May 26, 2022 • 29 mins
One of the hardest pills to swallow for Jenifer was discovering a friend of hers was involved with her husband. She and her former friend haven’t spoken in years. Anger, shame, and blame created a gulf. In this episode, Jen confronts her former friend to find out how it started and why no one told her about the affair, even when the opportunity presented itself. She walks away with many answers and some questions that will never be answered.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
This podcast discusses consensual sexual activity. Please take care while listening.
One of Spencer's long term affairs was with a friend
of Jennifer's, and she found that especially hurtful. He wrote
about it to jen To my memory, she was staring
(00:20):
at me a lot at the bar. I'm sure I
noticed and tried to dismiss it as just my imagination,
but it continued. I honestly have no idea how it started.
I simply found times when you or her husband were
both out of town when it was over with her.
(00:41):
You can't imagine my relief that problem in my life
was over. I was so happy. I'm Andrea Gunning and
this is trial episode six, the only one. I don't
(01:12):
know much about your relationship with this woman, but she
was your friend, right, yeah. I mean one of the
reasons that I really wanted to talk to her is
because she was a friend of mine. She knew us.
When Spence and I opened the bar, her and her
husband started coming in as regulars, and so, like a
(01:35):
lot of people, we became friends with them. When they
got out for a night and had a babysitter, they'd
go to dinner in town but come by the bar.
Before or after and spend time with us. So when
I opened Spence's email and started scrolling through his photos,
(01:55):
all of a sudden her picture popped up. And to
see somebody, you know, provocatively in a photo and knowing
that they sent it to your husband, I mean, I
was so angry, as you can imagine. I mean, I
was with everybody. But I called her that night and
(02:16):
it was probably eleven eleven thirty at night, and I
didn't care. I went back to look through all the
correspondence between them, and I realized that they had been
seeing each other from like the end of two thousand
fourteen through two sixteen, And in reading all of their correspondence,
(02:42):
I could really tell that she got hurt, like she
had fallen for Spence hard. She really believed she was
the only one. She really did. She left me a
voicemail and she said, I thought I was the only one.
It wasn't easy for any of the women involved with
(03:03):
Spencer to participate in this podcast. Jen's former friend agreed
to speak with her on the record. The requested that
we keep her voice in name private. Although this conversation
is one hundred percent reel any interest of protecting her identity.
We used a voice actor for her side the conversation.
(03:27):
Can you tell me how the relationship between the two
of you started. It happened so slowly, finding things that
were similarities between us, Like I played soccer, you know
he played soccer. I coached, he coached, So early conversations
would be, you know, when we run into each other, like, oh,
(03:47):
how's the game, or how's coaching, or hey, coach, you know,
certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but getting to
know me and my family and you know, making me
feel comfortable with him over time. And then I guess,
you know, knowing that there was an instance where he
would try to start physical interactions. Was that usually at
(04:09):
the wine bar. Yeah. The very first time I went
to the bathroom at the end of the night, he
asked me if I could help stay there for him
to close up, like help carry something out. I went
into the bathroom and when I came out, he was
there and mentioned like, you know that we have this
thing together. You know you're feeling is too right, And
(04:31):
then he came in for a kiss, then held my
hand and touched his crotch with my hand on the
outside of his pants, and what did you do? I mean,
I just had wine, you know, So me feeling like
it was somebody I trusted over at least six months
to a year. I mean, I had thought he was attractive,
(04:53):
not that that's any fault to my significant other, but
he was traveling a lot, and when he was home
he fell asleep, really and I was a stay at
home mom with kids and I was stressed out and
I felt like somebody got me in that moment. So
he knew he was taking advantage of that. So how
did it progress them? Like, how did he, I guess,
(05:15):
justify it that we were meant to be together. However,
in the midst of things, I remember him saying that,
you know, his wife can never find out because you know,
he loves his wife and his relationship, so nobody could
find out what was going on. He made me feel
(05:36):
like I was the only one and special and I
know that sounds weird, Nope, but both being married and
in a relationship, I was okay with it. I felt
like I didn't necessarily want to have physical contact, you know,
I think guys are more driven towards that, but I
guess in a way, I almost felt like I owed
(05:58):
him something, and I was never forced or never said
no and against my will, but all along I knew
it was wrong. But then I would always hear, you know, like,
you're so beautiful, you're really really well rounded, You're a
great mom. But I was strung out, stressed out, didn't
feel pretty all the time, because you know, I had
(06:18):
kids hanging off me, breastfeeding. I was greasy, maybe showered
every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes, and
him coming in and making like those compliments and stuff.
Of course it made me feel good. Yeah, And I
remember one day after the wine bar, we went to
the restaurant back in the back, and I remember questioning
him like how many people do you do this with?
(06:41):
And he's like what? And I was like, how many
people have you had relationships with outside of your marriage?
And he's like, are you kidding me? None? No others,
no one. In my gut, I knew that this was
happening all over because I could see the way that
he would look at people in public situation, as if
(07:01):
I was off in a distance or he was exchanging
money with somebody, his hand would linger on hers a
little bit longer. It was a challenge it was a game.
So this happened over a couple of years. At the
peak of it, what was it like, Like we weren't
in contact all the time. I mean, it was mostly
(07:22):
like texts or emails, and the times that we met
up were few and far between than what you probably
think because I wasn't about all that. And then there
were times where he would, you know, say we'll just
role play, and I felt okay doing that because I'm like,
I'd rather talk about it than meet up and do
something that I know is horrible. Did you also feel
(07:43):
that sense to like please him? I did, because at
some point I did kind of feel like, well, now
I'm into deep. If I try to stop this, is
he gonna like go tell somebody, you know? But it
wasn't like I was ever forced. Looking back, that's what's embarrassing.
(08:04):
I consented to that stuff with him merely taking that
time to build that relationship. You don't want to live
your life having a shield up against somebody who's going
to pay you a compliment or somebody who's going to
get to know you and be a good person. But
that's truly how it happened, very nonchalant over time, gaining
that trust. And I think people that have that sickness
(08:29):
or that addiction, they know that that's what works. It's rooming.
It's rooming, it is rooming, and they don't mind taking
the time to build that trust. And at what point
did you realize it was grooming? You know? Going through
all this, I was going to church and believing in God.
(08:51):
Was I as strong with my relationship with God at
that time? No? I wasn't. I felt bad going to church,
I felt bad taking the communion, but I felt at
one point like I was just in too far with things,
and it just hit me, like I realized what was
going on, and I just said, I can't, you know,
(09:12):
I can't do this anymore. And it was at that
point when I really realized that I'm not the only
other one that's being flirted with. And that's when I
kind of said, like, what's going on? There were plenty
of times when I wanted to come to you, but
I didn't think you'd believe me because he was so
good at charming and talking his way around things. You
(09:35):
probably would have went to him and he would have
denied it. And he's your husband. If you don't know
for sure, you know, there wasn't any evidence, but there
was evidence not earlier on, when it was just kind
of the grooming process, right. I wish that I could
have noticed it at that point. I wish I had
the strength to be that person that would have just
(09:56):
seen everything bright and clear and could have given you
heads up, because surely things wouldn't have happened with other people,
you know. And I think that's why it's important for
other people to hear this, because you can honestly say
I might have stepped into something and made that mistake
and fallen for it, but like, look, these are the signs.
(10:18):
And then, especially when I found out what happened with
somebody underage, do you think I kicked myself the way
I was talked to to feel good about myself and
to trust him. Surely that happened to that same girl.
I bet you any money it was the same steps,
just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them
(10:39):
feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like
they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like
I can't do this, this is wrong. Well no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
just click like we do. Those were the kind of
comments that I would get really oh my gosh. Yeah.
(11:01):
But then at the same time, I didn't want anyone
finding out about this and didn't want his marriage to
be ruined. I think that was his cover. His cover
was being married. People didn't expect him to do these things,
and he used that. So you knew me. You must
(11:25):
have asked him about me, like were you guys gonna
go off together? Absolutely not, and I asked him that.
At one point, I said, what do you want from this?
He would say that he was happy and nothing was
wrong with his relationship, and he would just bring it
back on like you can't help, kind of like a
(11:47):
fate situation of two people being really good for each other,
and then he would say, like, you know, there's no
commitment or whatever. And then at one point I remember
him saying something about meeting up and I said no,
and he texted me a picture of his dick right
(12:09):
right out there, not even expecting it right out there
on my phone. So when he was wanting to meet
up and I knew things were wrong, I felt like, well,
if I could give him anything that would make him happy,
and I wouldn't have to do physical you know, like
meet in person and do that kind of stuff, then
I will. So if I was drinking wine one night
(12:32):
and you know, binge watching shows or something, and he
texted me and at one point then requested me to
send him a picture, I felt like that was better
than actually getting together with him, right, And then I
remember saying to him the next day, like, you need
to delete that. Will you promise me you delete that now?
(12:52):
Are you surprised to know that he kept everything? I
mean he told me like, of course, of course, you know.
But then in the back of my mind I had
a feeling, especially towards the end, that he did not
delete that kind of stuff really aggravates me. That was
personal important things, Yes, that I made the wrong decision
(13:15):
to do. But in me asking him he should have
deleted those, like, I feel like that is not right
at all. Well wait, let me ask you this. I
just want to go back. Did you guys sleep together? Yes?
Where in the bathroom at the bar. And then there
was another time when I was out on my own
(13:38):
with friends and he was kind of pestering me for
me to pick him up, and that was another place
his car. Yes, did you ever come to my house.
I came to your house once. He invited a woman
into my house. He did, and I bet I wasn't
(13:58):
the only one, and so you just came into my house.
He took my hands and he took me upstairs. He
had things set up in the upper bedroom with like
candles and shit. That was the point where I couldn't
and I told him no. So I ended up staying
downstairs and we got into an argument. And that was
(14:21):
one of the times toward the end that I felt
like I just couldn't do this because of the regret
that I had for what I was doing to you
and my family. Well what did you think you were
there for? I don't know. He talked me into going.
I was just like, yeah, I'll come over quick whatever,
you know. I said, like, I don't feel like going
(14:41):
in your house, and I'm like, is somebody else home?
He said that you were traveling or something, and that's
when I was like, I can't. And along the way,
I think it was things like that situations he was
putting me into where I knew that it was going
past the point of no return, but I wasn't going
any farther. And then finally I just took a look
(15:03):
back and really started praying about it. And at that point,
it was almost like a dream, like I can't believe
what I did, what had happened. It was like what's
done is done. I ended up telling my husband on
my own without him even finding anything out, because it
was just eating at me. So what happened after you
told your husband? It was one night and the kids
(15:26):
were in bed, and I ended up telling him at
the table. I'm like, I have something to tell you.
I'm like, I did something really horrible and he's like,
did you have sex? And I said yes? And that
was the utmost hardest thing I've ever had to do.
And he was very distraught, very distraught, and it was
(15:49):
really hard for a long time. You know, our relationships
great now, and looking back, I think it was that
moment when I got a text from somebody with the
article that came out about him going to jail for
underage sex and stuff like that, and I had no doubt,
no doubt. I felt a flood of emotion. Is that
(16:11):
something I could have prevented? You know? But that's the
moment in our relationship that we could actually look at
this in a different light other than me just being
a person that goes and does this. I thought I
was just a horrible person, and this is something that
I sought out, and knowing that it's not, I was
blindly taken advantage of in a lot of different ways.
(16:34):
Did us being friends ever give you pause or factor
into it? I know we were associated with you guys,
and we were friends, but like, there wasn't too much
entanglement in our lives. It wasn't like we were going
out every weekend and we were doing things together. And
part of me looks back and wishes that would have happened,
because I think I would have been stronger to resist,
(16:55):
you know, those passes by him. What happened when your
husband confronts it's spense about this, just yelling and screaming,
and he didn't want me to hear him, but I
was trying to listen and through the event in the
first floor to listen to him in the basement. He
was livid, he was yelling, spitting, I mean, he wanted
(17:17):
to rip him apart. Still to this day, does cannot
ever ever forgive, even though he's a God loving person,
can't ever ever forgive what had happened but at that point,
like why didn't anybody come to me? I guess I
just knew that was like your fairy tale and stuff,
and I guess at that point I just wanted to
(17:38):
just hide everything. But then after that, you guys still
kind of communicated. Was that spense kind of making that gesture? Oh? Absolutely,
I mean, now that it was out to my husband,
I would have never. I had to salvage everything that
I could. I mean, I wanted to meet up to
(18:00):
like talk to him about why and how many other
people and could he come clean with me because I
knew he was lying. And then I also wanted to
tell him, like you need to tell your wife or
else I'm going to and he avoided. He always made
an excuse not to get together. The first voicemail that
(18:20):
you left me, you said something that stuck with me,
and that was he made you feel special. I'm like,
you were the only one he made me feel that
way but lied to my face. Yeah, I felt like
I knew him and trusted him. Looking back, it was
so stupid. It was so stupid. I cannot believe I
(18:43):
let somebody so far into my mind mentally, and I
think it was also the situation that I was in,
you know, with my husband working a lot, and again
not his fault at all, like I should have known
better as a void of other things, I guess kind
of in my life. He came men and he knew
those were things I would tell him, and he knew
(19:04):
that he could be right in there. But my thing
that boggled my mind was like, if I was his
only person, why would he always say like, well, my
wife can never find it out, or like I like
things how I have them? Well, yeah, you do, because
that's your front, and it enables you to do this stuff,
enables you to go out and like encroach on other
(19:25):
women knowing that you're married, like nothing would ever happen. Well,
I mean you were right on. There were more women,
that's for sure. You know. I hate what happened all around.
And I feel like you're super strong, obviously way better
than he is. And I'm glad you found this out
(19:47):
in the way that you did. I'm glad you found
it out so you can live a really awesome life
moving forward. That's right. I mean, if one out of
all the women I found had spoken up, you know,
thank God for the victim, the student who had the courage.
(20:08):
She even waited until later to come out right, like,
you're scared. First of all, you don't want to admit
that you did something horribly wrong. But before you don't
want to admit that you were taken advantage of life.
You know, it's embarrassing, but people can't be afraid to
be embarrassed. You have to talk to somebody. Are you
(20:37):
surprised to hear that I found more women? No, not
at all, absolutely not. That's why when I came out
and saw there's comments about an underage girl and stuff
like that, and people being on his side, that pissed
me off because I sometimes wondered if he did that.
(21:00):
You know, I was like, all these girls probably think
he's real cute at school and stuff like. In the
back of my mind, I was like, hopefully he wouldn't
do something like that, and then like that comes out.
I felt horrible. I felt mixed emotions. I felt bad
for the girl, I felt pissed off at him, I
felt sorry for you. I couldn't believe it actually came
(21:22):
out and happened, but I was happy it happened because
that got him. If not to this day, he could
still be doing that crap. But knowing that he kept
all those things, that's somebody with a major issue, major horrible,
disgusting issue. He had you, he had his kids, he
(21:44):
had everything right in front of him, and whatever it was,
whatever was wrong with him mentally fucked up or whatever,
that is somebody with an issue. So all along I
felt like it was me and that I was horrible
and I did this, I did this thing and made
this horrible mistake. But now I do realize that it
(22:06):
is a victim type situation. I'm sorry for what happened
overall for me. You would think I would know better,
But exactly what happened to the underage girl is what
happened to the other women. And you know what, there's
probably so many women that don't have remorse for what
they did or what they took part in. But I
(22:27):
can tell you that I do, and I know you do,
and I really want you to get past this. I mean,
I don't think about it every day now, But of course,
since you and I have come into contact with each
other over the past couple months here, of course I've
had like full on anxiety attacks and I've had to
(22:49):
like pop out at a van and really try to
get my head straight around everything. But it makes me
feel good for you saying that to me. I can
never be sorry enough to you. It was never ever
pointed at you. I knew you were in this situation.
But I can't even tell you how he made it
feel like there wasn't anything else, any barriers there, and
(23:13):
that was part of whatever he does and whatever those
types of people do well. And I guess I was
looking for, like, what was that secret ingredient and how
did he get away with it? How was he able
to manage so much going on at the same time.
I have no idea. You teach, you coach, you have
(23:36):
a wife that you do things with, You guys had
a business. How do you do all these things? But
then I would hear him say like, I'm going to
go away on my army weekend or whatever, and I knew.
I was like, okay, how many states does he have people?
And that he's counting on. My biggest regret going back.
(23:57):
I mean, of course I would say for all this
not to happen, But my biggest regret is not saying
something right away, and I'll always regret that. I can't
ever not feel like that but I mean definitely helps me.
I don't know if I've helped you at all. Yes,
(24:17):
you did, you really did. Thank you. But that's also
why I'm sharing my story. It's one of those things.
It's like, no, no, no, that could never happen to
somebody I know, and it's like, wait, what, how do
you navigate this? It's crazy. I have a question like
(24:37):
was your husband always on his phone? No, I swear
to God, No, I think about that all the time.
Was he sitting in bed, like texting all night and
things like that. No. I think a lot of it
happened during the day. Will never understand why she was
(24:59):
able to tell her husband, but telling you was different.
Maybe she felt like that was Spencer's responsibility. I think
I do hold her somewhat responsible for not telling me
because she could have. And you would hope that the
relationship and connection you've built with someone would make them
second guess their decisions. Yes, that's another thing. It's different
(25:23):
for some reason the women who didn't know me that
chose to do this, But for a woman who knew
me and saw me a couple times a week, I
just can't even imagine doing that to somebody is it
hard to know that people were just like walking around
knowing your life and your marriage and your household was
(25:47):
something fundamentally different than what you knew it to be. Yeah,
and that's what it's so hard to wrap your head
around when your reality of the life you're leading is
one way, and then to think that it's really not that.
And there were people who knew it, you know. I
(26:09):
think there were people that did know me, maybe not well,
but certainly knew he had a wife. I read so
many correspondents with him and women and him inviting them
to the bar or saying it was so good to
see you at the bar last night, or come see
me at the bar tonight. So clearly this was a
place that I'm finding out now where he used to
(26:33):
get relationships. I walked away feeling like, this is a
person that was really hurt and really into your ex husband.
Because I'm trying to put myself in someone shoes and
unless I'm interested, I'm not noticing the hands from a
(26:54):
customer on his hand, I'm not noticing the subtle looks.
I mean, she was paying attention to him on a
very deep level. She was watching him. That just makes
me feel like you know, she was really roped in.
I really think in her mind she had invested some
(27:16):
of herself into this relationship. I'm just curious if you're
like letting go of that anger that you have towards her.
I do have a little more anger toward her because
she was a friend and she was doing this right
under my nose with my husband. I also appreciate, though,
that she was willing to get on the phone and
(27:38):
talk to me about it so I can let this go,
because honestly, I want her life to be okay. I
hope that the conversation maybe gave her some closure as well,
and hopefully by letting her know that he was like
this with other people, it helps her a little bit
(27:59):
to understand, you know, that this is a pretty sick person.
She's not the only person that fell for it. Yeah,
at the end of the day, it was Spence that
hurt me, But that part of being mad at the women,
I just don't carry that his behavior was so out
(28:19):
of control that it could have been anybody. On the
next episode of Betrayal, I had never ever looked at
her in any inappropriate way, not at all. In fact,
probably for the last ten to fifteen years. I have
not looked at any teen girl as anything but that
(28:40):
a teen girl. I'd gotten older. There were no fantasies.
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership
(29:03):
with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy
Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
written and produced by Carry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchik. Special
thanks to voice actors Todd Ganz and Rocky Alt. Sound
editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio. The trail's theme
(29:26):
was composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by my
Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
This podcast discusses consensual sexual activity. Please take care while listening.
One of Spencer's long term affairs was with a friend
of Jennifer's, and she found that especially hurtful. He wrote
about it to jen To my memory, she was staring
(00:20):
at me a lot at the bar. I'm sure I
noticed and tried to dismiss it as just my imagination,
but it continued. I honestly have no idea how it started.
I simply found times when you or her husband were
both out of town when it was over with her.
(00:41):
You can't imagine my relief that problem in my life
was over. I was so happy. I'm Andrea Gunning and
this is trial episode six, the only one. I don't
(01:12):
know much about your relationship with this woman, but she
was your friend, right, yeah. I mean one of the
reasons that I really wanted to talk to her is
because she was a friend of mine. She knew us.
When Spence and I opened the bar, her and her
husband started coming in as regulars, and so, like a
(01:35):
lot of people, we became friends with them. When they
got out for a night and had a babysitter, they'd
go to dinner in town but come by the bar.
Before or after and spend time with us. So when
I opened Spence's email and started scrolling through his photos,
(01:55):
all of a sudden her picture popped up. And to
see somebody, you know, provocatively in a photo and knowing
that they sent it to your husband, I mean, I
was so angry, as you can imagine. I mean, I
was with everybody. But I called her that night and
(02:16):
it was probably eleven eleven thirty at night, and I
didn't care. I went back to look through all the
correspondence between them, and I realized that they had been
seeing each other from like the end of two thousand
fourteen through two sixteen, And in reading all of their correspondence,
(02:42):
I could really tell that she got hurt, like she
had fallen for Spence hard. She really believed she was
the only one. She really did. She left me a
voicemail and she said, I thought I was the only one.
It wasn't easy for any of the women involved with
(03:03):
Spencer to participate in this podcast. Jen's former friend agreed
to speak with her on the record. The requested that
we keep her voice in name private. Although this conversation
is one hundred percent reel any interest of protecting her identity.
We used a voice actor for her side the conversation.
(03:27):
Can you tell me how the relationship between the two
of you started. It happened so slowly, finding things that
were similarities between us, Like I played soccer, you know
he played soccer. I coached, he coached, So early conversations
would be, you know, when we run into each other, like, oh,
(03:47):
how's the game, or how's coaching, or hey, coach, you know,
certain things that were not necessarily flirtatious, but getting to
know me and my family and you know, making me
feel comfortable with him over time. And then I guess,
you know, knowing that there was an instance where he
would try to start physical interactions. Was that usually at
(04:09):
the wine bar. Yeah. The very first time I went
to the bathroom at the end of the night, he
asked me if I could help stay there for him
to close up, like help carry something out. I went
into the bathroom and when I came out, he was
there and mentioned like, you know that we have this
thing together. You know you're feeling is too right, And
(04:31):
then he came in for a kiss, then held my
hand and touched his crotch with my hand on the
outside of his pants, and what did you do? I mean,
I just had wine, you know, So me feeling like
it was somebody I trusted over at least six months
to a year. I mean, I had thought he was attractive,
(04:53):
not that that's any fault to my significant other, but
he was traveling a lot, and when he was home
he fell asleep, really and I was a stay at
home mom with kids and I was stressed out and
I felt like somebody got me in that moment. So
he knew he was taking advantage of that. So how
did it progress them? Like, how did he, I guess,
(05:15):
justify it that we were meant to be together. However,
in the midst of things, I remember him saying that,
you know, his wife can never find out because you know,
he loves his wife and his relationship, so nobody could
find out what was going on. He made me feel
(05:36):
like I was the only one and special and I
know that sounds weird, Nope, but both being married and
in a relationship, I was okay with it. I felt
like I didn't necessarily want to have physical contact, you know,
I think guys are more driven towards that, but I
guess in a way, I almost felt like I owed
(05:58):
him something, and I was never forced or never said
no and against my will, but all along I knew
it was wrong. But then I would always hear, you know, like,
you're so beautiful, you're really really well rounded, You're a
great mom. But I was strung out, stressed out, didn't
feel pretty all the time, because you know, I had
(06:18):
kids hanging off me, breastfeeding. I was greasy, maybe showered
every couple days, maybe washed up with baby wipes, and
him coming in and making like those compliments and stuff.
Of course it made me feel good. Yeah, And I
remember one day after the wine bar, we went to
the restaurant back in the back, and I remember questioning
him like how many people do you do this with?
(06:41):
And he's like what? And I was like, how many
people have you had relationships with outside of your marriage?
And he's like, are you kidding me? None? No others,
no one. In my gut, I knew that this was
happening all over because I could see the way that
he would look at people in public situation, as if
(07:01):
I was off in a distance or he was exchanging
money with somebody, his hand would linger on hers a
little bit longer. It was a challenge it was a game.
So this happened over a couple of years. At the
peak of it, what was it like, Like we weren't
in contact all the time. I mean, it was mostly
(07:22):
like texts or emails, and the times that we met
up were few and far between than what you probably
think because I wasn't about all that. And then there
were times where he would, you know, say we'll just
role play, and I felt okay doing that because I'm like,
I'd rather talk about it than meet up and do
something that I know is horrible. Did you also feel
(07:43):
that sense to like please him? I did, because at
some point I did kind of feel like, well, now
I'm into deep. If I try to stop this, is
he gonna like go tell somebody, you know? But it
wasn't like I was ever forced. Looking back, that's what's embarrassing.
(08:04):
I consented to that stuff with him merely taking that
time to build that relationship. You don't want to live
your life having a shield up against somebody who's going
to pay you a compliment or somebody who's going to
get to know you and be a good person. But
that's truly how it happened, very nonchalant over time, gaining
that trust. And I think people that have that sickness
(08:29):
or that addiction, they know that that's what works. It's rooming.
It's rooming, it is rooming, and they don't mind taking
the time to build that trust. And at what point
did you realize it was grooming? You know? Going through
all this, I was going to church and believing in God.
(08:51):
Was I as strong with my relationship with God at
that time? No? I wasn't. I felt bad going to church,
I felt bad taking the communion, but I felt at
one point like I was just in too far with things,
and it just hit me, like I realized what was
going on, and I just said, I can't, you know,
(09:12):
I can't do this anymore. And it was at that
point when I really realized that I'm not the only
other one that's being flirted with. And that's when I
kind of said, like, what's going on? There were plenty
of times when I wanted to come to you, but
I didn't think you'd believe me because he was so
good at charming and talking his way around things. You
(09:35):
probably would have went to him and he would have
denied it. And he's your husband. If you don't know
for sure, you know, there wasn't any evidence, but there
was evidence not earlier on, when it was just kind
of the grooming process, right. I wish that I could
have noticed it at that point. I wish I had
the strength to be that person that would have just
(09:56):
seen everything bright and clear and could have given you
heads up, because surely things wouldn't have happened with other people,
you know. And I think that's why it's important for
other people to hear this, because you can honestly say
I might have stepped into something and made that mistake
and fallen for it, but like, look, these are the signs.
(10:18):
And then, especially when I found out what happened with
somebody underage, do you think I kicked myself the way
I was talked to to feel good about myself and
to trust him. Surely that happened to that same girl.
I bet you any money it was the same steps,
just continuously building a relationship with somebody and making them
(10:39):
feel good about themselves, but also making them feel like
they're not doing anything bad. I had remembered saying like
I can't do this, this is wrong. Well no, no,
it's not wrong. You just can't help when two people
just click like we do. Those were the kind of
comments that I would get really oh my gosh. Yeah.
(11:01):
But then at the same time, I didn't want anyone
finding out about this and didn't want his marriage to
be ruined. I think that was his cover. His cover
was being married. People didn't expect him to do these things,
and he used that. So you knew me. You must
(11:25):
have asked him about me, like were you guys gonna
go off together? Absolutely not, and I asked him that.
At one point, I said, what do you want from this?
He would say that he was happy and nothing was
wrong with his relationship, and he would just bring it
back on like you can't help, kind of like a
(11:47):
fate situation of two people being really good for each other,
and then he would say, like, you know, there's no
commitment or whatever. And then at one point I remember
him saying something about meeting up and I said no,
and he texted me a picture of his dick right
(12:09):
right out there, not even expecting it right out there
on my phone. So when he was wanting to meet
up and I knew things were wrong, I felt like, well,
if I could give him anything that would make him happy,
and I wouldn't have to do physical you know, like
meet in person and do that kind of stuff, then
I will. So if I was drinking wine one night
(12:32):
and you know, binge watching shows or something, and he
texted me and at one point then requested me to
send him a picture, I felt like that was better
than actually getting together with him, right, And then I
remember saying to him the next day, like, you need
to delete that. Will you promise me you delete that now?
(12:52):
Are you surprised to know that he kept everything? I
mean he told me like, of course, of course, you know.
But then in the back of my mind I had
a feeling, especially towards the end, that he did not
delete that kind of stuff really aggravates me. That was
personal important things, Yes, that I made the wrong decision
(13:15):
to do. But in me asking him he should have
deleted those, like, I feel like that is not right
at all. Well wait, let me ask you this. I
just want to go back. Did you guys sleep together? Yes?
Where in the bathroom at the bar. And then there
was another time when I was out on my own
(13:38):
with friends and he was kind of pestering me for
me to pick him up, and that was another place
his car. Yes, did you ever come to my house.
I came to your house once. He invited a woman
into my house. He did, and I bet I wasn't
(13:58):
the only one, and so you just came into my house.
He took my hands and he took me upstairs. He
had things set up in the upper bedroom with like
candles and shit. That was the point where I couldn't
and I told him no. So I ended up staying
downstairs and we got into an argument. And that was
(14:21):
one of the times toward the end that I felt
like I just couldn't do this because of the regret
that I had for what I was doing to you
and my family. Well what did you think you were
there for? I don't know. He talked me into going.
I was just like, yeah, I'll come over quick whatever,
you know. I said, like, I don't feel like going
(14:41):
in your house, and I'm like, is somebody else home?
He said that you were traveling or something, and that's
when I was like, I can't. And along the way,
I think it was things like that situations he was
putting me into where I knew that it was going
past the point of no return, but I wasn't going
any farther. And then finally I just took a look
(15:03):
back and really started praying about it. And at that point,
it was almost like a dream, like I can't believe
what I did, what had happened. It was like what's
done is done. I ended up telling my husband on
my own without him even finding anything out, because it
was just eating at me. So what happened after you
told your husband? It was one night and the kids
(15:26):
were in bed, and I ended up telling him at
the table. I'm like, I have something to tell you.
I'm like, I did something really horrible and he's like,
did you have sex? And I said yes? And that
was the utmost hardest thing I've ever had to do.
And he was very distraught, very distraught, and it was
(15:49):
really hard for a long time. You know, our relationships
great now, and looking back, I think it was that
moment when I got a text from somebody with the
article that came out about him going to jail for
underage sex and stuff like that, and I had no doubt,
no doubt. I felt a flood of emotion. Is that
(16:11):
something I could have prevented? You know? But that's the
moment in our relationship that we could actually look at
this in a different light other than me just being
a person that goes and does this. I thought I
was just a horrible person, and this is something that
I sought out, and knowing that it's not, I was
blindly taken advantage of in a lot of different ways.
(16:34):
Did us being friends ever give you pause or factor
into it? I know we were associated with you guys,
and we were friends, but like, there wasn't too much
entanglement in our lives. It wasn't like we were going
out every weekend and we were doing things together. And
part of me looks back and wishes that would have happened,
because I think I would have been stronger to resist,
(16:55):
you know, those passes by him. What happened when your
husband confronts it's spense about this, just yelling and screaming,
and he didn't want me to hear him, but I
was trying to listen and through the event in the
first floor to listen to him in the basement. He
was livid, he was yelling, spitting, I mean, he wanted
(17:17):
to rip him apart. Still to this day, does cannot
ever ever forgive, even though he's a God loving person,
can't ever ever forgive what had happened but at that point,
like why didn't anybody come to me? I guess I
just knew that was like your fairy tale and stuff,
and I guess at that point I just wanted to
(17:38):
just hide everything. But then after that, you guys still
kind of communicated. Was that spense kind of making that gesture? Oh? Absolutely,
I mean, now that it was out to my husband,
I would have never. I had to salvage everything that
I could. I mean, I wanted to meet up to
(18:00):
like talk to him about why and how many other
people and could he come clean with me because I
knew he was lying. And then I also wanted to
tell him, like you need to tell your wife or
else I'm going to and he avoided. He always made
an excuse not to get together. The first voicemail that
(18:20):
you left me, you said something that stuck with me,
and that was he made you feel special. I'm like,
you were the only one he made me feel that
way but lied to my face. Yeah, I felt like
I knew him and trusted him. Looking back, it was
so stupid. It was so stupid. I cannot believe I
(18:43):
let somebody so far into my mind mentally, and I
think it was also the situation that I was in,
you know, with my husband working a lot, and again
not his fault at all, like I should have known
better as a void of other things, I guess kind
of in my life. He came men and he knew
those were things I would tell him, and he knew
(19:04):
that he could be right in there. But my thing
that boggled my mind was like, if I was his
only person, why would he always say like, well, my
wife can never find it out, or like I like
things how I have them? Well, yeah, you do, because
that's your front, and it enables you to do this stuff,
enables you to go out and like encroach on other
(19:25):
women knowing that you're married, like nothing would ever happen. Well,
I mean you were right on. There were more women,
that's for sure. You know. I hate what happened all around.
And I feel like you're super strong, obviously way better
than he is. And I'm glad you found this out
(19:47):
in the way that you did. I'm glad you found
it out so you can live a really awesome life
moving forward. That's right. I mean, if one out of
all the women I found had spoken up, you know,
thank God for the victim, the student who had the courage.
(20:08):
She even waited until later to come out right, like,
you're scared. First of all, you don't want to admit
that you did something horribly wrong. But before you don't
want to admit that you were taken advantage of life.
You know, it's embarrassing, but people can't be afraid to
be embarrassed. You have to talk to somebody. Are you
(20:37):
surprised to hear that I found more women? No, not
at all, absolutely not. That's why when I came out
and saw there's comments about an underage girl and stuff
like that, and people being on his side, that pissed
me off because I sometimes wondered if he did that.
(21:00):
You know, I was like, all these girls probably think
he's real cute at school and stuff like. In the
back of my mind, I was like, hopefully he wouldn't
do something like that, and then like that comes out.
I felt horrible. I felt mixed emotions. I felt bad
for the girl, I felt pissed off at him, I
felt sorry for you. I couldn't believe it actually came
(21:22):
out and happened, but I was happy it happened because
that got him. If not to this day, he could
still be doing that crap. But knowing that he kept
all those things, that's somebody with a major issue, major horrible,
disgusting issue. He had you, he had his kids, he
(21:44):
had everything right in front of him, and whatever it was,
whatever was wrong with him mentally fucked up or whatever,
that is somebody with an issue. So all along I
felt like it was me and that I was horrible
and I did this, I did this thing and made
this horrible mistake. But now I do realize that it
(22:06):
is a victim type situation. I'm sorry for what happened
overall for me. You would think I would know better,
But exactly what happened to the underage girl is what
happened to the other women. And you know what, there's
probably so many women that don't have remorse for what
they did or what they took part in. But I
(22:27):
can tell you that I do, and I know you do,
and I really want you to get past this. I mean,
I don't think about it every day now, But of course,
since you and I have come into contact with each
other over the past couple months here, of course I've
had like full on anxiety attacks and I've had to
(22:49):
like pop out at a van and really try to
get my head straight around everything. But it makes me
feel good for you saying that to me. I can
never be sorry enough to you. It was never ever
pointed at you. I knew you were in this situation.
But I can't even tell you how he made it
feel like there wasn't anything else, any barriers there, and
(23:13):
that was part of whatever he does and whatever those
types of people do well. And I guess I was
looking for, like, what was that secret ingredient and how
did he get away with it? How was he able
to manage so much going on at the same time.
I have no idea. You teach, you coach, you have
(23:36):
a wife that you do things with, You guys had
a business. How do you do all these things? But
then I would hear him say like, I'm going to
go away on my army weekend or whatever, and I knew.
I was like, okay, how many states does he have people?
And that he's counting on. My biggest regret going back.
(23:57):
I mean, of course I would say for all this
not to happen, But my biggest regret is not saying
something right away, and I'll always regret that. I can't
ever not feel like that but I mean definitely helps me.
I don't know if I've helped you at all. Yes,
(24:17):
you did, you really did. Thank you. But that's also
why I'm sharing my story. It's one of those things.
It's like, no, no, no, that could never happen to
somebody I know, and it's like, wait, what, how do
you navigate this? It's crazy. I have a question like
(24:37):
was your husband always on his phone? No, I swear
to God, No, I think about that all the time.
Was he sitting in bed, like texting all night and
things like that. No. I think a lot of it
happened during the day. Will never understand why she was
(24:59):
able to tell her husband, but telling you was different.
Maybe she felt like that was Spencer's responsibility. I think
I do hold her somewhat responsible for not telling me
because she could have. And you would hope that the
relationship and connection you've built with someone would make them
second guess their decisions. Yes, that's another thing. It's different
(25:23):
for some reason the women who didn't know me that
chose to do this, But for a woman who knew
me and saw me a couple times a week, I
just can't even imagine doing that to somebody is it
hard to know that people were just like walking around
knowing your life and your marriage and your household was
(25:47):
something fundamentally different than what you knew it to be. Yeah,
and that's what it's so hard to wrap your head
around when your reality of the life you're leading is
one way, and then to think that it's really not that.
And there were people who knew it, you know. I
(26:09):
think there were people that did know me, maybe not well,
but certainly knew he had a wife. I read so
many correspondents with him and women and him inviting them
to the bar or saying it was so good to
see you at the bar last night, or come see
me at the bar tonight. So clearly this was a
place that I'm finding out now where he used to
(26:33):
get relationships. I walked away feeling like, this is a
person that was really hurt and really into your ex husband.
Because I'm trying to put myself in someone shoes and
unless I'm interested, I'm not noticing the hands from a
(26:54):
customer on his hand, I'm not noticing the subtle looks.
I mean, she was paying attention to him on a
very deep level. She was watching him. That just makes
me feel like you know, she was really roped in.
I really think in her mind she had invested some
(27:16):
of herself into this relationship. I'm just curious if you're
like letting go of that anger that you have towards her.
I do have a little more anger toward her because
she was a friend and she was doing this right
under my nose with my husband. I also appreciate, though,
that she was willing to get on the phone and
(27:38):
talk to me about it so I can let this go,
because honestly, I want her life to be okay. I
hope that the conversation maybe gave her some closure as well,
and hopefully by letting her know that he was like
this with other people, it helps her a little bit
(27:59):
to understand, you know, that this is a pretty sick person.
She's not the only person that fell for it. Yeah,
at the end of the day, it was Spence that
hurt me, But that part of being mad at the women,
I just don't carry that his behavior was so out
(28:19):
of control that it could have been anybody. On the
next episode of Betrayal, I had never ever looked at
her in any inappropriate way, not at all. In fact,
probably for the last ten to fifteen years. I have
not looked at any teen girl as anything but that
(28:40):
a teen girl. I'd gotten older. There were no fantasies.
If you'd like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. That's
Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com. Betrayal is a production
of podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group in partnership
(29:03):
with iHeart Podcasts. The show was executive produced by Nancy
Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
written and produced by Carry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchik. Special
thanks to voice actors Todd Ganz and Rocky Alt. Sound
editing and mixing done by Matt DeVecchio. The trail's theme
(29:26):
was composed by Oliver Bain's music library provided by my
Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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