November 6, 2025 • 42 mins
Growing up, Mackenzie and her older sister Leigh were inseparable. Then, a Facebook friend request sets off a chain of lies that would change both of their lives and relationship forever.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,
I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way,
there's no way. And the first thing I do is
get my phone and I probably said like I fucking
hate you or something like that. What she replies back
(00:22):
is where are you right now? Not what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I can go to a middy who I don't know.
I cry first dances with dads dead.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's mckentie. She's the kind of person who has a
heart exterior is a big softy on the inside.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm on the floor. It's so a big baby. I
just love love.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And she has a story unlike any we've ever heard.
It starts as the story of two sisters, Mackenzie and
her older sister who were calling Lee.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
She was my very best friend, shared a bedroom. We
would dance and sing to backsheet boys and in sync
all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
As kids, Mackenzie and Lee did everything together.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We were attached at the hip for a long time.
She used to make me come to her sleepovers because
she would get homesick, So me, as an eight year old,
would be coming along to these like cool preteen sleepovers
with all of her best friends.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Even though Mackenzie was three years younger than.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Lee, I was the bigger little sister, so I was
I was taller than Lee. I acted like the older sibling,
so I would take care of her.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
For a while, Mackenzie tried to be just like her
older sister.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
She had so many friends, and all of her friends
were pretty, and she had so many guy friends, and
so many guys liked her. So I just always wanted
to be in her realm to see how does she
do it? Because I couldn't figure out, for the life
of me how to connect with men. So I'm watching
her with boys. I was, oh, I gotta watch my
big sister.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But as they grew up, Mackenzie became her own person.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
That was a comboy. I don't want to wear a dress.
I was very athletic and very good at softball. My
goal at that point was I'm going to get a
scholarship go to school in the States, and then I
wanted to try to get to the Olympics. Fifteen.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Canada softball became McKenzie's life. Her sister played two, but
she didn't take it as seriously as Mackenzie.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
She played high level, so she had tournaments and stuff,
but she was a huge, huge party or in high school.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Mackenzie was three years younger. They were in different stages
of their life.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Lee's off getting drunk in a field somewhere, and I'm
the one that's like, can I have twenty dollars to do?
In the movies on Friday.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Lee was cool, but she wasn't too cool to have
her younger sister around.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
This is my cool sister, Like she's graduated and we're
listening to Lose That by Eminem in the car in
our Toyota Echo.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After Lee graduated from high school, she moved in with
her boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And then he cheated on her, so she ends up
moving back home.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It was the early two thousands and Facebook was brand new.
Everyone was navigating social media for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And of course Lee's pretty, so she had something up
where it's like two thousand friends, and I remember Lee
came to me and was like, Oh, I'm talking to
this guy that added me on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Lee showed Mackenzie a photo of the guy who had
reached out to her. His name was Ryan.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
He was very good looking and muscular, kind of a
buzz cut, dark eyes, really nice smile, ripped all that
kind of stuff when you're nineteen turning twenty you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But it wasn't just about Ryan's looks. Lee had been
sharing her writing on Facebook and he had taken the
time to read it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
She's like, he messaged me saying he really clicked with
my poetry and he really liked it.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
It was sweet. Mackenzie looked at Ryan's Facebook profile and
noticed that they had a shared mutual friend Lee's softball
teammate Amy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
And I was like, oh, well, did you pop Dan
me and Lee? She's like, yeah, Actually she texted me
and said, oh, how do you know Ryan? And obviously
Lee he's like, well, I don't. He had me on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was re assuring for Lee to talk to somebody
that knew Ryan in real life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Amy's like, oh, when I was in Calgary, he was
living there and we worked together for like a year,
and he's one of my really good friends. He's such
a good guy.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Lee and Ryan started talking. They got along really well
and would spend hours each day messaging back and forth.
Even though they lived in different cities, they found creative
ways to have long distance states. Within a few months.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
They are literally Facebook official. They both have it on
their Facebook.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
In December of two thousand and nine, Mackenzie was going
through her first real breakup. Lee encouraged Sure to get
back on the dating scene.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, he's like, oh, Ryan wants to talk to you. No,
like you want to talk to me, Like, I don't know.
He says he has a cousin that you'd really like.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Ryan reached out to McKenzie to vouch for his cousin.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You guys would really get along. He really likes baseball,
all this kind of stuff, And I'm like, okay, if
you're vouching for him, Ryan's a great guy, so I'm
gonna listen.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Mackenzie decided to give this guy a shot. His name
was Matt. He and Ryan both lived on the East
Coast of Canada, which was far away from the sisters.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So it wasn't like just getting the car and drive here.
It was airplane six hoverflight hyper deal.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
After dating long distance for months, Ryan started planning his
first trip to visit Lee.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
He was supposed to come Christmas Eve. So we're looking
forward to meeting him. My parents were like okay with
him staying here. But then four days before he messages
Lee and tells her that he can't come.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Ryan's mom had cancer and her health had started declining.
He was no longer willing to miss Christmas with her.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Lee is beside herself. She's absolutely heartbroken because this was
going to be their first meeting.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Ryan felt horrible for canceling the trip to He had
a special Christmas gift plan for Lee, and in order
to make sure it got to her on time, he
solicited the help of their mutual friend Amy.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Christmas Eve rolls around and Amy shows up with this box,
hands it to Lee and it's a Bill de bear
And in the card it says, because I can't be
there and this is my replacement, like hug him and
sleep with him. So that night on she's sleeping with
this bear.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Everything light As Lee and her boyfriend Ryan got more serious,
Mackenzie was starting to develop a crush on his cousin Matt.
He'd become a part of her daily life.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
He was always, you know, messaging me every morning, making
sure I got up and pushing me to go to
my practices and stuff like that, and then we would
we'd talk baseball because he was a Yankees fan, I'm
a Blue Jays fan, so we would kind of chirp
each other about baseball a lot.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But Matt wanted their relationship to be deeper than just
chatting about sports.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It just kind of slowly turned into, like him kind
of saying, I want to date you, I want to
bet with you.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Mackenzie felt the same way, but she really wanted to
meet him in person before they made things official.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I am very big on face to base interaction. I
need to have that connection before I can say we
can meet boyfriend and girlfriend type feel.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Mackenzie was cautious, but Matt was really making an effort
and that meant a lot to her. Their jokes and
sports banter turned to deeper conversations and a real.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Connection, validating my feelings and making sure I feel heard
and he would call me babe and baby and all
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Matt and Ryan hung out a lot and sent the
girls photos of their adventures hiking together, spending time with family,
or just small moments in their daily routines. Their friend
Amy was happy her matchmaking skills had been such a success.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Amy is talking with Lee sporadically, checking in on how
her and Ryan are doing and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Plus it was kind of fun for Mackenzie and Lee
to be dating cousins.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Me and Lee will say we're watching a movie and
then we have Matt and Ryan pressing play on the
same time.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
They'd watch rom coms together. It was sweet. But Lee
and Mackenzie were growing tired of the long distance. They
would try to plan visits with Matt and Ryan, but
it never seemed to be the right time.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It was just always, no, you know this, my mom's
immune compromise. You can't come here. There's no place for
you to stay. Right now. I'm trying to figure out
stuff with my mom. I have classes too often, I'm
going to be working too much. I'm like, well, shit,
they have such a hard life. And then well, I'm
such a bad person for trying to put my feelings first.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Lee, I had never had an online relationship before. It
was taking a toll on her.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It was endless of her drinking, coming home and she's crying,
and she's coming into my bedroom and she's talking about Oh,
she's fighting with Ryan and it's her, you know, missing
shifts at work. Her friends are now very few and
far between. They don't believe that you can fall in
love with somebody over the internet. So Lee is now
(10:28):
at this point, you know, she's losing her best friend,
she's losing her friend group, the people that she usually
turns to. I'm now her best friend because I'm in
a similar circumstance.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
The whole situation brought the sisters closer together. McKenzie was
at a crossroads. She was graduating high school and thinking
about her future. Beckenzie had spent her whole life working
towards a career as a professional softball player, and now
she was debating if that was the right choice.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I just kind of I got to the point where
I didn't want to be just that's what my identity was.
Because my identity, that's all people associated me with. Mackenzie
just plays off all that's what she does.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So McKenzie made a hard decision. She decided not to
go to college.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I'm not going to take any of my scholarships.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
If she wasn't in school, she would need a job.
When she was lost on what to do, Matt had
an idea.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Matt let me know that Amy works for a construction
company and she can probably get me a job.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Amy worked in construction and Matt did too. He told
Mackenzie more about how the industry worked.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I was going, Yeah, that's totally at my alley, different
every day to go into different job sites and all
that kind of stuff. So I was like, yeah, forget
Matt says, hey, just give her a text and she
can probably get you a job.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
She texted Amy and submitted her resume. Two weeks later,
she was hired for the job.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
My first day, I was super nervous. Amy offered to
come on the day off, introduced me to everybody that
worked there. Day was like, Wow, she's really down to earth.
She's really chill, you know, she's a tomboy like me,
very easy to talk to, funny, that kind of stuff.
I can't believe she would go out of her way
(12:20):
to try to make me feel comfortable. That's really nice
of her. From that point on, we became best friends
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
After graduating high school, Mackenzie took a job in construction
with a mutual friend named Amy. Amy had played softball
in high school with Mackenzie's sister Lee, but the sisters
also knew her through their long distance boyfriends, and over time,
mackenzie's friendship with Amy grew.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We worked together almost every day. She'd come over to
our house a lot. She was very funny and she
was very outgoing and just easy to be around. She
would come over. We'd watched Jersey Shore every Thursday together. Jersdays,
you know this, bumps pushed up chapstick. It was best
(13:30):
and her and I like, I could just be me
and she was the same. So we fed off each other.
You just have two freaking weird people together and that's
a vibe.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Amy never really dated anyone. When Mackenzie asked her about it,
she explained that it was because of her faith.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
She's like, I just I'm Christian and literally wearing a
purity ring like Jonah's brother's stuff, shout out to Jonah's
brothers and she but she had a cross on. She
was like, that's just how I was raised.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
But McKenzie liked sharing her love life with Amy, especially
because Amy knew her boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
He was my kind of outlet, being like, why is
Matt being crazy today? I need you to talk to him.
We're same with Lee.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
McKenzie and Matt's relationship was steady, but Lee and Ryan
were really struggling with the distance because Ryan still hadn't
come to visit.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Every other day. They're arguing, like, why aren't you coming here?
And you know my mom's sick, you know I was
in a car accident, you know Matt's not doing well.
It was very much telling Lee, why are you making
me feel bad when my life is in shambles and
you're supposed to be supporting me. You're supposed to be
my better half.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
For Mackenzie's nineteenth birthday, Lee and Amy decided to take
her out to a bar to celebrate, but as soon
as they got there, Lee's.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Arguing with Ryan even on my birthday, bbming each other.
He's getting mad at her that she's drinking, saying she's
drinking too much. Amy's being super weird.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Mackenzie chalked it up to the fact that Amy didn't drink.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
She's like, I need to leave, and I'm kind of like,
we just got here. I just had my second beer.
She had left my birthday and then the whole night,
Lee and Ryan are arguing.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
The relationship between Lee and Ryan was just plain unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Lee is now not going out with her friends. Her
friends didn't get the online relationship. Why she was adamant
that she had to be with this man. This was
her bl end doll. She's not leaving her room. I
can hear her crying yourself to sleep most night. I
can hear She'll send videos to him of her crying
(15:49):
and yelling and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Mackenzie would talk to Amy about her and Lee's relationship issues,
but often Amy would side with the guys.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm at work and Amy's being weird and super angry,
and I'm like, what is wrong? I understand Ryan's your
best friend, but you don't need to involve yourself that
much into their arguments. Would be talking with Matt Men.
I would say something and it would piss him off,
and sure enough Amy's giving me the you know, the
(16:21):
cold shoulder, and it just was like this cycle of toxicity.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Amy couldn't help but get involved in their relationships, especially
Lee and Ryan's.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
We would be on a drive and then Amy would
just turn to me and be like, so, your sister
and Ryan are fighting. And I'm like, when are they
not fighting? And She's like, yeah, what does your sister
said about Ryan? Like, what does she feel and I'm like,
she's in love with him. I don't think it really matters. Well,
(16:55):
I think it does matter. And I'm like, well, it's
not your relationships. I don't I don't understand why you're
asking this. Well, is she talking to any guys when
she goes out? And I'm like, no, I don't see it.
She's will you go with her sometimes you go to
the bars. I'm like, I don't think it matters. Amy like,
(17:17):
we're literally we're going to get we run to Sound eleven,
We're getting slur face and we're getting a two dollar
candy bag. We don't need to worry about this right now.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It was weird how Amy would involve herself, but McKenzie
tried to ignore it. At this point in their friendship.
It was twenty ten. A documentary came out that everybody
was talking about. Ryan recommended it to Lee.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
It's called catfish, and we never heard the term.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
These days, catfishing stories feel like a part of the zeitgeist,
but back in twenty ten, this was a brand new concept.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Facebook's fresh out the gate. We all are kind of
getting used to what's going on. Instagram's not even out yet.
You trust that everyone is who they say they are.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
McKenzie was curious about the Catfish documentary.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I had talked to Matt, and Matt's like, yeah, I
watched it. It's a really good movie. I think it's
something you guys should watch to put your mind at ease.
Abous we have Amy then saying, oh, we can watch
it together. So now it's me Lee and Amy and
we're watching Catfish together. We're like, I couldn't even imagine
(18:33):
if that happened to us. That would be devastating. Lee
is just like, I'm so glad I found the love
of my life. I'm gonna marry and have kids with
And I'm glad he told us to watch this movie together.
I would be absolutely mortified if that ever happened to me.
I can't believe you didn't see the songs.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
At first, it was fun that Mackenzie and Lee's boyfriends
were cousins and that their best friend Amy knew the
guys too. All of her favorite people knew each other.
But as time went on, Mackenzie started to feel like
she was stuck in the middle of a complicated web.
As Lee's relationship with Ryan got worse, it became too
much drama for McKenzie.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Lee's fighting with Ryan, and then Ryan's trying to talk
to me because he wants me to calm her down.
And then I had Matt talking to me saying, this
is really bad for Lee and Ryan. You need to help.
And then I have freaking Amy also being like Ryan
told me they're fighting, and I'm like, I can't do
(19:32):
this anymore.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So in January of twenty eleven, Mackenzie broke up with Matt.
She told Lee that she needed space from the whole situation,
especially her sister's toxic relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
When I stopped talking to Matt, I think that was
really really hard on her because at this point I
just can't listen to it, and so now you know
she's alone in this.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Essentially, Mackenzie saw the damage that Lee's relationship with Ryan
was causing. She hardly recognized her vibrant, outgoing older sister.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It just progressively was just her shutting herself off from
the rest of the world. You can see her just deteriorating.
She got really, really, really skinny, and it just was, Yeah,
it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
McKenzie wasn't in a rush to be in another relationship.
Matt on the other hand, we did no time finding
a new girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
One of my best friends approached me and she said, Hey,
I just want to let you know that Matt has
messaged me and are you okay if we start talking?
And I was like, you know what, girl, do you
want that freaking bag of worms? You want all that drama?
All the power to you, sister. So they started talking.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But after a few months, Mackenzie's friend noticed something weird
about her conversation with Matt.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
She brought up the fact that when her and Amy
hang out and she would text Matt, it seemed like
Amy's boone was going off. It would vibrate when he
was messaging Matt. I kind of brushed it off, I said, honestly,
(21:22):
I think it might just be a coincidence. Her and
Matt and Ryan are always talking. Amy's also always talking
to me. It's probably just that kind of thing. And
she's a gay right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
But later that night, dalt started to creep into Mackenzie's
mind for the first time, she let herself consider the
question what if Matt and Ryan weren't real? As she
thought back on their relationship, little details that seemed like
nothing at the time all started to add.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Up, all the gifts we've gotten are hand given to
us from Amy, never in the mail, never got an address.
And then I had a blanket was handmade from Matt,
and Amy has the same exact handmade blanket that she
(22:15):
made Matt and Ryan also worked for a construction company
that is exactly the same as what Amy and I did.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Finally, it all clicked.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I just was like, Yeah, I think Amy is Matt.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Could this be true? Were the sisters talking to Amy
the entire time? Could Amy have invented not one, but
two fake boyfriends. Mackenzie needed proof.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Now Mackenzie is a detective and I am all over this.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Mackenzie knew that Ryan would often send Lee photos of
the construction sites he worked at.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I ended up messaging Lee and I said, if he
sends you any photos of job sites at, please send
them to me.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Ryan worked in construction all the way across the country
in eastern Canada. If he was really who he said
he was, Mackenzie should have no way of recognizing the sites.
But if it was really Amy, this could be Mackenzie's
chance to catch her in a lie. And finally she
(23:24):
got a clue. Lee forwarded a photo Ryan had sent her.
He said it was from one of his.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Work sites, and it's this picture of this really really
high end bar of a really really nice house. The
light pictures super unique. You'll never see it in any
other type of house. I textedly and I said, oh,
did Ryan send you this today? And she goes, oh, yeah,
he just sent it to me. He said he wants
to put that in our house. He's going to build
(23:53):
it for me. And so what I do is I
take that photo. And there's one person that I work
with and I told my suspicions of and so I
emailed it to her and I said, you're working with
Amy today? Is this the site you're at? And my
coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I saw
(24:18):
Amy sit down take a photo of that light fixture
and talk about how much she liked it and how
she wants it in her future house.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
One day, McKenzie suspected her friend Amy might be catfishing
(24:49):
both her and her sister Lee. One day, her sister's
boyfriend sent her a photo of a light fixture and
said he wanted it to be in their future house.
One day, McKenzie texted her coworker who was working on
site with Amy, and asked if the photo looked familiar, and.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
My coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I
saw Amy sit down, take a photo of that light
fixture and talk about how much she liked it and
how she wants it in her future house.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
One day, Mackenzie was mad.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,
I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
She grabs her phone and texted Amy.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I said, I can't believe you could watch my sister
all into this deep depression for two years, lose all
of her friends.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Amy responded right away.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
What she replies back is where are you right now?
I'm coming to see you. I'm like, oh no, no, but
I don't want to see you.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Next, Mackenzie called her sister. She had to break the
news that her boyfriend, who she had been in love
with for years, was actually their friend Amy hiding behind
a screen.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I called Lee right away and I told her. And
when we got home and I was telling my parents,
Lee was basically just sitting on the couch, not really
having a reaction. And she's like, no, I'm talking. I'm
(26:36):
talking with Ryan. He's real. Maybe Matt's her, but Ryan's real.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Mackenzie was stunned. She was not prepared for this reaction.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And I'm like, Lee, what are you talking about? It's
all here, it does you can't have Matt without the
other that like, what do you mean? I was so
mad because I'm giving you the reasoning of why we
haven't seen these people.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Finally, they had answers, but Lee didn't want to hear them.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Nobody could say anything to her. She'd be like, no,
that's just not true because she was so infatuated in
love with this man. They've talked about their wedding, they
have their names of their kids picked out.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Lee felt so far away. Nothing Mackenzie said seemed to
reach her. She was used to sharing everything with her
older sister. Lee was the only person who understood every
inch of her world, but in that moment, it felt
like they were on different planets, which.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Kind of began the deterioration of our friendship me and
my sister. Was how angry I was and how she
continued to believe that this individual was a real person.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Mackenzie knew that in order for her sister. To come
to terms with the truth, Lee would need to hear
it from me herself, so they decided to confront Amy
at her home.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Amy wouldn't come out of the house. We met with
her mom, and her mom had no idea who Matt
Ryan are, even though she said that Matt Ryan know
her mom and all this stuff. Amy finally came out
(28:25):
after half an hour and said that Matt isn't real.
Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks
Lee straightly. I swear to you he is real. I've
touched him.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Mackenzie was fuming. Amy had spent years tricking her and
her sister into falling in love with guys that didn't exist.
She had controlled their lives, manipulated their emotions, cause Lee's
health to deteriorate, and now when they had proof of
her betrayal, she was still standing in front of them
(29:06):
and denying it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I looked at Amy and I said, so, your friend
Sam started talking to me as a joke and she
said yeah. I said, and you knew he was talking
to me as a joke and she said yes, And
I'm like, and you knew I was going through depression
and getting diagnosed with anxiety. And she said yes, And
I said, and you thought that would be funny? And
(29:31):
she said, well, I didn't know you. And I said
I even if I didn't know you, I wouldn't allow
someone to do that to you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mackenzie gave Amy one last chance to tell the full truth.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I asked her, I want you to look me in
the eye and tell me that Ryan is real. And
Amy looked me in the eye and said yes. And
that day I basically walked out of her house and.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I said to Lee that if she ever admits us
one day, she had her chance to tell us, like, she's.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
In love with you, Lee. And Lee's like, you know, Mackenzie,
if he told you Matt isn't real at somebody else,
So just get over it. No, Ryan's real.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Lee's response was devastating.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I found out months later, six months later that she
was still talking with Ryan after she told me she wasn't.
And I just want to pick her up and shake her.
I'm like, how can you not see this?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Mackenzie and her parents went to the police, hoping that
they could do something to stop Amy.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
We saw an officer and basically it was just are
they using like SIN numbers, which is social insurance numbers.
It's like no, it's like, well, they're not technically feeling
an identity, they're just using their photos, so it's not
a crime. And my parents were just like, well, she's
(31:00):
going to keep doing this. She's obviously going to keep
talking to people and hurting people's lives and you know,
and they're like, all we can say is like, don't
add people you don't know, and don't talk to them.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Shortly after that, Lee moved to Toronto.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Basically she ran away.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
To this day, Lee's never admitted that Ryan wasn't real.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
In reality, Lee fell in love. You want to choose
to believe that the people that you end up loving
are good, and choosing to believe it is easier than
accepting the fact that you've been talking to somebody who
is not real for the past three years, who you've
fallen in love with, who's actually a woman, who you
(31:48):
may or may not have sent pictures and other text messages.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
What was especially disturbing was that the betrayal wasn't committed
at random or by a stream. The person that did
this was Mackenzie's best friend.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
This was somebody who was in my house every single day,
somebody who I told all my secrets about, you know,
like I told her how I felt with men and
my insecurities and I had intimacy issues with men, and
I was afraid of whatever, and so she knows all this.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Mackenzie felt so alone. The only person that could possibly
understand what she was going through was refusing to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Trying to talk with my sister. I wanted to talk
about it, and she wanted to put it in a
pretty box and put it in the closet. I'm your
little sister. We're supposed to be best friends. You're supposed
to help me, You're supposed to help each other, and
instead you ran away and you chose to not talk
(32:52):
about it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Amy caused long lasting damage to Lee and the sister's friendship.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You watch the person who idolized so much, and after
everything kind of happened, it was she just wasn't Lee anymore.
I was mad at her for a very long time.
Now we're better, obviously, but we're just not the same.
We're just our friendship. That relationship hasn't been the same
(33:24):
since everything happened.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Mackenzie reached out for support and started going to therapy.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I needed that help because I was angry. I was
trying to desensitize myself from this story and put together
what the hell just happened.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Looking back now, Mackenzie can see why Amy's catfishing was
so convincing. She had created two characters, Matt and Ryan,
who were always confirming each other's stories. If one of
them said they were hiking, the girls would get sent
photos of Matt and Ryan together on a hike, just
like said. There was no reason to doubt it because
(34:03):
the idea of creating a scheme with multiple fake people
seemed so far fetched.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Once Matt was brought into it, it made it seem
more real. That's too many people who, you know what
I mean. I don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Mackenzie never found out who the guys and the photos were,
but she suspects that they were real cousins or even
brothers who had public social media profiles, and Amy must
have been stealing their pictures without their knowledge.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I still have photos of them. I've reversed. I whige
searched all of them, and I can't find anything.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Amy introduced these characters at a time when both Lee
and Mackenzie really needed someone to talk to.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Matt Ryan started talking to both of us in a
very vulnerable time. Lee is very heartbroken from her previous
relationship being cheated on. I'm in kind of the same boat,
but also I'm going through depression and anxiety and I
obviously don't know how to wrap my head around that.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
But this story doesn't end here, because ten years later,
the sisters both found ways move forward and heal. Lee
eventually built the life she'd always dreamed of.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Lee's doing great. She meets a guy. She has two
little kids now, little boy and a little girl, and
they are absolutely adorable and I love them so very much.
She's thriving as a mom, and her husband is one
of my favorite people of all time. He's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And Mackenzie build a life she genuinely loved too. It
started when she realized she liked girls.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
It was like, yeah, okay, I've never actually kissed a
girl before kissed her and then I remember being like,
uh oh, that's what it's supposed to feel like.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
She finally fell authentically herself.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It was the opening of Okay, I can be me now.
I had my first girlfriend, fell in love. Then we
fast forward to twenty twenty three. I'm out living my
best life and my friend from back When Everything Happens
sends me a DM on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Mackenzie was surprised to hear from her. She opened the message.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Just basically saying, hey, you know, I know we don't
talk anymore, but I watched all your pictures and your
videos and I'm just so proud of you. You look
so happy. And I just said, oh, that's great. Hope
you're doing well, and she goes, I actually messaged you
because I got a message from Amy. A couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Amy had reached out to Mackenzie's friend with a voice
memo confession. Mackenzie's friend send her the file and.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I play it and I hear Amy's voice and she
says it was me. It was always me. I did it.
I'm sorry, and then she says, I was struggling with
internalized homophobia and that's why I did the things I did.
(37:27):
I just was like, are you joking.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Internalized homophobia is when society's homophobia causes a queer person
to feel shame, guilt, or even self hatred about their
own identity. Amy was essentially saying that she had created
fake straight relationships with the sisters because she didn't feel
like she could come out as gay and be herself.
At the time, Mackenzie knew how harmful internalized homophobia could
(37:55):
be because she experienced it herself for years, but it
wasn't an excuse to catfish and harm people.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
You're giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things
you did. I'm not going to my friend's house pretending
to be other people. I'm not manipulating other people into,
you know, doing X, Y and Z. I'm not gaslighting
people into talking to these people that aren't real. I'm
(38:25):
not sleeping over at my friend's house trying to cuddle
them in the night while they're talking to this big
person that's actually me. No, I barely have a friendship
with my sister, and it's all because of what she
decided to do for three years.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Amy's apology didn't feel genuine.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
She did this because she wanted to. She did this
because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she
likes the control. She took advantage of young girls that
had just broken up with their significant others that were
vulnerable and prayed upon them. We've all moved on and
(39:13):
that whole apology. You're doing it to see if you
can still affect our lives. You want to see if
you still have that hold.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
In the end, Amy has to live with what she did,
but she doesn't have power over Mackenzie and Lee anymore.
Mackenzie has moved on. She processed Amy's betrayal, but she
didn't let it paralyze her. She hasn't stopped trusting people.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
When I love, I love with all of me. I
don't hold back. I don't hide the fact that I
am an emotional person. I'm a great friend. I think
I'm a great sister. I think you know. I just
love people, good people.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
We end every weekly episode with the same question, why
do you want to share your story?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I chose to write in because everybody's on socially, Yeah,
everybody has a phone. Betrayal can be on so many
different levels, and I want people to know that regardless
of the betrayal you go through. I feel like if
(40:19):
you're willing to do therapy and you're willing to look
at yourself in a deeper level, it can make you
a better person and funnier because you have more trauma.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
There's this feeling that mums are good no matter what,
mums are good, and even if they do the wrong thing,
it's because they love you so much.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
If you need to accept the lie to live, then
you accept the lie right. If you would like to
reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell
us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail
dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or
(41:09):
follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. You can also
connect with me on Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To
access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the
Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.
We're grateful for your support. One way to show support
is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and
(41:31):
don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews
go a long way. A big thank you to all
of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason.
Hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
(41:53):
by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali
Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing on this episode by
Dean Welsh, mixing and mastering by Dape Saya. Additional audio
editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bain's
(42:15):
music library provided by Mybe Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts,
I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,
I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way,
there's no way. And the first thing I do is
get my phone and I probably said like I fucking
hate you or something like that. What she replies back
(00:22):
is where are you right now? Not what are you
talking about?
Speaker 2 (00:39):
I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, a show about
the people we trust the most and the deceptions that
change everything.
Speaker 1 (00:51):
I can go to a middy who I don't know.
I cry first dances with dads dead.
Speaker 2 (00:56):
That's mckentie. She's the kind of person who has a
heart exterior is a big softy on the inside.
Speaker 1 (01:03):
I'm on the floor. It's so a big baby. I
just love love.
Speaker 2 (01:08):
And she has a story unlike any we've ever heard.
It starts as the story of two sisters, Mackenzie and
her older sister who were calling Lee.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
She was my very best friend, shared a bedroom. We
would dance and sing to backsheet boys and in sync
all the time.
Speaker 2 (01:31):
As kids, Mackenzie and Lee did everything together.
Speaker 1 (01:34):
We were attached at the hip for a long time.
She used to make me come to her sleepovers because
she would get homesick, So me, as an eight year old,
would be coming along to these like cool preteen sleepovers
with all of her best friends.
Speaker 2 (01:51):
Even though Mackenzie was three years younger than.
Speaker 1 (01:54):
Lee, I was the bigger little sister, so I was
I was taller than Lee. I acted like the older sibling,
so I would take care of her.
Speaker 2 (02:04):
For a while, Mackenzie tried to be just like her
older sister.
Speaker 1 (02:08):
She had so many friends, and all of her friends
were pretty, and she had so many guy friends, and
so many guys liked her. So I just always wanted
to be in her realm to see how does she
do it? Because I couldn't figure out, for the life
of me how to connect with men. So I'm watching
her with boys. I was, oh, I gotta watch my
big sister.
Speaker 2 (02:26):
But as they grew up, Mackenzie became her own person.
Speaker 1 (02:30):
That was a comboy. I don't want to wear a dress.
I was very athletic and very good at softball. My
goal at that point was I'm going to get a
scholarship go to school in the States, and then I
wanted to try to get to the Olympics. Fifteen.
Speaker 2 (02:47):
Canada softball became McKenzie's life. Her sister played two, but
she didn't take it as seriously as Mackenzie.
Speaker 1 (02:55):
She played high level, so she had tournaments and stuff,
but she was a huge, huge party or in high school.
Speaker 2 (03:02):
Mackenzie was three years younger. They were in different stages
of their life.
Speaker 1 (03:06):
Lee's off getting drunk in a field somewhere, and I'm
the one that's like, can I have twenty dollars to do?
In the movies on Friday.
Speaker 2 (03:15):
Lee was cool, but she wasn't too cool to have
her younger sister around.
Speaker 1 (03:20):
This is my cool sister, Like she's graduated and we're
listening to Lose That by Eminem in the car in
our Toyota Echo.
Speaker 2 (03:28):
After Lee graduated from high school, she moved in with
her boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (03:33):
And then he cheated on her, so she ends up
moving back home.
Speaker 2 (03:38):
It was the early two thousands and Facebook was brand new.
Everyone was navigating social media for the first time.
Speaker 1 (03:45):
And of course Lee's pretty, so she had something up
where it's like two thousand friends, and I remember Lee
came to me and was like, Oh, I'm talking to
this guy that added me on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Lee showed Mackenzie a photo of the guy who had
reached out to her. His name was Ryan.
Speaker 1 (04:03):
He was very good looking and muscular, kind of a
buzz cut, dark eyes, really nice smile, ripped all that
kind of stuff when you're nineteen turning twenty you're looking for.
Speaker 2 (04:16):
But it wasn't just about Ryan's looks. Lee had been
sharing her writing on Facebook and he had taken the
time to read it.
Speaker 1 (04:24):
She's like, he messaged me saying he really clicked with
my poetry and he really liked it.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
It was sweet. Mackenzie looked at Ryan's Facebook profile and
noticed that they had a shared mutual friend Lee's softball
teammate Amy.
Speaker 1 (04:42):
And I was like, oh, well, did you pop Dan
me and Lee? She's like, yeah, Actually she texted me
and said, oh, how do you know Ryan? And obviously
Lee he's like, well, I don't. He had me on Facebook.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
It was re assuring for Lee to talk to somebody
that knew Ryan in real life.
Speaker 1 (05:04):
Amy's like, oh, when I was in Calgary, he was
living there and we worked together for like a year,
and he's one of my really good friends. He's such
a good guy.
Speaker 2 (05:13):
Lee and Ryan started talking. They got along really well
and would spend hours each day messaging back and forth.
Even though they lived in different cities, they found creative
ways to have long distance states. Within a few months.
Speaker 1 (05:27):
They are literally Facebook official. They both have it on
their Facebook.
Speaker 2 (05:31):
In December of two thousand and nine, Mackenzie was going
through her first real breakup. Lee encouraged Sure to get
back on the dating scene.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
Well, he's like, oh, Ryan wants to talk to you. No,
like you want to talk to me, Like, I don't know.
He says he has a cousin that you'd really like.
I'm like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2 (05:51):
Ryan reached out to McKenzie to vouch for his cousin.
Speaker 1 (05:54):
You guys would really get along. He really likes baseball,
all this kind of stuff, And I'm like, okay, if
you're vouching for him, Ryan's a great guy, so I'm
gonna listen.
Speaker 2 (06:04):
Mackenzie decided to give this guy a shot. His name
was Matt. He and Ryan both lived on the East
Coast of Canada, which was far away from the sisters.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
So it wasn't like just getting the car and drive here.
It was airplane six hoverflight hyper deal.
Speaker 2 (06:23):
After dating long distance for months, Ryan started planning his
first trip to visit Lee.
Speaker 1 (06:28):
He was supposed to come Christmas Eve. So we're looking
forward to meeting him. My parents were like okay with
him staying here. But then four days before he messages
Lee and tells her that he can't come.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
Ryan's mom had cancer and her health had started declining.
He was no longer willing to miss Christmas with her.
Speaker 1 (06:50):
Lee is beside herself. She's absolutely heartbroken because this was
going to be their first meeting.
Speaker 2 (06:57):
Ryan felt horrible for canceling the trip to He had
a special Christmas gift plan for Lee, and in order
to make sure it got to her on time, he
solicited the help of their mutual friend Amy.
Speaker 1 (07:09):
Christmas Eve rolls around and Amy shows up with this box,
hands it to Lee and it's a Bill de bear
And in the card it says, because I can't be
there and this is my replacement, like hug him and
sleep with him. So that night on she's sleeping with
this bear.
Speaker 2 (07:28):
Everything light As Lee and her boyfriend Ryan got more serious,
Mackenzie was starting to develop a crush on his cousin Matt.
He'd become a part of her daily life.
Speaker 1 (07:40):
He was always, you know, messaging me every morning, making
sure I got up and pushing me to go to
my practices and stuff like that, and then we would
we'd talk baseball because he was a Yankees fan, I'm
a Blue Jays fan, so we would kind of chirp
each other about baseball a lot.
Speaker 2 (07:56):
But Matt wanted their relationship to be deeper than just
chatting about sports.
Speaker 1 (08:01):
It just kind of slowly turned into, like him kind
of saying, I want to date you, I want to
bet with you.
Speaker 2 (08:08):
Mackenzie felt the same way, but she really wanted to
meet him in person before they made things official.
Speaker 1 (08:14):
I am very big on face to base interaction. I
need to have that connection before I can say we
can meet boyfriend and girlfriend type feel.
Speaker 2 (08:24):
Mackenzie was cautious, but Matt was really making an effort
and that meant a lot to her. Their jokes and
sports banter turned to deeper conversations and a real.
Speaker 1 (08:35):
Connection, validating my feelings and making sure I feel heard
and he would call me babe and baby and all
that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (08:44):
Matt and Ryan hung out a lot and sent the
girls photos of their adventures hiking together, spending time with family,
or just small moments in their daily routines. Their friend
Amy was happy her matchmaking skills had been such a success.
Speaker 1 (09:00):
Amy is talking with Lee sporadically, checking in on how
her and Ryan are doing and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
Plus it was kind of fun for Mackenzie and Lee
to be dating cousins.
Speaker 1 (09:15):
Me and Lee will say we're watching a movie and
then we have Matt and Ryan pressing play on the
same time.
Speaker 2 (09:22):
They'd watch rom coms together. It was sweet. But Lee
and Mackenzie were growing tired of the long distance. They
would try to plan visits with Matt and Ryan, but
it never seemed to be the right time.
Speaker 1 (09:35):
It was just always, no, you know this, my mom's
immune compromise. You can't come here. There's no place for
you to stay. Right now. I'm trying to figure out
stuff with my mom. I have classes too often, I'm
going to be working too much. I'm like, well, shit,
they have such a hard life. And then well, I'm
such a bad person for trying to put my feelings first.
Speaker 2 (09:59):
Lee, I had never had an online relationship before. It
was taking a toll on her.
Speaker 1 (10:05):
It was endless of her drinking, coming home and she's crying,
and she's coming into my bedroom and she's talking about Oh,
she's fighting with Ryan and it's her, you know, missing
shifts at work. Her friends are now very few and
far between. They don't believe that you can fall in
love with somebody over the internet. So Lee is now
(10:28):
at this point, you know, she's losing her best friend,
she's losing her friend group, the people that she usually
turns to. I'm now her best friend because I'm in
a similar circumstance.
Speaker 2 (10:39):
The whole situation brought the sisters closer together. McKenzie was
at a crossroads. She was graduating high school and thinking
about her future. Beckenzie had spent her whole life working
towards a career as a professional softball player, and now
she was debating if that was the right choice.
Speaker 1 (10:58):
I just kind of I got to the point where
I didn't want to be just that's what my identity was.
Because my identity, that's all people associated me with. Mackenzie
just plays off all that's what she does.
Speaker 2 (11:10):
So McKenzie made a hard decision. She decided not to
go to college.
Speaker 1 (11:16):
I'm not going to take any of my scholarships.
Speaker 2 (11:18):
If she wasn't in school, she would need a job.
When she was lost on what to do, Matt had
an idea.
Speaker 1 (11:26):
Matt let me know that Amy works for a construction
company and she can probably get me a job.
Speaker 2 (11:35):
Amy worked in construction and Matt did too. He told
Mackenzie more about how the industry worked.
Speaker 1 (11:41):
I was going, Yeah, that's totally at my alley, different
every day to go into different job sites and all
that kind of stuff. So I was like, yeah, forget
Matt says, hey, just give her a text and she
can probably get you a job.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
She texted Amy and submitted her resume. Two weeks later,
she was hired for the job.
Speaker 1 (11:59):
My first day, I was super nervous. Amy offered to
come on the day off, introduced me to everybody that
worked there. Day was like, Wow, she's really down to earth.
She's really chill, you know, she's a tomboy like me,
very easy to talk to, funny, that kind of stuff.
I can't believe she would go out of her way
(12:20):
to try to make me feel comfortable. That's really nice
of her. From that point on, we became best friends
pretty quickly.
Speaker 2 (12:51):
After graduating high school, Mackenzie took a job in construction
with a mutual friend named Amy. Amy had played softball
in high school with Mackenzie's sister Lee, but the sisters
also knew her through their long distance boyfriends, and over time,
mackenzie's friendship with Amy grew.
Speaker 1 (13:10):
We worked together almost every day. She'd come over to
our house a lot. She was very funny and she
was very outgoing and just easy to be around. She
would come over. We'd watched Jersey Shore every Thursday together. Jersdays,
you know this, bumps pushed up chapstick. It was best
(13:30):
and her and I like, I could just be me
and she was the same. So we fed off each other.
You just have two freaking weird people together and that's
a vibe.
Speaker 2 (13:43):
Amy never really dated anyone. When Mackenzie asked her about it,
she explained that it was because of her faith.
Speaker 1 (13:51):
She's like, I just I'm Christian and literally wearing a
purity ring like Jonah's brother's stuff, shout out to Jonah's
brothers and she but she had a cross on. She
was like, that's just how I was raised.
Speaker 2 (14:05):
But McKenzie liked sharing her love life with Amy, especially
because Amy knew her boyfriend.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
He was my kind of outlet, being like, why is
Matt being crazy today? I need you to talk to him.
We're same with Lee.
Speaker 2 (14:19):
McKenzie and Matt's relationship was steady, but Lee and Ryan
were really struggling with the distance because Ryan still hadn't
come to visit.
Speaker 1 (14:29):
Every other day. They're arguing, like, why aren't you coming here?
And you know my mom's sick, you know I was
in a car accident, you know Matt's not doing well.
It was very much telling Lee, why are you making
me feel bad when my life is in shambles and
you're supposed to be supporting me. You're supposed to be
my better half.
Speaker 2 (14:49):
For Mackenzie's nineteenth birthday, Lee and Amy decided to take
her out to a bar to celebrate, but as soon
as they got there, Lee's.
Speaker 1 (14:57):
Arguing with Ryan even on my birthday, bbming each other.
He's getting mad at her that she's drinking, saying she's
drinking too much. Amy's being super weird.
Speaker 2 (15:08):
Mackenzie chalked it up to the fact that Amy didn't drink.
Speaker 1 (15:12):
She's like, I need to leave, and I'm kind of like,
we just got here. I just had my second beer.
She had left my birthday and then the whole night,
Lee and Ryan are arguing.
Speaker 2 (15:24):
The relationship between Lee and Ryan was just plain unhealthy.
Speaker 1 (15:29):
Lee is now not going out with her friends. Her
friends didn't get the online relationship. Why she was adamant
that she had to be with this man. This was
her bl end doll. She's not leaving her room. I
can hear her crying yourself to sleep most night. I
can hear She'll send videos to him of her crying
(15:49):
and yelling and stuff like that.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Mackenzie would talk to Amy about her and Lee's relationship issues,
but often Amy would side with the guys.
Speaker 1 (15:59):
I'm at work and Amy's being weird and super angry,
and I'm like, what is wrong? I understand Ryan's your
best friend, but you don't need to involve yourself that
much into their arguments. Would be talking with Matt Men.
I would say something and it would piss him off,
and sure enough Amy's giving me the you know, the
(16:21):
cold shoulder, and it just was like this cycle of toxicity.
Speaker 2 (16:28):
Amy couldn't help but get involved in their relationships, especially
Lee and Ryan's.
Speaker 1 (16:35):
We would be on a drive and then Amy would
just turn to me and be like, so, your sister
and Ryan are fighting. And I'm like, when are they
not fighting? And She's like, yeah, what does your sister
said about Ryan? Like, what does she feel and I'm like,
she's in love with him. I don't think it really matters. Well,
(16:55):
I think it does matter. And I'm like, well, it's
not your relationships. I don't I don't understand why you're
asking this. Well, is she talking to any guys when
she goes out? And I'm like, no, I don't see it.
She's will you go with her sometimes you go to
the bars. I'm like, I don't think it matters. Amy like,
(17:17):
we're literally we're going to get we run to Sound eleven,
We're getting slur face and we're getting a two dollar
candy bag. We don't need to worry about this right now.
Speaker 2 (17:26):
It was weird how Amy would involve herself, but McKenzie
tried to ignore it. At this point in their friendship.
It was twenty ten. A documentary came out that everybody
was talking about. Ryan recommended it to Lee.
Speaker 1 (17:43):
It's called catfish, and we never heard the term.
Speaker 2 (17:47):
These days, catfishing stories feel like a part of the zeitgeist,
but back in twenty ten, this was a brand new concept.
Speaker 1 (17:56):
Facebook's fresh out the gate. We all are kind of
getting used to what's going on. Instagram's not even out yet.
You trust that everyone is who they say they are.
Speaker 2 (18:07):
McKenzie was curious about the Catfish documentary.
Speaker 1 (18:11):
I had talked to Matt, and Matt's like, yeah, I
watched it. It's a really good movie. I think it's
something you guys should watch to put your mind at ease.
Abous we have Amy then saying, oh, we can watch
it together. So now it's me Lee and Amy and
we're watching Catfish together. We're like, I couldn't even imagine
(18:33):
if that happened to us. That would be devastating. Lee
is just like, I'm so glad I found the love
of my life. I'm gonna marry and have kids with
And I'm glad he told us to watch this movie together.
I would be absolutely mortified if that ever happened to me.
I can't believe you didn't see the songs.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
At first, it was fun that Mackenzie and Lee's boyfriends
were cousins and that their best friend Amy knew the
guys too. All of her favorite people knew each other.
But as time went on, Mackenzie started to feel like
she was stuck in the middle of a complicated web.
As Lee's relationship with Ryan got worse, it became too
much drama for McKenzie.
Speaker 1 (19:12):
Lee's fighting with Ryan, and then Ryan's trying to talk
to me because he wants me to calm her down.
And then I had Matt talking to me saying, this
is really bad for Lee and Ryan. You need to help.
And then I have freaking Amy also being like Ryan
told me they're fighting, and I'm like, I can't do
(19:32):
this anymore.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
So in January of twenty eleven, Mackenzie broke up with Matt.
She told Lee that she needed space from the whole situation,
especially her sister's toxic relationship.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
When I stopped talking to Matt, I think that was
really really hard on her because at this point I
just can't listen to it, and so now you know
she's alone in this.
Speaker 2 (19:59):
Essentially, Mackenzie saw the damage that Lee's relationship with Ryan
was causing. She hardly recognized her vibrant, outgoing older sister.
Speaker 1 (20:10):
It just progressively was just her shutting herself off from
the rest of the world. You can see her just deteriorating.
She got really, really, really skinny, and it just was, Yeah,
it's heartbreaking.
Speaker 2 (20:26):
McKenzie wasn't in a rush to be in another relationship.
Matt on the other hand, we did no time finding
a new girlfriend.
Speaker 1 (20:35):
One of my best friends approached me and she said, Hey,
I just want to let you know that Matt has
messaged me and are you okay if we start talking?
And I was like, you know what, girl, do you
want that freaking bag of worms? You want all that drama?
All the power to you, sister. So they started talking.
Speaker 2 (20:54):
But after a few months, Mackenzie's friend noticed something weird
about her conversation with Matt.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
She brought up the fact that when her and Amy
hang out and she would text Matt, it seemed like
Amy's boone was going off. It would vibrate when he
was messaging Matt. I kind of brushed it off, I said, honestly,
(21:22):
I think it might just be a coincidence. Her and
Matt and Ryan are always talking. Amy's also always talking
to me. It's probably just that kind of thing. And
she's a gay right.
Speaker 2 (21:34):
But later that night, dalt started to creep into Mackenzie's
mind for the first time, she let herself consider the
question what if Matt and Ryan weren't real? As she
thought back on their relationship, little details that seemed like
nothing at the time all started to add.
Speaker 1 (21:55):
Up, all the gifts we've gotten are hand given to
us from Amy, never in the mail, never got an address.
And then I had a blanket was handmade from Matt,
and Amy has the same exact handmade blanket that she
(22:15):
made Matt and Ryan also worked for a construction company
that is exactly the same as what Amy and I did.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
Finally, it all clicked.
Speaker 1 (22:26):
I just was like, Yeah, I think Amy is Matt.
Speaker 2 (22:30):
Could this be true? Were the sisters talking to Amy
the entire time? Could Amy have invented not one, but
two fake boyfriends. Mackenzie needed proof.
Speaker 1 (22:43):
Now Mackenzie is a detective and I am all over this.
Speaker 2 (22:49):
Mackenzie knew that Ryan would often send Lee photos of
the construction sites he worked at.
Speaker 1 (22:55):
I ended up messaging Lee and I said, if he
sends you any photos of job sites at, please send
them to me.
Speaker 2 (23:04):
Ryan worked in construction all the way across the country
in eastern Canada. If he was really who he said
he was, Mackenzie should have no way of recognizing the sites.
But if it was really Amy, this could be Mackenzie's
chance to catch her in a lie. And finally she
(23:24):
got a clue. Lee forwarded a photo Ryan had sent her.
He said it was from one of his.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Work sites, and it's this picture of this really really
high end bar of a really really nice house. The
light pictures super unique. You'll never see it in any
other type of house. I textedly and I said, oh,
did Ryan send you this today? And she goes, oh, yeah,
he just sent it to me. He said he wants
to put that in our house. He's going to build
(23:53):
it for me. And so what I do is I
take that photo. And there's one person that I work
with and I told my suspicions of and so I
emailed it to her and I said, you're working with
Amy today? Is this the site you're at? And my
coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I saw
(24:18):
Amy sit down take a photo of that light fixture
and talk about how much she liked it and how
she wants it in her future house.
Speaker 2 (24:24):
One day, McKenzie suspected her friend Amy might be catfishing
(24:49):
both her and her sister Lee. One day, her sister's
boyfriend sent her a photo of a light fixture and
said he wanted it to be in their future house.
One day, McKenzie texted her coworker who was working on
site with Amy, and asked if the photo looked familiar, and.
Speaker 1 (25:08):
My coworker sends me back, I'm so sorry, Mackenzie. I
saw Amy sit down, take a photo of that light
fixture and talk about how much she liked it and
how she wants it in her future house.
Speaker 2 (25:23):
One day, Mackenzie was mad.
Speaker 1 (25:26):
I literally just saw red. I started crying and kept saying,
I can't believe it. I can't believe it. There's no way.
Speaker 2 (25:39):
She grabs her phone and texted Amy.
Speaker 1 (25:42):
I said, I can't believe you could watch my sister
all into this deep depression for two years, lose all
of her friends.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
Amy responded right away.
Speaker 1 (25:53):
What she replies back is where are you right now?
I'm coming to see you. I'm like, oh no, no, but
I don't want to see you.
Speaker 2 (26:03):
Next, Mackenzie called her sister. She had to break the
news that her boyfriend, who she had been in love
with for years, was actually their friend Amy hiding behind
a screen.
Speaker 1 (26:15):
I called Lee right away and I told her. And
when we got home and I was telling my parents,
Lee was basically just sitting on the couch, not really
having a reaction. And she's like, no, I'm talking. I'm
(26:36):
talking with Ryan. He's real. Maybe Matt's her, but Ryan's real.
Speaker 2 (26:40):
Mackenzie was stunned. She was not prepared for this reaction.
Speaker 1 (26:44):
And I'm like, Lee, what are you talking about? It's
all here, it does you can't have Matt without the
other that like, what do you mean? I was so
mad because I'm giving you the reasoning of why we
haven't seen these people.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Finally, they had answers, but Lee didn't want to hear them.
Speaker 1 (27:03):
Nobody could say anything to her. She'd be like, no,
that's just not true because she was so infatuated in
love with this man. They've talked about their wedding, they
have their names of their kids picked out.
Speaker 2 (27:18):
Lee felt so far away. Nothing Mackenzie said seemed to
reach her. She was used to sharing everything with her
older sister. Lee was the only person who understood every
inch of her world, but in that moment, it felt
like they were on different planets, which.
Speaker 1 (27:35):
Kind of began the deterioration of our friendship me and
my sister. Was how angry I was and how she
continued to believe that this individual was a real person.
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Mackenzie knew that in order for her sister. To come
to terms with the truth, Lee would need to hear
it from me herself, so they decided to confront Amy
at her home.
Speaker 1 (28:04):
Amy wouldn't come out of the house. We met with
her mom, and her mom had no idea who Matt
Ryan are, even though she said that Matt Ryan know
her mom and all this stuff. Amy finally came out
(28:25):
after half an hour and said that Matt isn't real.
Matt is my friend Sam, but Ryan is real. Looks
Lee straightly. I swear to you he is real. I've
touched him.
Speaker 2 (28:44):
Mackenzie was fuming. Amy had spent years tricking her and
her sister into falling in love with guys that didn't exist.
She had controlled their lives, manipulated their emotions, cause Lee's
health to deteriorate, and now when they had proof of
her betrayal, she was still standing in front of them
(29:06):
and denying it.
Speaker 1 (29:07):
I looked at Amy and I said, so, your friend
Sam started talking to me as a joke and she
said yeah. I said, and you knew he was talking
to me as a joke and she said yes, And
I'm like, and you knew I was going through depression
and getting diagnosed with anxiety. And she said yes, And
I said, and you thought that would be funny? And
(29:31):
she said, well, I didn't know you. And I said
I even if I didn't know you, I wouldn't allow
someone to do that to you.
Speaker 2 (29:37):
Mackenzie gave Amy one last chance to tell the full truth.
Speaker 1 (29:40):
I asked her, I want you to look me in
the eye and tell me that Ryan is real. And
Amy looked me in the eye and said yes. And
that day I basically walked out of her house and.
Speaker 3 (29:54):
I said to Lee that if she ever admits us
one day, she had her chance to tell us, like, she's.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
In love with you, Lee. And Lee's like, you know, Mackenzie,
if he told you Matt isn't real at somebody else,
So just get over it. No, Ryan's real.
Speaker 2 (30:18):
Lee's response was devastating.
Speaker 1 (30:21):
I found out months later, six months later that she
was still talking with Ryan after she told me she wasn't.
And I just want to pick her up and shake her.
I'm like, how can you not see this?
Speaker 2 (30:34):
Mackenzie and her parents went to the police, hoping that
they could do something to stop Amy.
Speaker 1 (30:40):
We saw an officer and basically it was just are
they using like SIN numbers, which is social insurance numbers.
It's like no, it's like, well, they're not technically feeling
an identity, they're just using their photos, so it's not
a crime. And my parents were just like, well, she's
(31:00):
going to keep doing this. She's obviously going to keep
talking to people and hurting people's lives and you know,
and they're like, all we can say is like, don't
add people you don't know, and don't talk to them.
Speaker 2 (31:15):
Shortly after that, Lee moved to Toronto.
Speaker 1 (31:18):
Basically she ran away.
Speaker 2 (31:21):
To this day, Lee's never admitted that Ryan wasn't real.
Speaker 1 (31:26):
In reality, Lee fell in love. You want to choose
to believe that the people that you end up loving
are good, and choosing to believe it is easier than
accepting the fact that you've been talking to somebody who
is not real for the past three years, who you've
fallen in love with, who's actually a woman, who you
(31:48):
may or may not have sent pictures and other text messages.
Speaker 2 (31:54):
What was especially disturbing was that the betrayal wasn't committed
at random or by a stream. The person that did
this was Mackenzie's best friend.
Speaker 1 (32:05):
This was somebody who was in my house every single day,
somebody who I told all my secrets about, you know,
like I told her how I felt with men and
my insecurities and I had intimacy issues with men, and
I was afraid of whatever, and so she knows all this.
Speaker 2 (32:22):
Mackenzie felt so alone. The only person that could possibly
understand what she was going through was refusing to talk
about it.
Speaker 1 (32:32):
Trying to talk with my sister. I wanted to talk
about it, and she wanted to put it in a
pretty box and put it in the closet. I'm your
little sister. We're supposed to be best friends. You're supposed
to help me, You're supposed to help each other, and
instead you ran away and you chose to not talk
(32:52):
about it.
Speaker 2 (32:54):
Amy caused long lasting damage to Lee and the sister's friendship.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
You watch the person who idolized so much, and after
everything kind of happened, it was she just wasn't Lee anymore.
I was mad at her for a very long time.
Now we're better, obviously, but we're just not the same.
We're just our friendship. That relationship hasn't been the same
(33:24):
since everything happened.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Mackenzie reached out for support and started going to therapy.
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I needed that help because I was angry. I was
trying to desensitize myself from this story and put together
what the hell just happened.
Speaker 2 (33:42):
Looking back now, Mackenzie can see why Amy's catfishing was
so convincing. She had created two characters, Matt and Ryan,
who were always confirming each other's stories. If one of
them said they were hiking, the girls would get sent
photos of Matt and Ryan together on a hike, just
like said. There was no reason to doubt it because
(34:03):
the idea of creating a scheme with multiple fake people
seemed so far fetched.
Speaker 1 (34:08):
Once Matt was brought into it, it made it seem
more real. That's too many people who, you know what
I mean. I don't know how to explain that.
Speaker 2 (34:20):
Mackenzie never found out who the guys and the photos were,
but she suspects that they were real cousins or even
brothers who had public social media profiles, and Amy must
have been stealing their pictures without their knowledge.
Speaker 1 (34:34):
I still have photos of them. I've reversed. I whige
searched all of them, and I can't find anything.
Speaker 2 (34:42):
Amy introduced these characters at a time when both Lee
and Mackenzie really needed someone to talk to.
Speaker 1 (34:50):
Matt Ryan started talking to both of us in a
very vulnerable time. Lee is very heartbroken from her previous
relationship being cheated on. I'm in kind of the same boat,
but also I'm going through depression and anxiety and I
obviously don't know how to wrap my head around that.
Speaker 2 (35:10):
But this story doesn't end here, because ten years later,
the sisters both found ways move forward and heal. Lee
eventually built the life she'd always dreamed of.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Lee's doing great. She meets a guy. She has two
little kids now, little boy and a little girl, and
they are absolutely adorable and I love them so very much.
She's thriving as a mom, and her husband is one
of my favorite people of all time. He's hilarious.
Speaker 2 (35:39):
And Mackenzie build a life she genuinely loved too. It
started when she realized she liked girls.
Speaker 1 (35:47):
It was like, yeah, okay, I've never actually kissed a
girl before kissed her and then I remember being like,
uh oh, that's what it's supposed to feel like.
Speaker 2 (35:58):
She finally fell authentically herself.
Speaker 1 (36:02):
It was the opening of Okay, I can be me now.
I had my first girlfriend, fell in love. Then we
fast forward to twenty twenty three. I'm out living my
best life and my friend from back When Everything Happens
sends me a DM on Instagram.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
Mackenzie was surprised to hear from her. She opened the message.
Speaker 1 (36:30):
Just basically saying, hey, you know, I know we don't
talk anymore, but I watched all your pictures and your
videos and I'm just so proud of you. You look
so happy. And I just said, oh, that's great. Hope
you're doing well, and she goes, I actually messaged you
because I got a message from Amy. A couple weeks ago.
Speaker 2 (36:53):
Amy had reached out to Mackenzie's friend with a voice
memo confession. Mackenzie's friend send her the file and.
Speaker 1 (37:00):
I play it and I hear Amy's voice and she
says it was me. It was always me. I did it.
I'm sorry, and then she says, I was struggling with
internalized homophobia and that's why I did the things I did.
(37:27):
I just was like, are you joking.
Speaker 2 (37:31):
Internalized homophobia is when society's homophobia causes a queer person
to feel shame, guilt, or even self hatred about their
own identity. Amy was essentially saying that she had created
fake straight relationships with the sisters because she didn't feel
like she could come out as gay and be herself.
At the time, Mackenzie knew how harmful internalized homophobia could
(37:55):
be because she experienced it herself for years, but it
wasn't an excuse to catfish and harm people.
Speaker 1 (38:03):
You're giving yourself an out to explain the shitty things
you did. I'm not going to my friend's house pretending
to be other people. I'm not manipulating other people into,
you know, doing X, Y and Z. I'm not gaslighting
people into talking to these people that aren't real. I'm
(38:25):
not sleeping over at my friend's house trying to cuddle
them in the night while they're talking to this big
person that's actually me. No, I barely have a friendship
with my sister, and it's all because of what she
decided to do for three years.
Speaker 2 (38:50):
Amy's apology didn't feel genuine.
Speaker 1 (38:53):
She did this because she wanted to. She did this
because she likes to manipulate. She did this because she
likes the control. She took advantage of young girls that
had just broken up with their significant others that were
vulnerable and prayed upon them. We've all moved on and
(39:13):
that whole apology. You're doing it to see if you
can still affect our lives. You want to see if
you still have that hold.
Speaker 2 (39:23):
In the end, Amy has to live with what she did,
but she doesn't have power over Mackenzie and Lee anymore.
Mackenzie has moved on. She processed Amy's betrayal, but she
didn't let it paralyze her. She hasn't stopped trusting people.
Speaker 1 (39:39):
When I love, I love with all of me. I
don't hold back. I don't hide the fact that I
am an emotional person. I'm a great friend. I think
I'm a great sister. I think you know. I just
love people, good people.
Speaker 2 (39:51):
We end every weekly episode with the same question, why
do you want to share your story?
Speaker 1 (39:57):
I chose to write in because everybody's on socially, Yeah,
everybody has a phone. Betrayal can be on so many
different levels, and I want people to know that regardless
of the betrayal you go through. I feel like if
(40:19):
you're willing to do therapy and you're willing to look
at yourself in a deeper level, it can make you
a better person and funnier because you have more trauma.
Speaker 2 (40:34):
On the next episode of Betrayal Weekly.
Speaker 1 (40:37):
There's this feeling that mums are good no matter what,
mums are good, and even if they do the wrong thing,
it's because they love you so much.
Speaker 2 (40:48):
If you need to accept the lie to live, then
you accept the lie right. If you would like to
reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell
us your betrayal story, email us at Betrayalpod at gmail
dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at gmail dot com, or
(41:09):
follow us on Instagram at Betrayal Pod. You can also
connect with me on Instagram at It's Andrea Gunning. To
access our newsletter, view additional content, and connect with the
Betrayal community, join our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com.
We're grateful for your support. One way to show support
is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and
(41:31):
don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews
go a long way. A big thank you to all
of our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts,
a division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.
The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason.
Hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced
(41:53):
by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboard, also produced by Ben Fetterman.
Casting support from Curry Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali
Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio editing on this episode by
Dean Welsh, mixing and mastering by Dape Saya. Additional audio
editing by Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bain's
(42:15):
music library provided by Mybe Music and For more podcasts
from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever
you get your podcasts,
Host
Andrea Gunning
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