December 3, 2024 • 46 mins
In today’s episode, Sarah chats with Shira Gill, author of LifeStyled, out this week about all things organizing. Shira shares all about her philosophy of “edit then elevate”, and discusses cataloguing all of her belongings, and her advice for getting started w a big intimidating organizing project!
In the Q&A, Laura and Sarah answer a listener question about management of tasks that need to happen “soonish”, but not necessarily on a defined date.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:09):
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
This episode is airing in early December of twenty twenty four.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Shira Gill, who is
the author of the new book Lifestyled. People may know
her from various minimalist writings over the years. They will
talk about all things organizing and style, et cetera. Sarah,
what are your thoughts on organizing currently?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I love talking about organizing. I love reading things about organizing.
I love thinking about what my house would be like
if it was organized. I do not actually like organizing.
And that was preps.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I mean, we said we were going to talk too
much in any of our episodes about our goals for
the past year or the upcoming year, because we have
episodes devoted to those things. But I seem to recall
that organizing the house may have been a goal for
you this year.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Did that happen?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's been a goal for many years, and you know
this was a year I did a lot of things
that were goals for many years, like a lot of
things that have been lingering one hundred dreams lists and have.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Happened, but not that, not that one.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So I know, sorry, you maybe trying to reframe your
thinking about this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I just might be getting closer to outsourcing some of it.
I do actually still want to have a home that
has less clutter in it and more the things that
we actually use and reclaim some of our space that
is taken up by piles of who knows what. And
I don't currently have space in my life to like
(02:12):
make this happen on a regular basis. So I am
at least becoming more realistic about it. But I still
love interviews like Shira because she makes me maybe realize
how like maybe I don't have to think of it
as so big, Like maybe there are some things I
could do that would get me eighty percent of the
way there. That would be almost like eighty twenty twenty
percent of the work, eighty percent of the bet of it.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
And Annabel does some of this right, like justin she
liked doing some organizing things. Maybe she could be your
little helper on this.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I mean, I actually think there could be a role
for her, like formally taking some of this on as
like you know, like I'm not employing my child, but
you know what I mean, like rewarding her for some
of her efforts. And I think she would enjoy it
and it would be like a valuable skill set and
maybe even would be fun for her to like read
one of these books or take a video course on
organizing or something like that and get her really in it.
(03:00):
By the way, this is not like gender specific, but
there's like zero chance that either of my other two
children are going to have this proclivity. So it just
happens to be her. But yeah, I mean, maybe that
will be part of the answer. She's busy too, Yeah, well,
I mean that was certainly for us.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I mean, we had boxes in the.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Hallway for a long time and then we hired somebody
to get rid of them, and now we don't have
any boxes. And it's good because once a lot of
the initial stuff was done, like nobody's going to leave
something on the floor and the upstairs hallway at this
point because it's clean, like there's nothing on the floor.
Like when there were boxes, stuff was getting left there
left and right, because it's like once there's boxes, it's
(03:41):
a free for all, right, like it's you know, piles
of stuff attract more stuff. But now that space has
been clear for a year plus and it's really lovely.
I like to have that be the case. You know,
my kids' rooms, so it's constant work in progress because
they outgrow stuff, they get new stuff, so it's not
(04:02):
like you can just do it and forget it forever.
And so I think that's one issue people run into
with this. It's like it's going to be more ongoing
than I think some people are entirely prepared for. But
so it goes.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, it's an organizing cycle, not an organizing project.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yes, a cycle. I think that's good to say.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
But we'll hear what Shira has to say about organizing
our homes, our lives, everything else.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So here we go.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, I am so excited to welcome Shira Gil to
the show. She is an organizing expert and author. She's
about to have her third book out in the world,
but her first two were Minimalista and Organized Living, and
we're going to talk all things organizing, home stuff, maybe
simplicity beyond that. Welcome to the show, Shira.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Thank you. I'm so excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Me too. I love the concept of minimalism. I aspire
to it, and I'm absolutely not there. I'm like going
to be taking notes.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, Okay, let's go.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So I guess start with that. How did you get
interested in the concept of minimalism and how do you
even jibe that with like the typical modern American experience
of a lot that many of us have kind of naturally,
especially if we have jobs and kids and all of
the things.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Yeah, I mean, the pressure to consume is truly everywhere.
I think it's in social media, it's and movies and TV.
It's the advertisements were fed, It's the whole culture that
we live in our Western world is like buy more
and you'll be happier. So I was raised by hippies,
New York hippies, so a different breed of hippie I'm
(05:43):
in California now, but my parents both were kind of
intellectuals who had a real I wouldn't say a minimalist philosophy,
but they were anti consumerism, and so when they raised me,
I also think it was a different time. I was
born in the seventies and there wasn't this like you
have to get the best nicest stroller and the five
(06:05):
baby swings. It was.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
It was a simpler time from what I hear from them.
So I did grow up with that foundation, but I
was a little different because I always loved pretty things.
I loved clothes.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I was really interested in design and interiors and styling.
So there was sort of a push pull, you know,
from the time I was little where it was like
my parents were teaching me experiences over things things don't matter,
and I felt deeply that I agreed, But I also
liked pretty things, and so I think I kind of
unknowingly created my own minimalist philosophy, which was rooted in
(06:44):
defining just the right amount of stuff for me, So
kind of defining like what is the intentional right amount
of stuff for me and my lifestyle and personality and values,
but without any of the clutter any of the excess,
and so I just that was some I just sort
of I didn't even realize it was a practice or
a philosophy. I just knew that clutter bothered me, and
(07:07):
I liked my room to feel a certain way. And
my parents divorced when I was very young, so I
went back and forth every other day from house to house.
I had to drag stuff with me back and forth,
and so I think because of my upbringing, stuff became
sort of this oppressive thing, and I just felt like
I always wanted less stuff to manage, less stuff to
(07:27):
drag around, and that less, to me equal freedom. So
very different from the messages that I think were constantly fed,
which is like more is better, More is going to
make you feel pretty and successful and like you can
keep up with everybody.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I was always having this.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Pull in the opposite direction towards less means more travel,
more fun, more freedom, more ease. And that's something I
really had my big light buel moment when I had
my daughters.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
And so I'm now the mother of two teen girls,
but when they were born is really when.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
I started my business, because I made a decision I
want to be a minimalist mom, and I didn't see
many examples of that in real life, and so I
kind of made it my own personal challenge to resist
the noise and resist the pressure and resist all the
people telling me that I needed the latest this and
(08:25):
that and this gadget and that gadget. And I really
focused on experiences over things with how I raised my kids,
and my business kind of took off from there.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh my gosh. I have so many questions. But the
first thing I'm super curious about, and I know our
listeners are too, is what does a minimalist mom look like.
I'm interested in the various stages like coller mom versus
teen mom, Like how yeah, Like, give me some examples.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Well, it's a challenge.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
First of all, I'll admit that I think my philosophy
started when I was registering for my baby shower and
I went to the store it's I think it's out
of business now, but it was called Giggle, and it
was like all the beautiful baby things, and they presented
me with like a twenty five page list of everything
that I needed to be a mom. And at the time,
(09:18):
I didn't have any close girlfriends. I don't have a
sister who had kids, so I had no frame of reference,
and my mom, I remember, just kind of got very
snarky with the saleswoman and was like, you know, all
a baby needs to be happy is food and something
to sleep in. And I was like, okay, there's got
to be something in between. So I think for me,
(09:42):
you know, the way that I defined it for myself
was I want just enough without the excess. And that
volume is different for every person. You know, having now
coached hundreds and thousands of people virtually around the world,
it varies so greatly by who you are, what your
care is, what your climate is, what your job is.
(10:02):
For me, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Our weather is always lovely. We don't have real seasons,
and so I kind of just thought, like, Okay, if
I do laundry once a week, how many outfits do
I need for this baby? How many socks and how
many blankets do I really need? And I just kind
(10:24):
of guesstimated on like what would be enough to be
a mom and do all the practical things like feed
my baby and have my baby be safe and warm
without a million trinkets. And I had also been a
preschool teacher, in a former life, and so I had
seen the kids you know that I worked with were three,
(10:45):
four and five, like they would just play for hours
with a cardboard box and like invent a whole society
and like community, and so I really realized kids don't
need much, and in fact, they thrive and they're more
creative when they have less stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
So I really limited like the toys and the gizmos.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
And the gadgets, and instead I just hit the streets
and I was out every day taking walks with my
kids and taking them to museums and ice cream and
I really my model in my head was like I
want our house to be a place that is filled
with like ease and calm and facilitates rest, and then
all the fun stuff is kind of out of the
(11:26):
house in the city, like that's our playground and that's
our playroom. And we didn't have a big house, so
we didn't even have a playroom, and our kids for
many years shared.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
A small room. So I was like, I want to
give them the most fun childhood.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
But in my mind that just didn't have any real
connection to stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So so interesting, we're going to take a quick break
and then maybe we'll talk a little bit about kind
of how that looks in a little bit older kids.
So yeah, sup, were interesting? Great, all right, we are back.
(12:09):
So I'm picturing only like a few toys, if any,
which actually does lower the burdens significantly on cleaning up
those toys. So I kind of get where this is going.
And that makes a lot of sense to me. What
would a more minimalist lifestyle or space look like for
like a school aged family.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Yeah, and I will say, I mean my kids had
toys that they were not living like an austere lifestyle
full of deprivation. It was just limited, right, Like we
would have like three big baskets in our living room
and it was like those baskets were the capacity of
the toys that we had. And so I'm big into
limits and boundaries as a professional organizer. I think that's
(12:48):
the key to the universe. So as I mean, I
will say, like when my kids were two and four,
that was peak stuff and there was no way around it,
Like there were things that we needed. We needed this
stroller and the baby carrier and the multiple car seats.
Like I hated it, but it was just the reality.
(13:08):
As they got older, my kids were both prolific artists,
and the art volume was insane, and so we actually
put up a magnet wall in our kitchen so that
they had kind of a gallery to display their favorite art.
And so I would say, like, do as much art
as you want, but then you have to kind of
(13:29):
pick and curate like what goes up on the art wall.
So again it's like those creative freedom but then limits.
And I in my organizing work and in my own home,
I always had kind of a rule of five for kids,
like no more than five broad categories out at a time.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
And that doesn't mean doing five things at the same time.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
It means like we're only going to visually see five
categories of stuff in the house. So that could be
like books, art, puzzles, and games like goes and a
play kitchen.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And what I found in organizing other people's homes.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Is most people had like twenty five categories of stuff,
and they were overwhelmed, their kids were drowning, nobody could
make decisions or clean up, and so my goal was
always like make play really easy and make clean up
really easy. And so that kind of all through the
elementary school years was like five categories of stuff if
(14:25):
they get bored of one thing, they can trade it
in for another thing. If they're like we no longer
like lego, Okay, we're going to sell or donate the Lego.
We can replace it with one thing, but we're not
just adding more and more forever. And now that they're teenagers,
it's been kind of fascinating because all they want is
a device and to hang out with their friends, and
(14:46):
they have no It's like the stuffies are out.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
They're not interested in even board games, which is kind
of sad for me.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
But I will say to any parents who feel like
they're totally drowning, it gets so much easier. Like I
feel like one day we just woke up and our
kids were like, yeah, don't need this, don't need this,
Like just need my phone and my friends.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
So that's been a big ship.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Have you seen my twelve year old's cosmetic collection? Though,
I mean, I'm just kidding. That's the one area because
I'm thinking to myself, like, where are we still having
stuff problems? I'm like, oh, yes, it's the uh, the.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Recipe and the bubble and I know we all share
one bathroom and it used to be so curated and
lovely with like one shampoo and one conditioner and one
body wash. It Now I'm like, what are all of
these bath bobs and face masks and skin scrubs. Yeah, so,
I mean the struggle is real.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I love it. But no, that's super interesting, and it's true,
like the volume of stuff is naturally going to ebb
and flow with their phases, and it's nice for listeners
with younger kids to perhaps hear that it is going
to get a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Better, it gets a lot easier.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, let's talk about I was living through your new
book and one you know, you talk about like automation
and sort of solving problem in the home, and I
think that one that is super super common for people
with younger kids and school age kids is when you
get home and everyone has their backpack and their lunch
and like blah blah blah, and like everyone's tired. But
(16:14):
your book has some ideas and solutions for like making
this less of a thing and perhaps even making your
house less of a disaster in dealing with those things.
So yeah, I know I'm not alone. Can you chat with.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Them or no?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
I think that entry I mean when I'm in a
house and people are overwhelmed. I always start with the
entry because I feel like if you can lock in
good systems for your entry and really curb the clutter
from coming through the front door and kind of leaking
all over your house, you're going to have a leg up.
So what I always think is clutter is information. So
(16:50):
I don't judge clutter. I'm interested in clutter. What is it,
why is it here? What does it tell us? And
so with an entry, it's really interesting to just look
at kind of the audit of your clutter in your entry,
what gets dumped and is it getting dumped because there
is no system?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
That's the first thing.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Is it getting dumped because people just aren't taking it
to where it needs to go? And then it's a
habit problem and not a system problem. But usually I'll
just do an audit and I'll say to people like,
do you have an easy place for your kids to
drop backpacks when they get home from school?
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Like is there a hook at arms reach?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
It's shocking how many people will realize like, oh my gosh,
we don't, or like our kids can't reach it, and
that's why they're just dumping it on the floor. So
I like to get kids super involved, and I like
to say to them like, Okay, you're walking through the
front door, where would you want to put your bag,
and like show me where you can reach, and let's
put a hook right there, and like have them actually
(17:48):
stand with their arm out and their backpack and put
a hook in right where they can see it so
they have some buy in, like this is a system
I'm a part of.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Likewise, with like a jacket, I usually like.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
To do a really sturdy double hook that can have
a jacket and a backpack. Just like school where kids
are used to having like a cubby or a locker
or some sort of system.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
You just want to replicate that in your home.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
So it's like you come in, first thing you see
is a hook for your drop station. Many people are
shoe off houses and they have just this mountain of
shoes by the front door. I like to really limit
that to one or two pairs per family member and
store the majority of.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
The shoes back in their closets.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
In our house, we're in a house that's about one
hundred and twenty years old, and so we don't have
an entry closet.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
There's no mudroom, there's no system.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
You walk right into our home and you're in the
living room, so I am walking the walk here, like
I have put up hooks.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I made sort of a makeshift.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Cabinet, and it is literally as simple as some hooks
for the jackets, the backpacks, the dog leash, and some
cubbies or even just basket to drop your shoes.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And the last thing is a place for mail bills,
kid art, like where do the paper piles go? So
I personally like to make it as simple as possible.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
I just have a massive, pretty basket in my living
room kind of blends in with the decor. Everybody knows
if they want me to look at anything, review anything,
sign anything, pay anything, it gets dumped in that basket.
Meaning if they dump it on the counter, it's not
going to be dealt with. It's going to be thrown away.
So having those clear rules like with your family of
(19:35):
put it in the inbox, that's what I call it
in my house. It's like that's the holy grail of
family management, is have one place where anything that needs
your attention can go, and then you just have to
show up and review it like once a week or so.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I like the massive inbox idea because it solves the
problems of like multiple piles all over the place. Plus
if you're processing it, it makes it very easy to
be like, Okay, every Friday, I empty the inbox or
whatever your day of choices and as usual, like it's
physically getting emptied. It's like we're going back to like
David Allen put your tests on a list of pieces
of paper and throw them in a thing or something
(20:12):
like that.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Yeah exactly. I like, yeah, you've got to have a
date with your inbox. And I think so many people
over organize. So a lot of my clients are like, well,
here's where I put bills, and here's where I put
things that need to be filed, and here's where I
put my kid.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
And I'm like, no, it's all to dos.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
So centralize your to dos would be a tip. I
would say, just make it easy. Have them in one place.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, anything that has a physical manifestation. I like, exactly,
how do you contend? Like, let's say you're trying, actually
I have We'll have two step of questions. Let's start
with the easier one. Let's say you're trying to help
your family have less stuff over all, but you have
some younger family members or maybe even a partner with
very different tendencies.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yes, where do.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You kind of like draw the line or is that
something where you're just like, I can't worry about them.
I don't know. How have you handled that?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Yeah, it's I think that's my most common question and
struggle for people is everybody has a different clutter threshold.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
That's what I call it.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Like some people are truly unphased by clutter or piles,
they don't find them irritating or distracting. And some people
feel like they can't focus or have peace of mind
if they're surrounded by laundry and dishes and piles. So
the first thing, and I will say, like when I
married my husband, he was a total slob. He dumped
(21:33):
stuff everywhere. There were no systems, there were no boundaries.
And my kids are not They do not define themselves
as minimalists. So I am the minimalist in our home
right and I have very clear thoughts about how things
should be, and my family members have very different thoughts
and they're all valid.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
So what to do about it? So a few things?
Speaker 5 (21:54):
I think Number one is, if you are the person
who craves order and tidiness, you've got to take responsibility
for that by managing your own stuff and modeling first.
And so before you even talk to family members about
their stuff. I would challenge listeners to edit, organize, and
(22:16):
systematize every single thing they own without saying a word.
And I did that in my own home and life,
and there is kind of a process of osmosis where
your family members they're not bugged, they're not attacked, but
they do see things shifting, they see your habits shifting.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
That's step one.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
And it's hard, right because it's so easy to fingerpoint
and be like, well, my husband is dumping these things
and the teenagers you know, everywhere. But step one is
deal with your own stuff first. So until you have
thoroughly edited and organized and systematized everything you own, so
your mementos and sentimental stuff, all of your clothes, all
(22:56):
of your paperwork, all of your books, don't even talk to.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Them once you have done that.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
What I find it really helpful to do is kind
of have a family meeting and for the common areas
in the house, define like what are the terms that
we're comfortable with for the house, and what are the
terms for our individual spaces.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
So my need is stronger than anyone else's need.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Right, So the deal that I got my family to
agree to is and we have a small house too,
so we're all on top of each other. So living room,
dining room, kitchen has a real standard where it's like
these spaces are going to be clean and minimal and
dialed in. We're not going to dump stuff, We're going
to clean up every night, like dishes go away before we.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Go to bed.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
No piles for my girl's respective rooms. They get to
own what they want. They have their own money now,
they can buy things, they get presents. They don't have
to make their bed perfectly, they don't have to fold
their clothes perfectly. That's their domain and they can have
that freedom as long as they maintain the.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Rest of the house. Likewise, during COVID, we actually built
like a studio and office.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
In our back for my husband. He has ADHD, he
has stuff everywhere. He doesn't have systems. He has a
whole different process and system for how he works than
I do. And so that has been like a game
changer for both of us because I am often working
in our dining room and so I need like calm
(24:28):
and quiet and peace of mind. And he's fine with
like three monitors and paper everywhere and coffee mugs everywhere,
So giving everybody their own slice of real estate, but
then kind of defining how can we cooperate for those
common spaces.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I have found to be the best solution.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I think that makes sense just from a mental health standpoint.
It's like, Okay, that is their domain, and as long
as we're not like having an infestation or something like that,
then it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
The one other thing I'll say is finding motivation and
buy in. Like if you're the person who wants to
be more minimal or more organized, I will say to
my kids, like, listen, I know this isn't your thing,
but if her house is like easy and we don't
have to clean up all the time, you can have
friends over whenever you want.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You can have sleepovers whenever you want. You can have
movie parties.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
So they've seen the benefits of having a minimal home.
Is we have an open door policy. Like our house
is the house that all the teenagers hang out at.
We host sleepovers all the time. We used to be
part of a babysitting co op.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
We'd have twenty kids running around eating popcorn so our
house is fun because it's minimal, and I think that's
not something you hear.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Super interesting and I get that, like there's more space,
it's not like if you don't have a thousand toys
to wreck everywhere, then cleanup is always going to be easier.
And that's super interesting how it's benefitted socially. Well, we're
going to take another quick break and then I'm going
to ask you about home makeovers. I guess great. All right,
(26:09):
we're back and we are airing this closer to the
new year. And so I know, I personally have set
goals related to organizing my home many many a time,
and often have ended up finding it much more difficult
than I thought or quit somewhere in that process. But
I know that one of your strengths is really motivating people.
(26:31):
I get that from the pages of your book. I
read Organized Living, and I'm like, this is so like
aspirational and motivating. So what would you say to someone
who is embarking on a project like that? And do
you have any suggested way of going about it if
you're sort of in a starting from scratch kind of place,
And even though I know your work goes beyond this, yeah,
more focusing on the home space aspect.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
So I think one of the biggest mistakes I see
people make when trying to organize their whole home is
trying to organize their whole home at once. And that
really is so common because we get excited and motivated
and it's like, all right, I'm ready to deal with this,
and then what commonly happens is people just kind of
run from room to room, like straightening a little thing here,
(27:14):
organizing a little thing there, and they never really see
massive transformation or impact. So my number one rule is
you must start small and specific. So if you feel
like you want to organize and declutter your entire home,
what I would do is I would make a list
of every room in your house or every space, so
it could be like your entry, closet, living dining, kitchen, bedrooms, bathroom,
(27:37):
storage areas. Then I would rank them in order. And
people are always like, where do I start? If you
don't know where to start with either your entry or
your bedroom. I say this because the entry we already
went over. It's just a high traffic zone, high impact
for organizing.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Your bedroom is where you end your day and start
your day, and it often does not feel like a
spa or a zen like place, and I think it's a.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
Lower impact project. Like I would say the kitchen is
the highest impact. There's just the most stuff, the most zones,
the most going on there. So if you really don't
know where to start and you can't figure out, I
would say entry and then bedroom. But you want to
make that list and then you just want to focus
one space at a time and kind of have like
(28:28):
tunnel vision where even if everything feels chaotic, you're saying
to your brain, it's okay, brain, we have a list,
we've made a plan.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
We're going to go in order. We're going to tackle everything.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
But right now we're only doing the entry and we're
not touching any other space or any other project until
the entry is edited, organized and styled. So when I
work with clients, that's really the first thing I do
is I'm like, Okay, what are all the spaces, Let's
rank them in order, and then we just go one, two, three, four, five, six,
(29:00):
So that really helps people. I also would say having
easy places to donate. One of the things that really
trips people up is Okay, I've decluttered, but now I
just have like my bags of stuff everywhere, and you
have to have an easy way to get that out
the front door. So even as simple as just saying like, Okay,
(29:21):
where is my most easy, convenient drop off point for
household goods? Do I have a place for harder to
donate things like electronics or paint or hazardous waste? Like
doing half an hour of research and having your drop
stations ready so that once you've hit one space, I
(29:42):
would say, as soon as that entry is decluttered and organized,
you do your trash donate, recycle run, and now it's
time to move on to the next space, so it
really feels complete.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that's been a struggle for me, the oh
I'm going to donate it, and then I have a
pile and like, I mean my case, we have a
large garage, so there's no reason it couldn't go in there.
But I like your idea of like making it easy
and like having a category set up ahead of time,
like this stuff goes there, this stuff goes there's automated.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Yes, and use your kids if you have kids, they're
always my runners. So I'll drive to all the drop
up places and be like okay, like take this bag
and go drop it off and come back and then
I'm just the chauffeur. And I think it's also good
to model for your family, like the letting go process,
the donating responsibly. But yeah, make sure you have a
plan to get this stuff out. And the other thing
(30:34):
I would say that people usually don't slow down enough
to think about is your why.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Why are you decluttering?
Speaker 5 (30:40):
Why are you wanting to get organized or make a
change in your home? That is where I always start,
and it really is the most important step, because if
you don't have a why, you're not going to stay motivated,
You're not going to stay energized, and you're just going
to be moving piles around. If you have a clear
and motivating why, like I want to save money to
(31:01):
save for a trip, or I'm so exhausted from losing things,
I want to improve my quality of life, You've got
to have something that keeps you energized throughout the process.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I like that you can put it on your phone
background screen motivate or something like that.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
And you know something really interesting that I hadn't heard,
which was edit and then something and then style. Can
you go through those edit organized? Is?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (31:29):
So the process I outline in my first book, Minimalista.
It's a five step process. You can apply it to
any space including your junk drawer, your basement, anything.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
So step one is clarify why are you doing this?
What are your goals?
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Step two is edit. That's always what you want to
do before you organize. Is you want to let go
of the clutter, let go of the things that are
not serving you. Then organize, which I make organization very
very simple. It is grouping similar things together and every
category has a home.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
And then elevate, which.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
That's what I call kind of like the cherry on top,
which is I want to now invest in beautiful drawer
liners or matching hangers for my closet, or beautiful baskets
for the laundry room. So elevating is kind of the
fun part for people, and I have put it intentionally
at the end because it's the reward and you don't
(32:22):
want to try to elevate before you've edited and organized.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
It doesn't make any sense. And the last step is maintained.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
So because life isn't static, kids are growing out of things,
gifts are coming in. You've got to have systems in place,
like even as simple as a donation bag in your entry,
your mudroom, or in the closets, having a one in
one out process, doing a seasonal cleanse before holidays or
(32:49):
birthdays so that you can kind of maintain that balance
that you've achieved.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Awesome, I love it. I'm feeling more motivated already.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Oh good.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I want to tell listeners Shira's Organized Living book is
amazing and now I'm super excited to get my hands
on the first one. But her third one is coming out,
and I wanted to give her a chance. So that
one is like, it's like a lot of these principles
but applied very broadly. Is that right correct?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah? So what happened is so minimalista.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
My first book really breaks down my entire toolkit for
how to edit, organize, and style every room in your house.
And when I finished that book, I've been an organizer
for fifteen years. So I have all of these friends
who were organizers, and whenever I would go to their homes,
I would be really nosy and I would say like, oh,
can I see how you organize under your kitchen sink
(33:42):
or in your medicine cabinet?
Speaker 4 (33:43):
And I would always come away with.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
These new, fresh ideas and inspiration, because every organizer is different.
So my second book, which was really the experience of
a lifetime, I got to travel around the world interviewing
twenty five of the top organizings in the world and
touring their homes.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And through this process of.
Speaker 5 (34:06):
Learning the systems and the habits and the methods of
twenty five very different organizers, from minimalists to maximalist people
that focus just on paper, or just on pantry, or
just on closet. I had this epiphany towards the end
of writing that book where I realized all of the organizers,
including myself, had three things in common, and the three
(34:28):
steps were volume, systems and habits. And so I started thinking, Okay,
if we can apply this to any home, like automating
systems implementing good habits to create a home that functions.
What if we took those same things volume systems and
(34:49):
habits and applied it to our life. And so my
third book, Lifestyled, which is coming out very soon, basically
takes this and applies it to things like your schedule,
your relationships, your finances, your health and wellness, your community service.
(35:09):
Like I really tested this in my own life and
found it to be hugely helpful. I'm a person where
it's really easy for me kind of effortlessly to edit
and organize my home, but my life was feeling very
full and overstuffed and chaotic, and everybody that I talked
to was likewise feeling like they were drowning with the
(35:31):
endless to dos and the responsibilities and so much kind
of clamoring for their attention. So in this book, what
I really dive into is how do you create a
more intentional life.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
How do you make the tough cuts the edits not
just your home but your life.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
How do you learn how to set boundaries and say
no and clarify what your biggest yeses are? And how
do you figure out how to create this volume system's
framework in every part of your life. So I apply
it to finances. I talk about how I run a
minimalist business. So I've applied all of these tips that
(36:12):
I've outlined for the home to business, to finances to relationships,
like how do you cut the relationship clutter? It's hard
to edit friends, but it's important right to decide who
are the people that are really worthy of my time
and my energy and my attention Because that's precious, Like
our most precious resource is our time, and so this
(36:34):
is a book that really gets into this.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
I love the extension and I love the fresh perspective
on some of those topics we love to talk about
all the time anyways, So that's great, super exciting. Yeah, well, Shira,
tell listeners where they can find you and learn more
about you, and remind everybody your book coming out and
the name and everything.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
My website is kind of my hub for all things
including you can sign up for my substack, where I
have subscribers from all over the world and every one
of the fifty States, and we're all kind of simplifying together.
It has my three books, so Minimalista, Organized Living, and
Lifestyled and you can follow me on Instagram at Shira
(37:18):
Gill for tips and inspiration on how to simplify and
streamline home and life.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Love before we go, and I forgot to warn you
this part, but don't worry, it's not scary, not scary.
We do a Love of the Week every week and
it can be anything, can be a product, can be
like a TV show you just watched. It could be literally,
I mean the weather. I don't care not the weather
where I am, because I'm in South Florida and it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Weather where I am.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yeah, but the weather where you are is probably amazing.
So I'll go first to give you a minute to
think of yours, and I'm going to share. Charity Navigator
is a website where you can like So we're recording
this a little ahead of schedule, and there's been a
lot of weather disaster recently, and I was like wanting
to donate, yeah, but I wanted to make sure I
was donating to something that like seemed like a good,
(38:07):
well run organization. It was going to go to the
right people and stuff. So Charity Navigator you can actually
search by cause, so if you wanted to donate for
even like a certain storm or certain whatever, it'll give
you all the charities that are linked to that with
like ratings and information about them and that kind of thing,
and then you can actually donate, like through their platform,
but it still goes directly to the charity.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
So yeah, wow, I love that, Like, how do I
beat that?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
No?
Speaker 4 (38:30):
A lot of times about my favorite water bottle.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Don't worry. Last week it was like Emily in Paris,
So yeah, not always it's it's we Are. This is
just a mixed bag, but that just happened to be
useful for me this week, so I love it.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
Yeah, I'm trying to think there are so many things
I've been loving and paying attention to. I mean, I
recently rewatched the documentary The Minimalists, which yeah, is just
always kind of a good refresher for me. They you know,
it's the Too minimal Lists, who many people are familiar with,
and they have a podcast, but their documentary is quite
(39:04):
old but really not outdated, and they interview a lot
of people who are doing life differently, who are taking
the path less traveled of like living in an airstream
trailer or living in a tree house, and some of
it's quite extreme, but it really paints a picture of
like how our consumption has gotten out of hand and
(39:26):
a real actionable antidote and that. And I also love
watching Tiny House Nation, which is also like kind of
an outdated resource, but I just go back to it
again and again, and whenever I watch it, I feel
so inspired to declutter, even like another layer deeper, and
it really shows all of these different people motivated by
(39:49):
simplifying their life, saving money, living with more freedom and autonomy.
So those are two things that I suggest and I.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Personally just go back to again and again for kind
of like a little boost of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I love both of those, like cause it's not even
necessarily like I'm going to live in a tiny house,
but it makes you realize that all the things we
take for granted as normal, like how many of them
are not actually necessary? So I think I watch that.
I think that's great. I love that idea.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Yeah, I also just did on my substack today so
readers can find it. I literally did an inventory of
every single thing I own in my house. That's fun,
which is like a little bit insane, but I always
have people saying, you know, like well, how many clothes.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Do you have? And how many books do you have?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Like as a minimalist, people are so curious about it,
and especially because I'm a mom and I have teenagers
and I have a husband and we have a dog.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
So that is a resource that I will share too.
That's on my substack.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
You can if you like knowing things like how many
things people own. I literally detail every single thing that
I own, And the comments section is pretty fascinating too,
with other people responding about what they own and how
different it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That is awesome. I think we probably have twelve hair
brushes in my house. All right. Well, on that note,
I am not winning the minimalist, but I'm super inspired. Shira.
This was a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Well we were back. That was great.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Sarah interviewing Shira Gill, author of the brand new book Lifestyle. So, Sarah,
here's our question for the week. Where do you put
tasks that you want to do soon but you don't
know the specific timeframe yet.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah. I've been obsessed with task management recently because I
feel like everyone has their own system for this, or
they like think there shouldn't be a system. I don't know.
There's just so many hot takes on this, and yet
I feel like whatever I'm doing works really well. So
I want to share that in the way that I
cannot to say that there's only one way of doing it.
But for anything that is soonish, I have the fairly
(41:54):
low friction method of pulling out my planner picking a week,
maybe not this week, but like maybe next week if
it looks kind I'm okay, or maybe the week after
that if it looks kind of okay, and just writing
it down on the column on the left hand side,
so it's like assigned to the week. It's not getting
a specific calendar slot. It's just like, eh, this week,
this should be a priority, so that when I go
to planning to day that week, that will be one
(42:14):
of the options to get it done, and that way
I know I won't forget it. This wasn't asked in
the question. But if it's more like something very very
important or a constrained timeframe, then I'm more likely to
actually just put it on a specific day and give
it its own schedule item.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, I just choose a random date right like when
I think I will get to it, and then when
I come to that in my calendar as part of
my planning, so I'm looking at it like a week
or two before I will see it, and then I
can make a decision like am I actually going to
choose that as a priority for the next week, or
am I going to punt it forward to another future date,
(42:50):
you know, another week or two in the future, another
three months in the future, if it's not urgent, you know,
who knows. But the upside, you can choose a date
for something, even if you're not planning on doing it
on that date, as long as you have a system
where you will see it, right, yes, And that is
the key part, Like you have to make sure that
you have a system you will trust that you.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Won't lose that thing.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
So I've been doing this for like a book I
want to read that the author hasn't gotten out yet,
Like I want to read it when it comes out,
but I keep like punting it forward another six months
to check, like has this stupid book been released yet?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Because I'm it's obscure enough that I.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Don't know that I will see it like in regular
media that I consume.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
So you know, I just like six months I come
up with it. I'm like, huh, look is it out?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Nope, not out do another six months in the future,
but you know, I haven't forgotten about it yet without
it taking up too much mental space.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It's kind of like checking in on the dentist or something.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
A benefit of doing it your way is that is
actually more a minimal to about how most digital systems work.
So like in Google calendar, you can't flip forward and
assign something to a week, but you actually can assign
it to a day, so people who are digital only
might really love Laura's method as well, even though she
does it, I think on paper.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, And because it's on paper, I just put it
on that calendar page which has a whole week. So
sometimes I will put it on the Monday of the week,
like we actually write it on the Monday. But sometimes
I'll just put it across the top because I'll see
it either way, and then the Friday before or two
fridays before to pick because I usually look forward just
a week or.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Two, I will see it.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
And because I know I will see it, I can
then make a decision at that point.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
But yeah, figuring out how to send notes to.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Your future self is like a key part of time
management and planning because there's so many things that the
obvious trigger for you to think about them is not
a useful trigger. Like if you want tulips in your
yard in April, you need to plant them in the fall,
like the bulbs need to get planted in the fall.
(44:51):
And so people think about this in April when they say, oh,
look at my neighbor's pretty tulips, right, that does nothing for.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
You because you can do nothing about it at that moment.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
But you can put a note on a page in
October in your planner, or put choose any date in
October in your digital calendar and say plant bulbs, and
then when you get to October you will see that
and you can either put it on your priority list
for that week for another week. You could not do it.
You can decide you don't actually care. You'll be happy
(45:20):
to be the yard without the tulips come April. But
at least you're not going to not do it because
the obvious trigger wasn't the right one.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
So simple and so effective and yeah, I just love it.
It's like, don't lose it, don't lose it?
Speaker 3 (45:38):
All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
We've been talking about getting more organizing, styling our life
with Shira Gil. We will be back next week with
more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
Hi. I'm Laura Vanderkamp. I'm a mother of five, an author, journalist,
and speaker.
Speaker 2 (00:15):
And I'm Sarah hart Hunger, a mother of three, practicing physician, writer,
and course creator. We are two working parents who love
our careers and our families.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
Welcome to best of both worlds. Here we talk about
how real women manage work, family, and time for fun.
From figuring out childcare to mapping out long.
Speaker 3 (00:33):
Term career goals.
Speaker 1 (00:34):
We want you to get the most out of life.
Speaker 3 (00:41):
Welcome to best of both worlds. This is Laura.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
This episode is airing in early December of twenty twenty four.
Sarah is going to be interviewing Shira Gill, who is
the author of the new book Lifestyled. People may know
her from various minimalist writings over the years. They will
talk about all things organizing and style, et cetera. Sarah,
what are your thoughts on organizing currently?
Speaker 2 (01:06):
I love talking about organizing. I love reading things about organizing.
I love thinking about what my house would be like
if it was organized. I do not actually like organizing.
And that was preps.
Speaker 1 (01:19):
I mean, we said we were going to talk too
much in any of our episodes about our goals for
the past year or the upcoming year, because we have
episodes devoted to those things. But I seem to recall
that organizing the house may have been a goal for
you this year.
Speaker 3 (01:30):
Did that happen?
Speaker 2 (01:31):
It's been a goal for many years, and you know
this was a year I did a lot of things
that were goals for many years, like a lot of
things that have been lingering one hundred dreams lists and have.
Speaker 3 (01:40):
Happened, but not that, not that one.
Speaker 1 (01:45):
So I know, sorry, you maybe trying to reframe your
thinking about this topic.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
I just might be getting closer to outsourcing some of it.
I do actually still want to have a home that
has less clutter in it and more the things that
we actually use and reclaim some of our space that
is taken up by piles of who knows what. And
I don't currently have space in my life to like
(02:12):
make this happen on a regular basis. So I am
at least becoming more realistic about it. But I still
love interviews like Shira because she makes me maybe realize
how like maybe I don't have to think of it
as so big, Like maybe there are some things I
could do that would get me eighty percent of the
way there. That would be almost like eighty twenty twenty
percent of the work, eighty percent of the bet of it.
Speaker 1 (02:32):
And Annabel does some of this right, like justin she
liked doing some organizing things. Maybe she could be your
little helper on this.
Speaker 2 (02:38):
I mean, I actually think there could be a role
for her, like formally taking some of this on as
like you know, like I'm not employing my child, but
you know what I mean, like rewarding her for some
of her efforts. And I think she would enjoy it
and it would be like a valuable skill set and
maybe even would be fun for her to like read
one of these books or take a video course on
organizing or something like that and get her really in it.
(03:00):
By the way, this is not like gender specific, but
there's like zero chance that either of my other two
children are going to have this proclivity. So it just
happens to be her. But yeah, I mean, maybe that
will be part of the answer. She's busy too, Yeah, well,
I mean that was certainly for us.
Speaker 3 (03:17):
I mean, we had boxes in the.
Speaker 1 (03:19):
Hallway for a long time and then we hired somebody
to get rid of them, and now we don't have
any boxes. And it's good because once a lot of
the initial stuff was done, like nobody's going to leave
something on the floor and the upstairs hallway at this
point because it's clean, like there's nothing on the floor.
Like when there were boxes, stuff was getting left there
left and right, because it's like once there's boxes, it's
(03:41):
a free for all, right, like it's you know, piles
of stuff attract more stuff. But now that space has
been clear for a year plus and it's really lovely.
I like to have that be the case. You know,
my kids' rooms, so it's constant work in progress because
they outgrow stuff, they get new stuff, so it's not
(04:02):
like you can just do it and forget it forever.
And so I think that's one issue people run into
with this. It's like it's going to be more ongoing
than I think some people are entirely prepared for. But
so it goes.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
Yeah, it's an organizing cycle, not an organizing project.
Speaker 3 (04:20):
Yes, a cycle. I think that's good to say.
Speaker 1 (04:22):
But we'll hear what Shira has to say about organizing
our homes, our lives, everything else.
Speaker 3 (04:27):
So here we go.
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Well, I am so excited to welcome Shira Gil to
the show. She is an organizing expert and author. She's
about to have her third book out in the world,
but her first two were Minimalista and Organized Living, and
we're going to talk all things organizing, home stuff, maybe
simplicity beyond that. Welcome to the show, Shira.
Speaker 4 (04:49):
Thank you. I'm so excited to have this conversation.
Speaker 2 (04:52):
Me too. I love the concept of minimalism. I aspire
to it, and I'm absolutely not there. I'm like going
to be taking notes.
Speaker 4 (05:02):
Right, Okay, let's go.
Speaker 2 (05:04):
So I guess start with that. How did you get
interested in the concept of minimalism and how do you
even jibe that with like the typical modern American experience
of a lot that many of us have kind of naturally,
especially if we have jobs and kids and all of
the things.
Speaker 5 (05:22):
Yeah, I mean, the pressure to consume is truly everywhere.
I think it's in social media, it's and movies and TV.
It's the advertisements were fed, It's the whole culture that
we live in our Western world is like buy more
and you'll be happier. So I was raised by hippies,
New York hippies, so a different breed of hippie I'm
(05:43):
in California now, but my parents both were kind of
intellectuals who had a real I wouldn't say a minimalist philosophy,
but they were anti consumerism, and so when they raised me,
I also think it was a different time. I was
born in the seventies and there wasn't this like you
have to get the best nicest stroller and the five
(06:05):
baby swings. It was.
Speaker 4 (06:07):
It was a simpler time from what I hear from them.
So I did grow up with that foundation, but I
was a little different because I always loved pretty things.
I loved clothes.
Speaker 5 (06:20):
I was really interested in design and interiors and styling.
So there was sort of a push pull, you know,
from the time I was little where it was like
my parents were teaching me experiences over things things don't matter,
and I felt deeply that I agreed, But I also
liked pretty things, and so I think I kind of
unknowingly created my own minimalist philosophy, which was rooted in
(06:44):
defining just the right amount of stuff for me, So
kind of defining like what is the intentional right amount
of stuff for me and my lifestyle and personality and values,
but without any of the clutter any of the excess,
and so I just that was some I just sort
of I didn't even realize it was a practice or
a philosophy. I just knew that clutter bothered me, and
(07:07):
I liked my room to feel a certain way. And
my parents divorced when I was very young, so I
went back and forth every other day from house to house.
I had to drag stuff with me back and forth,
and so I think because of my upbringing, stuff became
sort of this oppressive thing, and I just felt like
I always wanted less stuff to manage, less stuff to
(07:27):
drag around, and that less, to me equal freedom. So
very different from the messages that I think were constantly fed,
which is like more is better, More is going to
make you feel pretty and successful and like you can
keep up with everybody.
Speaker 4 (07:41):
I was always having this.
Speaker 5 (07:43):
Pull in the opposite direction towards less means more travel,
more fun, more freedom, more ease. And that's something I
really had my big light buel moment when I had
my daughters.
Speaker 4 (07:58):
And so I'm now the mother of two teen girls,
but when they were born is really when.
Speaker 5 (08:03):
I started my business, because I made a decision I
want to be a minimalist mom, and I didn't see
many examples of that in real life, and so I
kind of made it my own personal challenge to resist
the noise and resist the pressure and resist all the
people telling me that I needed the latest this and
(08:25):
that and this gadget and that gadget. And I really
focused on experiences over things with how I raised my kids,
and my business kind of took off from there.
Speaker 2 (08:37):
Oh my gosh. I have so many questions. But the
first thing I'm super curious about, and I know our
listeners are too, is what does a minimalist mom look like.
I'm interested in the various stages like coller mom versus
teen mom, Like how yeah, Like, give me some examples.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
Well, it's a challenge.
Speaker 5 (08:57):
First of all, I'll admit that I think my philosophy
started when I was registering for my baby shower and
I went to the store it's I think it's out
of business now, but it was called Giggle, and it
was like all the beautiful baby things, and they presented
me with like a twenty five page list of everything
that I needed to be a mom. And at the time,
(09:18):
I didn't have any close girlfriends. I don't have a
sister who had kids, so I had no frame of reference,
and my mom, I remember, just kind of got very
snarky with the saleswoman and was like, you know, all
a baby needs to be happy is food and something
to sleep in. And I was like, okay, there's got
to be something in between. So I think for me,
(09:42):
you know, the way that I defined it for myself
was I want just enough without the excess. And that
volume is different for every person. You know, having now
coached hundreds and thousands of people virtually around the world,
it varies so greatly by who you are, what your
care is, what your climate is, what your job is.
(10:02):
For me, I live in the San Francisco Bay Area.
Our weather is always lovely. We don't have real seasons,
and so I kind of just thought, like, Okay, if
I do laundry once a week, how many outfits do
I need for this baby? How many socks and how
many blankets do I really need? And I just kind
(10:24):
of guesstimated on like what would be enough to be
a mom and do all the practical things like feed
my baby and have my baby be safe and warm
without a million trinkets. And I had also been a
preschool teacher, in a former life, and so I had
seen the kids you know that I worked with were three,
(10:45):
four and five, like they would just play for hours
with a cardboard box and like invent a whole society
and like community, and so I really realized kids don't
need much, and in fact, they thrive and they're more
creative when they have less stuff.
Speaker 4 (11:01):
So I really limited like the toys and the gizmos.
Speaker 5 (11:04):
And the gadgets, and instead I just hit the streets
and I was out every day taking walks with my
kids and taking them to museums and ice cream and
I really my model in my head was like I
want our house to be a place that is filled
with like ease and calm and facilitates rest, and then
all the fun stuff is kind of out of the
(11:26):
house in the city, like that's our playground and that's
our playroom. And we didn't have a big house, so
we didn't even have a playroom, and our kids for
many years shared.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
A small room. So I was like, I want to
give them the most fun childhood.
Speaker 5 (11:41):
But in my mind that just didn't have any real
connection to stuff.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
So so interesting, we're going to take a quick break
and then maybe we'll talk a little bit about kind
of how that looks in a little bit older kids.
So yeah, sup, were interesting? Great, all right, we are back.
(12:09):
So I'm picturing only like a few toys, if any,
which actually does lower the burdens significantly on cleaning up
those toys. So I kind of get where this is going.
And that makes a lot of sense to me. What
would a more minimalist lifestyle or space look like for
like a school aged family.
Speaker 5 (12:26):
Yeah, and I will say, I mean my kids had
toys that they were not living like an austere lifestyle
full of deprivation. It was just limited, right, Like we
would have like three big baskets in our living room
and it was like those baskets were the capacity of
the toys that we had. And so I'm big into
limits and boundaries as a professional organizer. I think that's
(12:48):
the key to the universe. So as I mean, I
will say, like when my kids were two and four,
that was peak stuff and there was no way around it,
Like there were things that we needed. We needed this
stroller and the baby carrier and the multiple car seats.
Like I hated it, but it was just the reality.
(13:08):
As they got older, my kids were both prolific artists,
and the art volume was insane, and so we actually
put up a magnet wall in our kitchen so that
they had kind of a gallery to display their favorite art.
And so I would say, like, do as much art
as you want, but then you have to kind of
(13:29):
pick and curate like what goes up on the art wall.
So again it's like those creative freedom but then limits.
And I in my organizing work and in my own home,
I always had kind of a rule of five for kids,
like no more than five broad categories out at a time.
Speaker 4 (13:46):
And that doesn't mean doing five things at the same time.
Speaker 5 (13:49):
It means like we're only going to visually see five
categories of stuff in the house. So that could be
like books, art, puzzles, and games like goes and a
play kitchen.
Speaker 4 (14:02):
And what I found in organizing other people's homes.
Speaker 5 (14:04):
Is most people had like twenty five categories of stuff,
and they were overwhelmed, their kids were drowning, nobody could
make decisions or clean up, and so my goal was
always like make play really easy and make clean up
really easy. And so that kind of all through the
elementary school years was like five categories of stuff if
(14:25):
they get bored of one thing, they can trade it
in for another thing. If they're like we no longer
like lego, Okay, we're going to sell or donate the Lego.
We can replace it with one thing, but we're not
just adding more and more forever. And now that they're teenagers,
it's been kind of fascinating because all they want is
a device and to hang out with their friends, and
(14:46):
they have no It's like the stuffies are out.
Speaker 4 (14:49):
They're not interested in even board games, which is kind
of sad for me.
Speaker 5 (14:53):
But I will say to any parents who feel like
they're totally drowning, it gets so much easier. Like I
feel like one day we just woke up and our
kids were like, yeah, don't need this, don't need this,
Like just need my phone and my friends.
Speaker 4 (15:06):
So that's been a big ship.
Speaker 2 (15:07):
Have you seen my twelve year old's cosmetic collection? Though,
I mean, I'm just kidding. That's the one area because
I'm thinking to myself, like, where are we still having
stuff problems? I'm like, oh, yes, it's the uh, the.
Speaker 4 (15:18):
Recipe and the bubble and I know we all share
one bathroom and it used to be so curated and
lovely with like one shampoo and one conditioner and one
body wash. It Now I'm like, what are all of
these bath bobs and face masks and skin scrubs. Yeah, so,
I mean the struggle is real.
Speaker 3 (15:37):
I love it.
Speaker 2 (15:37):
I love it. But no, that's super interesting, and it's true,
like the volume of stuff is naturally going to ebb
and flow with their phases, and it's nice for listeners
with younger kids to perhaps hear that it is going
to get a little bit.
Speaker 4 (15:50):
Better, it gets a lot easier.
Speaker 2 (15:53):
Yeah, let's talk about I was living through your new
book and one you know, you talk about like automation
and sort of solving problem in the home, and I
think that one that is super super common for people
with younger kids and school age kids is when you
get home and everyone has their backpack and their lunch
and like blah blah blah, and like everyone's tired. But
(16:14):
your book has some ideas and solutions for like making
this less of a thing and perhaps even making your
house less of a disaster in dealing with those things.
So yeah, I know I'm not alone. Can you chat with.
Speaker 4 (16:26):
Them or no?
Speaker 5 (16:28):
I think that entry I mean when I'm in a
house and people are overwhelmed. I always start with the
entry because I feel like if you can lock in
good systems for your entry and really curb the clutter
from coming through the front door and kind of leaking
all over your house, you're going to have a leg up.
So what I always think is clutter is information. So
(16:50):
I don't judge clutter. I'm interested in clutter. What is it,
why is it here? What does it tell us? And
so with an entry, it's really interesting to just look
at kind of the audit of your clutter in your entry,
what gets dumped and is it getting dumped because there
is no system?
Speaker 4 (17:07):
That's the first thing.
Speaker 5 (17:08):
Is it getting dumped because people just aren't taking it
to where it needs to go? And then it's a
habit problem and not a system problem. But usually I'll
just do an audit and I'll say to people like,
do you have an easy place for your kids to
drop backpacks when they get home from school?
Speaker 4 (17:25):
Like is there a hook at arms reach?
Speaker 5 (17:27):
It's shocking how many people will realize like, oh my gosh,
we don't, or like our kids can't reach it, and
that's why they're just dumping it on the floor. So
I like to get kids super involved, and I like
to say to them like, Okay, you're walking through the
front door, where would you want to put your bag,
and like show me where you can reach, and let's
put a hook right there, and like have them actually
(17:48):
stand with their arm out and their backpack and put
a hook in right where they can see it so
they have some buy in, like this is a system
I'm a part of.
Speaker 4 (17:56):
Likewise, with like a jacket, I usually like.
Speaker 5 (17:59):
To do a really sturdy double hook that can have
a jacket and a backpack. Just like school where kids
are used to having like a cubby or a locker
or some sort of system.
Speaker 4 (18:10):
You just want to replicate that in your home.
Speaker 5 (18:12):
So it's like you come in, first thing you see
is a hook for your drop station. Many people are
shoe off houses and they have just this mountain of
shoes by the front door. I like to really limit
that to one or two pairs per family member and
store the majority of.
Speaker 4 (18:30):
The shoes back in their closets.
Speaker 5 (18:34):
In our house, we're in a house that's about one
hundred and twenty years old, and so we don't have
an entry closet.
Speaker 4 (18:40):
There's no mudroom, there's no system.
Speaker 5 (18:42):
You walk right into our home and you're in the
living room, so I am walking the walk here, like
I have put up hooks.
Speaker 4 (18:49):
I made sort of a makeshift.
Speaker 5 (18:51):
Cabinet, and it is literally as simple as some hooks
for the jackets, the backpacks, the dog leash, and some
cubbies or even just basket to drop your shoes.
Speaker 4 (19:01):
And the last thing is a place for mail bills,
kid art, like where do the paper piles go? So
I personally like to make it as simple as possible.
Speaker 5 (19:11):
I just have a massive, pretty basket in my living
room kind of blends in with the decor. Everybody knows
if they want me to look at anything, review anything,
sign anything, pay anything, it gets dumped in that basket.
Meaning if they dump it on the counter, it's not
going to be dealt with. It's going to be thrown away.
So having those clear rules like with your family of
(19:35):
put it in the inbox, that's what I call it
in my house. It's like that's the holy grail of
family management, is have one place where anything that needs
your attention can go, and then you just have to
show up and review it like once a week or so.
Speaker 2 (19:50):
I like the massive inbox idea because it solves the
problems of like multiple piles all over the place. Plus
if you're processing it, it makes it very easy to
be like, Okay, every Friday, I empty the inbox or
whatever your day of choices and as usual, like it's
physically getting emptied. It's like we're going back to like
David Allen put your tests on a list of pieces
of paper and throw them in a thing or something
(20:12):
like that.
Speaker 5 (20:12):
Yeah exactly. I like, yeah, you've got to have a
date with your inbox. And I think so many people
over organize. So a lot of my clients are like, well,
here's where I put bills, and here's where I put
things that need to be filed, and here's where I
put my kid.
Speaker 4 (20:26):
And I'm like, no, it's all to dos.
Speaker 5 (20:28):
So centralize your to dos would be a tip. I
would say, just make it easy. Have them in one place.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Yeah, anything that has a physical manifestation. I like, exactly,
how do you contend? Like, let's say you're trying, actually
I have We'll have two step of questions. Let's start
with the easier one. Let's say you're trying to help
your family have less stuff over all, but you have
some younger family members or maybe even a partner with
very different tendencies.
Speaker 3 (20:56):
Yes, where do.
Speaker 2 (20:57):
You kind of like draw the line or is that
something where you're just like, I can't worry about them.
I don't know. How have you handled that?
Speaker 5 (21:03):
Yeah, it's I think that's my most common question and
struggle for people is everybody has a different clutter threshold.
Speaker 4 (21:11):
That's what I call it.
Speaker 5 (21:12):
Like some people are truly unphased by clutter or piles,
they don't find them irritating or distracting. And some people
feel like they can't focus or have peace of mind
if they're surrounded by laundry and dishes and piles. So
the first thing, and I will say, like when I
married my husband, he was a total slob. He dumped
(21:33):
stuff everywhere. There were no systems, there were no boundaries.
And my kids are not They do not define themselves
as minimalists. So I am the minimalist in our home
right and I have very clear thoughts about how things
should be, and my family members have very different thoughts
and they're all valid.
Speaker 4 (21:50):
So what to do about it? So a few things?
Speaker 5 (21:54):
I think Number one is, if you are the person
who craves order and tidiness, you've got to take responsibility
for that by managing your own stuff and modeling first.
And so before you even talk to family members about
their stuff. I would challenge listeners to edit, organize, and
(22:16):
systematize every single thing they own without saying a word.
And I did that in my own home and life,
and there is kind of a process of osmosis where
your family members they're not bugged, they're not attacked, but
they do see things shifting, they see your habits shifting.
Speaker 4 (22:34):
That's step one.
Speaker 5 (22:35):
And it's hard, right because it's so easy to fingerpoint
and be like, well, my husband is dumping these things
and the teenagers you know, everywhere. But step one is
deal with your own stuff first. So until you have
thoroughly edited and organized and systematized everything you own, so
your mementos and sentimental stuff, all of your clothes, all
(22:56):
of your paperwork, all of your books, don't even talk to.
Speaker 4 (23:00):
Them once you have done that.
Speaker 5 (23:03):
What I find it really helpful to do is kind
of have a family meeting and for the common areas
in the house, define like what are the terms that
we're comfortable with for the house, and what are the
terms for our individual spaces.
Speaker 4 (23:17):
So my need is stronger than anyone else's need.
Speaker 5 (23:20):
Right, So the deal that I got my family to
agree to is and we have a small house too,
so we're all on top of each other. So living room,
dining room, kitchen has a real standard where it's like
these spaces are going to be clean and minimal and
dialed in. We're not going to dump stuff, We're going
to clean up every night, like dishes go away before we.
Speaker 4 (23:41):
Go to bed.
Speaker 5 (23:42):
No piles for my girl's respective rooms. They get to
own what they want. They have their own money now,
they can buy things, they get presents. They don't have
to make their bed perfectly, they don't have to fold
their clothes perfectly. That's their domain and they can have
that freedom as long as they maintain the.
Speaker 4 (24:00):
Rest of the house. Likewise, during COVID, we actually built
like a studio and office.
Speaker 5 (24:07):
In our back for my husband. He has ADHD, he
has stuff everywhere. He doesn't have systems. He has a
whole different process and system for how he works than
I do. And so that has been like a game
changer for both of us because I am often working
in our dining room and so I need like calm
(24:28):
and quiet and peace of mind. And he's fine with
like three monitors and paper everywhere and coffee mugs everywhere,
So giving everybody their own slice of real estate, but
then kind of defining how can we cooperate for those
common spaces.
Speaker 4 (24:45):
I have found to be the best solution.
Speaker 2 (24:46):
I think that makes sense just from a mental health standpoint.
It's like, Okay, that is their domain, and as long
as we're not like having an infestation or something like that,
then it's fine. Yeah.
Speaker 4 (24:57):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (24:57):
The one other thing I'll say is finding motivation and
buy in. Like if you're the person who wants to
be more minimal or more organized, I will say to
my kids, like, listen, I know this isn't your thing,
but if her house is like easy and we don't
have to clean up all the time, you can have
friends over whenever you want.
Speaker 4 (25:14):
You can have sleepovers whenever you want. You can have
movie parties.
Speaker 5 (25:17):
So they've seen the benefits of having a minimal home.
Is we have an open door policy. Like our house
is the house that all the teenagers hang out at.
We host sleepovers all the time. We used to be
part of a babysitting co op.
Speaker 4 (25:29):
We'd have twenty kids running around eating popcorn so our
house is fun because it's minimal, and I think that's
not something you hear.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
Super interesting and I get that, like there's more space,
it's not like if you don't have a thousand toys
to wreck everywhere, then cleanup is always going to be easier.
And that's super interesting how it's benefitted socially. Well, we're
going to take another quick break and then I'm going
to ask you about home makeovers. I guess great. All right,
(26:09):
we're back and we are airing this closer to the
new year. And so I know, I personally have set
goals related to organizing my home many many a time,
and often have ended up finding it much more difficult
than I thought or quit somewhere in that process. But
I know that one of your strengths is really motivating people.
(26:31):
I get that from the pages of your book. I
read Organized Living, and I'm like, this is so like
aspirational and motivating. So what would you say to someone
who is embarking on a project like that? And do
you have any suggested way of going about it if
you're sort of in a starting from scratch kind of place,
And even though I know your work goes beyond this, yeah,
more focusing on the home space aspect.
Speaker 4 (26:51):
Sure.
Speaker 5 (26:52):
So I think one of the biggest mistakes I see
people make when trying to organize their whole home is
trying to organize their whole home at once. And that
really is so common because we get excited and motivated
and it's like, all right, I'm ready to deal with this,
and then what commonly happens is people just kind of
run from room to room, like straightening a little thing here,
(27:14):
organizing a little thing there, and they never really see
massive transformation or impact. So my number one rule is
you must start small and specific. So if you feel
like you want to organize and declutter your entire home,
what I would do is I would make a list
of every room in your house or every space, so
it could be like your entry, closet, living dining, kitchen, bedrooms, bathroom,
(27:37):
storage areas. Then I would rank them in order. And
people are always like, where do I start? If you
don't know where to start with either your entry or
your bedroom. I say this because the entry we already
went over. It's just a high traffic zone, high impact
for organizing.
Speaker 4 (27:54):
Your bedroom is where you end your day and start
your day, and it often does not feel like a
spa or a zen like place, and I think it's a.
Speaker 5 (28:05):
Lower impact project. Like I would say the kitchen is
the highest impact. There's just the most stuff, the most zones,
the most going on there. So if you really don't
know where to start and you can't figure out, I
would say entry and then bedroom. But you want to
make that list and then you just want to focus
one space at a time and kind of have like
(28:28):
tunnel vision where even if everything feels chaotic, you're saying
to your brain, it's okay, brain, we have a list,
we've made a plan.
Speaker 4 (28:37):
We're going to go in order. We're going to tackle everything.
Speaker 5 (28:39):
But right now we're only doing the entry and we're
not touching any other space or any other project until
the entry is edited, organized and styled. So when I
work with clients, that's really the first thing I do
is I'm like, Okay, what are all the spaces, Let's
rank them in order, and then we just go one, two, three, four, five, six,
(29:00):
So that really helps people. I also would say having
easy places to donate. One of the things that really
trips people up is Okay, I've decluttered, but now I
just have like my bags of stuff everywhere, and you
have to have an easy way to get that out
the front door. So even as simple as just saying like, Okay,
(29:21):
where is my most easy, convenient drop off point for
household goods? Do I have a place for harder to
donate things like electronics or paint or hazardous waste? Like
doing half an hour of research and having your drop
stations ready so that once you've hit one space, I
(29:42):
would say, as soon as that entry is decluttered and organized,
you do your trash donate, recycle run, and now it's
time to move on to the next space, so it
really feels complete.
Speaker 2 (29:54):
I think that's been a struggle for me, the oh
I'm going to donate it, and then I have a
pile and like, I mean my case, we have a
large garage, so there's no reason it couldn't go in there.
But I like your idea of like making it easy
and like having a category set up ahead of time,
like this stuff goes there, this stuff goes there's automated.
Speaker 5 (30:12):
Yes, and use your kids if you have kids, they're
always my runners. So I'll drive to all the drop
up places and be like okay, like take this bag
and go drop it off and come back and then
I'm just the chauffeur. And I think it's also good
to model for your family, like the letting go process,
the donating responsibly. But yeah, make sure you have a
plan to get this stuff out. And the other thing
(30:34):
I would say that people usually don't slow down enough
to think about is your why.
Speaker 4 (30:39):
Why are you decluttering?
Speaker 5 (30:40):
Why are you wanting to get organized or make a
change in your home? That is where I always start,
and it really is the most important step, because if
you don't have a why, you're not going to stay motivated,
You're not going to stay energized, and you're just going
to be moving piles around. If you have a clear
and motivating why, like I want to save money to
(31:01):
save for a trip, or I'm so exhausted from losing things,
I want to improve my quality of life, You've got
to have something that keeps you energized throughout the process.
Speaker 2 (31:13):
I like that you can put it on your phone
background screen motivate or something like that.
Speaker 4 (31:18):
I love that.
Speaker 2 (31:19):
And you know something really interesting that I hadn't heard,
which was edit and then something and then style. Can
you go through those edit organized? Is?
Speaker 4 (31:29):
Yeah?
Speaker 5 (31:29):
So the process I outline in my first book, Minimalista.
It's a five step process. You can apply it to
any space including your junk drawer, your basement, anything.
Speaker 4 (31:38):
So step one is clarify why are you doing this?
What are your goals?
Speaker 5 (31:42):
Step two is edit. That's always what you want to
do before you organize. Is you want to let go
of the clutter, let go of the things that are
not serving you. Then organize, which I make organization very
very simple. It is grouping similar things together and every
category has a home.
Speaker 4 (32:00):
And then elevate, which.
Speaker 5 (32:02):
That's what I call kind of like the cherry on top,
which is I want to now invest in beautiful drawer
liners or matching hangers for my closet, or beautiful baskets
for the laundry room. So elevating is kind of the
fun part for people, and I have put it intentionally
at the end because it's the reward and you don't
(32:22):
want to try to elevate before you've edited and organized.
Speaker 4 (32:25):
It doesn't make any sense. And the last step is maintained.
Speaker 5 (32:28):
So because life isn't static, kids are growing out of things,
gifts are coming in. You've got to have systems in place,
like even as simple as a donation bag in your entry,
your mudroom, or in the closets, having a one in
one out process, doing a seasonal cleanse before holidays or
(32:49):
birthdays so that you can kind of maintain that balance
that you've achieved.
Speaker 2 (32:55):
Awesome, I love it. I'm feeling more motivated already.
Speaker 4 (32:58):
Oh good.
Speaker 2 (33:00):
I want to tell listeners Shira's Organized Living book is
amazing and now I'm super excited to get my hands
on the first one. But her third one is coming out,
and I wanted to give her a chance. So that
one is like, it's like a lot of these principles
but applied very broadly. Is that right correct?
Speaker 4 (33:19):
Yeah? So what happened is so minimalista.
Speaker 5 (33:21):
My first book really breaks down my entire toolkit for
how to edit, organize, and style every room in your house.
And when I finished that book, I've been an organizer
for fifteen years. So I have all of these friends
who were organizers, and whenever I would go to their homes,
I would be really nosy and I would say like, oh,
can I see how you organize under your kitchen sink
(33:42):
or in your medicine cabinet?
Speaker 4 (33:43):
And I would always come away with.
Speaker 5 (33:45):
These new, fresh ideas and inspiration, because every organizer is different.
So my second book, which was really the experience of
a lifetime, I got to travel around the world interviewing
twenty five of the top organizings in the world and
touring their homes.
Speaker 4 (34:02):
And through this process of.
Speaker 5 (34:06):
Learning the systems and the habits and the methods of
twenty five very different organizers, from minimalists to maximalist people
that focus just on paper, or just on pantry, or
just on closet. I had this epiphany towards the end
of writing that book where I realized all of the organizers,
including myself, had three things in common, and the three
(34:28):
steps were volume, systems and habits. And so I started thinking, Okay,
if we can apply this to any home, like automating
systems implementing good habits to create a home that functions.
What if we took those same things volume systems and
(34:49):
habits and applied it to our life. And so my
third book, Lifestyled, which is coming out very soon, basically
takes this and applies it to things like your schedule,
your relationships, your finances, your health and wellness, your community service.
(35:09):
Like I really tested this in my own life and
found it to be hugely helpful. I'm a person where
it's really easy for me kind of effortlessly to edit
and organize my home, but my life was feeling very
full and overstuffed and chaotic, and everybody that I talked
to was likewise feeling like they were drowning with the
(35:31):
endless to dos and the responsibilities and so much kind
of clamoring for their attention. So in this book, what
I really dive into is how do you create a
more intentional life.
Speaker 4 (35:43):
How do you make the tough cuts the edits not
just your home but your life.
Speaker 5 (35:49):
How do you learn how to set boundaries and say
no and clarify what your biggest yeses are? And how
do you figure out how to create this volume system's
framework in every part of your life. So I apply
it to finances. I talk about how I run a
minimalist business. So I've applied all of these tips that
(36:12):
I've outlined for the home to business, to finances to relationships,
like how do you cut the relationship clutter? It's hard
to edit friends, but it's important right to decide who
are the people that are really worthy of my time
and my energy and my attention Because that's precious, Like
our most precious resource is our time, and so this
(36:34):
is a book that really gets into this.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
I love the extension and I love the fresh perspective
on some of those topics we love to talk about
all the time anyways, So that's great, super exciting. Yeah, well, Shira,
tell listeners where they can find you and learn more
about you, and remind everybody your book coming out and
the name and everything.
Speaker 4 (36:53):
Yes, absolutely so.
Speaker 5 (36:55):
My website is kind of my hub for all things
including you can sign up for my substack, where I
have subscribers from all over the world and every one
of the fifty States, and we're all kind of simplifying together.
It has my three books, so Minimalista, Organized Living, and
Lifestyled and you can follow me on Instagram at Shira
(37:18):
Gill for tips and inspiration on how to simplify and
streamline home and life.
Speaker 2 (37:24):
Love before we go, and I forgot to warn you
this part, but don't worry, it's not scary, not scary.
We do a Love of the Week every week and
it can be anything, can be a product, can be
like a TV show you just watched. It could be literally,
I mean the weather. I don't care not the weather
where I am, because I'm in South Florida and it's terrible.
Speaker 4 (37:43):
Weather where I am.
Speaker 2 (37:44):
Yeah, but the weather where you are is probably amazing.
So I'll go first to give you a minute to
think of yours, and I'm going to share. Charity Navigator
is a website where you can like So we're recording
this a little ahead of schedule, and there's been a
lot of weather disaster recently, and I was like wanting
to donate, yeah, but I wanted to make sure I
was donating to something that like seemed like a good,
(38:07):
well run organization. It was going to go to the
right people and stuff. So Charity Navigator you can actually
search by cause, so if you wanted to donate for
even like a certain storm or certain whatever, it'll give
you all the charities that are linked to that with
like ratings and information about them and that kind of thing,
and then you can actually donate, like through their platform,
but it still goes directly to the charity.
Speaker 5 (38:24):
So yeah, wow, I love that, Like, how do I
beat that?
Speaker 1 (38:30):
No?
Speaker 4 (38:30):
A lot of times about my favorite water bottle.
Speaker 2 (38:33):
Don't worry. Last week it was like Emily in Paris,
So yeah, not always it's it's we Are. This is
just a mixed bag, but that just happened to be
useful for me this week, so I love it.
Speaker 5 (38:44):
Yeah, I'm trying to think there are so many things
I've been loving and paying attention to. I mean, I
recently rewatched the documentary The Minimalists, which yeah, is just
always kind of a good refresher for me. They you know,
it's the Too minimal Lists, who many people are familiar with,
and they have a podcast, but their documentary is quite
(39:04):
old but really not outdated, and they interview a lot
of people who are doing life differently, who are taking
the path less traveled of like living in an airstream
trailer or living in a tree house, and some of
it's quite extreme, but it really paints a picture of
like how our consumption has gotten out of hand and
(39:26):
a real actionable antidote and that. And I also love
watching Tiny House Nation, which is also like kind of
an outdated resource, but I just go back to it
again and again, and whenever I watch it, I feel
so inspired to declutter, even like another layer deeper, and
it really shows all of these different people motivated by
(39:49):
simplifying their life, saving money, living with more freedom and autonomy.
So those are two things that I suggest and I.
Speaker 4 (39:59):
Personally just go back to again and again for kind
of like a little boost of inspiration.
Speaker 2 (40:03):
I love both of those, like cause it's not even
necessarily like I'm going to live in a tiny house,
but it makes you realize that all the things we
take for granted as normal, like how many of them
are not actually necessary? So I think I watch that.
I think that's great. I love that idea.
Speaker 5 (40:16):
Yeah, I also just did on my substack today so
readers can find it. I literally did an inventory of
every single thing I own in my house. That's fun,
which is like a little bit insane, but I always
have people saying, you know, like well, how many clothes.
Speaker 4 (40:32):
Do you have? And how many books do you have?
Speaker 5 (40:34):
Like as a minimalist, people are so curious about it,
and especially because I'm a mom and I have teenagers
and I have a husband and we have a dog.
Speaker 4 (40:42):
So that is a resource that I will share too.
That's on my substack.
Speaker 5 (40:46):
You can if you like knowing things like how many
things people own. I literally detail every single thing that
I own, And the comments section is pretty fascinating too,
with other people responding about what they own and how
different it.
Speaker 2 (41:02):
That is awesome. I think we probably have twelve hair
brushes in my house. All right. Well, on that note,
I am not winning the minimalist, but I'm super inspired. Shira.
This was a pleasure. Thank you so much for coming on.
Speaker 4 (41:13):
Thanks so much for having me.
Speaker 3 (41:15):
Well we were back. That was great.
Speaker 1 (41:17):
Sarah interviewing Shira Gill, author of the brand new book Lifestyle. So, Sarah,
here's our question for the week. Where do you put
tasks that you want to do soon but you don't
know the specific timeframe yet.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Yeah. I've been obsessed with task management recently because I
feel like everyone has their own system for this, or
they like think there shouldn't be a system. I don't know.
There's just so many hot takes on this, and yet
I feel like whatever I'm doing works really well. So
I want to share that in the way that I
cannot to say that there's only one way of doing it.
But for anything that is soonish, I have the fairly
(41:54):
low friction method of pulling out my planner picking a week,
maybe not this week, but like maybe next week if
it looks kind I'm okay, or maybe the week after
that if it looks kind of okay, and just writing
it down on the column on the left hand side,
so it's like assigned to the week. It's not getting
a specific calendar slot. It's just like, eh, this week,
this should be a priority, so that when I go
to planning to day that week, that will be one
(42:14):
of the options to get it done, and that way
I know I won't forget it. This wasn't asked in
the question. But if it's more like something very very
important or a constrained timeframe, then I'm more likely to
actually just put it on a specific day and give
it its own schedule item.
Speaker 1 (42:28):
Yeah, I just choose a random date right like when
I think I will get to it, and then when
I come to that in my calendar as part of
my planning, so I'm looking at it like a week
or two before I will see it, and then I
can make a decision like am I actually going to
choose that as a priority for the next week, or
am I going to punt it forward to another future date,
(42:50):
you know, another week or two in the future, another
three months in the future, if it's not urgent, you know,
who knows. But the upside, you can choose a date
for something, even if you're not planning on doing it
on that date, as long as you have a system
where you will see it, right, yes, And that is
the key part, Like you have to make sure that
you have a system you will trust that you.
Speaker 3 (43:11):
Won't lose that thing.
Speaker 1 (43:13):
So I've been doing this for like a book I
want to read that the author hasn't gotten out yet,
Like I want to read it when it comes out,
but I keep like punting it forward another six months
to check, like has this stupid book been released yet?
Speaker 2 (43:24):
Because I'm it's obscure enough that I.
Speaker 1 (43:26):
Don't know that I will see it like in regular
media that I consume.
Speaker 3 (43:31):
So you know, I just like six months I come
up with it. I'm like, huh, look is it out?
Speaker 1 (43:35):
Nope, not out do another six months in the future,
but you know, I haven't forgotten about it yet without
it taking up too much mental space.
Speaker 3 (43:42):
It's kind of like checking in on the dentist or something.
Speaker 2 (43:47):
A benefit of doing it your way is that is
actually more a minimal to about how most digital systems work.
So like in Google calendar, you can't flip forward and
assign something to a week, but you actually can assign
it to a day, so people who are digital only
might really love Laura's method as well, even though she
does it, I think on paper.
Speaker 1 (44:04):
Yeah, And because it's on paper, I just put it
on that calendar page which has a whole week. So
sometimes I will put it on the Monday of the week,
like we actually write it on the Monday. But sometimes
I'll just put it across the top because I'll see
it either way, and then the Friday before or two
fridays before to pick because I usually look forward just
a week or.
Speaker 3 (44:21):
Two, I will see it.
Speaker 1 (44:23):
And because I know I will see it, I can
then make a decision at that point.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
But yeah, figuring out how to send notes to.
Speaker 1 (44:31):
Your future self is like a key part of time
management and planning because there's so many things that the
obvious trigger for you to think about them is not
a useful trigger. Like if you want tulips in your
yard in April, you need to plant them in the fall,
like the bulbs need to get planted in the fall.
(44:51):
And so people think about this in April when they say, oh,
look at my neighbor's pretty tulips, right, that does nothing for.
Speaker 3 (44:57):
You because you can do nothing about it at that moment.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
But you can put a note on a page in
October in your planner, or put choose any date in
October in your digital calendar and say plant bulbs, and
then when you get to October you will see that
and you can either put it on your priority list
for that week for another week. You could not do it.
You can decide you don't actually care. You'll be happy
(45:20):
to be the yard without the tulips come April. But
at least you're not going to not do it because
the obvious trigger wasn't the right one.
Speaker 2 (45:29):
So simple and so effective and yeah, I just love it.
It's like, don't lose it, don't lose it?
Speaker 3 (45:38):
All right? Well, this has been best of both worlds.
Speaker 1 (45:40):
We've been talking about getting more organizing, styling our life
with Shira Gil. We will be back next week with
more on making work and life fit together.
Speaker 2 (45:51):
Thanks for listening. You can find me Sarah at the
shoebox dot com or at the Underscore Shoebox on Instagram,
and you.
Speaker 1 (45:59):
Can find me Laura at Laura vandercam dot com. This
has been the best of both worlds podcasts. Please join
us next time for more on making work and life
work together.
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