October 16, 2025 • 35 mins
Leo’s elaborate fraud is finally exposed. His face is on the news. Bernie finally gets some answers.
You can follow Bernie on TikTok @Bernie.Brown
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at betrayalpod@gmail.com and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod
To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season
three of Betrayal is now a docuseries on Hulu. It's
the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor who
betrayed them. See the voices You've come to know in
Betrayal Under his Eye, streaming now on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Three weeks before he had first messaged me, he had
actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for
fraud and he was on the run when he met me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything. Bernie Brown met a man named Leo on Grinder.
Leo was unlike anyone he'd ever met, intoxicatingly charming, and
(01:14):
it didn't hurt that he drove a Bentley. After a
few weeks of dating, Leo revealed that he was actually
a member of the royal family, and because of that,
he couldn't come out as gay. His relationship with Bernie
had to be a secret. Leo's need for privacy became
even more heightened when he received a terminal cancer diagnosis.
(01:34):
All the while, Leo kept up his career restoring luxury watches.
He even made a deal with Bernie to restore a
Rolex for free. Bernie just had to cover the initial cost.
To do that. Bernie took out a high interest loan
to pay for the watch and together they would resell
it for a profit. But once Bernie transferred the money,
Leo's communication became more sparse, until one night when Bernie
(01:59):
got his darycal call from his boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
He was like, Bernie, I can't take this life anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Bernie drove across the country to pick him up.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
He was in tears. He went asleep and I was
stroking his hair.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
The next morning, Leo made a proposition.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And it's like, I've got a serious question that I
need to ask you. I want to move somewhere in Scotland.
Would you come with me.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Leo had been looking to buy a castle in the
Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of
his life the way he wanted to with Bernie, and.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
He was like, I want to put an offer in
and move within the month. I'm just done with all
of this. I'm like, do you know what, We've got
one life, Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Leo drove them back to London. It was a five
hour drive and they spent every minute of it planning
their new life.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We had designed this entire life down to the jobs
we would do, the businesses we would build.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
On their drive, Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby, so
Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the
rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive
the Bentley back to London, so halfway through their trip,
Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents
were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen
(03:32):
anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like
they were just friends.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
He went over to this couple they must have been
in their late sixties, and his granddad went to go
to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need
to toilet anyway, So I was like, I'll go and
then I went in and then he came in after me,
so I was like okay.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up
a conversation with Leo's granddad and he was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, we live in Sussex. That's where the castle was.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to
their cars. Leo went with his grandparents and Bernie drove
alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his
new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the
watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in
time for Bernie's next loan payment.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm panicking now, I'd missed one direct debit. February's was
coming up, and it still was not happening.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend
for an update on the watch.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I'll
bring it up, can I I'll come up to yours.
I was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch up.
He'd get to the house. No watch, Oh I forgot
I didn't go home yet. For whatever reason, the watch
would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally
(04:59):
moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere,
so he needs to go back and look for it.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch
sorted out. Sure, there was a lot happening in Leo's life,
but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's there.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Was something inside that I was questioning a lot more,
but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go
to Scotland with him.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through
the night to be there for him. Leo showed him
the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie
wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
The gas lighting started. We'd have this call, for instance,
and what are you doing today, Let's have a call tonight. Yeah, okay,
and then we'd have a call arrange something, and then
he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like,
well we did, because you know, I put it here,
I put it in my diary. I put it. No,
we didn't have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about
his camp or his family. Bernie wondered if things had
gotten worse, but all the worrying was starting to take
a toll on his own health.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
End of January, February and beginning of March was and
still is, to a degree, a blur. I got into
the worst state of mind. I had to take time
off of work for depression I got massively depressed. I
lost so much weight I didn't eat.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Bernie knew something was wrong, and he started spiraling.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Of course, like anyone, I went straight into his seeing
somebody else mode, somebody else is on the scene, and
I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do
something cheap because I was like, I can't do this normal.
I literally cannot do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
With Leo across the country, Bernie got an idea, what I.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Think I should download Grinder again. And with Grinder you
can change location and search for profiles within that location.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So Bernie created a fake Grinder profile and set it
to Leo's location.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Now I knew his type, so I found a decent
looking ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I
spent a good day at the location looking through profiles
that didn't have pictures on Lo and behold, he found
my profile.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Leo sent the first message.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So we're just talking. I'm like, what do you do
is I'm a horologist, you know, I deal with watches,
And he went straight into you and I'm a part
of the Howard family, and then he sent me pictures.
It was him.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
At the same time, Leo was talking to fake Bernie
on Grinder. He was avoiding real Bernie's texts.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
He would reply to this person for literally about an hour,
but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, do you
know what I'm done? Now? That's it. I need to
get this watch and I need to get it soon.
So I did actually confront him with it, and I
was like, I know you've been speaking to people, and
(08:20):
I sent him a screenshot of the profile, and of
course he was like, how dare you try putting it
on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything,
and I was like, you have no right and went
off on one and I'm like, do you know what,
it's absolutely fine, just give me the watch. That's when
he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch.
You don't deserve the watch.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis. Bernie wasn't
going to allow someone to speak to him that way.
He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, I really love you and all of this
and what about Scotland.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship
was over, the only thing he wanted from Leo was
the watch.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So he's like, look, I'm going to bring the watch.
It's finally ready. I was like, oh my god, I'm
actually going to get this watch now, and he was like,
I'm going to bring it down.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
They set a time and place to meet.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
He was like, are you're going to be okay seeing me?
You know it may be a strain, and I'm like, listen,
I'm sure I'm going to be fine. I just just
make sure you bring the watch. Turns up, no watch.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
That was the last time they ever spoke.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I said enough is enough. I'm worth more than this,
and I blocked his number. I had just been like,
I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with
what I can and this is the position that I'm in.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the
course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged.
All of his savings were gone, he had taken out
loans and max out every credit card he had. It
left Bernie in a dark place.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
My best friends literally descended on my house and were like,
we've never seen you like this, and we need to
pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around
me at the time, I don't know if I would
actually be here to this day. I genuinely, genuinely believe.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
That Bernie's friend supported him emotionally, but he was facing
his financial crisis alone.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I had to just bow and say I can't afford it. Default,
and my credit score at one point went from the
highest it had ever been straight down to zero. I'd
never even seen zero on a credit score before. I
(10:50):
was working in retail, and I had all this depth,
and the debts that were coming out on a monthly
basis because of everything that happened was higher than my
entire pay let alone, when you take away bills and
utilities and all of that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of
getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was
able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime
he had very little money to live on.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
He didn't take an obscene amount of money from me
monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wipe
me out. At one point, I didn't have the money
to go to the shop to buy food. The monetary
amount for me twenty thousand could have easily been five million.
(11:43):
It was all that I had to my name to survive.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Twenty thousand pounds was a drop in the bucket for Leo.
After all, his family lived in a historic castle. He
drove a Bentley. But twenty thousand pounds was everything to Bernie,
and Leo knew that.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I've reminded him time and time again. He knew exactly
what my financial background was, what my current financial situation was.
He knew about all of that, but he still pushed
to take them credit cards. He knew all of that
was coming, and I reminded him many times, every single day,
(12:23):
almost that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He
continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when
one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before.
This was theft he'd been robbed.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
She was like, he's going to carry on doing it
to other people until somebody actually puts a stop to it.
At that point, I decided that actually I will contact
the police because this isn't right.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
They did take it seriously. I gave everything I had
to them, and they had absolutely no idea who this person.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Was according to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of
the Duke of Norfolk, and there was absolutely no record
of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So
then I started doing my own research, but there was
absolutely no trace.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's Range, Rover and Bentley.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased,
which is very hard to do. I don't know how
that's possible.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was
like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in
those cars, driving those cars. It was all so strange.
He was starting to wonder what was even real.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year,
completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had
hit a dead end.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
The police could not recognize his picture. They had to
just close the investigation. It must have been a good
year later and I get a call when it comes
up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing
with the case. Then I answered and there was a
nice of tears. You know, how are you? And then
(14:47):
he said, do you watch Channel four? And I said,
to be honest, no, And he said, right, okay, there's
this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four and
from that I've been given a case. And he said,
everything that's been described in the case and on the
(15:08):
documentary is almost identical to my story.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Bernie had no idea that across the country other people
had been reporting a very similar crime to the police.
A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was
already out as a true crime documentary. It was about
a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over
the UK. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie
(15:36):
recognized the man at the center of it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
He said, can you just google and have a look.
As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling.
My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would
be him. My hands started shaking, and my brain when
(15:59):
complete depletely dead on just how to google something. But
I managed it. I got there and it was his face.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
A year after Bernie first went to the police, he
got a call from a detective. They linked his report
to a serial fraudster, someone who'd been conning men and
women across the UK with the same mix of charm,
money and elaborate lies.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
There was a lot of press around it, and I
broke down. I absolutely broke down in tears.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news.
After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling
flooded in.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens, because,
bearing in mind at that point, the only person who
had ever met him was my best friend. We went
out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't want
to meet anyone. He didn't want to be photographed anyone
that I told this story to. There was always, i'm sure,
(17:24):
an element of doubt because it was so extraordinary to
happen to me or to anyone. When I saw this,
it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous feeling of
I told you this did happen.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
There were dozens of articles Bernie clicked on. One about
a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He
built a five year relationship in order to scam her
out of thirty thousand pounds.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I read the article and everything that happened to me
had happened to her.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to as
many unanswered questions about Leo.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
We sat down and we watched it, and as soon
as I press play, it starts with his face again.
I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Scene after scene, Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact
moments with the same con man. The luxury watch business
a scam, the cancer diagnosis fake.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm heightened at that point, and the Bentley came up
and I was like, that's that was the Bentley and
the watch that I was handling, and the watch that
I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary,
just even little parts of the story. I was like, yes,
he told me.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That, even though it was someone else's story, it was
like watching his own true crime documentary. Andy learned Leo
had a dozen aliases.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
After the documentary, I did get emotional because I think
that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening.
I was just a number at that point. Straight Away,
I found the woman in the documentary on social media
(19:34):
and connected and I remember The first message was like,
you don't know me. I've just seen your documentary and
I met him such and such date. She came back
and we had a few telephone conversations.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
They had so much in common. This other victim helped
Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and pieced
together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Three weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually
absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud
and he was on the run when he met me.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Looking back, this explained something about Leo's behavior, how he
was always nervous around the police.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
He never really liked the police. He was kind of
scared of the police, to the point he would wait
around the corner if there was police cars from driving past.
He was scared.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
When Bernie met Leo. He wasn't in that campground because
it was the only place he could be himself. He
was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped
while he was serving a five year prison sentence for
defrauding another victim, and there were many more. He had
victims across England.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There was me and one other person in the north
of London, all the other victims were in the south
of England, in Kent, in Sussex. The person that was
in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when
(21:10):
he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and
he was in hiding.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What was so chilling to Bernie was that the.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Time the documentary was being filmed was when I was
with him.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while
he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents, who Bernie
met at the gas station.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I told the police my story and I said, look,
I came into contact with his nana grandad. They're like, no,
that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was
doing exactly the same to them.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized.
He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him.
But the problem was the police weren't as savvy as Leo.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Now, we do have a national database which comes up,
but they didn't put him on that. So all the
time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns
to find this person. However, the police don't talk to
each other over here, and when I had raised my case.
(22:27):
They had no idea who it was until the documentary
came out.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Channel four had done so many press releases that it
really got the national scope. And I think we're on
about ten people that have come forward and raised a case.
Because of the heightened press and because all of this
was going around, he decided to hand himself in.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Leo was sent back to prison and Bernie hoped justice
would finally be served.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles,
But that's where we are and that's what we have
to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a
true understanding of who this man really was. He even
heard from people who knew the real Leo before he
became a criminal.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok
where people have gone to school with him, and he
used to make up stories to get people in trouble.
He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very very early age.
His background is so far from the royal family it's unbelievable.
(23:55):
From my knowledge, he is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing,
and he, in all intents and purposes, created his own
system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain
money from anywhere he could to create the life that
(24:18):
he saw himself and that he wanted.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy,
powerful and important.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
He wanted to be part of the royal family setting,
and he believed that he was destined for more. He
had created his own reality, and I think the longer
he believed it, the more he believed it.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just
a dream of being rich. It was pathological.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Every time he created this persona this person himself so
hard into it that he then started to believe that
he was this person. And I do think there's mental
issues there.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie
still questions Leo's true motivations.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Was his intention to outright going and commit fraud on
every single person that he encountered, or was it that
his world at certain points starts to crumble and he
has to get what he can do and run to
create another life for himself. That other life that he's
(25:42):
built up that is then crumbling.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
He got back to their first date when he was
asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test?
Was it blackmail?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I've tried going back and be like, what did happen?
Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea, but
I know it comes down to control.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed,
Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking
up the pieces in the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie,
but I think there is an element that he had
gone through so much and then he met me, and
he had said many times that he was gay, he
just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's
(26:57):
an element that I wasn't his typical target, and he
wasn't there initially for money, and I do believe at
some point he did get emotionally connected, because going after
me for money wouldn't have made any sense.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland
together was a genuine offer to run away together.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
At some point, I do believe that he thought that
he could get away from it all and escape with
me and live that life that he had in his
mind at the time. And I think potentially, once it
started getting a bit too real with me, that's when
(27:48):
he went into what I would call default mode. And
that's when the watch came. Because the watch conversation came
very very late in the day and then it ended
very very quick because he had to have a new
supply and obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Bernie's right, Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he
was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were
at the center of it.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Some businesses have come forward and said that that person
had sold them a fake watch, and bear in mind,
these are big companies. They know how to evaluate watches.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded
Herod's department store out of a half a million pounds.
It was all part of Leo's scam.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
He was on top of his game with regards to
watches that he knew how to see a fake, a
very good fake, and improve it to the level that
it was a very convincing actual piece. He scams half
a million pounds out of Harold's Like you are a
(29:07):
different level, a completely different level when you can do that.
The knowledge that Leo had on watches, watched brands, the mechanics,
the mechanical workings. There's no doubt in my mind he
has studied watches for a long time.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions.
He always had multiple scams going at once.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Absolutely the mind boggles. I do not understand that.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
In February twenty twenty five, Leo was sentenced to ten
months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud
conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will
be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he
was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok, where he
shared his story. Through that experience, he has found language
(30:05):
to describe Leo and what he did.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process.
Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I
went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and
narcissistic behavior, everything from the signs to the results of
(30:30):
what it actually does to you for the long term,
and instantly I was like this is exactly what he
was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing,
you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually
(30:51):
change your makeup and it changes the way you think.
If you said in six months time, somebody is going
to be in your life and you are going to
be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak
to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family,
You're going to doubt everything that you say. I would
literally have a laugh and say, carry on drinking. It
would never happen to me, but it did.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We'll carry the experience with him for the rest of
his life.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Your trust in other people after this is almost nonexistent.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
He lost a lot, But now Bernie is focused on
what he does have.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I have a beautiful soon to be a husband, and
I've got a little puppy, and I've got amazing friends
and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will
never ever in his life have what I have. Sat
in this chair now and I think that's just incredibly sad.
(31:55):
I don't hate him. I don't think too much other
than just sadness.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've
been victims of scam artists and narcissists, and the best
way for him to do that is on his TikTok
at Berniet Brown.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around
narcissism and around the discard, the gas lighting, all of that,
that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I
can do that for somebody else out there, and it
does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're
going through it or you are very fresh from a
(32:41):
narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of
call and be able to just listen.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
We end every weekly episode with the same question, why
do you want to share your story?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I know for a fact that there's thousands of leos
around the world. That's why this conversation, I think is massively,
massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain
things beforehand, maybe i'd have acted differently. Maybe I would't
have gone through what I'd have gone through. Maybe I'd
(33:20):
have acted differently halfway through and I wouldn't have suffered
as much. But you know, what's happened to me is done.
But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes,
and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's
worth it.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly is.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Like, fine, I just want you to know if you
continue down this path, I will take every single cent
I have and every single cent you have, and I
will spend it burning you to the ground.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email
us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at
Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram
at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content,
(34:27):
and connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at
Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our
show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A
big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is
a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment
(34:50):
Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive
produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced
by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt
and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Casting support
from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vicio.
(35:15):
Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by
Oliver Bain's music library provided by my Music And. For
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,
Hey, Betrayal fans, I have exciting news to share. Season
three of Betrayal is now a docuseries on Hulu. It's
the gripping story of Stacy Tyler and the doctor who
betrayed them. See the voices You've come to know in
Betrayal Under his Eye, streaming now on Hulu.
Speaker 2 (00:22):
Three weeks before he had first messaged me, he had
actually absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for
fraud and he was on the run when he met me.
Speaker 1 (00:53):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything. Bernie Brown met a man named Leo on Grinder.
Leo was unlike anyone he'd ever met, intoxicatingly charming, and
(01:14):
it didn't hurt that he drove a Bentley. After a
few weeks of dating, Leo revealed that he was actually
a member of the royal family, and because of that,
he couldn't come out as gay. His relationship with Bernie
had to be a secret. Leo's need for privacy became
even more heightened when he received a terminal cancer diagnosis.
(01:34):
All the while, Leo kept up his career restoring luxury watches.
He even made a deal with Bernie to restore a
Rolex for free. Bernie just had to cover the initial cost.
To do that. Bernie took out a high interest loan
to pay for the watch and together they would resell
it for a profit. But once Bernie transferred the money,
Leo's communication became more sparse, until one night when Bernie
(01:59):
got his darycal call from his boyfriend.
Speaker 2 (02:02):
He was like, Bernie, I can't take this life anymore.
Speaker 1 (02:05):
Bernie drove across the country to pick him up.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
He was in tears. He went asleep and I was
stroking his hair.
Speaker 1 (02:12):
The next morning, Leo made a proposition.
Speaker 2 (02:14):
And it's like, I've got a serious question that I
need to ask you. I want to move somewhere in Scotland.
Would you come with me.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Leo had been looking to buy a castle in the
Scottish countryside where he could live out the rest of
his life the way he wanted to with Bernie, and.
Speaker 2 (02:35):
He was like, I want to put an offer in
and move within the month. I'm just done with all
of this. I'm like, do you know what, We've got
one life, Let's do it.
Speaker 1 (02:51):
Leo drove them back to London. It was a five
hour drive and they spent every minute of it planning
their new life.
Speaker 2 (02:59):
We had designed this entire life down to the jobs
we would do, the businesses we would build.
Speaker 1 (03:08):
On their drive, Leo's grandparents called. They were nearby, so
Leo decided to meet up with them and spend the
rest of the day with his grandparents. Bernie could drive
the Bentley back to London, so halfway through their trip,
Leo pulled off at a gas station where his grandparents
were waiting. It was the first time Bernie had seen
(03:32):
anyone in Leo's family. Leo asked Bernie to act like
they were just friends.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
He went over to this couple they must have been
in their late sixties, and his granddad went to go
to the bathroom. So I was like, okay, I need
to toilet anyway, So I was like, I'll go and
then I went in and then he came in after me,
so I was like okay.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
On the way out of the bathroom, Bernie struck up
a conversation with Leo's granddad and he was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Well, we live in Sussex. That's where the castle was.
Speaker 1 (04:07):
They chatted about life in Sussex, then headed back to
their cars. Leo went with his grandparents and Bernie drove
alone back to London. Bernie was excited about starting his
new life in Scotland, but his financial stress about the
watch was mounting. It wouldn't be ready to resell in
time for Bernie's next loan payment.
Speaker 2 (04:26):
I'm panicking now, I'd missed one direct debit. February's was
coming up, and it still was not happening.
Speaker 1 (04:33):
As the weeks went on, Bernie kept asking his boyfriend
for an update on the watch.
Speaker 2 (04:39):
The watch is being almost dangled. It's like, oh, I'll
bring it up, can I I'll come up to yours.
I was like, okay, fine, I'll bring the watch up.
He'd get to the house. No watch, Oh I forgot
I didn't go home yet. For whatever reason, the watch
would always either be forgotten or once the cleaner accidentally
(04:59):
moved it and it was lost in the house somewhere,
so he needs to go back and look for it.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
It was getting absurd that Leo couldn't get the watch
sorted out. Sure, there was a lot happening in Leo's life,
but waiting this long was affecting Bernie's there.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Was something inside that I was questioning a lot more,
but I was still hooked. I still agreed to go
to Scotland with him.
Speaker 1 (05:24):
Just weeks before, Leo had needed Bernie to drive through
the night to be there for him. Leo showed him
the house he was putting an offer on. Now Bernie
wasn't even getting a text or a call back for days.
Speaker 2 (05:37):
The gas lighting started. We'd have this call, for instance,
and what are you doing today, Let's have a call tonight. Yeah, okay,
and then we'd have a call arrange something, and then
he would be like, we didn't arrange it. I was like,
well we did, because you know, I put it here,
I put it in my diary. I put it. No,
we didn't have that conversation.
Speaker 1 (05:56):
Bernie knew that Leo isolated when he was stressed about
his camp or his family. Bernie wondered if things had
gotten worse, but all the worrying was starting to take
a toll on his own health.
Speaker 2 (06:11):
End of January, February and beginning of March was and
still is, to a degree, a blur. I got into
the worst state of mind. I had to take time
off of work for depression I got massively depressed. I
lost so much weight I didn't eat.
Speaker 1 (06:33):
Bernie knew something was wrong, and he started spiraling.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
Of course, like anyone, I went straight into his seeing
somebody else mode, somebody else is on the scene, and
I went into that whole whirlwind. I did then do
something cheap because I was like, I can't do this normal.
I literally cannot do this anymore.
Speaker 1 (06:55):
With Leo across the country, Bernie got an idea, what I.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
Think I should download Grinder again. And with Grinder you
can change location and search for profiles within that location.
Speaker 1 (07:11):
So Bernie created a fake Grinder profile and set it
to Leo's location.
Speaker 2 (07:15):
Now I knew his type, so I found a decent
looking ginger guy, put that on my profile, and I
spent a good day at the location looking through profiles
that didn't have pictures on Lo and behold, he found
my profile.
Speaker 1 (07:35):
Leo sent the first message.
Speaker 2 (07:38):
So we're just talking. I'm like, what do you do
is I'm a horologist, you know, I deal with watches,
And he went straight into you and I'm a part
of the Howard family, and then he sent me pictures.
It was him.
Speaker 1 (07:51):
At the same time, Leo was talking to fake Bernie
on Grinder. He was avoiding real Bernie's texts.
Speaker 2 (07:58):
He would reply to this person for literally about an hour,
but I'm getting no reply. So I'm like, do you
know what I'm done? Now? That's it. I need to
get this watch and I need to get it soon.
So I did actually confront him with it, and I
was like, I know you've been speaking to people, and
(08:20):
I sent him a screenshot of the profile, and of
course he was like, how dare you try putting it
on me? And I was like, I didn't do anything,
and I was like, you have no right and went
off on one and I'm like, do you know what,
it's absolutely fine, just give me the watch. That's when
he turned nasty. I was like, you're not getting the watch.
You don't deserve the watch.
Speaker 1 (08:41):
Regardless of Leo's royal status or cancer diagnosis. Bernie wasn't
going to allow someone to speak to him that way.
He hung up. Then Leo started blowing up his phone.
Speaker 2 (08:54):
You know, I really love you and all of this
and what about Scotland.
Speaker 1 (08:58):
Bernie told him he wasn't coming to Scotland. Their relationship
was over, the only thing he wanted from Leo was
the watch.
Speaker 2 (09:07):
So he's like, look, I'm going to bring the watch.
It's finally ready. I was like, oh my god, I'm
actually going to get this watch now, and he was like,
I'm going to bring it down.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
They set a time and place to meet.
Speaker 2 (09:18):
He was like, are you're going to be okay seeing me?
You know it may be a strain, and I'm like, listen,
I'm sure I'm going to be fine. I just just
make sure you bring the watch. Turns up, no watch.
Speaker 1 (09:32):
That was the last time they ever spoke.
Speaker 2 (09:35):
I said enough is enough. I'm worth more than this,
and I blocked his number. I had just been like,
I'm never getting that watch. I need to deal with
what I can and this is the position that I'm in.
Speaker 1 (09:49):
Bernie says he was a shell of himself. Over the
course of nine months, his entire life had been rearranged.
All of his savings were gone, he had taken out
loans and max out every credit card he had. It
left Bernie in a dark place.
Speaker 2 (10:05):
My best friends literally descended on my house and were like,
we've never seen you like this, and we need to
pick it up. If I didn't have my friends around
me at the time, I don't know if I would
actually be here to this day. I genuinely, genuinely believe.
Speaker 1 (10:23):
That Bernie's friend supported him emotionally, but he was facing
his financial crisis alone.
Speaker 2 (10:30):
I had to just bow and say I can't afford it. Default,
and my credit score at one point went from the
highest it had ever been straight down to zero. I'd
never even seen zero on a credit score before. I
(10:50):
was working in retail, and I had all this depth,
and the debts that were coming out on a monthly
basis because of everything that happened was higher than my
entire pay let alone, when you take away bills and
utilities and all of that.
Speaker 1 (11:06):
Bernie was overwhelmed with shame. He was at risk of
getting his car repossessed or his wages garnished. He was
able to make a payment plan, but in the meantime
he had very little money to live on.
Speaker 2 (11:20):
He didn't take an obscene amount of money from me
monetary wise, but what he did do was absolutely wipe
me out. At one point, I didn't have the money
to go to the shop to buy food. The monetary
amount for me twenty thousand could have easily been five million.
(11:43):
It was all that I had to my name to survive.
Speaker 1 (11:48):
Twenty thousand pounds was a drop in the bucket for Leo.
After all, his family lived in a historic castle. He
drove a Bentley. But twenty thousand pounds was everything to Bernie,
and Leo knew that.
Speaker 2 (12:02):
I've reminded him time and time again. He knew exactly
what my financial background was, what my current financial situation was.
He knew about all of that, but he still pushed
to take them credit cards. He knew all of that
was coming, and I reminded him many times, every single day,
(12:23):
almost that this is hitting. He absolutely did not care.
Speaker 1 (12:29):
Slowly, Bernie came to terms with his financial reality. He
continued leaning on his friends for emotional support. That's when
one of his friends said something he hadn't considered before.
This was theft he'd been robbed.
Speaker 2 (12:45):
She was like, he's going to carry on doing it
to other people until somebody actually puts a stop to it.
At that point, I decided that actually I will contact
the police because this isn't right.
Speaker 1 (12:59):
Bernie walked into the police station and filed a report.
Speaker 2 (13:03):
They did take it seriously. I gave everything I had
to them, and they had absolutely no idea who this person.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Was according to the police database, Leo Howard didn't exist.
Speaker 2 (13:17):
I emailed Arundel Castle, which is the official residence of
the Duke of Norfolk, and there was absolutely no record
of Leo Howard, Leo Bose Howard, or absolutely anything. So
then I started doing my own research, but there was
absolutely no trace.
Speaker 1 (13:38):
Bernie knew the VIN numbers to Leo's Range, Rover and Bentley.
Speaker 2 (13:42):
All of the car registration numbers had completely been erased,
which is very hard to do. I don't know how
that's possible.
Speaker 1 (13:50):
The VIN numbers weren't listed on any database. It was
like the cars never existed. But Bernie remembered riding in
those cars, driving those cars. It was all so strange.
He was starting to wonder what was even real.
Speaker 2 (14:09):
It was as if I had completely imagined the entire year,
completely imagined it, because this person just did not exist.
Speaker 1 (14:20):
Leo had vanished into thin air. Even the police had
hit a dead end.
Speaker 2 (14:27):
The police could not recognize his picture. They had to
just close the investigation. It must have been a good
year later and I get a call when it comes
up and it's the police officer that was originally dealing
with the case. Then I answered and there was a
nice of tears. You know, how are you? And then
(14:47):
he said, do you watch Channel four? And I said,
to be honest, no, And he said, right, okay, there's
this documentary that's just been shown on Channel four and
from that I've been given a case. And he said,
everything that's been described in the case and on the
(15:08):
documentary is almost identical to my story.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
Bernie had no idea that across the country other people
had been reporting a very similar crime to the police.
A broader case was developing. In fact, the story was
already out as a true crime documentary. It was about
a prolific and highly manipulative scam artist operating all over
the UK. The detective calling wanted to know if Bernie
(15:36):
recognized the man at the center of it.
Speaker 2 (15:38):
He said, can you just google and have a look.
As soon as he said that, I had that sinking feeling.
My heart dropped to the ground. I knew it would
be him. My hands started shaking, and my brain when
(15:59):
complete depletely dead on just how to google something. But
I managed it. I got there and it was his face.
Speaker 1 (16:29):
A year after Bernie first went to the police, he
got a call from a detective. They linked his report
to a serial fraudster, someone who'd been conning men and
women across the UK with the same mix of charm,
money and elaborate lies.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
There was a lot of press around it, and I
broke down. I absolutely broke down in tears.
Speaker 1 (16:52):
The story had exploded. Leo's face was all over the news.
After Bernie got over the initial shock, a new feeling
flooded in.
Speaker 2 (17:02):
The wave of relief. Now I have proof that it happens, because,
bearing in mind at that point, the only person who
had ever met him was my best friend. We went
out for one night. Apart from that, he didn't want
to meet anyone. He didn't want to be photographed anyone
that I told this story to. There was always, i'm sure,
(17:24):
an element of doubt because it was so extraordinary to
happen to me or to anyone. When I saw this,
it was that feeling, that overwhelming, almost joyous feeling of
I told you this did happen.
Speaker 1 (17:45):
There were dozens of articles Bernie clicked on. One about
a woman who discovered her fiance was a fraud. He
built a five year relationship in order to scam her
out of thirty thousand pounds.
Speaker 2 (17:59):
I read the article and everything that happened to me
had happened to her.
Speaker 1 (18:06):
Bernie knew that the documentary might hold answers to as
many unanswered questions about Leo.
Speaker 2 (18:13):
We sat down and we watched it, and as soon
as I press play, it starts with his face again.
I got that sinking feeling. It was surreal.
Speaker 1 (18:29):
Scene after scene, Bernie realized he'd lived the same exact
moments with the same con man. The luxury watch business
a scam, the cancer diagnosis fake.
Speaker 2 (18:42):
I'm heightened at that point, and the Bentley came up
and I was like, that's that was the Bentley and
the watch that I was handling, and the watch that
I was supposed to be buying was actually in the documentary,
just even little parts of the story. I was like, yes,
he told me.
Speaker 1 (19:00):
That, even though it was someone else's story, it was
like watching his own true crime documentary. Andy learned Leo
had a dozen aliases.
Speaker 2 (19:13):
After the documentary, I did get emotional because I think
that then sunk in exactly the severity of what was happening.
I was just a number at that point. Straight Away,
I found the woman in the documentary on social media
(19:34):
and connected and I remember The first message was like,
you don't know me. I've just seen your documentary and
I met him such and such date. She came back
and we had a few telephone conversations.
Speaker 1 (19:49):
They had so much in common. This other victim helped
Bernie fill in the gaps in his knowledge and pieced
together a timeline. Most shocking of all, he learned.
Speaker 2 (20:00):
Three weeks before he had messaged me, he had actually
absconded from prison. He was serving a sentence for fraud
and he was on the run when he met me.
Speaker 1 (20:14):
Looking back, this explained something about Leo's behavior, how he
was always nervous around the police.
Speaker 2 (20:22):
He never really liked the police. He was kind of
scared of the police, to the point he would wait
around the corner if there was police cars from driving past.
He was scared.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
When Bernie met Leo. He wasn't in that campground because
it was the only place he could be himself. He
was there because he was in hiding. Leo had escaped
while he was serving a five year prison sentence for
defrauding another victim, and there were many more. He had
victims across England.
Speaker 2 (20:50):
There was me and one other person in the north
of London, all the other victims were in the south
of England, in Kent, in Sussex. The person that was
in the documentary was in the Isle of Wight when
(21:10):
he escaped from prison. He had then obviously traveled and
he was in hiding.
Speaker 1 (21:16):
What was so chilling to Bernie was that the.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Time the documentary was being filmed was when I was
with him.
Speaker 1 (21:28):
And Bernie wasn't the only person Leo was scamming while
he was on the run. Remember Leo's grandparents, who Bernie
met at the gas station.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
I told the police my story and I said, look,
I came into contact with his nana grandad. They're like, no,
that was another victim. I was like, wow, he was
doing exactly the same to them.
Speaker 1 (21:53):
If Leo stayed behind bars, many people wouldn't have been victimized.
He was a fugitive. The police were looking for him.
But the problem was the police weren't as savvy as Leo.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
Now, we do have a national database which comes up,
but they didn't put him on that. So all the
time that I was with him, there were actually campaigns
to find this person. However, the police don't talk to
each other over here, and when I had raised my case.
(22:27):
They had no idea who it was until the documentary
came out.
Speaker 1 (22:32):
That's when police stations across the country started connecting the dots.
Speaker 2 (22:38):
Channel four had done so many press releases that it
really got the national scope. And I think we're on
about ten people that have come forward and raised a case.
Because of the heightened press and because all of this
was going around, he decided to hand himself in.
Speaker 1 (23:02):
Leo was sent back to prison and Bernie hoped justice
would finally be served.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
But he still qualified for early release. The mind boggles,
But that's where we are and that's what we have
to deal with, and that's what we are currently facing.
Speaker 1 (23:20):
Through this whole process, Bernie was able to get a
true understanding of who this man really was. He even
heard from people who knew the real Leo before he
became a criminal.
Speaker 2 (23:32):
I've had so many messages over social media and TikTok
where people have gone to school with him, and he
used to make up stories to get people in trouble.
He naturally gravitated towards fraud from a very very early age.
His background is so far from the royal family it's unbelievable.
(23:55):
From my knowledge, he is Polish heritage, very broken upbringing,
and he, in all intents and purposes, created his own
system to survive. And his system was to fraudulently gain
money from anywhere he could to create the life that
(24:18):
he saw himself and that he wanted.
Speaker 1 (24:20):
And the life he wanted was one where he was wealthy,
powerful and important.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
He wanted to be part of the royal family setting,
and he believed that he was destined for more. He
had created his own reality, and I think the longer
he believed it, the more he believed it.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Creating a string of fraudulent identities was more than just
a dream of being rich. It was pathological.
Speaker 2 (24:55):
Every time he created this persona this person himself so
hard into it that he then started to believe that
he was this person. And I do think there's mental
issues there.
Speaker 1 (25:11):
It's been three years since he met Leo, and Bernie
still questions Leo's true motivations.
Speaker 2 (25:18):
Was his intention to outright going and commit fraud on
every single person that he encountered, or was it that
his world at certain points starts to crumble and he
has to get what he can do and run to
create another life for himself. That other life that he's
(25:42):
built up that is then crumbling.
Speaker 1 (25:44):
He got back to their first date when he was
asked to take off his clothes. Was that a test?
Was it blackmail?
Speaker 2 (25:53):
I've tried going back and be like, what did happen?
Why did it happen? I have absolutely no idea, but
I know it comes down to control.
Speaker 1 (26:26):
After having his heart broken and his own financial stability destroyed,
Bernie learned who Leo truly was. He was left picking
up the pieces in the aftermath.
Speaker 2 (26:37):
I don't know whether this is still my subconscious emotional tie,
but I think there is an element that he had
gone through so much and then he met me, and
he had said many times that he was gay, he
just couldn't be out. And I do believe that there's
(26:57):
an element that I wasn't his typical target, and he
wasn't there initially for money, and I do believe at
some point he did get emotionally connected, because going after
me for money wouldn't have made any sense.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
Bernie still wonders if that dream of going to Scotland
together was a genuine offer to run away together.
Speaker 2 (27:26):
At some point, I do believe that he thought that
he could get away from it all and escape with
me and live that life that he had in his
mind at the time. And I think potentially, once it
started getting a bit too real with me, that's when
(27:48):
he went into what I would call default mode. And
that's when the watch came. Because the watch conversation came
very very late in the day and then it ended
very very quick because he had to have a new
supply and obviously he couldn't leave empty handed.
Speaker 1 (28:08):
Bernie's right, Leo never left empty handed. In fact, he
was running a major fraud scheme and the watches were
at the center of it.
Speaker 2 (28:18):
Some businesses have come forward and said that that person
had sold them a fake watch, and bear in mind,
these are big companies. They know how to evaluate watches.
Speaker 1 (28:34):
As more information came out, he learned that Leo defrauded
Herod's department store out of a half a million pounds.
It was all part of Leo's scam.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
He was on top of his game with regards to
watches that he knew how to see a fake, a
very good fake, and improve it to the level that
it was a very convincing actual piece. He scams half
a million pounds out of Harold's Like you are a
(29:07):
different level, a completely different level when you can do that.
The knowledge that Leo had on watches, watched brands, the mechanics,
the mechanical workings. There's no doubt in my mind he
has studied watches for a long time.
Speaker 1 (29:27):
Leo also knew cars. He scammed Bentley dealerships and financial institutions.
He always had multiple scams going at once.
Speaker 2 (29:38):
Absolutely the mind boggles. I do not understand that.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
In February twenty twenty five, Leo was sentenced to ten
months in prison for having absconded from his original fraud
conviction and five year sentence. It's unclear whether he will
be criminally charged with respect to his conduct. While he
was on the run, Bernie took to TikTok, where he
shared his story. Through that experience, he has found language
(30:05):
to describe Leo and what he did.
Speaker 2 (30:09):
TikTok was instrumental in me healing and starting that healing process.
Somebody had commented on one of my posts and I
went onto their profile and they talk about narcissist and
narcissistic behavior, everything from the signs to the results of
(30:30):
what it actually does to you for the long term,
and instantly I was like this is exactly what he
was doing. With the amount of gaslighting, love bombing, breadcrumbing,
you get so heavily sucked in that it does actually
(30:51):
change your makeup and it changes the way you think.
If you said in six months time, somebody is going
to be in your life and you are going to
be hanging on every word. You're not going to speak
to your friends, you're not going to speak to your family,
You're going to doubt everything that you say. I would
literally have a laugh and say, carry on drinking. It
would never happen to me, but it did.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
We'll carry the experience with him for the rest of
his life.
Speaker 2 (31:20):
Your trust in other people after this is almost nonexistent.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
He lost a lot, But now Bernie is focused on
what he does have.
Speaker 2 (31:32):
I have a beautiful soon to be a husband, and
I've got a little puppy, and I've got amazing friends
and family and actually neighbors. So I'm content. He will
never ever in his life have what I have. Sat
in this chair now and I think that's just incredibly sad.
(31:55):
I don't hate him. I don't think too much other
than just sadness.
Speaker 1 (32:06):
Bernie wants to be a resource for other people who've
been victims of scam artists and narcissists, and the best
way for him to do that is on his TikTok
at Berniet Brown.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
When I went on and I saw the tiktoks around
narcissism and around the discard, the gas lighting, all of that,
that for me was just the awakening moment. Now I
can do that for somebody else out there, and it
does take a little bit of courage, especially if you're
going through it or you are very fresh from a
(32:41):
narcissistic encounter. I just want to be that point of
call and be able to just listen.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
We end every weekly episode with the same question, why
do you want to share your story?
Speaker 2 (32:58):
I know for a fact that there's thousands of leos
around the world. That's why this conversation, I think is massively,
massively important. You know, if I'd have known about certain
things beforehand, maybe i'd have acted differently. Maybe I would't
have gone through what I'd have gone through. Maybe I'd
(33:20):
have acted differently halfway through and I wouldn't have suffered
as much. But you know, what's happened to me is done.
But if I can share and open somebody else's eyes,
and say, you know, if this ain't right, then it's
worth it.
Speaker 1 (33:42):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly is.
Speaker 3 (33:45):
Like, fine, I just want you to know if you
continue down this path, I will take every single cent
I have and every single cent you have, and I
will spend it burning you to the ground.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your Betrayal story, email
us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at
Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram
at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content,
(34:27):
and connect with the Betrayal community, join our substack at
Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful for your support.
One way to show support is by subscribing to our
show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A
big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is
a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment
(34:50):
Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive
produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason. Hosted and produced
by me Andrea Gunning, Written and produced by Olivia Hewitt
and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Casting support
from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and
Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vicio.
(35:15):
Additional audio editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by
Oliver Bain's music library provided by my Music And. For
more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,
or wherever you get your podcasts,
Host
Andrea Gunning
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Las Culturistas with Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang
Ding dong! Join your culture consultants, Matt Rogers and Bowen Yang, on an unforgettable journey into the beating heart of CULTURE. Alongside sizzling special guests, they GET INTO the hottest pop-culture moments of the day and the formative cultural experiences that turned them into Culturistas. Produced by the Big Money Players Network and iHeartRadio.
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.