July 10, 2025 • 43 mins
Karoline unpacks her healing journey with Kristin Snowden, an expert in betrayal trauma recovery.
For resources on betrayal trauma and more from Kristin Snowden, visit kristinsnowden.com.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey guys.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're
looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series,
which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel
ready to share your story, now is a great time
to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail
dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It is not to your detriment that you have loved
and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You,
unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was
so invested in keeping you out of his whole double
life that he was living and used every tactic in
(00:46):
the world to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode
eight Solace. Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout
of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When
you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.
(01:27):
At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour,
the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself
to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline
is reaching the point where she can start to truly
process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with
Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's
(01:49):
a licensed marriage and Family therapist in the state of
California and a certified life coach.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises
that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction
or infidelity, and that's either chemical addictions or process addictions
such as sex, peorn love addiction.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to
use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with
a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process
addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the
brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clinicians
(02:36):
used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process
addiction that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial
and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This
is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't
real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria can be misunderstood.
(03:01):
Misused or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction
to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught.
You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed
to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do
what I did, but I literally was not in my
right mind.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any
addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as
an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term
in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand
for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of
the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both
(03:52):
chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors, but in the
last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.
She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and
she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources
for those navigating relationship crises.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and
education that they deserve that I think is going to
help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins
with this metaphor.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Something that we do all day, every day is we drive.
And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted
that everybody else around us is going to follow the
rules of the road, and that is what we're doing.
When we're in these long term relationships with our partners,
we have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules
that we're going to give each other the benefit of doubt,
(04:52):
We're going to do our best to do no harm.
We're going to follow the rules and move along in
the correct way together. And then all of a sudden,
when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying,
sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you
every day to just go do the basic things like
(05:12):
just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop
your kids off. But oh, by the way, no one's
going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you
make it there.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Suddenly the drive, the simple drive that you took for
granted every single day, becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul
sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you,
and that is like the best metaphor I have to
help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through
(05:43):
from the minute they find out what their partner's done
and onward.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been
left to pick up the pieces in the wake of
their partner's betrayal.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
She's my qui essential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her,
if not thousands.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of
this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts
from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem
she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge. In
the city she calls home, all she sees are places
where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize
(06:29):
her husband's affairs.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
There's really only one way to drive to our local airport,
and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I
can do is think about this is where he did
this at, This is where he did this at. How
many people did he meet in this area? How many
times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in
me how do you.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Feel in your body when you're driving to the airport
and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces. What
does it feel like.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
It could be the coldest morning in Colorado, and I
will start sweating when I reach that area of town.
I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need
to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my
brain just starts churning. This is the area where he
(07:18):
did this? How many times did he meet someone? It
will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and
replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when
I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it
just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that
is so aggravating is that I have no control over it.
(07:41):
I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.
I think that I am a strong female, but I
will tell you that if you want to test someone's
ability to stay strong, go through this and have to
live it every day.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's
really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes
betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD, doesn't really fall in
that because you know, it has to be life threatening event,
and people don't consider these things to be life threatening.
But I mean, I can imagine you feel like you
(08:21):
have PTSD symptoms.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by
the fact that my kids and I say, unless it
was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call
law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
M I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to
people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations
like abused by the people in charge, and then shunned
and ignored and never validated or supported by their community.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
You know, I pride myself in being someone who can
compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle
to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back
and my head high. Constantly running into his colleagues.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are
experiencing when they see you.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids,
Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault
because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.
I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually like
he pointed the finger at me. And this is also
the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.
(09:39):
They're thinking to their selves, we know what Joel did.
We've been told that you're the reason why this happened.
He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't
getting it at home. He needed to go find it
around the community. This is all your fault. You caused
him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary
write ups, it actually says Joel disc us that he
(10:00):
was having problems with his wife at home. It's like
everyone heard this narrative, but me. I didn't know this.
In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life.
I didn't know that this was being put on blast
about me.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, what is that like? On top of the shame
that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your
intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole
double life, what is that like to have this community
where they're blaming you or using your parent marital life
(10:41):
to justify his behavior.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos
in my life. And to have to have this pretend
face and this very low affect to not show emotion
was miserable, and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue
(11:04):
to try to have this pretend normal at work. It
doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community
events where I see police officers who stare at me
and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in
a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew
up our lives. About a month and a week later,
she was te boned and hit by a driver. And
(11:30):
when I went out to the scene to see her,
thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment,
cops were pulling up to the scene, and I could
hear them. They didn't even care that we were there,
what we had just gone through. I could hear them,
Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh
(11:51):
my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now?
I could hear them.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
In like your moment of raw vulnerability.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yes, I am for my daughter. I am terrified seeing
how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in
that moment it's thrown in my face.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma
has been being lied to. I can imagine it being
just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you
continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling
you that you're to blame. There is such a healing
and release of trauma that happens when a community can
(12:33):
share in validating that what happened was not okay, and
that was scary and that rocked our world. And I
just I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing
that you live in a community where there's just a
lack of empathy for what you and the kids have
gone through.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I
think it is the belief of a false narrative.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
What do you tell you about why they can kind
of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in
holding on to Joel's story.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self
loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel.
I mean I initially carried this guilt when he looked
at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough.
You were paying more attention to the kids than you
did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me,
(13:31):
And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought,
oh my god, were we having sex enough? Did I
show you that I loved you? Did I pay more
attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got
in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until
I know the extent of what he did. When it
became reality, I was able to let go some of
that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who
(13:54):
was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he
was friendly and got along with people, and he supported
his own and all of these things. My husband lived
a double life. And in my gut, I believe that
he is an extremely intelligent man, and I do think
that he knew as things were progressing he was about
(14:16):
ready to be caught and he needed to start shifting
the blame or provide excuses and people believe him.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the
vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,
that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in
love and they can hurt you the most. I think
that hits too close to home for most people. So
they have to package it up in a way that
(14:44):
makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to
think that my partner can just go out have a
bunch of sex with somebody else, lie sninak around, keep
doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of
that would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of
that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I
(15:08):
have to make your story different so I can go
back and carry on in my life. So the story
has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well,
I give my partner enough sex, and that just others
her in a way where it allows me to just
not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying
to say?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
It makes sense, like a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems
to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.
No one blames the wife or the spouse or a
partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction.
There's just something about the fact that in people's brains
(15:56):
they want to make it a relational problem when it
is not a relational problem. What I always say is
it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens, that will,
as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them
from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel
(16:17):
even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the
person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we
talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough?
Were you nagging? I mean it does nothing but harm.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and
life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
The other night, I was at a very popular brewery
and I walk in and I'm standing in line, and
I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and
it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble,
he turned to this person and he goes over, opens
(17:16):
his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one
of these where I just kept my arms straight down,
you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Like you had a physiological response to him.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, we don't need to have physical contact. I do
not want to hug you. We are not friends. I
know what you have said about me.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff, and
he was like, how are you And I just stopped
him and I said, you know what, I know all
of the horrible things you have said about me and
the blame you have placed on me, there's no need
for us to talk. And he looked at me and
he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay.
(17:56):
But for the first time in a long time, it
felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
What do you think the difference was? Why now?
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I think the difference at this point is that I
know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt
like this could never happen to anyone else, and this
almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions
onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment.
You know, that was one of the things that drew
(18:31):
me in with the podcast, as hearing, oh my god,
like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I
feel like in my past life I was this pretty
confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had
been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put
a weight of constant insecurity on me. Just constant and
(18:54):
it's been a really long time since I have been
able to keep my head up really long time.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
It's common for us to feel less confident and standing
in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who
are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where
you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location.
Where are you? No, you're crazy, No, I don't know
what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant
(19:24):
environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and
then after he left, you were living in this world
where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not
extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very
painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled
(19:47):
so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing
to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question
your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty
of betrayal.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yes, spot on.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're
responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances.
Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna
have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like
is this a red flag or is this like a
trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me.
(20:26):
And so it's just really important to have a couple
people in your community where you can bounce this off
of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the
most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one
of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do
(20:48):
it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right.
People come to me because their lives have been devastated
and turn upside down because they have opened their heart
and their life to a person and they have just
been lied to and their whole lives destroy their families
destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes
(21:09):
is to say, well, and now you need to go
to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell, no,
I've exposed myself enough.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like
many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops,
but eventually she decided to give them a shot and
she joined a group. Kristin runs for betrayed partners.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
One of the big pieces of why I fell in
that category was because it's hard to believe there are
evil humans out there that would do the same thing
to other innocent people. And then being in that group hearing,
(21:57):
oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah,
and replace my name with your name, and our stories
are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked
a very similar path. You feel so alone though at
the beginning when it happens, like this could not happen
to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and
(22:20):
family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages
and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little
island by yourself that no one else would really understand.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, and what has it been like to be in
a group where you're around several women who are betrayed
partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that been
like to hear all those stories?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely
some validation.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And I always think it's very interesting. One of the
miss about betrayal trauma is we think that this the
person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and
lied to is this passive person that just kind of
gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners,
and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely
(23:14):
clear about what they want, what they need, and it
just shows the manipulation power that their attic partners.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Use one hundred percent accurate.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are
just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had
these great children, and then just got side swiped and
blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.
And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact,
(23:47):
living their lives, trying to be the best parents they
can be, be the best partners that they can be,
and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive
and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far
off their radar. That is why they are kind of
victimized over such a long period of time. That is
(24:08):
why they are often so primed to let their partners
lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes,
And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman, you're
well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have
these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of
(24:29):
people's lists, Like they can't write the story that you
were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry.
I mean, because you're just You're none of those things.
You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that
happen to marry an unhealthy person and you are still
(24:51):
suffering the consequences.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you,
thank you. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
It is not to your detriment that you have loved
and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.
You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested
in keeping you out of his whole double life that
he was living and used every tactic in the world
(25:29):
to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I heard from multiple family members and then some of
his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the
divorce as a tool to garner sympathy. His comment to
people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me.
You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me
(25:53):
through getting the therapy I needed. You know, she just
wanted to run right away. That was one of the
things that he had told people, and it had been
used against me. Of well, if you really loved him,
you would have stuck it out with him.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Well and better. Yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned
with the fact that there are consequences to every action
is understanding that these are the typical consequences that come
with that behavior. I've made bad choices, and I lied,
and I snuck around, and I broke my vows, and
I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety.
(26:31):
And it's heartbreaking and horrible, and I wish that wasn't
the case. I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean, those
are words of someone who's moving through recovery. His words
are more reflective somebody who's just always constantly building that
wall of entitlement. I work so hard. I'm entitled to
go do this. She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to
go do this. I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled
(26:53):
to go do this. It's my birthday. I'm titled to
go do this. I had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to
go do this. Those are dangerous, dangerous people That is
not a sign of someone who is, as we say
in the twelve step world, who's humbled and surrendered. The
sign of someone who's always setting up justification, rationale and
entitlement to go out and do what they want to
(27:15):
do because I get to and they are not thinking
about the family system, they are not thinking about their
values and goals, they're not definitely not thinking about the
true consequences to their behaviors, and those are all things
required for someone to live in recovery.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
It was funny because you actually said this to me
last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck,
of like did I give it my all? Should I
have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to
stay with him in sickness and in health.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
As a reminder. Caroline made the decision to leave the
marriage after she got a call from a case manager
at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Cane that
Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction
she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously, and
when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided
(28:11):
their marriage was irreparable.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And that's why I tried to separate our lives as
quick as I could.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories
of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were
trying to repair their marriages.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I took pause for a second of seeing these women
really try and then saying, you know, I think I'm
to the point now where I can walk away because
I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I
had a moment of I should have exhausted all efforts.
Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two
of them did say it, I wish I would have
(28:50):
left right away, And like after we hung up, I
just I don't know, I just like cried and cried
and cried just because because it was validating. There's so
many things that just you replan your head, like did
I should I could I even though I know I
(29:14):
did the right thing, but hearing someone say I wish
I did that, it just felt validating.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And like we said that, in any given group, there's
always a story in your head that should I have
tried harder, should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah,
for sure, you know, having hope that they'll change, and
then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when
(29:45):
you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going
to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do
work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot
and change, so I always say it's okay to leave,
and it's okay stay. But especially the betrayed partners who
don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what really happened,
(30:09):
a full understanding of why they did what they did,
with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work
to understand their poor coping skills and what led them
to do these behaviors and what was really going on
in their head. It is so hard for betrayed partners
to move through and heal without that closure.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about
healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in
her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together
and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're
kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle,
the ones who know the full story. But one of
the things about being in that circle is that they've
seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward,
(31:24):
attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy, and they've seen
me go from very very scared to start dating to
I'm going to rip the band aid off and go
on my first date, or I think I'll hang out
with this person for a little bit. This person is
not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want
around me, and I will make excuses very quick to
(31:48):
not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way.
And then there's been times where I have thought, I
just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather
run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time,
(32:08):
maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone
who is just if you just saw this person. My
joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean,
this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing,
has done good service for the community and to his country.
(32:31):
And there are times where I have been getting ready
to hang out with him and I will literally be
putting them on my makeup and think to myself, you
should run tonight. Tonight's the night you should just go
to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.
And I can't really tell you why. It's just this
feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.
(32:56):
Nothing has gone wrong, there's been no red flag. There's
nothing except this internal voice in me that says you're
starting to let your guard down, protect yourself, go go now.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
You know this supper club that I do. I took
a chance and invited him to supper club. He walked
in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for
being late. Something came up with his kids. He was
just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No,
an hour late, not even close, nothing like that. But
in that moment, I thought, there it is, there's your reason.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Do it.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Do it now? Just ridiculous. And one of my friends
in supper club actually said, do not let this be
this reason that you let something good go. Don't do it.
So I know people see it and I know it,
but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Well, honestly, because because once you've had your instincts and
intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and being told, oh, it's
night outside, when the sun is beaming in your eyes.
It's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass
of what's safe and what's not safe when we have
(34:19):
these wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because
understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to
push them away because we're sitting there getting ready for
the date. We should be happy. We tell ourselves what
we should be right. This is a good person, it's
great that we're dating. As you said, all the moms
(34:39):
of the world would love him. So we instinctively want
to push out that scared part that's screaming out. But
you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive,
which is go into that part and learn more and
it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared
part will tell you.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom
like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we
view it as like a scared child or even a
scared teenager, and you listen to it like a mom
because you're not judging it, you're not saying, oh, what's
wrong with you? This guy's great, Like stop it, shut up.
(35:26):
Instead you can say, like, what's scary? All right? How
can I help you feel safe? What do we know
now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get
through this? And then you and I talked about this before.
But it's also all about the repair attempt that happens
(35:47):
once you bring this to the person you're dating. You
now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered
the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness
does not just mean being to me. There's this amazing
repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship where
this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell
(36:11):
you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry
this made you feel scared or upset. I'm sorry this
triggered a history, but let me help you feel safe
for this time.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
So it's interesting that you bring that last part up
because I wanted to be fair and I actually told
him about the podcast, and so telling him about the
podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history.
And I admit that I not only told him to
(36:44):
be fair, but I also told him, because there was
this piece of me that was like, so you're going
to hear this and you're going to see just the
insanity that I've had to experience. Let me see if
I can get you to run. And his response was
I think you're really brave.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Wow. And how healing was that sentence.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
It was just like oh my god, oh my God,
like thank you. It had been a really long time
to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends, my
friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity
and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into
(37:33):
and what I was going through. But for him to
have taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions,
and then ended it with I think you're really brave.
It took this weight off of me and to have
just this pause for wait, there is some humanity in this.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also
say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own,
because these are severe attachment wounds. These are wounds that
came due to others breaking your heart and betraying you.
So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to
(38:24):
occur in a relationship setting and as you mentioned, good friends, family,
But your brain has to find new evidence that your
ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you
can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries
(38:45):
and keeping other safe people around you for a checks
and balance system. But these are the rule. He was
the exception. These are the rule, and you can still
feel safe and vulnerable with these people.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's tough, though, Oh it's scary.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for
a second. What is different, you know, update those scared
parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married,
and I'm not locked into this need to believe or
feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone.
That I am my own authority. I can make my
(39:35):
own decisions on this and don't need to believe anyone
for anything.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, I always say I never let someone tell me
what my reality in my experience is. You never get
to tell me that. And even if even if I
am inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that
you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line
is my experiences, I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling
(40:04):
safe in this relationship. I'm experiencing in congruencies that are
making me want to pull away. I don't feel respected,
I don't feel like you're hearing me, And those are
all important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to
feel safe with other people, and so when I don't,
it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, Okay,
(40:27):
what is happening that's making me not feel safe. A
partner who loves you, who considers you a partner guy,
should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe,
be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the
way you approach issues that aren't working. But from the
part's work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're
(40:50):
not bad, but you have to dive deeper into that
part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And
then the other piece is to let them know this
is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep
myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I
was deprived of all the information I needed to keep
(41:11):
myself safe. I didn't even know what I didn't even know,
but look how much more I know now.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea. This means so
much to me. The fact that I have this clarity
and insight now, I just I can't thank you enough.
A quick note.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Before we end, Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and
parts work, which are just two approaches to dealing with
trauma responses. Kristin recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence
based trauma therapy practices such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brainspotting, and
internal family systems work. It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic
(41:52):
care to work with a license professional. If you want
more from Kristen, go to her website Kristensnowden dot com.
We've linked in the show notes. On the next episode
of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is a marathon.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Well, this is the first year that we have actually
gotten into steak my brother just across the finish line.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
On Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If
you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to
follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.
(42:39):
Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
One way to.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Support the series is by subscribing to our show on
Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star reviews
help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is
a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced
by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is hosted and
(43:05):
produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden,
also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our associate
producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, Audio editing
and mixing by Matt Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins, Special
(43:27):
thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks to
Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts
Hey guys.
Speaker 2 (00:01):
Before we get into the episode, a quick note. We're
looking for news stories of betrayal for our weekly Betrayal series,
which returns in August. If you've experienced betrayal and feel
ready to share your story, now is a great time
to reach out. Email us at Betrayal Pod at gmail
dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com.
Speaker 1 (00:26):
It is not to your detriment that you have loved
and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person. You,
unfortunately just got an unhealthy, really sick person who was
so invested in keeping you out of his whole double
life that he was living and used every tactic in
(00:46):
the world to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 2 (01:03):
I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrayal, Season four, Episode
eight Solace. Caroline Brega has been dealing with the fallout
of her husband's betrayal for more than three years. When
you've been married for half your life, the recovery is long, unpredictable.
(01:27):
At the beginning, it's just about getting through the next hour,
the next twenty four hours, being able to get yourself
to work or show up for your kids. Now, Caroline
is reaching the point where she can start to truly
process and heal from that experience. We connected Caroline with
Kristen Snowden, an expert in betrayal, trauma, and infidelity. She's
(01:49):
a licensed marriage and Family therapist in the state of
California and a certified life coach.
Speaker 1 (01:56):
My specialty is helping couples and individuals navigate relationship crises
that have been brought upon by uncovering an unknown addiction
or infidelity, and that's either chemical addictions or process addictions
such as sex, peorn love addiction.
Speaker 2 (02:16):
Addiction is a loaded term and one we want to
use carefully. Most of us know someone who struggled with
a chemical addiction, like one to alcohol or opioids. Process
addictions are different. They involve compulsive behaviors that activate the
brain's reward system. The DSM five, the official manual clinicians
(02:36):
used to diagnose mental health disorders, only recognizes one process
addiction that's gambling disorder. Others, like sex addiction, remain controversial
and are not officially classified as mental health diagnoses. This
is not to say the experience of sex addiction isn't
real and valid, but without a diagnostic criteria can be misunderstood.
(03:01):
Misused or even abused. Joel began using the word addiction
to describe his behavior, but only after he was caught.
You'll remember the text he sent Caroline from rehab.
Speaker 3 (03:14):
Low self esteem, self hatred, depression, anxiety, addiction all contributed
to my behavior and actions, saying people would not do
what I did, but I literally was not in my
right mind.
Speaker 2 (03:29):
We don't know if Joel has been diagnosed with any
addictions to substances, but because Joel referred to himself as
an addict, you'll hear Kristen and Caroline use that term
in this conversation. They're also using it as a shorthand
for his compulsive and destructive behavior. Kristen started one of
the first dual diagnosis treatment programs for people with both
(03:52):
chemical addictions and sexual acting out behaviors, but in the
last ten years, her focus has shifted to helping betrayed partners.
She runs groups for those that have been betrayed, and
she has a YouTube channel where she shares free resources
for those navigating relationship crises.
Speaker 1 (04:11):
I want betrayed partners to have that specialty training and
education that they deserve that I think is going to
help launch them into the ability to heal from these traumas.
Speaker 2 (04:24):
When Kristen first meets with new clients, she often begins
with this metaphor.
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Something that we do all day, every day is we drive.
And what we do is we're essentially taking for granted
that everybody else around us is going to follow the
rules of the road, and that is what we're doing.
When we're in these long term relationships with our partners,
we have very direct, spoken rules but also unspoken rules
that we're going to give each other the benefit of doubt,
(04:52):
We're going to do our best to do no harm.
We're going to follow the rules and move along in
the correct way together. And then all of a sudden,
when you uncover that your partner is capable of lying,
sneaking around. It is as if someone is asking you
every day to just go do the basic things like
(05:12):
just go drive with the grocery store, just go drop
your kids off. But oh, by the way, no one's
going to follow the rules of the road. Hope you
make it there.
Speaker 4 (05:20):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (05:22):
Suddenly the drive, the simple drive that you took for
granted every single day, becomes the most terrifying, hypervigilant, soul
sucking experience because you don't know what's coming at you,
and that is like the best metaphor I have to
help people understand what these betrayed partners are going through
(05:43):
from the minute they find out what their partner's done
and onward.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Kristin often works with people like Caroline, people who've been
left to pick up the pieces in the wake of
their partner's betrayal.
Speaker 1 (05:59):
She's my qui essential client. Unfortunately, I've seen hundreds of her,
if not thousands.
Speaker 2 (06:07):
Kristin met with Caroline several times over the course of
this season. With their permission, we'd like to share excerpts
from those sessions with you. Caroline started with the problem
she confronts often in her life, feeling on edge. In
the city she calls home, all she sees are places
where Joel arranged his meetups. These are landmarks that memorialize
(06:29):
her husband's affairs.
Speaker 4 (06:31):
There's really only one way to drive to our local airport,
and I hate the drive. I hate it. All I
can do is think about this is where he did
this at, This is where he did this at. How
many people did he meet in this area? How many
times did this occur? Like it is just repetitive in
me how do you.
Speaker 1 (06:48):
Feel in your body when you're driving to the airport
and you're crossing all those triggering places and spaces. What
does it feel like.
Speaker 4 (06:56):
It could be the coldest morning in Colorado, and I
will start sweating when I reach that area of town.
I will have my heat completely turned off. I'll need
to crack the window, and the nausea starts, and my
brain just starts churning. This is the area where he
(07:18):
did this? How many times did he meet someone? It
will just continuously churn and I'll keep playing it and
replaying it and replaying it even after I park, when
I'm bringing my luggage up, when I'm checking in, it
just continuously plays in me. The piece of it that
is so aggravating is that I have no control over it.
(07:41):
I'm still reliving it every time I drive that route.
I think that I am a strong female, but I
will tell you that if you want to test someone's
ability to stay strong, go through this and have to
live it every day.
Speaker 1 (07:58):
Right. That's why I always think it's interesting. But there's
really no such thing in the diagnostic manuals that categorizes
betrayal as a form of TRAUMADTSD, doesn't really fall in
that because you know, it has to be life threatening event,
and people don't consider these things to be life threatening.
But I mean, I can imagine you feel like you
(08:21):
have PTSD symptoms.
Speaker 4 (08:24):
I know I do, and I think it's evidenced by
the fact that my kids and I say, unless it
was an absolute life threatening event, we will never call
law enforcement.
Speaker 1 (08:36):
M I'm sorry. It's like a systemic betrayal, similar to
people who've been betrayed to by the like religious organizations
like abused by the people in charge, and then shunned
and ignored and never validated or supported by their community.
Speaker 4 (08:56):
You know, I pride myself in being someone who can
compartmentalize and keep myself together, but it is a struggle
to keep every emotion in and keep my shoulders back
and my head high. Constantly running into his colleagues.
Speaker 1 (09:11):
What's the story you're telling yourself about what they are
experiencing when they see you.
Speaker 4 (09:17):
When life blew up. Initially to me and my kids,
Joel said it was my fault. It was my fault
because we weren't having sex as much as he wanted to.
I wasn't doing things that he wanted to sexually like
he pointed the finger at me. And this is also
the narrative that he started telling all of his employment.
(09:39):
They're thinking to their selves, we know what Joel did.
We've been told that you're the reason why this happened.
He had to go seek sex elsewhere because he wasn't
getting it at home. He needed to go find it
around the community. This is all your fault. You caused
him to lose his job. In one of his disciplinary
write ups, it actually says Joel disc us that he
(10:00):
was having problems with his wife at home. It's like
everyone heard this narrative, but me. I didn't know this.
In my world, we were living this really blessed, utopian life.
I didn't know that this was being put on blast
about me.
Speaker 1 (10:19):
Yeah, what is that like? On top of the shame
that you just generally experienced from being betrayed by your
intimate partner and finding out that he's led this whole
double life, what is that like to have this community
where they're blaming you or using your parent marital life
(10:41):
to justify his behavior.
Speaker 4 (10:43):
It just continued to involve this constant nausea and chaos
in my life. And to have to have this pretend
face and this very low affect to not show emotion
was miserable, and it definitely doesn't feel sustainable to continue
(11:04):
to try to have this pretend normal at work. It
doesn't feel good to have this pretend normal at community
events where I see police officers who stare at me
and my kids when we're together. My daughter was in
a car accident her junior year, shortly after he blew
up our lives. About a month and a week later,
she was te boned and hit by a driver. And
(11:30):
when I went out to the scene to see her,
thank god, she was okay. But even in that moment,
cops were pulling up to the scene, and I could
hear them. They didn't even care that we were there,
what we had just gone through. I could hear them,
Oh my god, there's Kern's wife and his kid. Oh
(11:51):
my god, can you believe that he's in rehab right now?
I could hear them.
Speaker 1 (11:56):
In like your moment of raw vulnerability.
Speaker 4 (11:58):
Yes, I am for my daughter. I am terrified seeing
how she looks. She's just an absolute shock. Even in
that moment it's thrown in my face.
Speaker 1 (12:11):
It must be overwhelming, especially when part of your trauma
has been being lied to. I can imagine it being
just even more frustrating, to say the least, that you
continue to be surrounded by a community that keeps telling
you that you're to blame. There is such a healing
and release of trauma that happens when a community can
(12:33):
share in validating that what happened was not okay, and
that was scary and that rocked our world. And I
just I'm so sad that you've been denied. I'm hearing
that you live in a community where there's just a
lack of empathy for what you and the kids have
gone through.
Speaker 4 (12:53):
I think it's not only a lack of empathy. I
think it is the belief of a false narrative.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
What do you tell you about why they can kind
of be so non empathetic, why they're so invested in
holding on to Joel's story.
Speaker 4 (13:09):
Hear me out because I'm going to sound very self
loathing while I say this. I did it. I believe Joel.
I mean I initially carried this guilt when he looked
at me and he said, well, we weren't having sex enough.
You were paying more attention to the kids than you
did to me. I didn't feel like you loved me,
(13:31):
And in the moments of it, I doubted myself. I thought,
oh my god, were we having sex enough? Did I
show you that I loved you? Did I pay more
attention to the kids than you? I mean, he got
in my head when he was excusing his behaviors until
I know the extent of what he did. When it
became reality, I was able to let go some of
that guilt and that burden. But this was someone who
(13:54):
was extremely well liked within the department. You know, he
was friendly and got along with people, and he supported
his own and all of these things. My husband lived
a double life. And in my gut, I believe that
he is an extremely intelligent man, and I do think
that he knew as things were progressing he was about
(14:16):
ready to be caught and he needed to start shifting
the blame or provide excuses and people believe him.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
When betrayal happens in a relationship, in a marriage, the
vulnerability of the fact that that can happen to anybody,
that you can be blindsided by someone you trust in
love and they can hurt you the most. I think
that hits too close to home for most people. So
they have to package it up in a way that
(14:44):
makes you different than them. You know, it's scary to
think that my partner can just go out have a
bunch of sex with somebody else, lie sninak around, keep
doing it. If I really sat with the vulnerability of
that would just lock me up, Like the powerlessness of
that is just too scary. As a defense mechanism, I
(15:08):
have to make your story different so I can go
back and carry on in my life. So the story
has to be Caroline didn't give him enough sex. Well,
I give my partner enough sex, and that just others
her in a way where it allows me to just
not feel the vulnerability. Do you get what I'm trying
to say?
Speaker 4 (15:25):
It makes sense, like a lot of sense.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
It's just in this realm of infidelities where there seems
to be this really strong focus on the betrayed partner.
No one blames the wife or the spouse or a
partner for someone's heroin addiction, except for someone's gambling addiction.
There's just something about the fact that in people's brains
(15:56):
they want to make it a relational problem when it
is not a relational problem. What I always say is
it's like this additional trauma and abuse that happens, that will,
as you're saying, shut a betrayed partner down, stop them
from wanting to share their story, cause them to feel
(16:17):
even more isolated after they've already been betrayed by the
person they've made themselves most exposed to. Why are we
talking about, like, well, did you have sex with them enough?
Were you nagging? I mean it does nothing but harm.
Speaker 2 (16:48):
Caroline is talking to Kristen Snowden, a licensed therapist and
life coach who specializes in betrayal trauma.
Speaker 4 (16:56):
The other night, I was at a very popular brewery
and I walk in and I'm standing in line, and
I hear Caroline, and I turn and I look and
it's one of Joel's best friends. When Joel got in trouble,
he turned to this person and he goes over, opens
(17:16):
his arm, gives me a hug. I did like one
of these where I just kept my arms straight down,
you know, like I don't want you to physically touch me.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Like you had a physiological response to him.
Speaker 4 (17:26):
Yes, we don't need to have physical contact. I do
not want to hug you. We are not friends. I
know what you have said about me.
Speaker 3 (17:33):
You know.
Speaker 4 (17:34):
I just kept my arms straight down, very stiff, and
he was like, how are you And I just stopped
him and I said, you know what, I know all
of the horrible things you have said about me and
the blame you have placed on me, there's no need
for us to talk. And he looked at me and
he kind of got this smirk and he said, okay.
(17:56):
But for the first time in a long time, it
felt empowering to not take it, to not engage in it.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
What do you think the difference was? Why now?
Speaker 4 (18:09):
I think the difference at this point is that I
know I'm not alone. For a long time, I felt
like this could never happen to anyone else, and this
almost shame and guilt and the personification of Joel's actions
onto me and my kids just filled me with embarrassment.
You know, that was one of the things that drew
(18:31):
me in with the podcast, as hearing, oh my god,
like this happened to someone else. Since everything happened, I
feel like in my past life I was this pretty
confident person, but since my ex husband's secret life had
been revealed to me, I mean, it just really put
a weight of constant insecurity on me. Just constant and
(18:54):
it's been a really long time since I have been
able to keep my head up really long time.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
It's common for us to feel less confident and standing
in our own reality when we're surrounded by people who
are questioning our reality. There was so many elements where
you were saying, look, this is you're in a different location.
Where are you? No, you're crazy, No, I don't know
what's wrong with you. So you were in a constant
(19:24):
environment with him where he was questioning your reality, and
then after he left, you were living in this world
where everyone was kind of validating his narrative and not
extending grace and empathy towards you in a very very
painful way. So I could completely understand why you've struggled
(19:47):
so much to stand in your confidence. It's so traumatizing
to have someone dismantle your instincts and intuition and question
your reality, question your sanity. It is a huge casualty
of betrayal.
Speaker 4 (20:03):
Yes, spot on.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
I always say like, you've been traumatized, and now you're
responsible for trying your best to mitigate those unfortunate circumstances.
Right that you now have a traumatized body, you're gonna
have trauma triggers, trauma responses. It gets really confusing, like
is this a red flag or is this like a
trauma response, a trauma trigger that's coming up for me.
(20:26):
And so it's just really important to have a couple
people in your community where you can bounce this off
of and validate. Am I crazy? Because it's just the
most benign things you find yourself questioning. That is one
of the healing pathways after being betrayed. You can't do
(20:48):
it on your own, no, And so it's this counterintuitive thing, right.
People come to me because their lives have been devastated
and turn upside down because they have opened their heart
and their life to a person and they have just
been lied to and their whole lives destroy their families
destroyed because of it. And one of my treatment processes
(21:09):
is to say, well, and now you need to go
to a group, and most understandably so they say, hell, no,
I've exposed myself enough.
Speaker 2 (21:21):
I'm popping in here for just a second. Caroline, like
many people who've been betrayed, was initially resistant to group workshops,
but eventually she decided to give them a shot and
she joined a group. Kristin runs for betrayed partners.
Speaker 4 (21:37):
One of the big pieces of why I fell in
that category was because it's hard to believe there are
evil humans out there that would do the same thing
to other innocent people. And then being in that group hearing,
(21:57):
oh my god, this happened to all of you. Yeah,
and replace my name with your name, and our stories
are almost parallel to each other. I mean, we walked
a very similar path. You feel so alone though at
the beginning when it happens, like this could not happen
to anyone else, especially when you're surrounded with friends and
(22:20):
family members who assumedly are living these very healthy marriages
and healthy relationships, and like you're just on this little
island by yourself that no one else would really understand.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
Yeah, and what has it been like to be in
a group where you're around several women who are betrayed
partners of sex addicts, And I mean, what's that been
like to hear all those stories?
Speaker 4 (22:47):
There's been I mean a great sense of camaraderie, definitely
some validation.
Speaker 1 (22:53):
And I always think it's very interesting. One of the
miss about betrayal trauma is we think that this the
person that got betrayed, the person that got bamboozled and
lied to is this passive person that just kind of
gets fooled. But so often I run into betrayed partners,
and in every other facet of their life, they're extremely
(23:14):
clear about what they want, what they need, and it
just shows the manipulation power that their attic partners.
Speaker 4 (23:22):
Use one hundred percent accurate.
Speaker 1 (23:26):
You've seen in these groups, these phenomenal women who are
just so smart, have these careers, had these lives, had
these great children, and then just got side swiped and
blindsided by their partner's behavior that they had no idea.
And these betrayed partners often are so busy, in fact,
(23:47):
living their lives, trying to be the best parents they
can be, be the best partners that they can be,
and don't even realize that people can lie and deceive
and commit illegal acts. All of those are so far
off their radar. That is why they are kind of
victimized over such a long period of time. That is
(24:08):
why they are often so primed to let their partners
lies kind of trump their own instincts and intuition. Yes, yes,
And I'm just gonna say, you're a beautiful woman, you're
well spoken, you're educated, you have this career, you have
these kids, and it just starts taking stories off of
(24:29):
people's lists, Like they can't write the story that you
were unattractive, or you were crazy, or you were money hungry.
I mean, because you're just You're none of those things.
You're a high functioning, attractive, loving, stable human being that
happen to marry an unhealthy person and you are still
(24:51):
suffering the consequences.
Speaker 4 (24:54):
Thank you for saying that. That makes me like, thank you,
thank you. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1 (25:07):
It is not to your detriment that you have loved
and made yourself willing to be vulnerable to another person.
You unfortunately just got the person who was so invested
in keeping you out of his whole double life that
he was living and used every tactic in the world
(25:29):
to keep you blind to that.
Speaker 4 (25:32):
I heard from multiple family members and then some of
his subsequent online paramours. He actually used me filing the
divorce as a tool to garner sympathy. His comment to
people was, I was sick and Caroline wouldn't work with me.
You know, Caroline wouldn't stay with me and see me
(25:53):
through getting the therapy I needed. You know, she just
wanted to run right away. That was one of the
things that he had told people, and it had been
used against me. Of well, if you really loved him,
you would have stuck it out with him.
Speaker 1 (26:06):
Well and better. Yet, someone in recovery who's really reckoned
with the fact that there are consequences to every action
is understanding that these are the typical consequences that come
with that behavior. I've made bad choices, and I lied,
and I snuck around, and I broke my vows, and
I exposed my family to a lot of uncertainty and unsafety.
(26:31):
And it's heartbreaking and horrible, and I wish that wasn't
the case. I wish I'd changed sooner. I mean, those
are words of someone who's moving through recovery. His words
are more reflective somebody who's just always constantly building that
wall of entitlement. I work so hard. I'm entitled to
go do this. She's always nagging me. I'm entitled to
go do this. I didn't get that promotion. I'm entitled
(26:53):
to go do this. It's my birthday. I'm titled to
go do this. I had childhood trauma. I'm entitled to
go do this. Those are dangerous, dangerous people That is
not a sign of someone who is, as we say
in the twelve step world, who's humbled and surrendered. The
sign of someone who's always setting up justification, rationale and
entitlement to go out and do what they want to
(27:15):
do because I get to and they are not thinking
about the family system, they are not thinking about their
values and goals, they're not definitely not thinking about the
true consequences to their behaviors, and those are all things
required for someone to live in recovery.
Speaker 4 (27:33):
It was funny because you actually said this to me
last week. I had this moment of like a mind fuck,
of like did I give it my all? Should I
have stayed in? You know, I made a vow to
stay with him in sickness and in health.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
As a reminder. Caroline made the decision to leave the
marriage after she got a call from a case manager
at Joel's rehab facility. The case manager told Cane that
Joel was one of the worst cases of sex addiction
she'd ever seen. He wasn't taking the treatment seriously, and
when Caroline realized he wasn't doing the work, she decided
(28:11):
their marriage was irreparable.
Speaker 4 (28:13):
And that's why I tried to separate our lives as
quick as I could.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
Caroline reflected back on this moment after hearing the stories
of other women in Kristen's group, some of whom were
trying to repair their marriages.
Speaker 4 (28:30):
I took pause for a second of seeing these women
really try and then saying, you know, I think I'm
to the point now where I can walk away because
I've really done everything. I've exhausted all efforts. And I
had a moment of I should have exhausted all efforts.
Why didn't I do that? So this past week, two
of them did say it, I wish I would have
(28:50):
left right away, And like after we hung up, I
just I don't know, I just like cried and cried
and cried just because because it was validating. There's so
many things that just you replan your head, like did
I should I could I even though I know I
(29:14):
did the right thing, but hearing someone say I wish
I did that, it just felt validating.
Speaker 1 (29:22):
And like we said that, in any given group, there's
always a story in your head that should I have
tried harder, should I have left sooner? It is the conundrum. Yeah,
for sure, you know, having hope that they'll change, and
then it's the painful coming to that hard conclusion when
(29:45):
you're just like, I don't think this person's ever going
to change. It's not always the case. I obviously do
work with couples and addicts in recovery who do pivot
and change, so I always say it's okay to leave,
and it's okay stay. But especially the betrayed partners who
don't get the closure, the full disclosure of what really happened,
(30:09):
a full understanding of why they did what they did,
with a newfound understanding because they've done all this work
to understand their poor coping skills and what led them
to do these behaviors and what was really going on
in their head. It is so hard for betrayed partners
to move through and heal without that closure.
Speaker 2 (30:50):
We've been listening to Caroline talk with Kristen Snowden about
healing after betrayal. One of the things Caroline addressed in
her sessions was how to have healthy relationships going forward.
Speaker 4 (31:03):
Every Sunday, a group of friends and I get together
and we do something called Separate Club. I mean, they're
kind of my core group of people, like my trusted circle,
the ones who know the full story. But one of
the things about being in that circle is that they've
seen me on this journey of attempting to move forward,
(31:24):
attempting to garner some semblance of normalcy, and they've seen
me go from very very scared to start dating to
I'm going to rip the band aid off and go
on my first date, or I think I'll hang out
with this person for a little bit. This person is
not healthier. These qualities are things that I don't want
around me, and I will make excuses very quick to
(31:48):
not let things be serious or feel vulnerable in any way.
And then there's been times where I have thought, I
just am starting to feel too close and I'd rather
run before I feel hurt. Well, for the first time,
(32:08):
maybe ever, since this happened, I have been around someone
who is just if you just saw this person. My
joke is that this is like a mother's dream. I mean,
this is someone who is personable and handsome and amazing,
has done good service for the community and to his country.
(32:31):
And there are times where I have been getting ready
to hang out with him and I will literally be
putting them on my makeup and think to myself, you
should run tonight. Tonight's the night you should just go
to dinner and then ghost him, never speak to him again.
And I can't really tell you why. It's just this
feeling of protect yourself now before you feel any more vulnerable. Run.
(32:56):
Nothing has gone wrong, there's been no red flag. There's
nothing except this internal voice in me that says you're
starting to let your guard down, protect yourself, go go now.
Speaker 1 (33:11):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 4 (33:13):
You know this supper club that I do. I took
a chance and invited him to supper club. He walked
in just a little bit late. Now, the excuse for
being late. Something came up with his kids. He was
just running a little bit late. Was it two hours late? No,
an hour late, not even close, nothing like that. But
in that moment, I thought, there it is, there's your reason.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
Do it.
Speaker 4 (33:36):
Do it now? Just ridiculous. And one of my friends
in supper club actually said, do not let this be
this reason that you let something good go. Don't do it.
So I know people see it and I know it,
but I don't know how to let go of that feeling.
Speaker 1 (33:58):
Well, honestly, because because once you've had your instincts and
intuition totally destroyed and dismantled and being told, oh, it's
night outside, when the sun is beaming in your eyes.
It's so common to constantly struggle with the inner compass
of what's safe and what's not safe when we have
(34:19):
these wounded parts in us, these really hurt parts because
understandably so, you have been victimized. We often want to
push them away because we're sitting there getting ready for
the date. We should be happy. We tell ourselves what
we should be right. This is a good person, it's
great that we're dating. As you said, all the moms
(34:39):
of the world would love him. So we instinctively want
to push out that scared part that's screaming out. But
you have to do kind of something that is counterintuitive,
which is go into that part and learn more and
it actually is pretty amazing, like the stories that scared
part will tell you.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
Yeah, I think that's a really good challenge.
Speaker 1 (35:05):
And for a woman, let's say, especially a nurturing mom
like you, it helps with our paradigm shift if we
view it as like a scared child or even a
scared teenager, and you listen to it like a mom
because you're not judging it, you're not saying, oh, what's
wrong with you? This guy's great, Like stop it, shut up.
(35:26):
Instead you can say, like, what's scary? All right? How
can I help you feel safe? What do we know
now versus what we're feeling inside? And can we get
through this? And then you and I talked about this before.
But it's also all about the repair attempt that happens
(35:47):
once you bring this to the person you're dating. You
now have taken the minute to be like, this triggered
the heck out of me. I feel really unsafe. Lateness
does not just mean being to me. There's this amazing
repair attempt that can happen in a future relationship where
this time your partner doesn't invalidate you. They don't tell
(36:11):
you you're crazy. They can say, you know, I'm sorry
this made you feel scared or upset. I'm sorry this
triggered a history, but let me help you feel safe
for this time.
Speaker 4 (36:23):
So it's interesting that you bring that last part up
because I wanted to be fair and I actually told
him about the podcast, and so telling him about the
podcast meant that I had to tell him about my history.
And I admit that I not only told him to
(36:44):
be fair, but I also told him, because there was
this piece of me that was like, so you're going
to hear this and you're going to see just the
insanity that I've had to experience. Let me see if
I can get you to run. And his response was
I think you're really brave.
Speaker 1 (37:07):
Wow. And how healing was that sentence.
Speaker 4 (37:12):
It was just like oh my god, oh my God,
like thank you. It had been a really long time
to hear someone. I mean, of course, my friends, my
friends have seen and heard and they know the insanity
and the wheel of insanity that I was locked into
(37:33):
and what I was going through. But for him to
have taken pause, listened to me, asked relevant clarifying questions,
and then ended it with I think you're really brave.
It took this weight off of me and to have
just this pause for wait, there is some humanity in this.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
That is so healing. I mean, that's why I also
say why betrayal trauma can never be healed on your own,
because these are severe attachment wounds. These are wounds that
came due to others breaking your heart and betraying you.
So a lot of the healing and rewiring has to
(38:24):
occur in a relationship setting and as you mentioned, good friends, family,
But your brain has to find new evidence that your
ex's behaviors were more unique and an anomaly that you
can avoid by taking healthy steps and setting up boundaries
(38:45):
and keeping other safe people around you for a checks
and balance system. But these are the rule. He was
the exception. These are the rule, and you can still
feel safe and vulnerable with these people.
Speaker 4 (38:59):
It's tough, though, Oh it's scary.
Speaker 1 (39:02):
Well, and let's like talk to those scared parts for
a second. What is different, you know, update those scared
parts that were betrayed and blindsided. What is different now?
Speaker 4 (39:14):
Well, one of the biggest things is that I'm not married,
and I'm not locked into this need to believe or
feel like I needed to have blind trust in someone.
That I am my own authority. I can make my
(39:35):
own decisions on this and don't need to believe anyone
for anything.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
Yeah, I always say I never let someone tell me
what my reality in my experience is. You never get
to tell me that. And even if even if I
am inaccurate with like thinking that you're somewhere or that
you were cheating and you're not cheating, the bottom line
is my experiences, I'm questioning your choices. I'm not feeling
(40:04):
safe in this relationship. I'm experiencing in congruencies that are
making me want to pull away. I don't feel respected,
I don't feel like you're hearing me, And those are
all important things to be relentless about. I'm supposed to
feel safe with other people, and so when I don't,
it's my job, my responsibility to really go inside and say, Okay,
(40:27):
what is happening that's making me not feel safe. A
partner who loves you, who considers you a partner guy,
should both be invested in helping the other person feel safe,
be able to talk it out, negotiate, validate, change the
way you approach issues that aren't working. But from the
part's work, I would say, don't ignore those parts. They're
(40:50):
not bad, but you have to dive deeper into that
part and understand what's it trying to tell you. And
then the other piece is to let them know this
is an updated information. I didn't know how to keep
myself safe in the past. I was completely bamboozled. I
was deprived of all the information I needed to keep
(41:11):
myself safe. I didn't even know what I didn't even know,
but look how much more I know now.
Speaker 4 (41:19):
Thank you, Kristen. You have no idea. This means so
much to me. The fact that I have this clarity
and insight now, I just I can't thank you enough.
A quick note.
Speaker 2 (41:29):
Before we end, Caroline and Kristen discussed attachment wounds and
parts work, which are just two approaches to dealing with
trauma responses. Kristin recommended that Caroline seek out further evidence
based trauma therapy practices such as EMDR, neurofeedback, brainspotting, and
internal family systems work. It's critical for anyone seeking therapeutic
(41:52):
care to work with a license professional. If you want
more from Kristen, go to her website Kristensnowden dot com.
We've linked in the show notes. On the next episode
of Betrayal, we discuss how grief is a marathon.
Speaker 4 (42:10):
Well, this is the first year that we have actually
gotten into steak my brother just across the finish line.
Speaker 2 (42:15):
On Thank you for listening to Betrayal season four. If
you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team,
email us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal
Pod at gmail dot com. Also, please be sure to
follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod and me Andrea H.
(42:39):
Gunning for all Betrayal content, news and updates.
Speaker 1 (42:42):
One way to.
Speaker 2 (42:42):
Support the series is by subscribing to our show on
Apple Podcasts. Please rate and review Betrayal five star reviews
help us know you appreciate what we do. Betrayal is
a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group,
in partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced
by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Betrayal is hosted and
(43:05):
produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden,
also produced by Carrie Hartman and Ben Fetterman. Our associate
producer is Kristin Melcurie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry
and Jessica Crincheck. Story editing by Monique Leboard, Audio editing
and mixing by Matt Alvecchio, editing by Tanner Robbins, Special
(43:27):
thanks to voice actor John Blomo, and special thanks to
Caroline and her family. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines.
Music library provided by my Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever
you get your podcasts
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