July 7, 2025 • 19 mins
This summer, one of our favorite podcasts, The Girlfriends, launched a new weekly series, telling the stories of “women winning.” In this bonus episode, Andrea Gunning sits down with Anna Sinfield, host of The Girlfriends: Spotlight, for a candid conversation about telling stories of love, lies, crime, and persevering against the odds.
Don’t miss The Girlfriends: Spotlight and Season 3 of The Girlfriends, premiering July 14th.
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:08):
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, I
sat down with Anna Sinfield, host of The Girlfriend's Spotlight.
It's the new weekly series from The Girlfriends. If you
haven't heard their show, I would recommend starting from the
beginning with season one. It follows the story of Carol
Fisher as she uncovers her recent ex boyfriend sinister past.
(00:30):
Carol enlists his other ex girlfriends to help investigate the
mysterious death of his first wife, Gail Katz. Now, after
two seasons, they're producing weekly episodes all about women accomplishing
great things against the odds. Anna and I discuss what
this work means for us and what's coming up on.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Both of our shows. We hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Annah, Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank
you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I've been spending a lot of time listening to Spotlight
and it's a really exciting project. Give me a little
bit of an explanation on what Girlfriend's Spotlight is and
what was the inspiration behind going from the narrative to
the weekly.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
The Girlfriend's Obviously, it was this story about a group
of women. They all dated the same guy, and they
started to suspect that he might have murdered his first wife,
and they all came together and they put him behind bars,
and so it's like this great story of women coming
together and ultimately triumphing. And then afterwards, you know, there
(01:37):
was this leftover little investigation from it where this torso
washes ashore and it's misidentified as that first wife, Gail,
and I kind of hated that not ever being solved.
Nobody ever knew who that woman was in the end,
once she was kind of decided that she wasn't Gail
in the first place. Yeah, and so we then went
and investigated that, and so that was like a really lovely,
(01:58):
like first two narrative series, they like bled onto one another,
and then we're kind of left with this huge community
of listeners and a feeling that the show wasn't done. Yeah,
and so Spotlight is a series of sort of eight
episodes that we put out in between our narratives where
we get to do these one on one conversations with
(02:19):
women who also triumph together or triumph over adversity in
some way. But they're just kind of these one off stories,
very much like obviously Betrayal Weekly.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Can you kind of describe Anna for me, like the
framework of women winning and what does that mean to
your team?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yeah, so women winning.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It took us a while to land on that women
winning made it broad, but it also kept us always
staying true to this idea that we want to make
sure we don't just tell true crime stories where women
are victims and they suffer. Instead, at the end, you
need to feel like, actually, I can go through something
(02:59):
really shit and at the end of it, I could
still survive. I could still come out on top. And like,
those are the messages that I want people to get
when they're on the tube or the subway, or they're
on the bus or their bike and they're commuting to
work and they feel like they've had a bad day
because that someone's just dumped them or they've had an
(03:20):
argument at work. But at the end, you're hopefully also
feeling like, oh, actually, maybe I can deal with this.
I think we're telling really important stories that don't get
heard enough. And you know, it sounds a bit trite
to say, because you know, so many people talk about
how women's stories aren't heard enough and all of that,
but it's actually true, and these particular stories where women
(03:47):
are from all over the world as well. I had
an interview with a woman in Sri Lanka today, And
I've interviewed people from kind of every continent for this show,
and they are of every age, and some of them
are just to all intents and purposes. When you look
at them, they're just grandmothers, you know. And then you
talk to this grandmother that people probably would look at
(04:08):
on the street and underestimate, and you realize they've done
something absolutely crazy, like death defying, or they have changed
their government for good, They've like saved lives. And I
think I feel really proud of the way the feed
is kind of making people look at people who perhaps
(04:29):
could have been overlooked in a new light and like
celebrate people who aren't being celebrated enough. And so I'm
really proud of that, and I'm passionate about that and
please that people are willing to talk to me about
those amazing moments.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Well, you know, I really loved your decision of like,
I love that I can hear you ask the questions.
You have this wonderful tone of voice which is really
disarming and soft and welcoming, and so it's a really
beautiful balance of living in someone's story as they're telling it,
and then if you have a question or if you
want to react, then you're reminded that it is a conversation.
(05:07):
It's a really beautiful balance, and I think you guys
did a great job and have really nailed that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Ah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I love that we've managed to include that because it
feels like it's kind of integral, so that like we're
not alone, we're in it together. Philosophy of the girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I absolutely found myself just devouring the Madison and Christine
is it Madison and Christine story? The twin sisters? That
story was incredible. I mean, I think that was truly
a great example of women coming together and fighting the
good fight.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And not only that, but there.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Was a lot of similarities in that story that reminded
me of betrayal.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So where did you find that?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And tell me a little bit about making that.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
It was one of the producers on our team who
found the story. You know, for context of what this
show is about. One of the twins was getting photos
of her from a boudoir shoot she did years ago
posted online and she didn't know where from. But once
we got talking to them, they were just so happy
to talk about their story because they were really keen
to get the kind of messaging out there. So they
(06:16):
came together, you know, twins Injustice, and managed to kind
of not only take those photos down, but figure out
who it was and put them behind bars.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So it's yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I mean, it's a classic girlfriend's story, but it's also
a classic betrayal story. So maybe that should have been
our partner episode. But yeah, once we got talking to them,
they were just amazing. They're such wonderful characters, and they
really care about people understanding what non consensual pornography is
and how pervasive it is in our sort of modern
internet world.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
That is something that we deal with a lot and
on our show. I mean when you're talking about especially
internet crimes, which I think is often overlooked because it's
this like nebulous thing of who's really portraying in who's
really consuming it, and it feels intangible, right because it's
somewhere else. I mean, it was a big undertaking for
(07:08):
those women, but they were dogged and Tenasian like she
had to navigate the world and not know who was
doing it to her, but she was suffering because of
it and I remember that was such a powerful moment,
in such a vulnerable moment.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I thought was beautiful and really well done.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I wanted to ask you because I think one thing
that we've had to come to terms with and try
and figure out when we're telling so many different stories
like that one, and we've obviously gone for this tagline
of women winning, and I was interested in listening to
some of the betrayal weekly episodes. You guys have obviously
(07:52):
kind of solidified around the idea it's got to be
a betrayal, which should be.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Like relatively simple.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
But I ever wonder if that becomes a sticking point
that you've liked made that decision that that's what the
show's about. In the same way that obviously now we
can't just tell the stories of women losing, which sadly
is most true crime stories.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I think our biggest struggle when we first started on
the weekly series was diversity of stories. Right, We couldn't
just tell week over week stories of different affairs, or
stories of c SAM or stories of sexual abuse. We
really wanted to showcase that there's different forms of betrayal
(08:29):
out there in different journeys. We have an incredible community
and a ton of people that write in But really
at the heart of these stories and what mo our
producer that works on this series we really have to
talk about is.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
What is the love story here?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
What is the point where there is true connection that
the audience can relate to in some way. But the foundation,
the core of these stories is the love story and
the aftermath because of the deception in betrayal, so it's
just as important to have that love story in the
formula as it is in the deception. And so that
(09:13):
is really the secret sauce. I love that because if
the audience can't really relate or acknowledge what that is
for someone, then they don't necessarily care.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
About the deception or the betrayal.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It's why in the first season of The Girlfriends I
spent so long. I mean, it's not the only reason,
but we invest so much in the friendships of the
women and how funny and quirky they are, and you know,
we really have a whole episode where you get to
know Gail, who's the victim of the story, and the
reason for that is because it's the right thing to do,
and she was an interesting person who deserved to be
(09:46):
at the center of her own story. But also because
in order to really understand what it is to lose
someone and for them to die in such a horrific way,
you need to understand how much of a whole human
being they are. And so it's like, in whatever like
state you're setting up, it's like you give them something
to lose, and then the loss actually has impact.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I mean it's on a human level at all.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Really, that makes sense, as like two humans talking and
sharing stories one on one over coffee, that is the
most important.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I
struggle to listen to really horrible stuff all the time.
I mean, it's obviously part of our jobs, but when
I'm listening to things as a just a podcast listener,
if it's just kind of Gore after Gore after Gore,
I know that's like the popular stuff, and it's if
it's really sensational. But I don't know if it's as
popular as people think it is. I think we like
(10:38):
the suspense and the drama of life, but do we
need to know the worst bits or are they just traumatic?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I really appreciate when producers really sit with what the
human inexperiences aside from the crime itself.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And I think you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
That really really well.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And I love the element of women banding together, especially
in that case when I'm talking about, like with Madison
and Christine, because it really did take an army to
track down the person that was putting these images online.
Law enforcement wasn't taking it seriously, and it was definitely
(11:37):
a pursuit of figuring out, like, I have to advocate
for myself and there's a ton of women here that
are going to advocate along with me, and that that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Little nugget feels very betrayal too.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, because that comes up a lot in Betrayal as well,
isn't it? You know, women coming together?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Our first episode of the Weekly series from last season
is a story of this woman named Stephanie and her
husband was unfortunately drugging her and putting images of her online.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Oh my god, and she wanted to.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Be anonymous, and she was really struggling when we first
met her. And since she told her story, since we've
put out the show, she's connected with other people that
have worked on either the Betrayal Weekly or upcoming limited
run and has just wanted to come out with her
(12:34):
story and own her voice in a way that is
so far removed from when we first met her a
year ago. And it's just this connection between her and
these other women who may not have been betrayed exactly,
but very similar to the way that she was betrayed
by her husband, and just the power of being able
to stand alongside somebody else and reclaim her voice is
(12:57):
unbelievable to watch and witness.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So do you want to tell me a little bit
about the next season of The Girlfriends.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Yes, So on July fourteenth, we have got our new
show coming up. It's our brand new limited series called
The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer. I'm so excited about this. The
story we're telling is kind of a direct comment on
the first two seasons. So we're telling the story of
a woman called Kelly Harnett who went to prison for
(13:30):
a murder that she says she didn't commit. Okay, Instead,
she says it was her very violent ex boyfriend, and
when she was in prison, she was passionate she did
not commit this murder and she was going to get
herself out of prison, and so she started training herself
up to become a jailhouse lawyer, and in the process
(13:50):
of trying to fight to get herself out of prison,
she also got several other women out of prison.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But like the reason I say.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It's like a bit of a comment on what came
is because really it's an exploration on what it means
to be a victim or a villain in America today,
you know. And so the first two seasons it was
so simple. You know, we had a very clear cut
victim and someone who was very clear cut as the villain,
(14:19):
and we just like put them in those camps. It
worked really well for me narratively. It meant that I
could kind of right them as like a traditional story arc,
and we didn't explore the complexities of what it means
to be in either of those roles and the sort
of range that humans have. Whereas this series, obviously you've
(14:40):
got someone who the justice system believes committed a crime
and she is saying she didn't, And when you start
to explore her story, you can really understand why it's
a really complicated thing to label someone as a bad guy,
because it's not always that simple. There's lots of reasons
why people end up in difficult criminal situations.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I do think that there is more space for understanding
the complexity of the human experience, especially in the audio format.
Life is not black and white, crimes aren't black and white.
What happens in the aftermath is in black and white totally.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Yeah, And I mean that's a huge part of the
series is that you hear me wrestling with that idea
of like, what kind of person do we accept as
just being a victim of something? Because actually there is
a playbook that we expect victims to play by and
if you don't play by that, and if something bad
happens in your life and you end up involved in
(15:43):
something criminal, you do end up being charged with a crime.
You know that happens time and time again that people
who just don't seem victimy enough they end up going
to prison because that looks like a villain, it doesn't
look like a victim. And that's yeah, screwed up but
interesting to explore.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, it is, and it's delicate and it's really tough.
And we do have this saying on the Betrayal Limited
you know, there are no perfect victims and how relatable
is that? You know, that is what you say to
your girlfriend's over at coffee that I think we should
give more space to in you know, various formats, not
(16:28):
just audio but TV too, and those conversations. I think
people are having more open mindedness to different types of victims.
And I do think we're seeing a change, don't you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I think the tides are turning.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
And what have you got coming up right now?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
We are actively putting out episodes for season four of
Betrayal of the Limited Run, and this season tells the
story about a woman whose husband is a police officer
with the Colorado Springs Police Department, and he not only
betrays her but also his community and really unpacks a
lifetime of lies and what that does for your lived experience.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
I mean, it's really wild to sit with people who.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Have to go back twenty years and talk about, well,
I thought the birth of my son was one way,
and now I've learned new information twenty years later, and
that day was fundamentally changed for.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Me as well.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
As we really go into policies and things that happen
internally at the Colorado Springs Police Department, and we got
access to this incredible tape his entire Ia files that
were all recorded, and so we have hours and hours
of footage and just hearing him basically just lie to
his colleagues and his bosses, and it really just shows,
(17:45):
you know, if he's doing this internally at his job,
what is he doing to his wife? And we kind
of just explore that. It's really fascinating. And then starting
in August, we are putting out season two of the
Always On for Betrayal so News story Weekly, which is exciting.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Busy, we're both busy.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you, and thank
you so much for your time.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And I'm going to listen to that series.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I'm Benjinette. It sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Thank you, thanks for listening. Check out The girlfriend Spotlight
and the next season of The Girlfriends coming July fourteenth.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email
us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
We're grateful for your support.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
One way to show support is by subscribing to our
show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
review Betrayal five star reviews, Go A long Way, A
big thank you to all.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Of our listeners.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
With iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
The show is executive produced by.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchech. Audio
editing and mixing by mattel Vecchio.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by
mob of Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Hey guys, it's Andrea Gunning. A few weeks ago, I
sat down with Anna Sinfield, host of The Girlfriend's Spotlight.
It's the new weekly series from The Girlfriends. If you
haven't heard their show, I would recommend starting from the
beginning with season one. It follows the story of Carol
Fisher as she uncovers her recent ex boyfriend sinister past.
(00:30):
Carol enlists his other ex girlfriends to help investigate the
mysterious death of his first wife, Gail Katz. Now, after
two seasons, they're producing weekly episodes all about women accomplishing
great things against the odds. Anna and I discuss what
this work means for us and what's coming up on.
Speaker 2 (00:50):
Both of our shows. We hope you enjoy it.
Speaker 3 (00:56):
Annah, Thank you so much for joining me today. Thank
you so much for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
I've been spending a lot of time listening to Spotlight
and it's a really exciting project. Give me a little
bit of an explanation on what Girlfriend's Spotlight is and
what was the inspiration behind going from the narrative to
the weekly.
Speaker 4 (01:16):
The Girlfriend's Obviously, it was this story about a group
of women. They all dated the same guy, and they
started to suspect that he might have murdered his first wife,
and they all came together and they put him behind bars,
and so it's like this great story of women coming
together and ultimately triumphing. And then afterwards, you know, there
(01:37):
was this leftover little investigation from it where this torso
washes ashore and it's misidentified as that first wife, Gail,
and I kind of hated that not ever being solved.
Nobody ever knew who that woman was in the end,
once she was kind of decided that she wasn't Gail
in the first place. Yeah, and so we then went
and investigated that, and so that was like a really lovely,
(01:58):
like first two narrative series, they like bled onto one another,
and then we're kind of left with this huge community
of listeners and a feeling that the show wasn't done. Yeah,
and so Spotlight is a series of sort of eight
episodes that we put out in between our narratives where
we get to do these one on one conversations with
(02:19):
women who also triumph together or triumph over adversity in
some way. But they're just kind of these one off stories,
very much like obviously Betrayal Weekly.
Speaker 1 (02:29):
Can you kind of describe Anna for me, like the
framework of women winning and what does that mean to
your team?
Speaker 3 (02:35):
Yeah, so women winning.
Speaker 4 (02:37):
It took us a while to land on that women
winning made it broad, but it also kept us always
staying true to this idea that we want to make
sure we don't just tell true crime stories where women
are victims and they suffer. Instead, at the end, you
need to feel like, actually, I can go through something
(02:59):
really shit and at the end of it, I could
still survive. I could still come out on top. And like,
those are the messages that I want people to get
when they're on the tube or the subway, or they're
on the bus or their bike and they're commuting to
work and they feel like they've had a bad day
because that someone's just dumped them or they've had an
(03:20):
argument at work. But at the end, you're hopefully also
feeling like, oh, actually, maybe I can deal with this.
I think we're telling really important stories that don't get
heard enough. And you know, it sounds a bit trite
to say, because you know, so many people talk about
how women's stories aren't heard enough and all of that,
but it's actually true, and these particular stories where women
(03:47):
are from all over the world as well. I had
an interview with a woman in Sri Lanka today, And
I've interviewed people from kind of every continent for this show,
and they are of every age, and some of them
are just to all intents and purposes. When you look
at them, they're just grandmothers, you know. And then you
talk to this grandmother that people probably would look at
(04:08):
on the street and underestimate, and you realize they've done
something absolutely crazy, like death defying, or they have changed
their government for good, They've like saved lives. And I
think I feel really proud of the way the feed
is kind of making people look at people who perhaps
(04:29):
could have been overlooked in a new light and like
celebrate people who aren't being celebrated enough. And so I'm
really proud of that, and I'm passionate about that and
please that people are willing to talk to me about
those amazing moments.
Speaker 1 (04:44):
Well, you know, I really loved your decision of like,
I love that I can hear you ask the questions.
You have this wonderful tone of voice which is really
disarming and soft and welcoming, and so it's a really
beautiful balance of living in someone's story as they're telling it,
and then if you have a question or if you
want to react, then you're reminded that it is a conversation.
(05:07):
It's a really beautiful balance, and I think you guys
did a great job and have really nailed that.
Speaker 3 (05:12):
Ah, thank you.
Speaker 4 (05:14):
I love that we've managed to include that because it
feels like it's kind of integral, so that like we're
not alone, we're in it together. Philosophy of the girlfriends.
Speaker 1 (05:23):
I absolutely found myself just devouring the Madison and Christine
is it Madison and Christine story? The twin sisters? That
story was incredible. I mean, I think that was truly
a great example of women coming together and fighting the
good fight.
Speaker 3 (05:43):
And not only that, but there.
Speaker 1 (05:45):
Was a lot of similarities in that story that reminded
me of betrayal.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
So where did you find that?
Speaker 1 (05:51):
And tell me a little bit about making that.
Speaker 4 (05:54):
It was one of the producers on our team who
found the story. You know, for context of what this
show is about. One of the twins was getting photos
of her from a boudoir shoot she did years ago
posted online and she didn't know where from. But once
we got talking to them, they were just so happy
to talk about their story because they were really keen
to get the kind of messaging out there. So they
(06:16):
came together, you know, twins Injustice, and managed to kind
of not only take those photos down, but figure out
who it was and put them behind bars.
Speaker 3 (06:24):
So it's yeah, you're right.
Speaker 4 (06:26):
I mean, it's a classic girlfriend's story, but it's also
a classic betrayal story. So maybe that should have been
our partner episode. But yeah, once we got talking to them,
they were just amazing. They're such wonderful characters, and they
really care about people understanding what non consensual pornography is
and how pervasive it is in our sort of modern
internet world.
Speaker 1 (06:47):
That is something that we deal with a lot and
on our show. I mean when you're talking about especially
internet crimes, which I think is often overlooked because it's
this like nebulous thing of who's really portraying in who's
really consuming it, and it feels intangible, right because it's
somewhere else. I mean, it was a big undertaking for
(07:08):
those women, but they were dogged and Tenasian like she
had to navigate the world and not know who was
doing it to her, but she was suffering because of
it and I remember that was such a powerful moment,
in such a vulnerable moment.
Speaker 2 (07:26):
I thought was beautiful and really well done.
Speaker 3 (07:28):
Oh, thank you so much.
Speaker 4 (07:31):
I wanted to ask you because I think one thing
that we've had to come to terms with and try
and figure out when we're telling so many different stories
like that one, and we've obviously gone for this tagline
of women winning, and I was interested in listening to
some of the betrayal weekly episodes. You guys have obviously
(07:52):
kind of solidified around the idea it's got to be
a betrayal, which should be.
Speaker 3 (07:56):
Like relatively simple.
Speaker 4 (07:57):
But I ever wonder if that becomes a sticking point
that you've liked made that decision that that's what the
show's about. In the same way that obviously now we
can't just tell the stories of women losing, which sadly
is most true crime stories.
Speaker 1 (08:09):
I think our biggest struggle when we first started on
the weekly series was diversity of stories. Right, We couldn't
just tell week over week stories of different affairs, or
stories of c SAM or stories of sexual abuse. We
really wanted to showcase that there's different forms of betrayal
(08:29):
out there in different journeys. We have an incredible community
and a ton of people that write in But really
at the heart of these stories and what mo our
producer that works on this series we really have to
talk about is.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
What is the love story here?
Speaker 1 (08:49):
What is the point where there is true connection that
the audience can relate to in some way. But the foundation,
the core of these stories is the love story and
the aftermath because of the deception in betrayal, so it's
just as important to have that love story in the
formula as it is in the deception. And so that
(09:13):
is really the secret sauce. I love that because if
the audience can't really relate or acknowledge what that is
for someone, then they don't necessarily care.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
About the deception or the betrayal.
Speaker 4 (09:25):
It's why in the first season of The Girlfriends I
spent so long. I mean, it's not the only reason,
but we invest so much in the friendships of the
women and how funny and quirky they are, and you know,
we really have a whole episode where you get to
know Gail, who's the victim of the story, and the
reason for that is because it's the right thing to do,
and she was an interesting person who deserved to be
(09:46):
at the center of her own story. But also because
in order to really understand what it is to lose
someone and for them to die in such a horrific way,
you need to understand how much of a whole human
being they are. And so it's like, in whatever like
state you're setting up, it's like you give them something
to lose, and then the loss actually has impact.
Speaker 3 (10:05):
I mean it's on a human level at all.
Speaker 1 (10:08):
Really, that makes sense, as like two humans talking and
sharing stories one on one over coffee, that is the
most important.
Speaker 4 (10:16):
Yeah. I mean, I don't know about you, but I
struggle to listen to really horrible stuff all the time.
I mean, it's obviously part of our jobs, but when
I'm listening to things as a just a podcast listener,
if it's just kind of Gore after Gore after Gore,
I know that's like the popular stuff, and it's if
it's really sensational. But I don't know if it's as
popular as people think it is. I think we like
(10:38):
the suspense and the drama of life, but do we
need to know the worst bits or are they just traumatic?
Speaker 1 (11:06):
I really appreciate when producers really sit with what the
human inexperiences aside from the crime itself.
Speaker 3 (11:13):
And I think you guys are doing.
Speaker 2 (11:14):
That really really well.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
And I love the element of women banding together, especially
in that case when I'm talking about, like with Madison
and Christine, because it really did take an army to
track down the person that was putting these images online.
Law enforcement wasn't taking it seriously, and it was definitely
(11:37):
a pursuit of figuring out, like, I have to advocate
for myself and there's a ton of women here that
are going to advocate along with me, and that that.
Speaker 2 (11:46):
Little nugget feels very betrayal too.
Speaker 4 (11:49):
Yeah, because that comes up a lot in Betrayal as well,
isn't it? You know, women coming together?
Speaker 3 (11:55):
Yeah, it's really interesting.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
Our first episode of the Weekly series from last season
is a story of this woman named Stephanie and her
husband was unfortunately drugging her and putting images of her online.
Speaker 3 (12:09):
Oh my god, and she wanted to.
Speaker 1 (12:10):
Be anonymous, and she was really struggling when we first
met her. And since she told her story, since we've
put out the show, she's connected with other people that
have worked on either the Betrayal Weekly or upcoming limited
run and has just wanted to come out with her
(12:34):
story and own her voice in a way that is
so far removed from when we first met her a
year ago. And it's just this connection between her and
these other women who may not have been betrayed exactly,
but very similar to the way that she was betrayed
by her husband, and just the power of being able
to stand alongside somebody else and reclaim her voice is
(12:57):
unbelievable to watch and witness.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
It's really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (13:03):
So do you want to tell me a little bit
about the next season of The Girlfriends.
Speaker 4 (13:07):
Yes, So on July fourteenth, we have got our new
show coming up. It's our brand new limited series called
The Girlfriend's Jailhouse Lawyer. I'm so excited about this. The
story we're telling is kind of a direct comment on
the first two seasons. So we're telling the story of
a woman called Kelly Harnett who went to prison for
(13:30):
a murder that she says she didn't commit. Okay, Instead,
she says it was her very violent ex boyfriend, and
when she was in prison, she was passionate she did
not commit this murder and she was going to get
herself out of prison, and so she started training herself
up to become a jailhouse lawyer, and in the process
(13:50):
of trying to fight to get herself out of prison,
she also got several other women out of prison.
Speaker 3 (13:56):
But like the reason I say.
Speaker 4 (13:58):
It's like a bit of a comment on what came
is because really it's an exploration on what it means
to be a victim or a villain in America today,
you know. And so the first two seasons it was
so simple. You know, we had a very clear cut
victim and someone who was very clear cut as the villain,
(14:19):
and we just like put them in those camps. It
worked really well for me narratively. It meant that I
could kind of right them as like a traditional story arc,
and we didn't explore the complexities of what it means
to be in either of those roles and the sort
of range that humans have. Whereas this series, obviously you've
(14:40):
got someone who the justice system believes committed a crime
and she is saying she didn't, And when you start
to explore her story, you can really understand why it's
a really complicated thing to label someone as a bad guy,
because it's not always that simple. There's lots of reasons
why people end up in difficult criminal situations.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
I do think that there is more space for understanding
the complexity of the human experience, especially in the audio format.
Life is not black and white, crimes aren't black and white.
What happens in the aftermath is in black and white totally.
Speaker 4 (15:22):
Yeah, And I mean that's a huge part of the
series is that you hear me wrestling with that idea
of like, what kind of person do we accept as
just being a victim of something? Because actually there is
a playbook that we expect victims to play by and
if you don't play by that, and if something bad
happens in your life and you end up involved in
(15:43):
something criminal, you do end up being charged with a crime.
You know that happens time and time again that people
who just don't seem victimy enough they end up going
to prison because that looks like a villain, it doesn't
look like a victim. And that's yeah, screwed up but
interesting to explore.
Speaker 1 (16:04):
Yeah, it is, and it's delicate and it's really tough.
And we do have this saying on the Betrayal Limited
you know, there are no perfect victims and how relatable
is that? You know, that is what you say to
your girlfriend's over at coffee that I think we should
give more space to in you know, various formats, not
(16:28):
just audio but TV too, and those conversations. I think
people are having more open mindedness to different types of victims.
And I do think we're seeing a change, don't you.
Speaker 3 (16:39):
I think so.
Speaker 1 (16:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 4 (16:40):
I think the tides are turning.
Speaker 3 (16:43):
And what have you got coming up right now?
Speaker 1 (16:45):
We are actively putting out episodes for season four of
Betrayal of the Limited Run, and this season tells the
story about a woman whose husband is a police officer
with the Colorado Springs Police Department, and he not only
betrays her but also his community and really unpacks a
lifetime of lies and what that does for your lived experience.
Speaker 3 (17:05):
I mean, it's really wild to sit with people who.
Speaker 1 (17:10):
Have to go back twenty years and talk about, well,
I thought the birth of my son was one way,
and now I've learned new information twenty years later, and
that day was fundamentally changed for.
Speaker 3 (17:21):
Me as well.
Speaker 1 (17:22):
As we really go into policies and things that happen
internally at the Colorado Springs Police Department, and we got
access to this incredible tape his entire Ia files that
were all recorded, and so we have hours and hours
of footage and just hearing him basically just lie to
his colleagues and his bosses, and it really just shows,
(17:45):
you know, if he's doing this internally at his job,
what is he doing to his wife? And we kind
of just explore that. It's really fascinating. And then starting
in August, we are putting out season two of the
Always On for Betrayal so News story Weekly, which is exciting.
Speaker 3 (18:01):
Busy, we're both busy.
Speaker 1 (18:04):
Yeah, it's been a pleasure speaking with you, and thank
you so much for your time.
Speaker 4 (18:09):
Thank you so much.
Speaker 3 (18:10):
And I'm going to listen to that series.
Speaker 4 (18:12):
I'm Benjinette. It sounds amazing.
Speaker 1 (18:15):
Thank you, thanks for listening. Check out The girlfriend Spotlight
and the next season of The Girlfriends coming July fourteenth.
Speaker 5 (18:40):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email
us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com.
Speaker 2 (18:51):
We're grateful for your support.
Speaker 5 (18:53):
One way to show support is by subscribing to our
show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
review Betrayal five star reviews, Go A long Way, A
big thank you to all.
Speaker 1 (19:03):
Of our listeners.
Speaker 5 (19:05):
Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of
Glass Entertainment Group and partnership.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
With iHeart Podcasts.
Speaker 3 (19:11):
The show is executive produced by.
Speaker 5 (19:13):
Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me
Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced
by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Kristin Mercury and Caitlin Golden.
Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krinchech. Audio
editing and mixing by mattel Vecchio.
Speaker 1 (19:33):
Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by
mob of Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, visit
the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
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