The Queer History of Drag & Conservative Backlash

Conservatives are outraged by kids’ exposure to drag shows and there’s been an increase in protests at drag events. But drag dates all the way back to ancient societies and Shakespearean theater. Host Roy Wood Jr. chats with the star of HBO’s We’re Here, Bob the Drag Queen, Princeton journalism professor,  Channing Joseph, and author of the book, Drag: Combing Through The Big Wigs of Show Business, Frank DeCaro. They chat about Black and Queer trailblazers, the legacy of drag activism, and how representation from shows like Rupaul’s Drag Race has helped make drag more mainstream and builds allyship among its viewers. Bob also talks about his personal journey growing up in the south and the challenges he faced filming season 3 of We’re Here. Bob even gives Roy a drag queen name.   Watch the original segments:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T6ZKlOPAmU  See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:06):
Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes. The podcast. It goes
deeper into segments and topics that originally aired on the
Daily Show. This is what you gotta think of this
podcast is if the Daily Show is tomato soup, then
this podcast is all the topics you add to make
the soup even more warm and delicious. With the croutons
and the crackers and the grilled cheese you eat with

(00:27):
the tomato soup. See, now you're all cozy and you've
got the perfect ratio of liquid and carbs. That's what
this podcast is. I'm Roy with Jr. Today We're crackers,
Ran Queen. Were we weat crackers? Can we be whole? Green?
Let me let me be? Let me be a uh
one of the rye. What's the dark bread? Let me

(00:53):
let me be Let me be a pumper nickel cracker aside,
it might be a pupper nickel. That is the voice
of our guests, Bob the Drag Queen and I'm Roy
with JR. Today. We're talking about a segment on the show,
but corresponding Dulce Sloan when she talked about the history
of drag and the rising protests and threats directed at
drag events and the number of bills introduced by Republican

(01:15):
lawmakers seeking to prevent children from attending drag shows. Let's
get a quick clip. Hello friends. If you know me,
you know that I love me some drag. It's like sports,
but for people who don't want to deal with any balls,
if you know what I mean. But recently conservatives aff
but acting like dragon, some brand new thing that liberals
dreamed up to tie your kids in a glitter devil. Now,

(01:40):
while eighteenth century England gave us drag queens, nineteenth century
America gave us drag balls. It's the only time queens
colonized the country and made it better. One of the
most famous drag performers at that time was a former
enslaved African named William Dorsey, the Queen's Swan. Dorsey slaved
so hard he went on to become a pioneer of
modern ballroom culture. America's drag balls brought the culture to

(02:03):
the next level and Harlem. They became so popular that
men and women would come from all over to present
their looks to a panel of judges pageant style. And
you know, there's something comforting and knowing that even hundreds
of years ago, people were telling someone to their face
that they were a messy bitch whose outfit is drash
the circle of life. Later on in the show, I'll

(02:24):
be joined by some additional guests who are gonna help
me dive into the history of drag. But first, my
fellow Papa Nickel is on the microphone with me today.
Please RuPaul's Drag Race Season eight winner, hosted the podcast
Sibling Rivalry and star of HBO's We're Here, which just

(02:47):
launched his third season. Bobby Drag Queen, Welcome to Beyond
the Scenes. How do you do? I'm well, thank you
so much for for asking, thank you for having me
and um and I'm really proud to know you know
yet we have our our third season if We're Here,
our Emmy Award winning television show, We're Here. I'm very,
very proud of it. What I appreciate about that television
program is that you don't just tell the story of

(03:10):
this world strictly from liberal enclaves, as they like to say.
I flipped past one day and y'all was in Jackson, Mississippi.
I got, oh my God, pulling up in the South South.
That's the south side there's cheese grid South. Yeah, in
places where they call what they call what they call
it Mississippi. We was in Mississippi, honey, and Mississippi just

(03:33):
like a drag queen on it. What would a Mississippi Missippi?
If you could as as layman as you can for
our listeners who don't know, explain exactly what drag is.
This is how I defined drag. Drag is blurring the
gender line while creating art. Not all drag queens do numbers.
Not all drag queens dance, not all drag queens seen.

(03:54):
Some drag queens do comedy. I know a drag queen
in Linda Simpson who takes photographs. You know what I mean?
Like if you people who there are people do dragging.
Their whole thing is just going to the club and
just being pretty and sitting there and hanging out and partying.
There are people who go up there and they do
I'm I'm gonna stand up comedian, so you know when
I do it, me Bianca da Rio, Um we do
uh stand up comedy, when we do a Flame Monroe comedy,

(04:16):
when when we do our drags and some drag artists, um,
you know are are are women, and some are men,
and some are binaries. Some are says women, some are
trans women, um summer says men, summer trans men, summer
gay men. There are some straight men out there doing drag.
I love everyone. Actually, I don't know that they never

(04:36):
heard of a straight drag queen while watching all the
Tyler Perry movies. I'm like, okay, sure, sure you never
heard a straight drag queen. Okay, got it. Let's let's
go back to the beginning for you, just in terms
of your introduction into the world of drag, Like what
were some of your experiences like early on, like early
and take me back, Bob drag queen one point. Oh what,
you wouldn't even drag queen. You just Bob potenially drag

(04:58):
queen to be so when I was young, When I
was young, my mom used to actually own a drag bar.
My mom on a drag bar and Columbus Georgia called Sensations.
If you are a gen xer or a boomer who
was gay in the Columbus Georgia area and the nineties,
you probably went to Sensations and you probably went to
my mom's drag club. And that's where I first heard

(05:20):
of and and you know encountered, uh, the species known
as drag queens. When you first started drifting into the
world of drag yourself, did you have representation, did you
have role models? Were there other examples? Were you navigating
this world on your own and a complete folk? So

(05:40):
when I started drag, it was two thousand, eight thousand nine, UM,
and I was in New York City. I was twenty
three years old, and you know, I was really kind
of just basing it off of what I see because
RuPauls dragsly just started on TV and I knew drag
from RuPaul and Hung Foo and Pursiloquent of the Desert
and you know movies like that Ruby Ruby hart Is.

(06:01):
It was the Being Rams movie, Oh, Holiday Heart, Holiday Heart,
Holiday Heart. UM. But then by this time it was
something called repost drag race. It was less characters of
drag and more like actual drag queens. And I thought
it was just so interested. I was like so impressed.
So then I went out and I got myself some makeup,
and I went to the local club in my UM
called Lavish Lounge. He used to be in. Queens also

(06:21):
doesn't exist. As we keep talking, most of the clubs
I'm gonna mention, especially after the pandemic, a lot of
them just don't exist anymore. So they're only in the
minds of of people who were in these spaces. But
it was lavish lounge in the story of queens, and
I remember going and seeing these queens and meeting I
remember the queen I met for the first time. Her
name was blacky Oh was her name? Shout out to Blackyoo,
I think is still working in these streets, like Jackie o' nassis.

(06:45):
Her name was her name with her name was Blackie o' nasty.
It was her name actually, And I started going out,
So it was a little bit of like what I
saw on the internet. You know, there was no Instagram.
Instagram hadn't even it hadn't even been an Instagram yet.
There was no Instagram, there was no There was those
Facebook and the clubs and I would go to and
what I saw in proposed drag race um, so I

(07:07):
was there was. There was definitely some representation, but it
was it was not as easy to find it today,
like it's so easy to find drag queens today. You
can't throw a rock without hitting a hitting a wig.
You know, you come from the South, you come from Columbus,
Georgia all the way up to New York. How much
of a culture shift was that? Was it welcome? Because

(07:29):
because like growing up in the South, like how did
how did the South shape your views on gender roles?
And like this drag hilled blurred gender lines and challenge
strict gender norms, like like talk to me a little
bit about the empowerment of it versus where you were,
what it was thought of where you were versus where
you went as a twenty two year old, it was
way more open. So when I was a kid and

(07:50):
I grew up in the South, so I did get
a lot of gender roles in gender normal place on
me what it means to be a man. A lot
of my raising is that, is that a focus on
what it meant to be an adult. I was often
told what it meant to be a man, like as
if there was this really specific, unique set of rules
that men had to follow that women didn't have to follow,
and vice versa. Women have to do this and men

(08:12):
can't do that. And I've I kept bucking against it.
I never wanted to go by those rules. I wanted
I always wanted to like go against that and do
something slightly different and and challenge And it wasn't It
wasn't just like I want. It was just like I
just didn't feel comfortable with the idea that I had
to do certain things just because of what's between my
legs and and what I was born with. So now

(08:34):
it's like, so now I literally have to do this,
you know what I mean? And as a black man,
I already have that societal expectation on me. You know,
as a black person, you have to act a certain way,
you can't do certain things. I was also giving a
lot of respectability of politics as a young black person.
You know, a lot of us were taught like you
can't act certain ways in front of white people. Um.
That was like ingrained in me. So when I got
to New York City, I was able to release all

(08:55):
of that and um and just do what felt comfortable
to me. I guess the cool thing about at it
is when you're in New York, you're amongst your peers,
and you have this degree, you have a support network
if nothing else. Talk just a little bit about that
part of it, Like, because it is not it's not

(09:15):
necessarily always the safest occupation. If we're just gonna be
one hundred about it, talk to me a little bit
about first learning that part of the game, and you know,
who were the people or just how was the ecosystem
in New York at the time that you were coming
up to start developing those types of you know, protections.
So when I started going out to the clubs, I
met just some of the like I mean talk about

(09:37):
like walking into a bar or a club or a
place in general and meeting people You're like, wow, these
are really my people. Like I actually found my people,
you know, started doing drag with Peppermint, Frosty, all these
names are gonna sound so funny to you all, but
to me, they're like, oh, friends, Peppermint, Frosty, Flossy Frosty, Flags, Honey, Lebronx,

(09:58):
Race Scandalo D la Vetica, Um Blacky O, Nasty Chandelier,
Um Shaquita. These are all the people that I, you know,
Pixie Legendary, keep going. These are all the people that
I was doing drag with, and and and and and
well even had like networks to help each other get

(10:20):
to our gigs on time and safely. You know, there
will be times where. You know, taking a car in
New York City is very expensive. This is even before
Uber's first of all, getting a uber, getting a car
as a drag queen sometimes it's impossible as a black
drag queen, forget about it. Then they're never gonna stop
for you, so you have to take the train down.
So if I live in the Heights, I'll stop by
Harlem on the way to pick up my friend Keijia

(10:40):
Car because kej Car doesn't want to ride the train
by herself either, So I stop off at keja Cars stop,
I grab Keija and we go down. Then we stop
at you know, maybe Frosty stopped to grab her so
we can get to the bar and Chelsea safely. So
we're all like in a group together and not traveling alone.
And you have to factor that into your travel time
on a regular bay arasists because of oh yeah, for sure,

(11:03):
for sure. I mean the Uber really changed the game
because we're just called cars. And if you if you
had a good night, remain money, if you didn't have
a lot of if you didn't make any money the night,
you're you can't afford the Uber and you have to
take the train home anyway. But ye, traveling, traveling in
large groups is very It was. It was a great
way to keep safe. Going back to that this idea
that just to live your life, you all had to

(11:25):
literally schedule what times you congregated on the train so
you could travel in numbers. Talk talk a little bit
about drags history and activism and speaking out on a
lot of the bullshit that's out there in the industry.
How have you been able to use drag as a
vehicle for political activism as well? Early in my drag
I was doing a lot of political political activism. I

(11:46):
started a group called Drag Queen Weddings for Equality with
my friends. We would go to Times Square and we
would do these uh, these weddings, these wedding demonstrations where
to drag queen would get married by a drag queen
pastor and um we would hand out wedding and by
rights uh and the wedding in fights would have all
this information on the back about injustices to the queer community.
And then we would do these these demonstrations where we

(12:08):
gonna shut out more things and give people calls to
action and how they can you know who they can call,
who they can talk to how they can make a change.
There was also some some early arrest in my um,
in my drag career, getting getting arrested in full drag
from activism. I was one of those, one of those
activists you know, and and and and that's certainly did
not start with me. I mean if even even back

(12:28):
to the Compton Cafeteria riots, you know, drag queens, drag artists,
gender benders, um have been bucking against the system to
create change for people, not just for gay men, but
for and not just for queer people, but for black people,
for reproductive rights, uh, immigration rights, even environmental right, mean,

(12:50):
I know queens where her you know, saving the wells,
you know, like drag queens. If there is, if there
is a somewhere to put our nose in something, we
will put our contour nose in your business, Sney. After
the break, I want to talk a little bit more
about how the added television exposure about the world of
drag um, what the pros and cons are from shows
like RuPaul's Drag Grace and your show. We're here. This

(13:12):
is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back, Bob. I
want to ask you about the television shows that have
stepped into the mainstream. Now you know, you have a
show like RuPaul's Drag Race, which I'll say this and
this is and I and I speak as an alum
of Last Comic Standing third place two thousand ten, checked

(13:34):
the check the Wikipedia. I feel like adding a competition
element to anything makes people more likely to watch it.
It makes people more open to immersing themselves in worlds
that they don't necessarily care about, simply because you're seeing
people who are trying to be the best at it.
So like I feel like RuPaul's Drag Race nailed that
coming off the heels of Top Model essentially, which I

(13:56):
feel like it's kind of a precursor. I'm not gonna
say that the two are necessary connected, but there is.
RuPaul has acknowledged that Drag Race is inspired in part
by Top Model, and I think you're absolutely right. I mean,
like even so, like Nowaday, you would never watch someone
poorly pick a cake, but when you put when they're
competing and you have someone hilarious like the call by
or doing, it's like, Yeah, I'm wanna watch people funk

(14:17):
up cakes. I would love love to see that. Also,
I want to quickly say to you reminded me, beyond
the scenes is a great drag name beyonda Oh miss
beyond the scenes, I love her, honey, give it. It's
beyond the scenes, yonda and then lift up the lift
up the back skirt of some ship beyond the scenes.

(14:38):
But no a show like RuPaul's Drag Race or even
We're Here, Like, I feel like they've all helped pushed
drag into the mainstream, and you showcase a different lens
of quick like We're Here is different from drag Racing
that it's about the nuance, it's about the emotion, and
these are reality shows and we haven't even gotten it
to script of stuff like pose or like It's like,
what what do you think that those shows helped do

(15:01):
to change the perception of queerness in America? So you
know the drag Race fan base, you think it's just
a bunch of gay people watching drag Race, but it's
actually not all gay people. A lot of straight people
watch drag Race. And then what it ends up happening
and you have a lot of allies watching drag Race,
and drag Race been on the air for a six
fifteen seasons, sixteen seasons now, um, so what happens is

(15:23):
these kids who are watching drag Race and they were young,
are now allies adults who have children, you know what
I mean, They're now full on adults who have children
who will also be allies. It's not what I told
one of my friends. One of my friends, just like
a white uh content creator, was like, who couldn't understand
why what was was so important to say black lives matter
as a white person, Like why is so important? Like
why why can't I just do my thing and not

(15:44):
say this. I was like, you don't have to say it,
lets you don't have it, but I will say this
if you do say it. Once you say black lives matter,
because because you matter to so many little white girls,
because you matter to them, then they hear you say
black lives matter. Now black lives matter to them. Now
we have a black Lives matter supporter in the house
of a Karen or a cop who might end up
hurting a black person or doing something like that. So

(16:05):
you're basically just spreading the word, you know what I mean?
And I think that um and I think that's the
situation that we're in right in right now. That's how
drag race has changed the world. Of understanding queer people.
In my opinion, it's also shows like Pose for the
Straight Guy with Paul's drag Race, legendary Um Transformation. There's

(16:26):
so many shows like this that put queer people in
front of people who are potential allies and let them
see that we're not out in these streets doing something
and the weird and nefarious stuff that they think we're
trying to do. We're just living our lives. That people
took it because didn't get turned into one of them.
In the male you know, I would tell folks I

(16:48):
was straight, and then I took the vaccine and now
look at me, and then I and then I got
a booster. Now I'm non binary. So watch out for
that fazer. It'll get you good. Like an intersection of
anti vax in homophobia. I'm not even sure if I
was supposed to laugh. Am I allowed to laugh? You sure?

(17:08):
I'm gonna laugh later? You you didn't get me a camera.
So that's the positive benefits of the show. Let's flip
it to the negative side, because you know, a lot
of groups, a lot of organizations try to use shows
to springboard and justify their hatred and has the exposure
from these shows also opened it up more to hatred

(17:32):
and discrimination for viewers, you know, like I know, like
like just talk to me about we're here, Like what's
that like just being out on set shooting? Because if
I am a daily show correspondent at something where like
I was at a pro gun rally and they was
not fucking with your boy, I can't imagine. I can imagine.

(17:53):
So what's that like when you're out in places like Jackson, Mississippi,
in full drag with cameras, Like what type of pushback
if you face with this show? I think the really
what people don't appreciate appreciate is um, the reason why
Jordan Clipper can go into these spaces is because they
don't know that he is not one of them until

(18:18):
he exposes himself. But when you but you know, but
when Roy walks into this boys, when Roy, they were like,
we now we know, we know you ain't one of us.
You have a camera a camera and you black. No,
absolutely not. But they'll go up to Jordan Clapper because
he's white and he's tall and and and and and

(18:39):
you know, and you women love its tall white man.
They will go that. They'll go and tell them their
whole life story. Do they realize that he's and he's
before and I'm happy go do that ship Clipper. We
happily every time they haven't meet me, like we think
Clippers should go go do that one. Whenever I'm on
the streets, like I just had an instance in Jackson, Mississippi,
that is on the second episode of season three, if

(19:01):
we're here where I'm I'm just I'm just walking down
the street like I'm I'm not even in drag, I'm
just walking on the street looking and then all of
a sudden, they're like, oh there, well there's one of them.
They're queers. So they started yelling at me from across
the street just for walking around, like they're throwing completely
Biggs ex accusations at me. Um and they do this

(19:23):
sounds like a loane. This sounds like because it doesn't
sound like these are just one or two syllable slurs.
You're saying. It was spitting whole phrases. Well, no, they
were saying stuff like that. They didn't call me a
fagot per se. But what they did do they they
called me a a They called me a pedophile, they
called me a pervert, they called me a creep all.
By the way, all I was doing was just standing

(19:43):
on the street corner. I mean I was holding a
purse something. I was gay, but I was just standing
on the street corner holding a purse. And from that,
from that, from seeing that, they ascertained they came to
the clues that I was a pedophile, a pervert, I
was up to no good. I wanted their kids. And
I was like, I'm literally just on the show. I
was actually at the time, I was we had just
finished filming and they haven't put the cameras down yet

(20:05):
because they always just linger around a little bit. I
was like, I'm gonna get my ice cream on the streep.
I want to get ice cream. I was literally just
looking for ice cream. And then I got like, you know,
verbally assaulted by these by these guys. So I go
up and I was like, I'm gonna talk to them.
I'm gonna actually give you guys. I'm gonna talk and
see what's going on. And of course they didn't want
to do They didn't really want to talk. They just
wanted to us sling their bit rall at me um
and call me names. But but I was interest was

(20:27):
maybe like two or three of them. But the interesting
about them and they actually weren't It's not like they
were being being supported. Even in Jackson. Even the folks
in Jackson were like, can you what what is wrong
with y'all? Like we're not They're like everybody and Jackson
ain't doing this. This is them what good country folk? Like? Yeah,
like this has it gotten beyond that? Has it been

(20:50):
any like type of death threats or threats of violence
we have had we haven't had. We've had threats of
violence for sure on our show, and luckily we do
have security detail everywhere we go. You'll find out an
episode one, we were going to have a reading of
this book Channgel and my dragson is gonna read some
books of these kids. And then they decided that they
didn't want that to happen, so they called and threatened

(21:11):
to h They didn't threaten to shoot the place up,
and they said, if you allow this to happen, and
we will show up and we carry and we'll cause
a scene. So it was like kind of like veiled
like that. They were like, we're not saying, we're not
saying we're gonna kill you, but we're saying that we
have guns, we carry and we'll be there. So basically
they threatened to do what actually happened for real in Columbus, Ohio,

(21:33):
when there was a drag show and a bunch of
right wingers showed up open carrying to intimidate people from
ever coming to the show, and the show ultimately was canceled. Yeah,
and it happened again recently a couple of days ago,
some people showed up to a drag event with guns
and weapons. Um, which is so I never thought, like
my my adulthood is mostly New York City, So being

(21:55):
around people who were like because New Yorkers like I've
walked the streets in full drag for a practically every
hour of the day. I've done something at brunch, I've
done something that I've I've gone home at three at
six am. I've done the whole gamut. And New Yorkers
don't give a funk. They don't care about you. They're
not looking at you, they're not trying to find out
what they do. Want to go to their plays and
get back these other These people are going out of

(22:17):
their way. They're driving miles and miles and miles to
do what I guess they think is right. M So
then to that point, then let's talk about how politicians
have been able to levy that vitriol and try and
turn it into votes and legislation and all of this nonsense.
Like we've we've seen a wave of anti trans bills

(22:39):
across the country and now Republican lawmakers in several states
are trying to propose legislation to ban miners from even
showing up to the drag shows. Like all that reading
to the kids, that would be you would literally go
to jail for that. What what do you think is
the motivation behind those types of bills? And like why now,
why now all of a sudden does there seem to

(22:59):
be up tick? And this type of legislation from the
right trying to get children banned from drag shows is
it is just a sneaky ploy in my opinion, from
right wing conservatives to make it seem like all drag
queens want kids at their shows. Most of us don't
want your kids at your shows. You can't have a dollar,

(23:20):
and you can't have money at the tip. We don't
want your kid at our show. There are some people
who want to read, who want to read to kids,
But most drag queens are not making I'm gonna like
I don't make any content for children. I don't, I don't.
It's like it's like stand up comedy. Most stand up
comedians don't want kids at their shows. Now, there are
some comedians who make comedy that will be suitable for children. Yes,

(23:41):
there are some comedians who make and it is a
very small it is a tiny group of comedians. Brian Reagan. Yeah,
there's like three niggas out there making making comedy for kids.
You know what I mean. But the truth is most
comedians don't want to look down and see a kid
at their show, and most directly the same way. But

(24:02):
when you are um, But then when we interviews, Now,
even even though I don't want kids at my show,
I now have to defend white kids should be allowed
at drag shows, even though I don't want Even though
I don't want kids in my show. This is crazy,
this is and it's such a sneaky little tactic that
they use too. So now I'm defending something that I

(24:24):
don't even want. But I think there are some drag
artists who are completely appropriate for children. I'm not one
of them. That's why I don't have kids at my shows. Okay,
So then if the kid angle is to smoke screen,
what do you think is the real reasons for the
legislation transphobia, transphobia, and misogyny and trans misogyny. It is
all just thinly veiled homophobia, transphobia, and attempts to push

(24:46):
trans people into non existence. First, they don't want trains
people um in the bathrooms. So now now now you
can't use bathroom unless you're at home. You have to
way to you go home to use the bathroom, which
is bullshit. We've all had to rush use the bathroom somewhere,
running to somewhere, use the bathroom real quick. And then
they say, well, you can't mention any of it at
school if you're if you're trans at school, you better

(25:06):
be hiding. So now, if you're a teacher, if you're
a student, if you're if you're a principal, if you're
a janitor, you cannot mention that your trans or even
that you know trans people because the things like they
don't say gay bill, and now they don't want you
to be able to be to work anywhere. They're trying
to just push you back into hiding. In a close
because they because they don't want to see you in
public at all. And it starts with the bathroom. They
put you out of the classroom, they put you out

(25:27):
of this, they push you out of that, to push
you out of that. And but they by the time
they push you out of all these places in spaces,
you're just existing in your home so they don't have
to see you the right Also, now this whole idea
about the grooming part of it, a lot of these
bills are around, Like originally it was the bathroom. They're

(25:47):
gonna try and get you in the bathroom. Oh that
didn't work, okay? Were they trying to turn your kids
to know one of them? Let me sey right now.
The most the most dangerous thing that could happen at
a drag show is a conservative might show up with
a gun and kill someone. It's not the drag queens,
is that the people coming to see the drag queen.
The dangerous, most dangering at a gay bar is that
a conservative might show up with a gun and fucking

(26:09):
kill you. It's needless to say this type of rhetoric
from the politicians from from the right wing incites a
degree of violence against this community, like like even just
this year, I think I get the stats right as
over a hundred and twenty protests and significant threats and
forty seven states so far this year just against LGBTQ

(26:31):
and DRAG events this year. What is the response to
that from the drag community? Is it just security? Like
what can you do to continue to foster a safe
environment where people can be themselves? Well? I think that, Um,
you know what when the when when things happen like
what what like what happened in this recent shooting, in
this in the in the in the gay club recently,

(26:53):
and in the Walmart Colorado spring, the Colorado Springs and
in that Walmart. They call them the shooting, but they
don't call them terrorists. I don't know why they never
get they don't get labeled a terrorists. It is terror,
it's domestic. Terror is an attempt to scare you out
of out of leaving your home again. Remember, the whole
goal is to get you to stay away so they
never have to see you. You can't even go hang
out in spots, spaces that are just for you. Now.

(27:13):
They want you to just hang out just in your home,
go away, never be seen out in public ever anywhere.
And the guy who did the shoot in Colorado Springs,
you know, his dad came forward and is saying stuff like,
I'm just so glad that find that he's not gay.
When I heard it was in a gate club, I
was just met that. I thought he's gonna be gay.
It's like, you're not worthy that your son killed five
people allegedly. You're mad that he might have been gay

(27:34):
in the process. Like, baby, get your get your priorities together.
And you know, drag artists are not going anywhere, So
I hate to break the news, see Mary, but drag
has been around for a very long time before anyone
who's alive now has been breathing. Drag has been around
for a very very very long time. Gender bidding has

(27:54):
been around for a very long time. Trans people have
been around for a very very long time. And and
and and and we're not going anywhere anytime soon. You
have given us more than enough of your time. The
show is we're here. You can see that on HBO
HBO Max Bob the Drag Queen, thank you for going
beyond the scenes with us, my pleasure and um please

(28:16):
check out Roy and his new drag Queer and his
new drag name Beyond the Scenes. After the break, I'll
be joined by guest Channing Joseph and Frank de Caro,
who will give us some insight into the origins and
history of drag. We'll be right back. Welcome back to
Beyond the Scenes. Now. I just chatted with Bob the
Drag Queen about his personal journey and the importance of

(28:38):
representation on screen and all of the attacks that conservatives
have on drag and that entire culture. But now let's
talk about the lone history of drag. I'm joined now
by two guests who are gonna help break this down
for us. First, I'm joined by journalists and professor of
journalism at Princeton University Channing Joseph Channing. Welcome to the show.

(29:01):
Great to be here, Roy, thanks for having me. Might
add Chinning, your headphones are stunning. Thank you. I'm also
joined by the author of Drag Combing through the Big
Wigs of show Business, Frank Decro. Frank, how you doing.
Thank you for joining us as well. Thank you for
having it. It's it's such a pleasure to be here.
Now this question is for both of you, but Frank

(29:22):
out throw it to you first give us an overview
of the origins of drag and just where the term
dragg comes from. Let's just start with the basics. Well,
a lot of times they say that that the word
drag comes from a woman's clothes dragging on the ground.
I don't know if I believe that, and hopefully chanting
as a better perspective on that, but I will say

(29:42):
that as long as a guy has been on the stage,
and as as long as being on the stage or
being in public has been popular entertainment and drawn a crowd,
somebody has been cross dressing. To use the oldest possible
term you can think of for that, Shakespearean tradition, how
men playing female rows, Kabuki tradition has that. The English pantomimes,

(30:06):
which still exists today every holiday season has the pantomime
dame in it. There's always was someone dressing, either a
man dressing as a woman or a woman dressing as
a man when we were thinking in the most binary
of terms, but that's always been a part of entertainment.
And the drag queen. Let's say that the sort of
multimedia drag queen has existed at least since the early

(30:34):
twentieth century and and perhaps even before. There's evidence now
that the first drag queen may have been a freed
and slave person. So and that's a whole other thing
that we're all looking at now and wondering more about.
But there was a guy in the early in the teens,
the nineteen uh that nineteen twelve, who got his own

(30:54):
Broadway theater named after him, and he was one of
the highest paid entertainers in show business, named Julian Eltinge,
and everyone kind of looks at Julian Elton's is sort
of the grandmother of the mall because she was kind
of the rude Paul of nineve. She had a magazine
to give women tips on how to look beautiful. She
was in movies playing you know, a spy who goes

(31:16):
behind enemy lines dressed as a woman. She was on
Broadway doing the singing her own songs in drag and
uh and what was hugely popular. And uh so, the
anyone that says drag is sort of a new phenomenon
is really speaking in untruth. There's a popular meme going
around now that says, if you know that that you've

(31:39):
always been entertained by drag, And then they show of
course Tutsie and Bosom Buddies and some like it hot
every movie that that we've ever seen in the twentieth
century with with Dragon it and so like, you can't say,
oh my god, these drag queens are so dangerous when
you've been laughing at them for a hundred years plus
channing feelings of the gaps. They're like in that old

(32:02):
school sense because you know, I know there was also
a time where women weren't allowed to could you believe
that women wasn't allowed at a time to do a
thing and men had to take on the roles of
women in theater because we just we don't know where
to find in it women actors. I guess I'll put
on some lipstick. Absolutely. So one of the things that

(32:24):
most people don't realize is that, um, the way we
use the term drag today is very loose. We're thinking,
as Frank pointed out, in binary terms, a man dressing
as a woman, woman dressing as a man, and uh,
it's sort of applied indiscriminately, whether we're talking about, as
Frank pointed out, Shakespearean theater or kabuki. Um, we're talking

(32:48):
we're calling it drag when those are actually separate traditions,
and it's important, I think to specify the specific uh
differences between those cultural culture. Sure, there's actually an American
tradition of of drag which does go back to the
culture of African Americans formerly enslaved African Americans in Washington,

(33:10):
d c UM in the eighteen eighties. Um. And from
that point to today we can we can trace the
the origin of the ballroom culture and vogueing um on
all the way to Repul's drag race. It's sort of
has maintained the same basic format in terms of basically
a competition where where where black people meet and celebrate, um,

(33:35):
celebrate each other and and compete for the prize. But
back then, the first drag queen was named William Dorsey Swan.
And the culture of DC after the Civil War there
was this there was this tradition of celebrating freedom. Of course,
you're you're now free, you no longer enslaved. Celebrate yeah, yeah,

(33:57):
and absolutely And in that in that period of time,
one of the big ways that celebrated was to um,
what's to have a parade called Emancipation Day. The Emancipation
Day in DC, there were these beautiful women who would
who would essentially wear these usually flower covered dresses or

(34:21):
um or crowns, and maybe part of the parade. They'd
represent the embodiment, the personification of liberty for black people,
and they were called queens. The first drag queen, William
Dorsey Swan actually dubbs himself the first drag queen because
the balls were already being called drag drag balls or
drag parties or drag dances that or just drags. But

(34:45):
he decided to say, I am the queen of this ball.
So actually adopting the term queen is a way of
of connecting, um, the sort of celebration of queerness with
emancipation from enslavement. It's actually there's always been this connection

(35:05):
because in the United States context, between African American emancipation
and drag, which is not something that people talk about. Um.
So that's something that that I like to point out,
um because as we know, so this is day there's
all there's there's lots of discussion about drag queens misappropriating

(35:25):
or or arrogating to themselves, you know, various of aspects
of black culture or black women's expression. And actually that's
been that's been that's been dating back over a hundred years.
You've cracked a can on something that I want to
that I want to go back to for a second,
because I want to talk about some of the common

(35:46):
misconceptions and stereotypes about drag that you wish layman like
myself were a little more informed on. And Frank, I
want to get your answer and this as well. But
first let's go back to the distinction between cross dressing
and drag. I'm from Alabama and I worked on the
side of town that was the more free, willing side
of Birmingham called Five Points South, and that was my

(36:07):
first introduction as a teenager and to every other culture
from skate culture to gay culture, to tattoos and nose
so everybody was just called a cross dresser. This is
Birmingham in the eighties. There was not the level of
specificity and understanding that we have now. So let's just
start with cross dressing and drag and what the differences
are there, and then what are some of the other

(36:28):
misconceptions you think people get wrong about their culture. I
think cross dressing it has been a pejorative term, but
it is a descriptive term and it describes the sort
of conception of of a man picking on a woman's
a woman's appearance, um, And it actually applies to different
kinds of pros dressing. It applies to African traditions and

(36:52):
kabuki and Shakespearean theater, all those really could be described
as cross dressing, whereas drags more um at least now
it's more of a celebration of um, gender expression, and
I think breaking out of gender roles, right. I think
if you look at, for example, Shakespearean theater, for whatever reason,

(37:14):
they didn't have women for growth. It wasn't about It
wasn't a decision based on self expression or a desire
to explore explore your gender, explore ways of how you
want to see yourself right or how you see yourself. Um,
it was it was more sort of there were other
reasons why men were dressing as, wearing dresses and so on,

(37:36):
whereas dragons more of a celebration. Like Martin Lawrence dressing
up as was not Martin to dinner fined with his
own gender and expression. It was just now, I'm gonna
put on a wig and some lipstick and crack some jokes.
At least not not as far as we know, but

(37:57):
you know, before that there was someone like Flip Wilson.
And while it was done, you know, in prime time
he Flip Wilson. For people who don't know, he was
the first African American comedian performer to have his own
variety show that was a hit. I mean there were
others who had who had done specials and who had

(38:17):
done short things, but Flip was on for like four
years and his Yeah, he was friendly and a storyteller,
but he was he would do Uh. This character named
Geraldine Jones who had a boyfriend named Killer, but that
never stopped her from flirting with every man from and
I'm not kidding Bill Cosby to O. J. Simpson to

(38:40):
Bing Crosby. Okay, he was hugely popular. But what he
did that was so different from a name was he
played a character who believed she was beautiful and kind
of was sexy and was sort of a feminist character.
And people flipped out over that in terms of they

(39:01):
liked it, but also because it really was different. She
wore Pucci print dresses, she had great gams. She she
was kind of the person who influenced Row Paul in
many ways. And Brew admits that who's my age and
so you know, I mean it was, um, you know,
she was watching the same TV I was watching, and
flip kind of in was the introduction to drag for

(39:24):
a lot of people. What's different and what's important about him,
And it goes to the misconceptions about drag is he
was not making fun of women at all. And I
think that some people want to say that, oh, drag
is misogynist, and some of it when it's played like
look how ugly I am, And every comedian is guilty
of doing that at some o point. But he A

(39:47):
lot of drag comes out of an appreciation for female
tropes and for female characteristics, but then it exaggerates them
to Jessica a bit proportions, you know. I mean it's
if nobody really looks No woman really looks like Bianca
dela Rio unless she's in drag too, you know. I mean,

(40:08):
it's like and now chanting as you know, you could
be assist gender woman, you can be assist gender, you
can be any, you can come out of the womb whatever.
But if you've got too much fabulous, you can be
a drag queed now and and it doesn't matter what
you're plumbing looks like, and thank Heaven for as long
as when that light goes on, you're funny and glamorous.
It doesn't matter what you looks like. And that's kind

(40:28):
of an exciting thing. I think. I think that's fabulous,
and I I agree with with Frank Um that you know,
performance performers like like Flip Bulson were really important. And
I think, you know, looking at looking at that aspect
of drag, like the performative aspect, it hasn't always been
performance for like a public audience. That's one point which

(40:51):
I'll get to, but the the important point I think
is performers performs, just like gerallyne Jones. They were important because, um,
I think they were part of you know, at least
for a couple of decades of the beginning of the
twentieth century, when drag balls um sort of became more

(41:12):
open to the public. They were a way of showing,
i think straight to gender people, how fabulous you could be, uh,
you know, how fabulous a man could be wearing heels
and wearing a wig and so on. Um that it
it wasn't purely about comedy, was also about showing confidence
and and um, showing sort of just bending a little

(41:36):
bit the the expectations of gender roles, and now I think,
you know, they're completely bent, which I think is a
positive thing. Um but but but but I think you know,
when when if you look back, for example, of the
nineteenth century, balls of balls from the eighteen eighties, those
were secret events. Those are people getting together in each

(41:56):
other's houses, putting on a show for for each other.
It was a community thing. It only really became uh
sort of a thing that the general public was allowed
into in the in the twenties or so. And at
that point, um, people were really you know, people were
interested to see that there were thousands of people would

(42:18):
gather to see drag balls because there was such hunger
for it. And I guess you know, it's still the
same way. People are hungry to see how gender can
be reinterpreted and expressed in different ways that that they
have been taught were wrong or um immoral and so on.
I certainly was taught that. I think that's what gets
to why people love drags. Through the artifice, you get

(42:40):
to this tremendous truth about humanity and you all. But
it's also incredibly entertaining. It's not like a lesson in
gender studies. It's it's sort of already is, but it's
sort of talk about the spoonful of shirtar that makes
the medicine go down. It's really entertaining, and you're like, oh,
wait a minute, we're not all uh, you know, there is.

(43:02):
It's showing you the spectrum of gender in a way
and and you're you know, but in a safe way.
And not only was were drag balls a safe space,
but you had people like Milton Burl, who was the
fount you know, he's Mr Television when they turned the
TVs on. He was the guy that got people to
buy TV and he did drag almost every week, and

(43:22):
he said, oh, yeah, you want as a kid, I'd
sneak into the drag balls. And so you're sort of like,
wait a minute. So you're twelve or fifteen and you're
you know, you're sneaking into drag balls, you know, and
typically you know, stealing, you know, as as so much
entertainment is, that's sort of like, oh good, I'll get
the gig because I'm the white guy, but but I'll
go learn everything you know from the from the black performers,

(43:45):
as so many people do and did so when you
talk about researching for your book, and Channing you low
keep being very humble because I know a lot of
that Swan research that we even know now in the
zeitgeist is because you went to digging and not the truth,
but that person about ten years ago you went digging.
So both of you are very verse in the history

(44:08):
of drag But in your research of the history of
this culture, how does the black and l g B
t Q plus community fit into that history. I know
we talked a little bit about d C, but give
me some other ways where they fit into that culture
or if there's been erasure. Well, I think that one
of the one important thing to point out is you know,

(44:28):
and just just the to pick it back from off
of what Frank was saying, drag balls have been a
safe place for lots of people to express themselves and
to be seen and to and to meeb each other
and and to make connections and so on. But they've
also been really dangerous for a lot of folks to

(44:49):
um you know, over and over again throughout history, and
particularly mean certainly in the early twentieth century and in
the nineteenth century, drag balls were constantly um surveiled and
rated by the police, and people were thrown in jail,
oftentimes on really trumped up charges or or just no charges.

(45:10):
We just thought, we just think you're a suspicious person.
We're gonna throw him in jail because you're you're a
man wearing a dress. Um, So it's the the the
safety part is also the other side of it is
that it's been a really dangerous thing. People have people
have felt a need to express themselves in this particular way,
and um, the authorities have always looked at it as

(45:34):
a sort of dangerous thing. And in in the in
Swan's era, one time he was arrested and starting in
jail and the prosecutor you know, sort of admitted in
the prosecution documents of the prosecutor admitted, well, typically we
wouldn't we wouldn't send send the send Salan to you know,

(45:54):
prison for what we what we charged him with, which
was keeping at disorderly house, which is something that usually
something to do with prostitution, sex work. But he said
we were trying to keep him off the streets because
of his quote evil example to the community and and
essentially says, you know, because because he is involved with

(46:15):
with uh sex with other men. So the authorities looked
at Swans drag balls. This is Swan the queen of drag,
Swans drag balls, as as as something that people found
so alluring that they want to copy, because that's why
he was an evil, an evil example to the community. Um,
the community, you're gonna polit the community. And and and

(46:39):
that is exactly what we're seeing today with with with
many many politicians and other and other other folks, you know,
protesting drag drag, drag brunches and drag story time and
um protesting um, you know, discussions of being trans and

(47:00):
rules UM. And it's it's a similar kind of it's
you know, it's it's it is the same kind of
you know, policing literally policing UM and also culturally policing
the ways that we express ourselves and who we are.
If you don't fit into those roles, it's considered dangerous
and and we're and the straight says, people are still

(47:22):
really scared that that their kids are going to be
queer like us. So then when we talk about that
activism and that resistance culture within this community, Frank, let's
go back fifty years ago to Stonewall in New York,
City and talk a little bit about that as being
a bit of a pivot point in terms of drag

(47:42):
becoming a little more mainstream or a little more in
the face of people, because it merged perfectly with the
emergence of disco music as well. So yeah, exactly. Well
it's interesting to me because I'm calling out disco gay.
I'm just saying that you can day by that ship
no matter what your orientation is. Some good as music

(48:03):
keep going. No, I was you can say that my
next book is about the history of disco. So yes,
it was, but it's it'll be my take on it,
you know. And then and then chanting you do the
actual study of the stuff. I'll do the here's the
buffet of the glitter, and then you serve the entree
of the meat. Oh no, I just make the dessert. Yes,

(48:32):
you can do anything you want. Um. I was gonna
say that the stone Wall for people who don't I mean,
more people know now than us do, with a lot
of people who still go what is that stone wall
was the turning point in the beginning of the gay
rights movement in America. Uh, And there were things before that,
the Black cat and and Compton's uh cafeteria out in California.

(48:53):
But stone Wall is the moment in nine nine where
gays fall back, And despite what some mainstream movies will
tell you, it was not the cute little white kid
from the Midwest who was throwing bricks. It was trans
people who didn't even call themselves that that. They call
themselves transvestites and activists, not even trans people really, but

(49:14):
there's people like Marsha p. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera and uh,
that Stormy Delarbary that was that I was like Channing
helped me at least the drag king who was of
all um, Stormy Delarbae. They were the ones who were
doing it. And honestly, with any movement, the people who

(49:36):
have the least and the most to lose at the
same time are the ones who are the bravest, the
ones who don't fit in the closet and also are like,
I'm not going in there. I've seen with how dark
it is in the closet. It stinks. I'm not going
to be in there. Um. But the ones who really

(49:57):
uh you know who who can't hide often tend to
be the people who wouldn't hide even if they could.
They tend to that personality type of oh no, I'm
not taking I'm not a second class look at me.
I'm fabulous, you know, and they're they're wearing their their
look on the street. Those are the ones who often
are the bravest and the toughest. And that's why when

(50:20):
some of you know, with what's going on now, you're
sort of like, I won't pick on the drag queen
if I were you. You know, that's that's like, you know,
it's like if you're gonna go, you know, I wouldn't
heckle the insult comic. You know. It's it's sort of
they'll they'll shook bob you. You know, it's sort of
it's like you think you're picking on the weak one,
but it's like they could outrun you. They can outrun
you in platform meals, you know, and and and then

(50:42):
take one off and beat the crap out of you
with it. You know. They these are tough people, and
yet they look so glamorous and so beautiful while they're
doing it. But um, I think that that was what
happened at Stonewall, was the ones throwing the bricks at
first were and and then forming a kick line. Is
that and I'm gonna use the word gay the way
I like, is it as if it's a great thing,
the greatest thing you can say. What's the gays? They

(51:04):
formed a kick line in the streets, so they're doing
a rockhead number against the police. That is the gayest
thing you can possibly do. And yet it's sort of
like the number. It's not only gorgeous legs, that's like
twenty middle fingers, you know. I mean, it's just it
is the ultimate. It's like, oh, you want us to
be gay a brick? The police would have rather a

(51:26):
brick be thrown at because how do you react to
that if you're sort of like, oh, yeah, you're gonna
we're gonna get arrested. But well if I go on,
I'm gonna at least look good doing it. And then
you start a kick line that that to me is
the gayest, most powerful thing. It's sort of like, oh,
I'll show you. And that's why I mean, drag today
is leading the cultural conversation, but I honestly the Republicans

(51:48):
want to shut it down, and the proud poises are like,
you know who you're taking on. It's like these these
people do, these are not mincing f words, you know,
I mean, you know, they're they're uh. These queens will
kick your they'll clean your clock, you know, I mean
they know how to do it because they've been threatened
from the moment they came out of the closet or

(52:09):
emerged from the womb. Perhaps, so when we talk about
the middle fingers to the authorities then versus the middle
fingers to politicians now and a lot of the policies
that have starting to be passed too to suppress this
this type of culture. I don't think you're gonna be
able to legislate out anything that has real influence on society.

(52:32):
Talk to me a little bit, and Channing, I'll start
with you. Talk to me a little bit about the
influence that drag has had on beauty and fashion. I
already talked to Bob about television, but let's talk about
pop culture and just general beauty and fashion and the
way drag is influenced that even music. Hill. You know,
the first thought that I had when you asked the
question is Beyonce of course, um, you know, and her

(52:55):
her latest album Renaissance. There are many references to balls
and who you know, the category is and tends across
the board, and if you're listening to the lyrics of
the songs like like Alien Superstar and like he Didn't
um and so it sort of shows that like an
artist at that at that level is is engaging with

(53:17):
with drag. We've drag culture, history of drag culture and
as well as UM. I think I think drag as
a as an influence on beauty has just made it
more okay to experiment with, you know, makeup with with
different forms of attire um for all people rights. It's

(53:38):
made it okay for men to be a little more
from fam and more fabulous, and it's made it okay
for women to be much more tabulous if they want.
UM is dragged the reason why I have like we
were an avocado mask at nights some nights? When is
that the reason the words folio eight You could probably

(53:58):
you probably do a thesis drawing the line between those.
When RuPaul got the mac Cosmetics uh gig in the
in the early nineties, that was shocking to a lot
of people. A lot of this stuff was shocking back
and now it takes a lot to shock anybody. But
back in the day, when RuPaul is suddenly like, oh wait,

(54:21):
look you know what, I'm gonna be the spokesmodel for
Viva Glawn and she looked gorgeous. You know, the drag
bus has left. You just gotta get on it to
stand in the way or try to fight. It will
ultimately be unsuccessful, and it's also shortsighted because it's started.
Do you you really the the upsetting thing to me
when people protest drag meed Story Hour is like so

(54:43):
that that those little kids that feel different for whatever
reason and like sparkle, whether whatever their gender, they don't
get the same treat They don't get to be happy,
they don't get to see someone in the book. They don't.
You know, it's very upsetting to me to to see
lives being threatened, drag lives and gay lives, queer lives

(55:05):
being threatened when it's preposterous. You know, if drag beans
are groomers, it's like, well, they're not groomers. Their hairstylists,
their makeup artists, they're not they're not groomers, and they
the pedophile sense they're groomers, and that that your nails
look fabulous by the end of it, you know, I mean, stupid,
it's just a dumb argument. To say they're groomers. It's like, yeah,

(55:28):
that's that's why people do drag. It's like, no, that's
why clowns become clowns and loculate across space and then
eat you or whatever. Clowns do. You know, it's different
people to different people. I think queer folks are still
a minority, but we're just the powerful, influential minority because

(55:49):
of because of how badass we are. Um you know, uh,
I always always say, and that's united still won't happen.
It was sort of a surprise to people that suddenly
that queer folks could fight back, And the reality is
there there was all kinds of unseen, invisible work that

(56:10):
had to get done to build a community that felt
confident enough to fight back. So there was decades of
work behind behind that decision to fight back on that day.
And now we've had another fifty years of organizing to
point where we're like, there's no way we're not We're
not going to get back at the closet. We're not
going to go back backwards. So yes, they're protesting, but

(56:33):
we're not only a cultural force. We're just too I think,
too powerful to organized a community. Now it doesn't make sense.
It's it's irrational to to go against us. What do
you all think the future of drag? Where does this
Because at this small bald, this pebble was rolling down

(56:56):
the hill and now it's a big boulder, Where does
this go? Nixt how soon to the drag president is?
When I'm masking? Oh that's a great one. Um, when
we have to give Riddy? Do we have to give
Riddy Giuliani credit for dressing and drag as Rutia? I
hope not. I don't because he was an ugly drague

(57:19):
that was ugly drag from everywhere. Yeah, it's hard to
get mascara out of here, but he managed to do it.
I think it's gonna look like, uh, just just this
amazing buffet of talent. I think that it's gonna come
down to how good are you at it? Not what

(57:42):
you know, whether you're dressed as a man or a woman,
or horror icon where you're covered in blood or you're
covered in sequence. I think it can be anything. I think, uh,
it's drag kids who are so cool with themselves at
eight or ten that they're their dress in drag as
and performing, not just oh mommy, I feel different, but

(58:05):
they're really like, oh, I'm gonna be fearsome, go do this.
And you know. The thing that the moment in my
life when I realized stuff was changing was when I
was speaking to a group of young people and I said, well,
I came out when I was sixteen in nineteen seventy eight,
and the kids said, why did you wait so long?
And I and I was like, oh my god, things

(58:27):
have really chased sixteen. I was like in the advanced
placement program for K and it was late seventies. It
was like, you know, you're you know, you're you know
you're gay or forever. Of course I'm a gay, you know.
And I think the future of drag is is going
to be gorgeous and fabulous and diverse. That's one of

(58:48):
the best things about Drag two. I didn't say this before.
You know, people are always saying we have to in entertainment,
we have to strive for diversity. With drag, all you
have to do is tell the truth. If you do,
you know, and maybe it's that way with everything, but
if you just show who was doing cool stuff, you
don't have to go looking for diversity because it's all
there in your face. It's go it's gorgeous, It's like something.

(59:09):
Everybody was participating it in their own wonderful way, so
it's not forced in any way. Just get out there
and tell the truth and you'll have people of every
background and color and creed and type. You know, Jenny,
does it look like to you? I think UM drag

(59:31):
is a huge factor in UM what will become a
complete transformation of how we think about sex and gender
in the future and how we talk about sex and gender.
How we think about it will has already completely changed, right,
but in the future it will be so core to
who we are to talk about UM diversity of being

(59:54):
an onn binary or trans, or the diversity of gender expression,
all those. You know, we'll have new words for it,
because the words always change, right I think. But but
it will be completely transformed. One of the things I
think that most people sort of don't think about it
realizes like it's not just that they used to be
old words and now we have cool words UM. Like

(01:00:17):
in Swan's time, it was you know, you were a
queen or you weren't. It was about what you were
actually was about whether you were participating in balls or not.
Whether you were winning the balls, whether you were a queen,
and then later you were um, you know, um other
scholars talk about like what whether you were a fairy
or a pansy, And then sort of after World War

(01:00:38):
Two it became this homosexual heterosexual slicing. And now we're
you know, now we're much more diverse in terms of
being penned or fluid, and everybody's becoming more exactly you know, binary, transgender, queer, gender, fluid.
We have so many more options. And I think in
the future we will either have many more options than that,

(01:01:01):
or it will just be so part of who we
are that it becomes irrelevant in this sort of way.
And it's it's important, I think, um, just to realize
that we're strong enough to get through this and we
will and and um, no matter what they do, all
of the way we think about about our our gender

(01:01:22):
and our and our sexuality will will completely transform. I
hope that the future drag does not include more of
the ignorance and laws and hatred that your community has
been dealing with. The two of you are on the
spearhead educating dumb motherfucker's on what the right things are
and how to be more knowledgeable citizens. I thank you Channing,

(01:01:45):
I thank you Frank, and also shout out to Bob
for coming on earlier. That's all the time we have
for today. Play my theme music. Listen of the Daily
Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcast, the I Heart
Radio app, or wherever you get your podcast. M m

(01:02:11):
hm