March 4, 2025 • 36 mins
What comes up when you Google yourself, and are you happy the result? Sarah and Laura discuss ways of letting the world know about your expertise, from providing evidence of your competency, the value of persistence, being open to opportunity, and more!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome the best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing sort of at the end of winter,
(00:47):
beginning of spring, maybe not so much beginning of spring.
We'll see what it airs. But we're going to be
talking about how to make a name for yourself. So
the idea of personal branding, being known as an expert
on something is a useful career skill, probably something many
of us should be thinking about, but maybe something we
(01:09):
don't think about quite as much as we should. So, Sarah,
do you ever google yourself? And how much attention do
you pay to this to what comes up?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I do not google myself, really. I do get Google
alerts so that if my name is published in something
then Generally i'll get like an email from Google. It's like, oh,
Sarah Hart Hunger blah blah blah. Now sometimes it's like
a fake out. There's some shoe company or something I
say to you, and I'm like, oh, that's not me,
but that's not meazing. I seem to pick up the highlights,
(01:40):
which prevents me from googling myself, which is probably good.
I once looked up my name on Reddit and then
I was like and thankfully like didn't find anything bad,
and was like, I'm never doing that again.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Like I what, Sarah? What was Sarah so curious? I
haven't looked for myself on Reddit, so I'm very.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Able for you either. Okay, But then I realized how
dangerous that was because Reddit is such a snarky place
and there's nothing constructive that's going to happen if I
find a thread of people disgruntled with learning about planning.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
But no, all I found was like methods.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I found like, oh, I was looking for a planner
podcast and I found Beastly Plans. It was like it
was something like that. It was totally fine, but I
remember thinking like, this is not a good idea, and
I actually, I mean this is on the same vein.
I'm sort of like, once I write my book, I
don't think I want to see the reviews. Like I
could imagine asking my editor to give me like a
version of the feedback in a nice way, but like, yeah, sorry,
(02:37):
this veered into a different time.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, okay, I have searched for myself many times because
I'm just curious what order stuff comes up, right, Like
where are the places that I have written for or
been mentioned that are most prominent, Because you know, if
I'm searching for a guest, like I will search their
name and see what comes up, and I you know,
I'm curious, Like that is related to sort of with me,
(03:03):
like if somebody's searching for me.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
But it's not accurate because Google tailors it to like
the sites that you've been to. So when you Google yourself,
it knows your search unless you're going to like somebody
else's anonymous computer, the results you get are already tailored
to use.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Your your life search engines. Just to sort of see
that would help what is you know there? And I
mean it's probably worth doing just for anyone, I mean
for most people. If your name isn't particularly distinctive, it's
gonna be hard to see. But if it is something
like your one mention in a local newspaper where you
(03:39):
were complaining about this dog path that was put through
your neighborhood, or you know, like you probably don't want
that to be the first thing to come up, and
so it might be worth working a little bit on
like your LinkedIn profile to make sure that comes up
first or something. Just as a general idea, But what
making a name for yourself. It's not so much about
(04:01):
being a public facing thought leader, though of course it
can be, and would love for any of our listeners
who want to do that to become world famous experts
on whatever. But it's also about like just being known
at your organization as the person you want to find.
If you want to know X, right, like everyone says, oh,
well for sitting around the staff meeting on Thursday morning,
(04:23):
but you want to know X, everyone's looking at you, right,
Or if a certain situation comes up, everyone's looking at
you because they know that you're going to have the
great answer for it. And the reason for this, of
course is when people want you, you cannot easily be replaced.
It is as simple as that. I mean in this
world where AI can probably produce a lot of what
(04:46):
any of us do. I mean, if you want Laura
Vanderkam's writings on something, I mean, it could be written
by a Bye, but you still want Laura's.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Name on it.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You know what I'm saying. It's it's the way to
to make sure what you're doing is distinctive to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So one way to start thinking about this is to
figure out what you want to be an expert in
or what you should You already are an expert in
and a lot of people when I started working with
the op ed Project a few years ago, and I'm
a mentor editor for them, so I get people's op
eds and help them shape them into publishable sorts of things.
(05:27):
What I learned from them is a lot of people
find it really hard to call themselves an expert in something.
And now, if you want to write an op ed
on something, it really helps to be an expert on
something that you can tell the editor at that newspaper
or that magazine, like I am an expert in X
and here's a piece I wrote about it, And a
lot of people have trouble with that word an expert
because it feels like it's bragging. But again, it doesn't
(05:49):
need to be the world's biggest expert. It's just you know,
within your spheres, like within your professional spheres, within your
personal spheres, what are you known for and why do
people seek you out? So Sarah led to planning as
your expertise.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, first, I just want to comment, as you're speaking,
I'm like, there has got to be a big gender
divide here.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I just had to say expert on this because I
read an article on it once.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, and this is not global. I'm sure there are
men with imposter syndrome and women who feel they are
expert in everything. But very interesting what you were just
saying and what I was thinking about. So the planning thing,
I just love planners and started posting a lot, and
I noticed that was something that people responded to and
(06:36):
also something that I found myself naturally obsessed with to
the point where I think I became an expert. But
I actually don't even think I became an expert until I, like,
I don't know start. It's like circular, right, because the
more you delve into something, anymore you speak about something,
the more you learn about it, or the more you
learn what other people need about it, et cetera. So
(06:57):
I actually think the expert like I probably would have
argued with you about the planning expert like three years ago,
but now I feel like I could wear that pretty well.
I think it's also just a passion, like a legit
passion for me. I really believe that effective planning can
help us enjoy life more so why not spend time
doing it and learn to do it well? And I
think when you have a strong conviction like that, it's
easier to position yourself as an expert because you're like
(07:19):
I am helping people learn this that I have learned
over time, and then I also just feel like expert.
I wanted to make a note that being an expert
like very much depends on context because on a community level,
like when I'm at a birthday party or like out
in the world, no one asked me about planners, but
everybody asked me about their kids endocretin issues.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So you are a dual expert, Sarah. You actually have
real expertise in two very distinct areas.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Very distinct areas. Although I don't have like one thing
I focus on. I like to think I'm an expert
in like explaining things well in the clinic and have
an efficiently running office and make kids feel good during
the appointment. So if anything, I'm just like an jack
of all trees pediatric intergrenologists. But I was just gonna
say that I used to really resent my expertise in
this realm and like get annoyed when people would ask
(08:10):
me questions like oh, I'm not working, And somehow over
the years I have very much softened to that, and
I'm like, it's fine, Like, let me tell you what
I know, let me try to help you, let me
figure out if you're someone that one of my colleagues
should see. I try not to like see people personally
if I know them well enough, because then it's just weird.
But yeah, I've gotten to almost enjoy that expert status,
and that took a really long time.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, oh you should own it. I think it is
great when people can feel like they are confident in
their knowledge of something. And obviously some things that make that.
You know, if you have a medical degree in a
particular field, that does tend to show that you are
an expert in it. Other things, it's a little bit
less straightforward. But we can figure that out. So we're
(08:52):
going to take a quick ad break and we'll come
back and talk a little bit more about expertise.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay, we're back. So, Laura, you are a time management expert.
Can you talk a little bit about that path, how
it came to be and like maybe when you decided
that you had this expertise?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, so's nobody really grows up saying I want to
be a time management expert or something like that. So
it does, in fact need to develop over time, which
means there was a point where that was not what
I was doing. And I was trying to figure out
what is my area that I'm going to write about.
And I distinctly remember kind of in my late twenties
(09:41):
casting about in a bunch of different areas, Like I
wrote a bunch of different things. I was interested in
the intersection of work in life, and I wrote a
bunch of different articles related to that. And I had
written a bunch of profiles of different people, and I
kind of noticed that I was always interested did in
their schedules and how they were fitting in the various
(10:04):
things that they were doing. But it was not straightforward
at all. I was hoping to write a book. I
had put some stuff out in the world. I got
a meeting with an editor over at Portfolio, which is
part of Penguin Random House now, and they wanted to
talk with me about book ideas, and we kind of
worked through some of the stuff I had and came
(10:27):
up with one hundred and sixty eight hours Angle. And
so I wrote that book. And when you write a
book about something, you do have at least a way
of saying you're an expert. Like, look, I wrote this
commercially published book that you are seeing on the Today
Show that shows that perhaps I am a time management expert.
But that still wasn't one hundred percent clear. I mean,
(10:48):
longtime listeners know that. I then wrote a book on
personal finance called All the Money in the World, because
you know, it was casting around like what was going
to be the next thing? And then I wrote a
third thing called What the Most Successful People Do Before
Breakfast did pretty well, and so then that sort of
cemented it as the time management area, like that that
was what I was going to be talking about. But
I am interested in it, like you have to be
(11:11):
interested in it. You have to want to keep learning
more and I think it helps to have at least
somewhat of a broad enough area that you can take
different angles into it, Like you could write about anyone
in the world and write about their schedule. Yeah, So
I think there's something to be said for that.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's why there's more than one book in your collections.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
So many many Laura Vandercamp books that I keep trying
to come up with with different things. And I think
you have to be passionate about it, because the thing is,
you're going to have to keep cameering away at building
this expertise for a long time, and if it's kind
of a thing that you don't necessarily always want to do, like, oh,
I know I need to send this newsletter each week
(11:52):
to show that I'm an expert, but I don't want to, Like,
it's going to be hard to keep.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That up totally. And I think people can kind of
sense the and the sincerity, Like, Okay, is this person
like writing about the new pointers because they felt they
like had to, or because they're like really excited because
they saw the spring launch and they can compare it
to the other launches and they're excited to share it
with you. So like I think it comes off somehow.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, So if you're trying to figure this out, I mean,
look at the things that people always come to you for, right,
If there's something that people are always asking you about,
that's a good hint at what they see as you
as being good at within your group, your community, the
things you always find yourself pursuing. Like, if you have
free time, what are the things you sort of look into,
(12:37):
what it's the kind of work you like to do? First,
ask other people what they think they see you as
uniquely good at, because sometimes it's harder for us to
see it for ourselves and to sort of keep casting about,
Like what makes you feel energized when you think about
spending more time learning about it and talking about it
(12:57):
and helping people with this, that's a good sign.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, I like that. What do people always come up
and ask you about? And it may not be what
you think you know, Like, maybe you're a lawyer, but
everyone's asking you about like XYZ template, or maybe it's
just some very specific niche within your expertise. That's a
sign like that's valuable, so.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, or maybe it's something completely outside of that. I mean,
you're a lawyer and people are asking you about your
travel hacks. So, I mean, who knows. I'm not saying
you're going to switch careers, but it's something that you
might think about for a future pivot or for a
side gig, or something you might want to do when
you maybe scale down the main career at some point
and scale up other things. So things to think about now.
(13:39):
Of course, just because you call yourself an expert in
something doesn't mean the world's gonna believe it. So how
do we provide evidence of our expertise for the world. So,
people who've read Dori Clark's book, she has an excellent
book called stand Out, which is about how to find
your breakthrough idea and to following around it. So that's
(14:01):
basically how to become a thought leader. Right, you need
to thought and then you need to be a leader
about that thought that people are willing to follow you.
And she talks about finding social proof, like how can
you show social proof that you are an expert in
this topic? So, Sarah, when you recently sold a book
on your planning methods, what do you think was helpful
(14:23):
with showing that you were an expert on this topic?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, so definitely my body of work my podcast. I
think that's what led an editor to be interested in
my work to begin with, Like, oh, this person knows
what she's talking about. And also there's two hundred and
fifty episodes, you know, and she didn't start it yesterday.
There's like a breath here and an experience. The fact
that other people expressed interest really really helps, and if
(14:46):
that can be done in some sort of a public way,
that can help. Now that was not done purposefully, but
I had like one blog post where I wrote about
how many productivity authors were men and how I would
love to be part of this, and I think I
got like a hundred people that were like, yes, do it,
I want this and being able to share that. I
don't know if that was helpful, but I certainly included
it in my pitch. I definitely think also this is
(15:09):
a little different, but like having some kind of like
niche or perspective that's a little bit something just sets
you out in the market, like if there are a
million people talking about the same thing, like being able
to say, like, what makes you different? For me, some
of that was like having a partly having a non
flexible traditional job and kind of coming at it from
that perspective, plus the female perspective I think was helpful,
(15:32):
and then finally just the cred of having successfully built
a podcast audience, a newsletter audience, a consistent blog audience
over many, many years. Like they can tell like there
are people who are interested, and also I'm not the
kind of person who's going to be like, oh, I'll
promote the book and then like disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, if you've done two hundred and fifty podcasts, it
seems like you could probably do one hundred more, right,
you know, it's like that's not a huge leap of
faith to assume that you would caninue to promote the topic. Yeah,
various things can count as social proof. I mean some
of the more straightforward obvious ones, like a degree in
something or a license in something, so you know, if
(16:11):
you want to be sharing medical stuff as an expertise,
having some sort of medical credential is generally helpful. Whether
you are a nurse or a doctor or pharmacist or
something in that field that is going to show that
you have medical credentials there, or if it is a
field where there is a licensure process, Like I know,
(16:32):
I would take advice on various psychological things more seriously
from someone who is a licensed therapist. Right, that's just
something that shows proof. Now, of course, there's many things
in life that have nothing to do with degrees. I
do not have a degree in time management. I don't
even know if there is such a thing. I've sometimes
been asked about that.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm like, yeah, no, maybe you can start time management university.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Time management university, the private, privately independently run like for
profit universe. Sounds like such a snake oil sort of
thing tm TM you time management University. Yeah, that will
not be happening. But that said, you can also do
different things. So any sort of intellectual property you have
(17:18):
created can show evidence that you are an expert in something.
So obviously, writing a book about a topic is a
way to show that you are an expert in it.
But a book may kind of be a high first
barrier to do something, So why don't you start with
something else, Like you could write a handful of white
papers on a topic that's you're an expert in in
(17:38):
your particular profession and see if you can publish those summer,
whether that's internally for your own organization, if there's some
sort of internal website for your company that you could
put those up and share around, or maybe more broadly,
if there's an industry publication. You can also start your
own things too, like a blog related to your or
(18:00):
topic of expertise. If it's something that's more public facing,
that's probably something you want to do, or start a newsletter.
These things are far easier to do now than they
were in the past. Twenty five thirty years ago. If
you wanted to be an expert and be known for
your writing on a topic, you kind of had to
go through existing publications, like you had to get an
(18:21):
article about you writing about this topic, or you being
interviewed as an expert on a topic in say Time
magazine or something like that. And now you can just
put out your newsletter to the world and if people
find it interesting, you can become an expert just because
people are reading you and you didn't have to go
through any sort of gatekeeper. And obviously there's downsides.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
I mean, how many books are like, oh it all
started when my instapost went viral, and like they just
hit a nerve and now they're an expert. It's kind
of interesting to see that sometimes, but hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
But it could work happens, yeah, I mean, and sometimes
gatekeepers are good because you know, people put newsletters on
stupid things out there and like, yeah, that's not really expertise,
that's just something you made up. But when you can
build up a good following, it's usually because there's at
least something there. So that's something you might want to
consider doing as well. And starting that now, other organizations
(19:20):
and like existing places can give you social proof. We've
certainly seen this with some of our guests, like somebody
being like I'm the well with Laura may Martin, like
I'm the time management expert for Google. It's like, okay, well,
Google's a big organization, so therefore you have the social
proof of a big organization saying you were worth paying
for this. So if you've spoken places, worked places that
(19:42):
can be helpful, you can collect testimonials. I would suggest
people start doing this if there are people you've worked
with who just are willing to do this to give
a short few sentences about why you are so awesome
to work with or something you've done that was so amazing.
Those can be helpful for the future too.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Totally and I think people don't do it enough. Honestly,
I don't think i'd ever say note of writing a
testimonial for something that I had a positive experience about
and then collecting them can be incredibly valuable. So I say,
reach out and do that more. And I'm talking partly
to myself.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, well, and also collecting numbers. I mean, numbers can
be abused, but they at least appear to be objective.
So anything time you can quantify something you've done, that's
very easy thing for someone to quote to say that
you're an expert, Like so, Sarah, you've seen this, So
I mean with various things.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Oh definitely. I mean I had to include that in
my book proposal too, like number of people that have
gone through my courses, number of people on my newsletter,
all that kind of stuff. In the medical world, speaking
of expertise, surgeons track how many cases they do. And
I want to give you permission, especially if you were
a family member is having surgery and it's something like
a little unusual, like not like an epidectomy, but something
(20:52):
like more specific, you can feel free to ask your
surgeon how many of these have you done? Because most
of them will be proud to give you a good
number that will make you feel better. And if they're
like two, then you can maybe find out if okay,
well someone going to be assisting you or like, think
about whether that's what you want.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, you may not want to be the first, if
at all possible, and given that, you know, in humanity
generally people aren't the first. I mean we all have
some similarities. Finding somebody who's done something a few more
times might be worth seeking out. So yeah, you can
try to put numbers one like have you saved an
organization money by doing X? That tends to be a
(21:33):
number of people can do? Or how many something your
direct reports have done? Moving any sort of metric. Anything
you can come up with is going to be helpful.
All Right, we're going to take one more quick ad
break and then we'll be back with more on making
a name for yourself. Well, we are back talking about
(22:04):
how to make a name for yourself being known as
an expert on some topic, maybe not the world's foremost
expert on something, but even just within your organization, being
the thing that people always seek you out, that there's
a reason people come to you for something, and having
that thing can be very valuable from a career perspective,
(22:24):
because it's just so much harder to replace someone who
everyone is seeking out for a particular valuable bit of knowledge.
As you're building up your expertise in something, it really
does help to stick with it for at least a
little while. We see and joke all the time of
people who have started a podcast and then they do
(22:44):
like two episodes and I guess they run out of ideas,
So I guess maybe that wasn't something that they really
wanted to pursue long term. But when you can, then
you have time become the secret ingredient that sort of
builds up the sense like, oh, yeah, I've been doing
this for three years, That in and of itself provides
evidence of expertise that being a fly by night kind
(23:04):
of person doesn't. So, Sarah, you've stuck with blogging for
twenty years, I mean podcasting for many What has made
you stick with it in these cases?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
What has made me enable myself to use time as
a secret ingredient? By the way, whenever I think about
the number of years, all I can think about, and
I know we'd well on the negative as humans, is like,
why did I start my newsletter in like twenty twenty
three or something.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, as opposed to like twenty twelve. Yes, okay, two
thousand and five I would have.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, I feel like cashed out by now. I don't
even know. Well, I don't know, maybe not, but like
crazy anyway, So what made me stick with it?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It's super super fun, which is why you want to
And I enjoy writing, I enjoy creating. I found it
to be a strength. I found it to be something
that I'm efficient with doing, which makes it doable. And
I love kind of like the social stuff that's come
out of it, and just the act of sharing and
the act of expressing myself in that way. And I
think that's important to say, because if you don't find
(24:04):
doing it at least to be like rewarding and generally
I don't know, like inherently satisfying, then it's as hard
because I don't want to be like, oh, work has
to be your passion, you know. But at the same time,
you're not gonna want to chug away at something for
twenty years if it's miserable.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, you have to find that Venn diagram overlap between
stuff the world finds useful and stuff you personally enjoy
and kind of find the sweet spot between where those overlap.
And I can always tell if people aren't really into it.
I mean, I've given the advice all over the place
that you should start a blog or start a newsletter
or something on this topic if you want to be
known as an expert. And then I'll see the person
(24:42):
like do it once a week at the exact same
time every time, Like they're doing one blog post week
at the exact same time. It's because they put it
on their to do list that they know they're supposed
to do it, but they're not that excited about it.
Whereas when people get into blogging, they start doing it
like every day they you know, are it happen almost
it like sometimes random times because they had a little
(25:02):
bit of free time and they're like, oh, yeah, well
I'll do a blog post if people want to check
out Optimistic Musings by the blogger Elizabeth Frost. She started
blogging a few years ago and she thought she might
give it a whirl, and she now posts daily and
has a ton of fun with it, and it gets
a lot of comments every day. And I think it's
because she really, really enjoyed it, and so you do
(25:23):
want to make sure you are doing something that brings
happiness if you're going to spend your precious time on
earth doing.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It totally otherwise find something else.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
But you also don't want to quit prematurely either, because
there's also going to be some rough moments. So I
would say, like, if you're saying of starting a podcast,
make yourself a list of like twenty topics you could
do an episode on right, because then you will be
able to keep going. And if you can't generate a
list of twenty topics, you probably shouldn't start it because
you won't stick with it. Like they're not going to
magically come to you. But if you do, you don't
(25:55):
have to do it forever. Like you can decide I'm
going to try this out, like I'm going to start
a new letter on this topic. I am going to
commit to doing two per week for a year, and
we will see what comes of it. Now, I'm not
saying that this is going to provide such amazing, wonderful
opportunities that you're going to be able to quit your
job and retire forever if that's what you are looking for,
But something will come out of it, like you cannot
(26:16):
put one hundred things on a topic out into the
universe to some number of people without something happening, right,
Like this is just an odds matter at this point.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, I think you're right. I actually just heard I
want a reference. There was a podcast episode by Laura Tremaine,
who does the podcast Ten Things to Tell You, and
it's about podcasting specifically, and like advice for starting a podcast.
She couched it as like what I wish I knew
when I started mine, and it's like exactly what you
just said. But she recommended a minimum of three months,
(26:48):
which I think is a nice window of time because
that's enough time for you to figure out, Okay, is
there a learning curve here? Do I enjoy this? Do
I have enough to talk about? Do I have the
right topic? But it's not so long that you're committing
yourself to forever. So pick some kind of reasonable timeframe.
Maybe it's three months, maybe it's slightly different than that,
and give it a try if that's something you're interested
(27:09):
in doing it, And again, does not have to be
a podcast, could be anything.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, and don't think of it being one off and
done like you want to give yourself enough runway that
something could happen. So it's not that you're going to
write one white paper on this topic and then expect
everything to come from that. But it could be that
something comes out of that one white paper that you
have another one you're gonna write, and if you commit
to doing let's say six over the course of the
year for this industry publication, like something's gonna come of
(27:35):
that too. Like it's impossible to put like that much
out there and not have something come back, Which leads
us to our last part of making a name for
yourself is being open to opportunity, Like if cool things
do come to you, you want to maybe pursue them, Like,
be open to doing that. I mean, Sarah, I know
(27:56):
you do try to say yes to stuff like this.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I definitely say yes more than
I say no. I mean that's how the book is.
I've always wanted to do it, but it was more
about like kind of like someone was like, hey, send
me this, and I was like, you know what, Yes,
let me try. I know I might fail, but it's
certainly worth a try. Same with speaking engagement I have
coming up that I think is going to be really fun.
(28:20):
It was a little outside of what I've done before,
and someone was like, just submit an application, and I did,
and you know, there was some imposter syndrome like do
I belong here, Am I an expert, et cetera. But
I just got past it and now I'm like super
excited to go. So I do think it's not always
a yes. Sometimes you also have a gut feeling that
it should be a no, And I think you should
(28:41):
listen to that there, But at the same time, make
sure it's not your self doubt that's causing the note.
It has to be more like no, this is a key,
I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, I'm doing something a little email newsletter side gig
right now on something I'm calling the Yes Quest. So
I put out to my newsletter list did people want
to sign up for this yes Quest? And I've just
been sending like two emails a week encouraging people to
say yes to some random things. Now, I'm not talking
about yes to something that seems burdensome or like I
(29:11):
really don't want to do it. But if it's a
yes to something that you're kind of talking yourself out of, right, like, well,
I guess I could go out to dinner with those
people who sound fascinating, But you know what if I'm
home late to like, what if that means that I'm
not doing the laundry that night. I you know, it's
just like you're talking yourself out of it. That's often
(29:32):
a sign that you do want to do it, and
then you're just trying to be practical. So I would
encourage people to say yes to things like that, because
you never know where it's going to lead. You know,
it's the things you're talking yourself into that you probably
want to say no to. If you're sitting there saying, well,
it's probably going to be good for my career and
maybe if I want to live abroad long term, this
(29:52):
is something I should experiment. Just like no, if you're
talking yourself into it, you don't want to do it.
Those are not the kinds of yeses we really want
to do. It's the ones where you're t fucking yourself
out of So try things out, Reserve some time for
things that might come up. If your schedule is absolutely packed,
you won't be willing to take on something new. If
people are like, oh, could you give a talk on
this topic that you find fascinating to this group that
(30:14):
could be interesting, but you're like, oh, but I'm so
pressed with these deadlines that work, there's no way I
can do that. That's where you don't get those opportunities.
So you want to make sure you have some space,
and you can also create communities of people to sort
of help bring opportunities to you. I mean, Sarah, I
know you've connected with other people in various podcasting and
(30:38):
blogging worlds.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Oh my gosh, and I like it when it comes
kind of organically. I mean sometimes it's more orchestrated like
our Patriot or things like that which I've met amazing
people through, or best laid plans a live and then
other times it's just like someone emails and you meet
up and you just say yes, and you know, you
see where the connection leads.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. So if there's other people who seem to be
experts in this topic that you are aiming to be
experts in, see if you can collaborate on something, or
see if you can meet up and have some sort
of check in every quarter or something like that. It's
a way to get yourself part of that community. And
when you are part of a community of experts, you
become seen more as an expert yourself just by virtue
of being associated with other people who are also experts
(31:17):
in something. Yes, that is true, all right, So lots
of different ideas on way to make a name for yourself.
Hopefully some of this has been useful even if you
are not planning on starting a blogger podcast, but you
just want to be known as the expert on a
particular area in your profession. Maybe some things that might
be helpful as you plan to do that. So today's
(31:38):
question Sarah, As we are coming up for people's spring breaks,
this listener writes in, it's not really in the cards
to go somewhere cool this year for spring break. I'll
probably be working for most of it. How can I
make sure this is still a somewhat fun time for
the kids and for me.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, so definitely have been that boat before, especially because
my kids spring breaks don't actually line up very well
right now, so it's not our peak traveling time. So
I definitely think camps can be helpful, especially if you
have well, I mean, it sounds like you're working, so
you may need some kind of childcare anyway, and looking
for specialty camps like maybe something a little bit different,
(32:19):
if different sports venues or art places or something. A
lot of them are opportunistic these days, and they're smart.
They offer like camps during breaks for you to sign
up and get childcare there, so considering that can make
it more fun for the kids, and maybe doing it
with a friend would be even better. Treating your area
like a tourist and doing like a real staycation, like
maybe everybody writes down ideas and then you pull everything
(32:41):
together and let the kids each pick one out. Even
movies can be a nice relaxing thing to do during
a staycation, just because we don't have time to do
that kind of a thing during the day otherwise. And
then I definitely think banding with others can be helpful.
You're probably not the only one staying home, so finding
out if anybody else wants to do a kid swap
or a big group outing could add some fun to
(33:03):
your days.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, I mean, definitely think about the camp options. I've
seen ones to advertise from everything from like a climbing
gym to karate to art studios. There's definitely some stuff
out there if you live in a reasonably sized community.
But if your kids are even slightly older but not
old enough to sort of you know, you don't want
to just have them fending for themselves for the entire week.
(33:25):
If you have an occasional sitter who might have some availability,
you could have that person take them somewhere for a
day or two, right like if the weather is nicer
for spring break. I mean, they could go to an
amusement park if one happens to be open, or go
to like a further away trampoline park or something like
(33:45):
that for several hours and make a day trip of it.
I think you could also definitely have the mindset of
one big adventure, one little adventure. You could go somewhere
over the weekends on either side of spring break. It
could be an overnight trip, it doesn't have to be.
You could do a day trip on say both of
those saturdays, and that would still be something memorable. And
then maybe two evenings during the week you all do
(34:08):
something that you wouldn't normally do. I mean, you go
to an indoor pool at night, or you go out
to how I'll have dinner at food trucks that are
part somewhere. I mean, you could come up with something
that would be adventurous and would make the time memorable,
because that's really what you're getting at with traveling somewhere
over spring break too, is like making memories. So what
can you do to make memories even if the memories
(34:30):
are where you are and you are working forty hours
that week?
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I love it? All right, love of the week?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
All right? Well, I would suggest that people do check
out Dori Clark's books on personal branding. Her books stand
Out definitely has a lot of great information on that
and I enjoyed reading it, So that could be my
love of the week.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Well, I'm going to go with one that I didn't
realize was so controversial.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Thin mints that are from the freezer? What do you
have against I don't have any.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Well, I was always, as a Girl Scout sort of
mystified why thin mints were the most popular. I don't know,
I feel like it's not really that exciting of a cookie,
and yet they would always be like thirty to forty
percent of the sales. Right. I was a pretty good
Girl Scouts cookie salesperson, so we're talking to some serious
volume here, and those were always a higher percentage than
(35:25):
I would give them based on how they taste, and
then I found out people are putting them in the freezer,
and I just don't understand, Like what it tastes like
a cold thin min? Like what does that do for you?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
It gets the chocolate shell to have like a crispier texture,
and it's just amazing. Room temperature thin min's don't quite
do it for me, but like freezer thin min's amazing.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Love them, okay, all right, Well to each her own.
I'm not saying they're bad. I'm not saying they would
be my love of the week though. All right, well,
good thing we each get th We get our own
love of the week.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
More thin mian's for me, all right, more thinmans for you?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
We've been talking about how to make a name for yourself.
We will be back next week with more on making
work and life fit together.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah Hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long term career goals.
We want you to get the most out of life.
Welcome the best of both worlds. This is Laura. This
episode is airing sort of at the end of winter,
(00:47):
beginning of spring, maybe not so much beginning of spring.
We'll see what it airs. But we're going to be
talking about how to make a name for yourself. So
the idea of personal branding, being known as an expert
on something is a useful career skill, probably something many
of us should be thinking about, but maybe something we
(01:09):
don't think about quite as much as we should. So, Sarah,
do you ever google yourself? And how much attention do
you pay to this to what comes up?
Speaker 2 (01:19):
I do not google myself, really. I do get Google
alerts so that if my name is published in something
then Generally i'll get like an email from Google. It's like, oh,
Sarah Hart Hunger blah blah blah. Now sometimes it's like
a fake out. There's some shoe company or something I
say to you, and I'm like, oh, that's not me,
but that's not meazing. I seem to pick up the highlights,
(01:40):
which prevents me from googling myself, which is probably good.
I once looked up my name on Reddit and then
I was like and thankfully like didn't find anything bad,
and was like, I'm never doing that again.
Speaker 1 (01:51):
Like I what, Sarah? What was Sarah so curious? I
haven't looked for myself on Reddit, so I'm very.
Speaker 2 (01:57):
Able for you either. Okay, But then I realized how
dangerous that was because Reddit is such a snarky place
and there's nothing constructive that's going to happen if I
find a thread of people disgruntled with learning about planning.
Speaker 1 (02:11):
But no, all I found was like methods.
Speaker 2 (02:13):
I found like, oh, I was looking for a planner
podcast and I found Beastly Plans. It was like it
was something like that. It was totally fine, but I
remember thinking like, this is not a good idea, and
I actually, I mean this is on the same vein.
I'm sort of like, once I write my book, I
don't think I want to see the reviews. Like I
could imagine asking my editor to give me like a
version of the feedback in a nice way, but like, yeah, sorry,
(02:37):
this veered into a different time.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
Well, okay, I have searched for myself many times because
I'm just curious what order stuff comes up, right, Like
where are the places that I have written for or
been mentioned that are most prominent, Because you know, if
I'm searching for a guest, like I will search their
name and see what comes up, and I you know,
I'm curious, Like that is related to sort of with me,
(03:03):
like if somebody's searching for me.
Speaker 2 (03:04):
But it's not accurate because Google tailors it to like
the sites that you've been to. So when you Google yourself,
it knows your search unless you're going to like somebody
else's anonymous computer, the results you get are already tailored
to use.
Speaker 1 (03:15):
Your your life search engines. Just to sort of see
that would help what is you know there? And I
mean it's probably worth doing just for anyone, I mean
for most people. If your name isn't particularly distinctive, it's
gonna be hard to see. But if it is something
like your one mention in a local newspaper where you
(03:39):
were complaining about this dog path that was put through
your neighborhood, or you know, like you probably don't want
that to be the first thing to come up, and
so it might be worth working a little bit on
like your LinkedIn profile to make sure that comes up
first or something. Just as a general idea, But what
making a name for yourself. It's not so much about
(04:01):
being a public facing thought leader, though of course it
can be, and would love for any of our listeners
who want to do that to become world famous experts
on whatever. But it's also about like just being known
at your organization as the person you want to find.
If you want to know X, right, like everyone says, oh,
well for sitting around the staff meeting on Thursday morning,
(04:23):
but you want to know X, everyone's looking at you, right,
Or if a certain situation comes up, everyone's looking at
you because they know that you're going to have the
great answer for it. And the reason for this, of
course is when people want you, you cannot easily be replaced.
It is as simple as that. I mean in this
world where AI can probably produce a lot of what
(04:46):
any of us do. I mean, if you want Laura
Vanderkam's writings on something, I mean, it could be written
by a Bye, but you still want Laura's.
Speaker 2 (04:55):
Name on it.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
You know what I'm saying. It's it's the way to
to make sure what you're doing is distinctive to you. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
No, that makes sense.
Speaker 1 (05:05):
So one way to start thinking about this is to
figure out what you want to be an expert in
or what you should You already are an expert in
and a lot of people when I started working with
the op ed Project a few years ago, and I'm
a mentor editor for them, so I get people's op
eds and help them shape them into publishable sorts of things.
(05:27):
What I learned from them is a lot of people
find it really hard to call themselves an expert in something.
And now, if you want to write an op ed
on something, it really helps to be an expert on
something that you can tell the editor at that newspaper
or that magazine, like I am an expert in X
and here's a piece I wrote about it, And a
lot of people have trouble with that word an expert
because it feels like it's bragging. But again, it doesn't
(05:49):
need to be the world's biggest expert. It's just you know,
within your spheres, like within your professional spheres, within your
personal spheres, what are you known for and why do
people seek you out? So Sarah led to planning as
your expertise.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
Well, first, I just want to comment, as you're speaking,
I'm like, there has got to be a big gender
divide here.
Speaker 1 (06:10):
I just had to say expert on this because I
read an article on it once.
Speaker 2 (06:16):
Yeah, and this is not global. I'm sure there are
men with imposter syndrome and women who feel they are
expert in everything. But very interesting what you were just
saying and what I was thinking about. So the planning thing,
I just love planners and started posting a lot, and
I noticed that was something that people responded to and
(06:36):
also something that I found myself naturally obsessed with to
the point where I think I became an expert. But
I actually don't even think I became an expert until I, like,
I don't know start. It's like circular, right, because the
more you delve into something, anymore you speak about something,
the more you learn about it, or the more you
learn what other people need about it, et cetera. So
(06:57):
I actually think the expert like I probably would have
argued with you about the planning expert like three years ago,
but now I feel like I could wear that pretty well.
I think it's also just a passion, like a legit
passion for me. I really believe that effective planning can
help us enjoy life more so why not spend time
doing it and learn to do it well? And I
think when you have a strong conviction like that, it's
easier to position yourself as an expert because you're like
(07:19):
I am helping people learn this that I have learned
over time, and then I also just feel like expert.
I wanted to make a note that being an expert
like very much depends on context because on a community level,
like when I'm at a birthday party or like out
in the world, no one asked me about planners, but
everybody asked me about their kids endocretin issues.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
So you are a dual expert, Sarah. You actually have
real expertise in two very distinct areas.
Speaker 2 (07:49):
Very distinct areas. Although I don't have like one thing
I focus on. I like to think I'm an expert
in like explaining things well in the clinic and have
an efficiently running office and make kids feel good during
the appointment. So if anything, I'm just like an jack
of all trees pediatric intergrenologists. But I was just gonna
say that I used to really resent my expertise in
this realm and like get annoyed when people would ask
(08:10):
me questions like oh, I'm not working, And somehow over
the years I have very much softened to that, and
I'm like, it's fine, Like, let me tell you what
I know, let me try to help you, let me
figure out if you're someone that one of my colleagues
should see. I try not to like see people personally
if I know them well enough, because then it's just weird.
But yeah, I've gotten to almost enjoy that expert status,
and that took a really long time.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
Yeah, oh you should own it. I think it is
great when people can feel like they are confident in
their knowledge of something. And obviously some things that make that.
You know, if you have a medical degree in a
particular field, that does tend to show that you are
an expert in it. Other things, it's a little bit
less straightforward. But we can figure that out. So we're
(08:52):
going to take a quick ad break and we'll come
back and talk a little bit more about expertise.
Speaker 2 (09:09):
Okay, we're back. So, Laura, you are a time management expert.
Can you talk a little bit about that path, how
it came to be and like maybe when you decided
that you had this expertise?
Speaker 1 (09:20):
Yeah, so's nobody really grows up saying I want to
be a time management expert or something like that. So
it does, in fact need to develop over time, which
means there was a point where that was not what
I was doing. And I was trying to figure out
what is my area that I'm going to write about.
And I distinctly remember kind of in my late twenties
(09:41):
casting about in a bunch of different areas, Like I
wrote a bunch of different things. I was interested in
the intersection of work in life, and I wrote a
bunch of different articles related to that. And I had
written a bunch of profiles of different people, and I
kind of noticed that I was always interested did in
their schedules and how they were fitting in the various
(10:04):
things that they were doing. But it was not straightforward
at all. I was hoping to write a book. I
had put some stuff out in the world. I got
a meeting with an editor over at Portfolio, which is
part of Penguin Random House now, and they wanted to
talk with me about book ideas, and we kind of
worked through some of the stuff I had and came
(10:27):
up with one hundred and sixty eight hours Angle. And
so I wrote that book. And when you write a
book about something, you do have at least a way
of saying you're an expert. Like, look, I wrote this
commercially published book that you are seeing on the Today
Show that shows that perhaps I am a time management expert.
But that still wasn't one hundred percent clear. I mean,
(10:48):
longtime listeners know that. I then wrote a book on
personal finance called All the Money in the World, because
you know, it was casting around like what was going
to be the next thing? And then I wrote a
third thing called What the Most Successful People Do Before
Breakfast did pretty well, and so then that sort of
cemented it as the time management area, like that that
was what I was going to be talking about. But
I am interested in it, like you have to be
(11:11):
interested in it. You have to want to keep learning
more and I think it helps to have at least
somewhat of a broad enough area that you can take
different angles into it, Like you could write about anyone
in the world and write about their schedule. Yeah, So
I think there's something to be said for that.
Speaker 2 (11:28):
That's why there's more than one book in your collections.
Speaker 1 (11:31):
So many many Laura Vandercamp books that I keep trying
to come up with with different things. And I think
you have to be passionate about it, because the thing is,
you're going to have to keep cameering away at building
this expertise for a long time, and if it's kind
of a thing that you don't necessarily always want to do, like, oh,
I know I need to send this newsletter each week
(11:52):
to show that I'm an expert, but I don't want to, Like,
it's going to be hard to keep.
Speaker 2 (11:56):
That up totally. And I think people can kind of
sense the and the sincerity, Like, Okay, is this person
like writing about the new pointers because they felt they
like had to, or because they're like really excited because
they saw the spring launch and they can compare it
to the other launches and they're excited to share it
with you. So like I think it comes off somehow.
Speaker 1 (12:16):
Yeah, So if you're trying to figure this out, I mean,
look at the things that people always come to you for, right,
If there's something that people are always asking you about,
that's a good hint at what they see as you
as being good at within your group, your community, the
things you always find yourself pursuing. Like, if you have
free time, what are the things you sort of look into,
(12:37):
what it's the kind of work you like to do? First,
ask other people what they think they see you as
uniquely good at, because sometimes it's harder for us to
see it for ourselves and to sort of keep casting about,
Like what makes you feel energized when you think about
spending more time learning about it and talking about it
(12:57):
and helping people with this, that's a good sign.
Speaker 2 (13:01):
Yeah, I like that. What do people always come up
and ask you about? And it may not be what
you think you know, Like, maybe you're a lawyer, but
everyone's asking you about like XYZ template, or maybe it's
just some very specific niche within your expertise. That's a
sign like that's valuable, so.
Speaker 1 (13:17):
Yeah, or maybe it's something completely outside of that. I mean,
you're a lawyer and people are asking you about your
travel hacks. So, I mean, who knows. I'm not saying
you're going to switch careers, but it's something that you
might think about for a future pivot or for a
side gig, or something you might want to do when
you maybe scale down the main career at some point
and scale up other things. So things to think about now.
(13:39):
Of course, just because you call yourself an expert in
something doesn't mean the world's gonna believe it. So how
do we provide evidence of our expertise for the world. So,
people who've read Dori Clark's book, she has an excellent
book called stand Out, which is about how to find
your breakthrough idea and to following around it. So that's
(14:01):
basically how to become a thought leader. Right, you need
to thought and then you need to be a leader
about that thought that people are willing to follow you.
And she talks about finding social proof, like how can
you show social proof that you are an expert in
this topic? So, Sarah, when you recently sold a book
on your planning methods, what do you think was helpful
(14:23):
with showing that you were an expert on this topic?
Speaker 2 (14:26):
Yeah, so definitely my body of work my podcast. I
think that's what led an editor to be interested in
my work to begin with, Like, oh, this person knows
what she's talking about. And also there's two hundred and
fifty episodes, you know, and she didn't start it yesterday.
There's like a breath here and an experience. The fact
that other people expressed interest really really helps, and if
(14:46):
that can be done in some sort of a public way,
that can help. Now that was not done purposefully, but
I had like one blog post where I wrote about
how many productivity authors were men and how I would
love to be part of this, and I think I
got like a hundred people that were like, yes, do it,
I want this and being able to share that. I
don't know if that was helpful, but I certainly included
it in my pitch. I definitely think also this is
(15:09):
a little different, but like having some kind of like
niche or perspective that's a little bit something just sets
you out in the market, like if there are a
million people talking about the same thing, like being able
to say, like, what makes you different? For me, some
of that was like having a partly having a non
flexible traditional job and kind of coming at it from
that perspective, plus the female perspective I think was helpful,
(15:32):
and then finally just the cred of having successfully built
a podcast audience, a newsletter audience, a consistent blog audience
over many, many years. Like they can tell like there
are people who are interested, and also I'm not the
kind of person who's going to be like, oh, I'll
promote the book and then like disappear.
Speaker 1 (15:50):
Yeah, if you've done two hundred and fifty podcasts, it
seems like you could probably do one hundred more, right,
you know, it's like that's not a huge leap of
faith to assume that you would caninue to promote the topic. Yeah,
various things can count as social proof. I mean some
of the more straightforward obvious ones, like a degree in
something or a license in something, so you know, if
(16:11):
you want to be sharing medical stuff as an expertise,
having some sort of medical credential is generally helpful. Whether
you are a nurse or a doctor or pharmacist or
something in that field that is going to show that
you have medical credentials there, or if it is a
field where there is a licensure process, Like I know,
(16:32):
I would take advice on various psychological things more seriously
from someone who is a licensed therapist. Right, that's just
something that shows proof. Now, of course, there's many things
in life that have nothing to do with degrees. I
do not have a degree in time management. I don't
even know if there is such a thing. I've sometimes
been asked about that.
Speaker 2 (16:52):
I'm like, yeah, no, maybe you can start time management university.
Speaker 1 (16:56):
Time management university, the private, privately independently run like for
profit universe. Sounds like such a snake oil sort of
thing tm TM you time management University. Yeah, that will
not be happening. But that said, you can also do
different things. So any sort of intellectual property you have
(17:18):
created can show evidence that you are an expert in something.
So obviously, writing a book about a topic is a
way to show that you are an expert in it.
But a book may kind of be a high first
barrier to do something, So why don't you start with
something else, Like you could write a handful of white
papers on a topic that's you're an expert in in
(17:38):
your particular profession and see if you can publish those summer,
whether that's internally for your own organization, if there's some
sort of internal website for your company that you could
put those up and share around, or maybe more broadly,
if there's an industry publication. You can also start your
own things too, like a blog related to your or
(18:00):
topic of expertise. If it's something that's more public facing,
that's probably something you want to do, or start a newsletter.
These things are far easier to do now than they
were in the past. Twenty five thirty years ago. If
you wanted to be an expert and be known for
your writing on a topic, you kind of had to
go through existing publications, like you had to get an
(18:21):
article about you writing about this topic, or you being
interviewed as an expert on a topic in say Time
magazine or something like that. And now you can just
put out your newsletter to the world and if people
find it interesting, you can become an expert just because
people are reading you and you didn't have to go
through any sort of gatekeeper. And obviously there's downsides.
Speaker 2 (18:43):
Which can be a good thing and a bad thing.
I mean, how many books are like, oh it all
started when my instapost went viral, and like they just
hit a nerve and now they're an expert. It's kind
of interesting to see that sometimes, but hey, yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:56):
But it could work happens, yeah, I mean, and sometimes
gatekeepers are good because you know, people put newsletters on
stupid things out there and like, yeah, that's not really expertise,
that's just something you made up. But when you can
build up a good following, it's usually because there's at
least something there. So that's something you might want to
consider doing as well. And starting that now, other organizations
(19:20):
and like existing places can give you social proof. We've
certainly seen this with some of our guests, like somebody
being like I'm the well with Laura may Martin, like
I'm the time management expert for Google. It's like, okay, well,
Google's a big organization, so therefore you have the social
proof of a big organization saying you were worth paying
for this. So if you've spoken places, worked places that
(19:42):
can be helpful, you can collect testimonials. I would suggest
people start doing this if there are people you've worked
with who just are willing to do this to give
a short few sentences about why you are so awesome
to work with or something you've done that was so amazing.
Those can be helpful for the future too.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Totally and I think people don't do it enough. Honestly,
I don't think i'd ever say note of writing a
testimonial for something that I had a positive experience about
and then collecting them can be incredibly valuable. So I say,
reach out and do that more. And I'm talking partly
to myself.
Speaker 1 (20:15):
Yeah, well, and also collecting numbers. I mean, numbers can
be abused, but they at least appear to be objective.
So anything time you can quantify something you've done, that's
very easy thing for someone to quote to say that
you're an expert, Like so, Sarah, you've seen this, So
I mean with various things.
Speaker 2 (20:32):
Oh definitely. I mean I had to include that in
my book proposal too, like number of people that have
gone through my courses, number of people on my newsletter,
all that kind of stuff. In the medical world, speaking
of expertise, surgeons track how many cases they do. And
I want to give you permission, especially if you were
a family member is having surgery and it's something like
a little unusual, like not like an epidectomy, but something
(20:52):
like more specific, you can feel free to ask your
surgeon how many of these have you done? Because most
of them will be proud to give you a good
number that will make you feel better. And if they're
like two, then you can maybe find out if okay,
well someone going to be assisting you or like, think
about whether that's what you want.
Speaker 1 (21:10):
Yeah, you may not want to be the first, if
at all possible, and given that, you know, in humanity
generally people aren't the first. I mean we all have
some similarities. Finding somebody who's done something a few more
times might be worth seeking out. So yeah, you can
try to put numbers one like have you saved an
organization money by doing X? That tends to be a
(21:33):
number of people can do? Or how many something your
direct reports have done? Moving any sort of metric. Anything
you can come up with is going to be helpful.
All Right, we're going to take one more quick ad
break and then we'll be back with more on making
a name for yourself. Well, we are back talking about
(22:04):
how to make a name for yourself being known as
an expert on some topic, maybe not the world's foremost
expert on something, but even just within your organization, being
the thing that people always seek you out, that there's
a reason people come to you for something, and having
that thing can be very valuable from a career perspective,
(22:24):
because it's just so much harder to replace someone who
everyone is seeking out for a particular valuable bit of knowledge.
As you're building up your expertise in something, it really
does help to stick with it for at least a
little while. We see and joke all the time of
people who have started a podcast and then they do
(22:44):
like two episodes and I guess they run out of ideas,
So I guess maybe that wasn't something that they really
wanted to pursue long term. But when you can, then
you have time become the secret ingredient that sort of
builds up the sense like, oh, yeah, I've been doing
this for three years, That in and of itself provides
evidence of expertise that being a fly by night kind
(23:04):
of person doesn't. So, Sarah, you've stuck with blogging for
twenty years, I mean podcasting for many What has made
you stick with it in these cases?
Speaker 2 (23:15):
What has made me enable myself to use time as
a secret ingredient? By the way, whenever I think about
the number of years, all I can think about, and
I know we'd well on the negative as humans, is like,
why did I start my newsletter in like twenty twenty
three or something.
Speaker 1 (23:29):
Yeah, as opposed to like twenty twelve. Yes, okay, two
thousand and five I would have.
Speaker 2 (23:34):
Yeah, I feel like cashed out by now. I don't
even know. Well, I don't know, maybe not, but like
crazy anyway, So what made me stick with it?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
I don't know.
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It's super super fun, which is why you want to
And I enjoy writing, I enjoy creating. I found it
to be a strength. I found it to be something
that I'm efficient with doing, which makes it doable. And
I love kind of like the social stuff that's come
out of it, and just the act of sharing and
the act of expressing myself in that way. And I
think that's important to say, because if you don't find
(24:04):
doing it at least to be like rewarding and generally
I don't know, like inherently satisfying, then it's as hard
because I don't want to be like, oh, work has
to be your passion, you know. But at the same time,
you're not gonna want to chug away at something for
twenty years if it's miserable.
Speaker 1 (24:22):
Yeah, you have to find that Venn diagram overlap between
stuff the world finds useful and stuff you personally enjoy
and kind of find the sweet spot between where those overlap.
And I can always tell if people aren't really into it.
I mean, I've given the advice all over the place
that you should start a blog or start a newsletter
or something on this topic if you want to be
known as an expert. And then I'll see the person
(24:42):
like do it once a week at the exact same
time every time, Like they're doing one blog post week
at the exact same time. It's because they put it
on their to do list that they know they're supposed
to do it, but they're not that excited about it.
Whereas when people get into blogging, they start doing it
like every day they you know, are it happen almost
it like sometimes random times because they had a little
(25:02):
bit of free time and they're like, oh, yeah, well
I'll do a blog post if people want to check
out Optimistic Musings by the blogger Elizabeth Frost. She started
blogging a few years ago and she thought she might
give it a whirl, and she now posts daily and
has a ton of fun with it, and it gets
a lot of comments every day. And I think it's
because she really, really enjoyed it, and so you do
(25:23):
want to make sure you are doing something that brings
happiness if you're going to spend your precious time on
earth doing.
Speaker 2 (25:30):
It totally otherwise find something else.
Speaker 1 (25:33):
But you also don't want to quit prematurely either, because
there's also going to be some rough moments. So I
would say, like, if you're saying of starting a podcast,
make yourself a list of like twenty topics you could
do an episode on right, because then you will be
able to keep going. And if you can't generate a
list of twenty topics, you probably shouldn't start it because
you won't stick with it. Like they're not going to
magically come to you. But if you do, you don't
(25:55):
have to do it forever. Like you can decide I'm
going to try this out, like I'm going to start
a new letter on this topic. I am going to
commit to doing two per week for a year, and
we will see what comes of it. Now, I'm not
saying that this is going to provide such amazing, wonderful
opportunities that you're going to be able to quit your
job and retire forever if that's what you are looking for,
But something will come out of it, like you cannot
(26:16):
put one hundred things on a topic out into the
universe to some number of people without something happening, right,
Like this is just an odds matter at this point.
Speaker 2 (26:26):
Yeah, I think you're right. I actually just heard I
want a reference. There was a podcast episode by Laura Tremaine,
who does the podcast Ten Things to Tell You, and
it's about podcasting specifically, and like advice for starting a podcast.
She couched it as like what I wish I knew
when I started mine, and it's like exactly what you
just said. But she recommended a minimum of three months,
(26:48):
which I think is a nice window of time because
that's enough time for you to figure out, Okay, is
there a learning curve here? Do I enjoy this? Do
I have enough to talk about? Do I have the
right topic? But it's not so long that you're committing
yourself to forever. So pick some kind of reasonable timeframe.
Maybe it's three months, maybe it's slightly different than that,
and give it a try if that's something you're interested
(27:09):
in doing it, And again, does not have to be
a podcast, could be anything.
Speaker 1 (27:12):
Yeah, and don't think of it being one off and
done like you want to give yourself enough runway that
something could happen. So it's not that you're going to
write one white paper on this topic and then expect
everything to come from that. But it could be that
something comes out of that one white paper that you
have another one you're gonna write, and if you commit
to doing let's say six over the course of the
year for this industry publication, like something's gonna come of
(27:35):
that too. Like it's impossible to put like that much
out there and not have something come back, Which leads
us to our last part of making a name for
yourself is being open to opportunity, Like if cool things
do come to you, you want to maybe pursue them, Like,
be open to doing that. I mean, Sarah, I know
(27:56):
you do try to say yes to stuff like this.
Speaker 2 (27:59):
Yeah, yeah, I mean I definitely say yes more than
I say no. I mean that's how the book is.
I've always wanted to do it, but it was more
about like kind of like someone was like, hey, send
me this, and I was like, you know what, Yes,
let me try. I know I might fail, but it's
certainly worth a try. Same with speaking engagement I have
coming up that I think is going to be really fun.
(28:20):
It was a little outside of what I've done before,
and someone was like, just submit an application, and I did,
and you know, there was some imposter syndrome like do
I belong here, Am I an expert, et cetera. But
I just got past it and now I'm like super
excited to go. So I do think it's not always
a yes. Sometimes you also have a gut feeling that
it should be a no, And I think you should
(28:41):
listen to that there, But at the same time, make
sure it's not your self doubt that's causing the note.
It has to be more like no, this is a key,
I don't like it.
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Yeah, I'm doing something a little email newsletter side gig
right now on something I'm calling the Yes Quest. So
I put out to my newsletter list did people want
to sign up for this yes Quest? And I've just
been sending like two emails a week encouraging people to
say yes to some random things. Now, I'm not talking
about yes to something that seems burdensome or like I
(29:11):
really don't want to do it. But if it's a
yes to something that you're kind of talking yourself out of, right, like, well,
I guess I could go out to dinner with those
people who sound fascinating, But you know what if I'm
home late to like, what if that means that I'm
not doing the laundry that night. I you know, it's
just like you're talking yourself out of it. That's often
(29:32):
a sign that you do want to do it, and
then you're just trying to be practical. So I would
encourage people to say yes to things like that, because
you never know where it's going to lead. You know,
it's the things you're talking yourself into that you probably
want to say no to. If you're sitting there saying, well,
it's probably going to be good for my career and
maybe if I want to live abroad long term, this
(29:52):
is something I should experiment. Just like no, if you're
talking yourself into it, you don't want to do it.
Those are not the kinds of yeses we really want
to do. It's the ones where you're t fucking yourself
out of So try things out, Reserve some time for
things that might come up. If your schedule is absolutely packed,
you won't be willing to take on something new. If
people are like, oh, could you give a talk on
this topic that you find fascinating to this group that
(30:14):
could be interesting, but you're like, oh, but I'm so
pressed with these deadlines that work, there's no way I
can do that. That's where you don't get those opportunities.
So you want to make sure you have some space,
and you can also create communities of people to sort
of help bring opportunities to you. I mean, Sarah, I
know you've connected with other people in various podcasting and
(30:38):
blogging worlds.
Speaker 2 (30:39):
Oh my gosh, and I like it when it comes
kind of organically. I mean sometimes it's more orchestrated like
our Patriot or things like that which I've met amazing
people through, or best laid plans a live and then
other times it's just like someone emails and you meet
up and you just say yes, and you know, you
see where the connection leads.
Speaker 1 (30:54):
Yeah. So if there's other people who seem to be
experts in this topic that you are aiming to be
experts in, see if you can collaborate on something, or
see if you can meet up and have some sort
of check in every quarter or something like that. It's
a way to get yourself part of that community. And
when you are part of a community of experts, you
become seen more as an expert yourself just by virtue
of being associated with other people who are also experts
(31:17):
in something. Yes, that is true, all right, So lots
of different ideas on way to make a name for yourself.
Hopefully some of this has been useful even if you
are not planning on starting a blogger podcast, but you
just want to be known as the expert on a
particular area in your profession. Maybe some things that might
be helpful as you plan to do that. So today's
(31:38):
question Sarah, As we are coming up for people's spring breaks,
this listener writes in, it's not really in the cards
to go somewhere cool this year for spring break. I'll
probably be working for most of it. How can I
make sure this is still a somewhat fun time for
the kids and for me.
Speaker 2 (31:58):
Yeah, so definitely have been that boat before, especially because
my kids spring breaks don't actually line up very well
right now, so it's not our peak traveling time. So
I definitely think camps can be helpful, especially if you
have well, I mean, it sounds like you're working, so
you may need some kind of childcare anyway, and looking
for specialty camps like maybe something a little bit different,
(32:19):
if different sports venues or art places or something. A
lot of them are opportunistic these days, and they're smart.
They offer like camps during breaks for you to sign
up and get childcare there, so considering that can make
it more fun for the kids, and maybe doing it
with a friend would be even better. Treating your area
like a tourist and doing like a real staycation, like
maybe everybody writes down ideas and then you pull everything
(32:41):
together and let the kids each pick one out. Even
movies can be a nice relaxing thing to do during
a staycation, just because we don't have time to do
that kind of a thing during the day otherwise. And
then I definitely think banding with others can be helpful.
You're probably not the only one staying home, so finding
out if anybody else wants to do a kid swap
or a big group outing could add some fun to
(33:03):
your days.
Speaker 1 (33:04):
Yeah, I mean, definitely think about the camp options. I've
seen ones to advertise from everything from like a climbing
gym to karate to art studios. There's definitely some stuff
out there if you live in a reasonably sized community.
But if your kids are even slightly older but not
old enough to sort of you know, you don't want
to just have them fending for themselves for the entire week.
(33:25):
If you have an occasional sitter who might have some availability,
you could have that person take them somewhere for a
day or two, right like if the weather is nicer
for spring break. I mean, they could go to an
amusement park if one happens to be open, or go
to like a further away trampoline park or something like
(33:45):
that for several hours and make a day trip of it.
I think you could also definitely have the mindset of
one big adventure, one little adventure. You could go somewhere
over the weekends on either side of spring break. It
could be an overnight trip, it doesn't have to be.
You could do a day trip on say both of
those saturdays, and that would still be something memorable. And
then maybe two evenings during the week you all do
(34:08):
something that you wouldn't normally do. I mean, you go
to an indoor pool at night, or you go out
to how I'll have dinner at food trucks that are
part somewhere. I mean, you could come up with something
that would be adventurous and would make the time memorable,
because that's really what you're getting at with traveling somewhere
over spring break too, is like making memories. So what
can you do to make memories even if the memories
(34:30):
are where you are and you are working forty hours
that week?
Speaker 2 (34:35):
I love it? All right, love of the week?
Speaker 1 (34:38):
All right? Well, I would suggest that people do check
out Dori Clark's books on personal branding. Her books stand
Out definitely has a lot of great information on that
and I enjoyed reading it, So that could be my
love of the week.
Speaker 2 (34:51):
Well, I'm going to go with one that I didn't
realize was so controversial.
Speaker 1 (34:55):
What is it?
Speaker 2 (34:57):
Thin mints that are from the freezer? What do you
have against I don't have any.
Speaker 1 (35:03):
Well, I was always, as a Girl Scout sort of
mystified why thin mints were the most popular. I don't know,
I feel like it's not really that exciting of a cookie,
and yet they would always be like thirty to forty
percent of the sales. Right. I was a pretty good
Girl Scouts cookie salesperson, so we're talking to some serious
volume here, and those were always a higher percentage than
(35:25):
I would give them based on how they taste, and
then I found out people are putting them in the freezer,
and I just don't understand, Like what it tastes like
a cold thin min? Like what does that do for you?
Speaker 2 (35:34):
It gets the chocolate shell to have like a crispier texture,
and it's just amazing. Room temperature thin min's don't quite
do it for me, but like freezer thin min's amazing.
Speaker 1 (35:45):
Love them, okay, all right, Well to each her own.
I'm not saying they're bad. I'm not saying they would
be my love of the week though. All right, well,
good thing we each get th We get our own
love of the week.
Speaker 2 (36:01):
More thin mian's for me, all right, more thinmans for you?
Speaker 1 (36:04):
All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
We've been talking about how to make a name for yourself.
We will be back next week with more on making
work and life fit together.
Speaker 2 (36:14):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 3 (36:22):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
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