On Part 1 of today's podcast, Hosts Ramses Ja and Q Ward discuss the role of Black History in Black Life and how American slavery differed from slavery elsewhere .
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. Welcome to the QR Code,
where we share a perspective, seek understanding, and shape outcomes.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I go by the name rams' Ja.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
He is rams Jah, I'm Q Warden. It's good to
be talking to you guys again.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, man, and we want you to stick around. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
We are going to do a it's gonna be a
history lesson.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You know, a lot of the stuff we talk about
on the show requires context, and we're not always able
to provide as much context in the moment when we're covering,
you know, stories as we'd like to. So today we're
kind of focused on going back in the time and
providing a baseline, a framework upon which a lot of
(00:46):
the stories that we tell and a lot of things
that you read in the news it can be placed.
And so we want you to stay tuned because we're
going to talk about the role of black history in
black life and why that's so important and how we're
able to connect to it and you know, and the
(01:06):
same is true for other you know, marginalized communities. But
obviously we're able to tell black stories because Kei and
I are both black men. But history really matters and
in a time when history is kind of under tack
in schools, in the public sector and so forth, you know,
we feel like we need to kind of let people
know why that's so important. Were also going to talk
about slavery, I know, but you know, American slavery was
(01:28):
very different from other types of slavery, and as a result,
the outcomes in this country with respect to the former
slave enslaved people is very different. So we're going to
talk about that and make those connections. We're also going
to share a document known as the Willie Lynch Letter,
which does give some insight into the way of thinking
from those times, and we're going to break that down.
(01:50):
And we're also going to talk about why black and
white churches are so segregated, and you know, you wouldn't
really know unless we told you, but there's a reason
for so stay tuned for that and so much more.
But first up, it's time for our feel good feature.
And today's feel good feature comes from ABC News. This
might not sound like it feels good, you know, but
(02:12):
I think it's good. So the remains of nineteen black
Americans whose skulls were taking to Let's big Germany in
the eighteen eighties to perform racial pseudoscience experiments were brought
to New Orleans to be properly memorialized. A repatriation committee
said Thursday Dillard University, the City of New Orleans, and
University Medical Center will hold a New Orleans style jazz
(02:33):
funeral on Saturday morning for the thirteen men, for women,
and two unidentified people. According to doctor Monique Gilroy, the
president of the historically black Louisiana University, quote, they were
people with names, Gilroy said at a press conference on Thursday.
She goes on to say they were people with stories
and history. Some of them had families, mothers, fathers, daughters, sons,
(02:55):
human beings, not specimists, not numbers. Doctor Eva Baum, chair
of the Dillard Universities Cultural Repatriation Committee, said during the
press conference that the University of Letsbig reached out to
the city of New Orleans in twenty twenty three and
offered to repatriate the remains. The Cultural Repatriation Committee formed
in twenty twenty four and looked through the public records
(03:17):
to identify exactly who the people were and establish a genealogy.
According to Bomb, the group has not been able to
identify any descendants. At this point, she noted, Okay, so
why is this good news? These people were taken, These
were enslaved people taken to Germany and studied, I guess,
to try to justify their inferiority, to validate their I guess,
(03:46):
subhuman characteristics, and to justify slavery again using bogus science, pseudoscience.
And now these people will be able to rest, hopefully
near where the rest of their families are resting. And
so we call that good news because it's not nothing,
all right?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I see you, Q.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So I wanted to start today's episode off, you know,
talking about the role of black history and the role
that it plays in black life. And you know, Q
and I obviously we talked about this before beforehand, before
we got to the mics, and you know, I had
a chance to talk to you, and we had some
idea of what we wanted to talk about. But I
think that the best example to let people know how
(04:34):
special history it is to know your history, especially when
so much of it is hidden from you in schools.
You know, you don't get your history. You don't get
you don't have context or again a mental framework of
who you are, where you are. Why you're there, and
what standing you have relative to other people, And it's
(04:56):
very easy to just think, well, this is the way
it's supposed to be because I'm inferior, or because they're superior,
or because I'm not good enough, or they're better than you,
or these sorts of things right, or any number of
things right. But one of the things that Q and
I talked about was, you know what, there was a
moment where we were really able to kind of be
(05:18):
immersed in our history and see the world on the
other side of that experience with a new found clarity
and a new found.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Appreciation for our history, a huge dose of it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And Q and I are very fortunate that we've had
mentors and you know, people that have made sure that
we knew a good amount of our history. But there's
so much of it that we could not know because again,
the history that we are taught in this country, especially
going through the public school system, is really based on
one particular vantage point, and so there are a lot
(05:55):
of gaps where other people have made contributions, other stories
needed to be telled and so forth.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And so.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Q and I were able to visit the National Museum
of African American history and culture in Washington, DC. And
I will let you jump in and start the story
que because this is such a perfect example of why
black history is so important.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Jumping in to start the story is difficult because where
do you begin, Like, we spent seven hours there, Yeah,
I remember, and it wasn't even not almost enough. Yeah
you know what I mean, A yeah, it definitely wasn't enough.
It was an eye opening experience because so much of
(06:45):
that history wasn't like things that we'd never seen or
read or heard before. But being immersed in those exhibits
that are surrounded by people that had a genuine curiosity
because we work in the space is far too often
where the legitimacy of our history, the legitimate of our
self determination, the legitimacy of our rights is up for
(07:09):
debate somehow, and having to spend so much time convincing
people that our lives matter, that we're worth it, that
we're human beings, that we deserve dignity, and that we
deserve the benefit of the doubt being surrounded by people
who were either their whole lives fully immersed in our
(07:31):
history or genuinely curious to know more about it, like
we weren't challenged in that space. There was nobody there
debating with people across the room to prove a point.
There was no one there in bad faith. And again,
spending that much time there, I feel like if such
a person existed, or if such a group existed, we
(07:52):
would across paths with them, because we were you know,
we spent most of our day there and had full
intentions to go spend another seven or twelve hours there,
but we just had other things that we had to
get to, was speaking to kids and traveling to universities,
and it was just a really it was a really
powerful trip for us. But that that museum, and shouts
(08:12):
to the Smithsonian for the work they've always done and
for the work they're still trying to do even while
there are you know, people trying to turn their lights
out literally looking around at things and they coming to life,
you know, looking at you know, where they laid in
mid Till's body. And the thing about history, especially when
(08:38):
the entirety of it happens before you were even in
live in mid Till in my mind my whole life.
Like I knew he died as a young person, I
knew that, but his name lives as an adult somehow
in my history. The same with Martin Luther King Junior
and Malcolm X. These gentlemen didn't make it to be
(08:59):
the age that we are now rams, you know, but
because their entire history happened before we were born, they're
immortalized in this kind of forever grown up space. Yeah,
when they didn't get to live most of the or
almost any of their grown up life. Right, they at
very very young ages, Tupacshakor and you know people like that,
(09:23):
at very young ages met their demise. So the cultural
impact that an emit Till had on my life, my
mind didn't remember that he was really a baby.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, his coffin was really tiny.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Seeing that small casket man was just like, forgive the
term because you know, neither of us drink. But it
was sobering, like it kind of shook me to my
core and like calibrated the idea in my mind, like, yo,
he never got to live his life. And unfortunately, so
(09:58):
much of our story is difficul and painful, but not
all of it. Some of it is heroic and powerfully.
We walked through that entire music section and going up
that spiral staircase slash spiral ramp. We had a moment.
I think it was twelve fifteen, because they brought twelve fifteen.
(10:22):
They what they broke it down. They broke it down.
So a hallway full of strangers without planning to had
all had a moment where Rams and I kind of
distantly heard someone kind of quietly singing, lift every voice
(10:46):
and sing.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It was etched in the wall and they were reading, singing, and.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
With no rehearsal, with no planning, with no text group
chat to make sure that we all make met up
at the same time, we just joined in. And then
one by one or two by two or three by three,
other groups just also joined in. And you heard an
(11:13):
insynct in harmony chorus break out in the hallways of
this museum, singing the Negro National anthem, and no one
shushed us, nobody asked us to keep it down, nobody
told us to stop. Everyone joined in like that's what
they were there for, man, And it gave me chills,
(11:34):
bro Like, I.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I was so happy, and I was also in disbelief,
like it seemed like only in a place like that
could a moment like that happened. And that was like
the highlight of that day at the museum for me.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So for folks that haven't been here, you know, and
we have good relationships with the Civil Rights Museum and
in Tennessee and the NAACP Museum as well, and but this,
this moment was really special. And this museum, the layout
(12:13):
of it is really incredible. So for folks that haven't
been you start in the basement of the museum and
it's like you're in the bowels of a slave ship. Right.
Our history didn't start, you know, in a slave ship,
but you know, in terms of this country, it did.
You start there and you see all the ships and
the manifest and the cargo and how many souls were
(12:35):
on board when it picked up at port in Africa,
and how many souls got dropped off and sometimes you know,
it would say zero souls because everybody on the ship
died in transit, or you know, they threw slaves overboard.
And then you get out of there and you walk
through the timeline of the country. You know, you see,
you know, Harriet Tubman's handkerchief, and you see you know,
(12:59):
things from road rosa parks and bibles from these leaders
and you know, just artifacts from these people that you
hear about. Of course, we get to emmit till you
see the segregation period. You see the buses and the
lunch counters, and you know the whites only segments. You
see Barack Obama, you see Clarence Thomas, someone that of
(13:20):
course we don't politically agree with, but he's black, and
he's in there a little tiny picture relative to everyone else.
But and the thing is I'm set saying these names
and sharing these stories is because these are popular ones
that you might know. But it's the in between that
makes it all live. It's like, Okay, how many people
came before this person to create the world that this
(13:42):
person can thrive in, and the sacrifices and those untold stories,
and it energized me us, It imbued us with, you know,
a renewed sense of passion and purpose. And anybody that
attacks black history I think is in the wrong for that.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So that's the role black history place now.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
A topic that a lot of people really have have
a problem with. You know, why, why why do you
always got to bring up slavery? Slavery was a million
years ago. You didn't pick any cott and you weren't
a slave. I didn't own any slaves? Why is this
the thing?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Why do I owe you reparations? Like? Why why should
I have to subsidize your reparations?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You know, these are conversations that you and I have
from exasperated people are exhausted of talking about it. And listen,
nobody's more exhausted talking about it than us.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I want to say that slavery is not something that
it's very difficult to be proud of coming from slaves.
You know what I'm saying. There's there's not there's no
dignity in that. The resilience of the formerly enslaved people,
that's definitely something to be proud of. I am to
be proud of that. I hope to continue in that legacy.
(15:03):
But that's not a flex to say I came from
some slaves. So bringing it up is not is you know,
for anything. It's context okay, but a lot of people
don't get it. And one of the things that people
say is like, look, man, slaves, Jewish people were slaves.
There's slavery all around the world. And one of the
things I'd like to do today is kind of paint
(15:25):
a picture of how slavery in this country was different
than slavery elsewhere. As a result, the black people in
this country have very different experiences and very different outcomes
relative to black people in other places, you know what
I mean, certainly in Africa. So when people say black
(15:47):
people are this way because of whatever, that kind of
breaks down once you leave the borders of the United States,
which then implies that there are systems in the United
States that are affecting black people specifically and uniquely than.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Other parts of the world.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How did this come about, Well, it is true that
slaves were purchased from Africans.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Now, not all.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Slaves were purchased, but slaves were purchased from Africans. So
that is something that you know, we'll say. But one
of the things that you know, we've pushed back on,
and Q you can jump in if if you have
anything to add here.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But one of the things we've pushed back on is.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Like if you change the name or change slave in
your mind, change it to like child slave. Okay, still slavery.
If you think slavery is wrong and blah blah blah,
to help it live, to help to imbue it with
some humanity, think child slave.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So we're going to read this scene. Child slaves were
purchased from Africa. You know, people like to say, well,
they sold you guys into slavery, so you know it's
their fault, right, Well, who buys slaves? Who buys child slave?
You know they bought children too, they bought women. Who
buys those people? Are those the good guys?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And so they use this, well, the slaves were purchased
far and square to try to distance.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Themselves from responsibility.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
If you went and bought a human being, you're the
bad guy. You're not supposed to do that, immortal right,
and of course you're not supposed to sell it. But
one of the differences about Africans is in Africa, when
tribes went to war and they conquered other tribes, when
they had thieves, when they had criminals, those people would
become enslaved, but you know their children would not be enslaved,
(17:38):
you know what I mean. Those people would be enslaved,
but they would not be permanently enslaved. It would be
like a sentence and different depending on where you went.
Some of those slaves were integrated into the society you
could marry into, you know, a society or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A conquered tribe whatever, very different than in the United States. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Also, because of the economics of slavery, it kind of
created a whole new economic institution. So tribes started going
to war solely so that they could get more slaves
to sell to the British, sell to the Americas.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So the influence of white folks, if we're talking black
and white on the slave trade, cannot be overstated. Right,
let's talk about this. We talked about slaves in Africa
living within a more flexible kinship groups system and being
(18:43):
able to marry in the families. In the United States,
slavery was based on race.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's not true in Africa. Okay, it never How could
it be true? Right, Oh, there was slavery in Africa.
They just just the slaves brought them here. No, it
was not based on race. You could not be born
in Okay, you're darker skin, so you're a slave. That
was not how that worked. That was an American invention, Okay.
(19:15):
And just another twisting of the knife here is that.
You know, at the end of the day, at least
insofar as Brits were concerned, reparations were paid to the
slave holders in the Americas. Reparations were paid to the slaveholders.
Reparations have never been paid to slaves, well formerly enslave.
They're descendants, none of that, right, So people they have
this argument rather about slavery and you know the effects
(19:42):
of the implications of it. They tried to distance it
was a million years ago. It means nothing. Now, you
didn't pick cotton, I didn't own a slave. And then
they push back on the reparations conversation. They have to
do so much in the way of mental gymnastics to
get to that point, because I would imagine and you
have to because if you're confronted with the fact that, okay,
(20:03):
so the slave owners got reparations, the people that did
the work didn't get anything. And this country has said that, okay,
that's wrong, we shouldn't have done that. And there was
a program in place to give the slaves forty acres
and a mule, and it was scrapped once Lincoln got assassinated.
(20:23):
So this country has never really reconciled with that great
sin of enslaving human beings, nor has it really honestly
confronted the legacy of slavery. The Jim Crows, the Black Codes,
the redlining, you know, the systemic oppression, the unfair dissemination
(20:44):
of the GI bill, just the second class citizenship, the
relegation of black folks to a second class citizenship, going
all the way back, all the way up until modern times.
We're talking about the war on drugs, unfair housing, we're
talking about, you know, environmental racism, We're talking about you know,
(21:05):
health care outcomes, you know, on and on and on,
where it's like, okay, these are systemic, systemic, some visible,
some invisible. We talked about invisible systems. White women being
able to call the police on a black man even
if there was no black man present, pick up somebody
to blame. They know that system exists, which is why
they can always blame a black man and get sympathy.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
It's an invisible system and the failure.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
To acknowledge that is something that continues to work against us.
And I could make an argument and tie that directly
back to slavery and it wouldn't be difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They've always pitted.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Black men versus white women, as though somehow white women
were vulnerable and we were somehow criminal. But you know,
go to Africa, where everybody's African, and there's no more
criminal people relative to other people. Right. You could argue
that poor people engage in criminal behavior, but that's true anywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I know I'm talking a lot. I just wanted to
paint a full picture. Q.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I know you got like a couple of minutes, but
I didn't want to talk that all the way up,
but I wanted to get those points out.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
No, all of it was necessary.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You know, some people, believe it or not, will be
having this conversation for the first time with us, or
you know, learning some of these things for the first
time with us, because slavery is an idea for some people,
especially younger people, you know, born in the last thirty years.
Slavery does feel like it was five hundred years ago,
you know what I mean. It does feel like it's
(22:28):
seven generations ago. But you know we're talking about two lifetimes.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, you know how.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Much wealth did on eighteen well, no, no, two lifetimes
since since the legal end of it, how long it
lasted much longer. So the amount of wealth that was,
the amount of wealth and land and the head start
they got from slavery happening is one thing. But I
mean how long ago slavery was relative to people's idea.
It's so much further back. She talking about eighteen sixty five,
(23:01):
when juneteenth had the last enslaved learned that they had
been free already. My mother was born in nineteen forty five, right,
so say her mother was born in nineteen twenty, Say
her mother was born in nineteen hundred. One more relative
(23:23):
was a slave for sure. So it's like these systems
that existed were not eons ago. And then the effects
of slavery we felt that until what fifty years ago,
sixty years ago?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It was as Jim Crow last did y.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, as an example, my mother, who was born in
nineteen forty five, when she turned eighteen couldn't vote because
it was illegal. Your mother, my mom, not my grandma,
not her mom, not her grandma, my mother, my pastor.
That's how real and close the impact of American slavery is.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And you know, in talking about the legacy of that,
people need to know that racism is expensive. So, you know,
for today's better do better. I feel like this should
go out to all of us. You know, we all
need to do better. Right, Racism is expensive, and it's
(24:29):
more than we need to do. More than just not
be racist, We need to adopt anti racist policies. I'm
going to share a bit from the Grio. Maryland Governor
Wes Moore is on the front lines and the fight
to close the racial wealth gap in America, and he
hopes his actions in his state will serve as a
model across the country.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Quote. Let's be clear, the racial wealth.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Gap has cost this country about sixteen trillion dollars in
GDP over the past two decades. This from More, who
unveiled the latest actions he's taking to close the racial
wealth gap in Maryland, goes on to say, racism is expensive.
Bigotry is expensive. America's only black governor told the Grio
goes on to say, and the reason that we're moving
to be able to address the racial wealth gap by
(25:09):
focusing on both assets and access is because it's actually
going to help our economy.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Unquote.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
More announced nearly seven thousand additional state pardons for simple
marijuana possession and the first batch of designated just communities
to receive priority funding opportunities for housing and community development,
many of which are historically black and experienced decades of
disinvestment as a result of racially discriminatory practices like redlining.
(25:36):
And urban highway construction. That's another thing people need to
look at. Just decimated black communities, and every major city
is the highway system.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
All right.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Governor More emphasized that repairing the harm to black communities
caused by these practices and ending the existing ones like
unfair housing appraisals, is critical to building black wealth.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's one of the greatest wealth thefts that we have
seen in our nation's history. More continued, Quote, you can
have more people becoming homeowners, you can have more home
value being increased. You can have more entrepreneurs and black
entre more entrepreneurs and black entrepreneurs who are part of
a larger landscape that is going to grow the entire
economy unquote. The governor said that anyone serious about addressing
(26:19):
the well documented historic ills against Black Americans has a
moral obligation to be able to address it and help
fix it. This is why we all need to be
anti racist, Okay, all right. Despite these worries, the governor
told the Grio, quote, the state of Black America is resilient.
Tell me when has it not been challenging, Tell me
when it's been easy. More said of the history of
(26:39):
African American struggle dating back to their enslavement in the
United States through the post reconstruction in Jim crow eras
those I want to say, the reason that we are
still here, the reason that we still have the freedoms
that we have and the rights that are protected in
the way that they are, is because there are people
who fought on our behalf quote more reminded. So that's
(27:01):
another thing, you know, and you and I have talked
about this in past EPISODESQ that racism, whether it's acknowledged
explicitly or whether it's you know, people just like try
to ignore it, it is still ugly and it is
still costly. Racism doesn't just hurt ethnic minorities. Racism actually
(27:27):
hurts everybody. But that sense of superiority over another group
of people is intoxicating. I would imagine, you know, I
haven't felt that feeling before, but i'd imagine it's something
that's addictive. But in terms of black and white, we
have never come across you and I both as much
of these papers and newspaper and articles and stuff, and
(27:51):
you know, university documents and studies that we have to
go through, have never come across one stitch of information
that shows the fiscal benefit.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
A fiscal benefit to racism, not one.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And we've often come across, you know, how it costs
black people certainly, Hispanic people certainly, you know other marginal
like gay people, women certainly. But we've also come across
how it hurts white communities certainly. And so we all
need to be a little bit more aggressive in our approach,
(28:27):
and you know, shout out to people that are doing something.
Wes More, of course is somebody that he's not doing nothing.
So you know, you do what you can right. Anything
to add here, Q otherwise I'll stick it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, there's not much to add man. Racism has shown
us that it's more powerful and its ability to create
solidarity than anything else, than ethnic group, than gender, than religion,
than everything. Christians will vote against Christian beliefs to uphold racism.
Poor people will keep themselves poor as long as they
(29:01):
can keep other people poor too.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Like it.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
It is probably the most powerful tie that binds the most.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
People that I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
We see people organize, vote, march, and speak out against
their own best interest as long as I can hurt
someone else.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That doesn't look like me, And that is a very.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Man kind of insane thing to process in real time
because we're watching it happen still today.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
You know. The crazy part about this is that for
the people that.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Don't know that, they really think we're in a post
racial society, if they just took the time to dig
into these weeds the way that we have to in
order to do our shows, they would see that, hey,
pushing back against what we do find in those weeds
would actually make everyone's life better.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know. And it doesn't like I wouldn't lie to y'all.
I just wouldn't do it. So stick around. We got
more coming up.
Broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. Welcome to the QR Code,
where we share a perspective, seek understanding, and shape outcomes.
Speaker 2 (00:07):
I go by the name rams' Ja.
Speaker 3 (00:08):
He is rams Jah, I'm Q Warden. It's good to
be talking to you guys again.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Yeah, man, and we want you to stick around. Today.
Speaker 2 (00:17):
We are going to do a it's gonna be a
history lesson.
Speaker 1 (00:22):
You know, a lot of the stuff we talk about
on the show requires context, and we're not always able
to provide as much context in the moment when we're covering,
you know, stories as we'd like to. So today we're
kind of focused on going back in the time and
providing a baseline, a framework upon which a lot of
(00:46):
the stories that we tell and a lot of things
that you read in the news it can be placed.
And so we want you to stay tuned because we're
going to talk about the role of black history in
black life and why that's so important and how we're
able to connect to it and you know, and the
(01:06):
same is true for other you know, marginalized communities. But
obviously we're able to tell black stories because Kei and
I are both black men. But history really matters and
in a time when history is kind of under tack
in schools, in the public sector and so forth, you know,
we feel like we need to kind of let people
know why that's so important. Were also going to talk
about slavery, I know, but you know, American slavery was
(01:28):
very different from other types of slavery, and as a result,
the outcomes in this country with respect to the former
slave enslaved people is very different. So we're going to
talk about that and make those connections. We're also going
to share a document known as the Willie Lynch Letter,
which does give some insight into the way of thinking
from those times, and we're going to break that down.
(01:50):
And we're also going to talk about why black and
white churches are so segregated, and you know, you wouldn't
really know unless we told you, but there's a reason
for so stay tuned for that and so much more.
But first up, it's time for our feel good feature.
And today's feel good feature comes from ABC News. This
might not sound like it feels good, you know, but
(02:12):
I think it's good. So the remains of nineteen black
Americans whose skulls were taking to Let's big Germany in
the eighteen eighties to perform racial pseudoscience experiments were brought
to New Orleans to be properly memorialized. A repatriation committee
said Thursday Dillard University, the City of New Orleans, and
University Medical Center will hold a New Orleans style jazz
(02:33):
funeral on Saturday morning for the thirteen men, for women,
and two unidentified people. According to doctor Monique Gilroy, the
president of the historically black Louisiana University, quote, they were
people with names, Gilroy said at a press conference on Thursday.
She goes on to say they were people with stories
and history. Some of them had families, mothers, fathers, daughters, sons,
(02:55):
human beings, not specimists, not numbers. Doctor Eva Baum, chair
of the Dillard Universities Cultural Repatriation Committee, said during the
press conference that the University of Letsbig reached out to
the city of New Orleans in twenty twenty three and
offered to repatriate the remains. The Cultural Repatriation Committee formed
in twenty twenty four and looked through the public records
(03:17):
to identify exactly who the people were and establish a genealogy.
According to Bomb, the group has not been able to
identify any descendants. At this point, she noted, Okay, so
why is this good news? These people were taken, These
were enslaved people taken to Germany and studied, I guess,
to try to justify their inferiority, to validate their I guess,
(03:46):
subhuman characteristics, and to justify slavery again using bogus science, pseudoscience.
And now these people will be able to rest, hopefully
near where the rest of their families are resting. And
so we call that good news because it's not nothing,
all right?
Speaker 2 (04:03):
I see you, Q.
Speaker 1 (04:06):
So I wanted to start today's episode off, you know,
talking about the role of black history and the role
that it plays in black life. And you know, Q
and I obviously we talked about this before beforehand, before
we got to the mics, and you know, I had
a chance to talk to you, and we had some
idea of what we wanted to talk about. But I
think that the best example to let people know how
(04:34):
special history it is to know your history, especially when
so much of it is hidden from you in schools.
You know, you don't get your history. You don't get
you don't have context or again a mental framework of
who you are, where you are. Why you're there, and
what standing you have relative to other people, And it's
(04:56):
very easy to just think, well, this is the way
it's supposed to be because I'm inferior, or because they're superior,
or because I'm not good enough, or they're better than you,
or these sorts of things right, or any number of
things right. But one of the things that Q and
I talked about was, you know what, there was a
moment where we were really able to kind of be
(05:18):
immersed in our history and see the world on the
other side of that experience with a new found clarity
and a new found.
Speaker 2 (05:29):
Appreciation for our history, a huge dose of it.
Speaker 1 (05:32):
And Q and I are very fortunate that we've had
mentors and you know, people that have made sure that
we knew a good amount of our history. But there's
so much of it that we could not know because again,
the history that we are taught in this country, especially
going through the public school system, is really based on
one particular vantage point, and so there are a lot
(05:55):
of gaps where other people have made contributions, other stories
needed to be telled and so forth.
Speaker 2 (06:01):
And so.
Speaker 1 (06:04):
Q and I were able to visit the National Museum
of African American history and culture in Washington, DC. And
I will let you jump in and start the story
que because this is such a perfect example of why
black history is so important.
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Jumping in to start the story is difficult because where
do you begin, Like, we spent seven hours there, Yeah,
I remember, and it wasn't even not almost enough. Yeah
you know what I mean, A yeah, it definitely wasn't enough.
It was an eye opening experience because so much of
(06:45):
that history wasn't like things that we'd never seen or
read or heard before. But being immersed in those exhibits
that are surrounded by people that had a genuine curiosity
because we work in the space is far too often
where the legitimacy of our history, the legitimate of our
self determination, the legitimacy of our rights is up for
(07:09):
debate somehow, and having to spend so much time convincing
people that our lives matter, that we're worth it, that
we're human beings, that we deserve dignity, and that we
deserve the benefit of the doubt being surrounded by people
who were either their whole lives fully immersed in our
(07:31):
history or genuinely curious to know more about it, like
we weren't challenged in that space. There was nobody there
debating with people across the room to prove a point.
There was no one there in bad faith. And again,
spending that much time there, I feel like if such
a person existed, or if such a group existed, we
(07:52):
would across paths with them, because we were you know,
we spent most of our day there and had full
intentions to go spend another seven or twelve hours there,
but we just had other things that we had to
get to, was speaking to kids and traveling to universities,
and it was just a really it was a really
powerful trip for us. But that that museum, and shouts
(08:12):
to the Smithsonian for the work they've always done and
for the work they're still trying to do even while
there are you know, people trying to turn their lights
out literally looking around at things and they coming to life,
you know, looking at you know, where they laid in
mid Till's body. And the thing about history, especially when
(08:38):
the entirety of it happens before you were even in
live in mid Till in my mind my whole life.
Like I knew he died as a young person, I
knew that, but his name lives as an adult somehow
in my history. The same with Martin Luther King Junior
and Malcolm X. These gentlemen didn't make it to be
(08:59):
the age that we are now rams, you know, but
because their entire history happened before we were born, they're
immortalized in this kind of forever grown up space. Yeah,
when they didn't get to live most of the or
almost any of their grown up life. Right, they at
very very young ages, Tupacshakor and you know people like that,
(09:23):
at very young ages met their demise. So the cultural
impact that an emit Till had on my life, my
mind didn't remember that he was really a baby.
Speaker 2 (09:34):
Yeah, his coffin was really tiny.
Speaker 3 (09:37):
Seeing that small casket man was just like, forgive the
term because you know, neither of us drink. But it
was sobering, like it kind of shook me to my
core and like calibrated the idea in my mind, like, yo,
he never got to live his life. And unfortunately, so
(09:58):
much of our story is difficul and painful, but not
all of it. Some of it is heroic and powerfully.
We walked through that entire music section and going up
that spiral staircase slash spiral ramp. We had a moment.
I think it was twelve fifteen, because they brought twelve fifteen.
(10:22):
They what they broke it down. They broke it down.
So a hallway full of strangers without planning to had
all had a moment where Rams and I kind of
distantly heard someone kind of quietly singing, lift every voice
(10:46):
and sing.
Speaker 2 (10:47):
It was etched in the wall and they were reading, singing, and.
Speaker 3 (10:51):
With no rehearsal, with no planning, with no text group
chat to make sure that we all make met up
at the same time, we just joined in. And then
one by one or two by two or three by three,
other groups just also joined in. And you heard an
(11:13):
insynct in harmony chorus break out in the hallways of
this museum, singing the Negro National anthem, and no one
shushed us, nobody asked us to keep it down, nobody
told us to stop. Everyone joined in like that's what
they were there for, man, And it gave me chills,
(11:34):
bro Like, I.
Speaker 2 (11:36):
Enjoyed it so much.
Speaker 3 (11:37):
I was so happy, and I was also in disbelief,
like it seemed like only in a place like that
could a moment like that happened. And that was like
the highlight of that day at the museum for me.
Speaker 1 (11:51):
So for folks that haven't been here, you know, and
we have good relationships with the Civil Rights Museum and
in Tennessee and the NAACP Museum as well, and but this,
this moment was really special. And this museum, the layout
(12:13):
of it is really incredible. So for folks that haven't
been you start in the basement of the museum and
it's like you're in the bowels of a slave ship. Right.
Our history didn't start, you know, in a slave ship,
but you know, in terms of this country, it did.
You start there and you see all the ships and
the manifest and the cargo and how many souls were
(12:35):
on board when it picked up at port in Africa,
and how many souls got dropped off and sometimes you know,
it would say zero souls because everybody on the ship
died in transit, or you know, they threw slaves overboard.
And then you get out of there and you walk
through the timeline of the country. You know, you see,
you know, Harriet Tubman's handkerchief, and you see you know,
(12:59):
things from road rosa parks and bibles from these leaders
and you know, just artifacts from these people that you
hear about. Of course, we get to emmit till you
see the segregation period. You see the buses and the
lunch counters, and you know the whites only segments. You
see Barack Obama, you see Clarence Thomas, someone that of
(13:20):
course we don't politically agree with, but he's black, and
he's in there a little tiny picture relative to everyone else.
But and the thing is I'm set saying these names
and sharing these stories is because these are popular ones
that you might know. But it's the in between that
makes it all live. It's like, Okay, how many people
came before this person to create the world that this
(13:42):
person can thrive in, and the sacrifices and those untold stories,
and it energized me us, It imbued us with, you know,
a renewed sense of passion and purpose. And anybody that
attacks black history I think is in the wrong for that.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So that's the role black history place now.
Speaker 1 (14:06):
A topic that a lot of people really have have
a problem with. You know, why, why why do you
always got to bring up slavery? Slavery was a million
years ago. You didn't pick any cott and you weren't
a slave. I didn't own any slaves? Why is this
the thing?
Speaker 2 (14:20):
Why do I owe you reparations? Like? Why why should
I have to subsidize your reparations?
Speaker 1 (14:25):
You know, these are conversations that you and I have
from exasperated people are exhausted of talking about it. And listen,
nobody's more exhausted talking about it than us.
Speaker 2 (14:38):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (14:41):
I want to say that slavery is not something that
it's very difficult to be proud of coming from slaves.
You know what I'm saying. There's there's not there's no
dignity in that. The resilience of the formerly enslaved people,
that's definitely something to be proud of. I am to
be proud of that. I hope to continue in that legacy.
(15:03):
But that's not a flex to say I came from
some slaves. So bringing it up is not is you know,
for anything. It's context okay, but a lot of people
don't get it. And one of the things that people
say is like, look, man, slaves, Jewish people were slaves.
There's slavery all around the world. And one of the
things I'd like to do today is kind of paint
(15:25):
a picture of how slavery in this country was different
than slavery elsewhere. As a result, the black people in
this country have very different experiences and very different outcomes
relative to black people in other places, you know what
I mean, certainly in Africa. So when people say black
(15:47):
people are this way because of whatever, that kind of
breaks down once you leave the borders of the United States,
which then implies that there are systems in the United
States that are affecting black people specifically and uniquely than.
Speaker 2 (16:02):
Other parts of the world.
Speaker 1 (16:03):
How did this come about, Well, it is true that
slaves were purchased from Africans.
Speaker 2 (16:11):
Now, not all.
Speaker 1 (16:12):
Slaves were purchased, but slaves were purchased from Africans. So
that is something that you know, we'll say. But one
of the things that you know, we've pushed back on,
and Q you can jump in if if you have
anything to add here.
Speaker 2 (16:25):
But one of the things we've pushed back on is.
Speaker 1 (16:28):
Like if you change the name or change slave in
your mind, change it to like child slave. Okay, still slavery.
If you think slavery is wrong and blah blah blah,
to help it live, to help to imbue it with
some humanity, think child slave.
Speaker 2 (16:44):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (16:44):
So we're going to read this scene. Child slaves were
purchased from Africa. You know, people like to say, well,
they sold you guys into slavery, so you know it's
their fault, right, Well, who buys slaves? Who buys child slave?
You know they bought children too, they bought women. Who
buys those people? Are those the good guys?
Speaker 2 (17:05):
Right?
Speaker 1 (17:06):
And so they use this, well, the slaves were purchased
far and square to try to distance.
Speaker 2 (17:10):
Themselves from responsibility.
Speaker 1 (17:12):
If you went and bought a human being, you're the
bad guy. You're not supposed to do that, immortal right,
and of course you're not supposed to sell it. But
one of the differences about Africans is in Africa, when
tribes went to war and they conquered other tribes, when
they had thieves, when they had criminals, those people would
become enslaved, but you know their children would not be enslaved,
(17:38):
you know what I mean. Those people would be enslaved,
but they would not be permanently enslaved. It would be
like a sentence and different depending on where you went.
Some of those slaves were integrated into the society you
could marry into, you know, a society or whatever.
Speaker 2 (17:55):
A conquered tribe whatever, very different than in the United States. Right.
Speaker 1 (18:03):
Also, because of the economics of slavery, it kind of
created a whole new economic institution. So tribes started going
to war solely so that they could get more slaves
to sell to the British, sell to the Americas.
Speaker 2 (18:20):
Right.
Speaker 1 (18:21):
So the influence of white folks, if we're talking black
and white on the slave trade, cannot be overstated. Right,
let's talk about this. We talked about slaves in Africa
living within a more flexible kinship groups system and being
(18:43):
able to marry in the families. In the United States,
slavery was based on race.
Speaker 2 (18:50):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (18:50):
That's not true in Africa. Okay, it never How could
it be true? Right, Oh, there was slavery in Africa.
They just just the slaves brought them here. No, it
was not based on race. You could not be born
in Okay, you're darker skin, so you're a slave. That
was not how that worked. That was an American invention, Okay.
(19:15):
And just another twisting of the knife here is that.
You know, at the end of the day, at least
insofar as Brits were concerned, reparations were paid to the
slave holders in the Americas. Reparations were paid to the slaveholders.
Reparations have never been paid to slaves, well formerly enslave.
They're descendants, none of that, right, So people they have
this argument rather about slavery and you know the effects
(19:42):
of the implications of it. They tried to distance it
was a million years ago. It means nothing. Now, you
didn't pick cotton, I didn't own a slave. And then
they push back on the reparations conversation. They have to
do so much in the way of mental gymnastics to
get to that point, because I would imagine and you
have to because if you're confronted with the fact that, okay,
(20:03):
so the slave owners got reparations, the people that did
the work didn't get anything. And this country has said that, okay,
that's wrong, we shouldn't have done that. And there was
a program in place to give the slaves forty acres
and a mule, and it was scrapped once Lincoln got assassinated.
(20:23):
So this country has never really reconciled with that great
sin of enslaving human beings, nor has it really honestly
confronted the legacy of slavery. The Jim Crows, the Black Codes,
the redlining, you know, the systemic oppression, the unfair dissemination
(20:44):
of the GI bill, just the second class citizenship, the
relegation of black folks to a second class citizenship, going
all the way back, all the way up until modern times.
We're talking about the war on drugs, unfair housing, we're
talking about, you know, environmental racism, We're talking about you know,
(21:05):
health care outcomes, you know, on and on and on,
where it's like, okay, these are systemic, systemic, some visible,
some invisible. We talked about invisible systems. White women being
able to call the police on a black man even
if there was no black man present, pick up somebody
to blame. They know that system exists, which is why
they can always blame a black man and get sympathy.
Speaker 2 (21:25):
It's an invisible system and the failure.
Speaker 1 (21:27):
To acknowledge that is something that continues to work against us.
And I could make an argument and tie that directly
back to slavery and it wouldn't be difficult.
Speaker 2 (21:38):
They've always pitted.
Speaker 1 (21:39):
Black men versus white women, as though somehow white women
were vulnerable and we were somehow criminal. But you know,
go to Africa, where everybody's African, and there's no more
criminal people relative to other people. Right. You could argue
that poor people engage in criminal behavior, but that's true anywhere.
Speaker 2 (21:57):
I know I'm talking a lot. I just wanted to
paint a full picture. Q.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
I know you got like a couple of minutes, but
I didn't want to talk that all the way up,
but I wanted to get those points out.
Speaker 2 (22:06):
No, all of it was necessary.
Speaker 3 (22:08):
You know, some people, believe it or not, will be
having this conversation for the first time with us, or
you know, learning some of these things for the first
time with us, because slavery is an idea for some people,
especially younger people, you know, born in the last thirty years.
Slavery does feel like it was five hundred years ago,
you know what I mean. It does feel like it's
(22:28):
seven generations ago. But you know we're talking about two lifetimes.
Speaker 2 (22:37):
Yeah, you know how.
Speaker 3 (22:39):
Much wealth did on eighteen well, no, no, two lifetimes
since since the legal end of it, how long it
lasted much longer. So the amount of wealth that was,
the amount of wealth and land and the head start
they got from slavery happening is one thing. But I
mean how long ago slavery was relative to people's idea.
It's so much further back. She talking about eighteen sixty five,
(23:01):
when juneteenth had the last enslaved learned that they had
been free already. My mother was born in nineteen forty five, right,
so say her mother was born in nineteen twenty, Say
her mother was born in nineteen hundred. One more relative
(23:23):
was a slave for sure. So it's like these systems
that existed were not eons ago. And then the effects
of slavery we felt that until what fifty years ago,
sixty years ago?
Speaker 2 (23:41):
It was as Jim Crow last did y.
Speaker 3 (23:43):
Yeah, as an example, my mother, who was born in
nineteen forty five, when she turned eighteen couldn't vote because
it was illegal. Your mother, my mom, not my grandma,
not her mom, not her grandma, my mother, my pastor.
That's how real and close the impact of American slavery is.
Speaker 1 (24:06):
And you know, in talking about the legacy of that,
people need to know that racism is expensive. So, you know,
for today's better do better. I feel like this should
go out to all of us. You know, we all
need to do better. Right, Racism is expensive, and it's
(24:29):
more than we need to do. More than just not
be racist, We need to adopt anti racist policies. I'm
going to share a bit from the Grio. Maryland Governor
Wes Moore is on the front lines and the fight
to close the racial wealth gap in America, and he
hopes his actions in his state will serve as a
model across the country.
Speaker 2 (24:45):
Quote. Let's be clear, the racial wealth.
Speaker 1 (24:47):
Gap has cost this country about sixteen trillion dollars in
GDP over the past two decades. This from More, who
unveiled the latest actions he's taking to close the racial
wealth gap in Maryland, goes on to say, racism is expensive.
Bigotry is expensive. America's only black governor told the Grio
goes on to say, and the reason that we're moving
to be able to address the racial wealth gap by
(25:09):
focusing on both assets and access is because it's actually
going to help our economy.
Speaker 2 (25:14):
Unquote.
Speaker 1 (25:15):
More announced nearly seven thousand additional state pardons for simple
marijuana possession and the first batch of designated just communities
to receive priority funding opportunities for housing and community development,
many of which are historically black and experienced decades of
disinvestment as a result of racially discriminatory practices like redlining.
(25:36):
And urban highway construction. That's another thing people need to
look at. Just decimated black communities, and every major city
is the highway system.
Speaker 2 (25:46):
All right.
Speaker 1 (25:46):
Governor More emphasized that repairing the harm to black communities
caused by these practices and ending the existing ones like
unfair housing appraisals, is critical to building black wealth.
Speaker 2 (25:55):
Quote.
Speaker 1 (25:55):
It's one of the greatest wealth thefts that we have
seen in our nation's history. More continued, Quote, you can
have more people becoming homeowners, you can have more home
value being increased. You can have more entrepreneurs and black
entre more entrepreneurs and black entrepreneurs who are part of
a larger landscape that is going to grow the entire
economy unquote. The governor said that anyone serious about addressing
(26:19):
the well documented historic ills against Black Americans has a
moral obligation to be able to address it and help
fix it. This is why we all need to be
anti racist, Okay, all right. Despite these worries, the governor
told the Grio, quote, the state of Black America is resilient.
Tell me when has it not been challenging, Tell me
when it's been easy. More said of the history of
(26:39):
African American struggle dating back to their enslavement in the
United States through the post reconstruction in Jim crow eras
those I want to say, the reason that we are
still here, the reason that we still have the freedoms
that we have and the rights that are protected in
the way that they are, is because there are people
who fought on our behalf quote more reminded. So that's
(27:01):
another thing, you know, and you and I have talked
about this in past EPISODESQ that racism, whether it's acknowledged
explicitly or whether it's you know, people just like try
to ignore it, it is still ugly and it is
still costly. Racism doesn't just hurt ethnic minorities. Racism actually
(27:27):
hurts everybody. But that sense of superiority over another group
of people is intoxicating. I would imagine, you know, I
haven't felt that feeling before, but i'd imagine it's something
that's addictive. But in terms of black and white, we
have never come across you and I both as much
of these papers and newspaper and articles and stuff, and
(27:51):
you know, university documents and studies that we have to
go through, have never come across one stitch of information
that shows the fiscal benefit.
Speaker 2 (28:00):
A fiscal benefit to racism, not one.
Speaker 1 (28:05):
And we've often come across, you know, how it costs
black people certainly, Hispanic people certainly, you know other marginal
like gay people, women certainly. But we've also come across
how it hurts white communities certainly. And so we all
need to be a little bit more aggressive in our approach,
(28:27):
and you know, shout out to people that are doing something.
Wes More, of course is somebody that he's not doing nothing.
So you know, you do what you can right. Anything
to add here, Q otherwise I'll stick it.
Speaker 3 (28:41):
No, there's not much to add man. Racism has shown
us that it's more powerful and its ability to create
solidarity than anything else, than ethnic group, than gender, than religion,
than everything. Christians will vote against Christian beliefs to uphold racism.
Poor people will keep themselves poor as long as they
(29:01):
can keep other people poor too.
Speaker 2 (29:04):
Like it.
Speaker 3 (29:05):
It is probably the most powerful tie that binds the most.
Speaker 2 (29:08):
People that I've ever seen.
Speaker 3 (29:10):
We see people organize, vote, march, and speak out against
their own best interest as long as I can hurt
someone else.
Speaker 2 (29:16):
That doesn't look like me, And that is a very.
Speaker 3 (29:21):
Man kind of insane thing to process in real time
because we're watching it happen still today.
Speaker 2 (29:28):
You know. The crazy part about this is that for
the people that.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
Don't know that, they really think we're in a post
racial society, if they just took the time to dig
into these weeds the way that we have to in
order to do our shows, they would see that, hey,
pushing back against what we do find in those weeds
would actually make everyone's life better.
Speaker 2 (29:51):
You know. And it doesn't like I wouldn't lie to y'all.
I just wouldn't do it. So stick around. We got
more coming up.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com