May 4, 2023 • 13 mins
Jenifer recently had a chance to talk with a woman from Spencer’s past. She offers Jen an interesting perspective on who she thought Spencer was and works through her feelings on who he turned out to be.
We also hear a sneak peek from Betrayal Season 2, premiering on May 18th.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and if you haven't heard yet,
a lot has been happening with the Trial. First, we'll
be back with season two of Betriyals starting May eighteenth.
We even have a sneak peek at the end of
this episode. Second Trial Season one is being turned into
a documentary. More details on when and where it will launch,
so stay tuned on the feed for updates.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Looking back now, I was thinking I was way too
young for us to have a friendship, and as a
married man and me being a single young woman, we
should not have had any kind of relationship or regular relationship.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Jennifer recently had a chance to talk with a woman
from Spencer's past, and she offers an interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So why did you decide to speak with me today?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I have to say that even till today, I did
have some reservations. Part of me feels as though I'm
betraying somebody I've known for twenty something years. But I
did want to speak to you, and I feel I
need to speak to you because I think as females
(01:17):
we are kind of told not to speak up. And
I've had my experiences with sexual assault and never spoke up,
and I feel it is important to be part of
this in some way. I guess that historical piece another
person who may have known him for quite some time.
I just feel like there should be as many people
(01:39):
that can speak to you as possible.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well. I completely understand that you guys have known each
other since when.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Gosh, it's been about twenty five years, so quite some time.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How did you meet?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We met while I was interning for a radio state
at the time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Were you guys kind of seeing each other or dating?
How would you describe that in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, in the beginning, absolutely not. He was a married man,
had little children. But something did change once he did
get a divorce, you know, it became a sexual relationship.
We always maintained a friendship and it kind of was
off and on.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
How was he back then?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
He was always extremely friendly, extremely giving of his time,
very very positive, and always giving compliments. You really felt
like he was with you no matter when, whether we
were just strictly friends or more than friends, extremely complimentary
(02:56):
and he made you feel so special all the time.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, and that behavior is so similar with everyone across
the board.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And you know, listening to the podcast, there was a
lot of what I heard that I didn't experience. I guess,
you know, I'm fortunate that I didn't experience some of
those negative things. I didn't see those sides of him,
and it makes me really feel for those who were traumatized.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And he didn't to me either.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah. Yeah, for me.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think it's because he knew me enough to know
how to speak with me or treat me things like that.
I feel like maybe it was similar with you. He
knew he might not be able to get away with
some of this stuff. Hmm, that he could get away with.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I think you're You're pretty spot on right there, because
we didn't have the type of relationship where we were
so called committed, so if anything were to go wrong,
just by and I think he realized that.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So, you guys were kind of seeing each other just whenever,
on and off. Do you remember him talking about getting
married again.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I do, And he was excited. He was really happy
to reconnect it with you. I do recall that being
a joyous time for him. He just really felt that
you were his person. And I think there was a
period where maybe he felt and I certainly can't speak
(04:41):
for him, but perhaps he felt like, okay, this is
this is it all? This is going to stop now,
I'm going to focus on this person.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
But it didn't stop, right. I know he did some
work for you, and you guys would see each other,
but how did he justify having this affair? After he
and I were married.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
We would check in periodically, I'm like, how are things going.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
He would tell me about the wine.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Bar that you guys open, and was really excited and
would tell me, you know, oh, she's traveling a lot.
But then I would hear sort of things to justify
why we could have a relationship beyond a friendship. Again,
he would say things like we're not happy. I don't
(05:39):
know if he needed to have that in his mind
as well, but he certainly sold it as though you
guys were really on the out right and I.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Know that you're not asking this to shame me.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
However, it happened, and I obviously do feel shameful. I
would not want that to be done to me. Sure,
but you know, he's like, well, my wife is going
to be out of town. Why don't you come check
out the wine.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Bar on a Saturday. I thought, Okay, why not.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's going to be harmless and you know, it wasn't
just a harmless, friendly visit. It was an intimate visit.
But he certainly sold it as though you were still
living together. You were still on paper married, but emotionally
(06:34):
you guys were not together. Anything after that was kind
of off and on. Every so often we would check
in and it'd been a long time.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I was like, I need to google, and I don't
google people.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I don't ever google myself. I never google.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And I googled and I saw his mugshot pop up,
and I was floored, floored.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I thought, what.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Could this man have possibly done? I would never ever
think that he would be arrested for anything. And even
when I read the stories and I read the reports,
there was part of me that thought, this has got
to be a mistake.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
This has to be a mistake.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Because you know Spence, he had all these accolades and
all of you know, everybody loved him. Who would believe it?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Everybody has that persona that they present when they want
to to the masses. I mean, how many times do
you hear people saying I don't believe it.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
They were so nice, right, right?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
What did you think about the fact that it was
a student of his.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I immediately thought he has kids that age.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Would he want that to happen to his children?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I was floored and hearing her story was I mean,
how she was extremely brave to stand up.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right. I'm hoping by us talking about these things, it
will encourage people to speak up and to feel safe
in doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Absolutely, and first and foremost victims have to feel safe
enough to say something.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Yeah, did you.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Hear that last conversation with us?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I did?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I did, And I commend you for doing that. I
don't know if I could. That had to have been
the most difficult conversation of your life, one of them.
He was not remorseful. He certainly sounded as though he
was the victim because he was incarcerated, right, And it's
(09:05):
unfortunate because this pattern will just continue. He won't be
able to break this cycle. So it really was upsetting
to hear him.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
I know.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, that's my fear now that he's out.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's so unfortunate.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, if you saw Spence, what do you think you
would say to him or do?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Wow, that's a great question. The first thing comes to
mind is how dare you? Who are you you're certainly
not the person I knew all these years.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Yeah, after hearing.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
These stories, I really really really feel for these women
who've experienced that manipulation, and especially those who.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Who were assaulted. And we're too young.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
They were too young, yes, to be lied to and
manipulated and groomed in all of those horrible things.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, their lives are forever changed.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Forever changed. And I don't know that he's capable of remorse.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I absolutely agree with you, And you're obviously doing this
for the masses, you know, for those that are listening
to feel that they can have a voice, But you're
also doing a lot for those who have been victims
and feel like they have a safe space to speak.
So I hope that you understand that as well.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Thank you very much for saying that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, thank you, it's true.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I know this wasn't easy for you. I am
grateful though, that you're willing to speak out, because I think,
especially as women, to be honest, to have these kind
of conversations and get past kind of the yuckiness of
it and you know that part, but then talk about
(11:10):
the real underlying issue. Yeah, hopefully we'll just kind of
keep doing this work, you know. I mean, if we
can have more open and honest conversations, maybe we can
make a difference.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Jen. I'm glad that we could
speak today.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And thanks to you guys, our Betrayal community, and get ready,
we'll be back with season two of Betrayal starting May eighteenth.
It's about a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about,
but we'll confront it head on. Here's a sneak peek.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
My husband and I were opening a business. His first
job was that very next day. One of the clients
had asked if they could bendmo him, so he'd called
me that morning September twenty ninth, twenty twenty one. He
was like, I need you to set up my business Venmo,
and I was like, all right, use your name and
(12:12):
password for whatever email is connected to your Venmo. So
he sent me the log in for his eCloud and
as I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back. He
was like, Oh, don't worry about it, we'll do it
together when we get home. Like, I'm sorry, it's going
to be too much, Like, don't do it. I knew
by the tenor of his voice that he was trying
(12:34):
to hide something. I thought maybe he bought something they
didn't want me to know about. There was nothing in
his photos, and then I scrolled down, and that's when
I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. You know,
when you open your photos, it's going to show you
(12:56):
like a whole bunch of them at once. I slammed
my computer shot, what the hell did I just see.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That?
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Season two of Betrayal
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning and if you haven't heard yet,
a lot has been happening with the Trial. First, we'll
be back with season two of Betriyals starting May eighteenth.
We even have a sneak peek at the end of
this episode. Second Trial Season one is being turned into
a documentary. More details on when and where it will launch,
so stay tuned on the feed for updates.
Speaker 2 (00:24):
Looking back now, I was thinking I was way too
young for us to have a friendship, and as a
married man and me being a single young woman, we
should not have had any kind of relationship or regular relationship.
Speaker 1 (00:45):
Jennifer recently had a chance to talk with a woman
from Spencer's past, and she offers an interesting perspective.
Speaker 3 (00:52):
So why did you decide to speak with me today?
Speaker 2 (00:57):
I have to say that even till today, I did
have some reservations. Part of me feels as though I'm
betraying somebody I've known for twenty something years. But I
did want to speak to you, and I feel I
need to speak to you because I think as females
(01:17):
we are kind of told not to speak up. And
I've had my experiences with sexual assault and never spoke up,
and I feel it is important to be part of
this in some way. I guess that historical piece another
person who may have known him for quite some time.
I just feel like there should be as many people
(01:39):
that can speak to you as possible.
Speaker 3 (01:42):
Well. I completely understand that you guys have known each
other since when.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
Gosh, it's been about twenty five years, so quite some time.
Speaker 3 (01:53):
How did you meet?
Speaker 2 (01:55):
We met while I was interning for a radio state
at the time.
Speaker 3 (02:01):
Were you guys kind of seeing each other or dating?
How would you describe that in the beginning.
Speaker 2 (02:09):
Yeah, in the beginning, absolutely not. He was a married man,
had little children. But something did change once he did
get a divorce, you know, it became a sexual relationship.
We always maintained a friendship and it kind of was
off and on.
Speaker 3 (02:30):
How was he back then?
Speaker 2 (02:34):
He was always extremely friendly, extremely giving of his time,
very very positive, and always giving compliments. You really felt
like he was with you no matter when, whether we
were just strictly friends or more than friends, extremely complimentary
(02:56):
and he made you feel so special all the time.
Speaker 3 (02:59):
Yeah, and that behavior is so similar with everyone across
the board.
Speaker 4 (03:05):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (03:06):
And you know, listening to the podcast, there was a
lot of what I heard that I didn't experience. I guess,
you know, I'm fortunate that I didn't experience some of
those negative things. I didn't see those sides of him,
and it makes me really feel for those who were traumatized.
Speaker 3 (03:27):
And he didn't to me either.
Speaker 4 (03:29):
Yeah. Yeah, for me.
Speaker 3 (03:32):
I think it's because he knew me enough to know
how to speak with me or treat me things like that.
I feel like maybe it was similar with you. He
knew he might not be able to get away with
some of this stuff. Hmm, that he could get away with.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I think you're You're pretty spot on right there, because
we didn't have the type of relationship where we were
so called committed, so if anything were to go wrong,
just by and I think he realized that.
Speaker 3 (04:05):
So, you guys were kind of seeing each other just whenever,
on and off. Do you remember him talking about getting
married again.
Speaker 2 (04:17):
I do, And he was excited. He was really happy
to reconnect it with you. I do recall that being
a joyous time for him. He just really felt that
you were his person. And I think there was a
period where maybe he felt and I certainly can't speak
(04:41):
for him, but perhaps he felt like, okay, this is
this is it all? This is going to stop now,
I'm going to focus on this person.
Speaker 3 (04:51):
But it didn't stop, right. I know he did some
work for you, and you guys would see each other,
but how did he justify having this affair? After he
and I were married.
Speaker 2 (05:07):
We would check in periodically, I'm like, how are things going.
Speaker 4 (05:11):
He would tell me about the wine.
Speaker 2 (05:14):
Bar that you guys open, and was really excited and
would tell me, you know, oh, she's traveling a lot.
But then I would hear sort of things to justify
why we could have a relationship beyond a friendship. Again,
he would say things like we're not happy. I don't
(05:39):
know if he needed to have that in his mind
as well, but he certainly sold it as though you
guys were really on the out right and I.
Speaker 4 (05:48):
Know that you're not asking this to shame me.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
However, it happened, and I obviously do feel shameful. I
would not want that to be done to me. Sure,
but you know, he's like, well, my wife is going
to be out of town. Why don't you come check
out the wine.
Speaker 4 (06:09):
Bar on a Saturday. I thought, Okay, why not.
Speaker 2 (06:13):
It's going to be harmless and you know, it wasn't
just a harmless, friendly visit. It was an intimate visit.
But he certainly sold it as though you were still
living together. You were still on paper married, but emotionally
(06:34):
you guys were not together. Anything after that was kind
of off and on. Every so often we would check
in and it'd been a long time.
Speaker 4 (06:46):
And I don't know why.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I was like, I need to google, and I don't
google people.
Speaker 4 (06:50):
I don't ever google myself. I never google.
Speaker 2 (06:54):
And I googled and I saw his mugshot pop up,
and I was floored, floored.
Speaker 4 (07:03):
I thought, what.
Speaker 2 (07:04):
Could this man have possibly done? I would never ever
think that he would be arrested for anything. And even
when I read the stories and I read the reports,
there was part of me that thought, this has got
to be a mistake.
Speaker 4 (07:21):
This has to be a mistake.
Speaker 3 (07:23):
Because you know Spence, he had all these accolades and
all of you know, everybody loved him. Who would believe it?
Speaker 4 (07:32):
Right?
Speaker 2 (07:32):
Everybody has that persona that they present when they want
to to the masses. I mean, how many times do
you hear people saying I don't believe it.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
They were so nice, right, right?
Speaker 3 (07:46):
What did you think about the fact that it was
a student of his.
Speaker 2 (07:53):
I immediately thought he has kids that age.
Speaker 4 (07:56):
Would he want that to happen to his children?
Speaker 2 (08:00):
I was floored and hearing her story was I mean,
how she was extremely brave to stand up.
Speaker 3 (08:08):
Right. I'm hoping by us talking about these things, it
will encourage people to speak up and to feel safe
in doing that.
Speaker 2 (08:18):
Absolutely, and first and foremost victims have to feel safe
enough to say something.
Speaker 5 (08:28):
Yeah, did you.
Speaker 3 (08:39):
Hear that last conversation with us?
Speaker 4 (08:42):
I did?
Speaker 2 (08:43):
I did, And I commend you for doing that. I
don't know if I could. That had to have been
the most difficult conversation of your life, one of them.
He was not remorseful. He certainly sounded as though he
was the victim because he was incarcerated, right, And it's
(09:05):
unfortunate because this pattern will just continue. He won't be
able to break this cycle. So it really was upsetting
to hear him.
Speaker 5 (09:16):
I know.
Speaker 3 (09:18):
I mean, that's my fear now that he's out.
Speaker 4 (09:20):
It's so unfortunate.
Speaker 3 (09:22):
Yeah, if you saw Spence, what do you think you
would say to him or do?
Speaker 2 (09:28):
Wow, that's a great question. The first thing comes to
mind is how dare you? Who are you you're certainly
not the person I knew all these years.
Speaker 4 (09:44):
Yeah, after hearing.
Speaker 2 (09:45):
These stories, I really really really feel for these women
who've experienced that manipulation, and especially those who.
Speaker 4 (09:56):
Who were assaulted. And we're too young.
Speaker 3 (09:59):
They were too young, yes, to be lied to and
manipulated and groomed in all of those horrible things.
Speaker 4 (10:07):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (10:08):
Yeah, their lives are forever changed.
Speaker 3 (10:11):
Forever changed. And I don't know that he's capable of remorse.
Speaker 2 (10:18):
I absolutely agree with you, And you're obviously doing this
for the masses, you know, for those that are listening
to feel that they can have a voice, But you're
also doing a lot for those who have been victims
and feel like they have a safe space to speak.
So I hope that you understand that as well.
Speaker 3 (10:41):
Thank you very much for saying that. I appreciate it.
Speaker 4 (10:45):
Yeah, thank you, it's true.
Speaker 3 (10:47):
Well, I know this wasn't easy for you. I am
grateful though, that you're willing to speak out, because I think,
especially as women, to be honest, to have these kind
of conversations and get past kind of the yuckiness of
it and you know that part, but then talk about
(11:10):
the real underlying issue. Yeah, hopefully we'll just kind of
keep doing this work, you know. I mean, if we
can have more open and honest conversations, maybe we can
make a difference.
Speaker 4 (11:24):
Yeah, it's my pleasure. Jen. I'm glad that we could
speak today.
Speaker 1 (11:29):
And thanks to you guys, our Betrayal community, and get ready,
we'll be back with season two of Betrayal starting May eighteenth.
It's about a new betrayal that rarely ever is spoken about,
but we'll confront it head on. Here's a sneak peek.
Speaker 6 (11:51):
My husband and I were opening a business. His first
job was that very next day. One of the clients
had asked if they could bendmo him, so he'd called
me that morning September twenty ninth, twenty twenty one. He
was like, I need you to set up my business Venmo,
and I was like, all right, use your name and
(12:12):
password for whatever email is connected to your Venmo. So
he sent me the log in for his eCloud and
as I'm signing in, he frantically calls me back. He
was like, Oh, don't worry about it, we'll do it
together when we get home. Like, I'm sorry, it's going
to be too much, Like, don't do it. I knew
by the tenor of his voice that he was trying
(12:34):
to hide something. I thought maybe he bought something they
didn't want me to know about. There was nothing in
his photos, and then I scrolled down, and that's when
I saw a hidden folder and I opened it. You know,
when you open your photos, it's going to show you
(12:56):
like a whole bunch of them at once. I slammed
my computer shot, what the hell did I just see.
Speaker 3 (13:29):
That?
Speaker 1 (13:29):
Season two of Betrayal
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