March 23, 2022 • 42 mins
After a spontaneous encounter, the scoop of a lifetime falls into the lap of a Japanese journalist. The surprising friendship that follows reveals much more than just Kim Jong-nam's thoughts on succession. But did his big mouth get him in big trouble?
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:09):
It's September two thousand four, an unusually humid day in Beijing,
and Yoji Comi, a Japanese newspaper journalist, stands in the
first floor lobby of Beijing Capital International Airport, surrounded by
a gaggle of newspaper, radio, and television reporters. Comy is
(00:31):
rail thin with studious classes. As crews set up their
TV cameras and microphones, he anxiously clutches his voice recorder
and a reporter's notebook. The group is waiting for a
North Korean Ministry official to walk through the terminal. He's
arriving today, allegedly for economic talks. Comey scans a sea
(00:54):
of faces floating through the terminal, looking for any sign
of the Deputy Director General, but no luck. Instead, a
TV reporter nudges him and points at a man who
just walked past, remarking how similar he looks to Kim
Jong Nam. It can't be jong Nam himself, can it? This? Again?
(01:15):
Was two thousand four, three years after the Tokyo Disneyland incident.
Nobody outside of North Korea had seen nor heard much
from Kim Jong Nam. Since Comi had to get a
better look the man in question is alone. Pudgy but
cleanly shaven, carrying a small handbag, Comie briskly walks toward
(01:39):
the man, intercepting his path. He clicks his voice recorder
on and then he blurts it out, are you Mr
Kim jong Nam? Almost without hesitation. The man turns, stars
comey in the eye and says that is right. Soon,
a small crowd of journalists is following the mysterious man
(01:59):
who just lane to be King jong Nam. They pelt
him with questions. Why is he here? Is his father
angry with him? Where is he going? Is he really
traveling alone? What do you do? One of them asks?
Kim jong Nam dismisses the question with a wave of
his hands, saying I can't comment. He picks up the pace,
(02:21):
trying to escape. Near the terminal exit, a group of
Chinese men approached the pool of journalists. Comy looks them
up and down and realizes their bodyguards of some type.
They probably came to escort the North Korean prince to
his taxi. The journalists moved outside to the sidewalk where
a carousel of cars await. They badger Chong Nam with
(02:44):
more questions. He bats them away. I don't know. I
don't know. A taxi pulls up and Kim jong Nam
flings the door open. Comey's instincts kicking. He reaches into
his pocket, pulls out a business card and stretches it
toward the door. About five other journalists do the same.
(03:06):
Tonguam smiles, gently takes the cards and says, I will
contact you when I get to Beijing. The door closes
and the taxi rolls off. Days would pass, then weeks
and months, but Comey heard nothing from the Dear Leader's
(03:30):
elusive son. By winter, Comey had practically forgotten what happened
in the Beijing airport. He's a journalist. People promise to
return his messages all the time and then don't. It
doesn't mean anything. And then in early December two thousand four,
(03:50):
Comy turns on his computer and notices an unusual message
written in Hunger, the Korean writing system. The title says greetings.
Comey opens the message, it begins, Hello, this is Kim
jong Nam. I'm even lee. In this episode, the story
(04:17):
of the revealing friendship between a Japanese journalist and Kim
Jong Nam and how when his baby brother took power
it changed everything the leader of North Korea turned out
officials because they proved to be disloyal. There's also potential
security implications, and when it comes to Kim Jong nun's
(04:38):
own life, old totalitarian dictators, by their nature are paranoid.
They white up every morning thinking is this going to
be my last day? This is big brother. In the
early two thousand's, the occasional Kim jong nam sighting was
(04:59):
the closest the media could get to the Kim dynasty.
He was like a socialist sasquatch, a reclusive creature that
lumbered unannounced through airport terminals or city sidewalks, and when
journalists did spot him, like this airport encounter in two
thousand nine, they usually couldn't get much out of him.
(05:25):
I cannot tell. The rare sighting would drive the world
of political gossip into a tailspin, and the more Kim
jong Nam was seen, the more speculation there was about
his activities for the regime, and the more speculation, the
(05:46):
murkier the truth became. It's impossible to say with certainty
what exactly Kim jong nam was doing all that time.
Was he still working for his father or was he
living in endless vacation in Macau. Was he banished from
his homeland where had he simply opted for a more
capitalistic lifestyle. It's unclear, but here's what we do know.
(06:11):
Kim jong Nam may have started living in a villa
outside Beijing, protected behind the walls of a gated community
as early as We also know that around that time
to Nam had a son named Kim hans Hole. We
also know that parenthood didn't stop him from his jet
(06:32):
setting playboy ways. Journalists and intelligence officials kept tabs on
Kim jong Nam's movements thanks to the testimony of girls
working red light districts across Asia who took note of
a portly high roller who devoured sashimi, drained bottles of Hennessy,
and paid good money to spend time with his favorite women.
(06:53):
Intelligence officials verified that this heavy spender was Kim jong
Nam thanks to two tattoos on his back, one of
a tiger, another of a koi fish in the garish
style preferred by the Japanese mafia. Here's Anna Fifield. We
do know that he had some admiration for or lose
(07:14):
ties with the yakuza in Japan and the Chinese triads.
He did have this very elaborate Koi fish tattoo, which
is something often associated with triads and yakuza in Asia.
So suggestions but no smoking gun to say that he
was deeply embedded in the criminal underworld. That's just one
(07:38):
of many rumors. People in Macau claimed to see Kim
jong Nam wasting his days and nights drinking and gambling.
Others speculated that he was still doing work for the regime,
possibly laundering money. Others claimed that he had been completely
cut off. According to five Fields book Words, circular did
(08:00):
that Kim jong Nam's only linked to the regime was
long alcohol fueled phone calls he routinely had with his aunt,
Kim Jong Il's sister. Some suggest he was receiving an
allowance from her husband and his uncle Chang Chong Tech.
Kim jong Nam was extremely close to his uncle Joan
Song Tech, so he was acting as an uncle of
(08:22):
father figure, very close and and advocating for Kim jong
Nam and his interests, and that bond stayed over time
as Kim jong Nam grew up. If true, Kang Song
Tech might have been Kim jong Nam's last saving grace
in the eyes of the regime. Keek was a mover
(08:42):
and shaker, a charismatic statesman in charge of developing North
Korea's financial dealings with China. He flew around the globe
buying up resources for the country's development projects, from coal
mines to construction sites. Some like to call him the
Kim jong Il who goes abroad, and like Kim Jong Nam,
(09:05):
he was an advocate for modernizing North Korea. They both
were proponents of opening up, reforming or improving in North
Korean words, the economy, and following a more Chinese path
of economic liberalization without political change. The difference was Chang
(09:26):
Song Tech was clearly still in Kim Jong Il's inner circle.
He was the Dear Leader's right hand man. Kim Jong Nam,
by all appearances, was not. None of this information was
new to a journalist like Yoji Gomi. He had been
covering North Korea's palace dramas for years, and when he
(09:49):
first saw that message from Kim Jong Nam reach his inbox,
he was skeptical that it was actually the exiled prince
reaching out to him. Comy wanted to confirm the man's
idea entity, so he went for it and replied, would
it be possible to meet and talk. That same day,
Kim jong Nam replied with two emails. Both answers dodged
(10:13):
the question. I am always hard at work for my country.
I apologize for not being able to answer more, wishing
you the best of health. Have a nice weekend, respectfully,
Kim jong Nam. It wasn't much, but Comy's heart raced.
This could become the scoop of a lifetime. The fact
(10:35):
that a member of North Korean royalty had contacted the
media brief as it was, was news in and of itself.
And the fact Hong Nam suggested he was still working
for the regime but in Macau begged a question what
was he doing? Was he a spy? Was he laundering money?
Was he acting as some sort of liaison with the Chinese?
(10:55):
Trying to become like his uncle Chang Song Tech So
Comey paba is to story in the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper.
A few days later. When Kim Jong Nam learned Comey
had published an article about his short email messages, he
wrote again, chiding the journalists for not verifying his identity.
Are you writing up and sending in stories without confirming
(11:17):
that I'm in fact? Kim Jong Nam is that what
you do? But Comey could tell that there was a
smart lurking behind the message, I don't mind your writing
stories based on our communications at all, Comey's mind began
to whirl. Here was a man who knew the ins
and outs of one of the most secretive societies on
(11:38):
the planet. The journalists began cooking up ways to entice
the source into a face to face meeting. Other journalists
receiving Kim jong Nam's messages weren't as enthusiastic. Many were
doubting his identity, and Kim Jong Nam wasn't happy about it.
One day, Comey opened his inbox and found a testy email.
(12:02):
I continued to sense their strong doubts and skepticism about
my true identity. Based on this, I must tell you
that I will terminate all communications with reporters as of today,
wishing you a healthy and fruitful year end and New Year, respectfully.
Self proclaimed Kim jong Numb or person presumed to be
(12:25):
Kim jong Nam. Comey was crestfallen. After two days of
feverish emailing. The biggest scoop of his career had collapsed.
His inbox went silent six years past and then on October. Hello,
(12:52):
this is Kim jong numb. I hear that you are
very knowledgeable about North Korea, and I am willing to
answer any question as you might have. The timing of
(13:22):
Kim jong Nam's email and two thousand and ten was telling.
One month earlier, his father had publicly announced that his
younger half brother, the year old Kim Jong un, would
be the successor. Did Kim jong Nam reach out to
Comy because he was jealous? Was he feeling spurned by
his father? Had the relationship broken down? Was Kim jong
(13:46):
Nam scared HOMEY had to know? Any expert will tell
you the Kim inner circle can be a terrifying place
during a change of leadership. The country has a history
of squashing any and all competition when a new leader
is installed. Here's Michael Madden. It goes all the way
(14:10):
back to the forties, when the Soviets installed Kim John
UN's grandfather, Kim Il sung, into office. After Kim Il
sung was made chairman, splinter groups of pro Soviet and
pro China communists banded together to replace him, arguing that
Kim had failed to follow the Leninist principle of collective leadership.
(14:31):
Like any good guerilla leader Kim Il sung enlisted his
supporters to arrest those who questioned him, and then he starts.
He starts to eliminate people, very very early on in
the regime. As the regime forms ten years later, it
would happen again. A band of Kimil Song's guerrilla comrades
(14:55):
advocated for economic change and attempted to install a new
leader named Pak Kumtung. Kimo Song was familiar with his competitor.
The two men had fought side by side against the Japanese.
They were even friends, but that meant nothing. When pac
(15:15):
threatened the Supreme Leader's power, he and all of his
supporters were purged. Anyone associated with the subversive character would
either be dismissed from their posts or exterminated altogether. And
this has become something of a tradition ever since. It's
(15:36):
just the nature. It's just the nature of the North
Korean political culture that the leader of North Korea turns
out officials because they proved to be disloyal, or that
they proved they might form alternative power centers and take
all of the glory and attention away from the leader.
Kim Jong il would make similar changes when he was installed,
(15:58):
and so too it was expected, would Kim Jong un
forget quaint notions of filial piety, forget the rhetoric of Chu,
forget the propaganda of the personality cult. The Kim regime
is driven largely by one emotion, and one emotion alone, paranoia.
(16:20):
Totalitarian dictators, by their nature, are paranoid the white cap
every morning thinking is this going to be my last day?
Kim Il sung learned this lesson early from the days
his uncle was betrayed by a family friend and from
the factions of ex friends who tried to overturn his
rule in the nineteen fifties. The resulting paranoia would become
(16:43):
the foundation of North Korea's institutions, including its brutal prison
camps or quality so many individuals would say that the
camps have basically come about as a result of having
to deal with population that was considered hostile to the regime.
(17:04):
That again is Dr Sandra Fahey. She's the author of
the book Dying for Rights, which investigates North Korea's human
rights abuses. As she explains, originally North Korea's prison camps
were built to detain Japanese sympathizers and any anti camp sentiment.
When Korea was divided and when the Soviet Union installed
(17:28):
Kim Il sung, the North Koreans needed to make sure
that within the community, within the country, there weren't going
to be individuals who questioned Kimilsung, so those individuals had
to be basically taken away, but the list of potential
offenses would quickly expand. Today, anybody can be sent to
(17:50):
hard labor camp for committing minor crimes such as gossiping
or like one poor journalists found out misspelling the Supreme
leader's name. For North Korea, the threat of a prison
camp is a powerful tool for scaring the populace into
compliance and a way to save money with slave labor.
(18:13):
They wanted to make use of these individuals, so they
make them work, and that's why they didn't just completely
exterminate them. In the camps, political prisoners spend hours a
day mining for coal, gold, or iron. Others are routinely
sent to re education camps for brainwashing, or, as Dr
(18:34):
Fahey calls it, an ideological booster shot. Locals have a
name for this kind of punishment. It's called being sent
to the mountains. That's a heartbreaking detail of life in
North Korea. If you are sent to prison in North Korea,
you enter a whole different realm of human experience. Prison
(18:56):
is not the punishment. Prison is the place where more
punishment happens. Physical torture, sexual abuse, for starvation. Those are
just a few of the things waiting for those in
the North Korean prison camps. The conditions are frankly unspeakable.
About of all prisoners die from malnutrition. Reports claim that
(19:21):
people survive off literal crumbs, sometimes fighting over pucks of
cow dung hoping to find a kernel of corn. And
it's the fate of anybody who dares to threaten the
line of succession or criticize the regime. And that that
was the risk Kim jong Nam was taking when he
(19:43):
started talking to a journalist. Because the camps, they don't discriminate.
Even Kim Jong Nam's uncle, the beloved Chang Song Tech,
the number two leader in the whole country, had been
sent to a re education camp before. If it happened
to him, it could happen to anybody, including Kim jong Nam,
(20:08):
But that didn't stop him. In the weeks after his
little brother was named successor, Kim jong Nam began an
intense digital friendship with the Jikomi. The two would share
more than one hundred and fifty emails. Take your time
to get your questions ready and emailed them to me.
(20:31):
I'll respond as sincerely as I can, and off the
record conversation might be possible, provided that you keep your word.
Six years since their last email, Kim jong Nam no
longer seemed worried about offending the regime. The recent succession
(20:53):
announcement apparently had provoked him and the disdain spilled into
his emails. There has been no precedent for a third
generation dynasty except during the feudal dynasty period. People agree
to the fact that the third generation dynasty does not
comply with socialism either. I also believe that our father,
(21:14):
who was more negative about third generation dynasty than anybody else,
was compelled to carry out the dynastic succession due to
strong internal factors, where North Korean people are used to
believing in following only the so called pick to bloodline.
I personally assumed that some troublesome situations were expected if
(21:35):
a successor outside the bloodline were to appear. The peck
to bloodline, as Kim Jong Nam saw it, the myth
embraced by his grandfather, which had helped solidify the family's rule,
had also trapped them. In a truly communist system, there
would be collective leadership, but for the past sixty years,
(21:58):
the state has sold the North Korean people on the
lie that the true leader must have pure blood, and
now they were boxed in. I think North Korea determined
that even if it were to move towards a collective
leadership system in the future, unless the leaders appointed from
the pict bloodline, it would not be able to maintain
(22:21):
the power elite, and so it carried out the third
generation following the pict bloodline and consideration of North Korea's
internal uniqueness. I am opposed to a third generation dynasty. However,
I said that if there was a need to push
forward the third generation dynasty for the sake of the
internal stability of North Korea, we must comply with it.
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This last part made Comey's ears perk up. Kim Jong
Nam kept vaguely mentioning internal stability and internal factors. Comey
had wanted to know what exactly those internal fact there's were.
Kim Jong Nam did not hold back. This is my
(23:05):
personal view, but when I try to think about how
many of the top officials who assist my father and
the successor in North Korea sincerely care about the livelihood
of the North Korean people. I regret to say there
are not that many. In reality, there are treacherous attendants
who devote themselves to toadyism in order to survive, and
(23:27):
those who solely pursue their own comfort and formed barriers
between the people and the leader by telling lies about
state affairs. I hope such people will be removed from
around my father and the successor. I definitely believe they
will not be beneficial for the development of North Korea
and for the future of the successor. In other words,
(23:49):
Kim Jong Nam knew that his father was surrounded by
sycophants and suck ups, people who are more interested in
their own safety and security than that of regular people.
Comey asked Chong Nam if he ever got to talk
to his father about these problems. Nam's reply, All the time,
(24:09):
I tell him about what I think, frankly, without any
rehearsed script. In the past, I've directly spoken to him
about the concerns of the international community about the nuclear
tests and missile launching tests. Reading these messages, it was
clear to call me that Kim jong Nam was not
an exile at all, but was in fact one of
(24:30):
the few people close to the Supreme Leader and one
of the few people who is actually brave enough to
tell him the truth. The distance gave him some protection,
some latitude to tell his father what he didn't want
to hear. The distance also solidified his feelings that North
(24:50):
Korea had to change. According to my common sense, reform
and liberalization are considered to be essential for a any
economic development. While staying in China for many years, I
have directly witnessed and experienced how China achieved development all
of these statements, These were the types of things that
(25:12):
got people sent to the mountains for a long long time.
But Kim jong Nam knew that if anybody had the
privilege to speak out, it was him, the son of
the dear Leader. His stepmother might try to ruin him,
maybe even his little brother, but his father never Still,
(25:35):
Kim jong Nam had to tread carefully. He weighed his words.
He reiterated that he did not speak for the government.
Whenever he mentioned his father, he spoke reverently. But Kim
jong Nam's fear seemed most palpable. Whenever he mentioned his
little brother, Comey could tell that Chong Nam was measuring
(25:59):
his words. The North Korean people, who only have access
to such propaganda in their life are not likely to
find out how things really are. But it would really
hurt me if the entire world comes to look at
my brother as a villain. I hope that my brother
will become a leader who is renowned among the people
of the same race for his virtues. The journalists and
(26:22):
the prince would exchange messages for twelve weeks, and in
that time, Comey not only got Kim Jong Nam to
open up, he got him to agree to a face
to face on the record interview. On January, Comey arrived
(26:43):
in Macau to meet the eldest son of North Korea's dictator.
Comey arrived with his wife, hoping that traveling in tandem
would help him blending with tourists, you know, look a
little less suspicious. Waiting in a hotel lobby, Comey scanned
the door, waiting for the prince to enter. Then a
(27:05):
man wearing a black jacket walked in his face, obscured
by sunglasses. It was Kim Jong Nam. The men sat down,
made idle chit chat, and Comey turned on his trusty
voice recorder. Then on the record, Kim jong Nam opened up.
(27:28):
He repeated his opposition to a third generation dynasty, arguing
again that until recently his father had been opposed to
the idea as well. He again blamed the power elite
for North Korea's problems. He even blasted his father's recent
attempt at currency reform, calling it a failure. He advocated
(27:50):
for change and name dropped his reformist uncle. I think
the country's trapped in the dilemma. While it is obvious
that his economy will collapse, that does not carry out reform.
Reform could also trigger a collapse of the regime. I
would expect time will pass away as the country remains
in the state of affairs. From what I have heard
(28:11):
on the Mr Changsung text, leadership, North Korea seriously considered
introducing Chinese style reform and liberalization. At the end of
the conversation, Comey asked permission to put everything the two
had talked about in an article. Kim Jong Nam approved,
Comy published it right away. For North Korean's it's risky
(28:54):
to say or publish anything remotely critical about their country,
especially if you've abandoned the regime. Nobody would know that
better than Kim jong Nam's own family. You probably recall
that two of his cousins and his aunt all published
tell All memoirs. One of them would be shot dead,
(29:19):
the others remained in hiding to this day, and Kim
jong Nam clearly already had enemies in the regime long
before he began talking to Yojigomi. In two thousand four,
Kim jong Nam had been visiting Vienna, Austria. There, security
officials purportedly received a tip about a plot to kill him.
(29:43):
According to a source quote, the attempt was made by
anti Kim groups in North Korea. Others, however, suggest that
it could have come from the first family itself. Whoever
it was, the plan was miss seriously thwarted. Then, in
April of two thousand nine, a secret police unit stormed
(30:07):
into the Pyongyang villa that Kim jong Nam used when
visiting North Korea. It's where the firstborn son like to
party and entertain, and when the cops showed up, everyone
in the building was taken away, presumably to the mountains,
but Kim jong Nam wasn't there that day, Kim jong
(30:32):
Nam was becoming paranoid. He began using an old Nokia
phone that couldn't be tracked. He covered the cameras on
his laptop with tape. According to the owner of a
restaurant that Kim jong Nam often visited, the elder Prince
must have carried a device that jam security cameras, because
whenever he came to eat, the CCTV would malfunction. Rumors
(30:55):
began swirling that by the late two thousands, the China
government was offering Kim jong Nam his own security detail
with twenty four hour protection and monitoring. It's this last
measure that's prompted a slew of conspiracy theories. Did China
consider Kim jong Nam as a potential leader? China's number
(31:18):
one consideration when it comes to the Korean peninsula is stability.
They do not want a catastrophic collapse of North Korea
on its fragile northeastern border, so everything they do is
with that in mind. There had been signs for many
years that they had been cultivating Kim jong Nam and
(31:39):
kind of keeping him in reserve in case they needed
to install and China friendly new leader of North Korea.
Why Kim jong Nam and not his uncle Chang Zong
Tech the country's number two. Because he comes from the
Kim family, he has that mythical pek Do blood coursing
(32:00):
through his veins, so it's something that could be easily
sold to the North Korean people. But nobody is certain
if China was protecting Kim jong Nam because he was
a fallback option. It's possible that his father was in
fact paying for the security detail, but soon his father
would be out of the picture, and that's when everything changed.
(32:29):
After his interview with Kim jong Nam, Comey watched his
email for some kind of acknowledgement from his subject. It
had only been a few days since the article came out,
but the silence of his inbox made him anxious. Had
the flood of friendly messages stopped then good evening. The
(32:49):
stories printed in the Tokyo Shimbun last month. In the
second of this month may have aggravated North Korea. I
received this sort of warning from them. Please hold off
on publishing all other articles for the time being. I
hope you understand. In another more ominous email, he followed up,
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I just have to be careful and patient. The exchanges
would continue, but Kim jong nam sprawling tirades against the
regime transformed into terse one or two sentence replies, so
Comey changes tactics. The men found other things to talk about.
(33:32):
When a tsunami struct Japan in eleven, destroying the Fukushimi
Daichi Nuclear power plant, Kim jong Nam sent a message
of sympathy. I'd like to express my deepest condolences to
the disaster victims in your country. The middle aged men
went on to complain to each other about gout and
beer bloat. They talked about the risks of nuclear power plants,
(33:54):
Fukushima still weighing heavily on their minds, with Chong Nam
opining we must protect the planet's ecosystem. After a month
of idle chit chat, the conversation swung back to North Korea,
with Kim jong Nam opening up about his relationship with
his father. The media paint my father is a fearful dictator.
(34:17):
I feel quite bitter about this. Apart from the fact
that he's the head of a nation. I only remember
him as a very affectionate person, though he was sometimes strict.
Week by week, Kim jong Nam became more of his
old self again. It's unclear if the threats had ended,
or if he called their bluff, or if he simply
(34:38):
let his guard down. Regardless, he went on to express
dangerous criticisms that would get most people thrown in a
gulag or worse killed. He called himself a capitalistic young
man and talked about how he had betrayed his father's expectations.
(34:59):
He contemp played at a future where his brother remained
just as stubborn as his father. If my brother is
against the idea of reforms and liberalization, I would like
to question his thoughts and plans for the future of
North Korea. Comey kept the conversation moving, but he wasn't
(35:19):
satisfied with emails. He wanted another face to face meeting,
and after months of cajoling, he convinced Kim Jong Nam
to agree to a second interview in Beijing, but this
time would be different. Comey and Kim Jong Nam never
set a time or date, so Comey arrived in China
(35:44):
and patiently waited for directions from his subject. One day
passed nothing, then another still nothing. Comey sent email after
frantic email, but received no replies. Homey thought he was
being stood up. By a North Korean prince. On the
(36:06):
day before his return flight, A disappointed called me gave up.
He decided to visit some friends and go out to dinner.
He ate seafood and drank wine. He laughed and tried
for a few hours to forget about the meeting and
the big story he had just lost. And then at
(36:29):
ten pm he looked at his phone. There were five
missed calls, all from a Macau area code. Comey's heart raced.
He called the number back but could barely hear. The
noise was distorted. It sounded like there was a crowd
in the background, but he could recognize the faint voice
(36:49):
on the other line. It was Kim Jong Numb and
he wanted to meet Comey jotted down the address. It
was for a swanky Beijing hotel. He grabbed his coat
and his bag, rushed out of the restaurant, and dove
into a taxi. At one in the morning, he hurried
into the hotel, entered an extravagant elevator, and pressed the
(37:10):
button for the top floor. When he stepped off, he
entered a world of luxury and opulence, A room with
high ceilings, deep mahogany fixtures and gilded details, the kind
of place where bartenders and tuxedos served fine liquors to
elegantly dressed patrons who all spoke in hushed tones. At
(37:34):
the corner of the bar amid all this wealth sat
a man in a baseball cap. It was Kim jong Nam.
Hell he made it after all come He doesn't recall
how long the two talked. He never recorded what they said.
The two men did not speak as journalists and subjects.
(37:55):
They talked off the record, this time as friends into whiskey.
According to Comey, Kim jong Nam ordered glass after glass
of high end whiskey. Each time he pulled out a
pocket full of a hundred yuan notes and paid the waiter.
As the night will on, Kim jong Nam turned solemn.
(38:19):
He cradled his glass and stared forlornly at the amber liquid.
Do you think things will be different? Nothing will change,
It's impossible to make change happen. He reached again into
his pocket. Money spilled onto the floor. Kim jong Nam
(38:42):
looked at it for a moment and let it sit.
He never picked it up. For the next seven months,
Kim jong Nam and Yoji called me kept emailing and
in December of the dear leader Kim Jong il would
(39:03):
die A few days later. Homie offered his condolences and
asked if he could turn their emails into a book.
He promised not to publish anything inflammatory, but Kim Jong
Nam hesitated. We remain in mourning for a hundred days
in North Korea. It will not be advantageous for me
(39:24):
if any new information comes out during that period. Please
understand the North Korean regime might attempt to inflict something
to put me in harm's way. But even though he
knew he was at risk, Kim Jong Nam couldn't resist
getting something off his chest. As a matter of common sense,
a power transferred to the third generation is utterly unacceptable.
(39:50):
How can a young successor with only two years of
grooming take over a system of absolute power that has
sustained for the last thirty seven years. I suspect the
power leads that have ruled the country will continue to
be in control while upholding the young successor as a
mere figurehead. I'm sure you'll be hearing a lot of
(40:12):
fiction writing or rumors about me, as well as what
may or may not happen to North Korea's future. I
wish you and your family's good health, respectfully, Kim jong Nam.
It's unclear if Comey would ever hear from Kim jong
Nam again. All we know is that he did what
(40:33):
any journalists would do. He published, and soon Kim jong
Nam would be writing letters to his brother asking him
to please spare his life. I'm the next Big Brother.
The theories about what killed Kim jong Nam get complicated
(40:57):
by money, technology, and the beloved relative who becomes a
canary in the coal mine for the exiled prince. Big
Brother is the production of School of Humans and I
Heart Radio and hosted by me Even Lee. Lucas Riley
(41:22):
is our writer, co director and associate producer. Amelia Brock
is our senior producer, co director and editor. Executive producers
are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, L. C. Crowley, and Jason English.
Our fact checker is Aaron Blakemore. Music composed by Jason
Todd Shannon and Tune Waters. Original score mixed by Vick Stafford.
(41:45):
The bar scene piano rendition of the Big Brother theme
song was performed by Lucas Riley, Audio editing by Jesse
nice Swanger, sound design and mixed by Harper W. Harris,
Audio correction by Josh Fisher, Voice acting by Mark Chung,
Sean mckeek, Mike Coscarelli, Katie Wong, Jason Todd Shannon, and
(42:06):
Amelia Brock. Special thanks to Ryan Murdoch and Will Pearson.
Sound licensed from the Associated Press. A special acknowledgement to
the reporting of Yoji Komi and his book My Father
Kim Jong Il and I, published by Pung Sunju. If
you're enjoying the podcast, help us get the word out
(42:26):
by leaving a rating in your favorite podcast app. Until
next time, I'm even Lee School of Humans.
It's September two thousand four, an unusually humid day in Beijing,
and Yoji Comi, a Japanese newspaper journalist, stands in the
first floor lobby of Beijing Capital International Airport, surrounded by
a gaggle of newspaper, radio, and television reporters. Comy is
(00:31):
rail thin with studious classes. As crews set up their
TV cameras and microphones, he anxiously clutches his voice recorder
and a reporter's notebook. The group is waiting for a
North Korean Ministry official to walk through the terminal. He's
arriving today, allegedly for economic talks. Comey scans a sea
(00:54):
of faces floating through the terminal, looking for any sign
of the Deputy Director General, but no luck. Instead, a
TV reporter nudges him and points at a man who
just walked past, remarking how similar he looks to Kim
Jong Nam. It can't be jong Nam himself, can it? This? Again?
(01:15):
Was two thousand four, three years after the Tokyo Disneyland incident.
Nobody outside of North Korea had seen nor heard much
from Kim Jong Nam. Since Comi had to get a
better look the man in question is alone. Pudgy but
cleanly shaven, carrying a small handbag, Comie briskly walks toward
(01:39):
the man, intercepting his path. He clicks his voice recorder
on and then he blurts it out, are you Mr
Kim jong Nam? Almost without hesitation. The man turns, stars
comey in the eye and says that is right. Soon,
a small crowd of journalists is following the mysterious man
(01:59):
who just lane to be King jong Nam. They pelt
him with questions. Why is he here? Is his father
angry with him? Where is he going? Is he really
traveling alone? What do you do? One of them asks?
Kim jong Nam dismisses the question with a wave of
his hands, saying I can't comment. He picks up the pace,
(02:21):
trying to escape. Near the terminal exit, a group of
Chinese men approached the pool of journalists. Comy looks them
up and down and realizes their bodyguards of some type.
They probably came to escort the North Korean prince to
his taxi. The journalists moved outside to the sidewalk where
a carousel of cars await. They badger Chong Nam with
(02:44):
more questions. He bats them away. I don't know. I
don't know. A taxi pulls up and Kim jong Nam
flings the door open. Comey's instincts kicking. He reaches into
his pocket, pulls out a business card and stretches it
toward the door. About five other journalists do the same.
(03:06):
Tonguam smiles, gently takes the cards and says, I will
contact you when I get to Beijing. The door closes
and the taxi rolls off. Days would pass, then weeks
and months, but Comey heard nothing from the Dear Leader's
(03:30):
elusive son. By winter, Comey had practically forgotten what happened
in the Beijing airport. He's a journalist. People promise to
return his messages all the time and then don't. It
doesn't mean anything. And then in early December two thousand four,
(03:50):
Comy turns on his computer and notices an unusual message
written in Hunger, the Korean writing system. The title says greetings.
Comey opens the message, it begins, Hello, this is Kim
jong Nam. I'm even lee. In this episode, the story
(04:17):
of the revealing friendship between a Japanese journalist and Kim
Jong Nam and how when his baby brother took power
it changed everything the leader of North Korea turned out
officials because they proved to be disloyal. There's also potential
security implications, and when it comes to Kim Jong nun's
(04:38):
own life, old totalitarian dictators, by their nature are paranoid.
They white up every morning thinking is this going to
be my last day? This is big brother. In the
early two thousand's, the occasional Kim jong nam sighting was
(04:59):
the closest the media could get to the Kim dynasty.
He was like a socialist sasquatch, a reclusive creature that
lumbered unannounced through airport terminals or city sidewalks, and when
journalists did spot him, like this airport encounter in two
thousand nine, they usually couldn't get much out of him.
(05:25):
I cannot tell. The rare sighting would drive the world
of political gossip into a tailspin, and the more Kim
jong Nam was seen, the more speculation there was about
his activities for the regime, and the more speculation, the
(05:46):
murkier the truth became. It's impossible to say with certainty
what exactly Kim jong nam was doing all that time.
Was he still working for his father or was he
living in endless vacation in Macau. Was he banished from
his homeland where had he simply opted for a more
capitalistic lifestyle. It's unclear, but here's what we do know.
(06:11):
Kim jong Nam may have started living in a villa
outside Beijing, protected behind the walls of a gated community
as early as We also know that around that time
to Nam had a son named Kim hans Hole. We
also know that parenthood didn't stop him from his jet
(06:32):
setting playboy ways. Journalists and intelligence officials kept tabs on
Kim jong Nam's movements thanks to the testimony of girls
working red light districts across Asia who took note of
a portly high roller who devoured sashimi, drained bottles of Hennessy,
and paid good money to spend time with his favorite women.
(06:53):
Intelligence officials verified that this heavy spender was Kim jong
Nam thanks to two tattoos on his back, one of
a tiger, another of a koi fish in the garish
style preferred by the Japanese mafia. Here's Anna Fifield. We
do know that he had some admiration for or lose
(07:14):
ties with the yakuza in Japan and the Chinese triads.
He did have this very elaborate Koi fish tattoo, which
is something often associated with triads and yakuza in Asia.
So suggestions but no smoking gun to say that he
was deeply embedded in the criminal underworld. That's just one
(07:38):
of many rumors. People in Macau claimed to see Kim
jong Nam wasting his days and nights drinking and gambling.
Others speculated that he was still doing work for the regime,
possibly laundering money. Others claimed that he had been completely
cut off. According to five Fields book Words, circular did
(08:00):
that Kim jong Nam's only linked to the regime was
long alcohol fueled phone calls he routinely had with his aunt,
Kim Jong Il's sister. Some suggest he was receiving an
allowance from her husband and his uncle Chang Chong Tech.
Kim jong Nam was extremely close to his uncle Joan
Song Tech, so he was acting as an uncle of
(08:22):
father figure, very close and and advocating for Kim jong
Nam and his interests, and that bond stayed over time
as Kim jong Nam grew up. If true, Kang Song
Tech might have been Kim jong Nam's last saving grace
in the eyes of the regime. Keek was a mover
(08:42):
and shaker, a charismatic statesman in charge of developing North
Korea's financial dealings with China. He flew around the globe
buying up resources for the country's development projects, from coal
mines to construction sites. Some like to call him the
Kim jong Il who goes abroad, and like Kim Jong Nam,
(09:05):
he was an advocate for modernizing North Korea. They both
were proponents of opening up, reforming or improving in North
Korean words, the economy, and following a more Chinese path
of economic liberalization without political change. The difference was Chang
(09:26):
Song Tech was clearly still in Kim Jong Il's inner circle.
He was the Dear Leader's right hand man. Kim Jong Nam,
by all appearances, was not. None of this information was
new to a journalist like Yoji Gomi. He had been
covering North Korea's palace dramas for years, and when he
(09:49):
first saw that message from Kim Jong Nam reach his inbox,
he was skeptical that it was actually the exiled prince
reaching out to him. Comy wanted to confirm the man's
idea entity, so he went for it and replied, would
it be possible to meet and talk. That same day,
Kim jong Nam replied with two emails. Both answers dodged
(10:13):
the question. I am always hard at work for my country.
I apologize for not being able to answer more, wishing
you the best of health. Have a nice weekend, respectfully,
Kim jong Nam. It wasn't much, but Comy's heart raced.
This could become the scoop of a lifetime. The fact
(10:35):
that a member of North Korean royalty had contacted the
media brief as it was, was news in and of itself.
And the fact Hong Nam suggested he was still working
for the regime but in Macau begged a question what
was he doing? Was he a spy? Was he laundering money?
Was he acting as some sort of liaison with the Chinese?
(10:55):
Trying to become like his uncle Chang Song Tech So
Comey paba is to story in the Tokyo Shimbun newspaper.
A few days later. When Kim Jong Nam learned Comey
had published an article about his short email messages, he
wrote again, chiding the journalists for not verifying his identity.
Are you writing up and sending in stories without confirming
(11:17):
that I'm in fact? Kim Jong Nam is that what
you do? But Comey could tell that there was a
smart lurking behind the message, I don't mind your writing
stories based on our communications at all, Comey's mind began
to whirl. Here was a man who knew the ins
and outs of one of the most secretive societies on
(11:38):
the planet. The journalists began cooking up ways to entice
the source into a face to face meeting. Other journalists
receiving Kim jong Nam's messages weren't as enthusiastic. Many were
doubting his identity, and Kim Jong Nam wasn't happy about it.
One day, Comey opened his inbox and found a testy email.
(12:02):
I continued to sense their strong doubts and skepticism about
my true identity. Based on this, I must tell you
that I will terminate all communications with reporters as of today,
wishing you a healthy and fruitful year end and New Year, respectfully.
Self proclaimed Kim jong Numb or person presumed to be
(12:25):
Kim jong Nam. Comey was crestfallen. After two days of
feverish emailing. The biggest scoop of his career had collapsed.
His inbox went silent six years past and then on October. Hello,
(12:52):
this is Kim jong numb. I hear that you are
very knowledgeable about North Korea, and I am willing to
answer any question as you might have. The timing of
(13:22):
Kim jong Nam's email and two thousand and ten was telling.
One month earlier, his father had publicly announced that his
younger half brother, the year old Kim Jong un, would
be the successor. Did Kim jong Nam reach out to
Comy because he was jealous? Was he feeling spurned by
his father? Had the relationship broken down? Was Kim jong
(13:46):
Nam scared HOMEY had to know? Any expert will tell
you the Kim inner circle can be a terrifying place
during a change of leadership. The country has a history
of squashing any and all competition when a new leader
is installed. Here's Michael Madden. It goes all the way
(14:10):
back to the forties, when the Soviets installed Kim John
UN's grandfather, Kim Il sung, into office. After Kim Il
sung was made chairman, splinter groups of pro Soviet and
pro China communists banded together to replace him, arguing that
Kim had failed to follow the Leninist principle of collective leadership.
(14:31):
Like any good guerilla leader Kim Il sung enlisted his
supporters to arrest those who questioned him, and then he starts.
He starts to eliminate people, very very early on in
the regime. As the regime forms ten years later, it
would happen again. A band of Kimil Song's guerrilla comrades
(14:55):
advocated for economic change and attempted to install a new
leader named Pak Kumtung. Kimo Song was familiar with his competitor.
The two men had fought side by side against the Japanese.
They were even friends, but that meant nothing. When pac
(15:15):
threatened the Supreme Leader's power, he and all of his
supporters were purged. Anyone associated with the subversive character would
either be dismissed from their posts or exterminated altogether. And
this has become something of a tradition ever since. It's
(15:36):
just the nature. It's just the nature of the North
Korean political culture that the leader of North Korea turns
out officials because they proved to be disloyal, or that
they proved they might form alternative power centers and take
all of the glory and attention away from the leader.
Kim Jong il would make similar changes when he was installed,
(15:58):
and so too it was expected, would Kim Jong un
forget quaint notions of filial piety, forget the rhetoric of Chu,
forget the propaganda of the personality cult. The Kim regime
is driven largely by one emotion, and one emotion alone, paranoia.
(16:20):
Totalitarian dictators, by their nature, are paranoid the white cap
every morning thinking is this going to be my last day?
Kim Il sung learned this lesson early from the days
his uncle was betrayed by a family friend and from
the factions of ex friends who tried to overturn his
rule in the nineteen fifties. The resulting paranoia would become
(16:43):
the foundation of North Korea's institutions, including its brutal prison
camps or quality so many individuals would say that the
camps have basically come about as a result of having
to deal with population that was considered hostile to the regime.
(17:04):
That again is Dr Sandra Fahey. She's the author of
the book Dying for Rights, which investigates North Korea's human
rights abuses. As she explains, originally North Korea's prison camps
were built to detain Japanese sympathizers and any anti camp sentiment.
When Korea was divided and when the Soviet Union installed
(17:28):
Kim Il sung, the North Koreans needed to make sure
that within the community, within the country, there weren't going
to be individuals who questioned Kimilsung, so those individuals had
to be basically taken away, but the list of potential
offenses would quickly expand. Today, anybody can be sent to
(17:50):
hard labor camp for committing minor crimes such as gossiping
or like one poor journalists found out misspelling the Supreme
leader's name. For North Korea, the threat of a prison
camp is a powerful tool for scaring the populace into
compliance and a way to save money with slave labor.
(18:13):
They wanted to make use of these individuals, so they
make them work, and that's why they didn't just completely
exterminate them. In the camps, political prisoners spend hours a
day mining for coal, gold, or iron. Others are routinely
sent to re education camps for brainwashing, or, as Dr
(18:34):
Fahey calls it, an ideological booster shot. Locals have a
name for this kind of punishment. It's called being sent
to the mountains. That's a heartbreaking detail of life in
North Korea. If you are sent to prison in North Korea,
you enter a whole different realm of human experience. Prison
(18:56):
is not the punishment. Prison is the place where more
punishment happens. Physical torture, sexual abuse, for starvation. Those are
just a few of the things waiting for those in
the North Korean prison camps. The conditions are frankly unspeakable.
About of all prisoners die from malnutrition. Reports claim that
(19:21):
people survive off literal crumbs, sometimes fighting over pucks of
cow dung hoping to find a kernel of corn. And
it's the fate of anybody who dares to threaten the
line of succession or criticize the regime. And that that
was the risk Kim jong Nam was taking when he
(19:43):
started talking to a journalist. Because the camps, they don't discriminate.
Even Kim Jong Nam's uncle, the beloved Chang Song Tech,
the number two leader in the whole country, had been
sent to a re education camp before. If it happened
to him, it could happen to anybody, including Kim jong Nam,
(20:08):
But that didn't stop him. In the weeks after his
little brother was named successor, Kim jong Nam began an
intense digital friendship with the Jikomi. The two would share
more than one hundred and fifty emails. Take your time
to get your questions ready and emailed them to me.
(20:31):
I'll respond as sincerely as I can, and off the
record conversation might be possible, provided that you keep your word.
Six years since their last email, Kim jong Nam no
longer seemed worried about offending the regime. The recent succession
(20:53):
announcement apparently had provoked him and the disdain spilled into
his emails. There has been no precedent for a third
generation dynasty except during the feudal dynasty period. People agree
to the fact that the third generation dynasty does not
comply with socialism either. I also believe that our father,
(21:14):
who was more negative about third generation dynasty than anybody else,
was compelled to carry out the dynastic succession due to
strong internal factors, where North Korean people are used to
believing in following only the so called pick to bloodline.
I personally assumed that some troublesome situations were expected if
(21:35):
a successor outside the bloodline were to appear. The peck
to bloodline, as Kim Jong Nam saw it, the myth
embraced by his grandfather, which had helped solidify the family's rule,
had also trapped them. In a truly communist system, there
would be collective leadership, but for the past sixty years,
(21:58):
the state has sold the North Korean people on the
lie that the true leader must have pure blood, and
now they were boxed in. I think North Korea determined
that even if it were to move towards a collective
leadership system in the future, unless the leaders appointed from
the pict bloodline, it would not be able to maintain
(22:21):
the power elite, and so it carried out the third
generation following the pict bloodline and consideration of North Korea's
internal uniqueness. I am opposed to a third generation dynasty. However,
I said that if there was a need to push
forward the third generation dynasty for the sake of the
internal stability of North Korea, we must comply with it.
(22:45):
This last part made Comey's ears perk up. Kim Jong
Nam kept vaguely mentioning internal stability and internal factors. Comey
had wanted to know what exactly those internal fact there's were.
Kim Jong Nam did not hold back. This is my
(23:05):
personal view, but when I try to think about how
many of the top officials who assist my father and
the successor in North Korea sincerely care about the livelihood
of the North Korean people. I regret to say there
are not that many. In reality, there are treacherous attendants
who devote themselves to toadyism in order to survive, and
(23:27):
those who solely pursue their own comfort and formed barriers
between the people and the leader by telling lies about
state affairs. I hope such people will be removed from
around my father and the successor. I definitely believe they
will not be beneficial for the development of North Korea
and for the future of the successor. In other words,
(23:49):
Kim Jong Nam knew that his father was surrounded by
sycophants and suck ups, people who are more interested in
their own safety and security than that of regular people.
Comey asked Chong Nam if he ever got to talk
to his father about these problems. Nam's reply, All the time,
(24:09):
I tell him about what I think, frankly, without any
rehearsed script. In the past, I've directly spoken to him
about the concerns of the international community about the nuclear
tests and missile launching tests. Reading these messages, it was
clear to call me that Kim jong Nam was not
an exile at all, but was in fact one of
(24:30):
the few people close to the Supreme Leader and one
of the few people who is actually brave enough to
tell him the truth. The distance gave him some protection,
some latitude to tell his father what he didn't want
to hear. The distance also solidified his feelings that North
(24:50):
Korea had to change. According to my common sense, reform
and liberalization are considered to be essential for a any
economic development. While staying in China for many years, I
have directly witnessed and experienced how China achieved development all
of these statements, These were the types of things that
(25:12):
got people sent to the mountains for a long long time.
But Kim jong Nam knew that if anybody had the
privilege to speak out, it was him, the son of
the dear Leader. His stepmother might try to ruin him,
maybe even his little brother, but his father never Still,
(25:35):
Kim jong Nam had to tread carefully. He weighed his words.
He reiterated that he did not speak for the government.
Whenever he mentioned his father, he spoke reverently. But Kim
jong Nam's fear seemed most palpable. Whenever he mentioned his
little brother, Comey could tell that Chong Nam was measuring
(25:59):
his words. The North Korean people, who only have access
to such propaganda in their life are not likely to
find out how things really are. But it would really
hurt me if the entire world comes to look at
my brother as a villain. I hope that my brother
will become a leader who is renowned among the people
of the same race for his virtues. The journalists and
(26:22):
the prince would exchange messages for twelve weeks, and in
that time, Comey not only got Kim Jong Nam to
open up, he got him to agree to a face
to face on the record interview. On January, Comey arrived
(26:43):
in Macau to meet the eldest son of North Korea's dictator.
Comey arrived with his wife, hoping that traveling in tandem
would help him blending with tourists, you know, look a
little less suspicious. Waiting in a hotel lobby, Comey scanned
the door, waiting for the prince to enter. Then a
(27:05):
man wearing a black jacket walked in his face, obscured
by sunglasses. It was Kim Jong Nam. The men sat down,
made idle chit chat, and Comey turned on his trusty
voice recorder. Then on the record, Kim jong Nam opened up.
(27:28):
He repeated his opposition to a third generation dynasty, arguing
again that until recently his father had been opposed to
the idea as well. He again blamed the power elite
for North Korea's problems. He even blasted his father's recent
attempt at currency reform, calling it a failure. He advocated
(27:50):
for change and name dropped his reformist uncle. I think
the country's trapped in the dilemma. While it is obvious
that his economy will collapse, that does not carry out reform.
Reform could also trigger a collapse of the regime. I
would expect time will pass away as the country remains
in the state of affairs. From what I have heard
(28:11):
on the Mr Changsung text, leadership, North Korea seriously considered
introducing Chinese style reform and liberalization. At the end of
the conversation, Comey asked permission to put everything the two
had talked about in an article. Kim Jong Nam approved,
Comy published it right away. For North Korean's it's risky
(28:54):
to say or publish anything remotely critical about their country,
especially if you've abandoned the regime. Nobody would know that
better than Kim jong Nam's own family. You probably recall
that two of his cousins and his aunt all published
tell All memoirs. One of them would be shot dead,
(29:19):
the others remained in hiding to this day, and Kim
jong Nam clearly already had enemies in the regime long
before he began talking to Yojigomi. In two thousand four,
Kim jong Nam had been visiting Vienna, Austria. There, security
officials purportedly received a tip about a plot to kill him.
(29:43):
According to a source quote, the attempt was made by
anti Kim groups in North Korea. Others, however, suggest that
it could have come from the first family itself. Whoever
it was, the plan was miss seriously thwarted. Then, in
April of two thousand nine, a secret police unit stormed
(30:07):
into the Pyongyang villa that Kim jong Nam used when
visiting North Korea. It's where the firstborn son like to
party and entertain, and when the cops showed up, everyone
in the building was taken away, presumably to the mountains,
but Kim jong Nam wasn't there that day, Kim jong
(30:32):
Nam was becoming paranoid. He began using an old Nokia
phone that couldn't be tracked. He covered the cameras on
his laptop with tape. According to the owner of a
restaurant that Kim jong Nam often visited, the elder Prince
must have carried a device that jam security cameras, because
whenever he came to eat, the CCTV would malfunction. Rumors
(30:55):
began swirling that by the late two thousands, the China
government was offering Kim jong Nam his own security detail
with twenty four hour protection and monitoring. It's this last
measure that's prompted a slew of conspiracy theories. Did China
consider Kim jong Nam as a potential leader? China's number
(31:18):
one consideration when it comes to the Korean peninsula is stability.
They do not want a catastrophic collapse of North Korea
on its fragile northeastern border, so everything they do is
with that in mind. There had been signs for many
years that they had been cultivating Kim jong Nam and
(31:39):
kind of keeping him in reserve in case they needed
to install and China friendly new leader of North Korea.
Why Kim jong Nam and not his uncle Chang Zong
Tech the country's number two. Because he comes from the
Kim family, he has that mythical pek Do blood coursing
(32:00):
through his veins, so it's something that could be easily
sold to the North Korean people. But nobody is certain
if China was protecting Kim jong Nam because he was
a fallback option. It's possible that his father was in
fact paying for the security detail, but soon his father
would be out of the picture, and that's when everything changed.
(32:29):
After his interview with Kim jong Nam, Comey watched his
email for some kind of acknowledgement from his subject. It
had only been a few days since the article came out,
but the silence of his inbox made him anxious. Had
the flood of friendly messages stopped then good evening. The
(32:49):
stories printed in the Tokyo Shimbun last month. In the
second of this month may have aggravated North Korea. I
received this sort of warning from them. Please hold off
on publishing all other articles for the time being. I
hope you understand. In another more ominous email, he followed up,
(33:11):
I just have to be careful and patient. The exchanges
would continue, but Kim jong nam sprawling tirades against the
regime transformed into terse one or two sentence replies, so
Comey changes tactics. The men found other things to talk about.
(33:32):
When a tsunami struct Japan in eleven, destroying the Fukushimi
Daichi Nuclear power plant, Kim jong Nam sent a message
of sympathy. I'd like to express my deepest condolences to
the disaster victims in your country. The middle aged men
went on to complain to each other about gout and
beer bloat. They talked about the risks of nuclear power plants,
(33:54):
Fukushima still weighing heavily on their minds, with Chong Nam
opining we must protect the planet's ecosystem. After a month
of idle chit chat, the conversation swung back to North Korea,
with Kim jong Nam opening up about his relationship with
his father. The media paint my father is a fearful dictator.
(34:17):
I feel quite bitter about this. Apart from the fact
that he's the head of a nation. I only remember
him as a very affectionate person, though he was sometimes strict.
Week by week, Kim jong Nam became more of his
old self again. It's unclear if the threats had ended,
or if he called their bluff, or if he simply
(34:38):
let his guard down. Regardless, he went on to express
dangerous criticisms that would get most people thrown in a
gulag or worse killed. He called himself a capitalistic young
man and talked about how he had betrayed his father's expectations.
(34:59):
He contemp played at a future where his brother remained
just as stubborn as his father. If my brother is
against the idea of reforms and liberalization, I would like
to question his thoughts and plans for the future of
North Korea. Comey kept the conversation moving, but he wasn't
(35:19):
satisfied with emails. He wanted another face to face meeting,
and after months of cajoling, he convinced Kim Jong Nam
to agree to a second interview in Beijing, but this
time would be different. Comey and Kim Jong Nam never
set a time or date, so Comey arrived in China
(35:44):
and patiently waited for directions from his subject. One day
passed nothing, then another still nothing. Comey sent email after
frantic email, but received no replies. Homey thought he was
being stood up. By a North Korean prince. On the
(36:06):
day before his return flight, A disappointed called me gave up.
He decided to visit some friends and go out to dinner.
He ate seafood and drank wine. He laughed and tried
for a few hours to forget about the meeting and
the big story he had just lost. And then at
(36:29):
ten pm he looked at his phone. There were five
missed calls, all from a Macau area code. Comey's heart raced.
He called the number back but could barely hear. The
noise was distorted. It sounded like there was a crowd
in the background, but he could recognize the faint voice
(36:49):
on the other line. It was Kim Jong Numb and
he wanted to meet Comey jotted down the address. It
was for a swanky Beijing hotel. He grabbed his coat
and his bag, rushed out of the restaurant, and dove
into a taxi. At one in the morning, he hurried
into the hotel, entered an extravagant elevator, and pressed the
(37:10):
button for the top floor. When he stepped off, he
entered a world of luxury and opulence, A room with
high ceilings, deep mahogany fixtures and gilded details, the kind
of place where bartenders and tuxedos served fine liquors to
elegantly dressed patrons who all spoke in hushed tones. At
(37:34):
the corner of the bar amid all this wealth sat
a man in a baseball cap. It was Kim jong Nam.
Hell he made it after all come He doesn't recall
how long the two talked. He never recorded what they said.
The two men did not speak as journalists and subjects.
(37:55):
They talked off the record, this time as friends into whiskey.
According to Comey, Kim jong Nam ordered glass after glass
of high end whiskey. Each time he pulled out a
pocket full of a hundred yuan notes and paid the waiter.
As the night will on, Kim jong Nam turned solemn.
(38:19):
He cradled his glass and stared forlornly at the amber liquid.
Do you think things will be different? Nothing will change,
It's impossible to make change happen. He reached again into
his pocket. Money spilled onto the floor. Kim jong Nam
(38:42):
looked at it for a moment and let it sit.
He never picked it up. For the next seven months,
Kim jong Nam and Yoji called me kept emailing and
in December of the dear leader Kim Jong il would
(39:03):
die A few days later. Homie offered his condolences and
asked if he could turn their emails into a book.
He promised not to publish anything inflammatory, but Kim Jong
Nam hesitated. We remain in mourning for a hundred days
in North Korea. It will not be advantageous for me
(39:24):
if any new information comes out during that period. Please
understand the North Korean regime might attempt to inflict something
to put me in harm's way. But even though he
knew he was at risk, Kim Jong Nam couldn't resist
getting something off his chest. As a matter of common sense,
a power transferred to the third generation is utterly unacceptable.
(39:50):
How can a young successor with only two years of
grooming take over a system of absolute power that has
sustained for the last thirty seven years. I suspect the
power leads that have ruled the country will continue to
be in control while upholding the young successor as a
mere figurehead. I'm sure you'll be hearing a lot of
(40:12):
fiction writing or rumors about me, as well as what
may or may not happen to North Korea's future. I
wish you and your family's good health, respectfully, Kim jong Nam.
It's unclear if Comey would ever hear from Kim jong
Nam again. All we know is that he did what
(40:33):
any journalists would do. He published, and soon Kim jong
Nam would be writing letters to his brother asking him
to please spare his life. I'm the next Big Brother.
The theories about what killed Kim jong Nam get complicated
(40:57):
by money, technology, and the beloved relative who becomes a
canary in the coal mine for the exiled prince. Big
Brother is the production of School of Humans and I
Heart Radio and hosted by me Even Lee. Lucas Riley
(41:22):
is our writer, co director and associate producer. Amelia Brock
is our senior producer, co director and editor. Executive producers
are Virginia Prescott, Brandon Barr, L. C. Crowley, and Jason English.
Our fact checker is Aaron Blakemore. Music composed by Jason
Todd Shannon and Tune Waters. Original score mixed by Vick Stafford.
(41:45):
The bar scene piano rendition of the Big Brother theme
song was performed by Lucas Riley, Audio editing by Jesse
nice Swanger, sound design and mixed by Harper W. Harris,
Audio correction by Josh Fisher, Voice acting by Mark Chung,
Sean mckeek, Mike Coscarelli, Katie Wong, Jason Todd Shannon, and
(42:06):
Amelia Brock. Special thanks to Ryan Murdoch and Will Pearson.
Sound licensed from the Associated Press. A special acknowledgement to
the reporting of Yoji Komi and his book My Father
Kim Jong Il and I, published by Pung Sunju. If
you're enjoying the podcast, help us get the word out
(42:26):
by leaving a rating in your favorite podcast app. Until
next time, I'm even Lee School of Humans.
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