The Queer History of Drag and Conservative Backlash

Conservatives are outraged by kids’ exposure to drag shows and there’s been an increase in protests at drag events. But drag dates all the way back to ancient societies and Shakespearean theater. Host Roy Wood Jr. chats with the star of HBO’s We’re Here, Bob the Drag Queen, Princeton journalism professor,  Channing Joseph, and author of the book, Drag: Combing Through The Big Wigs of Show Business, Frank DeCaro. They chat about Black and Queer trailblazers, the legacy of drag activism, and how representation from shows like Rupaul’s Drag Race has helped make drag more mainstream and builds allyship among its viewers. Bob also talks about his personal journey growing up in the south and the challenges he faced filming season 3 of We’re Here. Bob even gives Roy a drag queen name.

 

Watch the original segments: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9T6ZKlOPAmU 

 

Original air date:  January 10, 2023

See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 (00:07):
Hey, welcome to Beyond the Scenes the podcast. It goes
deeper intant segments and topics that originally aired on The
Daily Show. This is what you gotta think of this podcast.
As if the Daily Show is tomato soup, then this
podcast is all the topics you add to make the
soup even more warm and delicious. With the croutons and
the crackers and the grilled cheese you eat with the

(00:28):
tomato soup. See, now you're all cozy and you got
the perfect ratio of liquid and carbs. That's what this
podcast is. I'm Roy with Jr. Today we're crackers, Bobby Drack.
When we are we wheat crackers? Can we be whole?

Speaker 2 (00:44):
Green?

Speaker 3 (00:45):
Let me let me be Let me be a one
of the rye. What's the dark brown? Let me be
Let me be a pupper Nickel, Cracker Nickel.

Speaker 1 (00:58):
That is the voice, I guess Bob the Drag Queen,
And I'm Roy Wood Jr. And today we're talking about
a segment on the show but corresponding dull Sat Sloan
where she talked about the history of drag and the
rise in protests and threats directed at drag events and
the number of bills introduced by Republican lawmakers seeking to

(01:18):
prevent children from attending drag shows. Let's get a quick clip.

Speaker 4 (01:22):
Hello friends. If you know me, you know that I
love me some drag. It's slave sports, but for people
who don't want to deal with any balls, if you
know what I mean. So recently conservatives have been acting
like drag is some brand new thing that liberals dreamed
up to turn your kids into glitter debs. Now, while
eighteenth century England gave us drag queens, nineteenth century America

(01:45):
gave us drag balls. It's the only time queens colonized
the country and made it better. One of the most
famous drag performers at that time was a former enslaved
African named William Dorsey, the Queen Swan. Dorsey's slaved so
hard he went on to become a pioneer of modern
ballroom culture. America's drag balls brought the culture to the
next level. In Harlem. They became so popular that men

(02:07):
and women would come from all over to present their
looks to a panel of judges pageant style. And you know,
there's something comforting and knowing that even hundreds of years ago,
people were telling someone to their face that they were
a messy bitch whose outfit is drash ah the circle
of life.

Speaker 1 (02:23):
Later on in the show, I'll be joined by some
additional guests who are gonna help me dive into the
history of drag. But first, my fellow Pumpa Nickel is
on the microphone with me today.

Speaker 3 (02:35):
How Root please.

Speaker 1 (02:40):
Rue Paul's Drag Race. Season eight winner hosted the podcast
Sibling Rivalry and star of HBO's We're Here, which just
launched this third season. Boby Drag Queen, Welcome to Beyond
the Scenes. How do you do?

Speaker 3 (02:54):
I'm well, thank you so much for asking, thank you
for having me, and I'm really proud to you know. Yeah,
we have our our third season of We're Here, our
Emmy Award winning television show, We're Here. I'm very, very
proud of it.

Speaker 1 (03:05):
What I appreciate about that television program is that you
don't just tell the story of this world strictly from
liberal enclaves, as they like to say. I flipped past
one day and y'all was in Jackson, Mississippi. I go,
oh my god, we Jackson milling up in the south South.
That's the south side, that's cheese grit South.

Speaker 3 (03:26):
Oh yeah, in place where they call they call what
they call it, Mississippi. We was in Mississippi, honey, and Mississippi.
That's like a drag queen, don't know what was a
Mississippi Mississippy.

Speaker 1 (03:37):
If you could as as laming as you can for
our listeners who don't know, explain exactly what drag is.

Speaker 3 (03:45):
This is how I define drag. Drag is blurring the
gender line while creating art. Not all drag queens do numbers,
Not all drag queens dance, not all drag queens scenes.
Some drag queens do comedy. I know a drag queen
and Linda Simpson who takes photographs, you know what I mean?
Like if you people who there are people do dragging.
Their whole thing is just going to the club and
just being pretty and sitting there and hanging out and partying.

(04:06):
There are people who go up there and they do
I'm I'm a stand up comedian, so you know when
I do it. Me Bianca del Rio, we do stand
up comedy, when we do a Flame Monroe comedy, when
we do our drags and yah and some drag artists
you know, are are our women and some are men
and some are non binaries. Some are sis women, some

(04:27):
are trans women, some are sis men, some are trans men,
some are gay men. There are some straight men out
there doing drag. I love everyone. Actually they don't know
that they never heard of a straight drag queen while
watching all the Tyler Perry movies. I'm like, okay, sure, sure,
you never heard a straight drag queen. Okay, got it.

Speaker 1 (04:43):
Let's let's go back to the beginning for you, just
in terms of your introduction into the world of drag,
Like what were some of your experiences like early on,
like early and take me back, Bob drag queen. One point,
you auldn't even drag queen. You was just Bob potentially
drag queen to.

Speaker 3 (04:59):
Be So what I was young, when I was young,
my mom used actually own a drag bar. My mom
own a drag bar and Columbus Georgia called Sensations. If
you are a gen xer or a boomer who was
gay in the Columbus Georgia area in the nineties, you
probably went to Sensations and you probably went to my
mom's drag club. And that's where I first heard of

(05:20):
and you know, encountered the species known as drag queens.

Speaker 1 (05:26):
When you first started drifting into the world of drag yourself,
did you have representation, did you have role models? Were
there other examples? Were you navigating this world on your
own and a complete folk.

Speaker 3 (05:40):
So when I started dragging, it was two thousand and eight,
thousand and nine, and I was in New York City.
I was twenty two, twenty three years old, and you know,
I was really kind of just basing it off of
what I see because RuPaul's Drag Race had just started
on TV, and I knew drag from RuPaul and Tuong
Fu and Parsiloquent in the Desert and you know movies
like that Ruby Hart Is it was the ving Rams movie.

Speaker 1 (06:03):
Oh Holiday Heart, Holiday Heart, Holiday Heart.

Speaker 3 (06:06):
But then by this time it was something called repost
drag race. It was less characters of drag and more
like actual drag queens. And I thought it was just
so interesting. I was like so impressed. So then I
went out and I got myself some makeup, and I
went to the local club in my called Lavish Lounge.
It used to be in Queens also doesn't exist. As
we keep talking, most of the clubs I'm gonna mention,
especially after the pandemic, a lot of them just don't

(06:27):
exist anymore. So they they're only in the minds of
people who were in these spaces. But it was lavish
lounge in a story of queens, and I remember going
and seeing these queens and meeting I remember the queen
I met for the first time ever. Her name was
blacky Oh was her name? Shout out to black e Oh,
who I think is still working in these streets, like
Jackie o' nassas name was her name, And her name
was blacky Oh Nasty it was her name actually, And

(06:50):
I started going out. So it was a little bit
of like what I saw on the internet. You know,
there was no Instagram. Instagram hadn't even they hadn't even
been in Instagram yet. There was no Instagram, there was
no There was those Facebook and the clubs and I
would go to and what I saw on ther Paul's
drag race, so I was there. There was definitely some representation,
but it was it was not as easy to find

(07:11):
it today, like it's so easy to find drag queens today.
You can't throw a rock without hitting hitting a wig.

Speaker 1 (07:17):
You know, you come from the South. You come from Columbus,
Gelgia all the way up to New York. How much
of a culture shift was that or was it welcome?
Because because like growing up in the South, like how
did the South shape your views on gender roles? And
like this drag helped blurred gender lines and challenge strict

(07:38):
gender norms, like like talk to me a little bit
about the empowerment of it versus where you were, what
it was thought of where you were versus where you win.
As a twenty two year old, it was way more open.

Speaker 3 (07:49):
So when I was a kid and I grew up
in the South, so I did get a lot of
gender roles in gender norms places on me what it
means to be a man. A lot of my raising
instead a focusing on what it meant to be in
adult I was often told what it meant to be
a man, like as if there was this really specific,
unique set of rules that men had to follow that
women didn't have to follow, and vice versa. Women have

(08:11):
to do this and men can't do that. And I've
I kept bucking against that. I never wanted to go
by those rules. I wanted I always wanted to like
go against that and do something slightly different and challenge.
And that wasn't It wasn't just like I want. It
was just like I just didn't feel comfortable with the
idea that I had to do certain things just because
of what's between my legs and what I was born with.

(08:34):
So now it's like, so now I literally have to
do this, you know what I mean? And as a
black man, I already have that societal expectation on me.
You know, as a black person, you have to act
a certain way, you can't do certain things. I was
also given a lot of respectability politics as a young
black person. You know, a lot of us were taught
like you can't act certain ways in front of white people.
That was like ingrained in me. So when I got
to New York City, I was able to release all

(08:55):
of that and just do what felt comfortable to me.

Speaker 1 (09:00):
Cool thing about it is when you're in New York,
you're amongst your peers, and you have this degree, you
have a support network if nothing else, Talk just a
little bit about that part of it, Like, because it
is not it's not necessarily always the safest occupation. If
we're just gonna be one hundred about it, talk to

(09:21):
me a little bit about first learning that part of
the game, and you know, who were the people or
just how was the ecosystem in New York at the
time that you were coming up to start developing those
types of you know, protections.

Speaker 3 (09:33):
So when I started going out to the clubs, I
met just some of the like I mean talk about
like walking into a bar or a club or a
place in general and meeting people You're like, wow, these
are really my people. Like I actually found my people.
You know, I started doing drag with Peppermint, Frosty, all
these names are gonna sound so funny to you all,
but to me, they're like old friends. Peppermint, Flossy Flay, Frosty, Flags,

(09:57):
Honey Lebronx, Ray Scandalo del Vedega, Blackie O, Nasty Chandelier, Shaquita.
These are all the people that I you know, Pixie
Ave and thide.

Speaker 1 (10:10):
Names legendary, keep going.

Speaker 3 (10:13):
These are all the people that I was doing drag with,
and and and and we even had like networks to
help each other get to our gigs on time and safely.
You know, there would be times where, if you know,
taking a car in New York City is very expensive.
This is even before ubers. First of all, getting an uber,
getting a car as a drag queen sometimes it's impossible
as a black drag queen, forget about it. Then they're

(10:34):
never going to stop for you, so you have to
take the train down. So if I live in the Heights,
I'll stop by Harlem on the way to pick up
my friend Keija car because doesn't want to ride the
tram by herself either, So I stop off at Keija's
cars stop, I grab Keja and we go down. Then
we stop at you know, maybe Frosty stop to grab
her so we can get to the bar and Chelsea safely.
So we're all like in a group together and not

(10:55):
traveling alone.

Speaker 1 (10:56):
And you have to factor that into your travel time
on a regular basis because.

Speaker 3 (11:01):
Of oh yeah, for sure, for sure. I mean the
uber really changed the game because we're able to call
cars and if you if you had a good night,
we made money. If you didn't have a lot of
if you didn't make any money that night, you can't
afford the uber and you have to take the train
home anyway. But yeah, traveling, traveling in large groups is
very was I was a great way to keep safe.

Speaker 1 (11:20):
Going back to that this idea that just to live
your life, you all had to literally schedule what times
you congregated on the train so you could travel in numbers.
Talk a little bit about drags history and activism and
speaking out on a lot of the bullshit that's out
there in the industry. Have you been able to use

(11:40):
drag as a vehicle for political activism as well?

Speaker 3 (11:44):
Early in my drag I was doing a lot of
political political activism. I started a group called Drag Queen
Weddings for Equality with my friends. We would go to
Times Square and we would do these uh, these weddings,
these wedding demonstrations where two drag queens would get married
by a drag queen pastor and we would hand out
wedding invites uh and the wedding invites would have all
this information on the back about injustices to the queer community.

(12:06):
And then we would do these these demonstrations where where
we shout out more things and give people calls to
action and how they can you know, who they can call,
who they can talk to, how they can make a change.
There was also some some early arrest in my in
my drag career, getting getting a rest in full drag
from activism. I was one of those, one of those
activists you know, and and and and that's certainly did

(12:27):
not start with me. I mean, if even even back
to the Compton Cafeteria riots, you know, drag queens, drag artists,
gender benders have been bucking against the system to create
change for people, not just for gay men, but for
and not just for queer people, but for black people,
for reproductive rights, uh, immigration rights, even environmental right, I mean,

(12:50):
I know queens where I heard you know, saving the wells,
you know, like drag queens. If there is a if
there is somewhere to put our nose in some bit,
we will put our contour nose in your business, honey.

Speaker 1 (13:01):
After the break, I want to talk a little bit
more about how the added television exposure about the world
of drag, what the pros and cons are from shows
like RuPaul's Drag Race and your show. We're here, this
is beyond the scenes. We'll be right back, Bob. I
want to ask you about the television shows that have

(13:21):
stepped into the mainstream. Now, you know, you have a
show like RuPaul's Drag Race, which I'll say this and
this is and I speak as an alum of Last
Comic Standing third place twenty ten, checked the Wikipedia. I
feel like adding a competition element to anything makes people
more likely to watch it. It makes people more open

(13:43):
to immersing themselves in worlds that they don't necessarily care about,
simply because you're seeing people who are trying to be
the best at it. So like, I feel like RuPaul's
Drag Race nailed that coming off the heels of Top
Model essentially, which I feel like was kind of a precursor.
I'm not going to say that the two necessarily connected,
but there is.

Speaker 3 (14:02):
RuPaul has acknowledged that drag Race is inspired in part
by a Top Model, and I think you're absolutely right.
I mean, like, even just like Nowaday, you would never
watch someone poorly bick a cake, But when you put
when they're competing and you have someone hilarious like Nicole
Bayer doing, it's like, yeah, I'm gonna watch people fuck
up cakes. I would love love to see that. Also,
I want to quickly say to you, you reminded me
Beyond the Scenes is a great drag name, beyonda oh

(14:25):
miss beyond the scenes. Oh I love her, honey, give
it up.

Speaker 1 (14:29):
Beyond a scene, theney beyonda and then lift up the
lift up the back skirt or some ship to see
beyond the scenes. But no a show like RuPaul's Drag
Race or even We're Here, Like I feel like they've
all helped push drag into the mainstream, and you showcase
a different lens of quick like We're here, it's different
from drag Race, and that it's about the nuance, it's

(14:51):
about the emotion. These are reality shows and we haven't
even gotten into script of stuff like polls or like
it's like, what what do you think that those shows
helped do to change the perception of queerness in America?

Speaker 3 (15:05):
So, you know the drag Race fan base, you think
it's just a bunch of gay people watching drag Race,
but it's actually not all gay people. A lot of
straight people watch drag Race. And then what ends up
happening is you have a lot of allies watching drag Race.
And drag Race been on the air for it six
to fifteen seasons, sixteen seasons now, So what happens is
these kids who are watching drag Race and they are young,

(15:26):
are now allies adults who have children, you know what
I mean? They're now full on adults who have children
who will also be allies. It's not like when I
told one of my friends. One of my friends just
like a white concent creator was like, who couldn't understand
in twenty twenty, why was so important to say black
lives matter as a white person, Like why is it
so important? Like why can't I just do my thing
and not say this. I was like, you don't have
to say it, you don't have to say but I

(15:48):
will say this if you do say it. Once you
say black lives matter, because because you matter to so
many little white girls, because you matter to them, then
they hear you say black lives matter. Now black lives
matter to them. Now we have a black lives matter
supporter in the house of a Karen or a cop
who might end up hurting a black person or doing
something like that. So you're basically just spreading the word,

(16:08):
you know what I mean? And I think that, and
I think that's the situation that we're in right now.
That's how drag race has changed the world of understanding
queer people. In my opinion, it also shows like pose
for the straight guy who proposed drag race legendary transformation.
There's so many shows like this that put queer people

(16:29):
in front of people who are potential allies and let
them see that we're not out in these streets doing
some of this weird and nefarious stuff that they think
we're trying to do. We're just living our lives.

Speaker 1 (16:42):
People to it, because then you turned into one of them.
In the Bible City.

Speaker 3 (16:47):
You know, I would tell folks I was straight, and
then I took the vaccine and now look at me.
And then then I got a booster and now I'm
non binary. So watch out for that fizzer. It'll get
you good.

Speaker 1 (17:00):
It's like the intersection of anti VAXX and homophobia. I'm
not even sure if I'm supposed to laugh. Am I
allowed to laugh? As you're sure I'm gonna laugh later?
You didn't get me a camera. So that's the positive
benefits of the show. Let's flip it to the negative side,
because you know, a lot of groups, a lot of

(17:21):
organizations try to use these shows to springboard and justify
their hatred and discription. Has the exposure from these shows
also opened it up more to hatred and discrimination for viewers.
You know, like I know, like just talk to me
about we're here, Like, what's that like just being out
on set shooting? Because if I'm a Daily show correspondent

(17:44):
at something where like I was at a pro gun
rally and they was not fucking with your boy.

Speaker 3 (17:51):
I can imagine. I can imagine.

Speaker 1 (17:53):
So what's that like when you're out in places like Jackson, Mississippi? Yeah,
in full drag with cameras? Like what type of pushback
have you faced with this show?

Speaker 3 (18:05):
I think the real well people don't appreciate appreciate is
the reason why Jordan Klepper can go into these spaces
is because they don't know that he is not one
of them until he exposes himself. But when you but
you know, but when Roy walks into this boys, when Roy,

(18:26):
they were like, we know, we know you ain't one
of us. You need to have a camera a camera
and you black? No, absolutely not. But they'll go up
to Jordan Clepper because he's white and he's tall and
and and and and you and women love a tall
white man. They will go. They will go and tell
them their whole life story. Do they realize that he's.

Speaker 1 (18:46):
He's lived before and I'm happy go do that ship Clipper.
We happily every time they have a meeting, like we
think Clipper should go go.

Speaker 3 (18:55):
Do that one. Whenever I'm on the streets like I
just had an instance in Jackson, Mississippi, that is on
the the second episode of season three of We're Here,
where I'm I'm just I'm just walking down the street
like I'm I'm not even in drag, I'm just walking
down the street looking and then all of a sudden
they're like, oh, they're well, there's one of them. They're queers.
So they started yelling at me from across the street

(19:15):
just for walking around, like they're throwing completely baseless accusations
at me. And they go, well, this sounds like a loan.

Speaker 1 (19:25):
This sounds like because it doesn't sound like these are
just one or two syllable slurs. You're saying. It was
spitting whole phrases.

Speaker 3 (19:32):
Well, no, they were saying stuff like that. They didn't
call me a fag at per se. But what they
did do they called me a a They called me
a pedophile, they called me a pervert, they called me
a creep. All by the way, all I was doing
was just standing on the street corner. I mean, I
was holding a purse. So I was gay, but I
was just standing on the street corner holding a purse.
And from that, from that at from seeing that, they

(19:53):
ascertained they came to the clud and I was a pedophile,
a pervert. I was up to no good. I wanted
their kids, and I was like, I'm literally just on
the show. I was actually at the time, I was.
We had just finished filming and they hadn't put the
cameras down yet because they always just linger around little bit.
I was like, I'm gonna get my ice cream on
the street pro I want to get ice cream. I
was literally just looking for ice cream. Then I got like,
you know, verbally assaulted by these by these guys. So

(20:15):
I go up and I was like, I'm gonna talk
to them. I'm gonna actual give the guys little I'm
going to talk and see what's going on. And of
course they didn't want to They don't. They didn't really
want to talk. They just wanted to us sling their
bitrool at me and call me names. But but I
was interesting. It was maybe like two or three of them.
But the interesting about them is they actually weren't It's
not like they were being supported even in Jackson. Even

(20:35):
the folks in Jackson were like, can you what what
is wrong with y'all? Like we're not They're like everybody
and Jackson ain't doing this.

Speaker 1 (20:44):
This is them what good country folk? Yeah, like this
has it gotten beyond that? Has it been any like
type of death threats or threats of violence any.

Speaker 3 (20:55):
We have had? We have had. We've had threats of
violence for sure on our show, and luckily we do
have secure detail everywhere we go. You'll find out an
episode one, we were going to have a reading of
this book. Chandela, my drags are going to read some
books of these kids. And then they decided that they
didn't want it to happen, so they called and threatened
to show Uh, they didn't threaten to shoot the place up,
but they said, if you allow this to happen, we

(21:17):
will show up and we carry and we'll cause a scene.
So it was like kind of like veiled like that.
They were like, we're not saying, we're not saying we're
gonna kill you, but we're saying that we have guns,
we carry and we'll be there.

Speaker 1 (21:28):
So basically they threatened to do what actually happened for
real in Columbus, Ohio, when there was a drag show
and a bunch of right wingers showed up open carrying
to intimidate people from ever coming to the show, and
the show ultimately was canceled.

Speaker 3 (21:42):
Yeah, and it happened again recently a couple of days ago,
some people showed up to a drag event with guns
and weapons, which is so I never thought, like, my
adulthood is mostly New York City, So being around people
who were like, because New Yorker is like, I've walked
the streets and full drag at practically every hour of

(22:03):
the day. I've done something at brunch, I've done something.
I've gone home at three six am. I've done the
whole gamut. And New Yorkers don't give a fuck. They
don't care about you. They're not looking at you, they're
not trying to find out what. They just want to
go to their place and get back. These people are
going out of their way, They're driving miles and miles
and miles to do what I guess they think is right.

Speaker 1 (22:26):
So then to that point, then let's talk about how
politicians have been able to levy that vitriol and try
and turn it into votes and legislation and all of
this nonsense, Like we've seen a wave of anti trans
bills across the country, and now Republican lawmakers and several
states are trying to propose legislation to ban minors from

(22:48):
even showing up to the drag shows. Like all that
reading to the kids, that would be you would literally
go to jail for that. What do you think is
the motivation behind those types of bills? And like why now,
why now? All of a sudden does there seem to
be an uptick in this type of legislation.

Speaker 3 (23:02):
From right trying to get children banned from drag shows?
Is it is just a sneaky ploy in my opinion,
from right wing conservatives to make it seem like all
drag queens want kids at their shows. Most of us
don't want your fucking kids at your show. Does your
kid have a dollar? You can't have money at a tip.
We don't want your kid at our fucking show. There

(23:24):
are some people who want to read, who want to
read to kids, but most drag queens are not making
I'm gonna like I don't make any content for children.
I don't, I don't. It's like it's like stand up comedy.
Most stand up comedians don't want kids at their shows. Now,
there are some comedians who make comedy that will be
suitable for children. Yes, there are some comedians who make

(23:44):
and it is a very small It is a tiny
group of comedians. It's yeah, there's like three niggas out
there making making comedy for kids. You know what I mean.
But the truth is most comedians don't want to look
down as a fucking kid at their show, and most
ractly in the same way. But when you are, But

(24:05):
then when we interviews, now, even though I don't want
kids at my show, I now have to defend why
kids should be allowed at drag shows, even though I
don't want drugs, even though I don't want kids at
my fucking show. This is crazy, This is and it's
such a sneaky little tactic that they use to So
now I'm defending something that I don't even want. But

(24:26):
I think there are some drag artists who are completely
appropriate for children. I'm not one of them. That's why
I don't have kids at my shows.

Speaker 1 (24:32):
Okay, so then if the kid angle is to smoke screen,
what do you think is the real reasons for the legislation.

Speaker 3 (24:38):
Transphobia, transphobia, and misogyny and trans misogyny. It is all
just thinly veiled homophobia, transphobia, and attempts to push trans
people into non existence. First, they don't want trans people
in the bathrooms, So now now you can't use bathroom
unless you're at home. You have to wait till you
go home to use the bathroom, which is bullshit. We've

(24:59):
all had to rush to use the bathroom somewhere, running
to somewhere, use the bathroom real quick. And then they say, well,
you can't mention any of it at school if you're
if you're trans at school, you better be hiding. So
now if you're a teacher, if you're a student, if
you're if you're a principal, if you're a janitor, you
cannot mention that you're trends or even that you know
trans people because of the things like they don't say
gay bill, And now they don't want you to be
able to be to work anywhere. They're trying to just
push you back into hiding in a closet because because

(25:22):
they don't want to see you in public at all,
and it starts with the bathroom, they push you out
of the classroom. They push you out of this, they
push you out of that, they push you out of that,
and by the day, by the time they push you
out of all these places in spaces, you are just
existing in your home so they don't have to see you.

Speaker 1 (25:36):
The right also, now this whole idea about the grooming
part of it, a lot of these bills are around,
Like originally it was the bathroom. They're gonna try and
get you in the bathroom. Oh that didn't work, Okay,
Well they trying to turn your kids.

Speaker 3 (25:53):
And no one of them let me turn out. The
most the most dangerous thing that could happen at a
drag show is a conservative might show up with a
gun and kill someone. It's not the drag wings. It's
not that people coming to see the drag wing. The dangerous,
most danger thing at a gay bar is that a
conservative might show up with a gun and fucking kill you.

Speaker 1 (26:11):
It's needless to say this type of rhetoric from the politicians,
from from the right wing incites a degree of violence
against this community. Like even just this year, I think
I got the stats right, as over one hundred and
twenty protests and significant threats in forty seven States so
far this year, just against LGBTQ and drag events this year.

(26:33):
What is the response to that from the drag community.
Is it just security? Like what can you do to
continue to foster a safe environment where people can be themselves?

Speaker 3 (26:45):
Well, I think that you know when things happen like
what like what happened in this recent shooting in this
in the in the in the gay club recently, and
in the walmart Colorado Springs, the Colorado Springs and in
that walmart, they call them the shooting, but they don't
call them terrorists. Don't know why they never get they
never get labled as terrorists. It is terror, it's domestic terror.
Is an attempt to scare you out of out of

(27:06):
leaving your home again. Remember the whole goes to get
you to stay away so they never have to see you.
You can't even go hang out in spots, spaces that
are just for you. Now. They want you to just
hang out just in your home, go away, never be
seen out in public ever anywhere. And the guy who
did the shoot in Colorado Springs, you know, his dad
came forward and is saying stuff like I'm just so
glad to find that he's not gay. When I heard

(27:26):
he was in a gay club, I was just met
that he I thought he was going to be gay.
It's like, you're not worre that your son killed five
people allegedly, you're mad that he might have been gay
in the process. Like, baby, get your get your priorities together.
And you know, drag artists are not going anywhere. So
I hate to break the news, see Mary, but drag
has been around for a very long time before anyone

(27:49):
who's alive now has been breathing. Drag has been around
for a very very very long time. Gender benning has
been around for a very long time. Trans people have
been around for a very very long time, and and
we're not going anywhere anytime soon.

Speaker 1 (28:03):
You have given us more than enough of your time.
The show is We're here. You can see that on
HBO HBO Max Bob the Drag Queen. Thank you for
going beyond the scenes with us.

Speaker 3 (28:15):
My pleasure, and please check out Roy and his new
drag wear and his new drag name beyond the scenes.

Speaker 1 (28:22):
After the break, I'll be joined by guests Channing, Joseph
and Frank DeCaro, who will give us some insight into
the origins and history of drag. We'll be right back.
Welcome back to Beyond the Scenes. Now. I just chatted
with Bob the Drag Queen about his personal journey and
the importance of representation on screen and all of the
attacks that conservatives have on drag and that entire culture.

(28:45):
But now let's talk about the long history of drag.
I'm joined now by two guests who are gonna help
break this down for us. First, I'm joined by journalists
and professor of journalism at Princeton University Channing Joseph Channing.
Welcome to the show.

Speaker 2 (29:01):
Great to be here, Roy, thanks for having me.

Speaker 1 (29:04):
Might I add Channing, your headphones are stunning.

Speaker 2 (29:09):
Thank you.

Speaker 1 (29:09):
I'm also joined by the author of drag Combing through
the Big Wigs of show business, Frank DeCaro. Frank, how
you doing. Thank you for joining us as well.

Speaker 2 (29:18):
Thank you for having me. It's such a pleasure to
be here.

Speaker 1 (29:21):
Now this question is for both of you, but Frank,
I'll throw it to you first. Give us an overview
of the origins of drag and just where the term
drag comes from. Let's just start with the basics.

Speaker 5 (29:31):
Well, a lot of times they say that the word
drag comes from a woman's clothes dragging on the ground.
I don't know if I believe that, and hopefully Channing
as a better perspective on that, but I will say
that as long as a guy has been on the stage,
and as long as being on a stage or being
in public has been popular entertainment and drawn a crowd,

(29:53):
somebody has been cross dressing.

Speaker 2 (29:55):
To use the oldest possible term.

Speaker 5 (29:56):
You can think of for that, Shakespearean tradition has men
playing female roles.

Speaker 2 (30:02):
Kabooki tradition has that.

Speaker 5 (30:05):
The English pantomimes, which still exists today every holiday season
has the pantomime dame in it. There's always was someone dressing,
either a man dressing as a woman or a woman
dressing as a man when we were thinking in the
most binary of terms, but that's.

Speaker 2 (30:21):
Always been a part of entertainment.

Speaker 5 (30:23):
And the drag queen, let's say that the sort of
multi media drag queen has existed at least since the
early twentieth century, and perhaps even before. There's evidence now
that the first drag queen may have been a freed
enslave person. And that's a whole other thing that we're

(30:44):
all looking at now and wondering more about.

Speaker 3 (30:47):
But there was a.

Speaker 5 (30:48):
Guy in the early in the teens, about nineteen twelve
who got his own Broadway theater named after him, and
he was one of the highest paid entertainers and business
named Julian Eltinge. And everyone kind of looks at Juillian
Eltingch as sort of the grandmother of the mall because
she was kind of the rude Paul of nineteen twelve.

(31:09):
She had a magazine to give women tips on how
to look beautiful. She was in movies playing you know,
a spy who goes behind enemy lines dressed as a woman.
She was on Broadway doing singing her own songs in
drag and was hugely popular. And so anyone that says

(31:30):
drag is sort of a new phenomenon is.

Speaker 2 (31:33):
Really speaking untruth.

Speaker 5 (31:35):
There's a popular meme going around now that says, if
you know that, you've always been entertained by drag, And
then they show of course Tutsi and Bosom Buddies and
some like it hot every movie that we've ever seen
in the twentieth century with dragon it and so like,
you can't say, oh my god, these drag queens are
so dangerous when you've been laughing at them for one

(31:58):
hundred years plus.

Speaker 1 (32:00):
Fill in some of the gaps there, like in that
old school sense, because you know, I know there was
also a time where women weren't allowed to Could you
believe that women wasn't allowed at a time to do
a thing and men had to take on the roles
of women in theater because we just did. We don't
know where to find in it women act us. I

(32:20):
guess I'll put on some lipstick.

Speaker 2 (32:22):
Absolutely.

Speaker 1 (32:23):
So.

Speaker 6 (32:23):
One of the things that most people don't realize is
that the way we use the term drag today is
very loose. We're thinking, as Frank pointed out, in binary terms,
a man dressing as a woman, woman dressing as a man,
and it's sort of applied indiscriminately. Whether we're talking about,
as Frank pointed out, Shakespearean theater or kabuki.

Speaker 2 (32:48):
We're talking we're calling it.

Speaker 6 (32:50):
Drag when those are actually separate traditions, and it's important,
I think, to specify the specific differences between those cultural
cultural traditions. There's actually an American tradition of drag which
does go back to the culture of African Americans formerly
enslaved African Americans in Washington, d C. In the eighteen eighties,

(33:14):
and from that point to today we can we can
trace the origin of the ballroom culture and voguing and
all the way to Roupaul's drag Race. It's sort of
has maintained the same basic format in terms of basically
a competition where queer black people meet and celebrate, celebrate

(33:36):
each other and compete for the prize. But back then,
the first drag queen was named William Dorsey Swan and
the culture of d C after the Civil War there
was this so there was this tradition of celebrating freedom.
Of course, you're now free, you're no longer enslaved, celebrate.

Speaker 2 (33:55):
Your life up. Yeah, yeah, and how I turned.

Speaker 6 (33:59):
Out absolutely and in that in that period of time,
one of the big ways that celebrated was to what
was to have a parade called Emancipation Day. Emancipation Day
in DC. There were these beautiful women who would who
would essentially wear these uh usually flower covered dresses or

(34:23):
or crowns, and they be part of the parade. They'd
represent the embodiment the personification of liberty for black people,
and they were called queens. The first drag queen, William
Dorsey Swan actually dubbs himself the first drag queen because
the balls were already being called drag drag balls, or
drag parties or drag dances or just drags. But he

(34:46):
decided to say, I am the queen of this ball.
So actually adopting the term queen is a way of
connecting the sort of celebration of queerness with emancipation from enslavement.
It's actually there's always been this connection in the United

(35:07):
States context between African American emancipation and drag, which is
not something that people talk about. So that's something that
that I like to point out because as we know,
so this day, there's all there's there's lots of discussion
about drag queens misappropriating or arrogating to themselves, you know,

(35:30):
various aspects of black culture or black women's expression. And
actually that's been, that's been, that's been dating back over
one hundred years.

Speaker 1 (35:42):
You've cracked a can on something that I want to
that I want to go back to for a second,
because I want to talk about some of the common
misconceptions and stereotypes about drag that you wish layman like
myself were a little more informed on and Frank I
want to get your answer to this as well. But
first let's go back to the distinction between cross dressing
and drag. I'm from alib and I worked on the

(36:02):
side of town that was the more free, willing side
of Birmingham called Five Points South, and that was my
first introduction as a teenager and to every other culture,
from scape culture to gay culture, to tattoos and those
so everybody was just called a cross dresser. This is
Birmingham in the eighties. There was not the level of
specificity and understanding that we have now. So let's just

(36:24):
start with cross dressing and drag and what the differences
are there, and then what are some of the other
misconceptions you think people get wrong about their culture.

Speaker 6 (36:31):
I think cross dressing it has been a pejorative term,
but it is a descriptive term, and it describes a
sort of conception of a man taking on a woman's
woman's appearance, and it actually applies to different kinds of
pro stressing. It applies to African traditions and kabuki and

(36:53):
Shakespeare theater. All those really could be described as cross dressing,
whereas drag is more at least now it's more of
a celebration of gender expression, and I think breaking out
of gender roles, right. I think if you look at,
for example, Shakespeare in Theater, for whatever reason, they didn't

(37:14):
have win for throws. It wasn't about It wasn't a
decision based on self expression or desire to explore, explo
your gender, explore the ways of how you want to
see yourself right, or how you see yourself. It was
it was more sort of there were other reasons why
men were dressing is wearing dresses and so on, where

(37:37):
Dragon is more of a celebration.

Speaker 1 (37:39):
Okay, like Martin Lawrence dressing up as Shane was not
Martin identifyed with his own gender and expression. It was
just now I'm gonna put on a wig and some
lipstick and crack some jokes.

Speaker 6 (37:50):
At least not not as far as we know.

Speaker 5 (37:57):
Well there, you know, before that was someone like Flip Wilson.
And while it was done, you know in prime time
he Flip Wilson For people who don't know, he was
the first African American comedian performer to have his own
variety show.

Speaker 2 (38:14):
That was a hit.

Speaker 5 (38:15):
I mean there were others who had who had done
specials and who had done short things, but Flip was
on for like four years. And his drag character, yeah,
he was friendly and a storyteller, but he was He
would do this character named Geraldine Jones who had a
boyfriend named Killer, but that never stopped her from flirting
with every man from and I'm not kidding Bill Cosby

(38:38):
to Oj Simpson to Bing Crosby. Okay, he was hugely popular.
But what he did that was so different from Shane
Nay was he played a character who believed she was
beautiful and kind of was sexy and was sort of
a feminist character.

Speaker 2 (38:59):
And people flipped out over that in.

Speaker 5 (39:01):
Terms of they liked it, but also because it really
was different. She wore poocy print dresses, she had great gams.
She was kind of the person who influenced Drew Paul
in many ways, and Ru admits that who's my agent?

Speaker 2 (39:14):
So you know, I mean it was.

Speaker 5 (39:17):
You know, she was watching the same TV I was watching,
and Whip kind of was the introduction to drag for
a lot of people. What's different and what's important about him,
and it goes to the misconceptions about drag is he
was not.

Speaker 2 (39:32):
Making fun of women at all.

Speaker 5 (39:34):
And I think that some people want to say that, oh,
drag is misogynist, and some of it when it's played
like look how ugly I am. And every comedian is
guilty of doing that at some point. But he A
lot of drag comes out of an appreciation for female
tropes and for female characteristics, but then it exaggerates them

(39:59):
to a rabbit proportions, you know, I mean it's it's
nobody really look, no woman really looks like Bianca del
Rio unless she's in Drag two, you know. I mean
it's like and now Channing as you know, you could
be a cist gender woman, you can be assist gender,
you can be any, you can come out of the
womb whatever. But if you've got too much fabulous, you

(40:19):
could be a drag queed now. And and it doesn't
matter what your plumbing looks like, and thank Heaven for
as long as when that light goes on you're funny
and glamorous. It doesn't matter what your junk looks like.
And that's kind of an exciting thing.

Speaker 2 (40:30):
I think.

Speaker 6 (40:32):
I think that's fabulous, and I I agree with with
Frank that, you know, performance performers like like Flip Wilson
were really important and I think, you know, looking at
looking at that aspect of drag like the performative aspect.
It hasn't always been performance for like a public audience.
That's one point which I'll get to. But the the

(40:54):
the important point I think is performers performers is like
Gerlene Jones, they were important becau because I think they
were part of you know, at least for a couple
of decades of the beginning of the twentieth century, when
drag balls sort of became more open to the public.
They were a way of showing, i think, straight to

(41:17):
gender people, how fabulous you could be, you know, how
fabulous a man could be wearing heels and wearing a
wig and so on. That it wasn't purely about comedy.
It was also about showing confidence and showing sort of
just bending a little bit the expectations of gender roles.

(41:39):
And now I think, you know, they're completely bent, which
I think is a positive thing. But but I think
you know, when if you look back, for example, the
nineteenth century balls, the balls from the eighteen eighties, those
were secret events. Those are people getting together in each
other's houses, putting on a show for each other.

Speaker 2 (42:01):
It was a community thing.

Speaker 6 (42:02):
It only really became a sort of a thing that
the general public was allowed into in the in the
twenties or so. And at that point people were really
you know, people were interested to see that there were
thousands of people would gather to see drag balls because
there was such hunger for it. And I guess, you know,

(42:23):
it's still the same way. People are hungry to see
how gender can be reinterpreted and expressed in different ways
that they have been.

Speaker 2 (42:30):
Taught were wrong or immoral and so on. I certainly
was taught that.

Speaker 5 (42:36):
I think that's what gets to why people love drag
is through the artifice you get to this tremendous truth
about humanity and you all. But it's also incredibly entertaining.
It's not like a lesson engender studies. It's it's sort
of already is, but it's sort of talk about the
spoonful of shirtar that makes the medicine go down. It's

(42:56):
really entertaining, and you're like, oh, wait a minute.

Speaker 2 (42:59):
We're not all, well, you know, there is.

Speaker 5 (43:02):
It's showing you the spectrum of gender in a way
and and you're you know, but in a safe way.
And not only was were drag balls a safe space.
But you had people like Milton Burrell, who was the
fought you know, he's mister Television when they turned the
TVs on, he was the guy that got people to
buy TV and he did drag almost every week, and

(43:22):
he said, oh yeah, you wan as a kid, I'd sneak.

Speaker 2 (43:24):
Into the drag balls. And so you're sort of like,
wait a minute.

Speaker 5 (43:27):
So you're twelve or fifteen and you're you know, you're
sneaking into drag balls, you know, and typically you know, stealing,
you know, as as so much entertainment is, it's sort
of like, oh good, I'll get the gig because I'm
the white guy. But but I'll go learn everything you
know from from the black performers, as so many people
do and did.

Speaker 1 (43:47):
So when you talk about researching for your book and channing,
you low key being very humble because I know a
lot of that Swan research that we even know now
in the zeitgeist is because you went to dig in
and all of this about that person that about ten
fifteen years ago you went big. So both of you
are very verse in the history of drag. But in

(44:10):
your research of the history of this culture, how does
the black and LGBTQ plus community fit into that history.
I know we talked a little bit about DC, but
give me some other ways where they fit into that
culture or if there's been erasure.

Speaker 6 (44:25):
Well, I think that one of the one important thing
to point out is, you know, and just to piggyback
from off of what Frank was saying, drag balls have
been a safe place for lots of people to express
themselves and to be seen and to.

Speaker 2 (44:42):
Meet each other and to make connections and so on.
But they've also been really dangerous for a lot of
folks too, you know, over and over again throughout history,
particularly I mean certainly in the early twentieth century and
in the nineteenth century, drag balls were constantly surveiled and

(45:02):
raided by the police, and people were thrown in jail,
oftentimes on really trumped up charges or or just no charges.

Speaker 6 (45:10):
We just felt we just think you're a suspicious person.
We're gonna throw you in jail because you're you're a
man wearing a dress. So it's the the the safety
part is also the other side of it is that
it's been a really dangerous thing people have people have
felt a need to express themselves in this particular way,
and the authorities have always looked at it as a

(45:35):
sort of dangerous thing. And in the in Swan's era,
one time he was arrested and thrown in jail, and
the prosecutor, you know, sort of admitted in the prosecution
documents of the prosecutor admitted, well, typically we wouldn't we
wouldn't send send send Swan to you know, prison for

(45:56):
what we what we charged him with, which was keeping
a disorderly house, which is something usually something to do with.

Speaker 2 (46:01):
Prostitution, sex work.

Speaker 6 (46:03):
But he said, we're trying to keep him off the
streets because of his quote evil example to the community.
And and essentially says, you know, because because he is
involved with with sex with other men. So the authorities
looked at Swans drag balls. This is Swan the Queen

(46:23):
of drag, Swan's dragon balls, as as as something that
people found so alluring that they want to copy, because
that's why he was an equal an evil example to the.

Speaker 1 (46:33):
Community, the community which you're going.

Speaker 2 (46:37):
To pull the community.

Speaker 6 (46:39):
And and and that is exactly what we're seeing today
with with with many many politicians and and other and
other other folks you know, protesting drag drag, drag brunches
and drag story time and protesting, you know, discussions of
of being traned and schools, and it's it's a similar

(47:04):
kind of it's you know, it's it's it is the
same kind of you know, policing literally policing and also
culturally policing the ways that we express ourselves and who
we are.

Speaker 2 (47:16):
If you don't fit into those roles.

Speaker 6 (47:18):
It's considered dangerous and and we're and the strange cys
people are so really scared that that their kids are
going to be queer like us.

Speaker 1 (47:28):
So then when we talk about that activism and that
resistance culture within this community, Frank, let's go back fifty
years ago to Stonewall in New York City and talk
a little bit about that as being a bit of
a pivot point in terms of drag becoming a little
more mainstream or a little more in the face of people,
because it merged perfectly with the emergence of disco music

(47:51):
as well.

Speaker 2 (47:53):
So yeah, exactly. Well it's interesting to me because I.

Speaker 1 (47:56):
Have that I'm going on disco gay. I'm just saying
that you can yeh that shiit no matter what your
orientation is. Some good ass music, keep going for it.

Speaker 5 (48:05):
No, I was, you could say to my next book
is about the history of disco.

Speaker 7 (48:09):
So yes, it was, but it's it'll be my take
on it, you know. And then and then Channing, you
do the actual study of this stuff.

Speaker 2 (48:19):
I'll do the here's the buffet.

Speaker 7 (48:22):
Of the glitter, and then you serve the entree of
the meat potatoes and showing what they know.

Speaker 2 (48:27):
Oh no, I just make the dessert least.

Speaker 5 (48:33):
Yes, you can do anything you want.

Speaker 2 (48:36):
I was gonna say that the Stonewall for people who don't.

Speaker 5 (48:39):
I mean, more people know now than used too, but
there are a lot of people who still go what
is that?

Speaker 2 (48:42):
Stoneall?

Speaker 5 (48:43):
Was the turning point where in the beginning of the
gay rights movement in America.

Speaker 2 (48:47):
Uh.

Speaker 5 (48:47):
And there were things before that, the Black Cat and
Compton's uh cafeteria out in California, But shone Wall was
the moment in nineteen sixty nine where gays fought back.
And despite what some mainstream movies will tell you, it
was not the cute little white kid from the Midwest
who was throwing bricks. It was trans people who didn't

(49:08):
even call themselves that. They call themselves transvestites and activists
not even trans people really, but it was people like
Marsha P. Johnson, Sylvia Rivera and uh that Stormy Delarbrary
that was then. I was like, channing, help me. These
the dragon king who was of all Stormy Delarbrary. They

(49:30):
were the ones who were doing it.

Speaker 2 (49:31):
And honestly, with any movement, the people who have.

Speaker 5 (49:39):
The least and the most to lose at the same
time are the ones who are the bravest, the ones
who don't fit in the closet and also are like,
I'm not going in there. I've seen how dark it
is in the closet.

Speaker 2 (49:53):
It stinks. I'm not going to be in there. But
the ones who.

Speaker 5 (49:57):
Really uh you know, who can't hide, often tend to
be the people who wouldn't hide even if they could.
They tend to that personality type of oh no, I'm
not taking I'm not a second class ofizen. Look at me,
I'm fabulous, you know, And they're they're wearing their their
look on the street. Those are the ones who went

(50:17):
often are the bravest and the tough And that's my
when some of you know, with what's going on now,
you're sort of like.

Speaker 2 (50:23):
I won't pick on the drag queen if fire, you know,
that's what that's like.

Speaker 5 (50:27):
You know, it's like if you're going to go you know,
I wouldn't heckle the insult comic.

Speaker 2 (50:30):
You know, it's a it's sort of they'll they'll shushkebob you.

Speaker 5 (50:34):
You know, it's sort of it's like you think you're
picking on the weak one, but it's like they could
outrun you. They could outrun you in platform meals, you know,
and and and then take one off and beat the
crap out of you with it.

Speaker 7 (50:44):
You know.

Speaker 5 (50:44):
They these are tough people, and yet they look so
glamorous and so beautiful while they're doing it. But I
think that that was what happened at Stonewall, was the
ones throwing the bricks at first were and and then
forming a kick line. Is that And I'm going to
use the word gay the I like to use it
as if it's a great thing, the greatest thing you
could say, what's the gayest? They formed a kick line

(51:06):
in the street, so they're doing a rockhead number against
the police. That is the gayest thing you can possibly do.
And yet it's sort of like the number it's not
only gorgeous legs that's like twenty middle fingers, you know.

Speaker 2 (51:20):
I mean, it's just it is the ultimate. It's like, oh,
you want us to be gay.

Speaker 1 (51:25):
A brick the police would have rather a brick be thrown.

Speaker 5 (51:28):
At the because how do you react to that if
you're sort of like, oh, yeah, you're gonna we're gonna
get arrested.

Speaker 2 (51:33):
But well if I go, I'm gonna at least look
good doing it.

Speaker 5 (51:35):
And then you start a kick line that that to
me is the gayest, most powerful thing. It's sort of like, oh,
I'll show you. And that's why I mean, drag today
is leading the cultural conversation, but I honestly the Republicans
want to shut it down, and the proud pises are like,
you know.

Speaker 2 (51:52):
Who you're taking on.

Speaker 5 (51:53):
It's like these these people do these are not mincing
f words, you know, I mean, you know they these
queens will kick your ay, they'll clean your clock, you know.
I mean they know how to do it because they've
been threatened from the moment they came out of the
closet or emerge from the wound.

Speaker 1 (52:11):
Perhaps, so when we talk about the middle fingers to
the authorities then versus the middle fingers to politicians, now
and a lot of the policies that are starting to
be passed to suppress this type of culture. I don't
think you're gonna be able to legislate out anything that
has real influence on society. Talk to me a little bit,

(52:34):
and Channing, I'll start with you. Talk to me a
little bit about the influence that drag has had on
beauty and fashion. I already talked to Bob about television,
but let's talk about pop culture and just general beauty
and fashion and the way drag has influenced that. Even
music Hill.

Speaker 6 (52:49):
You know, the first thought that I had when you
ask the question is Beyonce, of course, you know, and
her latest album Renaissance. There are many references to balls
and to you know, the category is and tends across
the board. And if you're listen to the lyrics of
the songs like like Alien Superstar and like heat It,

(53:10):
and so it sort of shows that like an artist
at that at that level is engaging with with drag
of bad culture, history of drag culture, and as well
as I think I think drag as as an influence
on beauty has just made it more okay to experiment

(53:31):
with you know, makeup, with with different forms of attire
for all people. Right, it's made it okay for men
to be a little more fem and more fabulous, and
it's made it okay for women.

Speaker 2 (53:44):
To be much more vibulous if they want.

Speaker 1 (53:49):
Is drag. The reason why I have like you wearing
avocado mask at nights some night, so like is that
the reason why the word x foliate?

Speaker 6 (53:58):
You could probably you can probably do thesis drawing the
line between those.

Speaker 5 (54:05):
When RuPaul got the mac Cosmetics uh gig in the
in the early nineties, that was shocking to a lot
of people. A lot of this stuff was shocking back
and now it takes a lot to shock anybody. But
back in the day, when RuPaul is suddenly like, oh wait,
look you know what, I'm going to be the spokesmodel
for Viva Glound.

Speaker 2 (54:26):
And she looked gorgeous. You know, the drag boss has left.

Speaker 5 (54:30):
You just got to get on it, to stand in
the way or try to fight it will ultimately be unsuccessful.
And it's also shortsighted because it's sort of do you
you really?

Speaker 2 (54:40):
The upsetting thing.

Speaker 5 (54:41):
To me when people protest drag meat Story Hour, it's
like so that that those little kids that feel different
for whatever reason, and like Sparkle, whether whatever their gender,
they don't get the same treat They don't get to
be happy, they don't get to see someone in a book.

Speaker 2 (54:56):
They don't.

Speaker 5 (54:57):
You know, it's very upsetting to me that to stee
lives being threatened, drag lives and gay lives, queer lives
being threatened when it's preposter you know, if drag beans
are groomers, it's like, well, they're not groomers. They're hairstylists,
they're makeup artists, they're not they're not groomers in the

(55:17):
in the pedophile sense. They're groomers, and that's your nails
will look fabulous.

Speaker 2 (55:21):
By the end of it, you know, I mean, get stupid.
It's just a dumb.

Speaker 5 (55:26):
Argument to say they're groomers. It's like, yeah, that's that's
why people do drag. It's like, no, that's why clowns
become clowns and as space and then eat you or whatever.

Speaker 2 (55:36):
Clowns do you know?

Speaker 6 (55:38):
Those two different people, two different people. I think queer
folks are still a minority, but we're just a powerful,
influential minority because of because of how badass we are.
You know, uh, I always I always say in ys nine,
still won't happen. It was sort of a surprise to

(55:59):
people that suddenly that where folks could fight back, and
the reality is there there was all kinds of unseen,
invisible work that had to get done to build a
community that felt confident enough to fight back. So there
was decades of work behind behind that decision to fight

(56:20):
back on that day. And now we've had another fifty
years of organizing age at the point where we're like,
there's no way we're not We're not going back in
the closet. We're not going to go back backwards. So, yes,
they're protesting, but we're we're not only a cultural force,
we're just too I think, too powerful to organized a community. Now,

(56:42):
it doesn't make sense, it's it's irrational to go against us.

Speaker 1 (56:48):
What do you all think the future of drag It's like,
where does this go? Because it's this small ball, this
pebble was rolling down the hill and now it's a
big boulder. Where does this go next? How soon to
the drag president? Is what I'm asking.

Speaker 2 (57:04):
Ah, Oh, that's a great one.

Speaker 5 (57:10):
When we have to give goody do we have to
give Giuliani credit?

Speaker 2 (57:14):
For dressing in drag as. I hope not. I don't
because he was an ugly drag bean that was an
ugly drag me from everywhere.

Speaker 5 (57:26):
Yeah, it's hard to get mascara out of here, but
he managed to do it. I think it's gonna look like, uh,
just just this amazing buffet of talent.

Speaker 2 (57:39):
I think that it's going to come down to how
good are you at it? Not what you know. Whether
your dress is a man.

Speaker 5 (57:45):
Or a woman, or a horror icon where you're covered
in blood or you're covered in sequence.

Speaker 2 (57:51):
I think it can be anything.

Speaker 5 (57:52):
I think, uh, it's drag kids who are so cool
with themselves at eight or ten that they're they're they're
dressing in drag as and performing. Not just oh mommy,
I feel different, but they're really like, oh, I'm going
to be fearsome, go do this. And you know the
thing that the moment in my life when I realized

(58:13):
stuff was changing was when I was speaking to a
group of young people and I said, well, I came
out when I was sixteen in nineteen seventy eight, and
the kids said why did you wait so long? And
I was like, oh my god, things have really changed sixteen.
I was like in the advanced placement program for k
and when it was late seventies, it was like, you know,

(58:35):
you know what, you're gay or I own forever.

Speaker 2 (58:38):
Of course I'm a gay, you know. And I think
the future.

Speaker 5 (58:41):
Of drag is is going to be gorgeous and fabulous
and diverse. That's one of the best things about drag too.
I didn't say this before. You know, people are always
saying we have to in entertainment, we have to strive
for diversity. With drag, all you have to do is
tell the truth, if you know. And maybe it's that
way with everything, but if you just show who was

(59:02):
doing cool stuff, you don't have to go looking for
diversity because it's all there in your face. It's gorgeous,
It's like something everybody was participating it in their own
wonderful way, so it's not forced in any way. Just
get out there and tell the truth and you'll have
people of every background and color and creed and.

Speaker 2 (59:23):
Sequin type.

Speaker 1 (59:25):
You know, Jenny, what's it look like to you?

Speaker 2 (59:29):
I think drag is a huge factor in.

Speaker 6 (59:36):
What will become a complete transformation of how we think
about sex and gender in the future and how we
talk about sex and gender, how we think about it
will has already completely changed, right, but in the future
it will be so core to who we are to
talk about diversity of being a non binary or trans,

(59:57):
or the diversity of gender expression, all those. You know,
we'll have new words for it, because the words always change,
right I think, but it will be completely transformed. One
of the things I think that most people sort of
don't think about realize is like, it's not just the
thing you used to be old words and now we
have cool words. Like in Swan's time, it was you know,

(01:00:20):
you were a queen or you weren't. It was about
what you were Actually it was about whether you were
participating in balls or not, whether you were winning the balls,
whether you were a queen, and then later you were
you know, uh, other scholars talk about like what whether
you were a fairy or a pansy. And then sort
of after World War Two it became this homosexual heterosexual slicing.

(01:00:42):
And now we're you know, now we're much more diverse
in terms of being pan or fluid, and everybody's so
becoming more exactly non binary, transgender, queer, gender fluid. We
have so many more options, and I think in the
future we will either have many more options than that,
or it will just be so part of who we

(01:01:03):
are that it becomes irrelevant in a sort of way.
And it's important, I think, just to realize that we're
strong enough to get through this and we will, and
no matter what they do, all of the way we
think about about our gender and our and our sexuality

(01:01:24):
will completely transform.

Speaker 3 (01:01:26):
Well.

Speaker 1 (01:01:26):
I hope that the future DRAG does not include more
the ignorance and laws and hatred that your community has
been dealing with. The two of you are on the
spearhead of educating dumb motherfuckers on what the right things
are and how to be more knowledgeable citizens. I thank
you Channing, I thank you Frank, and also shout out

(01:01:48):
to Bob for coming on earlier. That's all the time
we have for today. Play my theme music. Listen to
the Daily Show Beyond the Scenes on Apple Podcasts, the
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