March 13, 2025 • 54 mins
Dazzling actress, comedian, author, and content creator DYLAN MULVANEY joins Heather to talk about her new book PAPER DOLL, the life of a theater kid, Dylan's plans for her one woman show, dating across different countries, the fallout of Beergate, Heather's time on the set of Dylan's music video shoot, electrolysis vs laser hair removal, the time Heather was ALMOST in Annie, why Dylan LOVES a gay cruise, and why Dylan's existence should not be political.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:04):
Let's talk with Heather Dubrow starts out, well, my guest today,
she's just fabulous. They're giving her a very small intro
on my sheet here, creator and actress. That's all that's here.
She's an I con Are you kidding me? She is
an icon. I've known her for a while. She's the
most fabulous person. I have stories to tell and stories
to listen to. She's got this new incredible book called
(00:27):
paper Doll. Notes from a late Bloomer. Please welcome, Dylan Mlvaaney.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, Heather, Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I was trying to remember where, like where we met
such a fixture in my wife at this point that
where was the actual first meeting?
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, we were Instagram friends.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Okay, deal right, which is how many friendships are made
these days.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Funny.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I find that through my podcast and through social media,
the best, best, best things that I've gotten are lifelong
friends that from all different places that I find like
I'm so not just attracted to, but like in tune with, Especially.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
After the pandemic, I feel like we had to figure
out how to make friends in a different kind of way. Yeah,
so I feel like we were connected through our friend
Jamie though.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Jamie Greenberg friend of the show she's been on many times.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
We love Jamie. Yeah, and then we had lunch.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, that was a cute lunch.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It was a great lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And now I feel like I see you at the
Kathy Hilton's all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I loved your Kathy Hilton stories in the book so fun.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
She was like one of the first celebrities I ever met,
and it was like, of course, this this icon. You know,
I'm sitting in a valet and you know, she's like
I would have sworn you were a you know, a
cis woman or you know, she didn't say sis, but
it was like just one of those like pinch me moments.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And I've had so many of those in the last
three years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Do you get nervous all right? Because you are you
have been with so many famous people, and you've performed
with so many famous I mean, like, honestly, your your
IMDb is very impressive. Do you get stars drug still
when you talk to people or what kind of person
would make you starstruck?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I still get a little nervous when I talk to
Paris Hilton because and she's a dear friend now, but
like you're like, what do you what do I say
right now to Paris Hilton that like and what I've
actually found as a great way to get to know
some of these like notable figures is like leading with
like oversharing, I'll be like, oh my god, so this
(02:21):
is what I'm looking up with or and it kind
of it's it throws them for a second because I
think they're used to being praised for like I love you,
I love your work, I'm obsessed, and this is kind
of something different. It's a different way in because I'm
opening myself up to them, and a lot of the
times it works out. And I think there are still
like there's some people I would love to meet. Dolly
(02:42):
Parton still, Lady Gaga's now a good friend of mine.
But there I think that it's it's seeing them as
a human being and not as a persona or a character,
because I think so often we in the limelight are
like seen as these characters.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think sometimes people perceive me to be this like hyper.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Feminine trans girl that like, you know, worked with a
beer company, and they pinpoint you to be like a
few things right when where like I'm actually like the
girl that spends most of the day in bed and
I don't eat vegetables, and I sleep into one and like,
that's what my story actually is.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, but that's okay. I mean, look at Kathy Hilton.
Kathy's so funny. We were at an event in New York, right,
and everyone's dressed to the nines at this event whatever,
and then we all go to the bar to hang
out afterwards. So we're all hanging out on the bar
and she comes downstairs. She's completely changed.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
She's wearing pajamas or something.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, I mean, like when I say casual, I mean hair,
don't I mean casual. And She's like, yeah, I'm gonna
go for a burger now.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
This is who I really am. And I'm like, oh,
I love it well.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And I'm now at the point where I don't even
necessarily have to watch Housewise because I'm living Housewise with everyone.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And if I can say anything, it's that it is.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
It's one hundred percent accurate, Like like these like the
fact that I'm you know, at Kathy's house in a
circle of the housewives and I'm like hearing the tea
and being like, wait, this is actual real life. It
makes it just that much more enjoyable to watch.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, you know who makes me nervous, Chris Jenner. Oh why,
I think because I met her years ago. So we
had mutual friends, these couples, and I remember being at
Allen and Tanya Fick's house and she was there with
then Bruce, and we were just at this part together,
hanging out with every had lovely conversation. Obviously years later
(04:36):
she's now this icon, she's like this thing. And so
we have mutual friends, still different friends, but mutual friends.
But I feel like every time I see her when
I get nervous, like you, I start over sharing, but
I don't think it works as well for me to
be honest, and so I don't know. I feel not nervous, writer,
I feel awkward right, And I think we're both people
(04:58):
that like to fill the space. Like I I will
always be the first person to keep the conversation for
me too.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well that's what's tricky too, Like.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I'll go on a date or whatever, and I'll be
asking questions because the person won't be asking me, And
then by the end I'm like, well, they learned nothing
about me, and I know everything about their second cousin.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But it's hard.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
That's who we are and you know what that's that's okay.
I like that about us.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I love that you're a theater kid.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Do you like musicals? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I started. Maybe you don't know this about me. I
started a musical.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Thank god, I was a musical theater major. I thought
I was going to go to Broadway, ended up getting
cast on this TV show and moved to LA That's
the short story. So and then you know, worked as
an actress and all that, and then this crazy reality.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
But yeah, no, I have read like this year in particular.
So this year, as we were just talking about before
we got on the air, it started out very rough.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Oh honey, for I think most of us.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, and it's still it's it has changed.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We need a Broadway musical to fix everything.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Oh, we certainly do.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I have decided, in these of there's nothing to lose
and I don't understand what the fuck is going on
in the world these days, that I'm just going to
do all the things that I've always wanted or just
put aside for a while. I started taking voice lessons again.
I'm going to do a tap class. I'll take a
tap class, you will, I would. It's my favorite dance.
I talk about it actually in the Book of like
(06:20):
Book of Mormon.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I was doing that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
You sold that, but you practiced, oh for years because
I made it to the finals as a seventeen year
old for that show. And then they the last thing,
they were like, oh, we haven't seen Dylan tap yet.
And I fucked it so bad.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And you can't fudge tapping.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
No, because there can't. There's a sound, no room yeah
for error.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
No no.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And and so I then spent the next four years
like I learned that one dance, and and I was
the best one in that room. But if you had
asked me to do any other step, I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Have done it.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
That is because you learned the d Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So you're gonna do You're doing tap. You're going to
do tap.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I'm putting you on my tap list. Okay, we
have very ill tell you offline who else is.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
In the tap group.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yes, you'll like it. It's a good it's a good group.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I have tap shoes at my house. I'm not kidding.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
I bought tap shoes. I donated them.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I bought a pair last year because we did a
little thing.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And then they really weren't the right size.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
But it was just for a one off thing.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Okay, And you like, if you haven't used something within
a year, is it like it's got it's got to
leave my house?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So here's the thing with me. So we had this
very large house.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
That we sold and then we went into some rentals
and yeah, now living in an apartment, which I'm obsessed with.
I love apartment living.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Is this the one that that I saw on that
TV show?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Okay, that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, So we bought a place in that building and
then we rented a place so we have it's really
stupid what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
We go up and down the elevator. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But you don't have a lot of room for stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
There is room, but there's not like what I had.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Right, So garage is that you could just stay with stuff,
And you.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Know what, I'm at a point in my life where
I want.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
To have less totally. Do you feel that way? Are
you a purger?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, I've got you know, people have sent me these
pr packages and you know people want me to post
about it on TikTok and I don't need that much
skincare So I will, you know, the best presence for
my friends and for my family. And that's one of
my favorite things, is to like put backpacks together for
my aunts or my nieces. But I really think that
(08:22):
like minimal would be good. I do seem to be
more of a maximalist, but I am what.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You're young time. I used to be a maximalist too.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I'm trying to get a little place in London right
now so that because America feels a little scary, so
I have been looking at maybe downsizing in la getting
somewhere over there.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Do you ever go to London?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I do go to London, but I will tell you
I am a Paris girl.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Okay, that's not far, honey. We'll take the tray and.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We'll take the chunnel.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Max.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
My daughter is studying there at this semester. I'm actually
going to visit her in a couple of weeks. And
I like, you feel the same way. And I have
in looking for a place in Paris, and I've been
on due Lingo.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh honey, every day.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I mean, if that, whatever happens, I'll see you on
the channel.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
That's where we'll meet when we have away.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
But you decided London because you speak the language.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That but also theater. I'm a theater girl.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And no matter what happens, no matter where social media,
if TikTok goes away, I can always perform on a
stage and I and do cabaret.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Are you going to bring your one woman show to
the state.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That is what we're working on right now.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
My book comes out in March, and then my podcast
is going to be starting and then that's the next
plan is as I did a show in Edinburgh Fringe.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Which have you been in Scotland?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I have not.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I had to think about that.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It's so magic.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Also, I like go over seas and then it's as
if like people like want to date me over there,
which is different than America.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think it's culturally.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I think we're living through a time right now in
America where, like you know, transnis is very polarizing. I
think that it takes a very confident person, especially a
confident straight man, to you know, be with a trans woman.
And I think that even when I'm over there, I
feel less baggage, like I think other people can tell
that I don't feel like this, you know, polarizing figure
(10:19):
and when I'm there, it's just I'm a theater girl,
and so that would be kind of my game plan.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Would be to go do musicals on the West End.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I miss live theater and cabaret, and I'll to find
a good show.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Sometimes tough to find in La to go see a
musical together, but we'll find it.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Oh at the Pantagious sometimes they'll do. Oh yeah, we
could do something decent things. All right, So tell me
about paper Doll.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Why did you decide?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I mean, why'd you decide to write this book?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Now? I well, I actually sold this book in the
very beginning of my Days of Girlhood series because I've
journaled my entire life.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Explain that a little bit for people that.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Okay, so hello, my name is Dylan, and I started
this TikTok series called Days of Girlhood very accidentally because
I was transitioning.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know, I was twenty five years old. I was
doing stand up comedy.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
In LA and I think coming outs can be really
awkward and sometimes cringe, and so I tried to make
this comedy video that was like day one of being
a girl, and it kind of, you know, ignited online
and it felt like this fifty to fifty shakeup of
like half the comments being really supportive and then half
of them being you know, women who didn't necessarily support
someone like me, And so then.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
The turf things interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Yes, I didn't I didn't know what that was either,
and I think that was what was so crazy was
I was learning all this trans terminology and the types
of people that I was going to be dealing with
as I was transitioning in the public eye, and in
those first few videos were very much like trying to
show people another side to me so that they didn't
hate me. And then I was like, oh, these people
(12:00):
are really taking to this, and I think it was
helping a lot of people too, So I just kept
doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I made, you know, so many videos. But during this,
you know, these book publishers started coming to me.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
And I grew up reading like comedy like Chelsea Handler
type books and Amy Poehler, and I like an easy read.
I'm not looking for anything too crazy and I want
to laugh. And so when they came to you, I
was like, oh, of course I would love to do that,
but it was going to be just journal entries for
my first year of transition. And then as that year
wound down and then beer Gate happened, which was a
(12:33):
big thing over here, that I realized that there was
more of a story to tell there, and so kind
of the way that I healed through that experience was
writing these essays that are in the book. And I
think for right now, it's wild about the timing is
I might have finished this book, you know, over a
year ago, but it's even more important now in twenty
(12:53):
twenty five, because I think the way to fight the
hate is through trans joy and that's what I wanted
to put into the book because there's so many people
out there that want to, you know, strip me of
my existence or want to even debate my existence, and
I'm not interested in that. But wh what I am
interested in is showing my joy because that is a
(13:15):
clear example that there is there is a great life
to be had as a trans person.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I have so much joy.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I've got great family, I've got friends, I'm in relationships,
and I think that that's their worst nightmare because if
I'm succeeding and if I'm thriving and I'm happy, that
means what they're saying about someone like me isn't true.
And so that's what this book is is going through
one of the hardest times that's ever happened in my life,
(13:45):
something that I would have never imagined, and in still
finding the light at the end of the tunnel. And
I think I'm in that light right now.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Oh that makes me so happy. It also it makes
me want to cry. I don't get political on my show,
but I will tell you that I am just so
over this.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Persecution of the most marginalized. And what is the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
It's one percent less than one trucent of our population
as transgender.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
And I'm very simple, would make why are you so scared?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Well, I think that it's wild. Is like I was
never a political person, you know. I'm a musical theater girl.
I couldn't believe that my name was being said by
congress people and politicians and presidents and and I really
want people to know that nothing about my existence should
be political. And I am a human being that just
(14:38):
wants to be happy and to be loved, just like
anyone else. And if you can't see me for my womanhood,
you know, I think there's a lot of people that
even watch like your show, that might not know how
to take someone like me in. But if they can
at least approach the idea of me and who I
am with a sense of like humanhood, I think that's
(15:00):
a good start because it's so easy to cast you know, villains.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I even think about Wicked, like did you see Wicked? Obsessed?
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Of course, so on Wicked, like they even the the
Wizard talks about how there needs to be a common enemy,
you know, and that he makes the animals out to
be this enemy even though they really didn't do anything wrong.
And but it unites people, it brings people together, right,
And I feel like in not to like compare transnits
to like Wicked, but in a way that's my way
in is like they want to make someone the enemy,
(15:32):
and so they chose us right now. And what I'm
trying to remember is that like I remember when gay
marriage wasn't legal, right, I was just.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
About to say, it reminds me of of being gay
thirty five.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Years ago, yes, but even just you know fifteen, Like
I I growing up as a gay kid, I didn't
think I could get married and watching you know, people
even in my own life and at church talking about
how this was horrible and that this couldn't happen, and
now it's hard to imagine our lives that without it,
or that was ever the case.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
But that's why you're so important. Honestly, it's because when
you I've told this story before, but I have a
friend who is gay and he's very, very successful, but
we in high school. He didn't have any framework to
know what gay was right, and so he had decided
he was going to take his own life by the
(16:21):
time he was graduating because he couldn't live like that anymore.
And now he's married, as kids, successful, very happy, all
the things. But it just shows me that without you know,
examples in the world, how does anyone know that it's
a possibility. Like for you in your book you talk
about you thought you were just gay and then you
(16:44):
thought you were non binary or you were trying that on.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I think it's that we don't always have the vocabularies,
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
How would you know?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Truly?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think maybe the only reference points to transgenderism that
I knew about was like, you know, a sex worker,
law and order, and so it's it's there was no
way in for me as a four year old when
I went to my mom and said, I am a
girl for to know that that was an option. Other
than that is how I saw myself and how I felt,
(17:13):
and it's biology. Yeah, it really is, like I wish,
you know, for anyone who can't understand what I'm going
through or how I see myself, I just wish for
one second they could just transport, just for a moment.
You know, we say, you know, slip into my shoes. No, babies,
slip into.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
This my skin.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes, and they, I really feel like, would have a
very different tune to sing if they got to experience that.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And at the end of the day, like we're we
have this one life, right, this one crazy life, and
the point is to be happy, right, and so we
all do for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
And hopefully our families and our special friends.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You know, whatever it takes to make yourself happy, to
honor and love your loved ones and all the things.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
It's still makes me insane.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And I know what you're saying about the common enemy,
and I think you're one hundred percent right, but it
still makes me insane. It's not affecting anyone's life for
someone else to be who they are, so why is
it so scary to them?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Because it's different because you don't understand it.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, and I think it is. It's like a it's
having to change the way that we see something. And
I think a lot about, like someone like you, how
allyship right now is so important, and especially from other women.
And you know, I think about the Kathy Hiltons and
the people that have welcomed me into their homes and
(18:36):
invited me to their events. I think that right now,
these extremists also want to make someone like you scared
to support someone like me. Oh, I know, because that
means that if they've blocked out our allies and they've
tried to make you feel judged, you're isolated.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And well, oh my gosh, like for a.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Second, you played my mom in my music video, I know,
and I was going to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Oh, it makes me emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Not every woman in this town would do that for me,
you know, And you were my first call first of all.
But I think that we're in a time where I
feel guilty sometimes asking for allyship because I don't want
to be a nuisance to someone, especially someone that I
look up to.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Oh my gosh, Just so you know, and I'll get emotional,
But when you called me. I figured to be honest
with you, I was probably like your fourth or fifth call,
first call, thank you. I thought i'd be your fourth
or fifth call, and you told me that. But I'm
going to tell you what I saw on the set
of your music video because I want everyone to really
understand what kind of woman, what kind of human, what
(19:43):
kind of person you are. So I get to this
set and all I know is Dylan has asked me
to play her mom in her music video.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Just show up.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
We have clothes, we have hair and makeup. And I'm
a very controlling person, right And I was like, sure, whatever,
no problem, do I need to anything?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Nope, and just show up. I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So I show up, and I mean within moments, you're
the beautiful energy and everything that you are comes running and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh my god, I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Da da da da, And here's our fabulous make up
people from the Euphoria set, and and the end we
went oh and the clothes and the things. It was
the most marvelous day. I had the most fabulous time.
I got to hang out with also with Gigi Gorgeous,
who is incredible. I got to play the funniest character.
I loved all of it, but I'm gonna tell you
(20:33):
the best part. First of all, I felt like your
mamager a little bit. Like I was talking about feeling
the role. I mean, I was just watching you dance
and sing and do all the things, and I was
just swelling with pride. But here's the best moment for me.
I am sitting there getting my makeup done, and there
were trans gals there, there were cisgender gals, all all
(20:56):
different kinds of gals.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
There, and you went up to each and.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Every girl and talk to them, and you were so
invested in like, so what are you wearing? Let me
how And you said to each woman, how do you
feel in this outfit? I have never heard that before ever.
And it changed me, I mean honestly, and I pulled
that in saw it, appreciated it so much that now
(21:24):
it's become part of like you know who I am
and what I do.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Your love of other people and your pride and what
you do and how talented you are, all of it
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I think that I'm so now hyper aware because a
lot of times people aren't asking me about those things.
You know, there's things as a trans person that like
I don't necessarily feel comfortable wearing. But sometimes I'm not
asked those questions. So I now am when I'm in
a place of you know, power, or if it's my project,
I want to make sure that everyone's being taken care of.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Well, I love that, and all women feel that way.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Listen, I've had cellulite since I was like twenty, Like,
I hate it and bathing suit things and whatever. It
can be tricky, Yeah, no one ever asks those questions.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
But I really and what's so crazy about that song
even too, was that, you know, I it was after
a beer gate. I wanted to find like a fun
way to get back into you know, girlhood and earnestness
and just silliness. And there was nothing like serious about
that song, right, and the way that people took it
(22:32):
and just like hammered it because and it was tricky
for me to kind of understand too, because I was like,
is this transphobia? Did I actually, you know, do something wrong?
And then when I looked at it the lens of like, Okay,
if Katy Perry had released this song, nobody would have
had a problem with it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
They might have said it was a bad song, and it.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Wasn't a bad song. It's a great song. It was
stuck in my head for days.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It really gets in there. It's Giving Friday by Rebecca Black.
It's Friday Frida like that. I was not trying to
be the Beatles when I wrote Girlhood, No, but.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's supposed to be a fun pop summer. Put the
top down in the car, drive it.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Round, and that's what's in.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I don't know if trans people are allowed to make
that music right now, because the way that you know,
people were talking about it was as if like I
had written this horrible, you know, crazy manifesto. And I
really I think that's what's interesting about any project that
I do, whether it was my videos or the book
or the play that I wrote, it's always because I
(23:31):
have to do it, Like there's something in me that's
like this needs, this needs to happen. I have to
get this out there. And that was the same thing
with that song. I was like, I need to do
this song. And I think that what it did show
was that like trans people right now are kind of
looked at under a microscope that isn't fair, and it's
being scrutinized in a way that if you compared us
(23:52):
to our ciscounterparts, would not be a problem.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And it's so interesting because I think there's many people
that say I'm being too feminine. There's others that say
I'm not being feminal. Well, you're never going to please everyone, no,
and so I give up. I've got a lot of
people who love me. I feel gorgeous, I feel really
successful and happy, and so there's now no winning with
these people. No matter what surgery I get or it's
(24:20):
never going to be enough. So I might as well
do it the way that I feel the happiest, which.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Is the exact way to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Because if you start worrying about if you start trying
to figure out and you touched on this a little
bit with beer Gate, and even when you started the
Days of Girlhood series, you know, you talk about I
can't please everyone, and then if I try.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
To apologize to these people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Now the people that are supporting me feel this way,
I'm curious, you know, I feel for.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Me in my life that I was.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Given the I have four different kids, like different genders,
different sexualities, all the things I got.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
A whole rainbow over there, and I'm so proud of
all of them.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But I was never a kid who was like desperate
to be a parent or like Doe, I you know,
I'm you.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I wanted to be on Broadway.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And do all those things, and I got to do
a lot of things, maybe not everything, but I believe
I was given these four kids for a reason. And
I know that my kids are lucky because they have,
you know, supportive family, they have resources, but I know
a lot of kids don't. And that's why I try
to be an advocate and and because I want to
(25:33):
help kids that don't have all that. Do you feel
like you've been thrust into this role as well?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Or I feel well, it's so funny, Like some people
started commenting mother on my Instagram post and I was like, wait,
are they calling me old?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Like I didn't know what that meant. Now it's a
good thing, yes.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
And then in the book I write about I went
to Ayahuasca and this like mother IOH was like, you
are here to like provide maternal energy. And I think
that's very intimidating and also really scary for a trans
person because you know, they say that we are indoctrinating
their children when really it's like we're living our lives
and maybe if your kid sees someone who's living authentically
(26:13):
and it's like, oh, I want to be like that
person one day. A lot of my followers are not trans,
but they still see a part of themselves that they
want and they want to tap into or relate to.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, of course, I mean I don't just follow you know,
fifty year old Jewish white women.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I follow right, all guys.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And then I will say too, like knowing you, I've
learned so much about my womanhood through the women who
have helped me show me the way. And I think
that if there are if women aren't willing to help
trans people and or you know, whatever gender you might
be with a little bit of love and a little
bit of grace, I think, how are we supposed to
(26:56):
to get there and figure it out? And I think
that's why we need allies so desperately right now. And
I think that was a big part. You know, you're
surrounded by a wild group of women a lot in life,
YE think, yeah, And I've had to realize, like I'm
not going to be every girl's cup of tea, right
and that's okay, we're theater girls. Well we're champagne, honey,
(27:16):
I'll take it. And sometimes I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
A beer but not always, not always.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
But I do think that like it is, it's going
from I was the gay best friend and I you know,
I worshiped women and they loved me in a very
different capacity to now having friendships with other women and
growing with it's been so much richer but also way
more complicated and in comparing ourselves, and I think I
(27:47):
just wish there was a little bit more grace when
it came to women, women's friends, friendships with women, and
and not tearing each other down.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And yeah, well that's true across all women. I mean,
that's it's funny. I was my mom was like a
very nineteen fifties like jealous, like who did they know
Who's And that was instilled in me for a long
time and I had to really deprogram myself from that.
But I know I've done a good job because my
kids are not like that good and I do feel
(28:16):
like this younger generation is better.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I love gen Z. Yeah, I'm on the cusp and
they are.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Sait Are my kids gen Z like twenty one?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah? Oh, very much.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Yeah, gen Z, I think I'm jen X.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
They keep calling my kids call me boomer, and I'm like,
I am not a boomer. Your father is a boomer.
I am gen X.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Okay, I only know Millennial and gen Z. I'm on
the cusp of those.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
And the fact that like gen Z has even like
taken to me is so cool and crazy because I'm
very like cringe online, I make like stupid jokes.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
But you're authentic and this is the whole point, right,
If you are authentically you, and this is the whole thing,
back to not pandering to what the comments say. When
you're authentically you, your community is solid, right, and they
love you.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
And they follow you totally.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Not even in this industry. I think I've found the
people who feel authentic, and those are the people that
I want to surround myself with.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
I want to ask you this.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yes, So, as a cisgender female, the number one worst
question to ask someone is do you know what I.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Want to say?
Speaker 3 (29:22):
No?
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Are you pregnant?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Interesting?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
You cannot ask a woman yes if they are pregnant,
because that means.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
That you're judging their body.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, it means they're large or a different body shape
than you or something you feel is yes, like a
pregnant looking body thought, you cannot ever ask a person
that is there a question like that, have you had
the surgery?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Have you had your bottom surgery? What's going on downstairs?
What I think is alarming is the amount of people
who felt comfortable to ask my parents about that, because
I think it's like, how gross to like try to
not only exploit your you know, your friend's kids body,
but to like ask so openly. And I think that's
(30:08):
where part of me is very uh now, kind of
nervous to talk about things online and overshares because some
people are they don't deserve to know certain things. And
I do think that I'd never want to set a
precedent online that just because I talked about something means
that you can ask other trans people. So I've always
(30:30):
led with like, this is my story, this is my journey,
this is I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else.
And I really think that like I love sharing, like
I love talking about certain things. I love unpacking what
what I've gone through, what's happening with my body, But
just because of what we're living through right now, if
(30:52):
if there's a chance that what I say is going
to reflect poorly on the rest of the community. I'm
a lot more controlled if I'm going to say something.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think sharing is fantastic. I've diary
of them mouth often. And also you share a lot,
Gigi and NAT's share a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, till she was like og YouTuber oh yeah, and
so I getting to know her, and what you realize
too is like transist and media, it's very exploitative and
it's very much like ooh, let's follow this person until
they get these things and then we throw them out
and we find the new one, right, And getting to
know Gigi like and how she's kept her life going
(31:32):
and content in her career super inspiring. And what I've
realized is that, like now, so much of my content
doesn't have to do with transnis but and maybe less
people are watching, but it's the right people because sometimes
the other people there, the millions and millions, weren't there
for the right reasons. But the people in Edinburgh in
my two hundred and fifty seat theater.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
They're there for the right reason.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
They're there for the right rece But I also have
to say, you know, for me, I think you should
be allowed to share the things you want. Just because
you're a public person doesn't mean you have to share everything.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You can hold things. I mean, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
The only thing that bothers me with people is when
they say things like this, like if I know someone's
had a facelift, Like when I say I know, I
mean I know if you know what I mean, Like
I know that a facelift has been done, and they
go out in the world and someone says, oh, you
look so youthful, and they go the secret is water
(32:29):
and a good rest, and I'm like, and a scalpel, honey,
Like it's okay, you don't have to tell, but don't
give people false hope.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
And that's where I think with transits too, Like I
want people to know I am the most privileged version
of trans I had the guy who does Beyonce did
my makeup this morning, so I never looks great.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Thank you so much, Hi, Armando, h.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Armando, I did my own.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's what's wild about you. You're a super kid. You
can do makeup.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I can do it pretty well. But if I'm potentially
going to be on housewife, I'm gonna I'm going to
turn it enough enough for the moms. I appreciate it,
but I really think that what I've experienced is like
a one in a million, one in a billion situation,
you know, And I think I find it to be
very aspirational. But I also don't want people to think
(33:19):
that this is the norm, the norm of the only way.
There's so many ways, different timelines. I mean, I'm still
trying to get rid of the damn facial hair.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Girl.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Yeah, I know, you really, but why I.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Was still caused a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I have, you know, a size God doesn't get me
women eight and a half shoe. I've got, you know,
a size zero dress. But my God, did he give
me a lot of facial hair?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
But why did you decide to go to it? The
electrolysis over the laser.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
The electrolysis, I believe, is the only thing that's permanent, permanent,
like I think it comes back to some extent, but
much less than the laser hair.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I don't know that laser hair removal for me because
I hear.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
As well, did it you you good?
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Oh my gosh, it's insane.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I got my whole body, Yeah, me too, amazing, But
not that there's something about the hormones in our faces.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
That is like it's pesky and it's tricky.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, But I was like, if that's the thing that
I am, if that's my cross where yeah, I'm okay
with it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Okay, So that was the question you don't want people
to ask. But what do you wish people asked you?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Well, honestly, like us jumping in this conversation about theater,
like what do you love outside of your transness? Yes,
And that's for me is theater. It's laying in bed
with mac and cheese. It's like getting to talk about
all the things and the reasons that we relate to
each other outside of my body. And I also think
(34:45):
like if in relationship to transness, like I think somebody
you know what brings you joy and your transis is
a great question to ask. And for me, I think
that's my friendships with other women. It's looking in the
mirror and like feeling actually beautiful for the first time
and always being shocked that like I am now living
(35:06):
to my full extent. But I think it's it's when
you get into the you need to make sure you're
on really good terms with you know, a trans person
before you are approaching body conversations and all of that,
because it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
No, but no one.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I wouldn't want someone to be asking me questions like that.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Either, Yes and so, but you know when you're girl
talk is girl talk and so like there are like
I love you know, having a little.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, but girls don't typically sit around and talk about
like their vaginas' side of thing.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
So no, okay, good to know, thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
See I'm unless there's like a problem.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Okay, you know what I'm saying. Can you look at this?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Not people don't really even go there, so we're like, who,
who's your doctor's and you ever had this happen? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
But I think that a lot of people also are
always very interested in, like my dating life because they
want to know what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And do you like talking about dating you know I
or is that a private thing?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (36:06):
I it's tricky because I don't want to. There's especially
being a trans person in the public eye. You know,
there's a level of like, ooh, does this person want
to you know, be seen with me? Or are they
comfortable taught me talking about certain things? So I usually
I had this Dylan does Dating series on TikTok for
a while, and I would always usually have it be
like if I knew something was done, done done, and
(36:29):
I waited about a month and I was like, okay,
let's talk about this, or even like, oh my god,
there was a guy I like went. I made out
with a guy in Edinburgh like and then we like went.
I was supposed to go on a twenty minute date
with him in Amsterdam on a layover and he stood
me up and I gave it about a month, like
I had made the video and I was like, I
(36:49):
can't wait to post this, and then I did. And
so I always like a little breathing room when it
comes to dating.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, yeah, you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Like Taylor's weft writing the song right after a no.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Well, I'll write the song, but I won't release it
good And I think that. But it is really important
right now that to be seen that trans people like
can find love and we like like I very much
have a really fun dating life. And I do protect
that because I don't want my partners or anyone to
(37:20):
feel like they are going to be put on blast.
But I really want people to know that like someone
like me can find love and be happy in that way.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And like I said before, and I see this with
my kids and their friends. This next generation, they're so
much more fluid. They're so accepting, they're so nonplussed, and
it's exactly how it should be.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
No, It's also funny because I'm super attracted to like
much much older people, like I love a daddy, and
then like, cause I'm twenty eight and these like the
twenty five year olds that want to date me, I'm like, no, no,
I want the forty five for them. Yeah, yeah, but
that is it just goes to show the younger generation
is like so much more open minded, yeah, which I love.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, it's good, yeah, hopefully that.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Tell me about music.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So you did, oh all right, so you did Days
of Girlhard. You have your one woman show that you're
gonna bring here, and that.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Has music, the original music in it, mostly comedy songs.
I did one with like Ingrid Michaelson, who's one of
my favorite singers. But I don't think I'm gonna be
releasing a full album that really, honey, that I felt
that I was a kicked horse at that point because
it was like when you put yourself out, you know,
every day that we show up and we try to
(38:37):
put ourselves out there and people don't love that. So
I think the next time I would go to do music,
it would be something very different, and I think it
would be theatrical.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
But I also think maybe this song.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It's kind of giving, like Paris Hilton Stars are Blind,
where it has like a resurgence.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
So Heidi Montag, Honey, come on, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So you know, we might be sitting here fifteen years
from now and it might be at the top of
the charts.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
We just we never know.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I do believe in timing. I'm being totally serious, and
you you are so talented, and I really I think
that song is fantastic. I really, I wouldn't. I wouldn't
keep saying I really think it's fantastic. But things do
have a time and a place. And maybe now you're
meant to do more of the cabaret and more of Broadway,
and then that segues into back to pop. Who knows.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I really I think theater is I've now gotten to
try all these different things. I think it's the most
like healing. It's also actually it's real life. I'm seeing
people in a theater it's so different than sitting in
your room like loo, scrolling through comments, and it's so
helpful to know, Like sure, you don't make a lot
of money doing it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It's not about the about money.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Theater is about.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I mean, it sounds so obnoxious. It's about the craft.
But the truth is being on stage. There was enough
for any theater kid or anyone that performs like that.
There is nothing like being on stage.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Oh it's so good.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
It's the best.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It's like the thrill of some favorite musical. God, I
don't know if I have a favorite musical right now.
I mean, I mean, all I'm thinking of is Wicked,
because we were just talking about that. I do love Wicked,
but I love so many shows. I mean, my first
show very similar, I think too. What experience you had
was Annie?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, And I went to see Annie and I really thought,
because my parents had been joking with me, but I
really thought that they were gonna put the lights.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Up and be like, she can't go on? Who knows
the part?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
You were ready?
Speaker 1 (40:33):
I was ready, and I was very very disappointed when
the lights went When the lights went down and she
was there, I know, Shelley Bruce. I was like, really, Shelley, Wow, Okay,
I was totally ready.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
We're Shelley now?
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Not here? Where is Shelley now?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Shelley Shelley Hello.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I'm sure she's doing something fabulous, but you understand why
board yes, no, yeah, there's nothing like before?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
All right?
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So then what's next for you?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
You've kind of I mean, you've done everything. You're huge
on TikTok. Were you worried when TikTok was about to
go away?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I made the most embarrassing good by I.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
Saw your goodbye. Then it was like it was not
as bad as some I will.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Tell you, well, ill, did you see the people admitting
to things that they then were back the next day?
Like I like, tell that I didn't do one of
those I actually didn't have. I was like, wait, I
don't think I've lied to anyone on this app. Like
I was like, I don't have any video to post
about that. But I actually there was part of me
that was kind of freeing because I was like, well,
(41:34):
I've now spent these last three years trying to convince
people that I'm not just a TikToker, and now I
can't be a TikToker if there's no TikTok. But I
also think what was so problematic about it was that,
like that's one of the only places for people to
find transness or queerness or like, you know, just the
way that there were so many young people that were
able to get their information, their news, to see people
(41:58):
like them themselves. So that was hard and I'm glad that,
you know, there's maybe a chance to get it back now.
But ultimately, I think, like the majority of the rest
of my life, I'd like to like harness, that the
audience keep it going in the ways that it feels right.
But I want to go do all the other things,
and I think it's it's through writing more books. It's
(42:20):
Oh my god, I performed on a gay cruise last week.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I saw that.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
I loved that.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
How was that? It was the best time of my
entire fucking life.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Of course it was, you know how many friends I had.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I remember when I graduated college, like I was supposed
to go to New York, but I ended up going
to Miami to do this TV show and then out
to la But there were a lot of kids from
our musical theater department in Syracuse that went on the
cruise ships.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Gay men are amazing turns out and I'm in the
middle of the I got a call three days before
I left, uh huh, and they're like, would you could
you headline?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
And I didn't have a show built. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I didn't you know they called you three days before
the cruise to headline the cruise. Yes, you had three
days to prepare. Yes, costumes, music, everything.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I had six costume changes for backup dancers from the
cast of Mama Mia that was already on board.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
I mean, we turned this out.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Did they have a show ready for you that you
plucked into you had to create?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I wrote the show in two days.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Stop, well, thank god you do stand up and we.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Just we put I found a song called from Death
Becomes Her, which you would love.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It's called for the Gaze, and I messaged the music
composer and that is what's nice about having some Broadway
connects still. And I was like, please give me the
sheet music because I didn't have any shet music for
anything either.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
And there was an orchestra that was going to be
on board playing this shit.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
I love this and it was called for the Gaze,
and it was like, forgive me if I'm an angeneue
beveling before you, begging for your praise.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I love the gaze.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
And it was like, you know, hundreds of gay men
in this this theater and I'm rocking back and forth
while I'm singing song time on this book.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
This.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, it was just like it was like that might
be the next book because if I can just if,
I think we should all be living our life like
we are gay men on a gay cruise because they
were having a lot of fun and nobody was worried
about what was happening on the land of America.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yea?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And but was interesting too, is being there as a
woman because they I thought it was Was it all
gay men?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (44:17):
I think I was one of maybe two women on
board three that were like actually attending the cruise and
fifty five hundred gay men and I walk on. I
thought I was going to be bombarded with selfies.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
No, they didn't even see me.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
I was a ghost walking the halls of like the
Queen Elizabeth, I'm telling you. And it was the best
compliment I could have gotten because they were there to
find love.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Oh, they were there for a time tonight. Yeah, for tonight,
and I think that it was.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I was like, oh wow, no one is, no one
wants me that way, and that was actually very affirming.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I love that. It was really fun.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
All Right, so you've done all these things. What's next? Okay,
next is going to bring the One woman show over?
I can't believe love to do sort of like a
Marry Tyler Moore type TV show where I play like
a heightened version of myself eventually with little musical elements within,
you know, I bring back a good musical on TV.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
I mean, like a Tracy Ollman show.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
You could do, yes, right, And I think back to like,
oh god, crazy ex Girlfriend was this show that ran
for a couple of years and it had these really fun,
insane musical numbers, and or she watched Smash or Glee.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, of course, oh my god, Glee. That's the best,
the best. I really.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I think that like getting my story out, maybe in
a different capacity, I think scripted would be really fun
to get to show scenarios, because sometimes I think some
people have a hard time connecting with someone that's different
than them because.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It feels too real and it's too tangible.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
But if it's through a character it's a little bit
more of like a oh, this is a hypothetical of
what life could be. So I think it's great for
people to see trans people on TV in movies.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I agree. Let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I just saw someone talking about this, and I'm curious your.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Take on it.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Someone was saying, can only and this goes for anything.
Can only gay people play gay characters? Can only trans
people play trans characters? Because I feel like, you know there, yes, Like,
is there a point where it's not acting well?
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I think we're at a time where there's so few
trans characters on TV and in film that it would
be a real disservice not to have an actual trans
person playing a role. And I think it's also it
says something that's like, oh, we're scared to have a
trans person, you know, we don't want to give in.
It's almost easier for them to do it that way.
(46:41):
And I think if there was, if we got to
a place in the world where trans was so accepted
that like, sure, there's.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
A ton of characters and you know, all sorts of.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Different stories to tell, I might be a little bit
more open to having different people to But.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Don't you feel like you could play a non trans
woman hopefully.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
And that's what I think is also so frustrating, is
like auditioning for things is like when I get an audition,
I immediately have to be like, oh, is this something
that they're even open to, you know, me playing or
a lot of the times it's specifically just a trans person.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
So I think that's we have a long way to go.
But that's why I urge sort of the people that
are behind the scenes that make the decisions to show us,
because that is what's going to help fix a lot
of the mess that.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
We need modeling.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yes, we need modeling, honey, Okay, I'm going to rope
you into something hopeful.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Okay, Okay. So I know you've worked with the Trevor
Project before, all right. So I became.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Aware of the Trevor Project a few years ago through
my daughter Cat. Yes, she came home one day and
she was like, Mom, I need you to donate money
to the Trevor Project. I'm like, okay, great, what is it?
And then when I found out what it was. And
so for people that don't know the Trevor Project, boy
named Trevor took his life and they started this crisis hotline,
(48:04):
Yes center. And so this gal, James Black, who used
to be the head of Family Equality, is now the
head of the Trevor Project.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Do you know James.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I have not met James, but we know of each other.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
She's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I love her anyhow, I've been talking with her a
bunch and apparently their call center in recent times. In
the last month, I have gone up seven hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
And this is kids in crisis. And you know we
always talk about like what can we all agree on? Well,
we all agree that our kids in crisis need help, right,
and so I want to help them and give them
some more visibility. And I want to honor their workers,
their frontline.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I love them workers.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
So I'm putting together a little event. I would love
to have you be a part of it. In any way.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
I always like that's one of the organizations that I
immediately go to when I want to do something like this.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
When is this I don't know yet, okay, but but
I will let you know because I mean, it's so
crazy to me. And James was telling me that, you know,
she used to work at Schwab and they have this
software that think like a medical term that triages calls. Yeah,
so they get the people in most crisis up to
the front of the line, and Trevor Project needs that money.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Oh yeah. Well, and I mean what they're doing is incredible.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And what I will say to the people that are,
you know, claiming to say protect our children, I'm like, honey,
these are our kids that are so scared right now
and are potentially going to take their own lives if
if they don't get the love and support that they need.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, and a lot of these kids aren't getting it
from home correct or counselor is not that.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
Statement is not true the way that they are enacting
this the scenarios.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So yeah, and they're losing funding potentially, So.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It's really scary as hell. It's scary.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
I know it's scary, but don't do you feel I
have this like new sense of community that I almost
didn't feel before twenty twenty five, where I knew I
had so much support, but like it felt very broad
and now like I'm like looking to the actual people
in my life and being like I've got you and
you're saying you've got me, And it feels different.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
It does feel different.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
It means something more at this time, and that's what
I feel safe walking through the streets because I know
someone like you've has my back and I know you've
got I've got yours.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Yeah, it's like fox whole time.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
But I'm so proud of you, honestly, and I'm so
happy for all of your success and what you're putting
out in the world is pure light. Thank you, and
you should know that as your other mother. Do you
as your pretend.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Advice for me as I go through this next chapter
of my life and navigating this industry and everything, what
would you say?
Speaker 1 (50:55):
Some I would tell you to stay authentic and true
to yourself because when you do that, you can't lose.
Be bold, go for the things you want. Don't worry
so much, okay, And the biggest thing is don't worry
about the timeline, because I remember being in my twenties
and you do that mind fuck thing to yourself. You're like, well,
if I don't have that TV show by the time
(51:17):
I'm twenty nine, that'll I'm just done.
Speaker 4 (51:19):
Because if I'm thirty.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
And I don't have this, that was the best year
of your life.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
There's been many best years.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
You can only pick one.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Umm, Well, then I feel bad because it was before
I mean, I need too, I need one before kids
and before in the after. Okay, there was like a lot.
But one year in particular was when I was on
That's Life. I was starring in this TV show, this
hour long dramedy. I never thought I would do an
(51:50):
hour long with Paul Cervino and Elan Burston and Debuize.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
It was a crazy people.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
It was critically claimed, and I got up at three
thirty in the morning every day skipping to work. Could
not have been happier. Would work fifteen hours and I
loved every second of it. And then I would say,
after my kids, you know, it's funny. We had three
by in vitro, and then the last one was a surprise.
(52:18):
And so when that happened, when I had these four kids,
and I went from someone again who never like dreamed.
I thought I'd have a family, but I never really
like dreamed of how many kids. And we started late
and we were in we had unexplained it fertility, like
all the things.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
To then end up with four children.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I remember, I remember very vividly, and this isn't really
a year thing, but this is a moment that encapsulates
that period of time. I remember going out with our friends,
our couple friends, and Ace was I don't know, four
months old something and he was staying in a little
did never room for him. He was in my office
(52:59):
off our bed, and we had gone out with our friends.
We'd been drinking whatever, and at like two thirty in
the morning, I heard something and I was like, oh,
what is that?
Speaker 4 (53:08):
And I kept hearing it and then I.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Realized it was a baby grind and I was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
That's for me.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
And I remember going into the office and he was
in his little crib and I picked him up and
I made a little bottle and I remember just rocking
him and just being so happy that I felt so
complete with this very complete life and all these lovely
children that I never knew I was going to have,
(53:33):
in this beautiful marriage, and these really nice friends and
just this like great life. I'm just really happy.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Okay, well I'm hoping that I get some of that
and to having more really good years.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yes, and you have to come to my birthday party.
We will talk about that.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Oh my god. Yes, yes, that's stunt. I love you.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Thank you so much for being here. Tell everyone how
to find you on TikTok Andy.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
My book is out March eleventh, Paper doll And I
I love you, and and stay strong and I love you. Yeah.
Let's talk with Heather Dubrow starts out, well, my guest today,
she's just fabulous. They're giving her a very small intro
on my sheet here, creator and actress. That's all that's here.
She's an I con Are you kidding me? She is
an icon. I've known her for a while. She's the
most fabulous person. I have stories to tell and stories
to listen to. She's got this new incredible book called
(00:27):
paper Doll. Notes from a late Bloomer. Please welcome, Dylan Mlvaaney.
Speaker 2 (00:31):
Hi, Heather, Hi.
Speaker 3 (00:32):
I was trying to remember where, like where we met
such a fixture in my wife at this point that
where was the actual first meeting?
Speaker 4 (00:40):
Well, we were Instagram friends.
Speaker 3 (00:42):
Okay, deal right, which is how many friendships are made
these days.
Speaker 4 (00:46):
Funny.
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I find that through my podcast and through social media,
the best, best, best things that I've gotten are lifelong
friends that from all different places that I find like
I'm so not just attracted to, but like in tune with, Especially.
Speaker 3 (01:03):
After the pandemic, I feel like we had to figure
out how to make friends in a different kind of way. Yeah,
so I feel like we were connected through our friend
Jamie though.
Speaker 1 (01:11):
Jamie Greenberg friend of the show she's been on many times.
Speaker 4 (01:14):
We love Jamie. Yeah, and then we had lunch.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
Yeah, that was a cute lunch.
Speaker 4 (01:17):
It was a great lunch.
Speaker 3 (01:17):
And now I feel like I see you at the
Kathy Hilton's all the time.
Speaker 1 (01:21):
I loved your Kathy Hilton stories in the book so fun.
Speaker 3 (01:24):
She was like one of the first celebrities I ever met,
and it was like, of course, this this icon. You know,
I'm sitting in a valet and you know, she's like
I would have sworn you were a you know, a
cis woman or you know, she didn't say sis, but
it was like just one of those like pinch me moments.
Speaker 2 (01:40):
And I've had so many of those in the last
three years.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Do you get nervous all right? Because you are you
have been with so many famous people, and you've performed
with so many famous I mean, like, honestly, your your
IMDb is very impressive. Do you get stars drug still
when you talk to people or what kind of person
would make you starstruck?
Speaker 3 (02:00):
I still get a little nervous when I talk to
Paris Hilton because and she's a dear friend now, but
like you're like, what do you what do I say
right now to Paris Hilton that like and what I've
actually found as a great way to get to know
some of these like notable figures is like leading with
like oversharing, I'll be like, oh my god, so this
(02:21):
is what I'm looking up with or and it kind
of it's it throws them for a second because I
think they're used to being praised for like I love you,
I love your work, I'm obsessed, and this is kind
of something different. It's a different way in because I'm
opening myself up to them, and a lot of the
times it works out. And I think there are still
like there's some people I would love to meet. Dolly
(02:42):
Parton still, Lady Gaga's now a good friend of mine.
But there I think that it's it's seeing them as
a human being and not as a persona or a character,
because I think so often we in the limelight are
like seen as these characters.
Speaker 2 (03:00):
I think sometimes people perceive me to be this like hyper.
Speaker 3 (03:03):
Feminine trans girl that like, you know, worked with a
beer company, and they pinpoint you to be like a
few things right when where like I'm actually like the
girl that spends most of the day in bed and
I don't eat vegetables, and I sleep into one and like,
that's what my story actually is.
Speaker 1 (03:22):
Yeah, but that's okay. I mean, look at Kathy Hilton.
Kathy's so funny. We were at an event in New York, right,
and everyone's dressed to the nines at this event whatever,
and then we all go to the bar to hang
out afterwards. So we're all hanging out on the bar
and she comes downstairs. She's completely changed.
Speaker 2 (03:37):
She's wearing pajamas or something.
Speaker 1 (03:39):
Yeah, I mean, like when I say casual, I mean hair,
don't I mean casual. And She's like, yeah, I'm gonna
go for a burger now.
Speaker 4 (03:46):
This is who I really am. And I'm like, oh,
I love it well.
Speaker 3 (03:48):
And I'm now at the point where I don't even
necessarily have to watch Housewise because I'm living Housewise with everyone.
Speaker 2 (03:54):
And if I can say anything, it's that it is.
Speaker 3 (03:57):
It's one hundred percent accurate, Like like these like the
fact that I'm you know, at Kathy's house in a
circle of the housewives and I'm like hearing the tea
and being like, wait, this is actual real life. It
makes it just that much more enjoyable to watch.
Speaker 4 (04:12):
That's so funny.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
Well, you know who makes me nervous, Chris Jenner. Oh why,
I think because I met her years ago. So we
had mutual friends, these couples, and I remember being at
Allen and Tanya Fick's house and she was there with
then Bruce, and we were just at this part together,
hanging out with every had lovely conversation. Obviously years later
(04:36):
she's now this icon, she's like this thing. And so
we have mutual friends, still different friends, but mutual friends.
But I feel like every time I see her when
I get nervous, like you, I start over sharing, but
I don't think it works as well for me to
be honest, and so I don't know. I feel not nervous, writer,
I feel awkward right, And I think we're both people
(04:58):
that like to fill the space. Like I I will
always be the first person to keep the conversation for
me too.
Speaker 2 (05:03):
Well that's what's tricky too, Like.
Speaker 3 (05:04):
I'll go on a date or whatever, and I'll be
asking questions because the person won't be asking me, And
then by the end I'm like, well, they learned nothing
about me, and I know everything about their second cousin.
Speaker 4 (05:16):
But it's hard.
Speaker 3 (05:17):
That's who we are and you know what that's that's okay.
I like that about us.
Speaker 4 (05:22):
I love that you're a theater kid.
Speaker 2 (05:24):
Do you like musicals? Yeah?
Speaker 4 (05:26):
I started. Maybe you don't know this about me. I
started a musical.
Speaker 1 (05:28):
Thank god, I was a musical theater major. I thought
I was going to go to Broadway, ended up getting
cast on this TV show and moved to LA That's
the short story. So and then you know, worked as
an actress and all that, and then this crazy reality.
Speaker 2 (05:39):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (05:39):
But yeah, no, I have read like this year in particular.
So this year, as we were just talking about before
we got on the air, it started out very rough.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Oh honey, for I think most of us.
Speaker 1 (05:51):
Yeah, and it's still it's it has changed.
Speaker 2 (05:53):
We need a Broadway musical to fix everything.
Speaker 4 (05:55):
Oh, we certainly do.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
So.
Speaker 1 (05:58):
I have decided, in these of there's nothing to lose
and I don't understand what the fuck is going on
in the world these days, that I'm just going to
do all the things that I've always wanted or just
put aside for a while. I started taking voice lessons again.
I'm going to do a tap class. I'll take a
tap class, you will, I would. It's my favorite dance.
I talk about it actually in the Book of like
(06:20):
Book of Mormon.
Speaker 2 (06:21):
I was doing that.
Speaker 3 (06:21):
You sold that, but you practiced, oh for years because
I made it to the finals as a seventeen year
old for that show. And then they the last thing,
they were like, oh, we haven't seen Dylan tap yet.
And I fucked it so bad.
Speaker 1 (06:35):
And you can't fudge tapping.
Speaker 2 (06:37):
No, because there can't. There's a sound, no room yeah
for error.
Speaker 4 (06:42):
No no.
Speaker 3 (06:43):
And and so I then spent the next four years
like I learned that one dance, and and I was
the best one in that room. But if you had
asked me to do any other step, I couldn't.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
Have done it.
Speaker 4 (06:53):
That is because you learned the d Yes.
Speaker 2 (06:55):
So you're gonna do You're doing tap. You're going to
do tap.
Speaker 1 (06:57):
And I'm putting you on my tap list. Okay, we
have very ill tell you offline who else is.
Speaker 2 (07:01):
In the tap group.
Speaker 1 (07:02):
Yes, you'll like it. It's a good it's a good group.
Speaker 2 (07:05):
I have tap shoes at my house. I'm not kidding.
Speaker 4 (07:07):
I bought tap shoes. I donated them.
Speaker 1 (07:10):
I bought a pair last year because we did a
little thing.
Speaker 2 (07:13):
Huh.
Speaker 1 (07:13):
And then they really weren't the right size.
Speaker 4 (07:15):
But it was just for a one off thing.
Speaker 3 (07:17):
Okay, And you like, if you haven't used something within
a year, is it like it's got it's got to
leave my house?
Speaker 1 (07:22):
Okay.
Speaker 4 (07:22):
So here's the thing with me. So we had this
very large house.
Speaker 1 (07:25):
That we sold and then we went into some rentals
and yeah, now living in an apartment, which I'm obsessed with.
I love apartment living.
Speaker 3 (07:33):
Is this the one that that I saw on that
TV show?
Speaker 2 (07:36):
Okay, that's beautiful.
Speaker 4 (07:37):
Yeah, it's great.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
Right, So we bought a place in that building and
then we rented a place so we have it's really
stupid what we're doing.
Speaker 4 (07:43):
We go up and down the elevator. It's crazy.
Speaker 2 (07:45):
But you don't have a lot of room for stuff.
Speaker 4 (07:47):
There is room, but there's not like what I had.
Speaker 2 (07:51):
Right, So garage is that you could just stay with stuff,
And you.
Speaker 1 (07:53):
Know what, I'm at a point in my life where
I want.
Speaker 4 (07:55):
To have less totally. Do you feel that way? Are
you a purger?
Speaker 3 (08:00):
Well, I've got you know, people have sent me these
pr packages and you know people want me to post
about it on TikTok and I don't need that much
skincare So I will, you know, the best presence for
my friends and for my family. And that's one of
my favorite things, is to like put backpacks together for
my aunts or my nieces. But I really think that
(08:22):
like minimal would be good. I do seem to be
more of a maximalist, but I am what.
Speaker 4 (08:28):
You're young time. I used to be a maximalist too.
Speaker 3 (08:31):
I'm trying to get a little place in London right
now so that because America feels a little scary, so
I have been looking at maybe downsizing in la getting
somewhere over there.
Speaker 2 (08:42):
Do you ever go to London?
Speaker 1 (08:43):
I do go to London, but I will tell you
I am a Paris girl.
Speaker 2 (08:47):
Okay, that's not far, honey. We'll take the tray and.
Speaker 4 (08:49):
We'll take the chunnel.
Speaker 2 (08:51):
Max.
Speaker 1 (08:52):
My daughter is studying there at this semester. I'm actually
going to visit her in a couple of weeks. And
I like, you feel the same way. And I have
in looking for a place in Paris, and I've been
on due Lingo.
Speaker 2 (09:04):
Oh honey, every day.
Speaker 3 (09:06):
I mean, if that, whatever happens, I'll see you on
the channel.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
That's where we'll meet when we have away.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
But you decided London because you speak the language.
Speaker 2 (09:15):
That but also theater. I'm a theater girl.
Speaker 3 (09:17):
And no matter what happens, no matter where social media,
if TikTok goes away, I can always perform on a
stage and I and do cabaret.
Speaker 4 (09:26):
Are you going to bring your one woman show to
the state.
Speaker 2 (09:29):
That is what we're working on right now.
Speaker 3 (09:31):
My book comes out in March, and then my podcast
is going to be starting and then that's the next
plan is as I did a show in Edinburgh Fringe.
Speaker 2 (09:40):
Which have you been in Scotland?
Speaker 3 (09:42):
No?
Speaker 2 (09:43):
I have not.
Speaker 4 (09:43):
I had to think about that.
Speaker 2 (09:44):
It's so magic.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
Also, I like go over seas and then it's as
if like people like want to date me over there,
which is different than America.
Speaker 4 (09:54):
Why do you think that is?
Speaker 2 (09:55):
I think it's culturally.
Speaker 3 (09:56):
I think we're living through a time right now in
America where, like you know, transnis is very polarizing. I
think that it takes a very confident person, especially a
confident straight man, to you know, be with a trans woman.
And I think that even when I'm over there, I
feel less baggage, like I think other people can tell
that I don't feel like this, you know, polarizing figure
(10:19):
and when I'm there, it's just I'm a theater girl,
and so that would be kind of my game plan.
Speaker 2 (10:24):
Would be to go do musicals on the West End.
Speaker 4 (10:26):
Oh I love that.
Speaker 1 (10:28):
I miss live theater and cabaret, and I'll to find
a good show.
Speaker 3 (10:32):
Sometimes tough to find in La to go see a
musical together, but we'll find it.
Speaker 4 (10:35):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (10:35):
Oh at the Pantagious sometimes they'll do. Oh yeah, we
could do something decent things. All right, So tell me
about paper Doll.
Speaker 2 (10:46):
Why did you decide?
Speaker 4 (10:47):
I mean, why'd you decide to write this book?
Speaker 3 (10:49):
Now? I well, I actually sold this book in the
very beginning of my Days of Girlhood series because I've
journaled my entire life.
Speaker 4 (10:58):
Explain that a little bit for people that.
Speaker 3 (11:00):
Okay, so hello, my name is Dylan, and I started
this TikTok series called Days of Girlhood very accidentally because
I was transitioning.
Speaker 2 (11:11):
You know, I was twenty five years old. I was
doing stand up comedy.
Speaker 3 (11:14):
In LA and I think coming outs can be really
awkward and sometimes cringe, and so I tried to make
this comedy video that was like day one of being
a girl, and it kind of, you know, ignited online
and it felt like this fifty to fifty shakeup of
like half the comments being really supportive and then half
of them being you know, women who didn't necessarily support
someone like me, And so then.
Speaker 4 (11:36):
The turf things interesting.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
Yes, I didn't I didn't know what that was either,
and I think that was what was so crazy was
I was learning all this trans terminology and the types
of people that I was going to be dealing with
as I was transitioning in the public eye, and in
those first few videos were very much like trying to
show people another side to me so that they didn't
hate me. And then I was like, oh, these people
(12:00):
are really taking to this, and I think it was
helping a lot of people too, So I just kept
doing it.
Speaker 2 (12:05):
I made, you know, so many videos. But during this,
you know, these book publishers started coming to me.
Speaker 3 (12:10):
And I grew up reading like comedy like Chelsea Handler
type books and Amy Poehler, and I like an easy read.
I'm not looking for anything too crazy and I want
to laugh. And so when they came to you, I
was like, oh, of course I would love to do that,
but it was going to be just journal entries for
my first year of transition. And then as that year
wound down and then beer Gate happened, which was a
(12:33):
big thing over here, that I realized that there was
more of a story to tell there, and so kind
of the way that I healed through that experience was
writing these essays that are in the book. And I
think for right now, it's wild about the timing is
I might have finished this book, you know, over a
year ago, but it's even more important now in twenty
(12:53):
twenty five, because I think the way to fight the
hate is through trans joy and that's what I wanted
to put into the book because there's so many people
out there that want to, you know, strip me of
my existence or want to even debate my existence, and
I'm not interested in that. But wh what I am
interested in is showing my joy because that is a
(13:15):
clear example that there is there is a great life
to be had as a trans person.
Speaker 2 (13:23):
I have so much joy.
Speaker 3 (13:25):
I've got great family, I've got friends, I'm in relationships,
and I think that that's their worst nightmare because if
I'm succeeding and if I'm thriving and I'm happy, that
means what they're saying about someone like me isn't true.
And so that's what this book is is going through
one of the hardest times that's ever happened in my life,
(13:45):
something that I would have never imagined, and in still
finding the light at the end of the tunnel. And
I think I'm in that light right now.
Speaker 1 (13:52):
Oh that makes me so happy. It also it makes
me want to cry. I don't get political on my show,
but I will tell you that I am just so
over this.
Speaker 4 (14:03):
Persecution of the most marginalized. And what is the truth.
Speaker 1 (14:08):
It's one percent less than one trucent of our population
as transgender.
Speaker 4 (14:13):
And I'm very simple, would make why are you so scared?
Speaker 3 (14:15):
Well, I think that it's wild. Is like I was
never a political person, you know. I'm a musical theater girl.
I couldn't believe that my name was being said by
congress people and politicians and presidents and and I really
want people to know that nothing about my existence should
be political. And I am a human being that just
(14:38):
wants to be happy and to be loved, just like
anyone else. And if you can't see me for my womanhood,
you know, I think there's a lot of people that
even watch like your show, that might not know how
to take someone like me in. But if they can
at least approach the idea of me and who I
am with a sense of like humanhood, I think that's
(15:00):
a good start because it's so easy to cast you know, villains.
Speaker 2 (15:04):
I even think about Wicked, like did you see Wicked? Obsessed?
Speaker 3 (15:07):
Of course, so on Wicked, like they even the the
Wizard talks about how there needs to be a common enemy,
you know, and that he makes the animals out to
be this enemy even though they really didn't do anything wrong.
And but it unites people, it brings people together, right,
And I feel like in not to like compare transnits
to like Wicked, but in a way that's my way
in is like they want to make someone the enemy,
(15:32):
and so they chose us right now. And what I'm
trying to remember is that like I remember when gay
marriage wasn't legal, right, I was just.
Speaker 1 (15:39):
About to say, it reminds me of of being gay
thirty five.
Speaker 3 (15:43):
Years ago, yes, but even just you know fifteen, Like
I I growing up as a gay kid, I didn't
think I could get married and watching you know, people
even in my own life and at church talking about
how this was horrible and that this couldn't happen, and
now it's hard to imagine our lives that without it,
or that was ever the case.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
But that's why you're so important. Honestly, it's because when
you I've told this story before, but I have a
friend who is gay and he's very, very successful, but
we in high school. He didn't have any framework to
know what gay was right, and so he had decided
he was going to take his own life by the
(16:21):
time he was graduating because he couldn't live like that anymore.
And now he's married, as kids, successful, very happy, all
the things. But it just shows me that without you know,
examples in the world, how does anyone know that it's
a possibility. Like for you in your book you talk
about you thought you were just gay and then you
(16:44):
thought you were non binary or you were trying that on.
Speaker 3 (16:48):
I think it's that we don't always have the vocabularies,
That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 4 (16:51):
How would you know?
Speaker 2 (16:52):
Truly?
Speaker 3 (16:52):
I think maybe the only reference points to transgenderism that
I knew about was like, you know, a sex worker,
law and order, and so it's it's there was no
way in for me as a four year old when
I went to my mom and said, I am a
girl for to know that that was an option. Other
than that is how I saw myself and how I felt,
(17:13):
and it's biology. Yeah, it really is, like I wish,
you know, for anyone who can't understand what I'm going
through or how I see myself, I just wish for
one second they could just transport, just for a moment.
You know, we say, you know, slip into my shoes. No, babies,
slip into.
Speaker 2 (17:30):
This my skin.
Speaker 3 (17:31):
Yes, and they, I really feel like, would have a
very different tune to sing if they got to experience that.
Speaker 2 (17:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (17:41):
And at the end of the day, like we're we
have this one life, right, this one crazy life, and
the point is to be happy, right, and so we
all do for ourselves.
Speaker 4 (17:52):
And hopefully our families and our special friends.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
You know, whatever it takes to make yourself happy, to
honor and love your loved ones and all the things.
Speaker 4 (17:59):
It's still makes me insane.
Speaker 1 (18:00):
And I know what you're saying about the common enemy,
and I think you're one hundred percent right, but it
still makes me insane. It's not affecting anyone's life for
someone else to be who they are, so why is
it so scary to them?
Speaker 4 (18:13):
Because it's different because you don't understand it.
Speaker 3 (18:15):
Yes, and I think it is. It's like a it's
having to change the way that we see something. And
I think a lot about, like someone like you, how
allyship right now is so important, and especially from other women.
And you know, I think about the Kathy Hiltons and
the people that have welcomed me into their homes and
(18:36):
invited me to their events. I think that right now,
these extremists also want to make someone like you scared
to support someone like me. Oh, I know, because that
means that if they've blocked out our allies and they've
tried to make you feel judged, you're isolated.
Speaker 2 (18:52):
And well, oh my gosh, like for a.
Speaker 3 (18:53):
Second, you played my mom in my music video, I know,
and I was going to talk about that.
Speaker 2 (18:57):
Oh, it makes me emotional.
Speaker 3 (19:00):
Not every woman in this town would do that for me,
you know, And you were my first call first of all.
But I think that we're in a time where I
feel guilty sometimes asking for allyship because I don't want
to be a nuisance to someone, especially someone that I
look up to.
Speaker 1 (19:19):
Oh my gosh, Just so you know, and I'll get emotional,
But when you called me. I figured to be honest
with you, I was probably like your fourth or fifth call,
first call, thank you. I thought i'd be your fourth
or fifth call, and you told me that. But I'm
going to tell you what I saw on the set
of your music video because I want everyone to really
understand what kind of woman, what kind of human, what
(19:43):
kind of person you are. So I get to this
set and all I know is Dylan has asked me
to play her mom in her music video.
Speaker 2 (19:51):
Just show up.
Speaker 1 (19:52):
We have clothes, we have hair and makeup. And I'm
a very controlling person, right And I was like, sure, whatever,
no problem, do I need to anything?
Speaker 4 (20:00):
Nope, and just show up. I'm like okay.
Speaker 1 (20:04):
So I show up, and I mean within moments, you're
the beautiful energy and everything that you are comes running and.
Speaker 2 (20:11):
Oh my god, I'm so glad you're here.
Speaker 1 (20:13):
Da da da da, And here's our fabulous make up
people from the Euphoria set, and and the end we
went oh and the clothes and the things. It was
the most marvelous day. I had the most fabulous time.
I got to hang out with also with Gigi Gorgeous,
who is incredible. I got to play the funniest character.
I loved all of it, but I'm gonna tell you
(20:33):
the best part. First of all, I felt like your
mamager a little bit. Like I was talking about feeling
the role. I mean, I was just watching you dance
and sing and do all the things, and I was
just swelling with pride. But here's the best moment for me.
I am sitting there getting my makeup done, and there
were trans gals there, there were cisgender gals, all all
(20:56):
different kinds of gals.
Speaker 4 (20:57):
There, and you went up to each and.
Speaker 1 (21:01):
Every girl and talk to them, and you were so
invested in like, so what are you wearing? Let me
how And you said to each woman, how do you
feel in this outfit? I have never heard that before ever.
And it changed me, I mean honestly, and I pulled
that in saw it, appreciated it so much that now
(21:24):
it's become part of like you know who I am
and what I do.
Speaker 4 (21:28):
It was amazing.
Speaker 1 (21:30):
Your love of other people and your pride and what
you do and how talented you are, all of it
was amazing.
Speaker 2 (21:39):
I thank you.
Speaker 3 (21:40):
I think that I'm so now hyper aware because a
lot of times people aren't asking me about those things.
You know, there's things as a trans person that like
I don't necessarily feel comfortable wearing. But sometimes I'm not
asked those questions. So I now am when I'm in
a place of you know, power, or if it's my project,
I want to make sure that everyone's being taken care of.
Speaker 4 (21:59):
Well, I love that, and all women feel that way.
Speaker 1 (22:01):
Listen, I've had cellulite since I was like twenty, Like,
I hate it and bathing suit things and whatever. It
can be tricky, Yeah, no one ever asks those questions.
Speaker 3 (22:10):
But I really and what's so crazy about that song
even too, was that, you know, I it was after
a beer gate. I wanted to find like a fun
way to get back into you know, girlhood and earnestness
and just silliness. And there was nothing like serious about
that song, right, and the way that people took it
(22:32):
and just like hammered it because and it was tricky
for me to kind of understand too, because I was like,
is this transphobia? Did I actually, you know, do something wrong?
And then when I looked at it the lens of like, Okay,
if Katy Perry had released this song, nobody would have
had a problem with it.
Speaker 2 (22:48):
They might have said it was a bad song, and it.
Speaker 4 (22:50):
Wasn't a bad song. It's a great song. It was
stuck in my head for days.
Speaker 3 (22:54):
It really gets in there. It's Giving Friday by Rebecca Black.
It's Friday Frida like that. I was not trying to
be the Beatles when I wrote Girlhood, No, but.
Speaker 4 (23:03):
It's supposed to be a fun pop summer. Put the
top down in the car, drive it.
Speaker 2 (23:08):
Round, and that's what's in.
Speaker 3 (23:10):
I don't know if trans people are allowed to make
that music right now, because the way that you know,
people were talking about it was as if like I
had written this horrible, you know, crazy manifesto. And I
really I think that's what's interesting about any project that
I do, whether it was my videos or the book
or the play that I wrote, it's always because I
(23:31):
have to do it, Like there's something in me that's
like this needs, this needs to happen. I have to
get this out there. And that was the same thing
with that song. I was like, I need to do
this song. And I think that what it did show
was that like trans people right now are kind of
looked at under a microscope that isn't fair, and it's
being scrutinized in a way that if you compared us
(23:52):
to our ciscounterparts, would not be a problem.
Speaker 2 (23:56):
Right.
Speaker 3 (23:57):
And it's so interesting because I think there's many people
that say I'm being too feminine. There's others that say
I'm not being feminal. Well, you're never going to please everyone, no,
and so I give up. I've got a lot of
people who love me. I feel gorgeous, I feel really
successful and happy, and so there's now no winning with
these people. No matter what surgery I get or it's
(24:20):
never going to be enough. So I might as well
do it the way that I feel the happiest, which.
Speaker 4 (24:26):
Is the exact way to do it.
Speaker 1 (24:27):
Because if you start worrying about if you start trying
to figure out and you touched on this a little
bit with beer Gate, and even when you started the
Days of Girlhood series, you know, you talk about I
can't please everyone, and then if I try.
Speaker 4 (24:43):
To apologize to these people.
Speaker 1 (24:45):
Now the people that are supporting me feel this way,
I'm curious, you know, I feel for.
Speaker 4 (24:50):
Me in my life that I was.
Speaker 1 (24:53):
Given the I have four different kids, like different genders,
different sexualities, all the things I got.
Speaker 4 (24:58):
A whole rainbow over there, and I'm so proud of
all of them.
Speaker 1 (25:03):
But I was never a kid who was like desperate
to be a parent or like Doe, I you know,
I'm you.
Speaker 4 (25:10):
I wanted to be on Broadway.
Speaker 1 (25:12):
And do all those things, and I got to do
a lot of things, maybe not everything, but I believe
I was given these four kids for a reason. And
I know that my kids are lucky because they have,
you know, supportive family, they have resources, but I know
a lot of kids don't. And that's why I try
to be an advocate and and because I want to
(25:33):
help kids that don't have all that. Do you feel
like you've been thrust into this role as well?
Speaker 3 (25:38):
Or I feel well, it's so funny, Like some people
started commenting mother on my Instagram post and I was like, wait,
are they calling me old?
Speaker 2 (25:46):
Like I didn't know what that meant. Now it's a
good thing, yes.
Speaker 3 (25:49):
And then in the book I write about I went
to Ayahuasca and this like mother IOH was like, you
are here to like provide maternal energy. And I think
that's very intimidating and also really scary for a trans
person because you know, they say that we are indoctrinating
their children when really it's like we're living our lives
and maybe if your kid sees someone who's living authentically
(26:13):
and it's like, oh, I want to be like that
person one day. A lot of my followers are not trans,
but they still see a part of themselves that they
want and they want to tap into or relate to.
Speaker 1 (26:24):
Well, of course, I mean I don't just follow you know,
fifty year old Jewish white women.
Speaker 4 (26:30):
I follow right, all guys.
Speaker 3 (26:33):
And then I will say too, like knowing you, I've
learned so much about my womanhood through the women who
have helped me show me the way. And I think
that if there are if women aren't willing to help
trans people and or you know, whatever gender you might
be with a little bit of love and a little
bit of grace, I think, how are we supposed to
(26:56):
to get there and figure it out? And I think
that's why we need allies so desperately right now. And
I think that was a big part. You know, you're
surrounded by a wild group of women a lot in life,
YE think, yeah, And I've had to realize, like I'm
not going to be every girl's cup of tea, right
and that's okay, we're theater girls. Well we're champagne, honey,
(27:16):
I'll take it. And sometimes I'm.
Speaker 1 (27:18):
A beer but not always, not always.
Speaker 3 (27:23):
But I do think that like it is, it's going
from I was the gay best friend and I you know,
I worshiped women and they loved me in a very
different capacity to now having friendships with other women and
growing with it's been so much richer but also way
more complicated and in comparing ourselves, and I think I
(27:47):
just wish there was a little bit more grace when
it came to women, women's friends, friendships with women, and
and not tearing each other down.
Speaker 1 (27:56):
And yeah, well that's true across all women. I mean,
that's it's funny. I was my mom was like a
very nineteen fifties like jealous, like who did they know
Who's And that was instilled in me for a long
time and I had to really deprogram myself from that.
But I know I've done a good job because my
kids are not like that good and I do feel
(28:16):
like this younger generation is better.
Speaker 2 (28:19):
I love gen Z. Yeah, I'm on the cusp and
they are.
Speaker 4 (28:22):
Sait Are my kids gen Z like twenty one?
Speaker 2 (28:24):
Yeah? Oh, very much.
Speaker 4 (28:25):
Yeah, gen Z, I think I'm jen X.
Speaker 1 (28:28):
They keep calling my kids call me boomer, and I'm like,
I am not a boomer. Your father is a boomer.
I am gen X.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
Okay, I only know Millennial and gen Z. I'm on
the cusp of those.
Speaker 3 (28:37):
And the fact that like gen Z has even like
taken to me is so cool and crazy because I'm
very like cringe online, I make like stupid jokes.
Speaker 1 (28:46):
But you're authentic and this is the whole point, right,
If you are authentically you, and this is the whole thing,
back to not pandering to what the comments say. When
you're authentically you, your community is solid, right, and they
love you.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
And they follow you totally.
Speaker 3 (29:00):
Not even in this industry. I think I've found the
people who feel authentic, and those are the people that
I want to surround myself with.
Speaker 4 (29:12):
I want to ask you this.
Speaker 1 (29:13):
Yes, So, as a cisgender female, the number one worst
question to ask someone is do you know what I.
Speaker 4 (29:21):
Want to say?
Speaker 3 (29:22):
No?
Speaker 4 (29:22):
Are you pregnant?
Speaker 2 (29:23):
Interesting?
Speaker 1 (29:24):
You cannot ask a woman yes if they are pregnant,
because that means.
Speaker 2 (29:30):
That you're judging their body.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Yes, it means they're large or a different body shape
than you or something you feel is yes, like a
pregnant looking body thought, you cannot ever ask a person
that is there a question like that, have you had
the surgery?
Speaker 2 (29:46):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (29:46):
Have you had your bottom surgery? What's going on downstairs?
What I think is alarming is the amount of people
who felt comfortable to ask my parents about that, because
I think it's like, how gross to like try to
not only exploit your you know, your friend's kids body,
but to like ask so openly. And I think that's
(30:08):
where part of me is very uh now, kind of
nervous to talk about things online and overshares because some
people are they don't deserve to know certain things. And
I do think that I'd never want to set a
precedent online that just because I talked about something means
that you can ask other trans people. So I've always
(30:30):
led with like, this is my story, this is my journey,
this is I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone else.
And I really think that like I love sharing, like
I love talking about certain things. I love unpacking what
what I've gone through, what's happening with my body, But
just because of what we're living through right now, if
(30:52):
if there's a chance that what I say is going
to reflect poorly on the rest of the community. I'm
a lot more controlled if I'm going to say something.
Speaker 1 (31:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think sharing is fantastic. I've diary
of them mouth often. And also you share a lot,
Gigi and NAT's share a lot.
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, till she was like og YouTuber oh yeah, and
so I getting to know her, and what you realize
too is like transist and media, it's very exploitative and
it's very much like ooh, let's follow this person until
they get these things and then we throw them out
and we find the new one, right, And getting to
know Gigi like and how she's kept her life going
(31:32):
and content in her career super inspiring. And what I've
realized is that, like now, so much of my content
doesn't have to do with transnis but and maybe less
people are watching, but it's the right people because sometimes
the other people there, the millions and millions, weren't there
for the right reasons. But the people in Edinburgh in
my two hundred and fifty seat theater.
Speaker 4 (31:53):
They're there for the right reason.
Speaker 1 (31:54):
They're there for the right rece But I also have
to say, you know, for me, I think you should
be allowed to share the things you want. Just because
you're a public person doesn't mean you have to share everything.
Speaker 4 (32:06):
You can hold things. I mean, I'll tell you.
Speaker 1 (32:08):
The only thing that bothers me with people is when
they say things like this, like if I know someone's
had a facelift, Like when I say I know, I
mean I know if you know what I mean, Like
I know that a facelift has been done, and they
go out in the world and someone says, oh, you
look so youthful, and they go the secret is water
(32:29):
and a good rest, and I'm like, and a scalpel, honey,
Like it's okay, you don't have to tell, but don't
give people false hope.
Speaker 3 (32:36):
And that's where I think with transits too, Like I
want people to know I am the most privileged version
of trans I had the guy who does Beyonce did
my makeup this morning, so I never looks great.
Speaker 2 (32:47):
Thank you so much, Hi, Armando, h.
Speaker 4 (32:50):
Armando, I did my own.
Speaker 2 (32:52):
That's what's wild about you. You're a super kid. You
can do makeup.
Speaker 3 (32:56):
I can do it pretty well. But if I'm potentially
going to be on housewife, I'm gonna I'm going to
turn it enough enough for the moms. I appreciate it,
but I really think that what I've experienced is like
a one in a million, one in a billion situation,
you know, And I think I find it to be
very aspirational. But I also don't want people to think
(33:19):
that this is the norm, the norm of the only way.
There's so many ways, different timelines. I mean, I'm still
trying to get rid of the damn facial hair.
Speaker 2 (33:26):
Girl.
Speaker 4 (33:26):
Yeah, I know, you really, but why I.
Speaker 2 (33:28):
Was still caused a lot of things.
Speaker 3 (33:31):
I have, you know, a size God doesn't get me
women eight and a half shoe. I've got, you know,
a size zero dress. But my God, did he give
me a lot of facial hair?
Speaker 4 (33:42):
But why did you decide to go to it? The
electrolysis over the laser.
Speaker 3 (33:46):
The electrolysis, I believe, is the only thing that's permanent, permanent,
like I think it comes back to some extent, but
much less than the laser hair.
Speaker 1 (33:55):
I don't know that laser hair removal for me because
I hear.
Speaker 2 (34:00):
As well, did it you you good?
Speaker 4 (34:02):
Oh my gosh, it's insane.
Speaker 3 (34:04):
I got my whole body, Yeah, me too, amazing, But
not that there's something about the hormones in our faces.
Speaker 2 (34:11):
That is like it's pesky and it's tricky.
Speaker 3 (34:13):
Yeah, But I was like, if that's the thing that
I am, if that's my cross where yeah, I'm okay
with it.
Speaker 1 (34:19):
Okay, So that was the question you don't want people
to ask. But what do you wish people asked you?
Speaker 2 (34:25):
Oh?
Speaker 3 (34:25):
Well, honestly, like us jumping in this conversation about theater,
like what do you love outside of your transness? Yes,
And that's for me is theater. It's laying in bed
with mac and cheese. It's like getting to talk about
all the things and the reasons that we relate to
each other outside of my body. And I also think
(34:45):
like if in relationship to transness, like I think somebody
you know what brings you joy and your transis is
a great question to ask. And for me, I think
that's my friendships with other women. It's looking in the
mirror and like feeling actually beautiful for the first time
and always being shocked that like I am now living
(35:06):
to my full extent. But I think it's it's when
you get into the you need to make sure you're
on really good terms with you know, a trans person
before you are approaching body conversations and all of that,
because it doesn't feel good.
Speaker 4 (35:23):
No, but no one.
Speaker 1 (35:24):
I wouldn't want someone to be asking me questions like that.
Speaker 3 (35:27):
Either, Yes and so, but you know when you're girl
talk is girl talk and so like there are like
I love you know, having a little.
Speaker 1 (35:34):
Yeah, but girls don't typically sit around and talk about
like their vaginas' side of thing.
Speaker 2 (35:38):
So no, okay, good to know, thank you.
Speaker 1 (35:41):
See I'm unless there's like a problem.
Speaker 2 (35:43):
Okay, you know what I'm saying. Can you look at this?
Speaker 4 (35:45):
Yeah?
Speaker 1 (35:47):
Not people don't really even go there, so we're like, who,
who's your doctor's and you ever had this happen? Yeah?
Speaker 3 (35:54):
But I think that a lot of people also are
always very interested in, like my dating life because they
want to know what that looks like.
Speaker 1 (36:01):
And do you like talking about dating you know I
or is that a private thing?
Speaker 2 (36:06):
Yeah?
Speaker 3 (36:06):
I it's tricky because I don't want to. There's especially
being a trans person in the public eye. You know,
there's a level of like, ooh, does this person want
to you know, be seen with me? Or are they
comfortable taught me talking about certain things? So I usually
I had this Dylan does Dating series on TikTok for
a while, and I would always usually have it be
like if I knew something was done, done done, and
(36:29):
I waited about a month and I was like, okay,
let's talk about this, or even like, oh my god,
there was a guy I like went. I made out
with a guy in Edinburgh like and then we like went.
I was supposed to go on a twenty minute date
with him in Amsterdam on a layover and he stood
me up and I gave it about a month, like
I had made the video and I was like, I
(36:49):
can't wait to post this, and then I did. And
so I always like a little breathing room when it
comes to dating.
Speaker 2 (36:55):
Yeah, yeah, you're not.
Speaker 1 (36:56):
Like Taylor's weft writing the song right after a no.
Speaker 3 (36:59):
Well, I'll write the song, but I won't release it
good And I think that. But it is really important
right now that to be seen that trans people like
can find love and we like like I very much
have a really fun dating life. And I do protect
that because I don't want my partners or anyone to
(37:20):
feel like they are going to be put on blast.
But I really want people to know that like someone
like me can find love and be happy in that way.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
And like I said before, and I see this with
my kids and their friends. This next generation, they're so
much more fluid. They're so accepting, they're so nonplussed, and
it's exactly how it should be.
Speaker 3 (37:45):
No, It's also funny because I'm super attracted to like
much much older people, like I love a daddy, and
then like, cause I'm twenty eight and these like the
twenty five year olds that want to date me, I'm like, no, no,
I want the forty five for them. Yeah, yeah, but
that is it just goes to show the younger generation
is like so much more open minded, yeah, which I love.
Speaker 2 (38:06):
Yeah, it's good, yeah, hopefully that.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
I mean.
Speaker 4 (38:09):
Tell me about music.
Speaker 1 (38:10):
So you did, oh all right, so you did Days
of Girlhard. You have your one woman show that you're
gonna bring here, and that.
Speaker 3 (38:17):
Has music, the original music in it, mostly comedy songs.
I did one with like Ingrid Michaelson, who's one of
my favorite singers. But I don't think I'm gonna be
releasing a full album that really, honey, that I felt
that I was a kicked horse at that point because
it was like when you put yourself out, you know,
every day that we show up and we try to
(38:37):
put ourselves out there and people don't love that. So
I think the next time I would go to do music,
it would be something very different, and I think it
would be theatrical.
Speaker 2 (38:48):
But I also think maybe this song.
Speaker 3 (38:51):
It's kind of giving, like Paris Hilton Stars are Blind,
where it has like a resurgence.
Speaker 2 (38:55):
So Heidi Montag, Honey, come on, That's what I'm saying.
Speaker 3 (39:00):
So you know, we might be sitting here fifteen years
from now and it might be at the top of
the charts.
Speaker 2 (39:05):
We just we never know.
Speaker 1 (39:06):
I do believe in timing. I'm being totally serious, and
you you are so talented, and I really I think
that song is fantastic. I really, I wouldn't. I wouldn't
keep saying I really think it's fantastic. But things do
have a time and a place. And maybe now you're
meant to do more of the cabaret and more of Broadway,
and then that segues into back to pop. Who knows.
Speaker 3 (39:27):
I really I think theater is I've now gotten to
try all these different things. I think it's the most
like healing. It's also actually it's real life. I'm seeing
people in a theater it's so different than sitting in
your room like loo, scrolling through comments, and it's so
helpful to know, Like sure, you don't make a lot
of money doing it.
Speaker 1 (39:47):
It's not about the about money.
Speaker 4 (39:49):
Theater is about.
Speaker 1 (39:50):
I mean, it sounds so obnoxious. It's about the craft.
But the truth is being on stage. There was enough
for any theater kid or anyone that performs like that.
There is nothing like being on stage.
Speaker 2 (40:01):
Oh it's so good.
Speaker 4 (40:02):
It's the best.
Speaker 1 (40:03):
It's like the thrill of some favorite musical. God, I
don't know if I have a favorite musical right now.
I mean, I mean, all I'm thinking of is Wicked,
because we were just talking about that. I do love Wicked,
but I love so many shows. I mean, my first
show very similar, I think too. What experience you had
was Annie?
Speaker 2 (40:22):
Oh my god?
Speaker 1 (40:22):
Yeah, And I went to see Annie and I really thought,
because my parents had been joking with me, but I
really thought that they were gonna put the lights.
Speaker 4 (40:29):
Up and be like, she can't go on? Who knows
the part?
Speaker 2 (40:33):
You were ready?
Speaker 1 (40:33):
I was ready, and I was very very disappointed when
the lights went When the lights went down and she
was there, I know, Shelley Bruce. I was like, really, Shelley, Wow, Okay,
I was totally ready.
Speaker 2 (40:47):
We're Shelley now?
Speaker 4 (40:49):
Not here? Where is Shelley now?
Speaker 2 (40:52):
Shelley Shelley Hello.
Speaker 1 (40:54):
I'm sure she's doing something fabulous, but you understand why
board yes, no, yeah, there's nothing like before?
Speaker 2 (41:00):
All right?
Speaker 4 (41:00):
So then what's next for you?
Speaker 1 (41:01):
You've kind of I mean, you've done everything. You're huge
on TikTok. Were you worried when TikTok was about to
go away?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
I made the most embarrassing good by I.
Speaker 4 (41:10):
Saw your goodbye. Then it was like it was not
as bad as some I will.
Speaker 3 (41:13):
Tell you, well, ill, did you see the people admitting
to things that they then were back the next day?
Like I like, tell that I didn't do one of
those I actually didn't have. I was like, wait, I
don't think I've lied to anyone on this app. Like
I was like, I don't have any video to post
about that. But I actually there was part of me
that was kind of freeing because I was like, well,
(41:34):
I've now spent these last three years trying to convince
people that I'm not just a TikToker, and now I
can't be a TikToker if there's no TikTok. But I
also think what was so problematic about it was that,
like that's one of the only places for people to
find transness or queerness or like, you know, just the
way that there were so many young people that were
able to get their information, their news, to see people
(41:58):
like them themselves. So that was hard and I'm glad that,
you know, there's maybe a chance to get it back now.
But ultimately, I think, like the majority of the rest
of my life, I'd like to like harness, that the
audience keep it going in the ways that it feels right.
But I want to go do all the other things,
and I think it's it's through writing more books. It's
(42:20):
Oh my god, I performed on a gay cruise last week.
Speaker 2 (42:22):
I saw that.
Speaker 4 (42:23):
I loved that.
Speaker 2 (42:25):
How was that? It was the best time of my
entire fucking life.
Speaker 4 (42:28):
Of course it was, you know how many friends I had.
Speaker 1 (42:30):
I remember when I graduated college, like I was supposed
to go to New York, but I ended up going
to Miami to do this TV show and then out
to la But there were a lot of kids from
our musical theater department in Syracuse that went on the
cruise ships.
Speaker 3 (42:42):
Gay men are amazing turns out and I'm in the
middle of the I got a call three days before
I left, uh huh, and they're like, would you could
you headline?
Speaker 2 (42:51):
And I didn't have a show built. I didn't.
Speaker 1 (42:52):
I didn't you know they called you three days before
the cruise to headline the cruise. Yes, you had three
days to prepare. Yes, costumes, music, everything.
Speaker 3 (42:59):
I had six costume changes for backup dancers from the
cast of Mama Mia that was already on board.
Speaker 2 (43:04):
I mean, we turned this out.
Speaker 1 (43:07):
Did they have a show ready for you that you
plucked into you had to create?
Speaker 2 (43:10):
I wrote the show in two days.
Speaker 1 (43:12):
Stop, well, thank god you do stand up and we.
Speaker 3 (43:15):
Just we put I found a song called from Death
Becomes Her, which you would love.
Speaker 4 (43:19):
I haven't seen it.
Speaker 3 (43:20):
It's called for the Gaze, and I messaged the music
composer and that is what's nice about having some Broadway
connects still. And I was like, please give me the
sheet music because I didn't have any shet music for
anything either.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
And there was an orchestra that was going to be
on board playing this shit.
Speaker 3 (43:33):
I love this and it was called for the Gaze,
and it was like, forgive me if I'm an angeneue
beveling before you, begging for your praise.
Speaker 2 (43:43):
I love the gaze.
Speaker 3 (43:44):
And it was like, you know, hundreds of gay men
in this this theater and I'm rocking back and forth
while I'm singing song time on this book.
Speaker 2 (43:51):
This.
Speaker 3 (43:52):
Yeah, it was just like it was like that might
be the next book because if I can just if,
I think we should all be living our life like
we are gay men on a gay cruise because they
were having a lot of fun and nobody was worried
about what was happening on the land of America.
Speaker 4 (44:10):
Isn't that crazy?
Speaker 2 (44:11):
Yea?
Speaker 3 (44:11):
And but was interesting too, is being there as a
woman because they I thought it was Was it all
gay men?
Speaker 2 (44:16):
Yes?
Speaker 3 (44:17):
I think I was one of maybe two women on
board three that were like actually attending the cruise and
fifty five hundred gay men and I walk on. I
thought I was going to be bombarded with selfies.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
No, they didn't even see me.
Speaker 3 (44:29):
I was a ghost walking the halls of like the
Queen Elizabeth, I'm telling you. And it was the best
compliment I could have gotten because they were there to
find love.
Speaker 2 (44:38):
Oh, they were there for a time tonight. Yeah, for tonight,
and I think that it was.
Speaker 3 (44:44):
I was like, oh wow, no one is, no one
wants me that way, and that was actually very affirming.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I love that. It was really fun.
Speaker 3 (44:51):
All Right, so you've done all these things. What's next? Okay,
next is going to bring the One woman show over?
I can't believe love to do sort of like a
Marry Tyler Moore type TV show where I play like
a heightened version of myself eventually with little musical elements within,
you know, I bring back a good musical on TV.
Speaker 4 (45:09):
I mean, like a Tracy Ollman show.
Speaker 3 (45:11):
You could do, yes, right, And I think back to like,
oh god, crazy ex Girlfriend was this show that ran
for a couple of years and it had these really fun,
insane musical numbers, and or she watched Smash or Glee.
Speaker 2 (45:23):
Yeah, of course, oh my god, Glee. That's the best,
the best. I really.
Speaker 3 (45:28):
I think that like getting my story out, maybe in
a different capacity, I think scripted would be really fun
to get to show scenarios, because sometimes I think some
people have a hard time connecting with someone that's different
than them because.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
It feels too real and it's too tangible.
Speaker 3 (45:46):
But if it's through a character it's a little bit
more of like a oh, this is a hypothetical of
what life could be. So I think it's great for
people to see trans people on TV in movies.
Speaker 4 (45:57):
I agree. Let me ask you this.
Speaker 1 (45:58):
I just saw someone talking about this, and I'm curious your.
Speaker 4 (46:01):
Take on it.
Speaker 1 (46:02):
Someone was saying, can only and this goes for anything.
Can only gay people play gay characters? Can only trans
people play trans characters? Because I feel like, you know there, yes, Like,
is there a point where it's not acting well?
Speaker 3 (46:19):
I think we're at a time where there's so few
trans characters on TV and in film that it would
be a real disservice not to have an actual trans
person playing a role. And I think it's also it
says something that's like, oh, we're scared to have a
trans person, you know, we don't want to give in.
It's almost easier for them to do it that way.
(46:41):
And I think if there was, if we got to
a place in the world where trans was so accepted
that like, sure, there's.
Speaker 2 (46:49):
A ton of characters and you know, all sorts of.
Speaker 3 (46:51):
Different stories to tell, I might be a little bit
more open to having different people to But.
Speaker 1 (46:57):
Don't you feel like you could play a non trans
woman hopefully.
Speaker 2 (47:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 3 (47:02):
And that's what I think is also so frustrating, is
like auditioning for things is like when I get an audition,
I immediately have to be like, oh, is this something
that they're even open to, you know, me playing or
a lot of the times it's specifically just a trans person.
Speaker 2 (47:17):
Right.
Speaker 3 (47:18):
So I think that's we have a long way to go.
But that's why I urge sort of the people that
are behind the scenes that make the decisions to show us,
because that is what's going to help fix a lot
of the mess that.
Speaker 4 (47:31):
We need modeling.
Speaker 1 (47:32):
Yes, we need modeling, honey, Okay, I'm going to rope
you into something hopeful.
Speaker 4 (47:37):
Okay, Okay. So I know you've worked with the Trevor
Project before, all right. So I became.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
Aware of the Trevor Project a few years ago through
my daughter Cat. Yes, she came home one day and
she was like, Mom, I need you to donate money
to the Trevor Project. I'm like, okay, great, what is it?
And then when I found out what it was. And
so for people that don't know the Trevor Project, boy
named Trevor took his life and they started this crisis hotline,
(48:04):
Yes center. And so this gal, James Black, who used
to be the head of Family Equality, is now the
head of the Trevor Project.
Speaker 4 (48:11):
Do you know James.
Speaker 2 (48:12):
I have not met James, but we know of each other.
Speaker 4 (48:14):
She's amazing.
Speaker 1 (48:15):
I love her anyhow, I've been talking with her a
bunch and apparently their call center in recent times. In
the last month, I have gone up seven hundred percent.
Speaker 2 (48:30):
Yep.
Speaker 1 (48:30):
And this is kids in crisis. And you know we
always talk about like what can we all agree on? Well,
we all agree that our kids in crisis need help, right,
and so I want to help them and give them
some more visibility. And I want to honor their workers,
their frontline.
Speaker 2 (48:47):
I love them workers.
Speaker 1 (48:48):
So I'm putting together a little event. I would love
to have you be a part of it. In any way.
Speaker 3 (48:54):
I always like that's one of the organizations that I
immediately go to when I want to do something like this.
Speaker 1 (49:00):
When is this I don't know yet, okay, but but
I will let you know because I mean, it's so
crazy to me. And James was telling me that, you know,
she used to work at Schwab and they have this
software that think like a medical term that triages calls. Yeah,
so they get the people in most crisis up to
the front of the line, and Trevor Project needs that money.
Speaker 2 (49:19):
Oh yeah. Well, and I mean what they're doing is incredible.
Speaker 3 (49:23):
And what I will say to the people that are,
you know, claiming to say protect our children, I'm like, honey,
these are our kids that are so scared right now
and are potentially going to take their own lives if
if they don't get the love and support that they need.
Speaker 1 (49:41):
Yeah, and a lot of these kids aren't getting it
from home correct or counselor is not that.
Speaker 3 (49:45):
Statement is not true the way that they are enacting
this the scenarios.
Speaker 1 (49:51):
So yeah, and they're losing funding potentially, So.
Speaker 2 (49:55):
It's really scary as hell. It's scary.
Speaker 3 (49:57):
I know it's scary, but don't do you feel I
have this like new sense of community that I almost
didn't feel before twenty twenty five, where I knew I
had so much support, but like it felt very broad
and now like I'm like looking to the actual people
in my life and being like I've got you and
you're saying you've got me, And it feels different.
Speaker 4 (50:17):
It does feel different.
Speaker 3 (50:19):
It means something more at this time, and that's what
I feel safe walking through the streets because I know
someone like you've has my back and I know you've
got I've got yours.
Speaker 4 (50:32):
Yeah, it's like fox whole time.
Speaker 1 (50:34):
But I'm so proud of you, honestly, and I'm so
happy for all of your success and what you're putting
out in the world is pure light. Thank you, and
you should know that as your other mother. Do you
as your pretend.
Speaker 3 (50:47):
Advice for me as I go through this next chapter
of my life and navigating this industry and everything, what
would you say?
Speaker 1 (50:55):
Some I would tell you to stay authentic and true
to yourself because when you do that, you can't lose.
Be bold, go for the things you want. Don't worry
so much, okay, And the biggest thing is don't worry
about the timeline, because I remember being in my twenties
and you do that mind fuck thing to yourself. You're like, well,
if I don't have that TV show by the time
(51:17):
I'm twenty nine, that'll I'm just done.
Speaker 4 (51:19):
Because if I'm thirty.
Speaker 1 (51:20):
And I don't have this, that was the best year
of your life.
Speaker 4 (51:24):
There's been many best years.
Speaker 2 (51:27):
You can only pick one.
Speaker 1 (51:28):
Umm, Well, then I feel bad because it was before
I mean, I need too, I need one before kids
and before in the after. Okay, there was like a lot.
But one year in particular was when I was on
That's Life. I was starring in this TV show, this
hour long dramedy. I never thought I would do an
(51:50):
hour long with Paul Cervino and Elan Burston and Debuize.
Speaker 4 (51:53):
It was a crazy people.
Speaker 1 (51:54):
It was critically claimed, and I got up at three
thirty in the morning every day skipping to work. Could
not have been happier. Would work fifteen hours and I
loved every second of it. And then I would say,
after my kids, you know, it's funny. We had three
by in vitro, and then the last one was a surprise.
(52:18):
And so when that happened, when I had these four kids,
and I went from someone again who never like dreamed.
I thought I'd have a family, but I never really
like dreamed of how many kids. And we started late
and we were in we had unexplained it fertility, like
all the things.
Speaker 4 (52:35):
To then end up with four children.
Speaker 1 (52:37):
I remember, I remember very vividly, and this isn't really
a year thing, but this is a moment that encapsulates
that period of time. I remember going out with our friends,
our couple friends, and Ace was I don't know, four
months old something and he was staying in a little
did never room for him. He was in my office
(52:59):
off our bed, and we had gone out with our friends.
We'd been drinking whatever, and at like two thirty in
the morning, I heard something and I was like, oh,
what is that?
Speaker 4 (53:08):
And I kept hearing it and then I.
Speaker 1 (53:09):
Realized it was a baby grind and I was like, oh.
Speaker 2 (53:11):
That's for me.
Speaker 1 (53:12):
And I remember going into the office and he was
in his little crib and I picked him up and
I made a little bottle and I remember just rocking
him and just being so happy that I felt so
complete with this very complete life and all these lovely
children that I never knew I was going to have,
(53:33):
in this beautiful marriage, and these really nice friends and
just this like great life. I'm just really happy.
Speaker 2 (53:41):
Wow.
Speaker 3 (53:41):
Okay, well I'm hoping that I get some of that
and to having more really good years.
Speaker 1 (53:46):
Yes, and you have to come to my birthday party.
We will talk about that.
Speaker 2 (53:49):
Oh my god. Yes, yes, that's stunt. I love you.
Speaker 1 (53:52):
Thank you so much for being here. Tell everyone how
to find you on TikTok Andy.
Speaker 3 (53:56):
My book is out March eleventh, Paper doll And I
I love you, and and stay strong and I love you. Yeah.
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