May 21, 2025 • 43 mins
In this episode, Ed Zitron is joined by Dan Ryckert, Jeff Bakalar and Jeff Grubb, the new owners of gaming website Giant Bomb, to talk about the hopeful, independent future for games journalism - and media at large.
http://www.giantbomb.com/join
Dan Ryckert: https://bsky.app/profile/danryckert.com
Jeff Grubb: https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:bdacp2cmuuyawx553cv2spdy
Jeff Bakalar: https://bsky.app/profile/did:plc:tyuqlcnoqijzqor53ka2a7o2
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:02):
Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed zitron.
As a reminder, you can now by shirts, hoodies, and
even mugs in our merchandise store. There's a link in
the notes. God damn it, give me money. I need
(00:27):
you to wear the shirt.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
For me today.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm joined by the new owners of gaming site Giant Bomb,
Jeff Backlar, Jeff grub and Dan Reikert Fellas. Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It's pronounce fair trying, okay, all right, yeah, okay, I'll speak.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I definitely on an interview a few days ago, miss
said my own name and miss said better I was
like a better off ship. And Matt Sawski, my producer,
regularly hears these things, so that's always fun. But congratulations,
by the way, So walk me through, Dan, perhaps walk
me through what happened. So there was some filing in
(01:02):
and out from Giant Bomb, and then you guys kind
of took it over.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Yeah, so's I started the longest ago in like twenty fourteen.
So in terms of how the recent stuff went down,
I think the jeffs here Fellaws tell me if I'm wrong.
I feel like you maybe have had some more time
on the phone lawyer.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
I like watching this guy sweat.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Let's exactly.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I just wanted to make sure I didn't I'm not like,
oh yeah, this work. You know, It's like I just
kind of fell into this. No, Jeff and Jeff left Fandom,
our previous parent company, and as part of the deal,
were able to buy Giant Bomb and are bringing in
you know, me Jana Choa or longtime producer and our
(01:46):
good friend Mike Manatti who has been trying to be
full time at Giant Bomb for a long time and
he completely skipped full time and went straight from contractor
to co owner.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Of the websites.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Yes, yes, so yeah, long history of corporate ownership and
you know, digging back to two thousand and eight and
you know, four different owners basically, and now I guess
we are the fifth group.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Nice, So what is the new structure? So you guys
are all the owners, You're going to be doing the
same kind of games journalism you're already doing. I know
that the YouTube channel went offline. Is it coming back?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, we were streaming of YouTube just right before we
came here. Yeah, we were doing our black club shows.
So right now the structure looks like are we getting
all the stuff from fandom that we need and they've
been very helpful and that stuff. But it's like just
kind of getting the keys to everything. And then there
is a whole other process of us getting a business
started because this wasn't like us necessarily buying the business.
(02:42):
We bought a lot of assets, so we have to
start our own business to sort of take these things
on and make it make sense. So in parallel, while
we were goofing off, well, Mike was playing Rascal for
the PlayStation one for our game for our show where
we played bad Games Backlar was still working in the
background making sure that we'll have a bank account and
stuff like that. But as far as like the overall
(03:03):
idea of what this company looks like, yeah, it's gonna
be us kind of taking it on all on ourselves,
kind of splitting it up evenly amongst us and just
getting to work and investing in our time and seeing
a payoff because now it's all on us.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's weird as well, because it's like both one of
the most depressing times in games journalism history, I'm one
of the most encouraging because the amount of layoffs are horrifying,
but you and Atamath have really come out of well,
I don't want to say nowhere, because it's been quite
public and chaotic. You kind of seem to be building
a new model for journalism writ large.
Speaker 7 (03:38):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think like the thing that the
lesson everyone learned they learned like ten years ago, where
the sort of like contemporary understanding of games media or
really any media you know that covers some sort of
entertainment is probably not compatible with what a corporation would
(03:59):
need out of that in terms of like revenue expectations
and just you know, filing in in a way that
makes sense.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
And that's fine.
Speaker 7 (04:08):
And I think you know what this with the with
the Aftermath Experiment and all these other sort of independent
journalistic entities have sort of shown is that this can
work with a private sort of consideration of ownership as
opposed to you know, just having it be another asset
in the corporate media portfolio. Right that, And I think
(04:31):
the value that these types of entities present make a
lot more sense right under the guise of private ownership
than they do, you know, under the umbrella.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So kind of yeah, it kind of feels as well
like games journalism gets pulled in very hard by these
big private equity. I'm not specifically referring to any of them,
just to be clear, these large entities by them because
I imagine they're traffic drivers, and there's always news and
there's always kind of such traffic coming in games and.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Guides and stuff like that. These things have been honed
to be SEO, you know, sort of machines for a
long time. The people who've been in charge of them
have once understood that to be very important. Now, of course,
like Google has made things very complicated for a lot
of sites that built their sites in one way and
now they have to shift and no one really understands
the way the winds are blowing. But yeah, that traffic
(05:22):
means something to someone for sure, and that's why you
see something like a polygon becoming the target of a vow.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Now.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I guess the public understanding is bound Net approached Vox
Media about polygon, and I asked them about it like
some time ago, and have been trying to make this
happen since then. Vox wasn't necessarily shopping around, but it
became the target of that because it does have this traffic.
It has this built in if you search for something,
there's a good chance Polygon is going to serve it
to you in the video game space. And yeah, so
(05:50):
these kind of equity firms they spot this and they
want to extract that value. It means bad things for
the actual people working at these sites almost universally every time.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And that's why this.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Other model of us coming and being like we're gonna
own it ourselves and we're gonna have a direct relationship
with the with the audience.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That kind of is the only ground to retreat to
at this point.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
We are either going to keep having this stuff because
we're all in it together, as hopy as that sounds,
or we're just not gonna have it at all.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Those are the options now.
Speaker 7 (06:19):
Yeah, it's also I think it's important to call out that, like,
there does exist a type of person that I think
we all sort of slot into in this goldilock zone
that has sat on both sides of the sort of
influential divide, where you know, we all began our careers
in a very kind of like I don't maybe not
(06:39):
antiquated is not the right word, but certainly a traditional
sort of like media and and and publisher relationship into
the relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I worked I work CVG.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
Yeah, yeah, and let's be honest, we're not that old, right,
Like we're you know, we're as young exactly. We see,
maybe we we sit in this very weird sort of
like like I said, this Goldilocks zone where we're like,
we understand what came before, what happened during, and now
what's after. And I think that very uniquely positions a
(07:14):
small slice of sort of institutional knowledge right where where
you can kind of like leverage that in a way
that not a lot of people have that sort of
insight from both sides of the fence.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
And that goes back to you know, the founding of
Giant Bomb in two thousand and eight, because it was
four guys that broke off from game Spot, you know,
more traditional web based gaming media and formed this very
personality focused thing, you know, like kind of in the
early days of YouTube gaming personalities and things like that.
But it did come from that, yeah, institutional knowledge, people
that had worked you know, et threes dating back to
the nineties and things like that. It wasn't just you know,
(07:46):
some kids that started youtubing and getting big. It kind
of straddled the line from the beginning.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I met one of the saddest things to me was
watching PC zone collapse. It was the magazine I worked to,
the Games and Magazina worked to in England, and in
a different, different time, I think they would have come together,
we would have come together and done something. But two
thousand and eight was when that happened. I was moving
to America as well, but that was Future publishing Bolton
fuck Future, yeah shit, yeah, well they're gonna do to me, And.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
They repeatedly kind of do that stuff to people say yeah,
fuck for real real quick on that. Like I remember thinking,
like back when that was happening in two thousand and eight,
when e GM and one Up was collapsing, It's like
it had the one Up Yours podcast kind of lasted
a few more years. They all could have easily just
transitioned that into a podcast with ads for one thing,
(08:34):
and then a direct to customer supported a way of
doing things on the other hand, and that really would
have taken off for them. Instead, they this guy's had
to go kind of filter into working in the corporate
side for making games.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
The problem is with podcasts is, as you well know,
like monetizing them is very difficult. I mean, people complain
about the ads here being on the iHeart Radio. I
mean it works great because cool Zone Media and I
Heart leaves us alone fairly, but people complain about the ads.
It's like, have you tried starting a fucking podcast? Isn't cheap,
So it's it's just a frustrating but great time because
after Mask's doing really interesting stuff that I feel is
(09:07):
going to be I feel like Giant Bumb's gonna be
very like classic gamer stuff, like creative but still very
much about the games, and Aftermath is doing that plus
what would have been called derisively new games journalism. Mm hmm,
way back when do you remember that fellas? Yeah, new
games I remember that. I remember when people were talking
about that.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Let's talk about that loudu narrative dissonance.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Yeah, fuck, like the start of Polygon press reset type stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, well, explain that for the listeners because it sucks,
but they should know.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You talk about that, the Polygon thing or.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Go ahead, dan Oh, it's just like games media going
back to like you know, EGM and Game in Former,
like the magazines of the nineties, to like the early
you know, web based ign games by stuff. It was
just you know, we we were repairing press releases, and
it's like news stories were basically like there's a new
box art for Assassin screen.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Game have, Yeah, yeah, exactly, You're getting.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
More levels this time, like that type of stuff. So
it's like that's why I even back when I started
never considering myself a journalist, because I realized it's just like, Okay,
I'm just kind of reporting on silly things here and
giving a score to a game and things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I think that there's something marvelous about that with games journalism.
It's the way there's because I don't they'll write and
geta especially over there is written like very long form,
thoughtful emotional pieces. I think that that's what's I want
to say missing because it's happening. But that's what makes
game journalism great. You can have stuff. It was just
like I played something. It's stunked to shit. It made
me angry, I want to kill someone, but I love
(10:37):
it because it's got this one tiny like there was.
I remember reviewing a game zone the sky Fall movie,
tying game activision remarkably tight Gears of Wark Loan and
remember being like, this sucks, but I love it. That's
great for gaming as well. But then the very deep
emotional stuff, and I think that it's what lends itself
(10:58):
to exactly what you're doing, which is this kind of
let's get together, let's make something about all Halpy and
our job and whatever, and the in between pot can
be Giant bomb.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I think there's very much room for both because I remember,
like when Polygon was starting in like you know, probably
like the twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen whenever that was, and
they were very much, you know, banging the drum of
like we are doing serious games journalism and telling human
stories and it's gonna be this emotional, deep stuff. And
I remember looking at that and be like, I don't
know how the fuck to do that. If I can
tell you if never did, is any good? You know?
(11:30):
Like so, but I think there's a room for both
because like someone like me broke in because I wanted
to work with a bunch of dorks and talk about
video games and now make videos about video games. But
then there are there are important stories to tell. And
I think, you know, to give Grub some credit here,
I think Grub might be the best I've ever seen
at balancing both, Like he does the daily news show
on Giant bomb dot com and we'll cover the serious
(11:51):
stuff in layoffs and just kind of issues facing the industry.
But then he'll also you know, dress up like Bubbsy
and play Bubzy three D for Blake Club, you know.
So I do think Grubb is uniquely qualified to do
both ends of that.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, and I enjoy in both.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I definitely remember growing up in like reading EGM or
Game Players and being like, man, the people who are
in this magazine, they have a lot of personality and
they clearly fill every page with that, and I like
know these people by name. Now I kind of know
what they're into, and I built a real connection with them,
and then you know that then that would actually lead
me into some of their real reporting on stuff that
(12:26):
mattered to them, especially in EGM and then like Next
Gen Magazine later, And I just remember like really enjoying
both sides of that.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
A lot of games are.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Silly and stupid and wouldn't be fun if we took
that seriously, and I really enjoyed that aspect.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Of my job.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, And CVG used to have this kind of yellow
it was. I don't know if you ever physically read
an issue of Computer Video Against magazine it's original, but
they had this middle section that was in like almost
like yellow Pages style and it was just rambling shit.
It was beautiful. It's like games. Genuinely, I was blues
off like two years ago, and like games were the
(13:02):
one thing that I could bond with people over because
it didn't require you to be anyone, Like I played
a shit ton of EverQuest I was. I think it
was one of the first momo like real Remmo reports
in England, Ollie Welsh as well Legend Sure yeah, Shah Sally.
But it's like and one of the leftover Polygon people.
It's just what pisses me off about all of this
(13:22):
as well, is it doesn't seem that hard to run
a games journalism out let. Well, you just don't hire
so many people and make them do eleven stories a day.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I mean, the real sad thing with Polygon is they
didn't make any of those mistakes when people saw the
layoffs snow like, oh that's a lot of people. It's
like they were successful and profitable and could have kept growing,
but they had a very sort of like moderate take
on Okay, yeah we could, but let's just keep all
this sustainable and a lot of that goes down to
the leadership of Chris Plant, who I just admire so much.
(13:55):
Is he's got such a good head on his shoulders,
and it just filtered all the way down through Polygon.
So it's like they were doing it right, and even
voxers are letting them do it right. It's just like,
even when that happens, you there's that buds and buzz
saw that's going to show up and be like, we're
gonna rip this thing apart and find a way to
make more money.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Fronament, So here's some money.
Speaker 9 (14:13):
It's fucking books. I didn't know they were profitable. Yeah,
it's so infuriated. It was a successful business, I think.
Is not how I would phrase it.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's so fucking stupid because I feel like these outlets
could on some level, maybe not a ton print money,
but they there are tons of gamers who love reading stuff.
Sure like it sounds like Publican had a sustainable operation.
IGN is insane. I don't know, I do. I don't
know how many people work. Ign Igen breaks on my phone.
(14:52):
I don't know. If you've tried to look at nign guide.
Sometimes if you scroll too fast, it just goes not
sorry mate.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Yeah, I mean, I know that so many sites now
could be.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Your own.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Yeah. Yeah, it just goes to the top or pops
up the thing and the accident and clicked the wrong thing. Yeah,
I hate that.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, the Internet sucks.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Now really this is as much.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
As is show about that.
Speaker 7 (15:15):
But a lot of those a lot of those sites
are are not there's there's it's tough to really say
that they all have agency in a way that you want, right,
And I think everything becomes this Frankensteinian creation of like
uh uh, you know, sort of meshing it with other
properties that sit alongside as sister companies, and you're just
(15:36):
never going to have that organic uh feeling.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
I do think you're right.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I think the Polygon example is good because it was
sort of like the semblance of like, oh this does
feel sort of vacuum sealed off in a way that
that works, and everyone there, you know, really doing a
tremendous job. But for the most part, whenever you see
a lot of these massive, behemoth legacy media sites, they
are just the is you know, a vultron creation that
(16:05):
doesn't really allow for that amount of agency that you know,
I think the spirit of all those sites wants to.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Be Yeah, and I think the like I've said earlier,
that kind of the obvious victim of any kind of
acquisition partner, because it's just you can turn them into
a slop shop and the immediately killed them, immediately killed them.
Speaker 7 (16:23):
Right, And that's what the Internet's allowed for, right, And
I know that's like, that's what I read what you say,
like you you always have it spot on at is
like that is like we are just sort of like
willfully watching the death of everything and calling it out
and just being like, yeah, that's the that's the next
ship that came into the harbor filled with ghosts, and
(16:45):
we're just gonna watch it continue on its way down
to its next port of call.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
And that's it. It's just this parade of dead websites
and dead Internet.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
And you're familiar, familiar with the Tony Oaks pro skater games, right,
So I was watching I was trying to read story
on Kataka the other day.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I can't remember what it was about, but it did.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
It took me to a video instead, and there was
a man talking over the video and he kept calling
it thhps, thhps, and I'm like, I don't think i've
ever heard anyone say that before, and then it's like, oh,
I I'm listening to an AI voice. Of course I am,
of course interesting, yes, because he did it every time
in the same thhps thhps.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Yeah, no one says that.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
No one said that, So I'm just like, that's of course,
that's they all think they're going to be able to
do that. That's the story we're gonna have to keep
telling over and over about what's happening with all these
websites and these equity firms coming in here.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And I mean, of course I get turned off.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I think most of the audience probably does get turned
off when they experienced that, right, because the one thing
about games and Stephen Spahn, who is an accessibility expert
in the space, he used to tell me like, why
why do I want to play video games?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
He's like, it's a currency.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It's a social currency where I play something that I
get to talk to someone else about it and we
get to share something.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We have a connection.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I mean, you said the one thing you could bond
over with people these video games. I think we all
get that at the very fundamental level. And so these
corporations trying to find a way to take that out
of there so they could save some money is obviously
just going to blow up in their faces.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They just don't know why. Am Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And I actually think it could go the other way though,
which is as we get more independent gaming outlets. I
think that there could be real success there because I
think that that's what people want to like. There is
definitely a degree of hunger for when is a game
coming out, in the same way that people google when
the super Bowls come in. Of course, when the super
Bowls coming out. When the super Bowl's happening, there we go.
(18:31):
I do watch sports that did the super Bowl episode,
but it I think the no one actually reads these
outlets just to learn that they want a gamer who
has played a shit ton of games, who has a
good voice to say I like this or I'm worried
about this. And I think the worst of games journalism
has been when that's been dragged out of it. And
even when like we were doing these very early days
(18:52):
of the website for CVG, when we'd have to write
shit and just be like, this game's coming out, it's
going to be like this, And I say, we weren't
allowed to have character, but it definitely wasn't encouraged, which
is strange because the CBG mag was always so rude.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
It was it was it was utility.
Speaker 7 (19:08):
You were doing utility work, right as opposed to personality work.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
That's kind of how it works with like the old
preview system with magazines is because like you weren't supposed
to since the game wasn't out yet, you know. But
I remember I went to like an Xbox One pre
launch event thing and I played Rise Son of Rome.
Oh remember, was just thinking it was like I think
the headline I used was like, oh, it's as fun
as dialing a phone number because it's just like waiting
for something to turn red. Then he pressed the red button.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Then it just sucks, calling it Microsoft snack.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Yeah, So I wrote that, and it was like it
had a negative tone, and the game was about to
come out in like three weeks, and it's like and
I kind of said, like, this seems like it might
suck in the preview, and I remember like both like
comments and stuff and people at work being like, well,
WHOA can't have this much like opinion in a preview.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's like I think I can.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
This is gonna kind of suck, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, there's no no rules there.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I remember when Mark McDonald over at EGM said he
played two Human and said it's gonna be terrible, and
Dennis Diak like insisted on coming on their podcast and
talking to him about it, and like scolded him and said,
you're gonna regret everything you said when you played the
final version.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Were rude of the day that you insulted to humans.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I don't think he ruled anything Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But this is even this conversation is what is fun
about games journalism because even a shit game, you have
the kind of horse trading like shit.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Do you remember that terrible preview?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I I do genuinely miss this about games journalism, like
it's the one. It's probably I miss it more than
the writing about the games, because backupece he's done. We
had like logs, Steve Hogerty Will Porter, we had all
sorts of like fun other people like Ryan, all the
people from the mag who just yell at you. And
I think that and actually I'm curious your thoughts about this.
(20:54):
I think what this industry also needs to do is
rebuild the solidarity because it was quite There was quite
a lot of it in two thousand and eight. It
feels like it's kind of drifted, and I feel like
that it's something in tech media I want to do too.
I want people to come back together and realize it
really is us versus them.
Speaker 7 (21:10):
Then yes, well, I'm curious to hear where you think
like the friction primarily lies.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think what it is is that so many people
have been hired, fired, hired fired, so many people have
left games journalism, gone into pr and then the people
that own these companies have stopped even being the classic
like Fortune as Fortune Future or Dennis Publishing. It's the people.
So you've always had ign as this kind of thing
(21:36):
over here, this juggernaut, and then remote work to an
extent as well, has done it too. It's just there's
less events when people are meeting. I don't even know
how we fix this, but it's something that I'm very
big in tech media at least, trying to bring people
together and be like, hey, look, it is really us
versus the largest corporations in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I mean, that's absolutely been my primary thought that pops
in my head throughout this entire experience, is we really
are in this together, and that I mean, when I
say us that we're in this together, I am thinking
about the other people who are in this creator driven space.
So kind of Funny's been super supportive and helping us
out and giving us pointers and stuff like that. The
guys over at next Lander have been pointing out Dan
(22:16):
was on Jeff Gersman's show yesterday. It's like we did
realize pretty quickly when Greg Miller did take that team
kind of Funny to go independent that there isn't that
real competition, like there the more people that care about
the kinds of the ways that we talk about video games,
the better for everybody. And people can bounce around between
these various sites that have a slightly slightly different take
(22:39):
on it, so we keep growing that space. It's good
for everyone. So how do we turn that into something?
And it's like, definitely, I'm coming into it with I'm
gonna like reference a book that I haven't read yet,
but I saw the interview.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
On Gailey Do the Daily Show. I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I'm probably gonna I'm probably gonna misrepresent it. But it
was like moral ambition was the name of the book,
and it was this idea of you should in the
system that we have have ambition to try to do
big things, cool things, try to go make money. That's fine,
But when confronted with a fork in the road about hey,
I could do this or I could do that in
that moment, go with the one that feels the most
(23:14):
morally correct with you. And like, now we're in this
moment where it's like we could hunker down and try
to make as much money for ourselves as possible, but
clearly the right choice is let's work with everyone, get
everyone sort of moving in the same direction, get people
feeling good about this space again, and then maybe we
can kind of heal some of that.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Riff that you're talking about a little bit. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
We're not going to be able to get back to
people who are reactionaries that have turned to right wingers
on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And they were never part of it exactly. So we
just got to focus on the words that are there.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And there's a lot of people who
are right there ready to listen again.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
We just got to like let them know it's cool
in here again. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I think we need to get back to the lots
of smaller teams. I think because absolutely, I'm actually really
glad you corrected me. I thought Polygon was that they
grew too big. That was just the assumption I made,
which was incorrect, clearly not. Yeah, not what I've heard
from anyone that I've talked to. Yeah, it sucks because
I was originally they talked to me at the beginning
(24:13):
of Polygon. I was in PR at the time, and
they're like, yeah, do you want to come over here?
I was like, no, I must stay at a job.
I'm unhappy at it.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Like probably in the beginning for sure, but they definitely
kind of figured out out over time.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh no, No, they no, they genuinely they wanted to
need to do PR. I think it's just McElroy and
it's I think that the future is going to be
lots of smaller ones. I think the games as well.
There is less competition because it's not like scoop heavy.
I guess you could play a game first, but at
that point you're just you played the game. Like.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I still think there's a semblance of that, and there is, but.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's not like compared to getting a massive funding announcement
in tech or like a breakdown technology.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
You're sure sure, like a partnered embargo thing I.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
Mean, yeah, still competition certainly, but you're right, like there's
like everyone is small. That's what the landscape is. And
it's the reckoning of corporate media. Having this realization of like,
our competition is thirty thousand small independent creators and how
do we how do we like come to terms with
that in a way that will satisfy what we need
(25:17):
this thing to do?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Answers.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
Yeah, and the answer is no, one knows how to
do it because probably there is no answer. So that realization,
that epiphany, which I think everyone has to have, like
for themselves at one point in their life, you know,
kind of lends you to why you know, things like
this wind up happening.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I think that there's also the problem of all
of these big entities buying things and draining all the
personality out is it's replaced all the personality with people
on YouTube that post pictures of themselves frowning and saying
the dragon age just got woke in it or whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Oh that we got to take those pictures of us
frowning guys.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, right, based organization.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
H I got to work on my pointing.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Like the the and this is this is a reference
as well, just to any listeners is like Uber Driver
sucked me off, and it was like the Rob Whisman picture.
Anyone who doesn't know what that is. I swear it's
not just me talking about that.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
But if my favorite is the Undertaker got a podcast
not too long ago and seeing the Undertaker do YouTube
faces is.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, that's so special.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
It comes for everyone.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But we need the opinion, like we do actually need
the opinion back. It's just the gaming online. I feel
like a loss dropper out of nonm sometimes because it's
like gaming online is like, oh you don't like fucking
Sonica Mario, I will kill you, Yeah, yep, you insult
Bubbsey the Bob can't?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I will?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, well I can, and I have.
Speaker 7 (26:42):
You know, fanboyism is a currency for sure. And I
think like that argument of position, as much as it sucks, right,
is a thing that probably too many people are finding
the worst things about themselves and placing it into the
energy of that discourse online. And you know, I think
that's what probably you know, separates for my personal taste
(27:04):
what I want to watch and what is out there.
And I think, uh, you know the fact that you
you know, I think like personality is another former currency.
That is a thing that is all but lost in
a lot of larger, you know, media outlets. That's that
is a thing you can't replace. That is the thing
that AI is not going to replace. That is a
thing that you know has to be genuine.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Yeah, we were in that question, like where's the Lester
bangs and video games journalism? That was part of that
new gamesjournalism thing, and it's like it did happen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It was probably Donkey Like it's probably.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Big YouTuber like just kind of does funny talking over
gameplay and he's got a pretty good eye and.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
He probably thought he was Yeah, but yeah, and I mean.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Yazi is definitely part of that lineage for sure.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Video game nerd, video game YouTube guy.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I saw yeah, yep, yeah, I And I like Yatse's
original stuff. I really don't want to look what's happened
since it's one of those things where I hope nothing
bad happened.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, you know, a Yachtzi is still kind of doing
his thing. I think he's over as second win now,
which is a Patreon back thing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
It's h yeah, it's and I think that every time
the ground is seated away from personality, it is kind
of fitting into the right wing type people though, because
the right way it isn't like you get a bunch
of clicks just for being nice or loving stuff, right,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, it's very easy.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
I think it's very easy for people who are able
to make that pivot into hate currency and hate juicing
where they're just like, oh my, like I can easily
hate on things and use that as ammunition and weaponize this,
and that becomes my primary mode of revenue generation. I
(29:02):
can pick a target, juice it for all it's worth,
like a cancer, and then move on to my next victim.
And as long as I'm able to like just you know,
jump onto the next melting iceberg, I'm gonna be okay.
So whether whoever it is is the target online, you know,
that's how that strategy goes, and geologically it works for
people they're super naked about it this like this.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
In this past week, there was one of these creators
who was and someone like screenshot I didn't posted the
Blue Sky or whatever, him complaining that his video she
does about one individual woman video games journalist no longer
get very many hits for months and months and months,
He's like, this was my whole business now I'm not
making any money.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
It's my whole business.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
He's like explicitly saying, woe is me, I'm not making
money from harassing this person anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It was one of the most insane things I've ever.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Seen to turn it into a conspiracy, and you say, oh,
I've been shadow band over an algorithm against me because
of course, of course, Yeah, I know what. All these
creators seem very very happy too.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
That's the one thing about it. Yeah, they all seem very.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Okay, take a good line of work, very normal and
happy with the lie.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, they don't seem to health get for that. They
they only genuinely don't seem to like playing video games
on the computure.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So nope. I mean they could just do it, and
they always choose not to.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
No, we get to look at everything through the lens
of like, okay, what's the angle on getting people pissed
off about this? And that sounds exhausting and miserable.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
That stuff is a little bit of low tide right now.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
I mean that stuff did pop off again in the
last few years, but it didn't last as long. Everyone
kind of saw through it, and now you are seeing
people who were probably pretty young and impressionable in like
twenty fourteen, when the original gamer Gate stuff was happening,
talking about man, I wish I just didn't click on
that one video is telling me all the things that
all the ways that feminism was ruined video games, Like
(30:53):
I could see now that that was a bad choice
in the path of my life.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wasted years.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
And it's like these kids are growing up and seeing
stuff in like the next generation will be a little
bit more cynical about that going forward, I think, But
it's always going to be there and they're always going
to be trying to it. Reality is, if they do
it and they get rewarded, the algorithm is built to
reward them. It's going to keep happening no matter what,
as long as.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That's the case.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
See what always pissed me off about that, Other than
all the hate and the getting people angry in the
attacks on journalism. On top of all of that, they
don't seem angry at the fucking games companies were actually
making the realness. Put aside the made up sexism or
made up misandry. It's all bullshit, not even going to
humor it. I don't know. Look at the fact that
NFL has given one company, Electronic Arts, this one game, Madden,
(31:43):
and it has been bad for fifteen years. It has
been the same game for the last three right.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
When there was good competition, and they're like, oh, crap,
we better lock this down.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And they did. Yeah, yep, they did, they did. And
that feels like something. I'm not saying they should be
a hate campaign against anything, but maybe if you're going
to do one, choose an actual giant company doing horrible ship.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Yeah, they because they don't care that. That's not what
they're interested in, right, Like, that is not the story
for them. The story has to be deeply personal and accessible.
I don't I think you know. An expose about that
is is uh is like sort.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
Of boring in a way to you know where it leads.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
It leads you to the thing. As always it's like, oh,
the whole capitalist system. Rightly, these are all symptoms and
that is not going to help them with them trying
to sell this idea that you're isolated because the feminists
want you isolated.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, you're right, Yeah, because you're isolated because the system,
the system you're within, has kept you separate from people.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
They're all walkable.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Cities, right, there's content to entaglea. It's woman.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Yeah, that's it. It all comes to that.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Yeah, in our space, it's women in uh, you know,
common politics, it's immigrants, it's it's yeah, always the scapegoat.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, well it's the son of a woman and an immigrant.
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
No, I guess the father of daughters was.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
The line from Spider Verse as well as like as
the son of a mother and the father of a daughter.
But it's I do have hope seeing Giant Bomb do
what you do. When the bad stuff happened, I was
definitely like games journalism's fucked, Like this is just like
polygon everything, just like look at it. Just was very
(33:26):
dark about it. But like, actually, I feel like there
is an independent wave happening and there are so many
like amazing creators like Lucy James of course former Giant Bomb.
She's amazing. I only found her work fairly recently. It's
like you've got all these amazing creators out there. Gaming
is becoming more mainstream, and I think that there is
genuine hope here. There's genuine mainstream interest. It's just a
(33:48):
question of cracking it.
Speaker 7 (33:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think everyone likes that. It's because
it's a good story. It's a it's a good story
with you know, I don't want to call in a
happy ending, right, but a very like, you know, a
positive way, a positive outcome of a thing that seemed
to not have any realistically happy you know, turnout.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And then and it came from like the fact that
the audience was so excited. It's like, oh, you know,
they wanted to do that thing to keep going. We're
able to keep it going. It's so yeah, you can
match that up and make that makes sense, and it
feels like that should be a business.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
And we all agreed, yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
Yeah, And the tone of our conversations internally, you know,
you go to a month ago versus how we're talking now,
which is like, oh my god, it is a world different.
We've got optimism and you know, we're always passionate and everything,
but now it just really feels like we're free to
to directly make this stuff the audience wants.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Yeah, but I think you're right.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
I think that I think you're right about an independent
sort of wave happening because I think, you know, I
don't I'm not a big like fate or or you
know destiny person But what I am is that Yeah,
well obviously, but but I think like on a long
enough timeline, you have you know, doors that open that
allow the sort of like spread up a thing that
(35:00):
people kind of want to put their energy into and
have that you know, proliferate in a positive way. And
I think, you know, on a lot, like I said,
on a long enough timeline, like odds are, I do
think that's going to break through the surface and come
out in a way that makes everyone happy. And I
think that is a bit of what happened with our story.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
And I can be you know, super jazzed about that,
especially in the manner did I would like it of
not to have had to happen so quickly.
Speaker 6 (35:27):
I wish maybe I had.
Speaker 7 (35:29):
Another week or two where Grub and I could have
handed this plane. But yeah, it it is definitely a
bright future in that regard for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, And it's I also think that I don't know,
personality is profitable. I think that there's real It requires patience,
which private equity does not like. But like cool zide media,
we've done pretty well giving people a runway to not
fuck up but love them. What you're doing. I feel
like you guys haven't. I's a question though, so it's
(36:02):
just you. How many people are you right now? So
it's usually and a few other five people? Are you
going to be bringing on others? Are you going to
be bringing back any of the original GP people who
haven't been there? Like, what's the plan to expand if
there is one? Because isn't a problem if you haven't.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean the reality is like Backler's right, this
stuff came together so fast that we don't really have
insight into what like our own personal financial futures look like.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
With this thing.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
We have an idea, we feel pretty okay about it,
but it's like, you know, we're going to keep pushing
to try to grow because as fast as we can grow,
or as many as many people as we can get
to support it, we can then begin to look at
doing other things of bringing other people on. But it's
it is scary, and so we want to try to
figure out as much as we can on our own
so we could be solid and then all of the
(36:48):
growth can just make sense naturally after that. It wouldn't
be like, I mean, guys, I couldn't imagine ever having
more than ten people like.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Right, it's like like you said, like, we haven't even
seen the first dollar yet. You know, we we have
no idea what to expect in terms of this, and
like even though we were a small outlet under the
corporate umbrella, you know, there was a freelancer fund and
budget and things like that, so we were able to
bring people on and pay them regularly and things like that,
and just the business realities of it. Uh, you know,
(37:18):
the Jeff's here definitely looked into it a lot, and
we we don't know yet.
Speaker 7 (37:21):
But yeah, I mean, I'm you know, I'm very I
feel like there was a there was a time where
people were sort of like, oh, another one of these,
like how how can the market handle another you know,
Patreon or or independent thing that needs you know, direct
support to sustain itself. And you know, I kind of
(37:44):
I kind of throw that argument away. I think it
is truly a rising tide situation because, you you know,
the the the independence allows for collaboration in a in
a really positive and organic way. And I think I
think a lot of people who tell them themselves that story,
(38:04):
whether they're you know, involved in the business or they
are on the audience side of that are really not
seeing the force for the trees and understanding like no,
you like, look at how YouTube creators and twitch streamers
and all these people help each other grow. It is
all about genuine collaboration and audience sharing and like exposing
(38:25):
yourself to the people who even if it's someone who
just very slimly overlaps in that Venn diagram, you know,
that is the best endorsement you can get. And I
think there's you know, to your question at of like
bringing on new people, Like, I don't think there's really
ever a situation where we wouldn't want to collaborate with anyone.
Obviously having someone on in the full time capacity is
(38:47):
a limitation of just what you know, the business is
able to bring in. But you know, I don't think
that means that in no way we wouldn't be open
to really exploring all kinds of stuff with people. I mean,
that's the point, right like. That is what we talk
about when we say we're in this together. As you said,
right like, that is the spirit of that, and if
we don't do that, well then we're not holding up
our part of the bargain.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Are you going to do any event stuff live stuff.
I realize, all if this is very new, but what
are you thinking? And it always do not neat to
be specific, we announced at Packs East.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
The timing worked out crazy, like you know, signatures were
a signed like the day before pack season. We're able
to do this big announcement and in the future. We've
always loved doing packs, Giant Bombs, always had a big
presence of packs and would love to keep doing that,
you know, whether it makes sense to like, you know,
unless we're getting like flown out for something like are
we going to pay to send the whole crew out
to games Com or something like that, Like probably no,
(39:39):
probably not, especially not this early on, but like you know,
a lot of times places will offer to you know,
fly you out for preview events or these bigger conferences,
and yeah, we would when it makes sense, we will
definitely do that stuff.
Speaker 6 (39:50):
Well, you're going to bring us out for CES right
in January.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I don't know how the hell I'm going to get
you there or whay you're going to sleep, but if
you have to be in town, I'd love to have
you on because that CES has become like the fucking
solidarity Fest. If anyone like we're gonna we're extending see
yes to two hours per episodes to two a day,
Like we're gonna have tons of people on, and I
just think that that's what the indis can do for
each other. I'm not even saying like put me on.
(40:15):
I'm just saying the acknowledging and working together on this
ship is actually how better stuff will be done. Back
in the course days with Dennis and Future all those
fuck nuts used to hang out. And I say that
with deep adoration of said fuck nuts, me being one
of them. But it's just I think that any independent
listening to this needs to know that this is like
(40:36):
the Allies are the people doing this independently too, Not
to say people at big outlets aren't, but it's like
we only have each other.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Mm hm yes, I mean without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
Yeah, I'll do the the you know, we're gonna try
to do GB at Night at Summer game Fest and
things like that. That's a lot of work right now
because it's less than a month away and this all
kind of happened real hot.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
We're doing our best, but you.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Know, for that, you know, GB at Night is this
thing where we just have our friends come sit on
a couch and I interview them and we do like
six segments a night, and the whole idea is just
about like getting cool people from the industry into the
same room together so we could just talk this stuff
out and it's it's very cathartic. It's oh yeah, we
you do come out of that feeling more connected and
like they're oh, there there is one of the ladders up,
(41:16):
or there's one of the ladders someone else is sending
down so other people can maybe just have a chance
to grab a foothold on something. And yeah, that's been
important to me for a long time, so I'd love
to keep doing something like that. And you're right that,
to me, that's the only path forward for getting new
people into these spaces.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Where can people find you other than johnbomb dot com.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Let's let's hit giinbomb dot com slash join if you
want to become a member and support what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Jo yeah, Jeded, that's We'll give you all the information there.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
But other than that, I'm grub dot WTF on Blue
Sky and that's where I'm mostly posting these days.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
Yep, I'm a Dan Reicherd dot com on Blue Sky,
Dan Record on Instagram.
Speaker 7 (41:56):
Yes, I am Jeff Bachelar pretty much everywhere, and yeah,
you know, like that's another good thing, right, Like we're
you know, we can kind of serve people wherever they are,
right so, like it doesn't matter where you're looking for us.
We don't have this kind of like shackle around us
where we can only do a thing here or there.
And you know, it's a lot more accessible now, which
(42:17):
is awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Thank you so much for joining me, guys, and thank
you everyone for listening. You can find me at Google
dot com. That's where I live, and you will now
hear a message that I will never re record. It's
going to be the same one from when I was
a weird band that was unconfident in my podcasting ability.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Thank you, Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
T O S O W s ki dot com. You
can email me at easy at betrofline dot com or
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Speaker 3 (43:02):
And of course my newsletter.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's
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Speaker 3 (43:12):
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
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Speaker 2 (43:17):
For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool
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Media.
Speaker 2 (00:05):
Hello, and welcome to Better Offline. I'm your host ed zitron.
As a reminder, you can now by shirts, hoodies, and
even mugs in our merchandise store. There's a link in
the notes. God damn it, give me money. I need
(00:27):
you to wear the shirt.
Speaker 3 (00:28):
For me today.
Speaker 2 (00:29):
I'm joined by the new owners of gaming site Giant Bomb,
Jeff Backlar, Jeff grub and Dan Reikert Fellas. Welcome to
the show.
Speaker 4 (00:36):
It's pronounce fair trying, okay, all right, yeah, okay, I'll speak.
Speaker 2 (00:41):
I definitely on an interview a few days ago, miss
said my own name and miss said better I was
like a better off ship. And Matt Sawski, my producer,
regularly hears these things, so that's always fun. But congratulations,
by the way, So walk me through, Dan, perhaps walk
me through what happened. So there was some filing in
(01:02):
and out from Giant Bomb, and then you guys kind
of took it over.
Speaker 5 (01:07):
Yeah, so's I started the longest ago in like twenty fourteen.
So in terms of how the recent stuff went down,
I think the jeffs here Fellaws tell me if I'm wrong.
I feel like you maybe have had some more time
on the phone lawyer.
Speaker 6 (01:22):
I like watching this guy sweat.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
Let's exactly.
Speaker 5 (01:24):
I just wanted to make sure I didn't I'm not like,
oh yeah, this work. You know, It's like I just
kind of fell into this. No, Jeff and Jeff left Fandom,
our previous parent company, and as part of the deal,
were able to buy Giant Bomb and are bringing in
you know, me Jana Choa or longtime producer and our
(01:46):
good friend Mike Manatti who has been trying to be
full time at Giant Bomb for a long time and
he completely skipped full time and went straight from contractor
to co owner.
Speaker 2 (01:55):
Of the websites.
Speaker 5 (01:56):
Yes, yes, so yeah, long history of corporate ownership and
you know, digging back to two thousand and eight and
you know, four different owners basically, and now I guess
we are the fifth group.
Speaker 2 (02:08):
Nice, So what is the new structure? So you guys
are all the owners, You're going to be doing the
same kind of games journalism you're already doing. I know
that the YouTube channel went offline. Is it coming back?
Speaker 1 (02:19):
Yeah?
Speaker 4 (02:19):
Yeah, we were streaming of YouTube just right before we
came here. Yeah, we were doing our black club shows.
So right now the structure looks like are we getting
all the stuff from fandom that we need and they've
been very helpful and that stuff. But it's like just
kind of getting the keys to everything. And then there
is a whole other process of us getting a business
started because this wasn't like us necessarily buying the business.
(02:42):
We bought a lot of assets, so we have to
start our own business to sort of take these things
on and make it make sense. So in parallel, while
we were goofing off, well, Mike was playing Rascal for
the PlayStation one for our game for our show where
we played bad Games Backlar was still working in the
background making sure that we'll have a bank account and
stuff like that. But as far as like the overall
(03:03):
idea of what this company looks like, yeah, it's gonna
be us kind of taking it on all on ourselves,
kind of splitting it up evenly amongst us and just
getting to work and investing in our time and seeing
a payoff because now it's all on us.
Speaker 2 (03:16):
It's weird as well, because it's like both one of
the most depressing times in games journalism history, I'm one
of the most encouraging because the amount of layoffs are horrifying,
but you and Atamath have really come out of well,
I don't want to say nowhere, because it's been quite
public and chaotic. You kind of seem to be building
a new model for journalism writ large.
Speaker 7 (03:38):
Yeah, well, yeah, I think like the thing that the
lesson everyone learned they learned like ten years ago, where
the sort of like contemporary understanding of games media or
really any media you know that covers some sort of
entertainment is probably not compatible with what a corporation would
(03:59):
need out of that in terms of like revenue expectations
and just you know, filing in in a way that
makes sense.
Speaker 6 (04:06):
And that's fine.
Speaker 7 (04:08):
And I think you know what this with the with
the Aftermath Experiment and all these other sort of independent
journalistic entities have sort of shown is that this can
work with a private sort of consideration of ownership as
opposed to you know, just having it be another asset
in the corporate media portfolio. Right that, And I think
(04:31):
the value that these types of entities present make a
lot more sense right under the guise of private ownership
than they do, you know, under the umbrella.
Speaker 2 (04:41):
So kind of yeah, it kind of feels as well
like games journalism gets pulled in very hard by these
big private equity. I'm not specifically referring to any of them,
just to be clear, these large entities by them because
I imagine they're traffic drivers, and there's always news and
there's always kind of such traffic coming in games and.
Speaker 4 (05:00):
Guides and stuff like that. These things have been honed
to be SEO, you know, sort of machines for a
long time. The people who've been in charge of them
have once understood that to be very important. Now, of course,
like Google has made things very complicated for a lot
of sites that built their sites in one way and
now they have to shift and no one really understands
the way the winds are blowing. But yeah, that traffic
(05:22):
means something to someone for sure, and that's why you
see something like a polygon becoming the target of a vow.
Speaker 2 (05:28):
Now.
Speaker 4 (05:29):
I guess the public understanding is bound Net approached Vox
Media about polygon, and I asked them about it like
some time ago, and have been trying to make this
happen since then. Vox wasn't necessarily shopping around, but it
became the target of that because it does have this traffic.
It has this built in if you search for something,
there's a good chance Polygon is going to serve it
to you in the video game space. And yeah, so
(05:50):
these kind of equity firms they spot this and they
want to extract that value. It means bad things for
the actual people working at these sites almost universally every time.
Speaker 1 (06:00):
And that's why this.
Speaker 4 (06:01):
Other model of us coming and being like we're gonna
own it ourselves and we're gonna have a direct relationship
with the with the audience.
Speaker 1 (06:08):
That kind of is the only ground to retreat to
at this point.
Speaker 4 (06:11):
We are either going to keep having this stuff because
we're all in it together, as hopy as that sounds,
or we're just not gonna have it at all.
Speaker 1 (06:18):
Those are the options now.
Speaker 7 (06:19):
Yeah, it's also I think it's important to call out that, like,
there does exist a type of person that I think
we all sort of slot into in this goldilock zone
that has sat on both sides of the sort of
influential divide, where you know, we all began our careers
in a very kind of like I don't maybe not
(06:39):
antiquated is not the right word, but certainly a traditional
sort of like media and and and publisher relationship into
the relationship.
Speaker 2 (06:47):
I worked I work CVG.
Speaker 8 (06:51):
Yeah, yeah, and let's be honest, we're not that old, right,
Like we're you know, we're as young exactly. We see,
maybe we we sit in this very weird sort of
like like I said, this Goldilocks zone where we're like,
we understand what came before, what happened during, and now
what's after. And I think that very uniquely positions a
(07:14):
small slice of sort of institutional knowledge right where where
you can kind of like leverage that in a way
that not a lot of people have that sort of
insight from both sides of the fence.
Speaker 5 (07:25):
And that goes back to you know, the founding of
Giant Bomb in two thousand and eight, because it was
four guys that broke off from game Spot, you know,
more traditional web based gaming media and formed this very
personality focused thing, you know, like kind of in the
early days of YouTube gaming personalities and things like that.
But it did come from that, yeah, institutional knowledge, people
that had worked you know, et threes dating back to
the nineties and things like that. It wasn't just you know,
(07:46):
some kids that started youtubing and getting big. It kind
of straddled the line from the beginning.
Speaker 2 (07:50):
I met one of the saddest things to me was
watching PC zone collapse. It was the magazine I worked to,
the Games and Magazina worked to in England, and in
a different, different time, I think they would have come together,
we would have come together and done something. But two
thousand and eight was when that happened. I was moving
to America as well, but that was Future publishing Bolton
fuck Future, yeah shit, yeah, well they're gonna do to me, And.
Speaker 4 (08:13):
They repeatedly kind of do that stuff to people say yeah,
fuck for real real quick on that. Like I remember thinking,
like back when that was happening in two thousand and eight,
when e GM and one Up was collapsing, It's like
it had the one Up Yours podcast kind of lasted
a few more years. They all could have easily just
transitioned that into a podcast with ads for one thing,
(08:34):
and then a direct to customer supported a way of
doing things on the other hand, and that really would
have taken off for them. Instead, they this guy's had
to go kind of filter into working in the corporate
side for making games.
Speaker 2 (08:46):
The problem is with podcasts is, as you well know,
like monetizing them is very difficult. I mean, people complain
about the ads here being on the iHeart Radio. I
mean it works great because cool Zone Media and I
Heart leaves us alone fairly, but people complain about the ads.
It's like, have you tried starting a fucking podcast? Isn't cheap,
So it's it's just a frustrating but great time because
after Mask's doing really interesting stuff that I feel is
(09:07):
going to be I feel like Giant Bumb's gonna be
very like classic gamer stuff, like creative but still very
much about the games, and Aftermath is doing that plus
what would have been called derisively new games journalism. Mm hmm,
way back when do you remember that fellas? Yeah, new
games I remember that. I remember when people were talking
about that.
Speaker 1 (09:26):
Let's talk about that loudu narrative dissonance.
Speaker 5 (09:30):
Yeah, fuck, like the start of Polygon press reset type stuff.
Speaker 2 (09:33):
Yeah, well, explain that for the listeners because it sucks,
but they should know.
Speaker 1 (09:39):
You talk about that, the Polygon thing or.
Speaker 5 (09:43):
Go ahead, dan Oh, it's just like games media going
back to like you know, EGM and Game in Former,
like the magazines of the nineties, to like the early
you know, web based ign games by stuff. It was
just you know, we we were repairing press releases, and
it's like news stories were basically like there's a new
box art for Assassin screen.
Speaker 1 (10:02):
Game have, Yeah, yeah, exactly, You're getting.
Speaker 5 (10:04):
More levels this time, like that type of stuff. So
it's like that's why I even back when I started
never considering myself a journalist, because I realized it's just like, Okay,
I'm just kind of reporting on silly things here and
giving a score to a game and things like that.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
I think that there's something marvelous about that with games journalism.
It's the way there's because I don't they'll write and
geta especially over there is written like very long form,
thoughtful emotional pieces. I think that that's what's I want
to say missing because it's happening. But that's what makes
game journalism great. You can have stuff. It was just
like I played something. It's stunked to shit. It made
me angry, I want to kill someone, but I love
(10:37):
it because it's got this one tiny like there was.
I remember reviewing a game zone the sky Fall movie,
tying game activision remarkably tight Gears of Wark Loan and
remember being like, this sucks, but I love it. That's
great for gaming as well. But then the very deep
emotional stuff, and I think that it's what lends itself
(10:58):
to exactly what you're doing, which is this kind of
let's get together, let's make something about all Halpy and
our job and whatever, and the in between pot can
be Giant bomb.
Speaker 1 (11:08):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (11:08):
I think there's very much room for both because I remember,
like when Polygon was starting in like you know, probably
like the twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen whenever that was, and
they were very much, you know, banging the drum of
like we are doing serious games journalism and telling human
stories and it's gonna be this emotional, deep stuff. And
I remember looking at that and be like, I don't
know how the fuck to do that. If I can
tell you if never did, is any good? You know?
(11:30):
Like so, but I think there's a room for both
because like someone like me broke in because I wanted
to work with a bunch of dorks and talk about
video games and now make videos about video games. But
then there are there are important stories to tell. And
I think, you know, to give Grub some credit here,
I think Grub might be the best I've ever seen
at balancing both, Like he does the daily news show
on Giant bomb dot com and we'll cover the serious
(11:51):
stuff in layoffs and just kind of issues facing the industry.
But then he'll also you know, dress up like Bubbsy
and play Bubzy three D for Blake Club, you know.
So I do think Grubb is uniquely qualified to do
both ends of that.
Speaker 1 (12:02):
Yeah, and I enjoy in both.
Speaker 4 (12:04):
I definitely remember growing up in like reading EGM or
Game Players and being like, man, the people who are
in this magazine, they have a lot of personality and
they clearly fill every page with that, and I like
know these people by name. Now I kind of know
what they're into, and I built a real connection with them,
and then you know that then that would actually lead
me into some of their real reporting on stuff that
(12:26):
mattered to them, especially in EGM and then like Next
Gen Magazine later, And I just remember like really enjoying
both sides of that.
Speaker 1 (12:32):
A lot of games are.
Speaker 4 (12:34):
Silly and stupid and wouldn't be fun if we took
that seriously, and I really enjoyed that aspect.
Speaker 1 (12:39):
Of my job.
Speaker 2 (12:40):
Yeah, And CVG used to have this kind of yellow
it was. I don't know if you ever physically read
an issue of Computer Video Against magazine it's original, but
they had this middle section that was in like almost
like yellow Pages style and it was just rambling shit.
It was beautiful. It's like games. Genuinely, I was blues
off like two years ago, and like games were the
(13:02):
one thing that I could bond with people over because
it didn't require you to be anyone, Like I played
a shit ton of EverQuest I was. I think it
was one of the first momo like real Remmo reports
in England, Ollie Welsh as well Legend Sure yeah, Shah Sally.
But it's like and one of the leftover Polygon people.
It's just what pisses me off about all of this
(13:22):
as well, is it doesn't seem that hard to run
a games journalism out let. Well, you just don't hire
so many people and make them do eleven stories a day.
Speaker 4 (13:31):
I mean, the real sad thing with Polygon is they
didn't make any of those mistakes when people saw the
layoffs snow like, oh that's a lot of people. It's
like they were successful and profitable and could have kept growing,
but they had a very sort of like moderate take
on Okay, yeah we could, but let's just keep all
this sustainable and a lot of that goes down to
the leadership of Chris Plant, who I just admire so much.
(13:55):
Is he's got such a good head on his shoulders,
and it just filtered all the way down through Polygon.
So it's like they were doing it right, and even
voxers are letting them do it right. It's just like,
even when that happens, you there's that buds and buzz
saw that's going to show up and be like, we're
gonna rip this thing apart and find a way to
make more money.
Speaker 1 (14:11):
Fronament, So here's some money.
Speaker 9 (14:13):
It's fucking books. I didn't know they were profitable. Yeah,
it's so infuriated. It was a successful business, I think.
Is not how I would phrase it.
Speaker 2 (14:31):
It's so fucking stupid because I feel like these outlets
could on some level, maybe not a ton print money,
but they there are tons of gamers who love reading stuff.
Sure like it sounds like Publican had a sustainable operation.
IGN is insane. I don't know, I do. I don't
know how many people work. Ign Igen breaks on my phone.
(14:52):
I don't know. If you've tried to look at nign guide.
Sometimes if you scroll too fast, it just goes not
sorry mate.
Speaker 5 (14:58):
Yeah, I mean, I know that so many sites now
could be.
Speaker 2 (15:02):
Your own.
Speaker 5 (15:03):
Yeah. Yeah, it just goes to the top or pops
up the thing and the accident and clicked the wrong thing. Yeah,
I hate that.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
Yeah, the Internet sucks.
Speaker 5 (15:09):
Now really this is as much.
Speaker 3 (15:12):
As is show about that.
Speaker 7 (15:15):
But a lot of those a lot of those sites
are are not there's there's it's tough to really say
that they all have agency in a way that you want, right,
And I think everything becomes this Frankensteinian creation of like
uh uh, you know, sort of meshing it with other
properties that sit alongside as sister companies, and you're just
(15:36):
never going to have that organic uh feeling.
Speaker 6 (15:39):
I do think you're right.
Speaker 7 (15:40):
I think the Polygon example is good because it was
sort of like the semblance of like, oh this does
feel sort of vacuum sealed off in a way that
that works, and everyone there, you know, really doing a
tremendous job. But for the most part, whenever you see
a lot of these massive, behemoth legacy media sites, they
are just the is you know, a vultron creation that
(16:05):
doesn't really allow for that amount of agency that you know,
I think the spirit of all those sites wants to.
Speaker 2 (16:10):
Be Yeah, and I think the like I've said earlier,
that kind of the obvious victim of any kind of
acquisition partner, because it's just you can turn them into
a slop shop and the immediately killed them, immediately killed them.
Speaker 7 (16:23):
Right, And that's what the Internet's allowed for, right, And
I know that's like, that's what I read what you say,
like you you always have it spot on at is
like that is like we are just sort of like
willfully watching the death of everything and calling it out
and just being like, yeah, that's the that's the next
ship that came into the harbor filled with ghosts, and
(16:45):
we're just gonna watch it continue on its way down
to its next port of call.
Speaker 6 (16:49):
And that's it. It's just this parade of dead websites
and dead Internet.
Speaker 4 (16:53):
And you're familiar, familiar with the Tony Oaks pro skater games, right,
So I was watching I was trying to read story
on Kataka the other day.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
I can't remember what it was about, but it did.
Speaker 4 (17:03):
It took me to a video instead, and there was
a man talking over the video and he kept calling
it thhps, thhps, and I'm like, I don't think i've
ever heard anyone say that before, and then it's like, oh,
I I'm listening to an AI voice. Of course I am,
of course interesting, yes, because he did it every time
in the same thhps thhps.
Speaker 5 (17:22):
Yeah, no one says that.
Speaker 4 (17:23):
No one said that, So I'm just like, that's of course,
that's they all think they're going to be able to
do that. That's the story we're gonna have to keep
telling over and over about what's happening with all these
websites and these equity firms coming in here.
Speaker 1 (17:34):
And I mean, of course I get turned off.
Speaker 4 (17:36):
I think most of the audience probably does get turned
off when they experienced that, right, because the one thing
about games and Stephen Spahn, who is an accessibility expert
in the space, he used to tell me like, why
why do I want to play video games?
Speaker 1 (17:47):
He's like, it's a currency.
Speaker 4 (17:48):
It's a social currency where I play something that I
get to talk to someone else about it and we
get to share something.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
We have a connection.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I mean, you said the one thing you could bond
over with people these video games. I think we all
get that at the very fundamental level. And so these
corporations trying to find a way to take that out
of there so they could save some money is obviously
just going to blow up in their faces.
Speaker 1 (18:07):
They just don't know why. Am Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:09):
And I actually think it could go the other way though,
which is as we get more independent gaming outlets. I
think that there could be real success there because I
think that that's what people want to like. There is
definitely a degree of hunger for when is a game
coming out, in the same way that people google when
the super Bowls come in. Of course, when the super
Bowls coming out. When the super Bowl's happening, there we go.
(18:31):
I do watch sports that did the super Bowl episode,
but it I think the no one actually reads these
outlets just to learn that they want a gamer who
has played a shit ton of games, who has a
good voice to say I like this or I'm worried
about this. And I think the worst of games journalism
has been when that's been dragged out of it. And
even when like we were doing these very early days
(18:52):
of the website for CVG, when we'd have to write
shit and just be like, this game's coming out, it's
going to be like this, And I say, we weren't
allowed to have character, but it definitely wasn't encouraged, which
is strange because the CBG mag was always so rude.
Speaker 6 (19:07):
It was it was it was utility.
Speaker 7 (19:08):
You were doing utility work, right as opposed to personality work.
Speaker 5 (19:12):
That's kind of how it works with like the old
preview system with magazines is because like you weren't supposed
to since the game wasn't out yet, you know. But
I remember I went to like an Xbox One pre
launch event thing and I played Rise Son of Rome.
Oh remember, was just thinking it was like I think
the headline I used was like, oh, it's as fun
as dialing a phone number because it's just like waiting
for something to turn red. Then he pressed the red button.
Speaker 2 (19:33):
Then it just sucks, calling it Microsoft snack.
Speaker 9 (19:36):
Yeah.
Speaker 5 (19:36):
Yeah, So I wrote that, and it was like it
had a negative tone, and the game was about to
come out in like three weeks, and it's like and
I kind of said, like, this seems like it might
suck in the preview, and I remember like both like
comments and stuff and people at work being like, well,
WHOA can't have this much like opinion in a preview.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
It's like I think I can.
Speaker 5 (19:53):
This is gonna kind of suck, you know.
Speaker 1 (19:55):
Yeah, there's no no rules there.
Speaker 4 (19:56):
I remember when Mark McDonald over at EGM said he
played two Human and said it's gonna be terrible, and
Dennis Diak like insisted on coming on their podcast and
talking to him about it, and like scolded him and said,
you're gonna regret everything you said when you played the
final version.
Speaker 2 (20:14):
Were rude of the day that you insulted to humans.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
I don't think.
Speaker 4 (20:17):
I don't think he ruled anything Jesus Christ.
Speaker 2 (20:23):
But this is even this conversation is what is fun
about games journalism because even a shit game, you have
the kind of horse trading like shit.
Speaker 3 (20:30):
Do you remember that terrible preview?
Speaker 2 (20:32):
I I do genuinely miss this about games journalism, like
it's the one. It's probably I miss it more than
the writing about the games, because backupece he's done. We
had like logs, Steve Hogerty Will Porter, we had all
sorts of like fun other people like Ryan, all the
people from the mag who just yell at you. And
I think that and actually I'm curious your thoughts about this.
(20:54):
I think what this industry also needs to do is
rebuild the solidarity because it was quite There was quite
a lot of it in two thousand and eight. It
feels like it's kind of drifted, and I feel like
that it's something in tech media I want to do too.
I want people to come back together and realize it
really is us versus them.
Speaker 7 (21:10):
Then yes, well, I'm curious to hear where you think
like the friction primarily lies.
Speaker 2 (21:16):
I think what it is is that so many people
have been hired, fired, hired fired, so many people have
left games journalism, gone into pr and then the people
that own these companies have stopped even being the classic
like Fortune as Fortune Future or Dennis Publishing. It's the people.
So you've always had ign as this kind of thing
(21:36):
over here, this juggernaut, and then remote work to an
extent as well, has done it too. It's just there's
less events when people are meeting. I don't even know
how we fix this, but it's something that I'm very
big in tech media at least, trying to bring people
together and be like, hey, look, it is really us
versus the largest corporations in the world.
Speaker 1 (21:54):
Sure.
Speaker 4 (21:54):
I mean, that's absolutely been my primary thought that pops
in my head throughout this entire experience, is we really
are in this together, and that I mean, when I
say us that we're in this together, I am thinking
about the other people who are in this creator driven space.
So kind of Funny's been super supportive and helping us
out and giving us pointers and stuff like that. The
guys over at next Lander have been pointing out Dan
(22:16):
was on Jeff Gersman's show yesterday. It's like we did
realize pretty quickly when Greg Miller did take that team
kind of Funny to go independent that there isn't that
real competition, like there the more people that care about
the kinds of the ways that we talk about video games,
the better for everybody. And people can bounce around between
these various sites that have a slightly slightly different take
(22:39):
on it, so we keep growing that space. It's good
for everyone. So how do we turn that into something?
And it's like, definitely, I'm coming into it with I'm
gonna like reference a book that I haven't read yet,
but I saw the interview.
Speaker 1 (22:51):
On Gailey Do the Daily Show. I'm gonna do it.
Speaker 4 (22:53):
I'm probably gonna I'm probably gonna misrepresent it. But it
was like moral ambition was the name of the book,
and it was this idea of you should in the
system that we have have ambition to try to do
big things, cool things, try to go make money. That's fine,
But when confronted with a fork in the road about hey,
I could do this or I could do that in
that moment, go with the one that feels the most
(23:14):
morally correct with you. And like, now we're in this
moment where it's like we could hunker down and try
to make as much money for ourselves as possible, but
clearly the right choice is let's work with everyone, get
everyone sort of moving in the same direction, get people
feeling good about this space again, and then maybe we
can kind of heal some of that.
Speaker 1 (23:31):
Riff that you're talking about a little bit. I don't know.
Speaker 4 (23:33):
We're not going to be able to get back to
people who are reactionaries that have turned to right wingers
on YouTube.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
And they were never part of it exactly. So we
just got to focus on the words that are there.
Speaker 4 (23:43):
Yeah, yeah, exactly, And there's a lot of people who
are right there ready to listen again.
Speaker 1 (23:48):
We just got to like let them know it's cool
in here again. Yeah.
Speaker 2 (23:51):
I think we need to get back to the lots
of smaller teams. I think because absolutely, I'm actually really
glad you corrected me. I thought Polygon was that they
grew too big. That was just the assumption I made,
which was incorrect, clearly not. Yeah, not what I've heard
from anyone that I've talked to. Yeah, it sucks because
I was originally they talked to me at the beginning
(24:13):
of Polygon. I was in PR at the time, and
they're like, yeah, do you want to come over here?
I was like, no, I must stay at a job.
I'm unhappy at it.
Speaker 4 (24:19):
Like probably in the beginning for sure, but they definitely
kind of figured out out over time.
Speaker 2 (24:23):
Oh no, No, they no, they genuinely they wanted to
need to do PR. I think it's just McElroy and
it's I think that the future is going to be
lots of smaller ones. I think the games as well.
There is less competition because it's not like scoop heavy.
I guess you could play a game first, but at
that point you're just you played the game. Like.
Speaker 6 (24:43):
I still think there's a semblance of that, and there is, but.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
It's not like compared to getting a massive funding announcement
in tech or like a breakdown technology.
Speaker 6 (24:51):
You're sure sure, like a partnered embargo thing I.
Speaker 7 (24:55):
Mean, yeah, still competition certainly, but you're right, like there's
like everyone is small. That's what the landscape is. And
it's the reckoning of corporate media. Having this realization of like,
our competition is thirty thousand small independent creators and how
do we how do we like come to terms with
that in a way that will satisfy what we need
(25:17):
this thing to do?
Speaker 2 (25:19):
Answers.
Speaker 7 (25:19):
Yeah, and the answer is no, one knows how to
do it because probably there is no answer. So that realization,
that epiphany, which I think everyone has to have, like
for themselves at one point in their life, you know,
kind of lends you to why you know, things like
this wind up happening.
Speaker 2 (25:34):
And I think that there's also the problem of all
of these big entities buying things and draining all the
personality out is it's replaced all the personality with people
on YouTube that post pictures of themselves frowning and saying
the dragon age just got woke in it or whatever.
Speaker 5 (25:48):
Oh that we got to take those pictures of us
frowning guys.
Speaker 4 (25:50):
Yeah, right, based organization.
Speaker 6 (25:53):
H I got to work on my pointing.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Like the the and this is this is a reference
as well, just to any listeners is like Uber Driver
sucked me off, and it was like the Rob Whisman picture.
Anyone who doesn't know what that is. I swear it's
not just me talking about that.
Speaker 5 (26:07):
But if my favorite is the Undertaker got a podcast
not too long ago and seeing the Undertaker do YouTube
faces is.
Speaker 2 (26:15):
Yeah, that's so special.
Speaker 6 (26:16):
It comes for everyone.
Speaker 2 (26:18):
But we need the opinion, like we do actually need
the opinion back. It's just the gaming online. I feel
like a loss dropper out of nonm sometimes because it's
like gaming online is like, oh you don't like fucking
Sonica Mario, I will kill you, Yeah, yep, you insult
Bubbsey the Bob can't?
Speaker 1 (26:37):
I will?
Speaker 2 (26:38):
Yeah, well I can, and I have.
Speaker 7 (26:42):
You know, fanboyism is a currency for sure. And I
think like that argument of position, as much as it sucks, right,
is a thing that probably too many people are finding
the worst things about themselves and placing it into the
energy of that discourse online. And you know, I think
that's what probably you know, separates for my personal taste
(27:04):
what I want to watch and what is out there.
And I think, uh, you know the fact that you
you know, I think like personality is another former currency.
That is a thing that is all but lost in
a lot of larger, you know, media outlets. That's that
is a thing you can't replace. That is the thing
that AI is not going to replace. That is a
thing that you know has to be genuine.
Speaker 4 (27:40):
Yeah, we were in that question, like where's the Lester
bangs and video games journalism? That was part of that
new gamesjournalism thing, and it's like it did happen.
Speaker 1 (27:47):
It was probably Donkey Like it's probably.
Speaker 4 (27:51):
Big YouTuber like just kind of does funny talking over
gameplay and he's got a pretty good eye and.
Speaker 1 (27:57):
He probably thought he was Yeah, but yeah, and I mean.
Speaker 4 (28:01):
Yazi is definitely part of that lineage for sure.
Speaker 5 (28:04):
Video game nerd, video game YouTube guy.
Speaker 2 (28:07):
I saw yeah, yep, yeah, I And I like Yatse's
original stuff. I really don't want to look what's happened
since it's one of those things where I hope nothing
bad happened.
Speaker 4 (28:17):
Yeah, you know, a Yachtzi is still kind of doing
his thing. I think he's over as second win now,
which is a Patreon back thing.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
It's h yeah, it's and I think that every time
the ground is seated away from personality, it is kind
of fitting into the right wing type people though, because
the right way it isn't like you get a bunch
of clicks just for being nice or loving stuff, right,
I mean.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Yeah, it's very easy.
Speaker 7 (28:40):
I think it's very easy for people who are able
to make that pivot into hate currency and hate juicing
where they're just like, oh my, like I can easily
hate on things and use that as ammunition and weaponize this,
and that becomes my primary mode of revenue generation. I
(29:02):
can pick a target, juice it for all it's worth,
like a cancer, and then move on to my next victim.
And as long as I'm able to like just you know,
jump onto the next melting iceberg, I'm gonna be okay.
So whether whoever it is is the target online, you know,
that's how that strategy goes, and geologically it works for
people they're super naked about it this like this.
Speaker 4 (29:25):
In this past week, there was one of these creators
who was and someone like screenshot I didn't posted the
Blue Sky or whatever, him complaining that his video she
does about one individual woman video games journalist no longer
get very many hits for months and months and months,
He's like, this was my whole business now I'm not
making any money.
Speaker 1 (29:44):
It's my whole business.
Speaker 4 (29:46):
He's like explicitly saying, woe is me, I'm not making
money from harassing this person anymore.
Speaker 1 (29:53):
It was one of the most insane things I've ever.
Speaker 5 (29:55):
Seen to turn it into a conspiracy, and you say, oh,
I've been shadow band over an algorithm against me because
of course, of course, Yeah, I know what. All these
creators seem very very happy too.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
That's the one thing about it. Yeah, they all seem very.
Speaker 5 (30:08):
Okay, take a good line of work, very normal and
happy with the lie.
Speaker 2 (30:12):
Yeah, they don't seem to health get for that. They
they only genuinely don't seem to like playing video games
on the computure.
Speaker 1 (30:20):
So nope. I mean they could just do it, and
they always choose not to.
Speaker 5 (30:23):
No, we get to look at everything through the lens
of like, okay, what's the angle on getting people pissed
off about this? And that sounds exhausting and miserable.
Speaker 1 (30:30):
That stuff is a little bit of low tide right now.
Speaker 4 (30:32):
I mean that stuff did pop off again in the
last few years, but it didn't last as long. Everyone
kind of saw through it, and now you are seeing
people who were probably pretty young and impressionable in like
twenty fourteen, when the original gamer Gate stuff was happening,
talking about man, I wish I just didn't click on
that one video is telling me all the things that
all the ways that feminism was ruined video games, Like
(30:53):
I could see now that that was a bad choice
in the path of my life.
Speaker 1 (30:57):
I wish I wouldn't have done that. I wasted years.
Speaker 4 (30:59):
And it's like these kids are growing up and seeing
stuff in like the next generation will be a little
bit more cynical about that going forward, I think, But
it's always going to be there and they're always going
to be trying to it. Reality is, if they do
it and they get rewarded, the algorithm is built to
reward them. It's going to keep happening no matter what,
as long as.
Speaker 1 (31:16):
That's the case.
Speaker 2 (31:17):
See what always pissed me off about that, Other than
all the hate and the getting people angry in the
attacks on journalism. On top of all of that, they
don't seem angry at the fucking games companies were actually
making the realness. Put aside the made up sexism or
made up misandry. It's all bullshit, not even going to
humor it. I don't know. Look at the fact that
NFL has given one company, Electronic Arts, this one game, Madden,
(31:43):
and it has been bad for fifteen years. It has
been the same game for the last three right.
Speaker 5 (31:49):
When there was good competition, and they're like, oh, crap,
we better lock this down.
Speaker 2 (31:53):
And they did. Yeah, yep, they did, they did. And
that feels like something. I'm not saying they should be
a hate campaign against anything, but maybe if you're going
to do one, choose an actual giant company doing horrible ship.
Speaker 7 (32:05):
Yeah, they because they don't care that. That's not what
they're interested in, right, Like, that is not the story
for them. The story has to be deeply personal and accessible.
I don't I think you know. An expose about that
is is uh is like sort.
Speaker 6 (32:21):
Of boring in a way to you know where it leads.
Speaker 4 (32:24):
It leads you to the thing. As always it's like, oh,
the whole capitalist system. Rightly, these are all symptoms and
that is not going to help them with them trying
to sell this idea that you're isolated because the feminists
want you isolated.
Speaker 2 (32:35):
Yeah, you're right, Yeah, because you're isolated because the system,
the system you're within, has kept you separate from people.
Speaker 1 (32:42):
They're all walkable.
Speaker 2 (32:43):
Cities, right, there's content to entaglea. It's woman.
Speaker 6 (32:48):
Yeah, that's it. It all comes to that.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Yeah, in our space, it's women in uh, you know,
common politics, it's immigrants, it's it's yeah, always the scapegoat.
Speaker 2 (32:56):
Yeah, well it's the son of a woman and an immigrant.
I think.
Speaker 1 (33:00):
No, I guess the father of daughters was.
Speaker 2 (33:05):
The line from Spider Verse as well as like as
the son of a mother and the father of a daughter.
But it's I do have hope seeing Giant Bomb do
what you do. When the bad stuff happened, I was
definitely like games journalism's fucked, Like this is just like
polygon everything, just like look at it. Just was very
(33:26):
dark about it. But like, actually, I feel like there
is an independent wave happening and there are so many
like amazing creators like Lucy James of course former Giant Bomb.
She's amazing. I only found her work fairly recently. It's
like you've got all these amazing creators out there. Gaming
is becoming more mainstream, and I think that there is
genuine hope here. There's genuine mainstream interest. It's just a
(33:48):
question of cracking it.
Speaker 7 (33:50):
Yeah, I mean, I think everyone likes that. It's because
it's a good story. It's a it's a good story
with you know, I don't want to call in a
happy ending, right, but a very like, you know, a
positive way, a positive outcome of a thing that seemed
to not have any realistically happy you know, turnout.
Speaker 4 (34:09):
And then and it came from like the fact that
the audience was so excited. It's like, oh, you know,
they wanted to do that thing to keep going. We're
able to keep it going. It's so yeah, you can
match that up and make that makes sense, and it
feels like that should be a business.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
And we all agreed, yeah.
Speaker 5 (34:22):
Yeah, And the tone of our conversations internally, you know,
you go to a month ago versus how we're talking now,
which is like, oh my god, it is a world different.
We've got optimism and you know, we're always passionate and everything,
but now it just really feels like we're free to
to directly make this stuff the audience wants.
Speaker 2 (34:36):
Yep.
Speaker 6 (34:37):
Yeah, but I think you're right.
Speaker 7 (34:37):
I think that I think you're right about an independent
sort of wave happening because I think, you know, I
don't I'm not a big like fate or or you
know destiny person But what I am is that Yeah,
well obviously, but but I think like on a long
enough timeline, you have you know, doors that open that
allow the sort of like spread up a thing that
(35:00):
people kind of want to put their energy into and
have that you know, proliferate in a positive way. And
I think, you know, on a lot, like I said,
on a long enough timeline, like odds are, I do
think that's going to break through the surface and come
out in a way that makes everyone happy. And I
think that is a bit of what happened with our story.
Speaker 2 (35:18):
Uh.
Speaker 7 (35:18):
And I can be you know, super jazzed about that,
especially in the manner did I would like it of
not to have had to happen so quickly.
Speaker 6 (35:27):
I wish maybe I had.
Speaker 7 (35:29):
Another week or two where Grub and I could have
handed this plane. But yeah, it it is definitely a
bright future in that regard for sure.
Speaker 2 (35:40):
Yeah, And it's I also think that I don't know,
personality is profitable. I think that there's real It requires patience,
which private equity does not like. But like cool zide media,
we've done pretty well giving people a runway to not
fuck up but love them. What you're doing. I feel
like you guys haven't. I's a question though, so it's
(36:02):
just you. How many people are you right now? So
it's usually and a few other five people? Are you
going to be bringing on others? Are you going to
be bringing back any of the original GP people who
haven't been there? Like, what's the plan to expand if
there is one? Because isn't a problem if you haven't.
Speaker 4 (36:16):
Yeah, I mean the reality is like Backler's right, this
stuff came together so fast that we don't really have
insight into what like our own personal financial futures look like.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
With this thing.
Speaker 4 (36:26):
We have an idea, we feel pretty okay about it,
but it's like, you know, we're going to keep pushing
to try to grow because as fast as we can grow,
or as many as many people as we can get
to support it, we can then begin to look at
doing other things of bringing other people on. But it's
it is scary, and so we want to try to
figure out as much as we can on our own
so we could be solid and then all of the
(36:48):
growth can just make sense naturally after that. It wouldn't
be like, I mean, guys, I couldn't imagine ever having
more than ten people like.
Speaker 5 (36:57):
Right, it's like like you said, like, we haven't even
seen the first dollar yet. You know, we we have
no idea what to expect in terms of this, and
like even though we were a small outlet under the
corporate umbrella, you know, there was a freelancer fund and
budget and things like that, so we were able to
bring people on and pay them regularly and things like that,
and just the business realities of it. Uh, you know,
(37:18):
the Jeff's here definitely looked into it a lot, and
we we don't know yet.
Speaker 7 (37:21):
But yeah, I mean, I'm you know, I'm very I
feel like there was a there was a time where
people were sort of like, oh, another one of these,
like how how can the market handle another you know,
Patreon or or independent thing that needs you know, direct
support to sustain itself. And you know, I kind of
(37:44):
I kind of throw that argument away. I think it
is truly a rising tide situation because, you you know,
the the the independence allows for collaboration in a in
a really positive and organic way. And I think I
think a lot of people who tell them themselves that story,
(38:04):
whether they're you know, involved in the business or they
are on the audience side of that are really not
seeing the force for the trees and understanding like no,
you like, look at how YouTube creators and twitch streamers
and all these people help each other grow. It is
all about genuine collaboration and audience sharing and like exposing
(38:25):
yourself to the people who even if it's someone who
just very slimly overlaps in that Venn diagram, you know,
that is the best endorsement you can get. And I
think there's you know, to your question at of like
bringing on new people, Like, I don't think there's really
ever a situation where we wouldn't want to collaborate with anyone.
Obviously having someone on in the full time capacity is
(38:47):
a limitation of just what you know, the business is
able to bring in. But you know, I don't think
that means that in no way we wouldn't be open
to really exploring all kinds of stuff with people. I mean,
that's the point, right like. That is what we talk
about when we say we're in this together. As you said,
right like, that is the spirit of that, and if
we don't do that, well then we're not holding up
our part of the bargain.
Speaker 2 (39:08):
Are you going to do any event stuff live stuff.
I realize, all if this is very new, but what
are you thinking? And it always do not neat to
be specific, we announced at Packs East.
Speaker 5 (39:17):
The timing worked out crazy, like you know, signatures were
a signed like the day before pack season. We're able
to do this big announcement and in the future. We've
always loved doing packs, Giant Bombs, always had a big
presence of packs and would love to keep doing that,
you know, whether it makes sense to like, you know,
unless we're getting like flown out for something like are
we going to pay to send the whole crew out
to games Com or something like that, Like probably no,
(39:39):
probably not, especially not this early on, but like you know,
a lot of times places will offer to you know,
fly you out for preview events or these bigger conferences,
and yeah, we would when it makes sense, we will
definitely do that stuff.
Speaker 6 (39:50):
Well, you're going to bring us out for CES right
in January.
Speaker 2 (39:54):
I don't know how the hell I'm going to get
you there or whay you're going to sleep, but if
you have to be in town, I'd love to have
you on because that CES has become like the fucking
solidarity Fest. If anyone like we're gonna we're extending see
yes to two hours per episodes to two a day,
Like we're gonna have tons of people on, and I
just think that that's what the indis can do for
each other. I'm not even saying like put me on.
(40:15):
I'm just saying the acknowledging and working together on this
ship is actually how better stuff will be done. Back
in the course days with Dennis and Future all those
fuck nuts used to hang out. And I say that
with deep adoration of said fuck nuts, me being one
of them. But it's just I think that any independent
listening to this needs to know that this is like
(40:36):
the Allies are the people doing this independently too, Not
to say people at big outlets aren't, but it's like
we only have each other.
Speaker 1 (40:42):
Mm hm yes, I mean without a doubt.
Speaker 4 (40:45):
Yeah, I'll do the the you know, we're gonna try
to do GB at Night at Summer game Fest and
things like that. That's a lot of work right now
because it's less than a month away and this all
kind of happened real hot.
Speaker 1 (40:53):
We're doing our best, but you.
Speaker 4 (40:55):
Know, for that, you know, GB at Night is this
thing where we just have our friends come sit on
a couch and I interview them and we do like
six segments a night, and the whole idea is just
about like getting cool people from the industry into the
same room together so we could just talk this stuff
out and it's it's very cathartic. It's oh yeah, we
you do come out of that feeling more connected and
like they're oh, there there is one of the ladders up,
(41:16):
or there's one of the ladders someone else is sending
down so other people can maybe just have a chance
to grab a foothold on something. And yeah, that's been
important to me for a long time, so I'd love
to keep doing something like that. And you're right that,
to me, that's the only path forward for getting new
people into these spaces.
Speaker 2 (41:33):
Well, guys, thank you so much for coming on the show.
Where can people find you other than johnbomb dot com.
Speaker 4 (41:38):
Let's let's hit giinbomb dot com slash join if you
want to become a member and support what we're doing.
Speaker 1 (41:43):
Jo yeah, Jeded, that's We'll give you all the information there.
Speaker 4 (41:46):
But other than that, I'm grub dot WTF on Blue
Sky and that's where I'm mostly posting these days.
Speaker 5 (41:51):
Yep, I'm a Dan Reicherd dot com on Blue Sky,
Dan Record on Instagram.
Speaker 7 (41:56):
Yes, I am Jeff Bachelar pretty much everywhere, and yeah,
you know, like that's another good thing, right, Like we're
you know, we can kind of serve people wherever they are,
right so, like it doesn't matter where you're looking for us.
We don't have this kind of like shackle around us
where we can only do a thing here or there.
And you know, it's a lot more accessible now, which
(42:17):
is awesome.
Speaker 2 (42:18):
Thank you so much for joining me, guys, and thank
you everyone for listening. You can find me at Google
dot com. That's where I live, and you will now
hear a message that I will never re record. It's
going to be the same one from when I was
a weird band that was unconfident in my podcasting ability.
Speaker 3 (42:33):
Thank you, Thank you for listening to Better Offline.
Speaker 2 (42:44):
The editor and composer of the Better Offline theme song
is Matasowski. You can check out more of his music
and audio projects at Matasowski dot com, M A T
T O S O W s ki dot com. You
can email me at easy at betrofline dot com or
visit Better Offline dot com to find more podcast links.
Speaker 3 (43:02):
And of course my newsletter.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
I also really recommend you go to chat dot where's
youoead dot at to visit the discord, and go to
our slash Better Offline to check out our reddit.
Speaker 3 (43:12):
Thank you so much for listening.
Speaker 1 (43:14):
Better Offline is a production of cool Zone Media.
Speaker 2 (43:17):
For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool
zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,
Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.
Host
Ed Zitron
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