February 28, 2023 • 51 mins
Superheroes inspire us and help us believe we can do all that we set our minds to. Black superhero stories, however, don’t always reach mainstream audiences, leaving young Black children few characters to identify with. Host Roy Wood Jr. sits down with Daily Show writer, Ashton Womack, Beyond the Scenes senior producer, Aaron Lamarr Burleson, and contemporary artist, Hebru Brantley, to discuss how Black superhero stories have more capacity to bring authentic Black experiences to the big screen.
Watch the Original Segment:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jx3ErVQmXKc
Link to purchase Hebru Brantley’s coffee table book: https://www.amazon.com/Hebru-Brantley/dp/084787219X
See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcomely to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that
goes deeper into topics and discussions and segments that originally
aired on The Daily Show. Like this is what you
gotta think of this podcast us. This podcast is like
you know, you know how you go to church. You
go to church, you can go to heaven. This podcast
is them little sandwiches you get after church. Like you know,
you go to church and you can praise the Lord,
(00:29):
but then down there in the fellowship hall, they got
them a little finger sandwiches and they got all them
little the little peppermints. That being the bottom of a black,
black lady's purse. That's what this podcast is. I think
that analogy works. This Black History Month, we are taking
a look at a CP time I did not too
long ago, about the history of black superheroes, and we
(00:51):
talked about some of the more notable superheroes in black history.
Give me a clip. Black superheroes are not new. In fact,
they've been squeezing into spandex for decades. They didn't as
far back as nineteen thirty six, when cartoonist j Jackson
created Speed. Jackson in the Chicago Defended newspaper Speed Jackson
(01:13):
was a former track star at Howard University who was
an excellent fistfighter, which may not sound powerful compared to
today's superheroes with their laser eyes and sticky spider hands,
which you have to think about it. Like sports, today's
best athletes of the pinnacle of human physicality, while the
best athletes from the nineteen thirties were just the ones
(01:33):
with the least polio times change, Jackson used his abilities
to fight against fascists during the war and right the
wrongs of a racist society, which is tough because superpowers
don't help when you fight in systemic racism. Doesn't matter
if you have the strength of ten men if none
of those men can get a mortgage to help me
dive a little bit deeper into this topic. We've got
(01:56):
a lot of brothers. We're gonna go around the horn
here real quick. First up, as a fight nerd and
stand up comedian and daily show writer, super nerd Ashton. Woman,
I'm trying to disrespect you, gangster. I appreciate, I appreciate
you know you're still Houston, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
(02:17):
how many times have you been on this show? Like?
What number is this again, like you have to like,
I think it's like my fourth time. Give a tap,
give a take. Yeah. Also joining us is a comic
artist who creates narrative driven work and incorporates his own
character creations into his work. Hebrew Brantley, Hebrew, how you
doing today? What's up? Roy? I'm great man, I'm I'm
(02:40):
glad to be on. I appreciate you guys happening well.
Appreciate you for being smart enough to not join us
in this hot ass studio, nice and air conditioned where
you are. Television is torture here, it's torture. Also, for
the very first time, this man's work has helped make
this podcast happen. Up until now, we have a senior
(03:00):
producer and self professed geek of all things, Aaron Lamar Brolson. Aaron,
how you doing testing one too? Wow? This is how
it feels like going beyond the scenes. All right, yea
all actually, yeah, I'm doing great. Roy. It's it's a
pleasure and honor to be on the show with you.
Normally you're normally helping to produce all these segments and
put all the wheels on the car so it can
(03:22):
go room. But thank you for settling in on this
one because Ashton we was like, yeah, we talking about
black gigs, and Aaron's like, well, you know, I have
a lot to say about it. I'll just write myself
into the episode. Yeah, I was like, you should be
the episode. What what are we here for? So I'll
go around the horn to the three of you. First.
I want to know when you first started reading comic
(03:45):
books and becoming engrossed in the world of comic books,
and when you recognize your first black comic superhero, because
I'm gonna be honest for me, I grew up with
budget limitations and so you know where I'm from. You
could really shoose one of two things. You could collect
baseball cards or you could collect comic books. You could
(04:05):
not afford both, and with a little bit of extra
money I did have, I would spend that on video
game magazine, shout out to GamePro, shout out to Electronic
Game and monthly shout out to Nintendo Power. So I
never Yeah, I was like you speaking to my nerd
heart right now. So I never. I never dealt with
the comic books, And so there would be kids in
middle school they had the comic books, but I just
(04:27):
what I knew if comic books was the cartoons. If
it didn't have a Saturday morning cartoon, I couldn't tell
you anything about it. Knew nothing. But I could name
you who was on the bench for the Cincinnati Rids.
And so that's a different type of nerds. That's still
he's still in the house. So but but this is
but this is a world that I really do not
have much of a It does not connect to my
(04:49):
childhood if I'm just being one hunting. So I want
y'all to walk me through how you all got connected
in the comic books. Actually, I'll start with you, But
how did you get into comic books? And what was
the first like sense of represent tation that you saw?
I would say the way I got into comic books
was I grew up on Fox. They had weekday afternoon
cartoons and you'll watch X Men. You would watch all
the superhero cartoons, and that sparked my love for comic books. Now,
(05:13):
the first superhero that actually got me truly loving superhero
it's always been black superheroes. My first superhero I loved
was meteor Man. It's not a comic book, it's a movie.
Robert Towns and so many famous black actors. But I
was growing up as a kid, we would watching medior
Man eighteen thousand times a day. So then to that point, Aaron,
(05:34):
what did you discover? Because Media Man is that's a
movie you know? And Ashton, you know, you're kicking back
with his pops watching something that probably was that movie
was a little grown. It's a classic. It's a little
grown for your years old? What about you, Aaron? How
did you get into you? Like? Where did you go
to get them? Because yeah, like comic books was that
(05:55):
was a white side of town errand and growing up
for me, growing up in Birmingham, you did not go
to the white side of town un Let's say when
classmate had a birthday or unless it was time to
go Christmas shopping. That was literally another universe. Yeah, so
where are you even finding the comic books? Like? Who
is your people? How did you get into this? You know?
I have to give a lot of credit for a
(06:16):
lot of my you know, geekedom in fandom to my
older brother Brian. You know, he was an avid collector,
so he had a bunch of gijoe comics. But it
was when he was growing up and going away to
you know, college and everything. He let me inherit his
comic book collection, which had a lot of the nineteen
seventies Batman comic books, you know what I mean, and
(06:38):
that you know vintage blue and gray jumpsuit, and so
you get a lot of those like seventies and eighties
Batman comics Death in the Family where you see the
second Robin passing away by the hands of a joker.
And so I was really fortunate to have a older
brother who was into a lot of geek stuff, Star Wars, Batman,
g I, Joe, and so it was from inheriting his
comics that I developed a joint of In addition, you
(07:01):
know Ashton I as well was watching all those weekday
cartoons in the afternoon, X Men and Batman. The animated
series so really developed and coalesced through. I mean, I
think the animated series for Batman is when the groundbreaking
series of all time. And so it was really in
that pocket that I really embraced, you know, my geeked
them in a way and grew to have such a
(07:22):
love affair with this art form. Now, Hebrew, you took
it to another level because you started drawing and actually
trying to do something with all this stuff, unlike these
two shiftless Negroes. How did representation, you know, how did
that inspire your work? Like did you ever feel a
moment and you know, and Ashton Aaron feel free to
(07:43):
jump in on this as well. Was there ever a
character where you're like, oh, damn, that's gonna be my
through line or that's the one that that inspired me
to go to the next level with this. No, man,
you know, I'm probably a little older than you know,
the brothers on the panel, And for me, it was
like I came into it through my mom. My mom
(08:05):
was just a reader. My mom would read everything, and
she just wanted me to be a reader. And I
wouldn't connect with anything, you know, like I would pick
up something started and not finished. And then she introduced
me to comics books, but it was her way. So
it was like Archie and all that shit that I
excuse me, I don't know, okay, but but you know
the stuff that again, it just was a little too
(08:27):
white for me, you know, and and and it wasn't funny.
And then I gravitated more towards like X Men and
all that stuff. And I think that like, you know,
my first introduction before comics or kind of maybe at
the same time to black heroes is a questionable black hero,
which is Panther from ThunderCats. Yes, yeah, yes, Pantonic. They
(08:49):
just always made him fix exactly that. And then he
had nunchucks, you know what I mean, nause love nunchucks.
Let's just do that. And it was you know, you know,
Panther was voiced by the Grandfather on the Cosby show.
Oh yes, yes, no, y sense yeah, and it was
so you know, he had that deep black man like
you know, I feel like as my grandfather talking to me.
(09:10):
So and that was his character in the show. He
was like kind of voice of reason. He was like no,
you know, like you being a pussy's like come on
stop now, like yeah, let's stop, let's stop this ship.
But um but no, but in our sincerity, Like that
was sort of my way in. And then it was like,
you know, the eleven year old boy and me saw
Storm and that was like, oh, okay, that's this is
(09:31):
speaking to me on a few a few levels, right,
it's not right. But you know, when it came to
my stuff, I think, you know, it wasn't I think
it's just a culmination of just like all these things
that I've sort of ingested over the years, you know
what I mean, Like these different different heroes, different characters.
But you know, I think, man, we all were hooked
on blonde haired, blue eye Superman for the longest time, right,
(09:56):
because that's all we were fed. Yeah, you know. The
closest I came to books, I would read comic strips
in the newspaper every day. I grew up in a
newspaper house, so especially on Sundays, we passed the paper
around the table and you just read all the different sections,
and so, you know, to that point, he wrote, like
I'm trying to think, And you know, Birmingham media, especially
(10:21):
print media, is hell of conservative back in those days.
So I don't even think I saw the Boomdocks until
late nineties. But to me, the blackest thing I saw
in the newspaper was of the Phantom, and he was vigilante.
He was tan up shit. No. The only reason why
I thought he was black because he was the Jungles
(10:42):
all the time. And then the movie came out they
had Billy out Black Panther for all. It was such
a lack of black characters out there. I had to
identify with Beasts from The X Man because he was
blue at least, and so someone that you can still
(11:03):
see yourself in because you cann't really see yourself in Cyclops.
You can't really even though you have Wolverine, he was dope,
you cann't see yourself in that. So at least with
Beasts being blue, you can still kind of seat a
little bit. It's not until you get Bishop coming too
the X Men two, where Bishop is just a strong,
like six foot six black guy with like wavy jet
black hair and just had a Jerry curl. He had
(11:27):
a Jerry curl. Bishop looked like he was running back
for the race. But how did that make you feel?
He ruined Ashton, like when you saw a brother that
looked like your uncle from a family barbecue in a
comic book, because I remember seeing for me it was
(11:47):
Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, Ken, Griffith jen those were the
three black athletes that made me feel like, oh, he's
doing especially both because he's from around the corner Birmingham suburb.
So like I remember that feeling of man, I can
do this because he looks like me. Did was that
was that your character? Aaron was Jerry curl Man. Bishop
(12:08):
was that? I mean, because at that point you're really
grasping for some sort of representation. So you get that
with Bishop, Right, you have a person who's not from
the time period that the X Men are taking place,
and he's from a dystopian future and he's coming back
to right the wrongs that kind of led way to
his horrible future, you know, where he isn't happening. So
but Bishop was a little bit off his rocker, you
(12:28):
know what I mean. But it was okay because he was.
He was really cool and militaristic in a way, so
I really gravitated to that he brought. I'll start with
you on this question. Do you think that black cartoons
outside the mainstream get enough credit or get enough attention,
you know, like within the mainstream culture. How much do
(12:49):
black cartoons get their props from the mainstreams the way
that they deserve. Is the tide changing ish a little bit?
Or is it still kind of pick and choose? I
think it's picking shoes man, Like I don't know any
I mean, besides like Boondocks, obviously that that had a
real moment, right and it still does. I think it
kind of reverberates, you know, when you get people you know,
(13:11):
sort of reposting memes and things like that, and how
how it sort of lived through. But you're talking, we're
really both more so more so the TV show because
that's what everybody you know, like that's where a lot
of people found it, you know what I mean. And
so I think beyond that, man, there really hasn't been
like we've only just been sidekicks, um, you know to
(13:34):
the white characters. And I'm not you know, it's just
you know, we get a proud family every now and then.
You know, we have little blips on on the mass,
but there is it's it's here, it's out. Yeah, it's
really and it's it's good. But again, like we don't
you know, I think I feel like it's the it's
the quota situation. It happens in Hollywood all the time.
(13:56):
I mean years ago, you know when Hollywood uh found
out that you know, black was cool. Um again after
Black Panther, I mean, black was profitable. There you go black,
Yeah exactly, we can make money off these folks. Um.
You know, it was just that thing of like let's
retro fit Uh, this character who was probably a white man,
(14:16):
Let's make him black. But they don't really change anything
except for just you know, replacing the actor or the person,
not necessarily reforming the character. And I feel like that
happens in cartoons and animation all the time, where it's
just like, you know, we have to feel like, all right,
we have how many black kids we have in this group? Oh,
(14:37):
let's get a black kid in here real quick. Um,
you don't, right, I mean, have y'all seen the new
Velma TV show No, yeah, yeah, where Shaggy's black back,
don't smoke weed, you don't even get high. And I
don't even know what kind of Shaggy that is. You know,
this is not Shaggy Like. It's like when it comes
(14:58):
to like where you're talking about where they we skin
white characters for put a black face on white characters.
We need representation, but that it's it's the other side
of that. It's like, yeah, I like Shaggy. I've been
watching to Scooby Dooo. You know what's wild about that too,
is that it's one of the things I feel like
white people and black people both agree on because black
people want their own stories and white people don't want
(15:19):
to see their favorite characters, you know, dipping chocolate. Yeah,
I agree, Like, well, listen you say that, and then
you'd be like, hey, you know, Jesus, that guy might
have been you might have started off the original Spero. Yeah.
But then you even take something like say Miles Morality,
(15:42):
where you have Spider Man into the spidy Verse, right,
which was an animated film with a black Spider Man
who you know, hold spider Verse or whatever, and it
did so well. There was there was rumblings for a
quick minute, oh, I bet they should do a live
action Miles Morales, and then it was like, nah, we're
(16:04):
just gonna get out. But I feel like that that,
you know again with that, listen, Miles is one of
my favorite characters in comics. Um and you know, I
love the character, although they've never really given him to uh,
you know, a decent black writer or group of black creators,
(16:25):
which they should have. But you know, with that movie,
I think that movie worked because it was just a
good movie, right, Like they they really honed in on
making Miles feel authentic, his neighborhood feel felt authentic, his
his parents shit feels like Miles. Miles last name is Morales,
and his dad's last name. What's his dad's last name? Right, Like,
(16:48):
that's that's the real shit, you know what I mean, Like,
that's not even his daddy. My last name, my dad
last name, Lomax. They just having a rhyme. Not so.
I think I think they did a good job in
bringing in some authenticity. I think that we will start
to see more of that. But you know, again, it's
like where you know, Hollywood's motivated by the dollars and
(17:11):
as long as you know Peter Parker, like we'll get
the black miles in real time at one point. But
you know, white, white, white spider Man is uh is
still you know, very very thankful. So after the break,
I want to talk to you a little bit more. Um,
I want to talk to all of you actually about
how we can introduce new black characters, new black ip
(17:35):
into the world of comic books and eventually matriculating into
television and profitable movie franchises for you Hebrew, but also
the hurdles that you've dealt with and trying to break
through new concepts and what that world is like. This
is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes.
(17:55):
We are back. We are talking the world of black superheroes.
And while we're you only get the same couple of
superheroes remix, even though we got a hold universe black
stories waiting in the queue to be told. One of
our guests has been creating some of these characters, now, Hebrew,
walk us through this journey, because I want to talk
(18:17):
a little bit this break just about a lot of
the existing black movie IP and how it came to
actual fruition. But I want to talk with you first
just from the ideation of drawing a character, creating the character,
creating a comic around the character. Walk us through that
journey of what that was like. Because are you writing,
(18:39):
are you creating a character like like with television like
ash And I know you know this, Like with television,
the trick is do you want to write and create
a character that you know everybody will gravitate towards that
they'll like? Are you writing what you like and then
you're making people get on board with what you're into? Well,
(19:00):
I think for me, my journey is really unique in
a way that I didn't start out trying to create
a comic or anything like that. I you know, I
come from the world of high art, right so like,
you know, paintings for galleries, museums, et cetera. And in
doing that over the years and trying to find my voice,
I kind of accidentally landed on this idea. A lot
(19:22):
of the work that I was doing early in my
career it had it had a lot of angst to it.
You know, it was very pro black or maybe a
little bit too much, you know, skewed a little too
dark or heavy handed, so to speak. And I think,
you know, within the gallery world, in that space, you
kind of have to you know, you have to walk aline.
You know, there's there's you have to be very clever
(19:43):
about how you say certain things. And so for me
it was like, you know, the advice that I got
from a lot of my my peers was like, man,
you know, you have to paint things that you know,
that you're familiar with, the things that feel like you.
And for me, growing up, you know, self professor sort
of black nerd on comics, cartoons, anime, all that shit,
(20:05):
trying to really figure out what that was. And it
wasn't until you know, a few years after college where
I had found myself in that place that we all
do where it's like, man, what's what's the next thing?
And you know, I found a book on World War Two,
just was thumbing through it and landed on the Tuskegee
Airman and with Tuskegee Airman, you know, man, it was
(20:27):
just it was like a lightning ball that hit me
because it was like, man, nobody has really touched on
these brothers from the standpoint of like like their journey
was so powerful. It struck me in this way because
the time in which they existed, the time in which
they were charged with doing certain things, our world was
a mess. I mean, it's not that different from where
(20:48):
it is now. But we're talking, we're talking World War
We're talking you know, within America, blacks you know, treated
significantly less than right. But then they're allowed and ta
to fly these planes and they do it successfully. And
these brothers are buttoned up, and you know, they are
the sort of personification of what manhood is right and
(21:09):
what heroism is. And so I found that and I
just thought about, like, man, like what if there was
like this, this, this, this, this character or these characters
that exist at that time just kind of forgot about, right,
like it happens all the time. These cartoons that fall
off the shelf and never get seen. And so I
created Flatboy, which became sort of my state boy ip,
(21:30):
but as kind of a lark like within the high
art space and just like creating this show, like presupposing
that I found this this animation project that never that
never saw the light of day, and I presented it
like that to my audience and like some found footage. Yeah,
so it was it was kind of you know, just
bringing people in that way because I felt like that
(21:50):
was the easiest way then just to say, you know, hey,
I created this thing whole claw, checked this out, um
and it people started to bite, you know, folks coming
too the show. The response was great, but it wasn't
just a response to like, you know, because there was
no narrative behind it for real, for it, like there
was no story through line or anything like that. But
(22:11):
people started graving him as a Tuskegee airman. Did you
present him as black or was he just all goggled
up and scarfed up, goggled, black faced little kid, you know,
with or without superpowers? Take it, you know, take it
with you will. But I think that people were allowed
to read into it, and I think that there was
sort of like this message behind it, of empowerment that
people really you know, they they felt. And so as
(22:35):
I started doing more and more shows, the expectation for
more and more of these paintings, you know, grew, and
people were coming to the shows looking for Flyboy. I
had people making you know, like little Halloween costumes, just
you know, cheap little aviator goggles, red red scarfs, et cetera.
And so it just grew into a thing where, you know,
it wasn't it wasn't intended to be, you know, a
(22:58):
thing that I continued on with. It was intended to
just be this moment. But as it started to grow
and my understanding of it started to grow, I started
to attach narrative to it, because you know, nobody knew
the origins or they weren't coming for that. They were
just coming for the aesthetics and the messaging behind it.
And so, you know, a few years back, I finally, uh,
(23:19):
you know, created a comic. You know, it's my first run,
and you know, like any junior, you know, novice to
a thing, I pretty much wrote myself into a corner
by issue too. I like, I like killed off one
of the main characters by issue too. And I was like,
(23:40):
oh shit, Uh so I kind of had to like
you know, wheel it back, but like let those things
exist on an island by themselves and then sort of
retool and recreate something. But again, all that to say that,
you know, it wasn't me intending to make something, uh,
to make this what it what it what it's become.
It was sort of a happy accident. But you know
(24:02):
again through that has bared you know a lot of
really really really strong fruit. Okay, so then you create
Flyboy and then you're you're eventually going to be at
a crossroads if you aren't already that a lot of
black content creators are going to be at now where
you have an idea and the tradeoff for exposure and
(24:24):
money is new cooks get to come into kitchen and
tinker with the season and on this dish that you've
perfected up until this point. How difficult is it to
try and navigate deciding on how to hold onto your
ip as things start to grow, Because when we talk
about this idea, that there's this backlog of all of
(24:46):
these black ideas and black comic strip shows that are
out there that deserve to be seen and deserved to
be made in the movies, But how much of it
is the studios and the labels and the distribution works
creating an impossible contract that you just possibly can't agree to.
And is that one of the hurdles that is keeping
(25:09):
something like say Flyboy from truly expanding to something even
greater from flying if you like, like, like, how difficult
is it to try and keep control of your eye
because you're trying to grow this shit? But then to
grow it, you got to give it to somebody that
gets to go, I do whatever I want. If we
can make flyboyd and give them a sister and Flyboy
(25:31):
and tell her, let's make them thirty four fly man, No,
I mean, you know, it's it's it's a task. But
I think for me, again, my situation is unique in
the sense that like, this isn't a comic book, right
that you're selling for five bucks? Right, These are paintings
that sell for you know, thousands of dollars. Right, you
(25:51):
got to take your price, So don't tell them your price.
But you know these are these are collectibles that I've created,
in statues that I've created that you know are now
seen all around the world. These are collectibles that you know,
go on eBay for triple the price. You know, you're
talking four or five thousand dollars for some plastic you know, figurines.
(26:15):
And with that, you know, it kind of changes my
narrative when coming into Hollywood because it's like the product
is proven, and you know, I'm only doing this on
a smaller level when it comes to you know, I'm
keeping it contained at a very limited number, but you
know it's proven. Look, these are the numbers here, and
this is just this is just me doing it. So
(26:36):
you know, if we start to bring this thing out
to the masses, you know it's going to obviously change
and you're gonna, you know, get more eyes around it,
gain more fandom around it, and you know, obviously you
know it's able to grow, the IP grows, et cetera.
But just me being able to do it on my
own is already I think a lot more than most
(26:59):
are able to kind of come in the game with.
Like most folks are coming in with the idea if
it's a if it's a book, or if it's a script.
You know, that's not as leverageable as you know, building
out a world, doing you know, exhibitions, I did an
experiential exhibition in Chicago a few years ago called Nevermore
Park where basically I created the world of Flyboy and
(27:23):
you kind of walk through in this experience, basically through
an origin story of this character, right, And you know,
we had, like, we had a couple hundred thousand visitors
to it. I bought like like fifty thousand tickets for
CPS students so they were able to kind of come through.
You know, it really expanded you know, our again our
(27:45):
fan base and in a lot of ways, and also
show them sort of another side because they're only familiar
with the paintings. And you know, again, having had all
of that gives me a little bit more leveraged in
those conversations with different studios, Aston Aaron, why don't studios
(28:06):
accept the fact that black superhero hit movies are not
an anomaly? It irks me that the first Iron Man
is credited with being the beginning of the Marvel surives.
It irks me when we all know the truth, yeah,
(28:29):
is that it was Blade. We do we do now?
They didn't connect Blade to none of the other ship
and maybe that's why they try not to write it off.
Blade had a budget of about forty forty five million,
if I'm not mistaken, grossed about a hundred. It made
about a hundred. Didn't know it did one thirty It
did by one thirty one forty it made it made
(28:50):
its money back, and then another hundred million. Yeah, a sequel, right,
two sequels, Yeah, it got it got sequels and a
TV series which spike cancer because they said they couldn't
afford the special effects. That's a true story. So why
don't these films like why what? Like, let's just talk
about the erasure of Blade? Yeah, is there do you
(29:12):
think do you even agree with that point? Aaron? Let's
just start there, think, I mean, we can go a
step further, just talk about the erasure of Wesley Snipes.
But I think, well, he would have paid his taxes.
I mean, well, you know him and Ryan Reynolds didn't
get along trying to play Wesley as a diva. But
(29:33):
the thing about that story, yeah, it was a lot
of It was a lot of commotion apparently with that
Blade Trinity production. But we have to take it back
to the nineteen nineties and understand that before Blade the film,
there isn't a successful Marvel film adaptation at that point
you have the Captain America film, which is from the
nineteen nineties, which is it's not what we have with
Chris Evans now, and then Lundering Punisher, failed Dolphin under Punisher,
(29:58):
cult classic but not a hit by any means. And
then you have this buried Roger Corman Fantastic four film
that wasn't even released to the general public and you
can only find copies of it at Comic Con. And
so Marvel was doing this thing of licensing out their characters,
not building an overall universe, but lightning them out to
twentieth Century Fox, lightning them out to Colombian Pictures, Sony,
(30:21):
and just seeing what it got. It wasn't as much
of a creative powerhouse in the film game as it
is today. And so you get this film called Blade,
which is rated R, which is bloody violet, vampire flick,
action flick, and it literally it becomes a hit. It
becomes a hit because of the performance of Blaye, because
of this representation of this black superhero. But it also
(30:42):
creates a door for us to get X Men in
two thousand, for us to get Spider Man in two
thousand and two, and all the various films that come
and kind of give us modern contemporary visual adaptations of
superheroes on film. And so I just think it's just
one of those things where people don't want to get
black character and black actors and performers the credit in
its old fashioned racism. They're trying to you know, qualify
(31:05):
with different metrics and whatnot. But Blade was a hit
to generate two more films in the film in this
series adaptation, but again they want something more. Um, But
did they go was some of the mother black characters
we got the fat Like why didn't Marvel go digging
the crates? Yeah, because a lot of those characters are
whack as hell? Why? Yeah, well he black panther. Think
(31:31):
about like the one of the hurdles had to overcome
a black panther was Umbaku's character. He was just a
racist gorilla in the comic books. He was just straight
up a gorilla, like a monkey that was his power
monkey man or or something like that. And they had
to like actually content like make him a modern character
for today and get rid of the racist trope that
he was. So I'm sure they go and look through
(31:53):
their their their a list of black characters and half
of them are just stereotypes, even with Black Panther. Black Panther,
you know, was a character that was created by Jack Kirby.
Rest in peace. Jack Kirby one of the greatest comic
book creators of all time. But you know, Jack Kirby's
not a brother and I'm pretty sure, like I don't
I don't think Jack had many brothers on his roller decks. Like,
(32:15):
hey man, I'm bringing this character called the Black Panther
and let me get these notes of all. Also, can
I just can I just shout this out. This is
a very very problem moment in my life of nerd them.
But my my paintings and my figures were in Wakanda
forever hard. That's hard, and shout out for that. It
(32:37):
was like the biggest nerve moment. You know. It was
all quiet in the theater and I saw my ship
and I just let its fire. You'd be like, Joe,
this movie the greatest movie in the world. I don't know,
I love this movie. Then let's let's stay on that
d to it for a second. Then how do you
get that call? Do you get a call from like
secret number unknown and hello, he is it? Samuel L.
(33:00):
Jackson with an eye passing shield. You get an how
you do this? Ryan, it has to be Nate Moore,
somebody maybe. Yeah, I know I know Ryan through through
Mike right, So I got I got a chance to
hang out on the first Black Panther set Michael B Jordan. Yeah,
mid that was wild. Sorry, I was like, Michael Jordan,
(33:25):
you know Michael Jordan's I was like, do I know Mike.
It's somebody, I'm Mike. We all know, oh man, oh
of b Jordan's fame, Okay, of b Jordan's um, And
so you know, I was able to kind of go
you know that route. But again the space that I
kind of moved maneuver in in terms of like, you know,
(33:48):
black visual artists, you know, on the on the painting
and sculpting side, and again playing multiple way multiple has.
I'm one of few, so I think that, you know,
that kind of helps me maneuver and get to get
to know these folks. And um. I saw Ryan Kogler
in Atlanta when he first was coming back to start
(34:08):
Black Panther too. We ran into each other at the
hotel and I was like, I was messing with it.
I was like trying to juice him for you know,
some uh, some some gossip. I needed to know what
was what was going to happen, some script story, give
me something. Of course he didn't give me shit, but
it was cool. But I think that, like I would
like to think that, you know, as Ryan is sculpting
this and this is so you know, Black Panther is
(34:29):
so cultural, right, It's not just about Wakanda, but like
when you look at even Wakanda Forever, like there's lines
about fenty Beauty in there, there's you know, it's it's
black culture. It's not just this fake African culture. And
so I think that, you know, they do such a
good job of being fully immersive and aware of what's
going on, you know, outside in this world that they
(34:52):
bring into this Marvel world to make it feel real
for us. And I think that you know, the character
re re from Chicago me being sort of you know,
Chicago's you know, you know some of my characters sort
of being the mascots in certain instances. For Chicago, I
think that it was just, you know, it's one of
those things that just really worked. And I'll be honest
(35:12):
with you, and this is gonna sound like reflects, but
you know it takes so long to make these movies
that I forgot they even asked because it was like
four years ago. Yeah, oh my god, that's true. So
you know, it was like when I watched the movie,
You're in the movie, and then I see my shit
on her desk in the workshop, and then I see
my shit in the wall. In a way, I'm like,
(35:32):
oh my god, me and you're different. You show me
something I did four years ago. I'm like, I'm gonna
need that. I'm gonna need a cease and desist. I
need that taken down. I need all that. After the break,
I want to bring it home and talk about how
we can expand black storytelling, you know, not only in
comic books, but as it gets into television and what
(35:54):
it is. What do you think could happen and what
you think probably won't happen. I gotta question for all
three after the break, this is beyond the scenes. Beyond
the scenes. This has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation about
black comic books and black superheroes. And you know, whether
(36:14):
we can get a couple more on the screen that
aren't remixed versions of old nineteen forty two stereotype I'm
gonna write me a black super You're gonna be called
jive Turkey, and every time he kills somebody, he goes
your dig. I like that. You tell me, I bet
you that shit get green lit. By what I'm saying now,
I'll never be able to go back home to Birmingham again.
(36:37):
Hero No, I can't go to Essence fast after you,
you dig. I got another idea. It's like Teen Titans
but called the Young Bloods. Okay, how honest can the
black experience be infused into Black supper heroo narratives? Do
(37:01):
you think there's still space for expansion, Ashton? I mean not,
I think there. I know there's space for expansion. Really
get made, though, I mean it's up to us. We gotta.
I mean it's up to us. We can't let white
media or American media control the stories that we tell.
I feel like one of my inspirations is Tony Morrison.
(37:22):
I'm pretty sure she was like, I tell stories, I
don't exclude black people. I mean i'll exclude white people.
I tell stories from a black experience and therefore black people.
That's the kind of superhero story. I want to see
a story that's truly all around made for black people.
It involves every aspect of black culture, and it does
not have to capitulate to modern mainstream America modern society
(37:45):
have to like do Why is it always black stories
that have to do reach across the aisle so everybody
else can feel seen and accept it. We ain't never
been nobody reached across side for us. Why can't I talk?
It revolves around the dollar I think for me being
able to spend a little time in you know, Hollywood
and having all these conversations right like, you know, studios
(38:08):
are I mean, you know these cats, they're not original,
and it's the dollars the bottom line. So I'm going
to reach back in the catalog of things that we've
done already that people are familiar with because once upon
a time it lived, and we're gonna redo that to death.
And then we ain't got nothing else, right, Hopefully we
have our our our Ryan Coogler's or our you know,
(38:31):
our Jordan Peels. Those are the only brothers that are
would be allowed to introduce something new at this moment,
right like, with a little bit of radicalness to it. Yes,
approved state a maybe maybe, I think so, I mean,
(38:52):
but yeah, and Yeah, not to exclude Aba at all.
I think she's absolutely one of those ones. But you know,
it's gonna take someone of that ilk to get that
thing across. I think, like you look at the time
in the nineties you talked about somebody mentioned, you know,
meteor Man, right, like Medior Man doesn't get made even
(39:13):
as a comedy if Robert Townsend doesn't have all that
good will that he's built up right in those relationships. Yeah,
those relationships that he's built with all these phenomenal black
comedians and talent where he can get you know, get
(39:33):
those folks in at a price, so he can make
his movie at a price. Right, And again, it still
kind of had to be you know, it's not to
down media Man, because I love Media Man, but it
had to be a comedy, right, It had to be
a comedy. And it definitely plays on those nineties tropes
of like the Bad Neighborhood and the game gold Laws,
(39:53):
right give me. And unfortunately the thing about Meteor Man,
it was a box office flops, right, And so when
that happens, Robert Townsend goes into Hollywood jail, can't direct
for a little bit, or has to go make the
Parenthood on television, which is a great series as well.
(40:14):
But so you don't really get that meteor Man too.
And so, you know, and I think we kind of
overlooked the importance of Black Panther being that it was
Marvel's I think it was Marvel's either eighteenth or nineteen
film at that point, and it was the first ever
Marvel film to be nominated for Best Picture. And so
just Marvel gross to everything that came before, you know,
(40:36):
and again that's a that's a one part in a
series of these episodic films that people were just Okay,
we're doing this film to get to the next point.
But Black Panther was a cultural moment. It was a phenomena.
It was a phenomenon really, and then Marvel was like, hey, yeah, hey, yeah,
look at that. Look at what we did. And so
it's kind of like, you know, you get those hits,
but to try to get to that level and to
(40:57):
maintain that, I feel there's way more pressure on Black
There's way more of a see we told you that
it wouldn't sail, and then that opportunity gets yanked away
when so many other folks in Hollywood can take swings
and miss but still be able to make other films.
And so I think the playing field for us is
very limited, and so you got to either get up
and hit a home run or you might not get
(41:17):
that chance. Honestly. One of those challenges, though, Aaron, to
what you're saying, even when you're talking about media, man,
is that you know we haven't we as as as
black folks and folks of color, Brian Large, haven't been
taught or haven't been welcomed into the conversation of science fiction. Yeah, right,
And so you know, if this hero is playing in
(41:41):
theaters one through nine and Tyler Perry is playing in
theater ten, listen, I mean seriously, like I'm off the
streets with my lady. I'm going on a date. I'm
not speaking just with myself, but but I'm gonna goal
with Tyler Perry. That's a brand name for me, and
it's something relatable, right, And I think that you know
(42:01):
the fact that categorically we have not been put into
science fiction films in that narrative forever, like we had,
we'd always be one of us, right, Like you know,
Billy dee Wis is the only nigga in space for
how right? He finally let LaVar burden in space. He
was blind right, he had shout out in front of
(42:26):
the show. So to the creators, to the black content
creators and writers that are listening to us, he real,
how do you allow your work to be the truest
version of yourself? Like you have a coffee table book
that you've just put together. That's a good sale at all? Oh,
(42:47):
I can already care from the cover of that book,
asking that's one of the books you put on the
table and press went present. Yea, it could be the
only It could be the only thing on the table too,
next to a blade candle. I don't know nothing about handles.
As you look back at all of the work that
you've done enough to put into a book, which is
already a crazy accomplishment to think about that you've done
(43:09):
enough that you went you know what, And I know
that's not even everything you're done, that's just the hits.
How did you allow your art to be the truest
version of yourself and not be influenced by what they
might buy or what could How did you stay true
to what you wanted to do versus what you thought
(43:30):
people wanted to see. I think my artists sort of
always been a bit of like my own diary, right,
My art always reflects where I'm at, you know, emotionally, mentally,
and so I think that, like, you know, with art,
starting out there was not really a big risk. You know,
you just do a thing. I'm working. I got two
(43:51):
other jobs over here, making you know, horrible money, being
a horrible employee. But it wasn't a risk to just
make some shit at night and stay up all night
and create some stuff. So I think that like starting
out from an honest place of just like I just
need to express myself, you know, it's it's it's an
easier upstart than you know, I didn't have to start
(44:13):
out and from a place of like, I have to
make things in order to pay the bills to survive,
so I have to work according to everybody else's sort
of level or expectation of what is good and what's cool.
The thing that stuck with me a long time ago
was most death said, I just always wanted to grow
(44:34):
up and make cool shit. And it's a very simple statement,
but that's sort of how I lived in that sense
of like, if I can always be honest with myself
in my work. I'll be okay no matter what other
work I have to do, Like, I have my outlet,
and my outlet has now become my career and my occupation. So,
(44:54):
you know, just one of those things that really kind
of worked out. I'm lucky how And I'll end with
the question to all of you. And now we've already
kind of talked about whether or not we think that
there will be more black superhero stories. I think that
there will. I think, you know, whether or not they
will be able to touch on all of the different
intricacies that is the Black experience across the diaspora. You know,
(45:19):
that's depending on the producer and the level of trust
the studio has in that director. Blah blah blah. But
once these fucking shows are on the air, do you
think they'll give him time to find an audience? Bad? Damn.
So there was a great show on c W calling
The Yummy. It was about a black girl teenager an
early team. Yeah. Correct. And then Michael B. Jordan your
(45:44):
excuse me, Mike he Ep the show on Netflix Raising,
which was about a young single mom raising a black
boy with superpoles and how you navigate single mother, single
parents with the superpower like being able to turn the
genre on its head a little bit. But neither one
of those shows. Naomi got a season. I think Raising
(46:05):
de Young got two from Netflix if I'm not mistaken.
So how do we get these places to steal just
give shows time to find their audience or is that
just strictly money and we're screwed. I think that's just
the old days, man. This is this is all of
the numbers game, you know, financial and and you know viewership.
(46:28):
I think it's just there's so many people buying for
those spots and those slots, and you know, the turnaround
is just a lot faster these days where it's not network,
so they don't have to invest so much time and
energy into a you know, look at seinfeld Man. How
many how many seasons did it take for seinfeld to
actually pick up two? Maybe three? Right? He would have
(46:50):
been canceled. He That's my fear for the story of
the black superhero. It is that even if these stories
and the diverseness and the disc and the difference of
all of the types of stories you want to tell,
even if all that gets greenlet once you're out there
and you're on the playing field, are you going to
get the support, Are you going to get the advertising? No,
(47:12):
are you gonna be given the runway? You need to
actually find it here, Like if the CW won't give
you a chance and nobody black Lightning and you're going
to be And that's it is, like get out of here.
Even we gotta put on another season of Flash. We
just gotta, we gotta leverage our white allies privilege. Taylor Swift,
(47:32):
if you listen to this, I know what you did
for Ticketmaster, do that for season three. But I think
you speak to a really important point of like there's
a pressure for the artists um to create that will
have a long lasting effect and have success. And that's
a hard place to come from from an artist like
he mentioned, he you know, just created, you know what
(47:55):
I mean, He was free to create. He wasn't caring
about if this character I p that he created it
would one day you know, you know, connect with a
large He was just doing him. And so I think
more initiatives and programs for up and coming black voices
and artists, like the Milestone Initiative for Black Creative for
Milestone Comics, and I mean we've already went so much
(48:15):
time without even bringing up Milestone Comics, which is basically, yeah,
like formed by black creators with black characters, more of
an authentic voice. And so they actually developed not too
long ago a pipeline program for aspiring black creatives who
want to you know, create comic book heroes and superheroes
and play in that world. And so again, like no
(48:38):
one can forecast the future, especially when it comes to
media in particular, but what we can do is just develop,
you know, opportunities to identify in spotlight some of those
up and coming voices who can give us the next
Static Shock, who can give us the next you know,
Icon or you know Rocket, someone like that, who were
featured in Milestone Comics that gave nuanced portrals of blackness
(49:00):
in comic books, right like, they gave us not just
this binary approach to life for black people, but so
much more of it. Gave us that world building aspect
that you find a lot with Hebrew's character Flyboy. You know,
it's not just one character, it's a whole world of
experiences that we're looking to build. And so if we
can develop more programs like that and identify more up
(49:20):
and coming voices, I think that's a that's a start,
but like you said, who knows when it comes to
television and film. I mean, the bottom line is the dollar,
and so we're always going to be fighting that. Well.
I think that's it's good a place to end. And also,
see Debbie, I forgot that you gave us a lot
of seasons of black lightning. I'm sorry for raising my
voice with that decide. Thank you so much, Ashton Hebrew,
(49:47):
much respect to you. We look forward to seeing your
work and Black Panther Part three, and I have my
lawyers reach out to you. Some of you work in
my movie Jib Turkey. Let's go he who might have
a proof of concept? Right now, I'm trying to you know,
I'm trying to write myself in as a sidekick, so
(50:09):
your blood could be a team of people or one person.
I'll be here. And where can we get the book?
He Brew? Where can people order the book? Your local bookstore,
preferably you know people, they still they still exist, folks,
please patronize you know, mom and pop bookshops. But other
than that, the bald white Man spot mister bezos uh
(50:30):
can go to Amazon and pick one up right there,
delivered right to you. You know, there's so many weird
names of businesses in New York that I thought that
was a real business. I had to say that. All right,
oh man, it's a great discussion. That's all the time
we have for today. Thank you all so much for
going beyond the scenes with us. Give me some theme music.
(50:55):
Listen to the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on the
iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts.
M
Welcomely to Beyond the Scenes, the Daily Show podcast that
goes deeper into topics and discussions and segments that originally
aired on The Daily Show. Like this is what you
gotta think of this podcast us. This podcast is like
you know, you know how you go to church. You
go to church, you can go to heaven. This podcast
is them little sandwiches you get after church. Like you know,
you go to church and you can praise the Lord,
(00:29):
but then down there in the fellowship hall, they got
them a little finger sandwiches and they got all them
little the little peppermints. That being the bottom of a black,
black lady's purse. That's what this podcast is. I think
that analogy works. This Black History Month, we are taking
a look at a CP time I did not too
long ago, about the history of black superheroes, and we
(00:51):
talked about some of the more notable superheroes in black history.
Give me a clip. Black superheroes are not new. In fact,
they've been squeezing into spandex for decades. They didn't as
far back as nineteen thirty six, when cartoonist j Jackson
created Speed. Jackson in the Chicago Defended newspaper Speed Jackson
(01:13):
was a former track star at Howard University who was
an excellent fistfighter, which may not sound powerful compared to
today's superheroes with their laser eyes and sticky spider hands,
which you have to think about it. Like sports, today's
best athletes of the pinnacle of human physicality, while the
best athletes from the nineteen thirties were just the ones
(01:33):
with the least polio times change, Jackson used his abilities
to fight against fascists during the war and right the
wrongs of a racist society, which is tough because superpowers
don't help when you fight in systemic racism. Doesn't matter
if you have the strength of ten men if none
of those men can get a mortgage to help me
dive a little bit deeper into this topic. We've got
(01:56):
a lot of brothers. We're gonna go around the horn
here real quick. First up, as a fight nerd and
stand up comedian and daily show writer, super nerd Ashton. Woman,
I'm trying to disrespect you, gangster. I appreciate, I appreciate
you know you're still Houston, you know what I'm saying. Yeah,
(02:17):
how many times have you been on this show? Like?
What number is this again, like you have to like,
I think it's like my fourth time. Give a tap,
give a take. Yeah. Also joining us is a comic
artist who creates narrative driven work and incorporates his own
character creations into his work. Hebrew Brantley, Hebrew, how you
doing today? What's up? Roy? I'm great man, I'm I'm
(02:40):
glad to be on. I appreciate you guys happening well.
Appreciate you for being smart enough to not join us
in this hot ass studio, nice and air conditioned where
you are. Television is torture here, it's torture. Also, for
the very first time, this man's work has helped make
this podcast happen. Up until now, we have a senior
(03:00):
producer and self professed geek of all things, Aaron Lamar Brolson. Aaron,
how you doing testing one too? Wow? This is how
it feels like going beyond the scenes. All right, yea
all actually, yeah, I'm doing great. Roy. It's it's a
pleasure and honor to be on the show with you.
Normally you're normally helping to produce all these segments and
put all the wheels on the car so it can
(03:22):
go room. But thank you for settling in on this
one because Ashton we was like, yeah, we talking about
black gigs, and Aaron's like, well, you know, I have
a lot to say about it. I'll just write myself
into the episode. Yeah, I was like, you should be
the episode. What what are we here for? So I'll
go around the horn to the three of you. First.
I want to know when you first started reading comic
(03:45):
books and becoming engrossed in the world of comic books,
and when you recognize your first black comic superhero, because
I'm gonna be honest for me, I grew up with
budget limitations and so you know where I'm from. You
could really shoose one of two things. You could collect
baseball cards or you could collect comic books. You could
(04:05):
not afford both, and with a little bit of extra
money I did have, I would spend that on video
game magazine, shout out to GamePro, shout out to Electronic
Game and monthly shout out to Nintendo Power. So I
never Yeah, I was like you speaking to my nerd
heart right now. So I never. I never dealt with
the comic books, And so there would be kids in
middle school they had the comic books, but I just
(04:27):
what I knew if comic books was the cartoons. If
it didn't have a Saturday morning cartoon, I couldn't tell
you anything about it. Knew nothing. But I could name
you who was on the bench for the Cincinnati Rids.
And so that's a different type of nerds. That's still
he's still in the house. So but but this is
but this is a world that I really do not
have much of a It does not connect to my
(04:49):
childhood if I'm just being one hunting. So I want
y'all to walk me through how you all got connected
in the comic books. Actually, I'll start with you, But
how did you get into comic books? And what was
the first like sense of represent tation that you saw?
I would say the way I got into comic books
was I grew up on Fox. They had weekday afternoon
cartoons and you'll watch X Men. You would watch all
the superhero cartoons, and that sparked my love for comic books. Now,
(05:13):
the first superhero that actually got me truly loving superhero
it's always been black superheroes. My first superhero I loved
was meteor Man. It's not a comic book, it's a movie.
Robert Towns and so many famous black actors. But I
was growing up as a kid, we would watching medior
Man eighteen thousand times a day. So then to that point, Aaron,
(05:34):
what did you discover? Because Media Man is that's a
movie you know? And Ashton, you know, you're kicking back
with his pops watching something that probably was that movie
was a little grown. It's a classic. It's a little
grown for your years old? What about you, Aaron? How
did you get into you? Like? Where did you go
to get them? Because yeah, like comic books was that
(05:55):
was a white side of town errand and growing up
for me, growing up in Birmingham, you did not go
to the white side of town un Let's say when
classmate had a birthday or unless it was time to
go Christmas shopping. That was literally another universe. Yeah, so
where are you even finding the comic books? Like? Who
is your people? How did you get into this? You know?
I have to give a lot of credit for a
(06:16):
lot of my you know, geekedom in fandom to my
older brother Brian. You know, he was an avid collector,
so he had a bunch of gijoe comics. But it
was when he was growing up and going away to
you know, college and everything. He let me inherit his
comic book collection, which had a lot of the nineteen
seventies Batman comic books, you know what I mean, and
(06:38):
that you know vintage blue and gray jumpsuit, and so
you get a lot of those like seventies and eighties
Batman comics Death in the Family where you see the
second Robin passing away by the hands of a joker.
And so I was really fortunate to have a older
brother who was into a lot of geek stuff, Star Wars, Batman,
g I, Joe, and so it was from inheriting his
comics that I developed a joint of In addition, you
(07:01):
know Ashton I as well was watching all those weekday
cartoons in the afternoon, X Men and Batman. The animated
series so really developed and coalesced through. I mean, I
think the animated series for Batman is when the groundbreaking
series of all time. And so it was really in
that pocket that I really embraced, you know, my geeked
them in a way and grew to have such a
(07:22):
love affair with this art form. Now, Hebrew, you took
it to another level because you started drawing and actually
trying to do something with all this stuff, unlike these
two shiftless Negroes. How did representation, you know, how did
that inspire your work? Like did you ever feel a
moment and you know, and Ashton Aaron feel free to
(07:43):
jump in on this as well. Was there ever a
character where you're like, oh, damn, that's gonna be my
through line or that's the one that that inspired me
to go to the next level with this. No, man,
you know, I'm probably a little older than you know,
the brothers on the panel, And for me, it was
like I came into it through my mom. My mom
(08:05):
was just a reader. My mom would read everything, and
she just wanted me to be a reader. And I
wouldn't connect with anything, you know, like I would pick
up something started and not finished. And then she introduced
me to comics books, but it was her way. So
it was like Archie and all that shit that I
excuse me, I don't know, okay, but but you know
the stuff that again, it just was a little too
(08:27):
white for me, you know, and and and it wasn't funny.
And then I gravitated more towards like X Men and
all that stuff. And I think that like, you know,
my first introduction before comics or kind of maybe at
the same time to black heroes is a questionable black hero,
which is Panther from ThunderCats. Yes, yeah, yes, Pantonic. They
(08:49):
just always made him fix exactly that. And then he
had nunchucks, you know what I mean, nause love nunchucks.
Let's just do that. And it was you know, you know,
Panther was voiced by the Grandfather on the Cosby show.
Oh yes, yes, no, y sense yeah, and it was
so you know, he had that deep black man like
you know, I feel like as my grandfather talking to me.
(09:10):
So and that was his character in the show. He
was like kind of voice of reason. He was like no,
you know, like you being a pussy's like come on
stop now, like yeah, let's stop, let's stop this ship.
But um but no, but in our sincerity, Like that
was sort of my way in. And then it was like,
you know, the eleven year old boy and me saw
Storm and that was like, oh, okay, that's this is
(09:31):
speaking to me on a few a few levels, right,
it's not right. But you know, when it came to
my stuff, I think, you know, it wasn't I think
it's just a culmination of just like all these things
that I've sort of ingested over the years, you know
what I mean, Like these different different heroes, different characters.
But you know, I think, man, we all were hooked
on blonde haired, blue eye Superman for the longest time, right,
(09:56):
because that's all we were fed. Yeah, you know. The
closest I came to books, I would read comic strips
in the newspaper every day. I grew up in a
newspaper house, so especially on Sundays, we passed the paper
around the table and you just read all the different sections,
and so, you know, to that point, he wrote, like
I'm trying to think, And you know, Birmingham media, especially
(10:21):
print media, is hell of conservative back in those days.
So I don't even think I saw the Boomdocks until
late nineties. But to me, the blackest thing I saw
in the newspaper was of the Phantom, and he was vigilante.
He was tan up shit. No. The only reason why
I thought he was black because he was the Jungles
(10:42):
all the time. And then the movie came out they
had Billy out Black Panther for all. It was such
a lack of black characters out there. I had to
identify with Beasts from The X Man because he was
blue at least, and so someone that you can still
(11:03):
see yourself in because you cann't really see yourself in Cyclops.
You can't really even though you have Wolverine, he was dope,
you cann't see yourself in that. So at least with
Beasts being blue, you can still kind of seat a
little bit. It's not until you get Bishop coming too
the X Men two, where Bishop is just a strong,
like six foot six black guy with like wavy jet
black hair and just had a Jerry curl. He had
(11:27):
a Jerry curl. Bishop looked like he was running back
for the race. But how did that make you feel?
He ruined Ashton, like when you saw a brother that
looked like your uncle from a family barbecue in a
comic book, because I remember seeing for me it was
(11:47):
Bo Jackson, Frank Thomas, Ken, Griffith jen those were the
three black athletes that made me feel like, oh, he's
doing especially both because he's from around the corner Birmingham suburb.
So like I remember that feeling of man, I can
do this because he looks like me. Did was that
was that your character? Aaron was Jerry curl Man. Bishop
(12:08):
was that? I mean, because at that point you're really
grasping for some sort of representation. So you get that
with Bishop, Right, you have a person who's not from
the time period that the X Men are taking place,
and he's from a dystopian future and he's coming back
to right the wrongs that kind of led way to
his horrible future, you know, where he isn't happening. So
but Bishop was a little bit off his rocker, you
(12:28):
know what I mean. But it was okay because he was.
He was really cool and militaristic in a way, so
I really gravitated to that he brought. I'll start with
you on this question. Do you think that black cartoons
outside the mainstream get enough credit or get enough attention,
you know, like within the mainstream culture. How much do
(12:49):
black cartoons get their props from the mainstreams the way
that they deserve. Is the tide changing ish a little bit?
Or is it still kind of pick and choose? I
think it's picking shoes man, Like I don't know any
I mean, besides like Boondocks, obviously that that had a
real moment, right and it still does. I think it
kind of reverberates, you know, when you get people you know,
(13:11):
sort of reposting memes and things like that, and how
how it sort of lived through. But you're talking, we're
really both more so more so the TV show because
that's what everybody you know, like that's where a lot
of people found it, you know what I mean. And
so I think beyond that, man, there really hasn't been
like we've only just been sidekicks, um, you know to
(13:34):
the white characters. And I'm not you know, it's just
you know, we get a proud family every now and then.
You know, we have little blips on on the mass,
but there is it's it's here, it's out. Yeah, it's
really and it's it's good. But again, like we don't
you know, I think I feel like it's the it's
the quota situation. It happens in Hollywood all the time.
(13:56):
I mean years ago, you know when Hollywood uh found
out that you know, black was cool. Um again after
Black Panther, I mean, black was profitable. There you go black,
Yeah exactly, we can make money off these folks. Um.
You know, it was just that thing of like let's
retro fit Uh, this character who was probably a white man,
(14:16):
Let's make him black. But they don't really change anything
except for just you know, replacing the actor or the person,
not necessarily reforming the character. And I feel like that
happens in cartoons and animation all the time, where it's
just like, you know, we have to feel like, all right,
we have how many black kids we have in this group? Oh,
(14:37):
let's get a black kid in here real quick. Um,
you don't, right, I mean, have y'all seen the new
Velma TV show No, yeah, yeah, where Shaggy's black back,
don't smoke weed, you don't even get high. And I
don't even know what kind of Shaggy that is. You know,
this is not Shaggy Like. It's like when it comes
(14:58):
to like where you're talking about where they we skin
white characters for put a black face on white characters.
We need representation, but that it's it's the other side
of that. It's like, yeah, I like Shaggy. I've been
watching to Scooby Dooo. You know what's wild about that too,
is that it's one of the things I feel like
white people and black people both agree on because black
people want their own stories and white people don't want
(15:19):
to see their favorite characters, you know, dipping chocolate. Yeah,
I agree, Like, well, listen you say that, and then
you'd be like, hey, you know, Jesus, that guy might
have been you might have started off the original Spero. Yeah.
But then you even take something like say Miles Morality,
(15:42):
where you have Spider Man into the spidy Verse, right,
which was an animated film with a black Spider Man
who you know, hold spider Verse or whatever, and it
did so well. There was there was rumblings for a
quick minute, oh, I bet they should do a live
action Miles Morales, and then it was like, nah, we're
(16:04):
just gonna get out. But I feel like that that,
you know again with that, listen, Miles is one of
my favorite characters in comics. Um and you know, I
love the character, although they've never really given him to uh,
you know, a decent black writer or group of black creators,
(16:25):
which they should have. But you know, with that movie,
I think that movie worked because it was just a
good movie, right, Like they they really honed in on
making Miles feel authentic, his neighborhood feel felt authentic, his
his parents shit feels like Miles. Miles last name is Morales,
and his dad's last name. What's his dad's last name? Right, Like,
(16:48):
that's that's the real shit, you know what I mean, Like,
that's not even his daddy. My last name, my dad
last name, Lomax. They just having a rhyme. Not so.
I think I think they did a good job in
bringing in some authenticity. I think that we will start
to see more of that. But you know, again, it's
like where you know, Hollywood's motivated by the dollars and
(17:11):
as long as you know Peter Parker, like we'll get
the black miles in real time at one point. But
you know, white, white, white spider Man is uh is
still you know, very very thankful. So after the break,
I want to talk to you a little bit more. Um,
I want to talk to all of you actually about
how we can introduce new black characters, new black ip
(17:35):
into the world of comic books and eventually matriculating into
television and profitable movie franchises for you Hebrew, but also
the hurdles that you've dealt with and trying to break
through new concepts and what that world is like. This
is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back. Beyond the scenes.
(17:55):
We are back. We are talking the world of black superheroes.
And while we're you only get the same couple of
superheroes remix, even though we got a hold universe black
stories waiting in the queue to be told. One of
our guests has been creating some of these characters, now, Hebrew,
walk us through this journey, because I want to talk
(18:17):
a little bit this break just about a lot of
the existing black movie IP and how it came to
actual fruition. But I want to talk with you first
just from the ideation of drawing a character, creating the character,
creating a comic around the character. Walk us through that
journey of what that was like. Because are you writing,
(18:39):
are you creating a character like like with television like
ash And I know you know this, Like with television,
the trick is do you want to write and create
a character that you know everybody will gravitate towards that
they'll like? Are you writing what you like and then
you're making people get on board with what you're into? Well,
(19:00):
I think for me, my journey is really unique in
a way that I didn't start out trying to create
a comic or anything like that. I you know, I
come from the world of high art, right so like,
you know, paintings for galleries, museums, et cetera. And in
doing that over the years and trying to find my voice,
I kind of accidentally landed on this idea. A lot
(19:22):
of the work that I was doing early in my
career it had it had a lot of angst to it.
You know, it was very pro black or maybe a
little bit too much, you know, skewed a little too
dark or heavy handed, so to speak. And I think,
you know, within the gallery world, in that space, you
kind of have to you know, you have to walk aline.
You know, there's there's you have to be very clever
(19:43):
about how you say certain things. And so for me
it was like, you know, the advice that I got
from a lot of my my peers was like, man,
you know, you have to paint things that you know,
that you're familiar with, the things that feel like you.
And for me, growing up, you know, self professor sort
of black nerd on comics, cartoons, anime, all that shit,
(20:05):
trying to really figure out what that was. And it
wasn't until you know, a few years after college where
I had found myself in that place that we all
do where it's like, man, what's what's the next thing?
And you know, I found a book on World War Two,
just was thumbing through it and landed on the Tuskegee
Airman and with Tuskegee Airman, you know, man, it was
(20:27):
just it was like a lightning ball that hit me
because it was like, man, nobody has really touched on
these brothers from the standpoint of like like their journey
was so powerful. It struck me in this way because
the time in which they existed, the time in which
they were charged with doing certain things, our world was
a mess. I mean, it's not that different from where
(20:48):
it is now. But we're talking, we're talking World War
We're talking you know, within America, blacks you know, treated
significantly less than right. But then they're allowed and ta
to fly these planes and they do it successfully. And
these brothers are buttoned up, and you know, they are
the sort of personification of what manhood is right and
(21:09):
what heroism is. And so I found that and I
just thought about, like, man, like what if there was
like this, this, this, this, this character or these characters
that exist at that time just kind of forgot about, right,
like it happens all the time. These cartoons that fall
off the shelf and never get seen. And so I
created Flatboy, which became sort of my state boy ip,
(21:30):
but as kind of a lark like within the high
art space and just like creating this show, like presupposing
that I found this this animation project that never that
never saw the light of day, and I presented it
like that to my audience and like some found footage. Yeah,
so it was it was kind of you know, just
bringing people in that way because I felt like that
(21:50):
was the easiest way then just to say, you know, hey,
I created this thing whole claw, checked this out, um
and it people started to bite, you know, folks coming
too the show. The response was great, but it wasn't
just a response to like, you know, because there was
no narrative behind it for real, for it, like there
was no story through line or anything like that. But
(22:11):
people started graving him as a Tuskegee airman. Did you
present him as black or was he just all goggled
up and scarfed up, goggled, black faced little kid, you know,
with or without superpowers? Take it, you know, take it
with you will. But I think that people were allowed
to read into it, and I think that there was
sort of like this message behind it, of empowerment that
people really you know, they they felt. And so as
(22:35):
I started doing more and more shows, the expectation for
more and more of these paintings, you know, grew, and
people were coming to the shows looking for Flyboy. I
had people making you know, like little Halloween costumes, just
you know, cheap little aviator goggles, red red scarfs, et cetera.
And so it just grew into a thing where, you know,
it wasn't it wasn't intended to be, you know, a
(22:58):
thing that I continued on with. It was intended to
just be this moment. But as it started to grow
and my understanding of it started to grow, I started
to attach narrative to it, because you know, nobody knew
the origins or they weren't coming for that. They were
just coming for the aesthetics and the messaging behind it.
And so, you know, a few years back, I finally, uh,
(23:19):
you know, created a comic. You know, it's my first run,
and you know, like any junior, you know, novice to
a thing, I pretty much wrote myself into a corner
by issue too. I like, I like killed off one
of the main characters by issue too. And I was like,
(23:40):
oh shit, Uh so I kind of had to like
you know, wheel it back, but like let those things
exist on an island by themselves and then sort of
retool and recreate something. But again, all that to say that,
you know, it wasn't me intending to make something, uh,
to make this what it what it what it's become.
It was sort of a happy accident. But you know
(24:02):
again through that has bared you know a lot of
really really really strong fruit. Okay, so then you create
Flyboy and then you're you're eventually going to be at
a crossroads if you aren't already that a lot of
black content creators are going to be at now where
you have an idea and the tradeoff for exposure and
(24:24):
money is new cooks get to come into kitchen and
tinker with the season and on this dish that you've
perfected up until this point. How difficult is it to
try and navigate deciding on how to hold onto your
ip as things start to grow, Because when we talk
about this idea, that there's this backlog of all of
(24:46):
these black ideas and black comic strip shows that are
out there that deserve to be seen and deserved to
be made in the movies, But how much of it
is the studios and the labels and the distribution works
creating an impossible contract that you just possibly can't agree to.
And is that one of the hurdles that is keeping
(25:09):
something like say Flyboy from truly expanding to something even
greater from flying if you like, like, like, how difficult
is it to try and keep control of your eye
because you're trying to grow this shit? But then to
grow it, you got to give it to somebody that
gets to go, I do whatever I want. If we
can make flyboyd and give them a sister and Flyboy
(25:31):
and tell her, let's make them thirty four fly man, No,
I mean, you know, it's it's it's a task. But
I think for me, again, my situation is unique in
the sense that like, this isn't a comic book, right
that you're selling for five bucks? Right, These are paintings
that sell for you know, thousands of dollars. Right, you
(25:51):
got to take your price, So don't tell them your price.
But you know these are these are collectibles that I've created,
in statues that I've created that you know are now
seen all around the world. These are collectibles that you know,
go on eBay for triple the price. You know, you're
talking four or five thousand dollars for some plastic you know, figurines.
(26:15):
And with that, you know, it kind of changes my
narrative when coming into Hollywood because it's like the product
is proven, and you know, I'm only doing this on
a smaller level when it comes to you know, I'm
keeping it contained at a very limited number, but you
know it's proven. Look, these are the numbers here, and
this is just this is just me doing it. So
(26:36):
you know, if we start to bring this thing out
to the masses, you know it's going to obviously change
and you're gonna, you know, get more eyes around it,
gain more fandom around it, and you know, obviously you
know it's able to grow, the IP grows, et cetera.
But just me being able to do it on my
own is already I think a lot more than most
(26:59):
are able to kind of come in the game with.
Like most folks are coming in with the idea if
it's a if it's a book, or if it's a script.
You know, that's not as leverageable as you know, building
out a world, doing you know, exhibitions, I did an
experiential exhibition in Chicago a few years ago called Nevermore
Park where basically I created the world of Flyboy and
(27:23):
you kind of walk through in this experience, basically through
an origin story of this character, right, And you know,
we had, like, we had a couple hundred thousand visitors
to it. I bought like like fifty thousand tickets for
CPS students so they were able to kind of come through.
You know, it really expanded you know, our again our
(27:45):
fan base and in a lot of ways, and also
show them sort of another side because they're only familiar
with the paintings. And you know, again, having had all
of that gives me a little bit more leveraged in
those conversations with different studios, Aston Aaron, why don't studios
(28:06):
accept the fact that black superhero hit movies are not
an anomaly? It irks me that the first Iron Man
is credited with being the beginning of the Marvel surives.
It irks me when we all know the truth, yeah,
(28:29):
is that it was Blade. We do we do now?
They didn't connect Blade to none of the other ship
and maybe that's why they try not to write it off.
Blade had a budget of about forty forty five million,
if I'm not mistaken, grossed about a hundred. It made
about a hundred. Didn't know it did one thirty It
did by one thirty one forty it made it made
(28:50):
its money back, and then another hundred million. Yeah, a sequel, right,
two sequels, Yeah, it got it got sequels and a
TV series which spike cancer because they said they couldn't
afford the special effects. That's a true story. So why
don't these films like why what? Like, let's just talk
about the erasure of Blade? Yeah, is there do you
(29:12):
think do you even agree with that point? Aaron? Let's
just start there, think, I mean, we can go a
step further, just talk about the erasure of Wesley Snipes.
But I think, well, he would have paid his taxes.
I mean, well, you know him and Ryan Reynolds didn't
get along trying to play Wesley as a diva. But
(29:33):
the thing about that story, yeah, it was a lot
of It was a lot of commotion apparently with that
Blade Trinity production. But we have to take it back
to the nineteen nineties and understand that before Blade the film,
there isn't a successful Marvel film adaptation at that point
you have the Captain America film, which is from the
nineteen nineties, which is it's not what we have with
Chris Evans now, and then Lundering Punisher, failed Dolphin under Punisher,
(29:58):
cult classic but not a hit by any means. And
then you have this buried Roger Corman Fantastic four film
that wasn't even released to the general public and you
can only find copies of it at Comic Con. And
so Marvel was doing this thing of licensing out their characters,
not building an overall universe, but lightning them out to
twentieth Century Fox, lightning them out to Colombian Pictures, Sony,
(30:21):
and just seeing what it got. It wasn't as much
of a creative powerhouse in the film game as it
is today. And so you get this film called Blade,
which is rated R, which is bloody violet, vampire flick,
action flick, and it literally it becomes a hit. It
becomes a hit because of the performance of Blaye, because
of this representation of this black superhero. But it also
(30:42):
creates a door for us to get X Men in
two thousand, for us to get Spider Man in two
thousand and two, and all the various films that come
and kind of give us modern contemporary visual adaptations of
superheroes on film. And so I just think it's just
one of those things where people don't want to get
black character and black actors and performers the credit in
its old fashioned racism. They're trying to you know, qualify
(31:05):
with different metrics and whatnot. But Blade was a hit
to generate two more films in the film in this
series adaptation, but again they want something more. Um, But
did they go was some of the mother black characters
we got the fat Like why didn't Marvel go digging
the crates? Yeah, because a lot of those characters are
whack as hell? Why? Yeah, well he black panther. Think
(31:31):
about like the one of the hurdles had to overcome
a black panther was Umbaku's character. He was just a
racist gorilla in the comic books. He was just straight
up a gorilla, like a monkey that was his power
monkey man or or something like that. And they had
to like actually content like make him a modern character
for today and get rid of the racist trope that
he was. So I'm sure they go and look through
(31:53):
their their their a list of black characters and half
of them are just stereotypes, even with Black Panther. Black Panther,
you know, was a character that was created by Jack Kirby.
Rest in peace. Jack Kirby one of the greatest comic
book creators of all time. But you know, Jack Kirby's
not a brother and I'm pretty sure, like I don't
I don't think Jack had many brothers on his roller decks. Like,
(32:15):
hey man, I'm bringing this character called the Black Panther
and let me get these notes of all. Also, can
I just can I just shout this out. This is
a very very problem moment in my life of nerd them.
But my my paintings and my figures were in Wakanda
forever hard. That's hard, and shout out for that. It
(32:37):
was like the biggest nerve moment. You know. It was
all quiet in the theater and I saw my ship
and I just let its fire. You'd be like, Joe,
this movie the greatest movie in the world. I don't know,
I love this movie. Then let's let's stay on that
d to it for a second. Then how do you
get that call? Do you get a call from like
secret number unknown and hello, he is it? Samuel L.
(33:00):
Jackson with an eye passing shield. You get an how
you do this? Ryan, it has to be Nate Moore,
somebody maybe. Yeah, I know I know Ryan through through
Mike right, So I got I got a chance to
hang out on the first Black Panther set Michael B Jordan. Yeah,
mid that was wild. Sorry, I was like, Michael Jordan,
(33:25):
you know Michael Jordan's I was like, do I know Mike.
It's somebody, I'm Mike. We all know, oh man, oh
of b Jordan's fame, Okay, of b Jordan's um, And
so you know, I was able to kind of go
you know that route. But again the space that I
kind of moved maneuver in in terms of like, you know,
(33:48):
black visual artists, you know, on the on the painting
and sculpting side, and again playing multiple way multiple has.
I'm one of few, so I think that, you know,
that kind of helps me maneuver and get to get
to know these folks. And um. I saw Ryan Kogler
in Atlanta when he first was coming back to start
(34:08):
Black Panther too. We ran into each other at the
hotel and I was like, I was messing with it.
I was like trying to juice him for you know,
some uh, some some gossip. I needed to know what
was what was going to happen, some script story, give
me something. Of course he didn't give me shit, but
it was cool. But I think that, like I would
like to think that, you know, as Ryan is sculpting
this and this is so you know, Black Panther is
(34:29):
so cultural, right, It's not just about Wakanda, but like
when you look at even Wakanda Forever, like there's lines
about fenty Beauty in there, there's you know, it's it's
black culture. It's not just this fake African culture. And
so I think that, you know, they do such a
good job of being fully immersive and aware of what's
going on, you know, outside in this world that they
(34:52):
bring into this Marvel world to make it feel real
for us. And I think that you know, the character
re re from Chicago me being sort of you know,
Chicago's you know, you know some of my characters sort
of being the mascots in certain instances. For Chicago, I
think that it was just, you know, it's one of
those things that just really worked. And I'll be honest
(35:12):
with you, and this is gonna sound like reflects, but
you know it takes so long to make these movies
that I forgot they even asked because it was like
four years ago. Yeah, oh my god, that's true. So
you know, it was like when I watched the movie,
You're in the movie, and then I see my shit
on her desk in the workshop, and then I see
my shit in the wall. In a way, I'm like,
(35:32):
oh my god, me and you're different. You show me
something I did four years ago. I'm like, I'm gonna
need that. I'm gonna need a cease and desist. I
need that taken down. I need all that. After the break,
I want to bring it home and talk about how
we can expand black storytelling, you know, not only in
comic books, but as it gets into television and what
(35:54):
it is. What do you think could happen and what
you think probably won't happen. I gotta question for all
three after the break, this is beyond the scenes. Beyond
the scenes. This has been a wonderful, wonderful conversation about
black comic books and black superheroes. And you know, whether
(36:14):
we can get a couple more on the screen that
aren't remixed versions of old nineteen forty two stereotype I'm
gonna write me a black super You're gonna be called
jive Turkey, and every time he kills somebody, he goes
your dig. I like that. You tell me, I bet
you that shit get green lit. By what I'm saying now,
I'll never be able to go back home to Birmingham again.
(36:37):
Hero No, I can't go to Essence fast after you,
you dig. I got another idea. It's like Teen Titans
but called the Young Bloods. Okay, how honest can the
black experience be infused into Black supper heroo narratives? Do
(37:01):
you think there's still space for expansion, Ashton? I mean not,
I think there. I know there's space for expansion. Really
get made, though, I mean it's up to us. We gotta.
I mean it's up to us. We can't let white
media or American media control the stories that we tell.
I feel like one of my inspirations is Tony Morrison.
(37:22):
I'm pretty sure she was like, I tell stories, I
don't exclude black people. I mean i'll exclude white people.
I tell stories from a black experience and therefore black people.
That's the kind of superhero story. I want to see
a story that's truly all around made for black people.
It involves every aspect of black culture, and it does
not have to capitulate to modern mainstream America modern society
(37:45):
have to like do Why is it always black stories
that have to do reach across the aisle so everybody
else can feel seen and accept it. We ain't never
been nobody reached across side for us. Why can't I talk?
It revolves around the dollar I think for me being
able to spend a little time in you know, Hollywood
and having all these conversations right like, you know, studios
(38:08):
are I mean, you know these cats, they're not original,
and it's the dollars the bottom line. So I'm going
to reach back in the catalog of things that we've
done already that people are familiar with because once upon
a time it lived, and we're gonna redo that to death.
And then we ain't got nothing else, right, Hopefully we
have our our our Ryan Coogler's or our you know,
(38:31):
our Jordan Peels. Those are the only brothers that are
would be allowed to introduce something new at this moment,
right like, with a little bit of radicalness to it. Yes,
approved state a maybe maybe, I think so, I mean,
(38:52):
but yeah, and Yeah, not to exclude Aba at all.
I think she's absolutely one of those ones. But you know,
it's gonna take someone of that ilk to get that
thing across. I think, like you look at the time
in the nineties you talked about somebody mentioned, you know,
meteor Man, right, like Medior Man doesn't get made even
(39:13):
as a comedy if Robert Townsend doesn't have all that
good will that he's built up right in those relationships. Yeah,
those relationships that he's built with all these phenomenal black
comedians and talent where he can get you know, get
(39:33):
those folks in at a price, so he can make
his movie at a price. Right, And again, it still
kind of had to be you know, it's not to
down media Man, because I love Media Man, but it
had to be a comedy, right, It had to be
a comedy. And it definitely plays on those nineties tropes
of like the Bad Neighborhood and the game gold Laws,
(39:53):
right give me. And unfortunately the thing about Meteor Man,
it was a box office flops, right, And so when
that happens, Robert Townsend goes into Hollywood jail, can't direct
for a little bit, or has to go make the
Parenthood on television, which is a great series as well.
(40:14):
But so you don't really get that meteor Man too.
And so, you know, and I think we kind of
overlooked the importance of Black Panther being that it was
Marvel's I think it was Marvel's either eighteenth or nineteen
film at that point, and it was the first ever
Marvel film to be nominated for Best Picture. And so
just Marvel gross to everything that came before, you know,
(40:36):
and again that's a that's a one part in a
series of these episodic films that people were just Okay,
we're doing this film to get to the next point.
But Black Panther was a cultural moment. It was a phenomena.
It was a phenomenon really, and then Marvel was like, hey, yeah, hey, yeah,
look at that. Look at what we did. And so
it's kind of like, you know, you get those hits,
but to try to get to that level and to
(40:57):
maintain that, I feel there's way more pressure on Black
There's way more of a see we told you that
it wouldn't sail, and then that opportunity gets yanked away
when so many other folks in Hollywood can take swings
and miss but still be able to make other films.
And so I think the playing field for us is
very limited, and so you got to either get up
and hit a home run or you might not get
(41:17):
that chance. Honestly. One of those challenges, though, Aaron, to
what you're saying, even when you're talking about media, man,
is that you know we haven't we as as as
black folks and folks of color, Brian Large, haven't been
taught or haven't been welcomed into the conversation of science fiction. Yeah, right,
And so you know, if this hero is playing in
(41:41):
theaters one through nine and Tyler Perry is playing in
theater ten, listen, I mean seriously, like I'm off the
streets with my lady. I'm going on a date. I'm
not speaking just with myself, but but I'm gonna goal
with Tyler Perry. That's a brand name for me, and
it's something relatable, right, And I think that you know
(42:01):
the fact that categorically we have not been put into
science fiction films in that narrative forever, like we had,
we'd always be one of us, right, Like you know,
Billy dee Wis is the only nigga in space for
how right? He finally let LaVar burden in space. He
was blind right, he had shout out in front of
(42:26):
the show. So to the creators, to the black content
creators and writers that are listening to us, he real,
how do you allow your work to be the truest
version of yourself? Like you have a coffee table book
that you've just put together. That's a good sale at all? Oh,
(42:47):
I can already care from the cover of that book,
asking that's one of the books you put on the
table and press went present. Yea, it could be the
only It could be the only thing on the table too,
next to a blade candle. I don't know nothing about handles.
As you look back at all of the work that
you've done enough to put into a book, which is
already a crazy accomplishment to think about that you've done
(43:09):
enough that you went you know what, And I know
that's not even everything you're done, that's just the hits.
How did you allow your art to be the truest
version of yourself and not be influenced by what they
might buy or what could How did you stay true
to what you wanted to do versus what you thought
(43:30):
people wanted to see. I think my artists sort of
always been a bit of like my own diary, right,
My art always reflects where I'm at, you know, emotionally, mentally,
and so I think that, like, you know, with art,
starting out there was not really a big risk. You know,
you just do a thing. I'm working. I got two
(43:51):
other jobs over here, making you know, horrible money, being
a horrible employee. But it wasn't a risk to just
make some shit at night and stay up all night
and create some stuff. So I think that like starting
out from an honest place of just like I just
need to express myself, you know, it's it's it's an
easier upstart than you know, I didn't have to start
(44:13):
out and from a place of like, I have to
make things in order to pay the bills to survive,
so I have to work according to everybody else's sort
of level or expectation of what is good and what's cool.
The thing that stuck with me a long time ago
was most death said, I just always wanted to grow
(44:34):
up and make cool shit. And it's a very simple statement,
but that's sort of how I lived in that sense
of like, if I can always be honest with myself
in my work. I'll be okay no matter what other
work I have to do, Like, I have my outlet,
and my outlet has now become my career and my occupation. So,
(44:54):
you know, just one of those things that really kind
of worked out. I'm lucky how And I'll end with
the question to all of you. And now we've already
kind of talked about whether or not we think that
there will be more black superhero stories. I think that
there will. I think, you know, whether or not they
will be able to touch on all of the different
intricacies that is the Black experience across the diaspora. You know,
(45:19):
that's depending on the producer and the level of trust
the studio has in that director. Blah blah blah. But
once these fucking shows are on the air, do you
think they'll give him time to find an audience? Bad? Damn.
So there was a great show on c W calling
The Yummy. It was about a black girl teenager an
early team. Yeah. Correct. And then Michael B. Jordan your
(45:44):
excuse me, Mike he Ep the show on Netflix Raising,
which was about a young single mom raising a black
boy with superpoles and how you navigate single mother, single
parents with the superpower like being able to turn the
genre on its head a little bit. But neither one
of those shows. Naomi got a season. I think Raising
(46:05):
de Young got two from Netflix if I'm not mistaken.
So how do we get these places to steal just
give shows time to find their audience or is that
just strictly money and we're screwed. I think that's just
the old days, man. This is this is all of
the numbers game, you know, financial and and you know viewership.
(46:28):
I think it's just there's so many people buying for
those spots and those slots, and you know, the turnaround
is just a lot faster these days where it's not network,
so they don't have to invest so much time and
energy into a you know, look at seinfeld Man. How
many how many seasons did it take for seinfeld to
actually pick up two? Maybe three? Right? He would have
(46:50):
been canceled. He That's my fear for the story of
the black superhero. It is that even if these stories
and the diverseness and the disc and the difference of
all of the types of stories you want to tell,
even if all that gets greenlet once you're out there
and you're on the playing field, are you going to
get the support, Are you going to get the advertising? No,
(47:12):
are you gonna be given the runway? You need to
actually find it here, Like if the CW won't give
you a chance and nobody black Lightning and you're going
to be And that's it is, like get out of here.
Even we gotta put on another season of Flash. We
just gotta, we gotta leverage our white allies privilege. Taylor Swift,
(47:32):
if you listen to this, I know what you did
for Ticketmaster, do that for season three. But I think
you speak to a really important point of like there's
a pressure for the artists um to create that will
have a long lasting effect and have success. And that's
a hard place to come from from an artist like
he mentioned, he you know, just created, you know what
(47:55):
I mean, He was free to create. He wasn't caring
about if this character I p that he created it
would one day you know, you know, connect with a
large He was just doing him. And so I think
more initiatives and programs for up and coming black voices
and artists, like the Milestone Initiative for Black Creative for
Milestone Comics, and I mean we've already went so much
(48:15):
time without even bringing up Milestone Comics, which is basically, yeah,
like formed by black creators with black characters, more of
an authentic voice. And so they actually developed not too
long ago a pipeline program for aspiring black creatives who
want to you know, create comic book heroes and superheroes
and play in that world. And so again, like no
(48:38):
one can forecast the future, especially when it comes to
media in particular, but what we can do is just develop,
you know, opportunities to identify in spotlight some of those
up and coming voices who can give us the next
Static Shock, who can give us the next you know,
Icon or you know Rocket, someone like that, who were
featured in Milestone Comics that gave nuanced portrals of blackness
(49:00):
in comic books, right like, they gave us not just
this binary approach to life for black people, but so
much more of it. Gave us that world building aspect
that you find a lot with Hebrew's character Flyboy. You know,
it's not just one character, it's a whole world of
experiences that we're looking to build. And so if we
can develop more programs like that and identify more up
(49:20):
and coming voices, I think that's a that's a start,
but like you said, who knows when it comes to
television and film. I mean, the bottom line is the dollar,
and so we're always going to be fighting that. Well.
I think that's it's good a place to end. And also,
see Debbie, I forgot that you gave us a lot
of seasons of black lightning. I'm sorry for raising my
voice with that decide. Thank you so much, Ashton Hebrew,
(49:47):
much respect to you. We look forward to seeing your
work and Black Panther Part three, and I have my
lawyers reach out to you. Some of you work in
my movie Jib Turkey. Let's go he who might have
a proof of concept? Right now, I'm trying to you know,
I'm trying to write myself in as a sidekick, so
(50:09):
your blood could be a team of people or one person.
I'll be here. And where can we get the book?
He Brew? Where can people order the book? Your local bookstore,
preferably you know people, they still they still exist, folks,
please patronize you know, mom and pop bookshops. But other
than that, the bald white Man spot mister bezos uh
(50:30):
can go to Amazon and pick one up right there,
delivered right to you. You know, there's so many weird
names of businesses in New York that I thought that
was a real business. I had to say that. All right,
oh man, it's a great discussion. That's all the time
we have for today. Thank you all so much for
going beyond the scenes with us. Give me some theme music.
(50:55):
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