current employer or
another one in the industry, so that you still have
some money coming in so you're not just living off
the interest income on your savings, because again, if you
retire early enough, it's gonna be a long time that
you're going to be trying to live off of this.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And that's fine if you can do it. Great.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Many people decide, even though after you know that they
do fire, that they want to do some sort of
work because work provides structure for life.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It provides a sense of purpose.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
So even if you don't need the money, you might
find yourself looking for things that you'd like to do.
So if you have particular skills in area, why don't
you just start doing that. You can work twenty hours
a week doing it on the projects you choose and
still be building the nest egg allbe at a perhaps
slightly slower rate versus pulling it down.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So yeah, all right, Well, love of the week. Do
we have a work themed one from you, Laura?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
My office, like I love my home office. It's really great.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It has nice windows, nice wood shelves. I have a
fireplace in there, which is gonna be great as we
get into winter. I have my recording closet, which apparently
has very very expensive wallpaper on the wall.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Like, who knew.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I didn't put that wallpaper, and I never would have
paid for it, but it was here and I didn't
rip it out. Now I'm glad I didn't because I've
had people see me in my zoom room as I
call it, and comment on the wallpaper when they know
something about it. So that's exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah. So it's really a great space. So I lucked
out on that. Love it well. Mine is the concept
of PTO.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I mean, one might argue in the US we could
have even more of that, because, as I know, in
other countries is customary. But honestly, just the idea that
you're allocated in a lot of career situations with days
that are just for you to decide what to do
with them. You'll still get paid and still have your
benefits is really nice and we should all maximize it.
(36:04):
And enjoy it and look for situations where we can
get enough of it but keep us happy.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah sounds good.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, this has been best of both worlds. We've been
talking about rekindling the flame at work. We will be
back next week with more on making work and life
fit together.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
next time for more on making work and life work together.
Hi.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 3 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun,
from figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 1 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 1 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 2 (00:43):
This episode is airing in sort of early mid November
of twenty twenty five. We are going to be talking
about rekindling the work flame, so long time listeners may
recall it. A few months ago we had an episode
called keep It Hot, which was about long term romantic
partnerships and how one could keep the flame live there.
(01:05):
And it turns out that there are some parallels with
work as well. If you've been in your job for
a great many years, sometimes things can start to feel
a little bit stale, less exciting than you might hope.
But there are things that you can do to make
your work life more exciting and interesting for you as well, now,
obviously there are some key differences between your marriage and
(01:29):
your job. One is that you should definitely change jobs
if you get a much better offer of something you
would rather do where there are a few more repercussions
doing that. With your marriage, you probably really want to
think about that with all the trauma that what we cause.
But you know, the grass is not always greener, and
so sometimes when people think we need a different job,
you know, all jobs have their issues. I've definitely seen
(01:52):
people in yours report to me that they're like, Oh,
this job is so stressful and terrible. My coworkers are
awful and you can't trust them. And then you're like,
I'm gonna get a different job. It's like great, great,
go do that. And then within the first year at
that job, they're like, oh, it's so awful and stressful
and I'm working all the time and my coworkers are
tarable and I can't trust them. It's like, hmm, there's
a similarity, one thing in common for sure, between these
(02:12):
two jobs. So we need to sometimes look at ourselves
as well. But anyway, Sarah, you've been in your job
for a great many years. Sarah, maybe you can talk
about how you've come to think about this.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Sure, Yeah, I have been in my clinical job for
twelve years now, very exciting, really kind of getting up there.
I feel like once maybe in the upper teams, I'll
really feel like, Okay, I am old guard.
Speaker 1 (02:34):
I feel like I'm mid guard right now.
Speaker 3 (02:37):
So, but recently I was just having some nothing specific,
just like minor job angst. I think everyone knows. Healthcare,
you know, has a lot of stuff going on right now,
especially like insurance types of issues and things like that.
And I just found myself wondering, like, are there things
I can do to feel more engaged at work and
to maybe embrace the positive things about it, and like
(02:58):
see if I can enjoy my day to day a
little little bit more. And I thought of it as
kind of an experiment, because really, if I was continuing
to feel down about certain things, then maybe it would
have been time to think about different situations. And I
actually did find that some of the things I tried
ended up helping me, Like, I feel more content than
I did even a couple of months ago, with no
real change in the other the things that were bothering me.
(03:21):
I guess, so I guess this kind of inspired some
of these tips, and this episode as well as of
course are keep it hot episode because everyone should go
back and listen to that if they.
Speaker 2 (03:31):
Haven't, absolutely, so, yes, we're going to keep it hot
at work.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
So one of the.
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Things you can do, I mean, obviously in many situations
that feeling a bit stale is you can reflect on
what you actually like about it, right, So, I mean,
there are the things you.
Speaker 1 (03:43):
Truly love about your clinical job.
Speaker 3 (03:46):
Yeah, you should sit there with a pen and paper,
and even if you are in one of those moments
when you're thinking about fire or you're thinking about some
dressed career pivot, think about what you would lose if
you were to do a change. And that is going
to basically be a list of the things that you
do like about your current situation. Because we can tend
(04:07):
to be biased towards you know, what's wrong, what's the
thing we want to fix, you know, what's that nagging
situation or something like that, But maybe there's also some
great things about going to work every day, whether it
is seeing colleagues that you like. Maybe your work hours
are actually pretty darn reasonable. When you do your time
tracking and you look at it and you're like huh,
my hourly pay, my work hours are manageable. I don't
(04:28):
feel stressed outside of work.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Things like that.
Speaker 3 (04:30):
I mean, maybe those things don't apply to you, but
I think it is important. And it can be tangible
stuff too, like again, your compensation or your paid time off,
or even things like opportunity to learn or opportunity to
feel like you have meeting at certain points during your job.
Might not be every minute, but maybe there's like a
moment per week where you feel really good. You should
reflect on those things, and I highly recommend like literally
(04:51):
writing them down.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Yeah, what do I love about my job? What would
I miss if I weren't doing this? And even if
you do wind up finding something else, having a list
of what you really like will be helpful.
Speaker 1 (05:03):
As you go into the search.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
You're like, actually, it really is important to me that
I have some flexibility over my hours. And then you know,
when you're negotiating your next position, you're like, look, I
need this, see this list. These things have to happen
here for me to leave. What is a reasonable situation
to go do something else? So, yeah, you definitely want
that list. You also might want to consider trying a
few things. One is engaging more with your colleagues, right, Sarah.
Speaker 3 (05:27):
Yeah, I feel like if you are in a down moment,
your instinct might actually be to pull back. I don't
feel like responding to that group chat, I don't want
to go to that party.
Speaker 1 (05:37):
What meetings can I get out of?
Speaker 3 (05:38):
And sometimes I think that can really really backfire because like,
the less engaged you are, the less engaged you will be.
So perhaps forcing yourself to like put your opinion in there,
if you have experience and you know you have something
to add or make sure to attend that gathering, that
can actually paradoxically help. Now, of course, if you're just
(05:58):
burned out and you're dispending way too much time at work,
I'm not like advocating to add a bunch of extras,
but look to see if there are things or like
little ways in which you can maybe participate, because you
actually might find that igniting rather than adding to the
burden side of work.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
Yeah, you also want to notice little good moments, right,
like a work love of the week as it were.
Speaker 3 (06:19):
Yeah, I mean, if you have a day where something
went really well, like write that down somewhere or like
actually think about it or reflect on it and if
you can't find any Like if a week goes by
and you're like, I cannot think of a single positive
thing that I did relate it to my work, that
actually probably is something that needs to be thought about.
(06:41):
Either are there ways to maybe alter your situation to
add in more of those small winds, or maybe you
do need to make some kind of change, because I
think we're going to talk about how, yes, your job
is not all of your waking hours, but it's a
sizeable enough chunk of your waking hours and energy that
if there is literally nothing you can pull out that
(07:01):
brings you a little bit of satisfaction or joy, I
do think that's.
Speaker 1 (07:05):
Kind of problematic. Yeah, I don't know, Like, can we
think of some examples for me?
Speaker 3 (07:09):
I had a call week recently and it was a
totally stressful call week because I have never seen a
list this long. But I ended up having a case
where I kind of figured something out in a very
rare type of a condition and I felt so good
about that, and I could tell the parent felt really
relieve that we figured something out, and she felt like
I was very much trying hard to figure it out.
(07:31):
And then I like ended up seeing her the week
after and like, I'm following this patient really closely, and
I'm like, yeah, wow, this is what I did this for,
not focusing on maybe how some other patient was very
upset at us because their insurance didn't cover a certain med.
Speaker 1 (07:44):
So what about you, Like, are there good.
Speaker 3 (07:47):
Moments that you reflect on sometimes maybe at the end
of a week, like a great interview or I don't know.
Speaker 1 (07:54):
Yeah, I mean it's a little different.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
Just because you know, you run your own business over
long years, you tend to least I do, orient it
toward things that I actually want to do. So I
have a very low tolerance for things that I don't
want to do, and that means that there's a lot
of love of the weeks. Right I'm enjoying recording this
(08:17):
right now. I'm you know, like writing things. I'm always
excited when I get nice feedback from people on something
that they've read of mine and it was impactful in
their life in some way.
Speaker 1 (08:30):
So there's a lot it.
Speaker 3 (08:33):
Must have been fun to get those images. I don't
know if you can share a lot about that. But
the actual physical way that your book is going to
look is starting to take shape, and that's exciting.
Speaker 1 (08:43):
Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
I mean, well there's obviously things that like there's annoyances
in every job, right, Like I'm going through the copy
edits of my book and something was changed that now
all needs to be changed back, which is just extra time.
But we're making the best possible book, so it's good
to ask these things. And you know, again I also
remind myself like if we're arguing over very very tiny details,
(09:08):
like that's a good place to be in, Like there's
not big stuff that's being changed with anything. But yeah,
I got to see covers, which is was just really exciting,
Like when you have a cover you're excited about and
you can actually picture a version of this in bookstores
that you're like, that's what the book is going to
look like. That's this idea that I had years ago
is now going to be this physical thing. I mean,
(09:29):
it's just a very exciting. I'm using that word way
too much, but you know, I do like it. And
when there's things I really don't like that I do
my best to get rid of them, which we'll get
to in a moment.
Speaker 3 (09:41):
Yes, And I just want to add to as we
were talking about engagement, I had a special note to
just bring up like participating in the social extras, because
most jobs do have things that are entirely optional. And again,
if you're in that like burnt out mode, you're going
to skip the baby shower or not organize the lunch.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
But sometimes those are like some of the most rewarding.
Speaker 3 (10:03):
Parts, depending on where you are in your career and
what you're doing and how hard the rest of it is.
So I very much encourage people to say yes to
those little.
Speaker 2 (10:12):
Extras yeah, or come up with them your own if
you are working by yourself, which over the past few years,
I've definitely been more proactive about building work relationships and
sort of recurring things that you see people that you
work with. You don't really work with them, you both
are doing similar work, but they become sort of like
colleagues because you see them and talk with them frequently
(10:36):
and they know what's going on in your working life,
and you can create those and that can definitely make
work feel more exciting for sure. Now, obviously, if there
are people who are toxic, we want to get away
from that, right Sarah.
Speaker 3 (10:50):
I mean, that is something that can make I've talked
to multiple people who it sometimes can just come down
to one person, and maybe even an interurn move where
you're almost doing the same job, which but just with
a different supervisor or different coworker.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Might make all the difference.
Speaker 3 (11:08):
So I do feel if you can pinpoint a ton
of your angs to one person, sometimes that is a
situation that it's like, no, I would focus on changing that.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
You don't have to change jobs per se, But I
don't know the one thing. You know, if you can
get rid of the one pain point, that would be
really helpful. We're going to take a quick ad break
and then we would be back with more on rekindling
the flame at work.
Speaker 1 (11:40):
Well, we are back.
Speaker 2 (11:41):
Talking about how we can rekindle the flame at work.
You know, it's the keep it hot version for not
a marriage, but a job that you have been in
for many years, if not a decade or more so.
One thing you can do is we talked about making
a list of what you enjoy at your job, the
things that you like. Are there ways you could craft
(12:02):
your job to spend more time on the things you like,
And again, it doesn't have to be much. We don't
have to say, well, I was spending two hours a
week on this and now I'm gonna be spending twenty
five on it, And if you're gonna pull that off,
great more power to you. But if you are spending
two hours a week on it, could you spend three
or four? Right? Is that something that you could get
to Would you be able to trim other things, maybe
(12:24):
be a little bit less responsive on the email in
order to carve out some time for this, or delegate
a meeting to somebody else to spend a little bit
more time on your favorite work. That can be the
equivalent of putting in a date night into your long
term partnership. That makes it feel a little bit more
like this is something you are excited about totally.
Speaker 3 (12:45):
And I feel like I've engaged in that sort of
career crafting on both sides of what I do, whether
it's emphasizing certain types of specialty clinics or on the
creative side, like, oh, I really like talking about planning
and teaching about planning, you know what, I'll go hard
in that direction because it's so much fun for me.
I mean that no one was like, hey, I think
(13:05):
that is what you should do, but like I really
enjoyed it, and so that both ended up resonating and
ended up being like a really satisfying part of my job.
Sometimes efforts of this fail. Fun fact, my Giant Health
System at one point was like, we're starting a podcast,
and I'm like, I should host the podcast. You guys,
I didn't even get a call back, which is hilarious,
Like what insulted?
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I mean, why why? Why didn't they?
Speaker 3 (13:28):
It's okay, I actually don't even know if they move
forward with the project. To be honest, this is like
a few years ago, and it might have just been like,
never mind, we're not really doing this. But I look
to see, like, oh, has this podcast like hit the charts,
like who's doing it? And I couldn't find it, So okay,
it might have just been that they moved on.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Maybe maybe it never happened, but yeah, yeah, no, that
was the hot thing for a while, Like every organization
has to have their own podcast, but you don't.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
I don't know how hard this is. Okay, they don't,
they don't. In fact, you appreciate your own podcast. You
should think long and hard about that.
Speaker 2 (13:59):
But with trying to add more time of the things
that you want to do, there's also the case to
be made for spending less time on the things that
you do not want to do now done right, Delegating
and outsourcing is not so much just about getting rid
of things you don't want to do. It is about
recognizing what is the highest value of your time, and
(14:20):
even if you can do something really well, sometimes that
is not the best way for you to be spending
your time. So Sarah can give an excellent checkout for
her her patient visits, but as you might imagine, it
would be best for her to move on to the
next patient and start seeing the next patient to write Sarah.
Speaker 3 (14:40):
Correct or things like you know, I'll get a message
in my inbox. It's like, can you print these lab
orders that you've already ordered and send them to this box? Like,
I will happily for that to someone who will help
me do that so I can do something else.
Speaker 1 (14:54):
Yeah, even though I'm sure I'd be pretty good at.
Speaker 2 (14:56):
Yeah, or I mean all of the things with the
not getting into it much both insurance, with the various
box checking and organization level skills required for this, it
turns out someone like Sarah is excellent at that. But again,
is it the best use of a physician's time to
be doing those things?
Speaker 1 (15:13):
So looking for opportunities like that, right, Sarah, definitely. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (15:18):
Well, and if you are doing any sort of work,
really you can think about, well, Okay, I could do X,
but could I find somebody else to help me with X?
And so certainly over the years, you know, I have
a virtual assistant. Now I have some help with drafting
and coming up with ideas for different things, certainly with
the statistical aspects of my challenges, and that's made it
(15:40):
possible for me to spend more of my time actually writing,
which turns out that the content creation part of my
job is what I love doing most. So the more
time I can spend on that and the less time
I spend on other things, the better off we are.
Speaker 3 (15:59):
I've never edited up podcast track. I have no idea
how to do that. And I also hire a designer
to make all of my kind of PDF workbooks and
things because I know she does it so much better
than I would ever do it.
Speaker 1 (16:11):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (16:12):
Now, with that, there might be some new technologies that
can help make your work easier or more interesting. I
mean you're leaning into that with sort of the medical
literature search concept right now.
Speaker 1 (16:25):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (16:25):
Open evidence if you haven't used it is an awesome
tool that is sort of like chat GPT mixed with PubMed,
so it actually like pulls the sources of the information
that it spits out, but it spits it out in
very digestible form, and it's really good for answering very
specific questions, like you're like, well, how often do patients
with this condition not test gene positive? Like that would
(16:46):
take a little time to dig out, but open evidence
can find that very very quickly and give you citations
so you can double check. So I do feel like
we're like, yeah, we're in a sweet spot right now
with AI, where like your job isn't eaten yet, but
you can possibly benefit, so yeah, definitely better.
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Yeah yeah, yeah, Well, I mean I don't use AI
to write for me, but in many cases sometimes.
Speaker 1 (17:14):
AI writes better than some people.
Speaker 2 (17:17):
So uh, that could be a thing that would be
helpful if you don't find writing fun creating first drafts
of things, having a system create a first draft within
your parameters that you didn't go in and make better.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
What if I was like I do that with every
blog post. I never write them anymore. There are certain
context where it's just so like no, please.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
No, like the whole time or enjoying writing my you know, yeah, and.
Speaker 3 (17:45):
Like that personal angle, like this came from a human
who is having these real human thoughts that they're putting
out there.
Speaker 1 (17:51):
Like I guess we're just saying be.
Speaker 2 (17:53):
Judicial, but I mean, like, obviously, you know, it could
make your resume look better or whatever. You know, there's
all sorts of things that like you or you know,
if you have to answer a couple quick questions for
a conference prep work, like, you know, there's all sorts
of ways that you can use it as your assistant
and make life a little bit easier for you, which
(18:14):
might help you spend more time on the favorite kinds
of work that you do enjoy. And then you can
obviously do things like take good breaks. So people have
varying amounts of control over what they spend their work
time doing, but we all have some control over the
time at work when we are not working, and everyone
(18:35):
takes breaks. It is just a question of whether they
are intentional or not. You know, I've had people tell me, oh,
I don't take breaks. I just read email newsletters here
and there. When I get a few minutes, I'm like, okay,
that's a break.
Speaker 1 (18:47):
That's a break.
Speaker 2 (18:48):
Yeah, but maybe that's not the most rejuvening thing. I mean,
I love email newsletters. You should definitely read mind you
would probably find that a great break. But if that's
not making you feel rejuvenated, then think about what can
I do, Like, what are two ten minute many vacations
I could take in the course of my day, Like
what would maximize my relaxation or rejuvenation in ten to
(19:11):
fifteen minutes that I can plan in twice during the day.
How can I make sure that that happens and that
I enjoy that as much as possible?
Speaker 3 (19:20):
For me, it's a walk outside and then also doing
exactly what you just said, but like reading blogs and
responding to them, like but purposefully purpose Like, Okay, I
know I have forty minutes, so I want to walk
for twenty minutes, and then I want to like catch
up on my parasocial relationships for twenty minutes on blogs.
Speaker 2 (19:36):
Yeah, and it could be anything. I mean, make yourself
a list of potential breaks. Maybe it's reading a chapter
in a book. Maybe it's calling a friend, Maybe it's
going for a walk. Maybe if you're working at home,
it could be something like going out to your garden
for a few minutes. Maybe if you know you get
coffee with a work friend, You could read a magazine,
you could listen to some inspiring music, go outside and
(19:58):
listen to a podcast for a bit to just get
some sunshine. Lots of things you can do, but when
you have a list ahead of time, then you're not
sort of stumped for what to do. Would open time
appears And when we're stumped, we don't sit there and go, huh,
what would I do? We just do whatever as easiest,
which again is going to be deleting emails that didn't
have to be deleted, then reading headlines. These are our
(20:19):
electronic hobbies. So if you want to spend a little
less time on your electronic hobbies and more on your
real hobbies, creating a break portfolio for each day can
help you do that.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (20:31):
I think if you struggle with this, this is one
where like creating a little sticky note or a little reminder,
you don't have to have that forever, but might actually
encourage you like, oh right, I identify these things I
want to do.
Speaker 1 (20:42):
Let me try to not just go to those defaults.
Speaker 2 (20:44):
Yeah, And I would say if you do have more
flexibility with your time and more autonomy, you can get
a little bit adventurous in your breaks.
Speaker 1 (20:52):
Adventures don't have to only happen on weekends.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
Now, obviously you are not going to take probably a
full hour out to every day, but maybe you consciously
take like a quick lunch two or three days, and
then on a day that you're working from home, go somewhere,
like go to that museum, go walk it apart, go
meet a friend, and have a leisurely lunch.
Speaker 1 (21:12):
But actually really lean into that.
Speaker 2 (21:14):
So you have something memorable that you've done and you're like, oh, yeah,
that my job pays me good money and allows me
to do this, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (21:23):
Some people really do have an hour two and you
can do a lot.
Speaker 3 (21:26):
I was thinking, like you could get your nails done, like,
you could do a pretty significant workout. You could browse
a bookstore, like, There's a lot you could choose to
do if you have a full hour and the ability.
Speaker 1 (21:35):
To go somewhere.
Speaker 2 (21:36):
Which again, if you do have a full hour or
even you know, forty five minutes or whatever, if you
actually truly do get this time and it's expected that
you will do something not at your work, which is
certainly the case in certain jobs, and some you actually
have to punch out for a certain amount of time
in the middle of the day. Don't go into the
day not knowing what you're going to do.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Now you can change it.
Speaker 2 (21:56):
Like if your favorite colleague is like, hey, did you
see that food truck is over two blocks away, Let's
go get lunch together. Like, obviously, change what you are
doing and go do that. But having an idea of
what you want to do will make the work day
a lot more pleasant. All Right, We're going to take
one more quick ad break and then we'll move back
with more on keeping it hot at work. Well, we
(22:28):
are back talking about how you can re engage with work,
rekindle the flame, make work a little bit more exciting,
even if you have been there for years or potentially
even more than a decade, certainly using your professional development
perks is a big win.
Speaker 3 (22:43):
Sarah, you have I will say, wasted mind.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
HAVE been talking with you a great many times over
the past two years, and I know you love to
go to your professional endocrine conferences, and yet somehow you
have not gone.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
Explain it.
Speaker 3 (23:01):
I don't know, Like two years ago there was some
gymnastics thing, and then a year ago, well a year
ago I was like took one for the team, like
everyone wanted to go to the same conference, and I
was like, you know what, I'm busy.
Speaker 1 (23:10):
Then I don't feel that passionate. I'll go to a
different one.
Speaker 3 (23:12):
And then when a time came to register for the
different one, I was like, I still have too much
going on. It was in the middle of July. I
went to Philadelphia in July. First we had something else
going on, I feel like the beginning of August, and
I was like, it's too many things. And to be fair,
like my medicals when I when I made that switch,
I hadn't had all that hard stuff happen and this
was like still relatively fresh. So I was like, forget it.
But this year, I'm going going.
Speaker 1 (23:34):
I'm going.
Speaker 3 (23:34):
It's in California, so it's not convenient, but I'm still
going and it's going to happen this time.
Speaker 1 (23:38):
Because there's not perfect time. I mean, they're really perfect
time and it's fun.
Speaker 3 (23:42):
And if you're in if you're lucky enough to be
in a job where you get to do some travel
that is like fully comped and you're that is like
a lovely thing to embrace and get to experience, especially
if it means seeing old friends and so yeah, one
fun thing that I have learned since hosting a course,
some people use their professional development money for my my courses,
and I'm like, I love that so much. I still
(24:02):
don't feel like if we were able to get like
professional like CME for Bestly Plans Live, we could we
could expand.
Speaker 1 (24:09):
Yeah, sometimes make sure when it was coney.
Speaker 2 (24:12):
Yeah, the conferences I've talked at are like an event
organization hosts that they've done the paperwork that it can
be for continuing professional development credit for whatever their credentialing
bodies are. And of course then you get a much
better attendance because people are like, well, I got to
get my credits somehow, and this looks a lot more
interesting than many other things I could be doing, so
which is awesome when that happens. But yeah, no, if
(24:35):
not using your professional development funds is basically like leaving
a raise on the table, right, This is money that
is budgeted for you, and so if it is there,
you should figure out how to do it. And the
upside is that you often will become more engaged in
your work. I mean, this is why people budget money
for it for their employees. Is because they know when
you go to that conference, you're like, oh, yeah, I
like this, or oh, here's an exciting new thing I
(24:57):
can try, or it's always so great to see Joe
and Bob again. And you know, you just become more
excited about your job for at least some amount of
time afterwards, which if it gets you to keep.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
Working there for another six months is great then that's
why they do it. Yeah.
Speaker 3 (25:12):
Plus you're like more up to date with stuff, so
you feel better about the quality of your everything. It
has multiple benefits, So don't be me.
Speaker 1 (25:20):
Don't be Sarah. We should be Sarah in many ways,
but not that.
Speaker 3 (25:23):
But yeah, and if you really got here, I just
had a little hiatus.
Speaker 2 (25:26):
And if you are working for yourself, running your own
small business obviously is great if you can figure out
ways for your employees to do things like this, but
you can do it for yourself as well. I know
a lot of people have found it life changing to
form organizations of other people who are facing similar challenges
to you. So if you are running a small business,
maybe recruit five other people who are running small businesses
(25:47):
and either same lines of work or that have similar
revenue and so they're facing the same challenges you are,
and you get together, you know, once or twice a year,
you become friends and colleagues in addition to you know,
just balancing thing off each other professionally, and that can
keep you engaged in your work for a.
Speaker 1 (26:04):
Lot longer as well. Yes, which you do and you enjoy.
I do and I enjoy now.
Speaker 2 (26:09):
Of course, one of the perks of many salary jobs
is that you get paid time off. Which one way
to make sure that you are not burned out and
that you are still feeling energized for your work is
to make sure that you take your paid time off.
So Sarah, you, I mean there were times I know
in the past when you were making sure that you
had enough because your little kids might be sick at
(26:31):
any given point. But now we've been able to lean
a bit more into the travel and sort of rejuvenative
days off even if you're not traveling right.
Speaker 3 (26:40):
Yeah, totally, Yeah, And I think it's very important to
really understand what your PTO policies where you are. I'm
not even sure everyone I work with would know how
many hours they get for pay period and like how
much disability time, how much PTO time and It's something
I learned to pay attention to because I want to
maximize those days. And I think one of the most
heart things if you have someone that's like I am
(27:02):
so tired, be like, well, what's your PCO balance? And
it's like, I have many days I could have used
this year and didn't, and it's like, okay, then why
don't we figure out make sure that you are using
those in a way that fits you. And I think
real time spent figuring out how to best allocate those
days if you have a limited number of them, or
even if you have a technically unlimited number of them,
(27:23):
but really obviously everyone's kind of limited. Really thinking about
this is when I'm going to travel, maybe this is
when I'm going to do a day off to do
a seasonal planning session with myself, and this is when
I'm going to take a short weekend away with my
husband or whatever. But really like thinking about how many
days you have, how do you want to spread them
throughout the year, how do you want to use them
(27:44):
to maximize your joy? Because they are a job benefit,
and I guess I would argue that for most people,
they should use every single day that they have, even
if there's like a possible payout if you don't use them.
I mean, yes, if money is true tight and you
get paid for days you don't use and you really
need that money, I get it. But like beyond that,
(28:05):
probably the time it's going to be more valuable for
most people listening to this.
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, and finally, you should reflect on what you want
your next steps to be. Now.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Obviously, people don't stay in jobs forever.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Most people are not going to take a job at
the beginning of their career and then retire from it
forty years later, so there probably will be a next step.
But sometimes spending some time thinking about what you think
that next step would be and what you're interested in
and looking for can make your current situation feel better
as well, because you know you're like, oh, well, I'm
I'm learning this now and that's going to be helpful
(28:36):
in my next step, or I'm meeting all these people
and that's going to be helpful in my next step too.
Speaker 1 (28:40):
I mean, Sarah, you've reflected on this as well.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
Yeah, I mean for me, it's like part of my
annual planning processes.
Speaker 1 (28:47):
It's built in, like what do we want for my
life in the future.
Speaker 3 (28:49):
But not everybody does that, So if you don't think
about when and where you would want to sit down
and really think about that, Yeah.
Speaker 2 (28:56):
I should probably do more of that. But you know,
so far, so good. Keep muddling along.
Speaker 3 (29:02):
Well.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
By the time this airs, you will have had some
chance to It's true.
Speaker 2 (29:05):
At best, like plans life, I will have set my
goals for twenty twenty six and we'll see what I
want to bite off every ur the next year. Right,
so we've been talking how to rekindle the flame at work.
This question is also from somebody thinking about work scause
my job is really stressful. I often think about fire
that's financial independence, retire early, but cannot help feeling like
(29:30):
if I only work a few more years, things will
be better for our family and the kids. Yet I
feel like I'm trading away the prime of my life. Help,
What should I think about doing well?
Speaker 3 (29:42):
In addition to listening to this episode, so you can
maybe think about things that you do appreciate about your
job or maybe ways to tweak it in that direction.
I would definitely make sure that you are not going
through this thought process with like theoreticals like well, I
think we could find like there should be no, think
there should be like I have run and that calculator
and this and that simulation looking at what happens if
(30:04):
my partner doesn't work, if I don't work, if we
both don't work, Like why our life cell look like
what would be able to afford? Like what would the
trade offs be? And really be very concrete with that.
You can do a DIY version of that if you're
savvy enough. You can use an app or you can
do it with an advisor. But I think if you're
making this big of a decision, you just need to
like really have numbers in place.
Speaker 1 (30:23):
That's number one.
Speaker 3 (30:25):
And then other thoughts are again kind of going through
the things in this episode, But is there one pain point?
Like could you find a job that's kind of like
your job but removes whatever the thing is that makes
you feel like you're wasting your life away? Like maybe
there's one big source of stress.
Speaker 1 (30:38):
Maybe it's the commute.
Speaker 3 (30:39):
Could you find a remote version or figure out something
closer to you, et cetera. And then I guess one
kind of twist on this and you've probably thought of
this if you're sending this question in, but like could
you use the skills you've developed, but figure out if
there's a way that you could do it in a
more freelance and autonomous fashion, because I think one of
the things that stresses people out the moment most in
(31:00):
certain corporate roles, it is just the utter lack of autonomy. Yet,
if you've been with a role long enough, maybe you
do have some skills that would be translatable to something
where you are more in charge. It may come with
more risks, but if you've done those calculations, you may
be able to see that you could weather those risks.
So I think that that is an avenue to certainly
pursue as an option.
Speaker 1 (31:20):
Yeah, I mean definitely.
Speaker 2 (31:22):
One thing you should do in addition to figuring out
what your net worth is and what it's going to
grow to and what you could reasonably live on and
whether those trade offs are worth it to you is
to track your time because it can be empowering to
realize how much time is available outside of work. If
you are working forty hours a week, we've done this
(31:43):
calculation here before, there are one hundred and sixty eight
hours in a week. If you are sleeping eight hours
a night, so that's fifty six hours a week. Subtract
fifty six and forty from one hundred and sixty eight,
you get seventy two hours for other things. So even
if you are not thrilled with the forty hours you
are working, can you make yourself thrilled with the seventy
two hours.
Speaker 1 (31:59):
You are not working?
Speaker 2 (32:00):
And then you know, like, hey, the good stuff is
almost twice as much as the job that I'm finding stressful.
I should really lean into the rest of my life,
you know, get a hobby, join a pickleball league, go
volunteer somewhere.
Speaker 1 (32:11):
You might really enjoy that.
Speaker 2 (32:13):
Just recognizing that full time work is not the full
amount of your time, that word is a misnomer. I
wish there were another word to describe thirty five to
forty hours of work a week. There isn't, but it
isn't the full amount of your time. And the more
you can keep repeating that to yourself, the more you
might be able to compartmentalize what's going on. Go ahead
(32:36):
and look for another job. Right, there are so many
other options beyond quitting your job and never working again.
Right looking for another job, people tell themselves a story like, oh, well,
there's not gonna be anything that pays as well and
uses my skills in this area.
Speaker 1 (32:53):
Do you know that?
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Like, do you absolutely know that? If so, fine, But
if you just haven't looked, then you don't know. It
could be that a company that's far away is willing
to hire you remotely, right, And then maybe they were
even paying more because they're located in an expensive area
and so their salary base is different, So you're gonna
earn more, have more autonomy, and be doing different work. Like,
you just don't know until you've really looked at what
(33:18):
is out there. People have never truly optimized on jobs.
It's always possible that you can find something that pays better,
you like more, and is more flexible.
Speaker 3 (33:28):
Right. I love when you bring that up about the optimization, Like,
what is the chance do you just happened to land
in the most unicorn perfect, you know, highest paying, highest
reward job that you could have landed in, and there's
nothing better? But the chances of that are like seriously
very unlikely. Yeah, yes, so just remember that your employer
(33:49):
doesn't want you to think about that, but you have to.
Speaker 2 (33:52):
Oh, you realize jobs all the time. It is totally fine,
So see what else is out there? And if there's
something you'd prefer to be doing. There's also the middle
ground of coming up, as Sarah say, ways to bring
in an income that don't involve working full time. Like
you can freelance. You can possibly even do your job
(34:12):
on an ad hoc basis for your current employer or
another one in the industry, so that you still have
some money coming in so you're not just living off
the interest income on your savings, because again, if you
retire early enough, it's gonna be a long time that
you're going to be trying to live off of this.
Speaker 1 (34:29):
And that's fine if you can do it. Great.
Speaker 2 (34:32):
Many people decide, even though after you know that they
do fire, that they want to do some sort of
work because work provides structure for life.
Speaker 1 (34:39):
It provides a sense of purpose.
Speaker 2 (34:41):
So even if you don't need the money, you might
find yourself looking for things that you'd like to do.
So if you have particular skills in area, why don't
you just start doing that. You can work twenty hours
a week doing it on the projects you choose and
still be building the nest egg allbe at a perhaps
slightly slower rate versus pulling it down.
Speaker 3 (34:59):
So yeah, all right, Well, love of the week. Do
we have a work themed one from you, Laura?
Speaker 1 (35:05):
My office, like I love my home office. It's really great.
Speaker 2 (35:08):
It has nice windows, nice wood shelves. I have a
fireplace in there, which is gonna be great as we
get into winter. I have my recording closet, which apparently
has very very expensive wallpaper on the wall.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
Like, who knew.
Speaker 2 (35:24):
I didn't put that wallpaper, and I never would have
paid for it, but it was here and I didn't
rip it out. Now I'm glad I didn't because I've
had people see me in my zoom room as I
call it, and comment on the wallpaper when they know
something about it. So that's exciting.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah. So it's really a great space. So I lucked
out on that. Love it well. Mine is the concept
of PTO.
Speaker 3 (35:44):
I mean, one might argue in the US we could
have even more of that, because, as I know, in
other countries is customary. But honestly, just the idea that
you're allocated in a lot of career situations with days
that are just for you to decide what to do
with them. You'll still get paid and still have your
benefits is really nice and we should all maximize it.
(36:04):
And enjoy it and look for situations where we can
get enough of it but keep us happy.
Speaker 1 (36:10):
Yeah sounds good.
Speaker 2 (36:11):
Well, this has been best of both worlds. We've been
talking about rekindling the flame at work. We will be
back next week with more on making work and life
fit together.
Speaker 1 (36:22):
Thanks for listening.
Speaker 3 (36:23):
You can find me Sarah at the shoebox dot com
or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram, and you can.
Speaker 4 (36:30):
Find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This has
been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join us
next time for more on making work and life work together.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.