June 11, 2025 • 30 mins
Today's special guest is Ashlea Taylor Barber, licensed Marriage and Family Therapist, and owner of the therapy & consulting practice "Favor & Grace Under Fire" .
Part 1 of 2 - Therapy for Black Marriages
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast, and I'm
your host, Ramsey's Jaw. And sometimes the amount of stories
that make their way to us means that we simply
can't cover everything that comes our way. But from time
to time, a story just stays with me and Bill
compelled to share it with you and give you my thoughts.
And now one more thing. So recently, I was out
(00:25):
with a group of new friends, we'll say, and we
were having some new conversations, as you often do, and
one of the individuals that I was talking to kind
(00:46):
of plugged in in a way that it's kind of rare.
This woman was brilliant and was a professional, and so
the inside that she was able to bring to our
conversation it really moved me, and it really captivated everyone's attention.
(01:11):
And I know that we are I would say we're
on the cusp of some form of evolution as a
people in this country, but I think we're kind of
in the middle of that right now. But the fact
is that there are a lot of things that I'm
(01:33):
able to talk about here and Q is able to
talk about here. And you know, after a while, you
say things and maybe they just don't mean as much,
or you never quite figure out the right way to
say things, or the knowledge that you're trying to pass
(01:54):
on it lies kind of beyond your level of experience. Well,
today was the day when I realized that I met
a person that had something meaningful to share who could
(02:14):
also share it in a way that I could not.
And so Ashley Taylor joins us today. Ashley Taylor Barber
is an independently independently licensed marriage and family therapist, relationship expert,
keynote speaker, and the CEO slash owner of the therapy
and consulting practice Favor and Grace under Fire and the
(02:35):
speaking engagement company Speaking Favor and Grace. So welcome to
the show.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's a pleasure, yes. Now. One of the things that
we've been very fortunate to be able to participate in
ish we did the Black Men's Mental Health Summit in
Manhattan that might have been a year and a half ago,
and uh, you know, we did a I did a
fireside chat with Charlemagne and Q. It was the actual
(03:03):
host of the event. And we partner with the ad
Council and iHeartMedia and the Huntsman Group and so forth.
We've done, without going into a whole resume, we've done
a number of events where we're doing our best to
provide insight into how we deal with the strain on
(03:24):
our mental health having to cover police shootings and political
disenfranchisement and so forth day after day, week after week,
and how do we regulate ourselves and regulate our spirits
so that we can remain committed to the outcomes that
we're trying to pursue with the programming that we create. Absolutely,
and this is something that you do as a professional.
(03:45):
This is something that you have like a high level
insight into. Now I want to bring our listeners to
the conversation that we were having a little bit earlier,
and so actually, you know what I want you to
do that you know what, So here here, let's do
us a favor. Yeah, we're going to talk about epigenetics
(04:07):
before we get into like mental health, but just so
that it frames a conversation about that for the benefit
of our listeners who've never heard this word before. Give
a little bit of insight into what epigenetics means, and
then I'll share my epigenetics story and then we'll get
back to where you were kind of pouring into me.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yes, So you know I love to make things simple everybody.
So epigenetics is what your body at a cellular level
has learned generationally and has passed down for you to survive.
That is my simplistic when someone's sitting on my couch,
this is what I tell you because a lot of
our behaviors, thoughts, and even feelings, these are passed down.
(04:48):
So it could be dysfunctional or it could be functional.
I don't always like to use the word dysfunctional because
that brings a feeling of discomfort, but it's functional in
your survival. And so there's so much research right now
around epigenetics, and I love it because a lot of this,
a lot of the behaviors or the interactions with our families,
(05:11):
the interactions in our core relationships, these are learned behaviors
that have been cellularly passed down so we can survive.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Okay, now we're going to get back to because the
reason I wanted to stop everything, I'm like, okay, you
have to be on the show, you have to share
this is because you were at the beginning of making
a connection between epigenetics, the work that you do with
families and in marriages and the societal frameworks that we
(05:44):
are subjected to as black people in this country, and
how we are limited in some regard in terms of
like trying to find the healing that that we need
and accessibility is kind of challenging. But also I think
(06:07):
that in a lot of circles there's a failure to
even acknowledge that the harm was done and what needs
to be done about that, and so so I want
to I want to make sure that we get there.
But while we're here, I'll bring books up to speed.
We were having a conversation about epigenetics and I had
(06:27):
learned from an interview Neil deGrasse tysonheld with a woman
named doctor Marlin. Now this is important. Doctor Marlin is
a black woman, and we're talking about how black women
bring a validity to uh what what kind of spaces
(06:50):
I'm trying to say, intellectual spaces and into scientific spaces
that really cause the white supremacist superstructure to really be
challenged because exactly just your presence is a call out
(07:15):
to and so I'll make my point. So I'll make
my point. So anyway, doctor Marlon is on the show
with Miildergrast Tyson, and she's talking about epigenetics. She says,
in our lab, we have mice, and we take some
of the mice and we put them in a room,
and we introduce a smell of almond, and then we
(07:39):
introduce a shock to those mice. And then we do
this over and over again, and then the mice come
to know that this smell means that I'm going to
get shocked. And then again there's the control group where
this doesn't happen. Those mice then have children. Those mice
then have children, so there's a few generations removed. Those offspring,
(08:03):
like the great or the grand offspring or great grand
or whatever offspring of the mice that received the shock,
will be given that smell, and then they will still
exhibit the stress factors and so forth of the experiment,
even though it never happened to them. They never received
a shock, right and so and then her lab, doctor
Marlin's lab kind of gets in on the biological needs
(08:26):
of it to make a stronger case of it now again,
or a black woman to be doing that in that space. Obviously,
there are people that would call that a dei whatever,
But we know that that is obviously the height of excellence,
of human excellence, because not only do you have to
be a master in that space, but you have to
(08:47):
also have to be a master in every other space
in order to even get there. Now, the mirror held
up to the white supremacist superstructure is the fact that
what are the implications of this study? Well, the implications
of this study or that harm caused to one generation
(09:07):
can be passed down on a cellular level to future generations.
Right and as a black woman sharing this data to
the scientific community, the one thing that no one can
ignore is her round skin and her braids, and you know,
what are the implications? So she doesn't have to say
what she's trying to say her energy. Now, when we
(09:35):
got to that part of the conversation, you shifted gears
a bit and you said, you know what, we have
historically had these challenges with the structure of our family.
And correct me if I'm wrong, because I want you
(09:56):
to jump in here, but I'm trying to frame this
for you so to be fair, there's a myth that
black men are not good fathers, right.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Correct now by society exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now that that is very much a myth that indeed,
the CDC for those that don't know and haven't heard
the previous episodes of CDC to study maybe ten years
tennis years ago by race in terms of fathers, and
that's not that's not the Black CDC. That is the
United States Center for Disease Control, and they monitor these things.
Turns out that black men are indeed the most engaged
(10:32):
fathers right now, Your point I think that you were
making was in terms of absenteeism, which again is also
a myth. When you adjust for control or when you
adjust for external factors like imprison imprisonment rates and death
and all that sort of stuff. Black men don't abandon
(10:52):
their children any more than anyone else. But because this
is a part of our narrative here, we have to
push back and fight against that, and we wear those
clothes differently than other folks. Yes, now, what you were
what you were saying is that you were basically making
that point that we are in a society where we
(11:13):
are charged with fixing problems that we did not create,
correct using tools that we do not have by people
who fail to acknowledge their role in creating the circumstances
that we're in. Now, that's not to say that we
don't have any personal accountablity or anything like that, because
(11:34):
I know.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
People will push back different subjects.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
But while we're here, that's what we're talking about. So yeah,
I said a lot. I want you to just kind
of give your thoughts. I think I've painted enough of
a picture, but you know, getting speed.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, So, like I was telling you, marriage and family therapy.
First of all, it is the study of getting to
the root of dysfunctional generational patterns. So when I was
looking at a grad program, you know you have counseling,
social work, and family therapy, This one resonated because I
knew I wanted to do something that helped African American
(12:05):
people move forward and not not by our choice, but
not stay stuck in the same loops or the same
generational patterns, specifically when it came to family and racism.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Because we know that those are tied together so much.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
When we talk about redlining, and when we talk about
generational wealth, and when we talk about financial wealth, why
can't we move forward? Why are we still here even
in twenty twenty five, in this situation that we're currently in.
And you're absolutely right when we look at that a
lot of these statistics or a lot of these stereotypes
that have been said about us are not exactly true.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And so that's what I love. What a lot of these.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Black philosophers, psychologists, and scientists they're doing the research. I
was literally I run a bipod consulting networking group for
black commissions, and she said, I'm going to get a PhD.
Because a lot of the statistics about us don't even
include us.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
This is the first problem.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
They're not even studying us, which you know, I don't
necessarily know if I want them to study us, because
we know how that went in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Sure, but it would be nice.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
If we had more of these scientific research, you know,
projects with people of color. So it is not skewed.
But anyway, that's a different subject. But what we were
talking about was when people come into my office and
sit on my couch. The reason why I became a
marriage in family therapist because one, I wanted the representation
to be there. I want you to sit on my
(13:29):
couch and I want you to understand that I understand you.
I don't want you to have to explain it to me.
I understand your experience because that's the key. But two,
I wanted to break that stigma of this historical shame,
blame and guilt that has been placed on specifically African
American people in America, that these things are our fault,
(13:49):
we perpetuate them, and we can get out of them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's just so easy.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Stop doing the things that you do, Stop being a
part of the pipeline to prison, stop being the single mother.
You know, society paints this picture that we are perpetrating
our own dysfunctional destinies, and it's just not true. And
so a lot of my work is when someone comes
and sits on my couch, I'm like, well, do you
know about dysfunctional generational patterns? So we do this thing
(14:18):
called a genogram, which is more of a scientific it's
empirical based family tree, but you literally map it out
three generations ramses. So we sit there, we map it out,
and I say, what are some of the dysfunctional generational
patterns that you want to change? This is your family.
(14:38):
What do you want to change? And that's what we're
going to work on, because society tells us that we're stuck,
we can't change these things.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
This is just the way it's going to be. You're
black in.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
America, I don't know if I can cuss out here,
but essentially your friend, you know, and that's not true.
We can map this out and we can look. So
last week I had a client who she said, Ashley,
the main why I'm here is because I had a daughter,
and I don't want my daughter to be in the
same dysfunctional relationships that I'm in. The father of my
(15:11):
child he can be and these are her words. And
this is no offense to him, because I think we
all need to get into the right But he can
be manipulative, he can be needy, and for me, I'm thinking,
if he was sitting on my couch, he's been using
these dysfunctional generational patterns to survive, to keep the woman,
(15:31):
to keep the job. You manipulate to keep things. You
don't manipulate, because that's love. You manipulate to keep things.
But anyways, when we're going back to her, I'm like, Okay,
She's like, well, my mom dated someone who was like that,
my grandma dated someone who was like that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
We found that for mapping.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
This out, and she said, I don't want to be that,
So what do I need to do to change? And
I said, bet, I got you here's our plan. Now.
Part of that plan is understanding historically who she is, right,
because if you go back to enslaved times, if you
go to these plantations, even some of the stuff you
(16:09):
were talking about, how they couldn't laugh and they had
to laugh in barrels, you get to see that firsthand.
I went intow or Leans and it was it was
insanely emotional and something that I will never forget. But
our ancestors were literally living in a shack with multiple
families in one room, probably the size of this, not
(16:30):
knowing if their kids were going to be taken away,
not knowing if their husband was going to be sold off,
be or not knowing if your wife was going to
be raped, and somehow they survived. So my point to
all my clients when we start is that it is
inherently in you to survive. That's not something that you
have to work on. You feel like that's what you're
working on right now, That's not what you're working on.
What you're working on is how to thrive. And that's
(16:53):
what we're gonna do. So we're going to take away
the trauma because once you experience any type of trauma,
and we were talking about this lunch. You go into
the sympathetic nervous system that's your fight, flight, freeze or fon.
This is automatic. I call it your god given right
to survive. Your body goes into this. But I tell people,
(17:13):
the problem with most African American people in this country
is that we've never had an opportunity to go into
your peara sympathetic, which is your rest restoring digests.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Okay, explain that.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
So your rest is your rest restoring digests. This is
where you often can create with no suppression or no
worry of what harm is going to come to you. Okay,
So most of us get stuck in the sympathetic not
by our own fault, which I am all about getting
(17:45):
rid of shamee blame and guilt. So that's one of
the major things we work on as well. But fight
is when somebody walks up to you, your body, all
of your cellular data, probably passed down generationally, has already
kind of postured like I don't know what this person
wants from. I don't know what they're gonna say. So
if your natural genetic disposition is fight, you're gonna get
(18:06):
in a fighting stance. Now you could be an emotional fighter,
so you might just at them mount that's your defense.
You could be a freezer where your body freeze but
your mind is still here. You could be emotional freezer.
So in a lot of relationships, we see this specifically
well everybody, but a lot with black people, right because
you don't want to say the wrong thing, but you
(18:28):
still want to be in this relationship, but you freeze
up when it's time to talk. You end up on
my couch and it seems like you're just avoiding the situation.
It seems like maybe you start gaslighting that person, but
you're not doing it intentionally to be malicious. You're doing
it because that has saved you.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
In the past.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
That's probably saved your grandpa in the past. It's probably
saved your grandma in the past and your great grandma.
These are I call them negative coping skills that we
have latched onto to move forward and you don't need
and realizing you're doing it.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
If I may, are you familiar with the Willie Lynch letter,
I'm glad that you're not, but I employed to check
it out and for everyone listening, if you're not familiar
with it, check it out. I will say based on
(19:24):
what I know that the Willie Lynch Letter is a
work of fiction, but it feels very true, and it
feels very consistent with the era from which it is
supposed to have come. But it has been regarded commonly
(19:48):
as a work of fiction. So in other words, just
kind of know that as I tell you this, the
Willy Lynch Letter, it's supposed to be the name the
letter written by the man after whom Lynching is named.
So getting hung from a tree they named that after
this guy. That's that's kind of the framing of the letter.
(20:11):
This letter is from a like a master slave owner
that would teach other slave owners how to keep their
slaves from rebelling.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Okay, got you, I'm here, And.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Part of this letter it's a speech, but it's been transcribed,
so part of we call it the letter, but it's
really more of a speech. Part of what was what
he was saying was you have to break yeah, oh yeah,
let me get there. But yeah, so you're ahead of me,
so you didn't even have to read it. But following me,
follow because because I got a paint a picture for
(20:51):
them to So he equates breaking the human spirit to
that of breaking a horse. So immediately we're regarded as
beasts and not as homo sapien sai, commodifying of black bodies.
(21:11):
So he describes almost like the people that are reading
this know this describes how to break a horse. So
it doesn't go into details, but basically, you know, stud
the male horse and then the female horse is the
one that's important. Right, So in the in the letter,
he says, so we're going to use the same principles
(21:35):
here to break a slave. Now they don't use the
word slave. They use the time appropriate word that translates
to ignorant person. And then they use some unkind language
to describe black women, but that was the language they
used at the time. Just need to prepare people, because
I do want everyone to read this. So what he
(21:55):
says is, here's the process. In short, find yourself two males.
I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Find yourself
two males, biggest, strongest, you know, males that you can find.
Take one of them, Tie one arm to a horse,
(22:16):
the other arm to a different horse, a leg to
a horse, a leg to another horse. Whip all the
horses so they all run in different directions, and break
his body apart. Make sure all the rest of the
slaves can see this, particularly the woman. Pay attention to her. Yeah,
so now you have a slave ripped apart, the male
figure ripped apart into pieces in front of her, and
(22:38):
she can see it. The next thing you do is
the second male slave, you whip him. Don't kill him,
because it's important. You're gonna need him, but you need
to whip him almost to the point of death. You
need to make sure that the woman watches this. What
(22:58):
she's going to take away from that, this is a
masterful It's evil like it's masterful in the way the
Hitler was masterful. It's evil in the way the Hitler
is evil. So what will happen is she will be
frozen and paralyzed because what once was her protector in
her native land of Africa is laid in pieces in
(23:20):
front of her, and the other one is cowering and bleeding.
And she recognizes in that moment that she no longer
has the capacity to defend herself because that was her
best shot.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So what she's.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Going to do is become immediately agreeable, and she's going
to raise her children in reversed roles, so the man
will be submissive and compliant the male child and the
female child will be like her, and we use her
to negotiate with and through and she will step out
(23:55):
in front to protect the male child from the uh,
the the master. Okay, now let me let me, let
me bring it, bring it full circle, let me bring
it to today. Because people have studied this letter. Again,
work of fiction, but it's based on truths. These things
actually happen even if the letter didn't. Right. But you know,
(24:18):
there's this, uh, this caricature of a certain type of
a human being that exists, and it's based on truth,
but I think it's exaggerated very much in media and
television and entertainment and so forth. Of the the the
big black Mama. Right, she ain't gonna take no less
exactly exactly right. Where does that come from? Oh? Okay?
(24:43):
So how are these people raised in reverse roles? Oh okay?
And then another part of the letter, just to go
back real quick, it says, if this is done correctly,
you will create this reframing of their families and the
and their mentality and and this will last for four
hundred years, if not more, because it is a self
(25:06):
refueling cycle. And that's one of the things that kind
of people pointed to to say this is the work
of fiction because words self refueling didn't exist back in
the seventeen.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Hundred or whatever, but self revealing.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah. But the point is that the brilliance is still
in the language there and in the story there, and
the idea that those traumas could be passed on is
something that we're just discovering. And what you're talking about,
(25:38):
I think kind of brings that full circle. So that's
why I wanted to mention that he give me your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. So Postly, a Trade Syndrome book
written by doctor Joy Degrue, is literally.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
What you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
In that book, she basically talks about how, you know,
why is it that some black moms don't dote on
or talk about their black sons and daughters the way
that other ethnic groups would.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
She ties it all.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
The way back to enslaved times where the matriarch, the
head or the head of the head of the cabin
would actually talk negatively about her kids because she didn't
want them to be sold or she didn't want them
to be you know, moved up essentially in workload. She
(26:32):
wanted them to stay because if you talked about how
great they were, then you know the slave master or
whoever he has out there is going to sell them
for more money or you know, use them, beat them,
do whatever. So it's exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yes, I think it's important to say that.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
All so yes, beat them, rape them, essentially, make them
fight each other. We saw that a lot at their parties.
Making one black man fight another black man until the death.
You know, of course, selling them. And I just have
(27:15):
to say, going to the plantation and seeing the plaques
of enslaved people's names with an actual dollar in that
by them is an experience. And you guys see me
taking a lot of deep breasts because I've learned to
regulate my nervous system so I don't move into fight,
flight freeze or fon. And I'm not fully present in
(27:37):
this conversation because even after all this time, I still
understand that my ancestry is this and not by choice,
right or else I would be going to fight flight,
freezer fond right now as well. But yeah, all of
this is generationally passed down. I mean, I tell people
the story all the time about my mom, who's amazing.
I was in fourth grade getting ready to go into kindergarten,
(27:59):
and she said, Hey, Ashley, people are gonna make funny
you because your hair, because your hair stands straight up.
People are gonna make fun of you, or white people,
starry white people. Since we're being completely honest. They're gonna
make funny you because the palms of your hands are white.
They're gonna ask you questions, They're gonna say that you're different.
She's like, but there's nothing wrong with you. She says,
you are made exactly how your maide, and I want
(28:20):
you to stand with your head held high.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
So in that conversation that I didn't even really quite
understand what she was talking about, I knew it was
important because she looked straightforward. She had tears in her eyes.
I could see because I was sitting in the back seat.
I could see her in the rearview mirror.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
It wasn't a conversation that she wanted to have face
to face, but it was a conversation that she knew
she had to have.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
To prepare me.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And so even there she broke a dismentional generational pattern.
She could have just sent me and let me kind
of find for myself and figure it out. But she
wanted to prepare me and she wanted me to know
who she was. But in the current stance and the
current society, not everybody gets that because a lot of
(29:06):
us are still in survival unfortunately, because we didn't get
the tools, the generational wealth, or the emotional maturity. So
one of the first things I do with people who
sit on my couch is I give them a bunch
of coping sales. I tell them you're in the right place.
I tell them all the feelings that you're feeling are
completely normal, right because our feelings were weaponized back then,
(29:29):
so it went from us having feelings to having no feelings.
And now we're in this reimagining space where it's okay
if you are the clan in the classroom who has anxiety,
because you're just like that mouse, right you're that third
fourth generational mouse who's jumping, but this time there's no electricity,
(29:50):
so you think you're weird, not weird. I tell people
your body is actually doing exactly what it's supposed to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's keeping you safe. You just don't know that history
behind it.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Can I add something else here? All right? For anyone listening,
if you know somebody Black that don't have no reason
to be scared of dogs, and they are scared of dogs.
I think we might have and I never put it
(30:23):
together before, but I think there might be something here right.
This concludes part one of our two part conversation with
Ashley Taylor Barber discussing therapy for Black marriages. Check back
in for part two right here on the Black Information
Network
This is the Black Information Network Daily podcast, and I'm
your host, Ramsey's Jaw. And sometimes the amount of stories
that make their way to us means that we simply
can't cover everything that comes our way. But from time
to time, a story just stays with me and Bill
compelled to share it with you and give you my thoughts.
And now one more thing. So recently, I was out
(00:25):
with a group of new friends, we'll say, and we
were having some new conversations, as you often do, and
one of the individuals that I was talking to kind
(00:46):
of plugged in in a way that it's kind of rare.
This woman was brilliant and was a professional, and so
the inside that she was able to bring to our
conversation it really moved me, and it really captivated everyone's attention.
(01:11):
And I know that we are I would say we're
on the cusp of some form of evolution as a
people in this country, but I think we're kind of
in the middle of that right now. But the fact
is that there are a lot of things that I'm
(01:33):
able to talk about here and Q is able to
talk about here. And you know, after a while, you
say things and maybe they just don't mean as much,
or you never quite figure out the right way to
say things, or the knowledge that you're trying to pass
(01:54):
on it lies kind of beyond your level of experience. Well,
today was the day when I realized that I met
a person that had something meaningful to share who could
(02:14):
also share it in a way that I could not.
And so Ashley Taylor joins us today. Ashley Taylor Barber
is an independently independently licensed marriage and family therapist, relationship expert,
keynote speaker, and the CEO slash owner of the therapy
and consulting practice Favor and Grace under Fire and the
(02:35):
speaking engagement company Speaking Favor and Grace. So welcome to
the show.
Speaker 2 (02:39):
You thank you for having me.
Speaker 1 (02:41):
It's a pleasure, yes. Now. One of the things that
we've been very fortunate to be able to participate in
ish we did the Black Men's Mental Health Summit in
Manhattan that might have been a year and a half ago,
and uh, you know, we did a I did a
fireside chat with Charlemagne and Q. It was the actual
(03:03):
host of the event. And we partner with the ad
Council and iHeartMedia and the Huntsman Group and so forth.
We've done, without going into a whole resume, we've done
a number of events where we're doing our best to
provide insight into how we deal with the strain on
(03:24):
our mental health having to cover police shootings and political
disenfranchisement and so forth day after day, week after week,
and how do we regulate ourselves and regulate our spirits
so that we can remain committed to the outcomes that
we're trying to pursue with the programming that we create. Absolutely,
and this is something that you do as a professional.
(03:45):
This is something that you have like a high level
insight into. Now I want to bring our listeners to
the conversation that we were having a little bit earlier,
and so actually, you know what I want you to
do that you know what, So here here, let's do
us a favor. Yeah, we're going to talk about epigenetics
(04:07):
before we get into like mental health, but just so
that it frames a conversation about that for the benefit
of our listeners who've never heard this word before. Give
a little bit of insight into what epigenetics means, and
then I'll share my epigenetics story and then we'll get
back to where you were kind of pouring into me.
Speaker 3 (04:23):
Yes, So you know I love to make things simple everybody.
So epigenetics is what your body at a cellular level
has learned generationally and has passed down for you to survive.
That is my simplistic when someone's sitting on my couch,
this is what I tell you because a lot of
our behaviors, thoughts, and even feelings, these are passed down.
(04:48):
So it could be dysfunctional or it could be functional.
I don't always like to use the word dysfunctional because
that brings a feeling of discomfort, but it's functional in
your survival. And so there's so much research right now
around epigenetics, and I love it because a lot of this,
a lot of the behaviors or the interactions with our families,
(05:11):
the interactions in our core relationships, these are learned behaviors
that have been cellularly passed down so we can survive.
Speaker 1 (05:19):
Okay, now we're going to get back to because the
reason I wanted to stop everything, I'm like, okay, you
have to be on the show, you have to share
this is because you were at the beginning of making
a connection between epigenetics, the work that you do with
families and in marriages and the societal frameworks that we
(05:44):
are subjected to as black people in this country, and
how we are limited in some regard in terms of
like trying to find the healing that that we need
and accessibility is kind of challenging. But also I think
(06:07):
that in a lot of circles there's a failure to
even acknowledge that the harm was done and what needs
to be done about that, and so so I want
to I want to make sure that we get there.
But while we're here, I'll bring books up to speed.
We were having a conversation about epigenetics and I had
(06:27):
learned from an interview Neil deGrasse tysonheld with a woman
named doctor Marlin. Now this is important. Doctor Marlin is
a black woman, and we're talking about how black women
bring a validity to uh what what kind of spaces
(06:50):
I'm trying to say, intellectual spaces and into scientific spaces
that really cause the white supremacist superstructure to really be
challenged because exactly just your presence is a call out
(07:15):
to and so I'll make my point. So I'll make
my point. So anyway, doctor Marlon is on the show
with Miildergrast Tyson, and she's talking about epigenetics. She says,
in our lab, we have mice, and we take some
of the mice and we put them in a room,
and we introduce a smell of almond, and then we
(07:39):
introduce a shock to those mice. And then we do
this over and over again, and then the mice come
to know that this smell means that I'm going to
get shocked. And then again there's the control group where
this doesn't happen. Those mice then have children. Those mice
then have children, so there's a few generations removed. Those offspring,
(08:03):
like the great or the grand offspring or great grand
or whatever offspring of the mice that received the shock,
will be given that smell, and then they will still
exhibit the stress factors and so forth of the experiment,
even though it never happened to them. They never received
a shock, right and so and then her lab, doctor
Marlin's lab kind of gets in on the biological needs
(08:26):
of it to make a stronger case of it now again,
or a black woman to be doing that in that space. Obviously,
there are people that would call that a dei whatever,
But we know that that is obviously the height of excellence,
of human excellence, because not only do you have to
be a master in that space, but you have to
(08:47):
also have to be a master in every other space
in order to even get there. Now, the mirror held
up to the white supremacist superstructure is the fact that
what are the implications of this study? Well, the implications
of this study or that harm caused to one generation
(09:07):
can be passed down on a cellular level to future generations.
Right and as a black woman sharing this data to
the scientific community, the one thing that no one can
ignore is her round skin and her braids, and you know,
what are the implications? So she doesn't have to say
what she's trying to say her energy. Now, when we
(09:35):
got to that part of the conversation, you shifted gears
a bit and you said, you know what, we have
historically had these challenges with the structure of our family.
And correct me if I'm wrong, because I want you
(09:56):
to jump in here, but I'm trying to frame this
for you so to be fair, there's a myth that
black men are not good fathers, right.
Speaker 2 (10:07):
Correct now by society exactly.
Speaker 1 (10:10):
Now that that is very much a myth that indeed,
the CDC for those that don't know and haven't heard
the previous episodes of CDC to study maybe ten years
tennis years ago by race in terms of fathers, and
that's not that's not the Black CDC. That is the
United States Center for Disease Control, and they monitor these things.
Turns out that black men are indeed the most engaged
(10:32):
fathers right now, Your point I think that you were
making was in terms of absenteeism, which again is also
a myth. When you adjust for control or when you
adjust for external factors like imprison imprisonment rates and death
and all that sort of stuff. Black men don't abandon
(10:52):
their children any more than anyone else. But because this
is a part of our narrative here, we have to
push back and fight against that, and we wear those
clothes differently than other folks. Yes, now, what you were
what you were saying is that you were basically making
that point that we are in a society where we
(11:13):
are charged with fixing problems that we did not create,
correct using tools that we do not have by people
who fail to acknowledge their role in creating the circumstances
that we're in. Now, that's not to say that we
don't have any personal accountablity or anything like that, because
(11:34):
I know.
Speaker 2 (11:34):
People will push back different subjects.
Speaker 1 (11:36):
But while we're here, that's what we're talking about. So yeah,
I said a lot. I want you to just kind
of give your thoughts. I think I've painted enough of
a picture, but you know, getting speed.
Speaker 3 (11:45):
Yeah, So, like I was telling you, marriage and family therapy.
First of all, it is the study of getting to
the root of dysfunctional generational patterns. So when I was
looking at a grad program, you know you have counseling,
social work, and family therapy, This one resonated because I
knew I wanted to do something that helped African American
(12:05):
people move forward and not not by our choice, but
not stay stuck in the same loops or the same
generational patterns, specifically when it came to family and racism.
Speaker 2 (12:18):
Because we know that those are tied together so much.
Speaker 3 (12:20):
When we talk about redlining, and when we talk about
generational wealth, and when we talk about financial wealth, why
can't we move forward? Why are we still here even
in twenty twenty five, in this situation that we're currently in.
And you're absolutely right when we look at that a
lot of these statistics or a lot of these stereotypes
that have been said about us are not exactly true.
Speaker 2 (12:41):
And so that's what I love. What a lot of these.
Speaker 3 (12:44):
Black philosophers, psychologists, and scientists they're doing the research. I
was literally I run a bipod consulting networking group for
black commissions, and she said, I'm going to get a PhD.
Because a lot of the statistics about us don't even
include us.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
This is the first problem.
Speaker 3 (13:01):
They're not even studying us, which you know, I don't
necessarily know if I want them to study us, because
we know how that went in the past.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Sure, but it would be nice.
Speaker 3 (13:09):
If we had more of these scientific research, you know,
projects with people of color. So it is not skewed.
But anyway, that's a different subject. But what we were
talking about was when people come into my office and
sit on my couch. The reason why I became a
marriage in family therapist because one, I wanted the representation
to be there. I want you to sit on my
(13:29):
couch and I want you to understand that I understand you.
I don't want you to have to explain it to me.
I understand your experience because that's the key. But two,
I wanted to break that stigma of this historical shame,
blame and guilt that has been placed on specifically African
American people in America, that these things are our fault,
(13:49):
we perpetuate them, and we can get out of them.
Speaker 2 (13:52):
It's just so easy.
Speaker 3 (13:54):
Stop doing the things that you do, Stop being a
part of the pipeline to prison, stop being the single mother.
You know, society paints this picture that we are perpetrating
our own dysfunctional destinies, and it's just not true. And
so a lot of my work is when someone comes
and sits on my couch, I'm like, well, do you
know about dysfunctional generational patterns? So we do this thing
(14:18):
called a genogram, which is more of a scientific it's
empirical based family tree, but you literally map it out
three generations ramses. So we sit there, we map it out,
and I say, what are some of the dysfunctional generational
patterns that you want to change? This is your family.
(14:38):
What do you want to change? And that's what we're
going to work on, because society tells us that we're stuck,
we can't change these things.
Speaker 2 (14:45):
This is just the way it's going to be. You're
black in.
Speaker 3 (14:48):
America, I don't know if I can cuss out here,
but essentially your friend, you know, and that's not true.
We can map this out and we can look. So
last week I had a client who she said, Ashley,
the main why I'm here is because I had a daughter,
and I don't want my daughter to be in the
same dysfunctional relationships that I'm in. The father of my
(15:11):
child he can be and these are her words. And
this is no offense to him, because I think we
all need to get into the right But he can
be manipulative, he can be needy, and for me, I'm thinking,
if he was sitting on my couch, he's been using
these dysfunctional generational patterns to survive, to keep the woman,
(15:31):
to keep the job. You manipulate to keep things. You
don't manipulate, because that's love. You manipulate to keep things.
But anyways, when we're going back to her, I'm like, Okay,
She's like, well, my mom dated someone who was like that,
my grandma dated someone who was like that.
Speaker 2 (15:47):
We found that for mapping.
Speaker 3 (15:48):
This out, and she said, I don't want to be that,
So what do I need to do to change? And
I said, bet, I got you here's our plan. Now.
Part of that plan is understanding historically who she is, right,
because if you go back to enslaved times, if you
go to these plantations, even some of the stuff you
(16:09):
were talking about, how they couldn't laugh and they had
to laugh in barrels, you get to see that firsthand.
I went intow or Leans and it was it was
insanely emotional and something that I will never forget. But
our ancestors were literally living in a shack with multiple
families in one room, probably the size of this, not
(16:30):
knowing if their kids were going to be taken away,
not knowing if their husband was going to be sold off,
be or not knowing if your wife was going to
be raped, and somehow they survived. So my point to
all my clients when we start is that it is
inherently in you to survive. That's not something that you
have to work on. You feel like that's what you're
working on right now, That's not what you're working on.
What you're working on is how to thrive. And that's
(16:53):
what we're gonna do. So we're going to take away
the trauma because once you experience any type of trauma,
and we were talking about this lunch. You go into
the sympathetic nervous system that's your fight, flight, freeze or fon.
This is automatic. I call it your god given right
to survive. Your body goes into this. But I tell people,
(17:13):
the problem with most African American people in this country
is that we've never had an opportunity to go into
your peara sympathetic, which is your rest restoring digests.
Speaker 1 (17:23):
Okay, explain that.
Speaker 3 (17:24):
So your rest is your rest restoring digests. This is
where you often can create with no suppression or no
worry of what harm is going to come to you. Okay,
So most of us get stuck in the sympathetic not
by our own fault, which I am all about getting
(17:45):
rid of shamee blame and guilt. So that's one of
the major things we work on as well. But fight
is when somebody walks up to you, your body, all
of your cellular data, probably passed down generationally, has already
kind of postured like I don't know what this person
wants from. I don't know what they're gonna say. So
if your natural genetic disposition is fight, you're gonna get
(18:06):
in a fighting stance. Now you could be an emotional fighter,
so you might just at them mount that's your defense.
You could be a freezer where your body freeze but
your mind is still here. You could be emotional freezer.
So in a lot of relationships, we see this specifically
well everybody, but a lot with black people, right because
you don't want to say the wrong thing, but you
(18:28):
still want to be in this relationship, but you freeze
up when it's time to talk. You end up on
my couch and it seems like you're just avoiding the situation.
It seems like maybe you start gaslighting that person, but
you're not doing it intentionally to be malicious. You're doing
it because that has saved you.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
In the past.
Speaker 3 (18:46):
That's probably saved your grandpa in the past. It's probably
saved your grandma in the past and your great grandma.
These are I call them negative coping skills that we
have latched onto to move forward and you don't need
and realizing you're doing it.
Speaker 1 (19:02):
If I may, are you familiar with the Willie Lynch letter,
I'm glad that you're not, but I employed to check
it out and for everyone listening, if you're not familiar
with it, check it out. I will say based on
(19:24):
what I know that the Willie Lynch Letter is a
work of fiction, but it feels very true, and it
feels very consistent with the era from which it is
supposed to have come. But it has been regarded commonly
(19:48):
as a work of fiction. So in other words, just
kind of know that as I tell you this, the
Willy Lynch Letter, it's supposed to be the name the
letter written by the man after whom Lynching is named.
So getting hung from a tree they named that after
this guy. That's that's kind of the framing of the letter.
(20:11):
This letter is from a like a master slave owner
that would teach other slave owners how to keep their
slaves from rebelling.
Speaker 2 (20:25):
Okay, got you, I'm here, And.
Speaker 1 (20:29):
Part of this letter it's a speech, but it's been transcribed,
so part of we call it the letter, but it's
really more of a speech. Part of what was what
he was saying was you have to break yeah, oh yeah,
let me get there. But yeah, so you're ahead of me,
so you didn't even have to read it. But following me,
follow because because I got a paint a picture for
(20:51):
them to So he equates breaking the human spirit to
that of breaking a horse. So immediately we're regarded as
beasts and not as homo sapien sai, commodifying of black bodies.
(21:11):
So he describes almost like the people that are reading
this know this describes how to break a horse. So
it doesn't go into details, but basically, you know, stud
the male horse and then the female horse is the
one that's important. Right, So in the in the letter,
he says, so we're going to use the same principles
(21:35):
here to break a slave. Now they don't use the
word slave. They use the time appropriate word that translates
to ignorant person. And then they use some unkind language
to describe black women, but that was the language they
used at the time. Just need to prepare people, because
I do want everyone to read this. So what he
(21:55):
says is, here's the process. In short, find yourself two males.
I'd love to get your thoughts on this. Find yourself
two males, biggest, strongest, you know, males that you can find.
Take one of them, Tie one arm to a horse,
(22:16):
the other arm to a different horse, a leg to
a horse, a leg to another horse. Whip all the
horses so they all run in different directions, and break
his body apart. Make sure all the rest of the
slaves can see this, particularly the woman. Pay attention to her. Yeah,
so now you have a slave ripped apart, the male
figure ripped apart into pieces in front of her, and
(22:38):
she can see it. The next thing you do is
the second male slave, you whip him. Don't kill him,
because it's important. You're gonna need him, but you need
to whip him almost to the point of death. You
need to make sure that the woman watches this. What
(22:58):
she's going to take away from that, this is a
masterful It's evil like it's masterful in the way the
Hitler was masterful. It's evil in the way the Hitler
is evil. So what will happen is she will be
frozen and paralyzed because what once was her protector in
her native land of Africa is laid in pieces in
(23:20):
front of her, and the other one is cowering and bleeding.
And she recognizes in that moment that she no longer
has the capacity to defend herself because that was her
best shot.
Speaker 2 (23:31):
So what she's.
Speaker 1 (23:32):
Going to do is become immediately agreeable, and she's going
to raise her children in reversed roles, so the man
will be submissive and compliant the male child and the
female child will be like her, and we use her
to negotiate with and through and she will step out
(23:55):
in front to protect the male child from the uh,
the the master. Okay, now let me let me, let
me bring it, bring it full circle, let me bring
it to today. Because people have studied this letter. Again,
work of fiction, but it's based on truths. These things
actually happen even if the letter didn't. Right. But you know,
(24:18):
there's this, uh, this caricature of a certain type of
a human being that exists, and it's based on truth,
but I think it's exaggerated very much in media and
television and entertainment and so forth. Of the the the
big black Mama. Right, she ain't gonna take no less
exactly exactly right. Where does that come from? Oh? Okay?
(24:43):
So how are these people raised in reverse roles? Oh okay?
And then another part of the letter, just to go
back real quick, it says, if this is done correctly,
you will create this reframing of their families and the
and their mentality and and this will last for four
hundred years, if not more, because it is a self
(25:06):
refueling cycle. And that's one of the things that kind
of people pointed to to say this is the work
of fiction because words self refueling didn't exist back in
the seventeen.
Speaker 2 (25:15):
Hundred or whatever, but self revealing.
Speaker 1 (25:17):
Yeah. But the point is that the brilliance is still
in the language there and in the story there, and
the idea that those traumas could be passed on is
something that we're just discovering. And what you're talking about,
(25:38):
I think kind of brings that full circle. So that's
why I wanted to mention that he give me your thoughts.
Speaker 3 (25:43):
Oh yeah, oh yeah. So Postly, a Trade Syndrome book
written by doctor Joy Degrue, is literally.
Speaker 2 (25:51):
What you're talking about.
Speaker 3 (25:53):
In that book, she basically talks about how, you know,
why is it that some black moms don't dote on
or talk about their black sons and daughters the way
that other ethnic groups would.
Speaker 2 (26:11):
She ties it all.
Speaker 3 (26:12):
The way back to enslaved times where the matriarch, the
head or the head of the head of the cabin
would actually talk negatively about her kids because she didn't
want them to be sold or she didn't want them
to be you know, moved up essentially in workload. She
(26:32):
wanted them to stay because if you talked about how
great they were, then you know the slave master or
whoever he has out there is going to sell them
for more money or you know, use them, beat them,
do whatever. So it's exactly.
Speaker 1 (26:47):
Yes, I think it's important to say that.
Speaker 3 (26:51):
All so yes, beat them, rape them, essentially, make them
fight each other. We saw that a lot at their parties.
Making one black man fight another black man until the death.
You know, of course, selling them. And I just have
(27:15):
to say, going to the plantation and seeing the plaques
of enslaved people's names with an actual dollar in that
by them is an experience. And you guys see me
taking a lot of deep breasts because I've learned to
regulate my nervous system so I don't move into fight,
flight freeze or fon. And I'm not fully present in
(27:37):
this conversation because even after all this time, I still
understand that my ancestry is this and not by choice,
right or else I would be going to fight flight,
freezer fond right now as well. But yeah, all of
this is generationally passed down. I mean, I tell people
the story all the time about my mom, who's amazing.
I was in fourth grade getting ready to go into kindergarten,
(27:59):
and she said, Hey, Ashley, people are gonna make funny
you because your hair, because your hair stands straight up.
People are gonna make fun of you, or white people,
starry white people. Since we're being completely honest. They're gonna
make funny you because the palms of your hands are white.
They're gonna ask you questions, They're gonna say that you're different.
She's like, but there's nothing wrong with you. She says,
you are made exactly how your maide, and I want
(28:20):
you to stand with your head held high.
Speaker 1 (28:24):
You know.
Speaker 3 (28:24):
So in that conversation that I didn't even really quite
understand what she was talking about, I knew it was
important because she looked straightforward. She had tears in her eyes.
I could see because I was sitting in the back seat.
I could see her in the rearview mirror.
Speaker 2 (28:37):
Right.
Speaker 3 (28:38):
It wasn't a conversation that she wanted to have face
to face, but it was a conversation that she knew
she had to have.
Speaker 2 (28:42):
To prepare me.
Speaker 3 (28:44):
And so even there she broke a dismentional generational pattern.
She could have just sent me and let me kind
of find for myself and figure it out. But she
wanted to prepare me and she wanted me to know
who she was. But in the current stance and the
current society, not everybody gets that because a lot of
(29:06):
us are still in survival unfortunately, because we didn't get
the tools, the generational wealth, or the emotional maturity. So
one of the first things I do with people who
sit on my couch is I give them a bunch
of coping sales. I tell them you're in the right place.
I tell them all the feelings that you're feeling are
completely normal, right because our feelings were weaponized back then,
(29:29):
so it went from us having feelings to having no feelings.
And now we're in this reimagining space where it's okay
if you are the clan in the classroom who has anxiety,
because you're just like that mouse, right you're that third
fourth generational mouse who's jumping, but this time there's no electricity,
(29:50):
so you think you're weird, not weird. I tell people
your body is actually doing exactly what it's supposed to
be doing.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
It's keeping you safe. You just don't know that history
behind it.
Speaker 1 (30:01):
Can I add something else here? All right? For anyone listening,
if you know somebody Black that don't have no reason
to be scared of dogs, and they are scared of dogs.
I think we might have and I never put it
(30:23):
together before, but I think there might be something here right.
This concludes part one of our two part conversation with
Ashley Taylor Barber discussing therapy for Black marriages. Check back
in for part two right here on the Black Information
Network
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