November 14, 2024 • 50 mins
An online friend makes Sara question everything, including her ability to be a parent.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:01):
This whole experience really made me doubt my abilities as
a parent and my self as a person. Basically every
aspect of my identity that I had spent so long
trying to find it like, shook everything.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything. This is the story of an entire community,
one group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and
(00:49):
overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later,
but for the majority of this episode, we're going to
tell it through one person's perspective. We'll call our Sarah.
Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer
in Vermont. She exudes cool, She's covered in tattoos and rocks,
a shaved head.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And never have to have a bad hair toy. I
just don't ever have hair.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child
in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled
to make ends meet, and her father that old addiction.
Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about
organized religion, even the Christian undertones, and cartoons like veggietails
made her parents uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I remember a conversation where my parents were like going
back and forth and they were like, well, it's just vegetables.
It seems fine, even though there's the religious stuff. My
parents were pretty anti religion, but.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
When Sarah was around ten, her parents' religious beliefs began
to shift.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
My dad kind of got warmed up to it when
he was in Alcoholics Anonymous, and then less a year
later we were completely embroiled in a cult.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It started when her mom was recruited to join a
local church.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
They were really nice to us, They were really supportive
of my mom. She made friends, and she struggles a
lot to make friends, and so she felt very at
home there. And my dad kind of hit it off
with a couple of the other dads and it seemed
like a really good community. Before we knew it, we
(02:31):
were involved in Quiverful.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and
raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy
in their new church, and they became more involved in
Sarah's life than ever.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I just turned at eleven at this time, so this
was an improvement. It seemed like when people said, like,
this is the right path, it seemed believable to me.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
This church became her new normal.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Services were a little bit intense, as like crying and
speaking in tongues and stuff like that, but I was like, okay, well,
sometimes they had a pot luck.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
After four and eleven year old, the potluck desserts like
jello were enticing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Then I started kind of moving beyond the jello and
we all got baptized, and then there was like purity stuff,
a lot of purity stuff. So I pledged my virginity
to the church and my dad, and it was almost
like a wedding. These pretty white dresses and go up
(03:37):
to an altar, and it literally looks like a mass wedding,
but it's like little girls all marrying their dad. But
I was like eleven, so I was like, oh my god,
I get to dress fancy and have a little present
and more jello. So yeay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The standards around purity were very high.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It was normal for people in our community to save
their first kiss for marriage.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Sarah's naturally curious, and that was tough to navigate in
this community.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Between me not having been raised in this environment and
having like a rebellious spirit is what I always got told,
just mostly just because I asked a lot of questions.
It really put a bad light on our family.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Eventually she fell in line.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It's definitely been like kind of hammered in there to
trust authority completely, like there's a reason they're in this position.
I was totally like I believed it fully.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed
a bad kid by church standards.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
She got kind of stuck with the bad kids. Everyone
said that they were always pulling shenanigans and they were
too loud, which they were just normal kids looking back,
or just like nine year olds.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Some families in their church had as many as twenty children.
For the church, big families served a higher purpose.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You are basically trying to birth an army for the
end times, which you're told could come at any time.
So it already feels too late because it takes, like,
you know, a couple of years for kids to be
able to grow up. So they're like, you got to
have babies now.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Even though they already had six kids. Sarah's mom felt
pressure to grow their family, but she was struggling to
have more.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
She was getting lamed for her issues with not being
able to have like a ton of kids. It seemed
like her fault for having a rebellious and like worldly family.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The church believed that God blessed you with as many
kids as you could handle, so if a family was
struggling to have more children, it was because their existing
kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God,
Sarah's mom tried to contry her kids, and she did
it by following the church.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Teaching you start corporal punishment at birth. If they bite
you while they're nursing, you pull their hair. If they
don't have hair, you use the switch.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Sarah was only twelve when her mom asked her to
use a switch on her newborn sister.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm also a kid, and no matter how much I'm
doctrination there was I just could not bring myself to
do that. It felt like some Stanford prison experiment kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
This was a defining moment for Sarah.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
At that point, I started questioning, is it because I'm
not faithful enough, is it because I shouldn't be a mother?
Or is this just wrong? And that was the first
time I had considered it might be wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented. I
had the strictly enforced gender roles.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
One of the weird things about quiver Fill is like
boys will be boys until they're forty five, but girls
are future mothers in training from day one.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
When Sarah was fourteen, she started going to public school.
This was actually a form of punishment, but there she
met a new friend who opened her eyes to another
way of living, and her friend's mom was worried about
Sarah's home life.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
They were so concerned and rightfully so she basically told
me to come and live with them, and she would
lie to my mom about where I was if she asked,
My home was not that invested. To be honest, you
didn't really come looking.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Soon Sarah stopped coming home altogether, and so I ended
up moving in with this family, and they really did
everything in their power to help me out.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So I do refer to her as my foster mom,
even though I was never officially in the foster care system.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
She wanted me to have like good role models and
got me involved in the community in a Jewish community.
She was never pushy about anything, and there were really
good role models. Jewish people don't proselytize, which I found
very strange. I was like, are they trying to convert me?
And she's like, they don't want you to convert, that's
(08:32):
not a thing. They just want to give you some food.
And I was like, oh cool.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith.
They nurtured her natural curiosity.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That was what was most appealing to me. I had
a million questions and they were excited to answer the
questions with more questions. There was never like a shut up,
don't ask that. It was like, so, this is three
different opinions that most people have. My opinion, what do
you think?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd
fallen behind in school.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
My parents had taken me out of school in fourth grade,
and so from fourth grade to the end of sophomore year,
I had no education.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
On her eighteenth birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she
decided to leave her foster family's home too.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I didn't want to burden this family, so I left
them as well. I hadn't been taught how to like
live with normal people. It was just like time for
me to go. But they were instrumental in my running
away from the cult. And so I left and I
(09:44):
went to the nearest city and I was homeless for
a year. At first I was on the street, and
then I was in a shelter For the first few months.
It was really rough. And then I got a job
at tattoo Studio and I became a body fiercer there
(10:05):
through an apprenticeship. It was like my passion. It was
so much fun.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She
still wanted faith in her life. Somehow, being exposed to
Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It gave me a sense of community and a sense
of stability that I think I was missing. And like,
this very kind group of people who want to support
you and you don't owe them anything for that. That's
really nice for me. It's comforting, like I don't like
go to bed wondering if I'm going to wake up
still part of my only community.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul.
She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
He had like mostly pictures of frogs, but they were
like from Google with like the wild work. I was like,
that's really strange, and so I was curious and started
talking to him, and he was like hilarious.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
For their first date, he brought her a surprise.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
He brought me a Stuart Little two poster as a gift.
I was like, what a weird guy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
They dated casually for about six months, going on dates
when they both had time and money to spare.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That was until the day of COVID lockdown in twenty twenty.
I found out I was pregnant.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew
she would keep the baby.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I have terrible PCs, so I did not think I
was able to get pregnant, which is part of why
I wanted to keep the pregnancy so bad.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul.
After she took a few minutes to process the news,
she called him.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Both of us were just kind of crying and just
like trying to figure out what to say to the
other person. And so I told him like, I want
to be a mom, like really bad. And I was like,
you don't have to have anything to do with this,
But he really wanted to be like a present and
good dad.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level,
she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking
care of young children her whole life.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I felt very comfortable with my ability to keep babies alive.
It's like, I've done this a million times. I know
exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy
or nurturing, and she knew one thing for certain, she
wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised.
She would have to find another way. She would need resources.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Being an emotionally present and caring parent who's breezing a person.
I was like, oh my god, I have no idea
what I'm doing, Like I need help now.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance
to mold a new life and a safe, supportive family.
It started with her and Paul.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I had like dated a couple people before, but I
had not had a partner.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
She would learn the meaning of true partnership during pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I did have a super high risk pregnancy, and I
had to be on bed rest from like week twelve.
It was awful. It was terrible. I had to quit
my job. He had to support me and take care
of me, like physically put me in the shower and
help me shower, and like he was amazing. He bought
(13:57):
me a kindle, loaded it up with like every book,
and he would like put my socks on me so
my feet didn't get cold, so I didn't have to
like kick the blanket around to try to get back
over me. And he would do his work in the
bedroom whenever possible, so that I just had like a
person nearby. He just took amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Care of me, and she learned by his example.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
So has that really turned things for me? I was like, okay,
a successful relationship between friends, between partners, between parents and
children is like a huge mutual effort to make the
other person feel cared for.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
She reached out to her friends who had young kids,
and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles
she admired.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
They had both suggested that I join some gentle parenting
groups on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a
lot of time on her hands. She brows group after
group until she found one that really resonated and it
was a huge community.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I think at the height, there was like a couple
hundred thousand, and everybody in there, it seemed, was like
focused on the same goal that I was, where like
raising a functional, confident, compassionate person. And I was like, Okay,
this seems like a really good place for me to be.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
She started spending hours every day in the group, reading
every post and asking questions of her own.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was trying to absorb every single molecule of gentle
kind parenting advice that I could fit in my brain.
In the course of nine months.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed
a pattern.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Almost everyone in the group was trying to break some
kind of cycle of like abuse or neglect, and a
lot of people were like, my childhood was hellish, and
I'm never letting that happen. So it just seemed like
a really supportive community for people who were trying to
do better for their kids.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group.
It was personal. She was a strange from her family,
so this group became a real community, supporting her through
pregnancy and celebrating with her.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
With groups based around cycle breaking, some people don't have
a family to celebrate with them and so we would
be that family. A person you don't even know would
be like, oh my gosh, after four years of trying,
we're finally pregnant and we got our first soldier sound
and it's twins, and we would all be like, oh
my god. Genuinely, I was so excited for these people.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved
every post and enforce the community guidelines.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
So the admins in the group, they were like moderating,
approving posts, but they were also kind of like leaders
in the group, because you know, people come there with
crisis level stuff, so if you're really struggling with something,
they're the first people to see the post because they
approve it and they really go out of their way
(17:21):
to make sure that people are safe.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins,
so we'll call Becky.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
She had posted a lot about being a Jewish parent.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Becky was a huge presence in the group.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
She was like an admin and a super frequent poster.
People were very invested in her life. People knew her
kid by first name and like people had her birth
announcements on their fridge.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Becky was a successful attorney would overcome a great deal
of adversity.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
She had just a really difficult upbringing and the odds
were completely stacked against her. She was a teen mom.
She had her first baby so young. She had also
suffered child loss, which was unimaginable to me. Just like
(18:16):
thinking about, you know how much I loved my son
before I had even met him. I think that's every
parent's worst fear.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource
and a guiding light for other parents in the group
who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grate while
raising six other kids, but the tragedy didn't end there.
Her oldest child had recently been the victim of an
anti gay hate crime.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The sympathy and like hurt that I felt for her
knowing that her kid had been through this awful.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Becky posted all the details of the hate in the group.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
There were hundreds of comments being like, we love you, Becky.
People were just so genuinely caring for her. She was
receiving gifts, some of them monetary. She was getting constant
(19:22):
affection and attention from everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her
career and putting her all into raising her six children.
She was a super mom.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like she's amazing, you know. She had her kid in
these cultural emergence schools, and she was taking these incredible trips,
like they went to Scotland, and like she had these beautiful, enriching,
individualized lives that she had built for these kids. And
I was like, Wow, I need to get my acts
together if I want to be able to a parent
(20:00):
like this. And so I think I kind of idolized
her a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
In all the videos, she was alone. There were no kids, sounds,
or never her husband. It was just her. I assumed
that it was like her five minutes alone. She wanted
to connect with other parents.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other
in the group.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
It was a lot. It seemed like it was in
good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process
of converting to Judaism. She looked at Becky as a
resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith.
But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was like, why are we not friends? And she
didn't even want to acknowledge it, which was very odd
to me.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were
interested in the same things.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I'm passionate about heritage language, like that's my thing, and
she's a Jewish person who's passionate about heritage language. And
she would not speak to me about it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language
learning skills.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
She was speaking Ladino, which is like Judaeo Spanish. It's
sort of adjacent to Yiddish, which is one of my languages.
And it really drove home to me and a lot
of other people how smart she was.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not
that common, so she really wanted to bond over that
shared experience.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I wanted to ask questions about that, and I was like,
really looking for that advice from her, and unfortunately she
just would not.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky.
They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood,
Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some
of the same things.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I jokingly sometimes referred to myself as a rescue. It's like,
you know, I was literally living on the street and
then living in a studio when I met my husband,
and I had probably like twenty bucks, So I was like,
that happens. That's crazy. We both had our like Cinderella moment,
and she just like did not the kinship thing wasn't neutral,
(22:40):
and I was like, okay, I'm being weird.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to
offend Becky, and I was.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Like, oh, did I like say something? So I was
really concerned.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
That I had really hurt her, So she tried to
connect with other people in the group.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I started seeking out other Jewish parents in that group,
and everyone was like, you got to talk to Becky,
and I was like, oh, okay, I'll try.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Every time I asked her a question, I would get
an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that
I had ever heard before. But I guess she would know,
and so I started to sort of get back to
that place where I was like, am I qualified for this?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before.
She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to
doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I don't know anything. I was like, maybe I am
further behind with conversion than I thought it was.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
In the Winner of twenty twenty, Sarah's son was born.
She had unexpected complications and the birth didn't go as planned.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Be very traumatic birth. It was really really bad. He
was almost completely fine, but I needed a lot of help.
At the very end of the birth, while my son
was being put in my arms, I had a psychotic
break and I ended up going into postpartum psychosis, and
(24:23):
I had no idea what that was about.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Two percent of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth.
It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well
being and concerns that something is wrong, but it spirals
into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be
really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I was hallucinating very vividly but I had no idea
that I was hallucinating, and so I was experiencing really
intense paranoia. You know, a lot of people have intrusive thoughts, scary,
violent ones, and once those thoughts start sounding like a
(25:06):
good idea, you need to talk to someone. I was
having those thoughts stored myself because I thought that if
I didn't get myself out of the picture, something would
happen to my baby.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
She was scared and she didn't know what was going on,
so she reached out to a doctor.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
When I sought advice from medical professionals, I was actually
told it was normal, but I didn't know how to
effectively communicate how serious it was, and so I was
at home in full psychosis with a new.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I had like a full breakdown episode, and I was
admitted to a hospital. I stayed there for a little
over a week. I think time really wasn't I'm not
really sure about that. It was really hard to be
away from my baby, you know, but I did feel
(26:12):
that he was safer and I fell safer as well.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
After she left the hospital, she was stable, but the
experience was traumatic, so there was still some fear there.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I was really afraid to hold my son or be
alone with him for a long time. I loved him,
but I didn't trust myself to be a good parent.
I didn't even trust myself to be like a babysitter.
I just was so afraid that I would do something
terribly wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And as soon as I got out, I went to
the group because it's like, I don't know who else
that I could possibly ask about this, And I started asking, like,
has anyone had this happened before? And the person who
kept popping up was Becky and she had postpartum depression before,
(27:14):
and anxiety and OCD. She knew what she was talking about.
She had been through like a similar situation, not psychosist
to my knowledge, but really really rough mental health stuff
following the birth of a baby. And I was so
grateful to have that resource.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
This was some of Becky's advice.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Just like go to therapy, just drink water, just wait.
And I'm like, oh, okay, she would know, not me.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Sarah didn't just need advice, she needed someone who'd been
through this and made it out on the other side.
To tell her that she was going to be okay,
that it wasn't her fault, and that she wasn't a
bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
She was definitely implying that I wasn't cut out for this.
You know, this just isn't for some people. Maybe it's
not for you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear
at the time. She was isolated by COVID and her
postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I mean, just validation would have gone a long way,
but she really went out of her way to make
it seem like anyone who was struggling was just so
beneath her and that she was just like super mom.
And so I was really questioning everything, and not in
a good way.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life.
She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded,
Sarah focused on the positives she did have.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
At this point, we are about two months away from
being officially Jewish. I am going to the mikvah and
I'm so excited. It's like a huge deal.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Mikvah is a spiritual ceremony and it could be used
to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's
first mikvah was like a baptism.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I got dumped and it was amazing. It was so great,
and I passed my little exam and I got my
certificate for me and for my son as the best.
You know, I can't even describe like how like symbolic
and amazing. It fell after my weird, quiver full baptism
(29:44):
experience to go to a mikva of my own volition.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started
teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as
a Jewish parent.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It took me like two or three years to be
what I would consider back to myself. But my light
at the end of the tunnel is that I'm the
Jewish parent in my son's life, and I have to
stick around and I have to keep him in touch
with his culture.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned a parent in a
way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was
instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older,
Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child
in an inner faith marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
My husband is not religious at all, but we technically
are an interfaith family because he's not Jewish and I am.
And it's really hard to find supportive interfaith parenting spaces.
And Becky was a Jewish parent and an interfaith family,
(30:53):
and so I was like, hey, I really needed to help.
And she was receptive and gave a lot of that
was maybe more critical than I was expecting. Every time
I asked her a question, I would get an answer,
but it didn't line up with anything that I had
ever heard before. But I guess she would know, and
(31:14):
so I started to sort of get back to that
place where I was like, am I qualified for this.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
At the time, Becky had made a post about how
she keeps a kosher kitchen.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
She was very much positioning herself as an authority, and
she made this big deal out of keeping kosher.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself,
so in the comment section, she asked a follow up
question about setting up a kosher kitchen.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I just had a question about separate sides of the
kitchen because I haven't done it.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
It was weird. My comment got deleted very quickly when
I asked the question, and so I don't even think
I saw what her reply was.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So finally she turned to her rabbi.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I contacted him in tears, just like crisis mode, like
I don't think I'm supposed to be doing this. I
can't be a parent like this, like you made a
mistake by letting me be Jewish, Like I don't know
what's going on. And he was the first person to ask,
(32:30):
who is this person? Do you see them a lot?
Can you stop seeing them? I was like, they're just
a person on Facebook, and he's like, why are you
listening to them? Like what what is their role? What
is their authority here? And I was like, dude, I
(32:50):
don't know. Actually I don't call my rabbi dude, but
you know, I was like, yeah, that's a good question.
I had been interacting with her for almost three years,
and I never realized how badly it had been affecting
me until he said that.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Pretty soon Sarah would get an answer to that question,
one she wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
So I was at home and then I got added
to this group chat that had like two hundred messages,
and it's called therapy sash and it had the name
of the parenting group. I was like late to be added,
and I was like, what is happening? And then one
(33:40):
of my friends from the group was like, I'll catch
you up. Thank god, you know, thank you so much,
and she tells me we just found out Becky the
admin and the parenting group. I was like, oh, I
know her. Go on. She was like, she is not real.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in
Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who
she said she was.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
She was like, she is a catfish. She's been stealing
people's pictures of their children, pretending that they're her kids
and giving them these crazy backstories. Immediately, my brain went
to the child that had a hate crime committed against them.
What possesses the person to see a picture of a
(34:55):
child they don't know and invent a hate crime against them.
This cannot be.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page
and Becky was gone.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And then I saw the announcement from one of the admins,
just like, how heart broken and shaken she was.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Two hundred of the most active group members were all
in a text called therapy session, comparing their notes, trying
to understand what was happening.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
How could she not be real? I had seen her
talking to her husband, like I'd seen videos of her,
and things just kept coming out over and over like
all day, and for that whole day, I just completely
abandoned my work and just stayed in the group chat.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self with
her real name, but nearly everything else about her was
a lie. She didn't have six kids, she didn't have any,
She had never been a parent at all.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
We found out that none of her children are real.
Her children were pictures of someone else's children that she
had been taking from an account that she was following.
Her son that was talking to children of other people
(36:26):
in the group on kids Messenger was her and she
had given him this really traumatic backstory, but he wasn't
real at all. And then she had her husband that
was her as well.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account
where she posed as her husband and filled out his
profile using stolen pictures from the Internet.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
She had taken pictures from I believe an actor from Thailand.
Her entire family was her.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Some people were friends with Becky in real life, and
they were blindsided too.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
People had met her in person while she was pregnant,
but she wasn't pregnant, and it was like she fooled
these moms of multiple kids. Nobody could have seen this coming.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Becky lied about the death of her two year old
daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had
actually lost kids of their own.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The thing that like sticks with me was the amount
of other parents in the group who had lost their
children like toddlers and even older or younger, who were
consoling her and sharing their similar struggles like what, who?
(38:00):
Who could do this?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It was the extent of her lies that kept people
from questioning her.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
If you say something like did you even have the
death of a child and you're wrong, you are the
worst for doubting this person, and no one who's an
actual normal person would want to do that. Then there's
also the practical side of it, where she can just
(38:28):
delete your comment, she can just kick you out of
the group. She was an admin, so she could get
rid of you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group,
were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud, and they needed answers.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
When she was confronted by the admins that she was
close with, she said that she can't stop. I don't
understand why, but I do believe that she can't stop.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together
to find out more about the real Becky.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
When we started finding out more about her and we
spoke to someone in her life who knew more about
her as a real person on her background, they revealed
to us that she had been doing this since high school,
making up people and making up herself.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was
actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected
vulnerable people.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I think that's the only thing she has ever told
the truth about other than her cat's name.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions
to the bar association in her home state, but as
far as the group knows, nothing has ever come with
that report.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
It seems like it was a joke to a lot
of people, because I think that there is this attitude
where if something happens online, mainly online, it's not real.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It was very real to a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found
out she.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Wasn't Jewish at all.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky,
told that she didn't know what she was talking about
when it came to her faith. And worst of all,
when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky
was there saying she'd been through something similar and telling
Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
For me, it was transparently life or death at one
point with stories like this, if I hear them from
other people, you know, like on like that Catah show,
I'm like, at what point would this person call it?
At what point would this person be like okay? And
(40:56):
for her, it was not a new mom considering ending things,
So I don't know what it could vastly be, because anyone
in their right mind would have stopped. She knew what
I was going through, everyone did, and she just did
that regardless.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's
trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's
worst fears.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
That insecurity was there and it's not like her doing that,
It was there. A lot of it was just that
I felt that way, but she really honed in on it.
She could have really sense that stuff. And it's taken
until like a couple of days ago to realize how
(41:50):
awful and how deep it went and how much it
affected me. This whole experience just really made me doubt
my abilities as a parent and my self as a person,
and just like basically every aspect of my identity that
I had spent so long trying to find it like
(42:15):
shook everything.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
But then she started seeing it all differently.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
I saw that she had lied about something that made
me feel like an impostor, and she was the impostor
the whole time. I had actually done it, Like I
had overcome a lot of the same things that she
had lied about.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
She's not just talking about parenting, She's talking about persevering
after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity and a
new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
It went from me being angry about that and feeling
like I had like myself down to me feeling like
I am really proud of myself. I did this thing
that is so hard that she had to lie about it.
I did it for real.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
One question Sarah still has is that, out of all
the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I really can't understand her reason for finding a group
that was parents trying to break cycles of abuse and
take advantage of them and make them doubt themselves, people
who are in this incredibly vulnerable spot of trying to
(43:45):
be better for their children and trying to be better
for themselves. If I were evil, I would leave that
one alone, you know. I just that seems like a line.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Becky's deception changed the group, but for Sarah, it brought
her closer to the other real parents out there who
really wanted to connect and support each other.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
A lot of people did actually just disappear, just quit Facebook,
quit online stuff. I'd not blame them at all. But
the thing that I found so kind of heartwarming, like
it almost feels like a Hallmark movie, is this pack
of moms that in hindsight saw somebody messing with other
(44:30):
moms and their kids and were like, absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
And we were there for each other, and we've gotten
really close. A lot of us have the way that
we were able to show up for each other. That
kind of undid a lot of the distrust that was
immediately planted by this, like that.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Was the initial function of the group.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom,
who wrote into our email Betrayal pod at gmail dot com.
On betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't
see the deception right in front of them, but in
this case, it was a group of thousands of people,
a whole community. So we asked members to send in
(45:17):
voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what
they said. I got to know her family.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
She presented herself as this perfect parent.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
She posted prolifically.
Speaker 6 (45:33):
And also judging other people's parenting like she was just
this kind of professional.
Speaker 7 (45:39):
She would center herself in these conversations as almost an
authority figure.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
She always made it seem like it was this effortless,
seamless thing, and she just has it all together.
Speaker 6 (45:51):
I saw my spouse self conscious. It's really aggravating that
anybody is comparing themselves to somebody who is, like measurably impossible.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
I truly felt like I wasn't good enough, I was
not a good enough parent.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
When the community found out that Becky was a fraud,
that deception felt personal.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Becky was talking to children pretending to be children.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Her father's not dead. He's living still and is a physician.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
I've seen several friends of mine severely impacted by this
and how they just can't trust anybody.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
So many of us are really trying our best and
our great parents. We just aret out the perfect parent
because the perfect parent does not exist.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright
side or the silver lining, but she did learn something
from all of this. Here's Sarah again.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
This was one of the situations in my life that
pushed me to begin questioning who put you in charge?
That's this simple question, but it has been incredibly difficult
for me to ask because I was taught under no
circumstances should you ever ask that? And now I do.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Today Sarah has big news.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, I'm almost eight months pregnant. We are having a little.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Girl, and this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I don't feel the sense of dread that I thought
I would because I've put a lot of effort into
building a super strong community online and in real life with
people that I know and people that I trust. I'm
really excited to start out with the confidence in my
(47:52):
role as the Jewish mom. I'm feeling really confident and
excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in my
son's abilities to be a big brother. I mean, there
are challenges always, and I have no idea what they're
going to be yet, but I think that we can
(48:13):
handle it.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,
why did you want to tell your story?
Speaker 1 (48:20):
The reason that I want to talk about it is
because I do think that she can't stop. I do
think that she's doing it again, and I think that
there are people other people in the world who do
stuff like this, of course, and so I want to
be there for another person to just say, like, you're
not crazy.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
On the next episode of Betrayal, Kee.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
You eventually told me the whole story, and I said,
why Met?
Speaker 8 (48:55):
He said, as my uncle would say, why not you.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email
us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One
way to.
Speaker 7 (49:17):
Show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple
Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal five
star reviews, Go a long way, a big thank you
to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of
Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership
with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy
Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
(49:41):
written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriinchech. Audio editing and
mixing by Matt Delvecchio, Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
This whole experience really made me doubt my abilities as
a parent and my self as a person. Basically every
aspect of my identity that I had spent so long
trying to find it like, shook everything.
Speaker 2 (00:28):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything. This is the story of an entire community,
one group of parents who experienced a shocking deception and
(00:49):
overcame it together. We'll hear more from the larger community later,
but for the majority of this episode, we're going to
tell it through one person's perspective. We'll call our Sarah.
Sarah is living her best life as an organic farmer
in Vermont. She exudes cool, She's covered in tattoos and rocks,
a shaved head.
Speaker 1 (01:10):
And never have to have a bad hair toy. I
just don't ever have hair.
Speaker 2 (01:15):
She grew up in the Northeast as the oldest child
in her family. When she was little, her parents struggled
to make ends meet, and her father that old addiction.
Sarah remembers a time when her parents were skeptical about
organized religion, even the Christian undertones, and cartoons like veggietails
made her parents uncomfortable.
Speaker 1 (01:35):
I remember a conversation where my parents were like going
back and forth and they were like, well, it's just vegetables.
It seems fine, even though there's the religious stuff. My
parents were pretty anti religion, but.
Speaker 2 (01:49):
When Sarah was around ten, her parents' religious beliefs began
to shift.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
My dad kind of got warmed up to it when
he was in Alcoholics Anonymous, and then less a year
later we were completely embroiled in a cult.
Speaker 2 (02:06):
It started when her mom was recruited to join a
local church.
Speaker 1 (02:10):
They were really nice to us, They were really supportive
of my mom. She made friends, and she struggles a
lot to make friends, and so she felt very at
home there. And my dad kind of hit it off
with a couple of the other dads and it seemed
like a really good community. Before we knew it, we
(02:31):
were involved in Quiverful.
Speaker 2 (02:33):
Quiverful is a fundamentalist Christian movement focused on having and
raising as many children as possible. Her parents seemed happy
in their new church, and they became more involved in
Sarah's life than ever.
Speaker 1 (02:45):
I just turned at eleven at this time, so this
was an improvement. It seemed like when people said, like,
this is the right path, it seemed believable to me.
Speaker 2 (02:56):
This church became her new normal.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Services were a little bit intense, as like crying and
speaking in tongues and stuff like that, but I was like, okay, well,
sometimes they had a pot luck.
Speaker 2 (03:10):
After four and eleven year old, the potluck desserts like
jello were enticing.
Speaker 1 (03:16):
Then I started kind of moving beyond the jello and
we all got baptized, and then there was like purity stuff,
a lot of purity stuff. So I pledged my virginity
to the church and my dad, and it was almost
like a wedding. These pretty white dresses and go up
(03:37):
to an altar, and it literally looks like a mass wedding,
but it's like little girls all marrying their dad. But
I was like eleven, so I was like, oh my god,
I get to dress fancy and have a little present
and more jello. So yeay.
Speaker 2 (03:53):
The standards around purity were very high.
Speaker 1 (03:57):
It was normal for people in our community to save
their first kiss for marriage.
Speaker 2 (04:03):
Sarah's naturally curious, and that was tough to navigate in
this community.
Speaker 1 (04:09):
Between me not having been raised in this environment and
having like a rebellious spirit is what I always got told,
just mostly just because I asked a lot of questions.
It really put a bad light on our family.
Speaker 2 (04:23):
Eventually she fell in line.
Speaker 1 (04:26):
It's definitely been like kind of hammered in there to
trust authority completely, like there's a reason they're in this position.
I was totally like I believed it fully.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
Her little sister, who was nine, struggled and was deemed
a bad kid by church standards.
Speaker 1 (04:48):
She got kind of stuck with the bad kids. Everyone
said that they were always pulling shenanigans and they were
too loud, which they were just normal kids looking back,
or just like nine year olds.
Speaker 2 (05:01):
Some families in their church had as many as twenty children.
For the church, big families served a higher purpose.
Speaker 1 (05:09):
You are basically trying to birth an army for the
end times, which you're told could come at any time.
So it already feels too late because it takes, like,
you know, a couple of years for kids to be
able to grow up. So they're like, you got to
have babies now.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Even though they already had six kids. Sarah's mom felt
pressure to grow their family, but she was struggling to
have more.
Speaker 1 (05:33):
She was getting lamed for her issues with not being
able to have like a ton of kids. It seemed
like her fault for having a rebellious and like worldly family.
Speaker 2 (05:46):
The church believed that God blessed you with as many
kids as you could handle, so if a family was
struggling to have more children, it was because their existing
kids were disobedient. In order to get closer to God,
Sarah's mom tried to contry her kids, and she did
it by following the church.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Teaching you start corporal punishment at birth. If they bite
you while they're nursing, you pull their hair. If they
don't have hair, you use the switch.
Speaker 2 (06:14):
Sarah was only twelve when her mom asked her to
use a switch on her newborn sister.
Speaker 1 (06:21):
I'm also a kid, and no matter how much I'm
doctrination there was I just could not bring myself to
do that. It felt like some Stanford prison experiment kind
of thing.
Speaker 2 (06:36):
This was a defining moment for Sarah.
Speaker 1 (06:39):
At that point, I started questioning, is it because I'm
not faithful enough, is it because I shouldn't be a mother?
Or is this just wrong? And that was the first
time I had considered it might be wrong.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
She started questioning the church, specifically how they parented. I
had the strictly enforced gender roles.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
One of the weird things about quiver Fill is like
boys will be boys until they're forty five, but girls
are future mothers in training from day one.
Speaker 2 (07:19):
When Sarah was fourteen, she started going to public school.
This was actually a form of punishment, but there she
met a new friend who opened her eyes to another
way of living, and her friend's mom was worried about
Sarah's home life.
Speaker 1 (07:33):
They were so concerned and rightfully so she basically told
me to come and live with them, and she would
lie to my mom about where I was if she asked,
My home was not that invested. To be honest, you
didn't really come looking.
Speaker 3 (07:48):
Soon Sarah stopped coming home altogether, and so I ended
up moving in with this family, and they really did
everything in their power to help me out.
Speaker 1 (08:00):
So I do refer to her as my foster mom,
even though I was never officially in the foster care system.
Speaker 2 (08:06):
She adored her new foster family, especially her foster mom.
Speaker 1 (08:10):
She wanted me to have like good role models and
got me involved in the community in a Jewish community.
She was never pushy about anything, and there were really
good role models. Jewish people don't proselytize, which I found
very strange. I was like, are they trying to convert me?
And she's like, they don't want you to convert, that's
(08:32):
not a thing. They just want to give you some food.
And I was like, oh cool.
Speaker 2 (08:38):
Through her foster family, she was welcomed into the Jewish faith.
They nurtured her natural curiosity.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
That was what was most appealing to me. I had
a million questions and they were excited to answer the
questions with more questions. There was never like a shut up,
don't ask that. It was like, so, this is three
different opinions that most people have. My opinion, what do
you think?
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Sarah was smart and inquisitive about the world, but she'd
fallen behind in school.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
My parents had taken me out of school in fourth grade,
and so from fourth grade to the end of sophomore year,
I had no education.
Speaker 2 (09:16):
On her eighteenth birthday, Sarah dropped out. After that, she
decided to leave her foster family's home too.
Speaker 1 (09:24):
I didn't want to burden this family, so I left
them as well. I hadn't been taught how to like
live with normal people. It was just like time for
me to go. But they were instrumental in my running
away from the cult. And so I left and I
(09:44):
went to the nearest city and I was homeless for
a year. At first I was on the street, and
then I was in a shelter For the first few months.
It was really rough. And then I got a job
at tattoo Studio and I became a body fiercer there
(10:05):
through an apprenticeship. It was like my passion. It was
so much fun.
Speaker 2 (10:10):
She didn't leave everything from her old life behind. She
still wanted faith in her life. Somehow, being exposed to
Judaism in her foster family inspired Sarah to officially convert.
Speaker 1 (10:22):
It gave me a sense of community and a sense
of stability that I think I was missing. And like,
this very kind group of people who want to support
you and you don't owe them anything for that. That's
really nice for me. It's comforting, like I don't like
go to bed wondering if I'm going to wake up
still part of my only community.
Speaker 2 (10:45):
She also decided to start dating. That's when she met Paul.
She was swiping on Tinder and his profile made her laugh.
Speaker 1 (10:53):
He had like mostly pictures of frogs, but they were
like from Google with like the wild work. I was like,
that's really strange, and so I was curious and started
talking to him, and he was like hilarious.
Speaker 2 (11:06):
For their first date, he brought her a surprise.
Speaker 1 (11:10):
He brought me a Stuart Little two poster as a gift.
I was like, what a weird guy.
Speaker 2 (11:17):
They dated casually for about six months, going on dates
when they both had time and money to spare.
Speaker 1 (11:24):
That was until the day of COVID lockdown in twenty twenty.
I found out I was pregnant.
Speaker 2 (11:31):
As soon as she saw the pregnancy test, she knew
she would keep the baby.
Speaker 1 (11:35):
I have terrible PCs, so I did not think I
was able to get pregnant, which is part of why
I wanted to keep the pregnancy so bad.
Speaker 2 (11:44):
She was prepared to go it alone with or without Paul.
After she took a few minutes to process the news,
she called him.
Speaker 1 (11:52):
Both of us were just kind of crying and just
like trying to figure out what to say to the
other person. And so I told him like, I want
to be a mom, like really bad. And I was like,
you don't have to have anything to do with this,
But he really wanted to be like a present and
good dad.
Speaker 2 (12:14):
After that day, Sarah moved in with him. On some level,
she felt prepared for parenthood. After all, she'd been taking
care of young children her whole life.
Speaker 1 (12:25):
I felt very comfortable with my ability to keep babies alive.
It's like, I've done this a million times. I know
exactly what I'm doing.
Speaker 2 (12:34):
But the environment she'd grown up in wasn't emotionally healthy
or nurturing, and she knew one thing for certain, she
wasn't going to raise her baby the way she was raised.
She would have to find another way. She would need resources.
Speaker 1 (12:48):
Being an emotionally present and caring parent who's breezing a person.
I was like, oh my god, I have no idea
what I'm doing, Like I need help now.
Speaker 2 (13:16):
Sarah's pregnancy was a fresh start for her, a chance
to mold a new life and a safe, supportive family.
It started with her and Paul.
Speaker 1 (13:25):
I had like dated a couple people before, but I
had not had a partner.
Speaker 2 (13:32):
She would learn the meaning of true partnership during pregnancy.
Speaker 1 (13:36):
I did have a super high risk pregnancy, and I
had to be on bed rest from like week twelve.
It was awful. It was terrible. I had to quit
my job. He had to support me and take care
of me, like physically put me in the shower and
help me shower, and like he was amazing. He bought
(13:57):
me a kindle, loaded it up with like every book,
and he would like put my socks on me so
my feet didn't get cold, so I didn't have to
like kick the blanket around to try to get back
over me. And he would do his work in the
bedroom whenever possible, so that I just had like a
person nearby. He just took amazing.
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Care of me, and she learned by his example.
Speaker 1 (14:24):
So has that really turned things for me? I was like, okay,
a successful relationship between friends, between partners, between parents and
children is like a huge mutual effort to make the
other person feel cared for.
Speaker 2 (14:43):
She reached out to her friends who had young kids,
and she started by calling two friends whose parenting styles
she admired.
Speaker 1 (14:51):
They had both suggested that I join some gentle parenting
groups on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (14:57):
Being bedridden for her entire pregnancy meant she had a
lot of time on her hands. She brows group after
group until she found one that really resonated and it
was a huge community.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I think at the height, there was like a couple
hundred thousand, and everybody in there, it seemed, was like
focused on the same goal that I was, where like
raising a functional, confident, compassionate person. And I was like, Okay,
this seems like a really good place for me to be.
Speaker 2 (15:28):
She started spending hours every day in the group, reading
every post and asking questions of her own.
Speaker 1 (15:35):
I was trying to absorb every single molecule of gentle
kind parenting advice that I could fit in my brain.
In the course of nine months.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
Sarah made real friends through the group, and she noticed
a pattern.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Almost everyone in the group was trying to break some
kind of cycle of like abuse or neglect, and a
lot of people were like, my childhood was hellish, and
I'm never letting that happen. So it just seemed like
a really supportive community for people who were trying to
do better for their kids.
Speaker 2 (16:15):
For Sarah, this was more than just a Facebook group.
It was personal. She was a strange from her family,
so this group became a real community, supporting her through
pregnancy and celebrating with her.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
With groups based around cycle breaking, some people don't have
a family to celebrate with them and so we would
be that family. A person you don't even know would
be like, oh my gosh, after four years of trying,
we're finally pregnant and we got our first soldier sound
and it's twins, and we would all be like, oh
my god. Genuinely, I was so excited for these people.
Speaker 2 (16:51):
There was a hierarchy in the group. Four admins approved
every post and enforce the community guidelines.
Speaker 1 (16:58):
So the admins in the group, they were like moderating,
approving posts, but they were also kind of like leaders
in the group, because you know, people come there with
crisis level stuff, so if you're really struggling with something,
they're the first people to see the post because they
approve it and they really go out of their way
(17:21):
to make sure that people are safe.
Speaker 2 (17:24):
Sarah had a lot in common with one of the admins,
so we'll call Becky.
Speaker 1 (17:30):
She had posted a lot about being a Jewish parent.
Speaker 2 (17:37):
Becky was a huge presence in the group.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
She was like an admin and a super frequent poster.
People were very invested in her life. People knew her
kid by first name and like people had her birth
announcements on their fridge.
Speaker 2 (17:51):
Becky was a successful attorney would overcome a great deal
of adversity.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
She had just a really difficult upbringing and the odds
were completely stacked against her. She was a teen mom.
She had her first baby so young. She had also
suffered child loss, which was unimaginable to me. Just like
(18:16):
thinking about, you know how much I loved my son
before I had even met him. I think that's every
parent's worst fear.
Speaker 2 (18:25):
Becky's toddler had passed away unexpectedly. She was a resource
and a guiding light for other parents in the group
who experienced the same tragedy. Becky managed this grate while
raising six other kids, but the tragedy didn't end there.
Her oldest child had recently been the victim of an
anti gay hate crime.
Speaker 1 (18:46):
The sympathy and like hurt that I felt for her
knowing that her kid had been through this awful.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Becky posted all the details of the hate in the group.
Speaker 1 (19:01):
There were hundreds of comments being like, we love you, Becky.
People were just so genuinely caring for her. She was
receiving gifts, some of them monetary. She was getting constant
(19:22):
affection and attention from everyone.
Speaker 2 (19:28):
But despite all this hardship, Becky was thriving in her
career and putting her all into raising her six children.
She was a super mom.
Speaker 1 (19:39):
Like she's amazing, you know. She had her kid in
these cultural emergence schools, and she was taking these incredible trips,
like they went to Scotland, and like she had these beautiful, enriching,
individualized lives that she had built for these kids. And
I was like, Wow, I need to get my acts
together if I want to be able to a parent
(20:00):
like this. And so I think I kind of idolized
her a little bit.
Speaker 2 (20:06):
Becky posted videos of herself giving updates on her family's life.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
In all the videos, she was alone. There were no kids, sounds,
or never her husband. It was just her. I assumed
that it was like her five minutes alone. She wanted
to connect with other parents.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
Becky's husband and their oldest kids were all on Facebook too.
Speaker 1 (20:31):
Her whole family was for the most part on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (20:34):
Becky and her husband were always flirting with each other
in the group.
Speaker 1 (20:39):
It was a lot. It seemed like it was in
good fun, but it was uncomfortable to see publicly.
Speaker 2 (20:46):
When Sarah joined the group, she was finishing the process
of converting to Judaism. She looked at Becky as a
resource and inspiration for raising kids in the Jewish faith.
But when Sarah tried to connect over this, Becky wasn't interested.
Speaker 1 (21:00):
I was like, why are we not friends? And she
didn't even want to acknowledge it, which was very odd
to me.
Speaker 2 (21:09):
It wasn't just that they were both Jewish. They were
interested in the same things.
Speaker 1 (21:13):
I'm passionate about heritage language, like that's my thing, and
she's a Jewish person who's passionate about heritage language. And
she would not speak to me about it.
Speaker 2 (21:24):
But Becky would post videos of herself showcasing her language
learning skills.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
She was speaking Ladino, which is like Judaeo Spanish. It's
sort of adjacent to Yiddish, which is one of my languages.
And it really drove home to me and a lot
of other people how smart she was.
Speaker 2 (21:47):
Sarah learned that Becky was also a convert. It's not
that common, so she really wanted to bond over that
shared experience.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
I wanted to ask questions about that, and I was like,
really looking for that advice from her, and unfortunately she
just would not.
Speaker 2 (22:05):
And there was another reason she felt connected to Becky.
They both had difficult upbringings. When Becky posted about her childhood,
Sarah chimed in. She understood because she'd been through some
of the same things.
Speaker 1 (22:18):
I jokingly sometimes referred to myself as a rescue. It's like,
you know, I was literally living on the street and
then living in a studio when I met my husband,
and I had probably like twenty bucks, So I was like,
that happens. That's crazy. We both had our like Cinderella moment,
and she just like did not the kinship thing wasn't neutral,
(22:40):
and I was like, okay, I'm being weird.
Speaker 2 (22:43):
Sarah began to worry that maybe she'd said something to
offend Becky, and I was.
Speaker 1 (22:48):
Like, oh, did I like say something? So I was
really concerned.
Speaker 2 (22:54):
That I had really hurt her, So she tried to
connect with other people in the group.
Speaker 1 (22:59):
I started seeking out other Jewish parents in that group,
and everyone was like, you got to talk to Becky,
and I was like, oh, okay, I'll try.
Speaker 2 (23:09):
Sarah would ask Becky about things like breastfeeding and keeping kosher.
Speaker 1 (23:13):
Every time I asked her a question, I would get
an answer, but it didn't line up with anything that
I had ever heard before. But I guess she would know,
and so I started to sort of get back to
that place where I was like, am I qualified for this?
Speaker 2 (23:31):
The interactions with Becky always left her feeling worse than before.
She wasn't even a parent yet, but she started to
doubt her ability to raise her son in the Jewish faith.
Speaker 1 (23:42):
I don't know anything. I was like, maybe I am
further behind with conversion than I thought it was.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
In the Winner of twenty twenty, Sarah's son was born.
She had unexpected complications and the birth didn't go as planned.
Speaker 1 (24:01):
Be very traumatic birth. It was really really bad. He
was almost completely fine, but I needed a lot of help.
At the very end of the birth, while my son
was being put in my arms, I had a psychotic
break and I ended up going into postpartum psychosis, and
(24:23):
I had no idea what that was about.
Speaker 2 (24:26):
Two percent of women develop postpartum psychosis after they give birth.
It can start with obsessive thoughts about the baby's well
being and concerns that something is wrong, but it spirals
into hallucinations and delusions. It's a condition that can be
really dangerous for both the mother and the baby.
Speaker 1 (24:43):
I was hallucinating very vividly but I had no idea
that I was hallucinating, and so I was experiencing really
intense paranoia. You know, a lot of people have intrusive thoughts, scary,
violent ones, and once those thoughts start sounding like a
(25:06):
good idea, you need to talk to someone. I was
having those thoughts stored myself because I thought that if
I didn't get myself out of the picture, something would
happen to my baby.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
She was scared and she didn't know what was going on,
so she reached out to a doctor.
Speaker 1 (25:29):
When I sought advice from medical professionals, I was actually
told it was normal, but I didn't know how to
effectively communicate how serious it was, and so I was
at home in full psychosis with a new.
Speaker 2 (25:45):
This lasted for two months until she hit a breaking point.
Speaker 1 (25:51):
I had like a full breakdown episode, and I was
admitted to a hospital. I stayed there for a little
over a week. I think time really wasn't I'm not
really sure about that. It was really hard to be
away from my baby, you know, but I did feel
(26:12):
that he was safer and I fell safer as well.
Speaker 2 (26:17):
After she left the hospital, she was stable, but the
experience was traumatic, so there was still some fear there.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
I was really afraid to hold my son or be
alone with him for a long time. I loved him,
but I didn't trust myself to be a good parent.
I didn't even trust myself to be like a babysitter.
I just was so afraid that I would do something
terribly wrong.
Speaker 2 (26:45):
So she turned to her support system, the parenting group.
Speaker 1 (26:49):
And as soon as I got out, I went to
the group because it's like, I don't know who else
that I could possibly ask about this, And I started asking, like,
has anyone had this happened before? And the person who
kept popping up was Becky and she had postpartum depression before,
(27:14):
and anxiety and OCD. She knew what she was talking about.
She had been through like a similar situation, not psychosist
to my knowledge, but really really rough mental health stuff
following the birth of a baby. And I was so
grateful to have that resource.
Speaker 2 (27:32):
This was some of Becky's advice.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Just like go to therapy, just drink water, just wait.
And I'm like, oh, okay, she would know, not me.
Speaker 2 (27:45):
Sarah didn't just need advice, she needed someone who'd been
through this and made it out on the other side.
To tell her that she was going to be okay,
that it wasn't her fault, and that she wasn't a
bad mom. But Becky did the opposite.
Speaker 1 (28:01):
She was definitely implying that I wasn't cut out for this.
You know, this just isn't for some people. Maybe it's
not for you.
Speaker 2 (28:15):
Not being cut out for parenting was Sarah's worst fear
at the time. She was isolated by COVID and her
postpartum recovery. So Becky's words cut deep.
Speaker 1 (28:26):
I mean, just validation would have gone a long way,
but she really went out of her way to make
it seem like anyone who was struggling was just so
beneath her and that she was just like super mom.
And so I was really questioning everything, and not in
a good way.
Speaker 2 (28:46):
This was one of the darkest times in Sarah's life.
She was suicidal with a newborn. To keep herself grounded,
Sarah focused on the positives she did have.
Speaker 1 (28:59):
At this point, we are about two months away from
being officially Jewish. I am going to the mikvah and
I'm so excited. It's like a huge deal.
Speaker 2 (29:14):
Mikvah is a spiritual ceremony and it could be used
to officially anoint someone in the Jewish faith. So Sarah's
first mikvah was like a baptism.
Speaker 1 (29:23):
I got dumped and it was amazing. It was so great,
and I passed my little exam and I got my
certificate for me and for my son as the best.
You know, I can't even describe like how like symbolic
and amazing. It fell after my weird, quiver full baptism
(29:44):
experience to go to a mikva of my own volition.
Speaker 2 (29:49):
During the postpartum recovery, her faith was everything. She started
teaching her son Yiddish and leaning into her identity as
a Jewish parent.
Speaker 1 (29:57):
It took me like two or three years to be
what I would consider back to myself. But my light
at the end of the tunnel is that I'm the
Jewish parent in my son's life, and I have to
stick around and I have to keep him in touch
with his culture.
Speaker 2 (30:17):
Slowly, Sarah and her husband learned a parent in a
way that felt right to them. The Facebook group was
instrumental in helping them get there. As their son got older,
Sarah began to have more questions about raising a child
in an inner faith marriage.
Speaker 1 (30:32):
My husband is not religious at all, but we technically
are an interfaith family because he's not Jewish and I am.
And it's really hard to find supportive interfaith parenting spaces.
And Becky was a Jewish parent and an interfaith family,
(30:53):
and so I was like, hey, I really needed to help.
And she was receptive and gave a lot of that
was maybe more critical than I was expecting. Every time
I asked her a question, I would get an answer,
but it didn't line up with anything that I had
ever heard before. But I guess she would know, and
(31:14):
so I started to sort of get back to that
place where I was like, am I qualified for this.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
At the time, Becky had made a post about how
she keeps a kosher kitchen.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
She was very much positioning herself as an authority, and
she made this big deal out of keeping kosher.
Speaker 2 (31:34):
Sarah was considering keeping kosher for the first time herself,
so in the comment section, she asked a follow up
question about setting up a kosher kitchen.
Speaker 1 (31:44):
I just had a question about separate sides of the
kitchen because I haven't done it.
Speaker 2 (31:50):
But strangely, Becky deleted her comment from the post.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
It was weird. My comment got deleted very quickly when
I asked the question, and so I don't even think
I saw what her reply was.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
So finally she turned to her rabbi.
Speaker 1 (32:10):
I contacted him in tears, just like crisis mode, like
I don't think I'm supposed to be doing this. I
can't be a parent like this, like you made a
mistake by letting me be Jewish, Like I don't know
what's going on. And he was the first person to ask,
(32:30):
who is this person? Do you see them a lot?
Can you stop seeing them? I was like, they're just
a person on Facebook, and he's like, why are you
listening to them? Like what what is their role? What
is their authority here? And I was like, dude, I
(32:50):
don't know. Actually I don't call my rabbi dude, but
you know, I was like, yeah, that's a good question.
I had been interacting with her for almost three years,
and I never realized how badly it had been affecting
me until he said that.
Speaker 2 (33:11):
Pretty soon Sarah would get an answer to that question,
one she wasn't expecting.
Speaker 1 (33:18):
So I was at home and then I got added
to this group chat that had like two hundred messages,
and it's called therapy sash and it had the name
of the parenting group. I was like late to be added,
and I was like, what is happening? And then one
(33:40):
of my friends from the group was like, I'll catch
you up. Thank god, you know, thank you so much,
and she tells me we just found out Becky the
admin and the parenting group. I was like, oh, I
know her. Go on. She was like, she is not real.
Speaker 2 (34:22):
After three years of interacting with Becky, an admin in
Sarah's parenting group, the truth was revealed. Becky wasn't who
she said she was.
Speaker 1 (34:33):
She was like, she is a catfish. She's been stealing
people's pictures of their children, pretending that they're her kids
and giving them these crazy backstories. Immediately, my brain went
to the child that had a hate crime committed against them.
What possesses the person to see a picture of a
(34:55):
child they don't know and invent a hate crime against them.
This cannot be.
Speaker 2 (35:01):
The community was reeling. Sarah went to the Facebook page
and Becky was gone.
Speaker 1 (35:07):
And then I saw the announcement from one of the admins,
just like, how heart broken and shaken she was.
Speaker 2 (35:20):
Two hundred of the most active group members were all
in a text called therapy session, comparing their notes, trying
to understand what was happening.
Speaker 1 (35:31):
How could she not be real? I had seen her
talking to her husband, like I'd seen videos of her,
and things just kept coming out over and over like
all day, and for that whole day, I just completely
abandoned my work and just stayed in the group chat.
Speaker 2 (35:50):
Becky had posted videos of herself, her real self with
her real name, but nearly everything else about her was
a lie. She didn't have six kids, she didn't have any,
She had never been a parent at all.
Speaker 1 (36:06):
We found out that none of her children are real.
Her children were pictures of someone else's children that she
had been taking from an account that she was following.
Her son that was talking to children of other people
(36:26):
in the group on kids Messenger was her and she
had given him this really traumatic backstory, but he wasn't
real at all. And then she had her husband that
was her as well.
Speaker 2 (36:43):
There was no husband. Becky just made a fake account
where she posed as her husband and filled out his
profile using stolen pictures from the Internet.
Speaker 1 (36:53):
She had taken pictures from I believe an actor from Thailand.
Her entire family was her.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Some people were friends with Becky in real life, and
they were blindsided too.
Speaker 1 (37:09):
People had met her in person while she was pregnant,
but she wasn't pregnant, and it was like she fooled
these moms of multiple kids. Nobody could have seen this coming.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Becky lied about the death of her two year old
daughter to a group of parents, some of whom had
actually lost kids of their own.
Speaker 1 (37:36):
The thing that like sticks with me was the amount
of other parents in the group who had lost their
children like toddlers and even older or younger, who were
consoling her and sharing their similar struggles like what, who?
(38:00):
Who could do this?
Speaker 2 (38:01):
It was the extent of her lies that kept people
from questioning her.
Speaker 1 (38:06):
If you say something like did you even have the
death of a child and you're wrong, you are the
worst for doubting this person, and no one who's an
actual normal person would want to do that. Then there's
also the practical side of it, where she can just
(38:28):
delete your comment, she can just kick you out of
the group. She was an admin, so she could get
rid of you.
Speaker 2 (38:34):
The admins, the people most intimately involved in running the group,
were the ones who discovered Becky's fraud, and they needed answers.
Speaker 1 (38:43):
When she was confronted by the admins that she was
close with, she said that she can't stop. I don't
understand why, but I do believe that she can't stop.
Speaker 2 (38:58):
After Becky's accounts were deleted, the parenting group banded together
to find out more about the real Becky.
Speaker 1 (39:05):
When we started finding out more about her and we
spoke to someone in her life who knew more about
her as a real person on her background, they revealed
to us that she had been doing this since high school,
making up people and making up herself.
Speaker 2 (39:24):
There was one thing she didn't lie about. She was
actually a lawyer, and the kind of lawyer who protected
vulnerable people.
Speaker 1 (39:33):
I think that's the only thing she has ever told
the truth about other than her cat's name.
Speaker 2 (39:40):
One of the admins gathered evidence and reported Becky's actions
to the bar association in her home state, but as
far as the group knows, nothing has ever come with
that report.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
It seems like it was a joke to a lot
of people, because I think that there is this attitude
where if something happens online, mainly online, it's not real.
Speaker 2 (40:02):
And.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It was very real to a lot of us.
Speaker 2 (40:07):
It was very real for Sarah, especially when she found
out she.
Speaker 1 (40:12):
Wasn't Jewish at all.
Speaker 2 (40:14):
For three years, Sarah was repeatedly dismissed and belittled by Becky,
told that she didn't know what she was talking about
when it came to her faith. And worst of all,
when Sarah was going through a mental health crisis, Becky
was there saying she'd been through something similar and telling
Sarah that maybe she wasn't cut out to be a parent.
Speaker 1 (40:34):
For me, it was transparently life or death at one
point with stories like this, if I hear them from
other people, you know, like on like that Catah show,
I'm like, at what point would this person call it?
At what point would this person be like okay? And
(40:56):
for her, it was not a new mom considering ending things,
So I don't know what it could vastly be, because anyone
in their right mind would have stopped. She knew what
I was going through, everyone did, and she just did
that regardless.
Speaker 2 (41:17):
It was an insidious kind of interaction that undermined Sarah's
trust in herself. Becky was like a personification of Sarah's
worst fears.
Speaker 1 (41:29):
That insecurity was there and it's not like her doing that,
It was there. A lot of it was just that
I felt that way, but she really honed in on it.
She could have really sense that stuff. And it's taken
until like a couple of days ago to realize how
(41:50):
awful and how deep it went and how much it
affected me. This whole experience just really made me doubt
my abilities as a parent and my self as a person,
and just like basically every aspect of my identity that
I had spent so long trying to find it like
(42:15):
shook everything.
Speaker 2 (42:17):
But then she started seeing it all differently.
Speaker 1 (42:22):
I saw that she had lied about something that made
me feel like an impostor, and she was the impostor
the whole time. I had actually done it, Like I
had overcome a lot of the same things that she
had lied about.
Speaker 2 (42:39):
She's not just talking about parenting, She's talking about persevering
after a tough childhood and homelessness, finding identity and a
new religion, and surviving a postpartum mental health crisis.
Speaker 1 (42:53):
It went from me being angry about that and feeling
like I had like myself down to me feeling like
I am really proud of myself. I did this thing
that is so hard that she had to lie about it.
I did it for real.
Speaker 2 (43:14):
One question Sarah still has is that, out of all
the groups to catfish, why did Becky choose this one.
Speaker 1 (43:22):
I really can't understand her reason for finding a group
that was parents trying to break cycles of abuse and
take advantage of them and make them doubt themselves, people
who are in this incredibly vulnerable spot of trying to
(43:45):
be better for their children and trying to be better
for themselves. If I were evil, I would leave that
one alone, you know. I just that seems like a line.
Speaker 2 (43:57):
Becky's deception changed the group, but for Sarah, it brought
her closer to the other real parents out there who
really wanted to connect and support each other.
Speaker 1 (44:07):
A lot of people did actually just disappear, just quit Facebook,
quit online stuff. I'd not blame them at all. But
the thing that I found so kind of heartwarming, like
it almost feels like a Hallmark movie, is this pack
of moms that in hindsight saw somebody messing with other
(44:30):
moms and their kids and were like, absolutely not.
Speaker 4 (44:34):
And we were there for each other, and we've gotten
really close. A lot of us have the way that
we were able to show up for each other. That
kind of undid a lot of the distrust that was
immediately planted by this, like that.
Speaker 1 (44:52):
Was the initial function of the group.
Speaker 2 (44:56):
We first heard about this story through someone else, another mom,
who wrote into our email Betrayal pod at gmail dot com.
On betrayal, we share stories about how one person couldn't
see the deception right in front of them, but in
this case, it was a group of thousands of people,
a whole community. So we asked members to send in
(45:17):
voice notes about how Becky impacted them. This is what
they said. I got to know her family.
Speaker 5 (45:26):
She presented herself as this perfect parent.
Speaker 2 (45:31):
She posted prolifically.
Speaker 6 (45:33):
And also judging other people's parenting like she was just
this kind of professional.
Speaker 7 (45:39):
She would center herself in these conversations as almost an
authority figure.
Speaker 5 (45:44):
She always made it seem like it was this effortless,
seamless thing, and she just has it all together.
Speaker 6 (45:51):
I saw my spouse self conscious. It's really aggravating that
anybody is comparing themselves to somebody who is, like measurably impossible.
Speaker 5 (46:02):
I truly felt like I wasn't good enough, I was
not a good enough parent.
Speaker 2 (46:08):
When the community found out that Becky was a fraud,
that deception felt personal.
Speaker 8 (46:14):
Becky was talking to children pretending to be children.
Speaker 2 (46:18):
Her father's not dead. He's living still and is a physician.
Speaker 8 (46:24):
I've seen several friends of mine severely impacted by this
and how they just can't trust anybody.
Speaker 5 (46:31):
So many of us are really trying our best and
our great parents. We just aret out the perfect parent
because the perfect parent does not exist.
Speaker 2 (46:44):
Sarah doesn't like the framing of looking on the bright
side or the silver lining, but she did learn something
from all of this. Here's Sarah again.
Speaker 1 (46:54):
This was one of the situations in my life that
pushed me to begin questioning who put you in charge?
That's this simple question, but it has been incredibly difficult
for me to ask because I was taught under no
circumstances should you ever ask that? And now I do.
Speaker 2 (47:16):
Today Sarah has big news.
Speaker 1 (47:20):
Well, I'm almost eight months pregnant. We are having a little.
Speaker 2 (47:24):
Girl, and this time around, she's feeling more confident in herself.
Speaker 1 (47:30):
I don't feel the sense of dread that I thought
I would because I've put a lot of effort into
building a super strong community online and in real life with
people that I know and people that I trust. I'm
really excited to start out with the confidence in my
(47:52):
role as the Jewish mom. I'm feeling really confident and
excited in my abilities, in Paul's abilities, and in my
son's abilities to be a big brother. I mean, there
are challenges always, and I have no idea what they're
going to be yet, but I think that we can
(48:13):
handle it.
Speaker 2 (48:14):
We end all of our weekly episodes with the same question,
why did you want to tell your story?
Speaker 1 (48:20):
The reason that I want to talk about it is
because I do think that she can't stop. I do
think that she's doing it again, and I think that
there are people other people in the world who do
stuff like this, of course, and so I want to
be there for another person to just say, like, you're
not crazy.
Speaker 2 (48:44):
On the next episode of Betrayal, Kee.
Speaker 1 (48:49):
You eventually told me the whole story, and I said,
why Met?
Speaker 8 (48:55):
He said, as my uncle would say, why not you.
Speaker 2 (49:03):
If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal
team or want to tell us your betrayal story, email
us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod
at gmail dot com. We're grateful for your support. One
way to.
Speaker 7 (49:17):
Show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple
Podcasts and don't forget to rate and review Betrayal five
star reviews, Go a long way, a big thank you
to all of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of
Glass Podcasts, a division of Glass Entertainment Group and partnership
with iHeart Podcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy
Glass and Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning,
(49:41):
written and produced by Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Associate producers are Kristin Melcuriy and Caitlin Golden. Our iHeart
team is Ali Perry and Jessica Kriinchech. Audio editing and
mixing by Matt Delvecchio, Additional editing support from Tanner Robbins.
Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Baines.
Speaker 2 (50:01):
Music library provided by Mob Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts.
Host
Andrea Gunning
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