Betrayal LIVE! on Virgin Voyages

Hear Betrayal’s first-ever live show with Andrea Gunning and our Betrayal storytellers, onboard Virgin Voyages’ True Crime Cruise. We hear updates from Stacey and Tyler, Karoline and her kids. We discuss survivor-centered true crime and what it’s like to have your real life turned into a true crime podcast. It’s an emotional and in-depth conversation about the kind of work we do, and what it means to the people who are at the center of it.  

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us at [e-mail] and follow us on Instagram at @betrayalpod. To access our newsletter and additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our Substack at betrayal.substack.com.

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hi everyone, it's Andrea. This week, we're doing something a
little different. My producer Monique and I spent last week
at sea with Virgin Voyages, where we produced Betrayal's first
ever live show. Stacy, Tyler and Michaela from Betrayal Season
three joined us, as well as Caroline and her kids

(00:22):
from season four.

Speaker 2 (00:24):
If you listen to our show, you know that.

Speaker 1 (00:26):
Stacy's husband, Justin pled guilty to sexual abuse of a minor,
including his abuse of his step son Tyler, and in
season four, Caroline's husband Joel was caught having sex in.

Speaker 3 (00:36):
His police patrol car.

Speaker 1 (00:38):
He had carried on multiple affairs during their marriage, including
some that happened while he was on duty. Together, we
had an incredible conversation about Survivor Center true Crime and
what it's like to have your real life turned into
a true crime podcast. It's an emotional and in depth
conversation about the kind of work we do and what
it means to the people who are at the center it.

Speaker 3 (01:01):
We hope you enjoy.

Speaker 2 (01:20):
Hi everyone, I'm Andrea Gunning. I'm the host and producer
of Betrayal.

Speaker 4 (01:27):
I'm Monique, I'm a producer on Betrayal. I'm going to
be moderating tonight so that Andrea can really be in
the conversation because she has poured her soul into this show,
and she's also been a leader in the podcast industry
bringing this show to TV, which we're on season three.
A betrayal on Hulu.

Speaker 1 (01:47):
Just came out last month. When I started this show
in twenty nineteen, I didn't know if one person would listen,
if two people would listen. I could have never imagined
being on a cruise doing our first live show.

Speaker 2 (02:03):
I know, it's really crazy for those of you that
don't know what Betrayal is.

Speaker 1 (02:10):
It's a project where we focus on families whose lives
have been upended due to devastating betrayal, and we focus
on the crime and the aftermath, but it's really a
show about strength and resilience. Yeah, and so tonight we're
going to focus on two families. The family from season three,

(02:30):
which is Stacy Tyler and Mikaela's story, and the family
from season four about Caroline Brega and her kids.

Speaker 4 (02:39):
For a lot of the survivors we're going to bring
out tonight, this is their first ever time talking about
their story to a live audience, and It's a little
strange to be on stage clapping and cheering for some
of the worst things that have ever happened to someone.
It can kind of feel like that, you know, true
crime cruise. But we're really here to celebrate the survivors

(03:02):
and the bravery and courage of these families to tell
their stories, and that's what we're celebrating.

Speaker 1 (03:11):
So, without further ado, let's all welcome Stacy, Tyler, and Mikayla.

Speaker 5 (03:24):
Hey, y'all, how you doing.

Speaker 6 (03:26):
How you feeling good? Good, amazing, A little nervous.

Speaker 4 (03:32):
You know, Stacy, the documentary came out a month ago.
It seems like a lot of people here are already
familiar with your story, are listeners of Betrayal.

Speaker 5 (03:42):
So I want to start with what it was like for.

Speaker 6 (03:44):
You to see your I see.

Speaker 4 (03:48):
Your emotional right now, what it was like to see
your life played back on a true crime documentary.

Speaker 6 (03:54):
I don't think it was something that I ever thought
would happen. It was just a little different seeing it.
I know, me and Tyler have had conversations like it
wasn't our story, Like we were like, oh, what's gonna
happen next? Like we didn't know, But yeah, there were
some moments that were tough. I think when they went
back to the good times or the good times that

(04:16):
we thought were they were a little hard. We were
lucky to kind of sit through each other's interviews, so
the things that we talked about were not new to
us when the documentary come out because we got to
sit and be a part of that with each other.
So that was good. I think that helped us to
kind of prepare for what was going to be on TV.

Speaker 4 (04:38):
Yeah, Tyler, what about for you? What was it like
to see it all together watch it back?

Speaker 7 (04:42):
I mean kind of just like similar to what my
mom said, a lot of just like ooh, this looks good,
like it isn't our story. But really the biggest thing
for me was just finally seeing it in person, and
like knowing that people would see my face with me
being so young and everything I'd been through. Is really
big to me that I get my story out there

(05:02):
and I show a lot of other young men that
this is not so uncommon and a lot of other
men go through these struggles. So it was a really
good moment for me. I was really happy to see
it in real time.

Speaker 4 (05:15):
Yeah, and you've already experienced people reaching out to you
after the documentary.

Speaker 7 (05:19):
Yeah, I mean it's when it first came out, it
was I couldn't even keep up with all the messages.
I mean there was hundreds a day, and still what
two months later? At this point, I probably get at
least five to ten to day, which is still like
pretty crazy. I've had businesses hit me with job offers
to work at a gym as a personal trainer. I've

(05:41):
had some pretty big celebrities hit me up to continue
telling my story and do some pretty big things.

Speaker 5 (05:46):
So I'm excited for that.

Speaker 4 (05:48):
Yeah, we're all so excited for you.

Speaker 6 (05:50):
I'm proud of you.

Speaker 4 (05:51):
I want to talk about updates since the documentary came out.

Speaker 7 (05:56):
Uh yeah, So my stepfather, who you all saw in
this documentary, he is currently suing me for defamation. Yeah, yeah,
defamation made it all up. Yeah, suing me for defamation
because everything I said was a lie. I wish I
could show you all the papers. It's a bunch of bullshit.

Speaker 5 (06:17):
I'm gonna be real, I'm blunt.

Speaker 7 (06:19):
I'm not gonna hide who I am.

Speaker 8 (06:24):
Thank you guys.

Speaker 7 (06:25):
Yeah, but he he wants to sue me for coming
out and talking. But I hope he knows. All that
does is motivate me to keep coming.

Speaker 4 (06:34):
Yeah, Andrea, do you want to talk about that a
little bit? About the defamation lawsuit and like the ways
that we see those being used, I think to manipulate
a lot of times storytellers and try to silence people
from telling their stories survivors.

Speaker 1 (06:48):
Yeah, I just think it was a scare tactic to
try to keep Tyler from speaking.

Speaker 2 (06:53):
And you know, oftentimes.

Speaker 1 (06:55):
We see perpetrators try to control this story, and I
think he was used to being in control for a
really long time. And you know, you've got a great
attorney and you're working on it.

Speaker 9 (07:10):
Yep.

Speaker 6 (07:11):
You know, his lawyer told me, you have to have
character to say a defamation of character, and we've clearly
proven that you don't have character. So you know, everybody's
a jail house lawyer, so we knew this was going
to happen. He's filing appeals as well, because he's throwing

(07:33):
anything at the wall to make it stick and whatever.
He's trying to appeal his sentence because it was too long. Boohoo.
We know that this is something that we're probably going
to have to deal with for the rest of our lives.
Because that is his right, I've been told. But you know,
in the end, he just constantly keeps bearing himself because

(07:54):
the district attorney told me, the more appeals you file,
the more it looks like you show no remorse. So
she said, every time he does this, it's another nail
in his coffin. So we fully intend that he's going
to put himself there for his maximum sentence.

Speaker 4 (08:08):
We're going to bring your oldest daughter, Mikaela in in
a second. But I want to talk about the family
decision to participate in first the podcast and then the
Hulu documentary.

Speaker 6 (08:19):
When they reached out to me about the podcast, I
immediately talked to Mikaela and Tyler about it because it's
not my story, it's all of our stories. I wasn't
going to exploit my child by going out and speaking
without his knowledge. So I told him, if we do this,
we do it all together. And it was just something
that we felt, I think that we needed to do

(08:42):
for healing, and just we wanted to take something like
this and turn it into something good, and we knew
that that was the only way that we could do
it was to just make for people more aware because
I think when you first have this happen to you,
you have so many people come up to you and say,
oh my gosh, you know that that happened to me,
or that happened to my brother or this, and you don't.
You have no idea how many people you know that

(09:05):
have dealt with the same thing. I think we have
a lot of broken people in this world, and I
think it's because a lot of people say silent about
these things. So I think our hope was that we
could reach a lot more hurting men and just change
the world.

Speaker 7 (09:19):
Uh yeah, pretty much second that. But yeah, going into
all this, it was just about I knew what I
had been through, you know, searching the web looking things
up as a child, going through all this, I genuinely
thought I was the only boy in the world who
knew what this was like. And I thought I was
the only boy in the world who had went through
something like this. And that was a big part of

(09:40):
the reason why I never talked. I never I never
did anything to make a change because I thought this
was just my life, this is where I was stuck.
No one would understand me. But as I've gone throughout
this journey, I've shared my story talk to endless people.
I've realized it's an epidemic. To be honest, it's crazy,
the amount of men that I've realized to have went

(10:01):
through the exact same things I have. They say it's
one in six, but with all the people I've talked to,
it's probably even higher than that. I wouldn't be surprised
if it was more one in four one in three.
You're not alone if you're a man who'd been through
something like this. And when I was represented the opportunity
to come through, do this, use my story to give
other men what I didn't have. I couldn't pass it up.

Speaker 4 (10:27):
Andre, you've worked on the story now two years more almost,
so you know a big part of production we spend
hours and hours and hours and hours. A lot of
those moments never make it to air. Especially with the
Hulu documentary, you're filming a lot of things that never
make it to air. So can you tell me about
some of those moments?

Speaker 1 (10:48):
Yeah, I mean, there was one scene that we shoed
Tyler and that was my favorite scene to do.

Speaker 2 (10:54):
I hate even calling it a scene, but it was.
And we were just like working out talking.

Speaker 1 (11:00):
About life and where you are now and I've known
you for two years and you've grown so much, and
I think one of the things that you were working
on is learning to stop thinking about life in the
conditional way, like if I do this, then I'll be happy.
If I get here, I'll be happy. If this happens,

(11:23):
I'll be okay. Because that's what happens when survivors of abuse,
they go through that, because that exchange is conditional, it's transactional.

Speaker 2 (11:35):
And I feel like you've.

Speaker 1 (11:37):
Come such a long way to just be present and
figure out who you want to be and do what
you want to do. And we talked about that in
the scene and that was like my favorite, and it
didn't make it to air.

Speaker 2 (11:51):
I think, Michela, you have a scene too that you love.

Speaker 6 (11:54):
Yeah, I had a scene.

Speaker 10 (11:57):
Tyler made a comment to me about how he was
very thankful that I was like the stronghold for our
family and that he was very sorry that I was
kind of put on the back burner, Like it was
just very sweet, very emotional moment that I think a

(12:17):
lot of people needed to see.

Speaker 5 (12:20):
And that got cut too.

Speaker 6 (12:21):
Mikayla's kind of I don't want to say his silent victim,
but I think that you know, all of the focus
was really on like Tyler and his healing and what
happened to him, And it was a really good moment
for us to say to you that, you know, we
were sorry that you kind of got faded into the

(12:43):
background a little bit, because that's was never anyone's intention,
you know, So it was it was a sweet moment
between everybody, and we were really sad when the documentary
came out. We were like, man, that was such a
good moment.

Speaker 4 (12:55):
Yeah, like your mom was saying, you know, you're part
of the story. Can sometimes get overshadowed, but if it
was not for you, we might not be sitting here.
So can you tell me a little bit about reporting
to the police what that experience was for you.

Speaker 10 (13:09):
Yeah, So, for those of you that didn't listen, Tyler's friend,
who is I guess we'll call him, for lack of
better terms, the first victim. He reached out to me
and disclosed to me that my stepdad had done this
to him, and like full disclosure. I was driving and

(13:32):
I opened the message and immediately started like bawling, and
of course, like forty million things are going through my head,
one thing being this is why you don't text and drive.

Speaker 1 (13:43):
But.

Speaker 10 (13:45):
I mean, so I pulled over, had like a two
minute cry, and then I was.

Speaker 2 (13:51):
Like work mode.

Speaker 10 (13:53):
At the time, I worked at an outpatient psychiatry office,
so I was like a mandated reporter, and so I
immediately went to work mode and was like, Okay, these
are the steps I need to do, and I'm going
to do them. I do not care that he is
my stepdad. I don't care who the fuck he is.

(14:13):
And now the scary part, I guess for me was
that this was different. At work, I just make a report,
but here he was already under investigation for the cameras,
and so I was like, okay, I feel like I
need to talk to a detective or something like.

Speaker 5 (14:35):
I don't know.

Speaker 10 (14:36):
It was just like something in my brain didn't care
that he was a father figure to me. It was like,
let's get this done, let's do the right thing.

Speaker 4 (14:46):
And then that next few hours moved really quickly.

Speaker 10 (14:50):
Yeah, So I drove about an hour and a half
or so to the police station, and then when I
got there, I gave them my phone. They took all
the evidence off of it, all the messages with his friend,
and then they were like, oh, well, while you're here,

(15:10):
let's go through this binder. And they opened it and
it was photos of friends, family, anything you can think of.
In the bathroom, they had me identify everybody, and then
they whipped out another binder, and that binder was all me.

Speaker 6 (15:33):
I saw my husband on some.

Speaker 10 (15:34):
Photos, and then.

Speaker 5 (15:37):
After that I left.

Speaker 6 (15:38):
I called mom immediately.

Speaker 10 (15:41):
She's like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm
leaving work.

Speaker 6 (15:44):
I'm grabbing my kids and we're going. And I was like, well,
I have.

Speaker 10 (15:48):
A tiny, little one bedroom apartment, but you could stay
with me. Poor Tommy he didn't even know any of
this because it was like so fast everything's happening that
I didn't get time to tell him until he was
already off work. And I was like, hey, by the way,
mom and the kids are coming to our tiny little guys,

(16:08):
right like our tiny little nine hundred square foot one
bedroom apartment. I worked from home for a few days,
try to help mom with the kids, try.

Speaker 2 (16:18):
To figure life out.

Speaker 4 (16:20):
And then Tyler came forward, Yeah, we're going to talk
more about that time period and kind of like survival
mode and how that gets represented in true crime stories.
But I also want to talk about your position as
the eldest daughter.

Speaker 5 (16:32):
And Tyler's big sister.

Speaker 4 (16:33):
Can you tell me from your perspective what it's been
like to watch Tyler's journey of coming forward and then
getting to the place where he is today.

Speaker 5 (16:42):
Yeah.

Speaker 6 (16:42):
Absolutely.

Speaker 10 (16:44):
Just watching him help other people is something that I
can't even explain to anybody, what kind of feeling that
is inside as somebody who was his caretaker for a
long time.

Speaker 6 (16:58):
Yeah, yeah, well thank you.

Speaker 4 (17:00):
What about for you, Stacy, watching Tyler go on this
journey over the past few years with the show, what
has that been like for you as a mom?

Speaker 6 (17:10):
I don't think anybody can never understand what betrayal did
for us. You know, we had a lot of people
say things like, you know, gosh, why would you want
to share that? Or why do you want to go
national with that? And this and that? And I had
those moments, especially when people can be very cruel online
and judge. But I think seeing him grow and also

(17:34):
just seeing the men that have came behind him and said,
you know, I'm fifty some years old and I've never
told anybody this in my life. There are people that
are free because of you, And I'm incredibly proud to
be your mother, and I don't care what anybody says.
And I don't care. You know, if someone thinks I

(17:57):
did something wrong, I think I did things wrong. If
I was watching my documentary, I would have been like
m girl. I would have talked about myself. It's true.
You know, when you're in those kind of moments, you
know you're just coming from a place of just sheer chaos.
But I'm just incredibly proud to be your mom.

Speaker 7 (18:17):
Well, thank you guys.

Speaker 6 (18:20):
He still don't take the trash out enough, though, we
could work on that.

Speaker 5 (18:26):
She's lying.

Speaker 2 (18:43):
Welcome back.

Speaker 1 (18:44):
We took a short break to bring out Caroline Barrega
from season four, along with her two kids. Her daughter
Nicole was on stage and her son participated from the
audience to protect his anonymity.

Speaker 6 (18:56):
Thank you all so much for being here.

Speaker 5 (18:58):
Thank you for having us.

Speaker 4 (19:00):
Caroline, you know I want to hear a little bit
in your words about what you went through.

Speaker 5 (19:06):
It was an infamous Monday afternoon.

Speaker 11 (19:09):
I was at work and I opened my laptop and
I was in an online meeting, and I saw my
phone go off. There was a chime, and I saw
that there were cameras around our house, and that there
was some movement, and as I looked at it, I
noticed that my now ex husband was dragging up the
trash cans, and I thought to myself, Oh, that's strange

(19:31):
what he's doing home so early. Maybe he was out
on an investigation or something happened and he just ran
by to grab some lunch. And I continue to watch,
and then it dawned on me, where's his take home
cop car? The take home cop car wasn't in the driveway,
and so I texted him and I said, hey, is
everything okay? And he didn't respond, and hey, is everything okay?
I noticed that you're home really early, and I just

(19:53):
continued to watch the little dots the three ellipses on
my phone bounce, and finally he respond and he said, no,
everything's not okay.

Speaker 5 (20:03):
I fucked up the worst I've ever fucked up in
my life.

Speaker 11 (20:05):
You're going to want to divorce me. And I was scared,
and I thought, you know what happened, And so after
several attempts, he finally answered the phone, and he was
very stoic about it and just let me know what
he did. And I was able to maintain my composure.
I gently closed my laptop and then I walked out

(20:26):
and I made it to a street corner before I
just completely lost it and I said, what have you done?
And he just emphasized repeatedly, I'm sorry. I'm so sorry, Caroline.
You have to tell the kids. Reporters are going to
start calling the house. You have to tell the kids.
And I didn't know what to do.

Speaker 5 (20:42):
I drove home.

Speaker 11 (20:43):
I don't remember driving home, and when I got to
the house, I was just kind of pacing. And Nicole
came home and she was very jovial, her typical self,
and she said, Hey, who doing my job for me?
Who brought the trash up today? I mean, it's ironic,
the stuff you remember in times of trauma. And I

(21:05):
just sat there staring at her, and she said, are
you okay?

Speaker 5 (21:09):
And I said no, and she said, is daddy okay.
I didn't even know how to respond, and I just
said no.

Speaker 11 (21:17):
And she got kind of this shock, because when you're
a cops kid, you live in fear that something happens
to your dad.

Speaker 5 (21:24):
And the next.

Speaker 11 (21:26):
Words out of her mouth were, did he get caught
cheating on you? And I just stared at her. And
for those of you who have listened to the podcast.
I can assure you my son graduated with honors from
a very prestigious university. But she did call him because

(21:48):
we didn't have the rule book or a handbook on
how you handle when a disclosure.

Speaker 5 (21:52):
Like this happens.

Speaker 11 (21:53):
And she said, hey, I got to talk to you.

Speaker 5 (21:56):
It's an emergency.

Speaker 11 (21:57):
And he said, hey, I'm getting ready to take a
chem exam and she's like, no, it's an emergency. So again,
I can assure you he did pass. Everything is fine.
Next thing you know, our life was just a whirlwind
and a snowball, and I went into autopilot and trying
to make sure that I could have some form of
normalcy and just get by.

Speaker 12 (22:18):
Yeah.

Speaker 4 (22:18):
Yeah, I want to talk a little bit about your
husband's career as a police officer, and you, specifically as
his partner for twenty five years, sacrifice so much personally
to give him those advancements in his career, those late
nights that you were taking care of the house and
the kids, and a big part of your value system

(22:42):
was believing in what he did and the institution he
worked for, and that changed for you overnight. So can
you talk a little bit about what that experience was
like and where you're at with that today.

Speaker 5 (22:58):
Absolutely.

Speaker 11 (22:58):
My ex husband was a very decorated service member for
the community, and we had a room in our home
our office that were filled with just community and commanders commendations.
He joked and called it the love Me Room because
everything in there was all about him, and I showed
all the love from the community of him. I knew

(23:20):
when I married a cop what I was getting into.
I'm not an anomaly of someone who marries into a
law enforcement family. I made a sacrifice of knowing that
I was going to have to be with the kids
alone at night, and I would be the person who
would be aerating the field when I'm walking across to
take them to practice and to dance class, and that

(23:40):
it would be something that would be busy. And I
didn't sacrifice everything for me. I too have a career
and do use my brain and my degrees. But I
knew that I would be the person who would be
able to have more flexibility to be there for our family,
and would also be the person who would be able
to support him in his career as well.

Speaker 5 (24:00):
Yeah, you know your.

Speaker 4 (24:01):
Career is something that your job has asked you not
to talk about Otherwise We would love to have featured
it in the podcast and have it be a part
of who you are on the show, but we understand
and we wanted to keep your job.

Speaker 5 (24:12):
So thank you. I really appreciate that.

Speaker 4 (24:14):
Yeah, Dre, can you talk a little bit about Caroline's
story and why it stood out to you as with
the season you wanted to produce next.

Speaker 1 (24:27):
Yeah, I mean it started off as a potential story
for the weekly series, So you were actually working with
Caroline directly, which is a little bit different.

Speaker 2 (24:37):
Yeah, And we were just talking about it in a
production meeting.

Speaker 1 (24:42):
And there was research we had to do and we
had to you know, find these ia.

Speaker 5 (24:50):
Files on Joel Internal Affairs.

Speaker 1 (24:53):
Thank you, and we finally got them back and there
was so much there and we said to each other,
this can't just be a weekly We need to do
ten episodes on this story.

Speaker 4 (25:09):
It's very rare working in media to get internal affarious
investigations audio files from police investigations, and so we said,
you know, this is something that we need to follow.

Speaker 5 (25:19):
Yeah.

Speaker 1 (25:20):
Yeah, And so that was the beginning of everything. Yeah,
and you had already had a relationship with Mo and
I'm like, hi, you know, and you know, we get
this question a lot, like why this story, and I
oftentimes especially from law enforcement, like I've seen so much.

(25:41):
This isn't the worst case ever. You know, it's important
for Betrayal to focus on stories that really feel like
the every day, that feel like it could be your
neighbor or your friend, because it feels accessible and then
we can understand it. And that's why I thought your

(26:02):
story was important to share.

Speaker 4 (26:04):
Yeah, absolutely, so I want to talk to you, Nicole Hi. Hi.
You're the one who originally found Betrayal, so in a
lot of ways, you're another reason we're here on stage.

Speaker 5 (26:17):
Yes, you're welcome.

Speaker 4 (26:20):
What has it been like for you to watch your
mom over the past three years, you know, since your
dad's actions came to light, but also this past year
in particular producing the podcast.

Speaker 9 (26:31):
She's always been such a like independent and powerful woman.
So seeing her go through the twenty twenty two year,
which was you know, infamous year, that was of course
really hard because she just wasn't herself. But ever since

(26:53):
we kind of got our footing as a new family,
a family as three, she's really grown and to someone
that people go to, whether that's women that have experienced
cheating and whatever else, or even women in our own
police department where this happened come to her as like

(27:15):
a source of comfort and be a person that people
can lean on.

Speaker 4 (27:23):
Carolyn, Before I want to ask some questions to both
of your kids. But before we do, I want to
talk a little bit more about the institutional betrayal of
the police department, because that was also a place where
you put a lot of time and energy in and
I think expected some support back. Institutional betrayal is a

(27:43):
term we recently learned from this research psychologist doctor Jennifer
Fried and it's a different experience than the interpersonal betrayal
you had with your ex husband, And I want to
talk a little bit about how that felt different, what
that felt like.

Speaker 11 (27:55):
Sure, it's a phenomena when you're in a lawnforcement family.
And I can say without making a big disclosure, I
work in a very closely law enforcement related field, and
when you're a part of a law enforcement family, law
enforcement tends to hang out with law enforcement. These were
people who were at the births of my kids. They
showed up shortly thereafter with gifts. We did family functions together,

(28:20):
we celebrated together. There was law enforcement lined up In
our wedding party, my ex husband's groom's cake was a
pig with a badge on it. So this was our
life and it was a big piece of it. And
I can tell you that you become fiercely protective of
each other. And I had this big belief that, yes,

(28:44):
there are bad apples and every organization, but they're few
and far between. I would chant that to myself. I
was extremely protective over other law enforcement families, and you
just become this big unit together. And as my ex
husband's double life began to unravel, I lost all that.

(29:06):
So I didn't just lose my nuclear family, I lost
my extended family within the law enforcement community.

Speaker 5 (29:14):
And it was just vanished.

Speaker 11 (29:18):
My facade of what I had tried to raise my
kids to believe about law enforcement and trusting law enforcement,
what I believed about it completely vanished. So it was
just not grief of my nuclear family, it was grief
of my community.

Speaker 4 (29:32):
Yeah, you know, like Andrea said, we first started working together,
and I remember in the beginning, about a year and
a half ago, before we did our very first interview,
you were understandably very cautious about participating in this. So
can you tell me a little bit about what you
were weighing when you were deciding do I want to
tell this story publicly.

Speaker 11 (29:53):
It's not the most comfortable feeling to reveal the most
private details of your life life, and I was really
struggling with how I wanted to approach this. I was
living in this silence and this constant internal thought of,
oh my gosh, how did this happen to me?

Speaker 5 (30:14):
How did this happen?

Speaker 11 (30:15):
And I think that's really why the podcast drew me
in so much. There's an episode in season one where
it's the very first time I ever heard the term
betrayal trauma, betrayal therapy, and I am not too proud
to admit it. I listened to that episode at least
a dozen times. I just resonated with me so much,
and it was just really, really difficult to really imagine

(30:36):
putting myself out there. It was scary because I didn't
want to have this define my kids. It certainly has
shaped them, but it certainly does not define them whatsoever.
And I work in a law enforcement related community, so
this was really difficult for me to in essence call
out some of my colleagues.

Speaker 5 (30:57):
And put that on blast.

Speaker 11 (31:00):
But you know, I remember those conversations very very well,
and I would love to go back and tell myself,
oh my god, suck it up, Buttercup, put your head up,
throw your shoulders back, and be the damn voice for
women who are living in terror and shame to discuss this.

Speaker 4 (31:16):
Hell yeah wow. I'm going to pivot to Caroline's son
in the audience and have you too, talk as her children.
I mean, you know you have said that this was
a family decision, and I remember when you were weighing
if you wanted to do this. A big part of
it was I got to talk to my kids. I

(31:37):
got to make sure my kids are okay with this.
So I want to hear about what those conversations were
like with y'all as a family, about are we on
board with this, are we going to participate? Are we
going to support our mom in this?

Speaker 6 (31:48):
What was that like for y'all? Nicole, do you want
to start?

Speaker 5 (31:52):
Yeah? So, when my mom.

Speaker 9 (31:56):
First came to us discussing the possibility of us doing
the podcast and going forward with everything, I of course
wanted my mom's narrative out there, our family's narrative out there,
because we were so silent. People just assumed or they
just flat out told lies about our family, and of

(32:18):
course my dad's presence in my town didn't help with that.
So that was the main reason why I wanted to
do this, or we wanted to do this as a
family unit, to just put our voice out there and
say we're solidified in our new sense of reality and

(32:40):
this is how we're going to move forward. And even
though all of this happened, we came out on the
other side stronger.

Speaker 8 (32:51):
I think it boils down to two main reasons. I
think seeing the effect that the podcast had on both
with my mom and my sister and the value that
they got from it, I think that was huge. And
I also think that it takes courage to platform these stories,
and it.

Speaker 6 (33:10):
Takes courage to tell these stories, and I.

Speaker 8 (33:13):
Think people need to hear them and the messages that
we receive on a daily basis of people saying what
we said listening to the podcast initially, you know this
could be us, and so I think it's important to
let people know that you can go through these unfortunate circumstances,
to say the least, and make it out on the

(33:34):
other side.

Speaker 4 (33:36):
Yeah, and I think that Caroline Son, the way that
we have navigated your privacy and your participation in this show,
you know, shows that there are different ways that you
can incorporate different members of the family that have different
comfort levels with their exposure. So can you talk a

(33:58):
little bit about why it was important for you to
be a voice on the show and participate actively.

Speaker 8 (34:04):
Well, you have these prominent community members and law enforcement
and other related fields just saying blatant lies about my
entire family, and obviously that didn't sit right with any
of us. And so it's not about getting the truth
where it's not about getting our truth out there. It's

(34:24):
literally just the truth out to the community. And that
was a part of it. And I think also just
this experience brought us closer together. And I think that
having a unified front, and I'm appreciative of the accommodations
to my privacy requests and all that, but being a

(34:44):
unified front was huge and I'm honored to be a
part of it, and I'm proud of them.

Speaker 1 (34:54):
I think what people often forget is, aside from the affairs,
what Joel was doing was planting seeds about who you
were as a person, as a wife, as a mother.

Speaker 2 (35:09):
Behind the scenes, so if he.

Speaker 1 (35:12):
Ever did get caught by a colleague, they would say, well,
could you blame him? Like he was creating a story
about you and you know, putting your reputation.

Speaker 2 (35:23):
On the line.

Speaker 1 (35:24):
So it was so much more than just the sexual
misconduct within the CESPD. It was how he was using
you and your image and what you've done for your
family against you so that he could just get away
with it. And that's I think really important because when
we started working together, You're like, I want my truth

(35:46):
to be told because he took that away from you.

Speaker 4 (35:50):
You really did, you know, truth and transparency has become
a theme of the family that y'all have rebuilt with
the three of you, And so I want to talk
about what that looks like when you have two adult
children and you're saying, now we're pivoting new family and
we're going to reconvene and make new values. So what

(36:12):
does it mean to have truth and transparency be such
a big value in your family. I think I'm going
to let my kids take that one.

Speaker 9 (36:20):
Well, going off of this like new family, everything happened
in April, and then after that we recognize that little
things in our family we just kind of let slide.
As I'm sure many other families can relate, like certain
fights that we had, or behaviors.

Speaker 5 (36:41):
Or whatever else we just didn't want to bring up.

Speaker 2 (36:44):
And so moving.

Speaker 9 (36:46):
Forward with my mom, my brother, and myself, we realize
that we just want to be our authentic selves, and
to do that comes truth and accountability and recognizing each
other's paths and really just being each other's advocates.

Speaker 8 (37:07):
And we had to go through this process of healing together,
and it's a nonlinear process. It doesn't get better every
single day. There's good days and bad days. We still
have good days and bad days. We're still healing. But
I think it's the understanding of we're in it together
and we're gonna go through this together for the rest

(37:30):
of our time here. And I think that was important too.
And part of that after facing so many lies and
such profound deception and having that all come to light,
obviously truth and transparency has to be a bedrock of
a new foundation after you face that.

Speaker 11 (37:49):
The other piece that I had to face was the
fact that certain things I tried to not say, and
at one point, this one here looked at me and said,
do not lie to me anymore. He lied to us enough,
and it's our turn to be able to make choices
on if we're going to show up to something or
do something.

Speaker 5 (38:09):
Do not lie to me like he did. So I said,
you have my word from here on out, no more.

Speaker 4 (38:16):
Andrea, I want to talk a little bit about institutional courage,
which we as a production team encountered this term this year,
and we've seen it in both of these families.

Speaker 1 (38:27):
Yeah, I mean, family is an institution and it takes
courage to lead with truth and transparency to make sure
these things don't happen in the future. And so I
think by you guys sharing and knowing what was actually
happening so you can make your own choices, that takes

(38:50):
institutional courage. And you know, obviously there's the CSPD of
it all. There are a lot of people inside CSPD
that has known what Joel has been doing for a
really long time, but we're too afraid to speak out
because they didn't want to throw a name out there

(39:12):
and have backlash. So I mean, it takes courage to
come forward. But what's happening and what we researched at
CSPD is that's not happening, And so Hopefully by bringing
awareness of what's going on with the misconduct, someone will
do the right thing.

Speaker 2 (39:47):
Welcome back.

Speaker 1 (39:47):
We're sharing the audio from our first ever Betrayal live show.
We're talking with Stacy Tyler and Mikaela from Betrayal season
three and Caroline Borega with her two kids from season four.
One of our Betrayal Pretty there is. Monique moderated the event,
so I'll throw it back to her.

Speaker 4 (40:04):
All right, So I want to transition to talking as
a big group, and I want to start just by
talking about what it's like to be in person together.
This was a little experiment that we were asked to
participate in and we didn't know how it would go.

Speaker 6 (40:18):
So what has it been like?

Speaker 4 (40:19):
You know, you've had very different experiences, but you've also
had a core similarity.

Speaker 11 (40:25):
I can tell you that after the first episode aired,
I received an email from one of the producers who said, Hey,
Stacy wants to talk to you, and she's asking if
we can share your information.

Speaker 5 (40:39):
Is that okay?

Speaker 11 (40:40):
And I said sure and fast friends and sisterhood in
this camaraderie in this crazy ass way, and it was
like trial by fire and she was like.

Speaker 5 (40:53):
Don't do x Y and Z don't read X Y
and Z do.

Speaker 11 (40:56):
She did, and it's been I felt like I knew
her before we even stepped on the ship. It's been
incredible and I'm very grateful for you.

Speaker 6 (41:09):
Yeah, I feel the same way. We you know, we've
had a bond that I think will always you know,
will always have I'm sure Ya Ashley and Jen and
all of them feel the same way. There's a lot
of these get this shit text message, you know, and
you can't make this up, like you know, especially with
a lawsuit.

Speaker 4 (41:30):
You know.

Speaker 6 (41:30):
I was like, oh my god, girl, get this. But yeah,
it's been it's been incredible and we've we've made some
really great, great memories on this trip and just really
incredible people.

Speaker 4 (41:42):
What's it been like for you, Drey to see everyone
come together and also meet listeners.

Speaker 1 (41:49):
I think it was you who mentioned we should do
it like a retreat or like a girls weekend, and
I was like, hell yeah. But then this came about
like a few weeks later, so maybe this is a
trial run.

Speaker 2 (42:02):
And it's actually really great because you.

Speaker 1 (42:06):
Understand betrayal, you understand deception and how that can really
fundamentally change your sense of reality and make you question
yourself and the decisions that you made, especially in moments
of survival and just trying to get through the next day,
like I just need to wake up, get my clothes on,

(42:28):
and get out the door, and those little things you
guys can relate to on a very specific level.

Speaker 2 (42:36):
And so I knew you guys would hit it off.

Speaker 1 (42:39):
This has been such a joy, and I think it's
just a testament to our community and it growing.

Speaker 6 (42:45):
It was either going to be this or we were
going to crash Andrea's wedding. I was like, I don't
know if you know, but I'm coming, even if I
got to sit in a little table outside just peek in.
She was like, oh no, we're having a whole betrayal table.

Speaker 4 (43:02):
I want to talk about the experience of actually living
through what y'all have been through versus the product.

Speaker 6 (43:08):
That we see at the end.

Speaker 4 (43:10):
You know, what is it in total five hours of
audio or three hours of video that is so different
from what you actually lived through. And so I want
to open it up to y'all to talk about what
was a surprise to you and what was difficult to
see or maybe really rewarding to see, but a little

(43:32):
bit more about what it was like to see the
things you had really gone through turned into a true
crime podcast, a true crime docu series.

Speaker 6 (43:43):
I think I could.

Speaker 10 (43:43):
Start with that it actually wasn't too bad, because I
have to be honest, nothing beats actually living through it,
so it's almost like you're a little desensitized. But I
think the hardest part for me was the recreation of
the scene where Tyler tried to kill himself. He had

(44:07):
called me at the time and I was two and
a half hours away, and so like watching the re enactment,
which I am well aware was dramatized and there was actors,
but like just feeling that again that I could have
lost him, that really messed with me for a little bit.

Speaker 6 (44:30):
I think for us it was it was an incredibly
healing experience that I don't think we realized was going
to be what it was even when we watched it
or listened to the week's episode, because like I said,
it's almost like you're listening to someone else's story even
though it is yours. And we would just sit down
afterwards and we'd be like, that is crazy. These questions

(44:52):
that they think of that just would get you thinking
of things and then we would go on these almost
therapy sessions, you know, our car rides home, because we
went up to Pennsylvania to film, it's about a three
hour drive. These three hour car rides we would spend
having like our own little therapy session, you know. So
for us, you know, we're incredibly thankful to you, because

(45:15):
I think healing started with betrayals. So you know, you
may not have thought that it was going to do anything,
or one people or two people was going to listen
to it, but I can tell you that it's been
instrumental in all of our healing. Completely, I don't know it.
You know you probably feel the same way.

Speaker 5 (45:31):
Absolutely.

Speaker 4 (45:36):
Has participating in Betrayal in this production changed the way
you think about true crime content, Like when you go
to consume a podcast, watch a podcast, and watch a podcast,
listen to a podcast, or watch something. Has it changed
the way you approach that and think about it.

Speaker 5 (45:53):
I know, for me, it definitely has.

Speaker 10 (45:55):
I grew up watching Dateline twenty twenty true crime. Mom's
been joking all weekend or well however many days we
are now in, but she's been joking this whole time,
Like you know, oh, kids, watch Barney Michaela's watching Dayline.

Speaker 6 (46:12):
She wanted to be Keith Morrison. Baby don't.

Speaker 10 (46:15):
Yeah. So, you know, growing up as a teen early
twenties all that, you know, I watch these true crime
documentaries and I'm like, oh, come the fuck on, like
you knew, like, don't get out of here, and I
would judge. And now I wouldn't go to social media
and talk about it, but I would think that. And

(46:36):
then as this started to unravel, I was like, oh
my god, people are thinking that about me. And so
now when I watch true crime documentaries or listen to
podcasts like I have, my mindset is so different because
in reality, you guys only get, you know, this tiny

(46:59):
little sliver of what happened.

Speaker 5 (47:02):
And on top of.

Speaker 10 (47:03):
That, like you're getting all the information, you know, detectives, policemen, judges,
you know, the whole family.

Speaker 5 (47:15):
Like everybody's giving stories.

Speaker 6 (47:17):
But we didn't have.

Speaker 10 (47:19):
That, you know, we were day by day figuring it out.
And so now like when I watch these shows, I
have to remember, like they probably didn't know, they didn't
have all this ready made, you know, little Kraft mac
and cheese cup ready for them. You know, they had

(47:42):
to go out and make the noodles, and so I
think it's just really changed so much of like how
I view other true crime docuseries.

Speaker 1 (47:53):
One of the questions I get a lot, were there
really any red flags any?

Speaker 2 (47:58):
Huge part about our project is really.

Speaker 1 (48:01):
Explaining that there often are none, because perpetrators like Justin
Joel really good at hiding who they really are. And
so I think when audiences watch true crime and they
have those thoughts, Mikaela, I think it's a form of
safety of like I would see that if it happened

(48:24):
to me, and.

Speaker 2 (48:25):
That's often not the case.

Speaker 1 (48:26):
And that's why we are so open about like not
knowing because you didn't and why would you even think
that your husband could do what he did? Why would
your brain go there? So that's a huge part about betrayal.

Speaker 6 (48:42):
Ashley put it really good in hers and it became
so clear to me when she said it. She said,
you know, it's like this puzzle and you have all
these pieces and in twenty fifteen you might have got
this red flag that in twenty seventeen you might have
got this, and when you're taking it over a course
of the you know, Justin and I were together seven years.

(49:04):
I don't think you didn't think back to something like, oh,
let me put together with that red flag, you know,
let me start collecting the flags. You know when when
you get to the end, then you're like, oh, and
then the puzzle it becomes it becomes clear, it becomes
a puzzle. But you know, in this moment you have
a blue piece and a red piece and a yellow

(49:24):
piece and nothing matches. And then they start to make
you think that you're crazy for feeling this way. And
I know, for me, justin would you know, do things
to me like if there was something I was bothered by,
you know, by him, it would just be like, well,
you know, if that's the kind of husband you think
I am, maybe we should get divorced. And for anyone

(49:45):
who knew me personally, being a wife was something I
took pride in. I took pride in being a good wife.
I loved being a good wife. And when he would
say those things to me, instantly I would kind of
crawl inside myself and think, think, you are a terrible,
terrible wife. How can you think this about this man
who's great to your kids, provided a good home to you,

(50:09):
gave you this life. And so he would take that
and manipulate it. So there's so much more than just oh,
well you know you missed red flags. Well yeah, there's
red flags now now that you've told me. I mean, like,
you know, I look at photos now that when I
took them, I was just like, oh, these are such

(50:29):
sweet moments, and they make me sick now because I
see them in a different way. It was that was
probably one of the hardest things for the documentary was
to see the photos of him and Tyler hugged up
together that I used to think, we're sweet moments of
just a man loving my kids, you know, like a
father should to now realizing how disgusting they were. So

(50:52):
it's you know, you have to give a little bit
of grace. I think I'm saying way with Mikayla as
now you know, I've read my mouth I don't know
how many times, and now if I'm watching TV, you know,
a documentary, and I'm like and then I like sit back,
and I'm like, wait a minute. You know, I don't
know her story. I don't know his story, you know.
So I think we I think we got to give

(51:13):
people a little bit of grace and realize that in
these moments when you're trying to navigate. You know, there's,
like you Caroline said, there's a part of my story
no one knows as well that I wasn't really allowed
to share, and I don't give a shit about sharing
right now is I was also sued civilly by the
boys parents who found the camera. So while this was
all going on, you know, civil attorney, criminal attorney, divorce attorney.

(51:37):
I lost my home, you know, And you're literally just
going from one thing to another every day of trying
to put out fires and make sure that your children
are still eating and not just only bop tarts, you know.
I mean it's the truth. You just cannot You make
the best decision you can at the moment. And did
I Did I screw up? Yeah?

Speaker 11 (51:59):
I can tell you that first year was autopilot, just
absolute autopilot. I just wanted to get by. I am
at you know, anyone who's posted anything on Reddit or
anything else. You can't beat me up anymore than I
beat up myself. I have questioned myself. I question everything
about every decision I ever made. You know, there's an

(52:21):
episode called it's essentially the split screen episode Revisionist History,
and you hear my entire twenty five year relationship with
my ex husband in the span of thirty eight minutes.
And I tell you every single thing now in those
thirty eight minutes that now I have a concern about
and I question all the time. And I did that

(52:42):
for that first year, and you don't really know. It's
like the analogy of the frog in the pot. You
don't know that it's boiling until you're out, and I
can see that it's boiling now that I'm out.

Speaker 4 (52:53):
I want to talk a little bit more about survival
mode with you, Dre, because that's something we talk about
all the time, and to trying to understand and tell
these kind of stories, we often have to tell the
story of that. We have to tell that story of
the survival mode year and all the choices that were
made in that year. But it is so difficult to

(53:13):
convey that experience that you all had. We can't make
a year long podcast, we can't really be in your head.
But can you talk about like the survival brain, the
logic brain, and the ways that we try to make
content that helps people understand that survival mode.

Speaker 1 (53:34):
I think one of the first questions I asked you, Stacy,
when I came to visit you, was like when you
would wake up in the morning after everything happened, Like
what was your first thought? Because when something horrible happens
and your life is falling apart, just opening your eyes

(53:55):
and realizing, no, I'm actually here, this is actually happening,
this is my real life, and I now have to
get up and face the day. And so that's I
remember talking to you about that, and I think it
is important to give people grace and know that when
this happens, they are literally just trying to get through

(54:18):
their day and make a ton of decisions legally financially,
groceries on the table, like it is really hard. And
then with space and if you work at it and
you see a psychologist and you have your community and
your family, you can slowly transition into the analytical brain

(54:38):
and really sit with what happened, think through how it's
occurring for you. And we just want to show our
audience that those are two different experiences and that the
majority of these individuals are living in survival mode for
a year two years, you know, and then with time

(55:01):
and healing you can look back and really start to process.

Speaker 2 (55:04):
But those are two different states of mind.

Speaker 6 (55:08):
Oh yeah. I mean you you wake up and it's just,
you know, life doesn't stop, your bills don't stop, your
work doesn't stop, you know, so you're navigating all this
stuff while still having to make sound rational decisions, and
you open your eyes and you're like Jesus another you know,
like it's another day, and all you do is try

(55:30):
to get through to get to bed that night. You know,
I just if I can make it to bed, if
I can just make it to you know, where I
can go to sleep, I'll just go to sleep and
I'll wake up and it'll be different tomorrow. And then
you wake up and it's another day, and it's just yeah,
it's just but it's a vicious cycle. And living in
that survivor moment, you know, you don't make the greatest

(55:51):
of decisions. I mean, you just can't. You can't. You
do the best you can with what you have at
the moment.

Speaker 4 (55:58):
I think that's one thing that makes the online comments
feel so unfair and so hard for us. We have
to track them as part of our job, as though
we're attracting the comments we get, and some of them
are so personal and so vitriolic, and I think obviously
it says more about the commenter than any of y'all.
So you know, I'm curious how you handle that, because

(56:20):
I think that would make me short circuit.

Speaker 6 (56:24):
At this point, we make it a joke.

Speaker 10 (56:26):
But like somebody at one point made a comment at
one like on I don't know, TikTok or something and
said like, oh, that sister of his, she's just so
conceited and you know, she thinks like she's the shit.
And I was like, well, first, you know, yeah, I'm confident,

(56:46):
but secondly like, okay, you know, not trying to sound ridiculous,
but if I was so conceited and you know, didn't
care about my brother, he wouldn't have gotten no whole
arm tattoo for me.

Speaker 5 (57:03):
So good for you that you thought that.

Speaker 6 (57:07):
What sit each other messages? I'll be like, how you
doing today? You can seated bitch?

Speaker 5 (57:10):
Yeah.

Speaker 10 (57:12):
So you know, now it's like we just turn them
into jokes and it's just a way to, you know,
just laugh about it, because you know, hurt people hurt people, and.

Speaker 5 (57:24):
It's nothing we can do.

Speaker 10 (57:26):
I can't help them, but instead we can just laugh
about it. And I know, Tyler and I even made
a whole TikTok video addressing a lot of the questions
and mean comments that we were getting, specifically about our mom,
and I think that helped a lot clear up a
lot of things.

Speaker 7 (57:45):
Really, about ninety five percent of the comments so on
like the stuff I make, are pretty positive, and then
there's like the five percent like troll. But to be honest,
about eighty five ninety percent of the time that troll
has about third grade grammar or or you can tell
they didn't finish the show because they don't know shit
about what's going on and they're just saying whatever. So

(58:06):
I just kind of ignore the trolls. If it's something
that bad, I'll delete the comment, like if it's on
my own stuff, just because I don't want like other
survivors to see that them to be discouraged. But me
and myself, I just tell them, you know, you can
go fuck yourself.

Speaker 3 (58:20):
That's me.

Speaker 8 (58:21):
I don't care.

Speaker 6 (58:25):
Yeah, we we have a lot of I don't know
if y'all notice, we have a lot of dark humor.
Humor is what carried us through a lot of this.
Some people are uncomfortable with that. But the comments on
the podcast really really got me, and I decided when
the documentary was gonna come out, that if I had
to be the martyr you know, in this, and if

(58:47):
people had to hate me for his story to get
out and for his healing to come, that I was
okay taking that, and that I really didn't give a
shit because I know my truth and you know, we
have an incredible really relationship. You know. I know Caroline
got a lot of shit about, you know, telling her children.
I think it was out, you know, noble, that you

(59:08):
made it a point not to lie to your children.
We have to be honest with our children. We have
to tell our children things that hard things. I know,
I questioned myself a lot, did I tell did I
talk about hard things with my children when they were little?
Of you know that people can do these kinds of
things to you. So I was incredibly proud of you
for telling your children and being truthful. I know I

(59:30):
had a lot of people with my littles that was
just like just telling me died. I'm like, I wish
he would die. I wish that was the truth, but
it's not the truth. And I'm not gonna lie to them.
You know, I tell them in little bits, but you know,
so I mean going back to the comments. But you know,

(59:52):
at the end of the day, Yeah, you just have
to you just kind of have to separate that. But
our way of dealing with that is joking, and we're
we could be pretty nasty, like like tellers. So we're like,
they're probably in their mom's basement in a bean bag,
charity and Cheetos. You know, like we just have to
you just have to do it. It is what it is.

Speaker 11 (01:00:15):
Yeah, I didn't listen to their advice, and uh, you
know some of the things that were said. It is
just very evident that there's a lot of people who
clearly have read a manual that I haven't. I mean,
whatever the title of that book is that says, Hey,
when your high ranking police officer husband blows up your
lives and reporters are getting ready to come to your door,

(01:00:36):
and then he moves out to the family RV, loses
his job and relocates, here's what you should do. Is
that noble that carries that Amazon Prime. So I didn't
have that, and I, you know, how to make decisions
quickly financially, personally, emotionally. I had to make decisions as
a parent, and I was doing the best I could

(01:00:57):
with it. I didn't have a three and four year old,
so this wasn't like I could somehow make a story
up and you know, discuss it like the Toothpaerrier Santa
about why Dad didn't live with us anymore he was
no longer a police officer, and that we were preparing
for reporters to show up at the door. I didn't
have the ability to be able to make something up

(01:01:17):
and lie to them or tell a story or dance
around it. I had to be very direct, very very
very direct, and that's something that was difficult.

Speaker 5 (01:01:26):
It was hard.

Speaker 11 (01:01:27):
It wasn't easy for me by any stretch of the means.
And it wasn't easy to have these really blunt discussions
with my kids. And I will tell you on a
different note, you know, we do cope with dark humor.
We were my son and I were golfing not too
long ago before we came on the cruise and he
just he hit this ball of country mile and it.

Speaker 6 (01:01:46):
Just was gone.

Speaker 5 (01:01:47):
And he was like, yep, that ball left me like
my dad.

Speaker 11 (01:01:51):
So I mean, we say sideway stuff all the time,
and that's how we cope with it. And that's really
dark for a lot of people and hard for people
to hear, but it's what we did. And you know,
there are a lot of things that occurred in our
lives where it was so hard to have these tough
discussions with them, but we had to have the discussions
in order for us to get through. And having them

(01:02:12):
both say, do not lie to me. If something's going on, Preparius,
do not lie to me.

Speaker 6 (01:02:17):
It was hard.

Speaker 11 (01:02:17):
It wasn't easy. It was not It was not something
that I would wish on anyone. So, you know, for
those of you or anyone who you know who does
have that manual, tell them I'm proud of them and
I'm so grateful that they're able to navigate it a
lot better than I did.

Speaker 5 (01:02:32):
I did the best I could.

Speaker 11 (01:02:34):
And the other thing I'll say about it is that
there in some of the comments, people were like, I
am horrified, you know that she had this discussion with
her kids. I'm horrified I had to have the discussion
with my kids.

Speaker 6 (01:02:46):
Absolutely, let's be horrified at the people who did the crime.

Speaker 9 (01:02:50):
Yep.

Speaker 6 (01:02:51):
I want to know, let's be horrified exactly.

Speaker 11 (01:02:53):
And I do want to say that that you know,
Stacy's saying that. I do want to say The part
that makes me so sad about some of those comments
and some of the feedback that I've received from women
who have thanked me for us telling our stories, is
that it's comments like those that keep people silent. Yeah,
so you are a part of the problem and you

(01:03:15):
are damning the solution.

Speaker 4 (01:03:18):
Wo.

Speaker 5 (01:03:19):
I like that.

Speaker 4 (01:03:21):
Yeah, what advice would y'all give to someone who was
considering becoming the subject of a true crime podcast?

Speaker 11 (01:03:32):
Don't read the comments, I would have to say, don't
be afraid.

Speaker 10 (01:03:40):
As I started seeing messages that Tyler was getting and
I was getting, and Mom was getting, and the betrayal
podcasts were getting, you know, I'm like, Wow, if we
all would have lived in fear, these people may not
have ever had that and may not have ever come forward, Ford,
may not have ever said their peace. And that's really sad.

(01:04:05):
And so don't be afraid. Tell your story. Scream it
from the mountaintops. You know, it's better to do it
that way instead of living fear.

Speaker 7 (01:04:15):
People might say stuff online, but like I said, that's
like the very odd select few I can tell you,
not a damn person face to face has made fun
of me for what has happened to me. And I
don't think anybody has the balls too, because they know
that's not right. So really, I don't think that's something
you have to worry about.

Speaker 1 (01:04:39):
Let's take another quick break and we'll come back to
finish the conversation.

Speaker 4 (01:04:52):
We wanted to take some audience questions. Are there any
audience questions? We have a few that have been brought in.

Speaker 6 (01:04:59):
Oh, have one, yes, So.

Speaker 12 (01:05:02):
This is more for Carolyn. I listened to the whole
podcast and CSPD is probably the second biggest betrayal. How
can they get away with it? And it's not just Joel,
it's the other people in the department, and they came
forward with it and they still I mean, how it

(01:05:23):
got to the point where he was able to retire
even now? How do you even get past that?

Speaker 11 (01:05:27):
I wish I had a solid answer for that, and
I looked over at Andrea when I when you were
asking that question. There's so much more to the story
that you would just fall out if you knew.

Speaker 5 (01:05:41):
I can tell you.

Speaker 11 (01:05:43):
One of the scariest things on the internal Affairs tapes
without broaching legal.

Speaker 5 (01:05:48):
Concern is that a very very high.

Speaker 11 (01:05:52):
Ranking female in the police department actually turned my ex
husband in for sexual harassment and nothing was done.

Speaker 5 (01:06:03):
It's sickening to hear. It's really really sad.

Speaker 12 (01:06:06):
We can move to any place we want in the country.
That's one place we would never move to.

Speaker 5 (01:06:11):
It is beautiful, though.

Speaker 13 (01:06:14):
Hi, I have a question for Stacy, how has your
definition of trust changed?

Speaker 6 (01:06:21):
I trust very few. I work on that a lot.
I know that I have a really filthy mouth. I
call myself a spicy Christian. I love Jesus, but a
cuss and it's the truth. It's something that I think
I have had to pray about because I don't trust people.
And it's really hard for me because I am such
a trust I was such a trusting person. But you know,

(01:06:43):
when people tell me things, most of the time, I'm like,
you're lying or you know. I always kind of think,
like what next, you know, I analyze kind of what
people say and stuff. It's hard. It's hard to ever
trust somebody again. I mean, you lay next to somebody
for seven years that you think you know, and you
roll over one day and they're completely someone that you

(01:07:05):
had no idea, you know. So it's hard. I think
someday there'll be somebody that'll come along, maybe, you know,
I pray for money instead of a husband. These days,
I really would just rather have money, so I'm going cruises.
But yeah, you know, it's a daily task to work on.

Speaker 1 (01:07:28):
HI.

Speaker 13 (01:07:28):
First of all, I want to say thank you for
coming out here and sharing your story. It's very, very courageous.
But I want us to ask the siblings, So, being
so young and naive to how evil people can be,
have you ever been guilt tripped for cutting your father
off or no longer speaking to your father?

Speaker 6 (01:07:48):
Has anybody ever said.

Speaker 5 (01:07:49):
Oh, give them a second chance to your father, et.

Speaker 8 (01:07:51):
Cetera, et cetera, only in the comments of Spotify.

Speaker 9 (01:07:59):
Yeah, I think I like what people don't realize is
like our dad was a funny human being and we
liked being around him. So when it first all happened,
like my brother and I were calling him up and
asking all these sorts of questions, and then it came
to the point where like he didn't come to my

(01:08:19):
high school graduation, and he didn't come to this and
that and this. So I was like, if he wasn't
going to come to the big events, he's not going
to come to the daily events.

Speaker 6 (01:08:28):
And so then it's like, why worth trying?

Speaker 9 (01:08:33):
HI?

Speaker 6 (01:08:34):
This is for Stacy.

Speaker 14 (01:08:35):
This is not really a question, it's more of a comment.
I just want to tell you that I think you
were a leacing mother. My mom did not believe me,
and when I watched the episode, I was screaming at
the TV because I was like.

Speaker 6 (01:08:51):
Yes, Mama, yes you go.

Speaker 14 (01:08:54):
So I just want to tell you, thank you, thank
you for.

Speaker 6 (01:08:57):
Being thank you for that, thank you for that. I
appreciate that. Yeah, I can't imagine not believing my children.
I mean, people gave me shit online like what took
her so long to leave? I was like, shit, it
happened on a Saturday. I filed for doors on Tuesday, like,

(01:09:20):
with no proof. No, the abuse had not even come out.
He had not even come forward yet, and I was
just like, that's some whack ass shit. That's not happening
in my house. We can file for divorce. It was
three days that I was just like I was willing
to give everything up. And it was never about the money.
It was never about the nice house we lived in.
I didn't give a crap if you worked at sheets. Yeah,

(01:09:42):
you know. It was three days before I was just like,
you know, I'm believing what I'm being shown, right, now
you know.

Speaker 4 (01:09:50):
Yeah, well, our time is over, and I wish we
could stay talking in front of this group because it
feels really, really wonderful to be here and to have
this out in the public.

Speaker 6 (01:10:03):
It feels really special.

Speaker 2 (01:10:04):
Yeah, thank you guys for coming.

Speaker 1 (01:10:06):
This show means so much to everyone here on stage
and it's been a joy.

Speaker 2 (01:10:10):
So thank you so much for coming.

Speaker 5 (01:10:12):
Thank you, Thank you guys.

Speaker 4 (01:10:17):
Yeah, I to good.

Speaker 2 (01:10:18):
Thank you for listening.

Speaker 1 (01:10:20):
A special thank you to the listeners who came with
us on the cruise.

Speaker 2 (01:10:24):
Meeting all of you is such a delight.

Speaker 1 (01:10:26):
Thank you to iHeart and Virgin Voyages, and as always,
thank you to our storytellers.

Speaker 2 (01:10:32):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly, this was.

Speaker 15 (01:10:36):
My best friend. This was somebody who was in my
house every single day. This is somebody who I told
all my secrets to. She did this because she wanted to.
She did this because.

Speaker 6 (01:10:48):
She likes to manipulate.

Speaker 15 (01:10:50):
She did this because she likes the control.

Speaker 1 (01:10:58):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
Ta or want to tell us your betrayal story, email
us at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com, or follow us on Instagram at
Betrayal Pod. You can also connect with me on Instagram
at It's Andrea Gunning. To access our newsletter, view additional content,

(01:11:20):
and connect with the Betrayal community. Join our substack at
Betrayal dot substack dot com.

Speaker 2 (01:11:25):
We're grateful for your support.

Speaker 1 (01:11:27):
One way to show support is by subscribing to our
show on Apple Podcasts and don't forget to rate and
review Betrayal five star reviews go a long way. A
big thank you to all of our listeners. Betrayal is
a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment
Group and partnership.

Speaker 2 (01:11:43):
With iHeart Podcasts.

Speaker 1 (01:11:45):
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fasin,
hosted and produced by Me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers
are Caitlin Golden, Olivia Hewes, and Kristin Melcury. Casting support
from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and

(01:12:06):
Jessica Krincheck.

Speaker 2 (01:12:08):
Audio editing and mixing by Matt del Vechio. Additional audio
editing by Tanner Robbins.

Speaker 1 (01:12:14):
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines Music Library provided by
mybe Music.

Speaker 2 (01:12:21):
And for more podcasts from iHeart

Speaker 1 (01:12:22):
Visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get
your podcasts.