April 7, 2021 • 25 mins
In the final episode of Season 2 of “Beyond The Beauty,” Bobbi is joined by the advisor, attorney, and author Anjali Kumar—who is also a longtime friend. Together, they reflect on Anjali’s high-level career of staying open to new opportunities and figuring it out along the way, as well as where she’s going next. They discuss how to advocate for yourself as a woman and mother in the business world, what they gain from mentoring the new generation of entrepreneurs, and the lessons they still want to learn together. Stay tuned for exciting things ahead!
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Beyond the Beauty is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm your host Bobby Brown. This season of Beyond the
Beauty has been talking to founders of beauty companies about
how they started, why they started, what they're struggling with.
(00:24):
And I wanted to do this season based on these
amazing founders because I was about to launch my new
brand and not only do I give them advice, they
have given me a ton of advice and have been
mentors to me. So I love talking to people that
have done it differently than I know, and I also
(00:45):
love sharing what I know. And it's been a really
interesting season talking to all these different you know, founders
of beauty brands, you know, some women, some guys, some
natural companies, some not and even you know pioneers who
have been in the space before me. And I love
(01:05):
mostly being able to understand how people do things, how
they do it differently. And I just think it's really
important for people out there that want to start their
own businesses just to hear other stories so a you
could relate or maybe you can get inspired. I'm someone
that likes to not only talk about being an entrepreneur,
(01:28):
but I really love to talk when it means to
be a woman, what it means to be a mother,
what it means to be a friend, you know how
that defines you. And I'm constantly working on myself and
I'm really looking forward to the next season, which is
why I want to talk to my next guest, a Julie,
(01:51):
who is a a friend who I actually met when
I was doing a speech and she was running the
event at Google. Was it a women's group? What was it? So?
I don't remember who, um who had formally extended the
(02:12):
invitation to you, but it was probably women at Google,
which I was on the steering committee of UM. So, yeah,
that was that was. It was a while ago, so
I did it, but I got, you know, much more
than I thought, which was this long friendship where you
came up to me afterwards and you were such a
cool like you were the you know, the head of
(02:34):
legal at Google, like you were just not some kids
sitting in the audience, and then and then we became friends.
And then when my son was looking for work after college,
you mentored him. Yeah, it was incredible. I mean, I'm
so grateful that I went to that talk and uh
and got to meet you there, and I had always
(02:54):
been a long adviirer of your brand and what you
had built, and you know, certainly as a girl of
color at a certain time, UM, you were the O G.
I mean that was that was what introduced me to
make up, was your line and feeling like I could
feel beautiful at a time when everything else that I
was seeing in media, I was telling you that I
was not the standard of beauty and being able to
(03:16):
find things that worked for me was huge. And then
hearing your story, I was like, she is the coolest,
Like I just want to know her. And I was
really embarrassed that afterwards that I did that to you,
because I never just like bum rush somebody like that
that I just felt this immediate connection to you, to
your story, how you talked about your family. We're both
from Chicago, so I think there were just so many
(03:38):
synergies and I really felt compelled to do that, and
I don't think I've ever done that, Like I was
really kind of mortified later, but I'm glad it worked out.
But but that is that is in your nature to
do that, because you are you know, you say you're
these things, but you're all also very fearless and incredibly
inspirational and interesting. So you know, I just wanted to
(04:00):
spend a second. I'm like, I can't even like remember
every little thing you've done, But what did you do
before Google? Okay, so my career is a bit of
a windy groad. So I started. I'm a lawyer by training,
as you mentioned. Um, So I started my career post
law school living in London at a big New York
law firm called Sherman and Sterling. I spent a few
(04:20):
years there, and I went there and spent two years
in the London office, traveling over Europe, came back to
the New York office, and then about a year into
my time in New York, um that Not eleven happened.
And when I came back to New York, I always
knew that I didn't want to stay at a big
firm forever. I sort of tripped into that job. But
(04:40):
Not eleven was a big wake up call. And I
always had a very strong bleeding heart, you know, I
was a very I had a strong impetus to do
good in the world, and so that was kind of
the kick in the pants I needed to go do it.
So I left Sherman and Sterling and went to the
Robin Hood Foundation, so that Bright and me up, I
didn't know that. Yeah, So I and three years of
robin Foundation doing sort of consulting work essentially for the
(05:05):
grand recipients of Robin Hood. And it was an extraordinary time, UM,
really important work. It was really part of the fabric
of the city and the rebuild of the city. So
it was really humbling to be a part of that
very on the ground. But I wasn't practicing law there
and then I kind of realized I missed the law,
which I never thought would be wars that would come
out of my mouth. And so I ended up at
(05:25):
a recently started nonprofit called Acumen Fund, which is not
called Acumen. I went there as a general council and
so helped us set up our offices in India and
focus on and you know, just figuring out how to
do these grounds and equity investments in different companies and
nonprofits around the world. Um. And then after a few
(05:46):
years there, I was recruited to Google. So Acumen was
a big grand recipient Google when Google dot org first started,
and I honestly had no idea what I was doing
there when I walked in there. I was like, I
don't understand how the interne at works. I don't understand
how Google makes money. I was really clueless walking into
that job, but it worked out great and I ended
up loving it. I stayed there for many years, and
(06:08):
then you went to Warby Parker and then I went
to Eary Parker. Yeah. So funny enough, one of the
founders of Warby Parker knew me from my time and acumen,
and so when I was at GC there he was
running one of the nonprofits right out of college that
we funded, and we ran into each other at a
conference um and he came up to me and was like,
you know, do you remember me. I'm doing this thing now.
(06:30):
It's like, good for you. I didn't wear glasses. I
really didn't understand the pain point. I didn't understand what
you're building. But then he reached out to me when
I was at Google for about six years and he
was like, hey, would you would you talk to me
about this position. We're thinking about hiring a general counsel
and we'd like that to be you. But the pattern
is that you don't know what you're doing when you
take these jobs, and you just go in and you
(06:53):
figure it out. Yeah, that's very much a pattern. And
it's funny because, especially as a lawyer, I think that's
not typical because usually you're as a lawyer, paid for
what you already know, and then you do that again
and again, and you sort of double down on the
expertise and just get to charge more and more for
that expertise. And what I found is a that's not
fun for me. So I'm happy to do it to
(07:13):
a point, but I get bored really easily doing that. Um,
And I think there's way better lawyers than me. Frankly.
I think there's like people who are so good at
what they do with the legal stuff, and they really
love the nuances and the weeds of the law. But
I like, you know, figuring it out, untangling the spaghetti,
and then passing off to somebody else who can do
it again and again and then moving on to the
(07:35):
next thing, because how long will you or be I
was there three years, three years, and then you went
to well, then I left because I got a book deal.
So I ended up writing a book which had nothing
to do with any of this stuff. And the name,
the name of the book the book is called Stocking
God my unorthodox search for something to believe in. And
it is funny. It is, it is honestly, it's a
(07:58):
comedy as you are hysterical, you're you're one of those
like bright, bright brains, but super funny. No, I appreciate that,
thank you. That's the goal. Yeah, it was a really
fun project. I had come up with this idea with
my daughter, who just turned eleven, if you can believe it. Um,
I think she was like three when you and I
got home. Yeah, um, so she just turned eleven. But
(08:21):
when she was born, I realized that I didn't really
know what I believed about religion and spirituality and sort
of the big questions in life that you couldn't google
and answer to. But I realized that Zia is my name,
that she would one day soon be asking me all
kinds of things I didn't know, and so maybe I
would try to figure it out. So it started as
just a little project. I would go and meet like
(08:41):
a cookie healer, or I would go to like some
spiritual thing and do little things around the city. And
then it sort of took on a life of its
own and turned into this project. Um, and it's sort
of before everybody was meditating. You know, It's like that
stuff was super mainstream, um, at least in my circles,
and so I still felt like I was a little
out there doing this, but I was willing to try.
(09:02):
And I think what people responded to is like I
told the stories that like cock told parties and never funny,
and my friends would laugh. And then people are just like,
you have to write the stuff down, like there's something here.
And then it turned into a book and then you've
(09:25):
had one more job before we go into your new life, right,
you had one more gig, which is at Chat. Yes. Correct.
So once as my book was coming out, I think
when I finished the book, I literally turned in the
final draft and an old colleague from Google who had
started Chatter transponed board. He reached out to me and
was like, you know, we're building this thing. It was
(09:46):
sort of the same things that we're building this thing, um,
would you come talk to us and we think we
need a chief people officer. That's how the conversation started.
And I was like, I don't know that stuff, but yeah,
I have nothing that knew. I'm happy to chat. And
when he was telling me what they were doing, I
was like I was it's pretty interesting, and I know
nothing about the news world or media in that way.
A part of my time working on YouTube stuff, and
(10:06):
I was like, you know, I'm curious. Sure, I'm happy
to do this. And I love culture. I think that
stuff is really important. How you treat employees, what how
to get the best from people, Diversity, inclusion, all those
issues were things that I was super interested in. UM
so I took the job. And then this also became
a pattern where they kind of through in the second job, like, oh,
can you also be our general counsel? Was like yeah, sure,
(10:27):
so I was doing sort of that very womanly way
too for the price of one. And and do you
have people that you call and discuss this with? Is
it your husband? Is it you want to say, Well,
we've never had the financial discussion. You know, That's what
I'm saying. That's a really good point. The financial discussions
are hard for me. It's so interesting. I'm really trying
to work that muscle and get better at it. Um
(10:50):
I wasn't you know. I was definitely raised with that
generation where it's just not polite to talk about money.
You just you don't ask those questions. I don't know like,
it's all this stuff that I know is wrong, and
I would advise anybody else not to take that advice.
I think that's definitely a hard thing, and I know
it's hard for women. It's definitely hard, and I wish
it weren't true. And I'm really trying to get better
(11:11):
because the only way it gets better for all of
us is if we all are sharing the math and
really understanding, like, hey, but I've gotten better about certain things,
Like I will when friends are telling you, like for
speaking engagements and that kind of thing, and like they're
paying you what you need to be asking for four
times that, and I'm like, well, and then I will
tell them this is what I got paid when I
do a keno. When you are way way more popular
(11:33):
than you have way more expertise on issue acts like
you're the Michael Jordan, I'll blank, you should be paid accordingly.
And um, I think that's helped all of us be
more transparent. So much of what you do, it's like
a snowball. You know, you do one thing and that
takes on and it just keeps growing. So your book
is also the gift that keeps on giving. Is it
true that your ted talk. You've got four million? How
(11:55):
many people I haven't looked? Well, I have to go.
It's over for me, and I thing over four million
people have senior type Yeah, that's unbelievable. Isn't that crazy? Yeah?
It's crazy. So so what was it like doing a
Ted Talk? It was incredible. It was an out of
body experience. I mean, I was so humble to be
(12:15):
asked to do it. And then I got really in
my head about what should I talk about. I was like, well,
I have to, you know, talk about saving the world,
and I have to talk about business and social good
through business and like all these things that I care about.
And I don't know why I didn't occur to me
right off the bat, just to talk about this journey
that I went on for this book that was coming out.
And finally I was like, oh, you know what I
have to do is just tell a really great story.
(12:37):
That's what I have to do because I'm not an
expert at blank. I didn't discover a cure for cancer,
like I don't have that guy, which is a lot
of what Ted talks are um. So I was like,
I'm just gonna tell something that I am uniquely qualified
to talk about, which is my journey on this particular topic.
Um So that's what I did. So I just told
the story of my attempts to sort of find religion
(12:59):
and spirituality and the answers to the big questions in life.
Um and that I failed at it miserably. But then
the you know, kind of cut away at the end
was that, but here's what I found instead, which was
that everybody, regardless of their religious affiliation, of their socio
economic background, if anything, we're all looking for the same
three things which in my research, my my qualitative research
(13:23):
um or health, happiness, and love. And so I kind
of take people through that journey health, happiness, and love.
I mean, honestly though, that's like the essence of probably
why we connected, Like those are those are three things
that are very important to me, you know, and the
reason you know, the next season of my podcast, I've
(13:45):
been thinking a lot about where I want to take
it and what I want to do, and for the
third season, I realized that my my passion right now
is helping people. I mean, it always has been. It's
it's empowering, encouraging, making people, allowing people to learn how
to feel comfortable in their skin, which that's confident and
(14:06):
just the whole empowerment thing, you know. Being Look, I
was a working mother, you know, I was a commuting mother,
and I just really think that we need to build
our community. And I just thought who better to have
these conversations than you. You're the only person I thought
of than you know, and you also have this amazing
network of cool women that you know, have stories to
(14:31):
tell and have ways to inspire other people. So well,
I'm excited and I feel like you and me and
a roll, a dux and a telephone, we could we
could solve any problems. I think the two of us,
we will, you know, will turn it into something else.
So let's do you know, I do believe that you're
stronger together than you are alone. I love a collaboration.
(14:54):
I think, you know. It's um It's funny when you
when I go through all the things that I've done,
and a lot of it's just because I've done things
for shorter amounts of time, Like I didn't run a
company like you did for twenty five years. That was
my own brand that I felt, you know, it's a
different thing. I've been mostly an operator working for somebody
else's vision UM. But my favorite times at any of
(15:16):
those places, or side projects or any of it is
always in a collaboration because I love the give and
take of that. I love the exchange of ideas. I
don't want to be the smartest person in the room.
I wanted to be a very middle of the pack
and learned from everyone around me. And so UM, that's
so fun to get that advice from people and people
like you. But you are working on a couple of
(15:37):
things now. I have been advising companies, so I started
my own advisory company that I'm calling Slightly Reserved. There's
a back story there that I won't for you with,
but it's I just advise about twenty startups and mostly
it's the founders that I'm really advising UM and the
kind of industry agnostic it's all over the map, everything
from fintech companies to beauty and wellness companies like Natural Beauty, UM,
(16:02):
some supplement companies, and then you know kind of everything
in between. It's like a nice mix of companies, subtext
and non tech, mostly women and people of color founders,
which I love. UM. When then I have a handful
of legal clients just because they are incredible people, and
so I can't help myself, and I want to help
some of those books. And then I have some media
projects that I'm kicking around, which has been a really
(16:23):
fun you know kind of second chapter or whatever chapter
I'm in at this point through chapter UM, that I'm
super excited about. And I think a lot of that
came from doing the Toxic Google, doing you know, the
Ted talks certainly in the book UM, and doing some
public speaking around the book, and just around my time
at warby Parker, I started getting out there more and
(16:45):
like you said, you know, kind of having a bit
more of a public profile as much as you can
have a public profile doing the nerdy things that I do.
But um, yeah, so these things are now coming in.
So we're developing my book into a limited series or
a comedy series, which is super super are exciting. It's
very early stages, but uh, you know from which cross
I think there's so much room for content, as we've
(17:06):
seen in the past year. So this podcast is all
about what people could learn from the people that inspire me.
And you are here because you inspire me, Like, what
(17:29):
do you think that our listeners could learn from you?
And where you've been to where they are, well, I
hope they can learn that not knowing what you're doing
is actually a strength, not a weakness. Like going into things,
um with a bit of a beginner's mindset and staying
(17:52):
open two things I think can really put you in
a position of strength. I think we have a culture
that really overvalues expertise and a way that um, you know,
it's great obviously you want to be an expert at stuff,
but a fresh perspective without carrying a lot of um
kind of preconsilt notions about what's possible and what's not possible,
(18:14):
can make you do things really really differently. And so
I think you can do that sort of as a company,
but even as a person and the way you approach
your work. I think it's really important. And what kind
of fearful things have you overcome in your career. I
think I'm getting better at advocating for myself. So it
sort of what we were talking about earlier, just you know,
setting up what I need to be successful, making sure
(18:37):
I asked about things that I'm concerned about before taking
a position or before working with somebody, are taking on
a client, and that's not something I was always so
good at Like, so I think even when I left Google,
initially I my daughter was about three and I was
going to Warby Parker and the team, you know, the
senior team I thought was all single, no kids. That
(18:59):
didn't end up being the case, but I would never
have asked them about how they think about, you know,
working parents and what sort of flexibility they offer an
a that kind of thing, had you not pushed me
to frankly so, because I remember we had a conversation
right before I was deciding, and You're like, is there
anything left unset is or anything that you're still concerned about?
(19:19):
And I raised this issue with you and I said, well,
you know, my daughter is only three. Um, I think
this is it. You first encouraged me to have more kids,
and I was like, did my mom call you? And
was like I gave that just um. But then I
was like, well, I'm concerned about this one piece because
I have incredible flexibility at Google. I've earned a lot
of goodwill and trust there and so I can do
(19:40):
you know, I can kind of do what I need
to do and be there for my child and then
also be really effective at work. And so I'm nervous
about going into this senior position at a small, you know,
a fast growing startup, and what does that look like
if my daughter is only three And she's like, well,
you have to ask a question. You said to me,
you have to ask a question. I was like, I
can't do what I can't you know, wait after I've
been there a couple of year, then I'll ask you, like,
(20:00):
you have to ask the question. I was like, okay,
I'm just gonna stuck it up and ask the question.
And so what happened? What always the old women? To
all one of the founders, and he was like, oh
my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. Of course, whatever
you need, you know, you should talk to Lan or cto.
He's got kids and you know, whatever you need and
whatever flexibility you need, of course will be supportive of
all that. We love family, you know, we we all
(20:22):
want kids. Like he was really so gracious about it,
and he said all the right things, and I was like, oh,
thank god I asked, because I would have been so
nervous going in and I think it would have taken
me a really long time to build up the nerve
to um to have that flexibility to ask for it.
So things like that I think we're really important, Like
(20:42):
ask for what you need before you go into something,
and then if they say no, you have to go
home and decide exactly. At least you haven't answered, You're
not like wondering what the answer is. Yeah, because they
usially could have been like nope, for her eight a m.
Until ten pm. We expect you on seven and that's
the deal. And then that's a different answer and that's okay,
that's okay too, and that could be the expectation, but um,
(21:03):
it wouldn't have been right for me. So what would
you say to someone that's having issues in their career
right now where they're stuck at at a job they're
not happy with, or they're trying to get their business
off the ground. What kind of encouragement and advice would
you give people? So these are these are pretty unusual times,
which I think makes my answer a little bit different
(21:25):
because I do recognize that obviously, the security of a job,
the challenges of the current job market, working from home,
all those kinds of things make it really difficult to
make a big job switch in this time or to
launch a new idea. Um But that said, I think,
if anything, or if nothing else, this past year has
(21:48):
really taught us that life is super super short, and
you really want to spend your time doing things that
you love with people that you respect and that respect you.
So I would encourage you to start thinking about what
that really looks like for you and telling people and
asking around and finding the right environment. I think, you know,
(22:10):
what I've found is that it almost doesn't matter what
you're working on if you're doing it with people that
you really enjoy working with. And so I think that's
the biggest, biggest lesson that I've had just over the
course of my career, and certainly the past years proven
that time and time again. So I would stay focus
on the people first. And I would also say make
sure you have a posse totally, make sure you have
(22:33):
people you could talk to you're not by yourself. Yeah,
I think that's right. Like a tribe of people. I've
heard friends referred to them for referred to their posse
as like their board of advisors or personal board of advisors,
And I think there is something to that of having
people around you. I actually do this for my daughter
um every year on her birthday, I gift her what
(22:55):
we call a wise woman, and so it's somebody from
our lives some time she knows them really well. Sometimes
there's somebody from my life that I think would be
an incredible mentor and person for her to know and
to be close to and just to have a relationship
with in some way because of whatever she's into that year,
or whatever she's really excited about, or just shortcomings that
(23:16):
I find in myself, frankly, because I know that I
can't be everything for her, and I know that there
will be times that she does not want to come
to me for advice, and so I want her to
feel like she's got a lot of trusted women in
particular around her that she has access to and that
she has an independent relationship with from me. So I
think it's kind of like creating that for her now
at age eleven, um, so that she has that. But
(23:39):
it took me a long time to figure out that
I needed that for myself too, So I think it's
because I was doing it for myself that I started
doing it for her. That's a that's a very cool thing.
So would you also tell everyone where they can get
more of you, where they could find you? Sure? I'm
on social at Julie Kumar or you can go to
my website adeliumar dot com and my book is called
(24:02):
Stocking God my unworth box. Search for something to believe in.
Please support independent booksellers, so trying to find it there
and otherwise. Amazon always has coffees I suspect And you
can go into my I G t V on Just
Bobby dot com and see a virtual makeup lesson I
did before we launched Jones Road and uh got it
(24:24):
got a lot of people saying that they wanted to
do it. So I hope it's going well for you.
Oh yeah, of course. And you can find me on
I G t V. I do a series called Teach
Me Anything, and literally Friends of Mine Bobby was my
first episode Teach Me Anything, so that you know, we
do episodes very hap pastorally, but they're really fun. All right.
(24:46):
I love you, I love you too, Thank you for
having me. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you
listen to your favorite shows. The
Beyond the Beauty is a production of I Heart Radio.
I'm your host Bobby Brown. This season of Beyond the
Beauty has been talking to founders of beauty companies about
how they started, why they started, what they're struggling with.
(00:24):
And I wanted to do this season based on these
amazing founders because I was about to launch my new
brand and not only do I give them advice, they
have given me a ton of advice and have been
mentors to me. So I love talking to people that
have done it differently than I know, and I also
(00:45):
love sharing what I know. And it's been a really
interesting season talking to all these different you know, founders
of beauty brands, you know, some women, some guys, some
natural companies, some not and even you know pioneers who
have been in the space before me. And I love
(01:05):
mostly being able to understand how people do things, how
they do it differently. And I just think it's really
important for people out there that want to start their
own businesses just to hear other stories so a you
could relate or maybe you can get inspired. I'm someone
that likes to not only talk about being an entrepreneur,
(01:28):
but I really love to talk when it means to
be a woman, what it means to be a mother,
what it means to be a friend, you know how
that defines you. And I'm constantly working on myself and
I'm really looking forward to the next season, which is
why I want to talk to my next guest, a Julie,
(01:51):
who is a a friend who I actually met when
I was doing a speech and she was running the
event at Google. Was it a women's group? What was it? So?
I don't remember who, um who had formally extended the
(02:12):
invitation to you, but it was probably women at Google,
which I was on the steering committee of UM. So, yeah,
that was that was. It was a while ago, so
I did it, but I got, you know, much more
than I thought, which was this long friendship where you
came up to me afterwards and you were such a
cool like you were the you know, the head of
(02:34):
legal at Google, like you were just not some kids
sitting in the audience, and then and then we became friends.
And then when my son was looking for work after college,
you mentored him. Yeah, it was incredible. I mean, I'm
so grateful that I went to that talk and uh
and got to meet you there, and I had always
(02:54):
been a long adviirer of your brand and what you
had built, and you know, certainly as a girl of
color at a certain time, UM, you were the O G.
I mean that was that was what introduced me to
make up, was your line and feeling like I could
feel beautiful at a time when everything else that I
was seeing in media, I was telling you that I
was not the standard of beauty and being able to
(03:16):
find things that worked for me was huge. And then
hearing your story, I was like, she is the coolest,
Like I just want to know her. And I was
really embarrassed that afterwards that I did that to you,
because I never just like bum rush somebody like that
that I just felt this immediate connection to you, to
your story, how you talked about your family. We're both
from Chicago, so I think there were just so many
(03:38):
synergies and I really felt compelled to do that, and
I don't think I've ever done that, Like I was
really kind of mortified later, but I'm glad it worked out.
But but that is that is in your nature to
do that, because you are you know, you say you're
these things, but you're all also very fearless and incredibly
inspirational and interesting. So you know, I just wanted to
(04:00):
spend a second. I'm like, I can't even like remember
every little thing you've done, But what did you do
before Google? Okay, so my career is a bit of
a windy groad. So I started. I'm a lawyer by training,
as you mentioned. Um, So I started my career post
law school living in London at a big New York
law firm called Sherman and Sterling. I spent a few
(04:20):
years there, and I went there and spent two years
in the London office, traveling over Europe, came back to
the New York office, and then about a year into
my time in New York, um that Not eleven happened.
And when I came back to New York, I always
knew that I didn't want to stay at a big
firm forever. I sort of tripped into that job. But
(04:40):
Not eleven was a big wake up call. And I
always had a very strong bleeding heart, you know, I
was a very I had a strong impetus to do
good in the world, and so that was kind of
the kick in the pants I needed to go do it.
So I left Sherman and Sterling and went to the
Robin Hood Foundation, so that Bright and me up, I
didn't know that. Yeah, So I and three years of
robin Foundation doing sort of consulting work essentially for the
(05:05):
grand recipients of Robin Hood. And it was an extraordinary time, UM,
really important work. It was really part of the fabric
of the city and the rebuild of the city. So
it was really humbling to be a part of that
very on the ground. But I wasn't practicing law there
and then I kind of realized I missed the law,
which I never thought would be wars that would come
out of my mouth. And so I ended up at
(05:25):
a recently started nonprofit called Acumen Fund, which is not
called Acumen. I went there as a general council and
so helped us set up our offices in India and
focus on and you know, just figuring out how to
do these grounds and equity investments in different companies and
nonprofits around the world. Um. And then after a few
(05:46):
years there, I was recruited to Google. So Acumen was
a big grand recipient Google when Google dot org first started,
and I honestly had no idea what I was doing
there when I walked in there. I was like, I
don't understand how the interne at works. I don't understand
how Google makes money. I was really clueless walking into
that job, but it worked out great and I ended
up loving it. I stayed there for many years, and
(06:08):
then you went to Warby Parker and then I went
to Eary Parker. Yeah. So funny enough, one of the
founders of Warby Parker knew me from my time and acumen,
and so when I was at GC there he was
running one of the nonprofits right out of college that
we funded, and we ran into each other at a
conference um and he came up to me and was like,
you know, do you remember me. I'm doing this thing now.
(06:30):
It's like, good for you. I didn't wear glasses. I
really didn't understand the pain point. I didn't understand what
you're building. But then he reached out to me when
I was at Google for about six years and he
was like, hey, would you would you talk to me
about this position. We're thinking about hiring a general counsel
and we'd like that to be you. But the pattern
is that you don't know what you're doing when you
take these jobs, and you just go in and you
(06:53):
figure it out. Yeah, that's very much a pattern. And
it's funny because, especially as a lawyer, I think that's
not typical because usually you're as a lawyer, paid for
what you already know, and then you do that again
and again, and you sort of double down on the
expertise and just get to charge more and more for
that expertise. And what I found is a that's not
fun for me. So I'm happy to do it to
(07:13):
a point, but I get bored really easily doing that. Um,
And I think there's way better lawyers than me. Frankly.
I think there's like people who are so good at
what they do with the legal stuff, and they really
love the nuances and the weeds of the law. But
I like, you know, figuring it out, untangling the spaghetti,
and then passing off to somebody else who can do
it again and again and then moving on to the
(07:35):
next thing, because how long will you or be I
was there three years, three years, and then you went
to well, then I left because I got a book deal.
So I ended up writing a book which had nothing
to do with any of this stuff. And the name,
the name of the book the book is called Stocking
God my unorthodox search for something to believe in. And
it is funny. It is, it is honestly, it's a
(07:58):
comedy as you are hysterical, you're you're one of those
like bright, bright brains, but super funny. No, I appreciate that,
thank you. That's the goal. Yeah, it was a really
fun project. I had come up with this idea with
my daughter, who just turned eleven, if you can believe it. Um,
I think she was like three when you and I
got home. Yeah, um, so she just turned eleven. But
(08:21):
when she was born, I realized that I didn't really
know what I believed about religion and spirituality and sort
of the big questions in life that you couldn't google
and answer to. But I realized that Zia is my name,
that she would one day soon be asking me all
kinds of things I didn't know, and so maybe I
would try to figure it out. So it started as
just a little project. I would go and meet like
(08:41):
a cookie healer, or I would go to like some
spiritual thing and do little things around the city. And
then it sort of took on a life of its
own and turned into this project. Um, and it's sort
of before everybody was meditating. You know, It's like that
stuff was super mainstream, um, at least in my circles,
and so I still felt like I was a little
out there doing this, but I was willing to try.
(09:02):
And I think what people responded to is like I
told the stories that like cock told parties and never funny,
and my friends would laugh. And then people are just like,
you have to write the stuff down, like there's something here.
And then it turned into a book and then you've
(09:25):
had one more job before we go into your new life, right,
you had one more gig, which is at Chat. Yes. Correct.
So once as my book was coming out, I think
when I finished the book, I literally turned in the
final draft and an old colleague from Google who had
started Chatter transponed board. He reached out to me and
was like, you know, we're building this thing. It was
(09:46):
sort of the same things that we're building this thing, um,
would you come talk to us and we think we
need a chief people officer. That's how the conversation started.
And I was like, I don't know that stuff, but yeah,
I have nothing that knew. I'm happy to chat. And
when he was telling me what they were doing, I
was like I was it's pretty interesting, and I know
nothing about the news world or media in that way.
A part of my time working on YouTube stuff, and
(10:06):
I was like, you know, I'm curious. Sure, I'm happy
to do this. And I love culture. I think that
stuff is really important. How you treat employees, what how
to get the best from people, Diversity, inclusion, all those
issues were things that I was super interested in. UM
so I took the job. And then this also became
a pattern where they kind of through in the second job, like, oh,
can you also be our general counsel? Was like yeah, sure,
(10:27):
so I was doing sort of that very womanly way
too for the price of one. And and do you
have people that you call and discuss this with? Is
it your husband? Is it you want to say, Well,
we've never had the financial discussion. You know, That's what
I'm saying. That's a really good point. The financial discussions
are hard for me. It's so interesting. I'm really trying
to work that muscle and get better at it. Um
(10:50):
I wasn't you know. I was definitely raised with that
generation where it's just not polite to talk about money.
You just you don't ask those questions. I don't know like,
it's all this stuff that I know is wrong, and
I would advise anybody else not to take that advice.
I think that's definitely a hard thing, and I know
it's hard for women. It's definitely hard, and I wish
it weren't true. And I'm really trying to get better
(11:11):
because the only way it gets better for all of
us is if we all are sharing the math and
really understanding, like, hey, but I've gotten better about certain things,
Like I will when friends are telling you, like for
speaking engagements and that kind of thing, and like they're
paying you what you need to be asking for four
times that, and I'm like, well, and then I will
tell them this is what I got paid when I
do a keno. When you are way way more popular
(11:33):
than you have way more expertise on issue acts like
you're the Michael Jordan, I'll blank, you should be paid accordingly.
And um, I think that's helped all of us be
more transparent. So much of what you do, it's like
a snowball. You know, you do one thing and that
takes on and it just keeps growing. So your book
is also the gift that keeps on giving. Is it
true that your ted talk. You've got four million? How
(11:55):
many people I haven't looked? Well, I have to go.
It's over for me, and I thing over four million
people have senior type Yeah, that's unbelievable. Isn't that crazy? Yeah?
It's crazy. So so what was it like doing a
Ted Talk? It was incredible. It was an out of
body experience. I mean, I was so humble to be
(12:15):
asked to do it. And then I got really in
my head about what should I talk about. I was like, well,
I have to, you know, talk about saving the world,
and I have to talk about business and social good
through business and like all these things that I care about.
And I don't know why I didn't occur to me
right off the bat, just to talk about this journey
that I went on for this book that was coming out.
And finally I was like, oh, you know what I
have to do is just tell a really great story.
(12:37):
That's what I have to do because I'm not an
expert at blank. I didn't discover a cure for cancer,
like I don't have that guy, which is a lot
of what Ted talks are um. So I was like,
I'm just gonna tell something that I am uniquely qualified
to talk about, which is my journey on this particular topic.
Um So that's what I did. So I just told
the story of my attempts to sort of find religion
(12:59):
and spirituality and the answers to the big questions in life.
Um and that I failed at it miserably. But then
the you know, kind of cut away at the end
was that, but here's what I found instead, which was
that everybody, regardless of their religious affiliation, of their socio
economic background, if anything, we're all looking for the same
three things which in my research, my my qualitative research
(13:23):
um or health, happiness, and love. And so I kind
of take people through that journey health, happiness, and love.
I mean, honestly though, that's like the essence of probably
why we connected, Like those are those are three things
that are very important to me, you know, and the
reason you know, the next season of my podcast, I've
(13:45):
been thinking a lot about where I want to take
it and what I want to do, and for the
third season, I realized that my my passion right now
is helping people. I mean, it always has been. It's
it's empowering, encouraging, making people, allowing people to learn how
to feel comfortable in their skin, which that's confident and
(14:06):
just the whole empowerment thing, you know. Being Look, I
was a working mother, you know, I was a commuting mother,
and I just really think that we need to build
our community. And I just thought who better to have
these conversations than you. You're the only person I thought
of than you know, and you also have this amazing
network of cool women that you know, have stories to
(14:31):
tell and have ways to inspire other people. So well,
I'm excited and I feel like you and me and
a roll, a dux and a telephone, we could we
could solve any problems. I think the two of us,
we will, you know, will turn it into something else.
So let's do you know, I do believe that you're
stronger together than you are alone. I love a collaboration.
(14:54):
I think, you know. It's um It's funny when you
when I go through all the things that I've done,
and a lot of it's just because I've done things
for shorter amounts of time, Like I didn't run a
company like you did for twenty five years. That was
my own brand that I felt, you know, it's a
different thing. I've been mostly an operator working for somebody
else's vision UM. But my favorite times at any of
(15:16):
those places, or side projects or any of it is
always in a collaboration because I love the give and
take of that. I love the exchange of ideas. I
don't want to be the smartest person in the room.
I wanted to be a very middle of the pack
and learned from everyone around me. And so UM, that's
so fun to get that advice from people and people
like you. But you are working on a couple of
(15:37):
things now. I have been advising companies, so I started
my own advisory company that I'm calling Slightly Reserved. There's
a back story there that I won't for you with,
but it's I just advise about twenty startups and mostly
it's the founders that I'm really advising UM and the
kind of industry agnostic it's all over the map, everything
from fintech companies to beauty and wellness companies like Natural Beauty, UM,
(16:02):
some supplement companies, and then you know kind of everything
in between. It's like a nice mix of companies, subtext
and non tech, mostly women and people of color founders,
which I love. UM. When then I have a handful
of legal clients just because they are incredible people, and
so I can't help myself, and I want to help
some of those books. And then I have some media
projects that I'm kicking around, which has been a really
(16:23):
fun you know kind of second chapter or whatever chapter
I'm in at this point through chapter UM, that I'm
super excited about. And I think a lot of that
came from doing the Toxic Google, doing you know, the
Ted talks certainly in the book UM, and doing some
public speaking around the book, and just around my time
at warby Parker, I started getting out there more and
(16:45):
like you said, you know, kind of having a bit
more of a public profile as much as you can
have a public profile doing the nerdy things that I do.
But um, yeah, so these things are now coming in.
So we're developing my book into a limited series or
a comedy series, which is super super are exciting. It's
very early stages, but uh, you know from which cross
I think there's so much room for content, as we've
(17:06):
seen in the past year. So this podcast is all
about what people could learn from the people that inspire me.
And you are here because you inspire me, Like, what
(17:29):
do you think that our listeners could learn from you?
And where you've been to where they are, well, I
hope they can learn that not knowing what you're doing
is actually a strength, not a weakness. Like going into things,
um with a bit of a beginner's mindset and staying
(17:52):
open two things I think can really put you in
a position of strength. I think we have a culture
that really overvalues expertise and a way that um, you know,
it's great obviously you want to be an expert at stuff,
but a fresh perspective without carrying a lot of um
kind of preconsilt notions about what's possible and what's not possible,
(18:14):
can make you do things really really differently. And so
I think you can do that sort of as a company,
but even as a person and the way you approach
your work. I think it's really important. And what kind
of fearful things have you overcome in your career. I
think I'm getting better at advocating for myself. So it
sort of what we were talking about earlier, just you know,
setting up what I need to be successful, making sure
(18:37):
I asked about things that I'm concerned about before taking
a position or before working with somebody, are taking on
a client, and that's not something I was always so
good at Like, so I think even when I left Google,
initially I my daughter was about three and I was
going to Warby Parker and the team, you know, the
senior team I thought was all single, no kids. That
(18:59):
didn't end up being the case, but I would never
have asked them about how they think about, you know,
working parents and what sort of flexibility they offer an
a that kind of thing, had you not pushed me
to frankly so, because I remember we had a conversation
right before I was deciding, and You're like, is there
anything left unset is or anything that you're still concerned about?
(19:19):
And I raised this issue with you and I said, well,
you know, my daughter is only three. Um, I think
this is it. You first encouraged me to have more kids,
and I was like, did my mom call you? And
was like I gave that just um. But then I
was like, well, I'm concerned about this one piece because
I have incredible flexibility at Google. I've earned a lot
of goodwill and trust there and so I can do
(19:40):
you know, I can kind of do what I need
to do and be there for my child and then
also be really effective at work. And so I'm nervous
about going into this senior position at a small, you know,
a fast growing startup, and what does that look like
if my daughter is only three And she's like, well,
you have to ask a question. You said to me,
you have to ask a question. I was like, I
can't do what I can't you know, wait after I've
been there a couple of year, then I'll ask you, like,
(20:00):
you have to ask the question. I was like, okay,
I'm just gonna stuck it up and ask the question.
And so what happened? What always the old women? To
all one of the founders, and he was like, oh
my gosh, I'm so glad you asked. Of course, whatever
you need, you know, you should talk to Lan or cto.
He's got kids and you know, whatever you need and
whatever flexibility you need, of course will be supportive of
all that. We love family, you know, we we all
(20:22):
want kids. Like he was really so gracious about it,
and he said all the right things, and I was like, oh,
thank god I asked, because I would have been so
nervous going in and I think it would have taken
me a really long time to build up the nerve
to um to have that flexibility to ask for it.
So things like that I think we're really important, Like
(20:42):
ask for what you need before you go into something,
and then if they say no, you have to go
home and decide exactly. At least you haven't answered, You're
not like wondering what the answer is. Yeah, because they
usially could have been like nope, for her eight a m.
Until ten pm. We expect you on seven and that's
the deal. And then that's a different answer and that's okay,
that's okay too, and that could be the expectation, but um,
(21:03):
it wouldn't have been right for me. So what would
you say to someone that's having issues in their career
right now where they're stuck at at a job they're
not happy with, or they're trying to get their business
off the ground. What kind of encouragement and advice would
you give people? So these are these are pretty unusual times,
which I think makes my answer a little bit different
(21:25):
because I do recognize that obviously, the security of a job,
the challenges of the current job market, working from home,
all those kinds of things make it really difficult to
make a big job switch in this time or to
launch a new idea. Um But that said, I think,
if anything, or if nothing else, this past year has
(21:48):
really taught us that life is super super short, and
you really want to spend your time doing things that
you love with people that you respect and that respect you.
So I would encourage you to start thinking about what
that really looks like for you and telling people and
asking around and finding the right environment. I think, you know,
(22:10):
what I've found is that it almost doesn't matter what
you're working on if you're doing it with people that
you really enjoy working with. And so I think that's
the biggest, biggest lesson that I've had just over the
course of my career, and certainly the past years proven
that time and time again. So I would stay focus
on the people first. And I would also say make
sure you have a posse totally, make sure you have
(22:33):
people you could talk to you're not by yourself. Yeah,
I think that's right. Like a tribe of people. I've
heard friends referred to them for referred to their posse
as like their board of advisors or personal board of advisors,
And I think there is something to that of having
people around you. I actually do this for my daughter
um every year on her birthday, I gift her what
(22:55):
we call a wise woman, and so it's somebody from
our lives some time she knows them really well. Sometimes
there's somebody from my life that I think would be
an incredible mentor and person for her to know and
to be close to and just to have a relationship
with in some way because of whatever she's into that year,
or whatever she's really excited about, or just shortcomings that
(23:16):
I find in myself, frankly, because I know that I
can't be everything for her, and I know that there
will be times that she does not want to come
to me for advice, and so I want her to
feel like she's got a lot of trusted women in
particular around her that she has access to and that
she has an independent relationship with from me. So I
think it's kind of like creating that for her now
at age eleven, um, so that she has that. But
(23:39):
it took me a long time to figure out that
I needed that for myself too, So I think it's
because I was doing it for myself that I started
doing it for her. That's a that's a very cool thing.
So would you also tell everyone where they can get
more of you, where they could find you? Sure? I'm
on social at Julie Kumar or you can go to
my website adeliumar dot com and my book is called
(24:02):
Stocking God my unworth box. Search for something to believe in.
Please support independent booksellers, so trying to find it there
and otherwise. Amazon always has coffees I suspect And you
can go into my I G t V on Just
Bobby dot com and see a virtual makeup lesson I
did before we launched Jones Road and uh got it
(24:24):
got a lot of people saying that they wanted to
do it. So I hope it's going well for you.
Oh yeah, of course. And you can find me on
I G t V. I do a series called Teach
Me Anything, and literally Friends of Mine Bobby was my
first episode Teach Me Anything, so that you know, we
do episodes very hap pastorally, but they're really fun. All right.
(24:46):
I love you, I love you too, Thank you for
having me. For more podcasts from I Heart Radio, visit
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