June 24, 2025 • 28 mins
On part 2 of today's podcast, Hosts Ramses Ja and Q Ward discuss the root causes of segregation between Black and White churches
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Speaker 1 (00:00):
Still broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. This is the
QR code where we share perspective, seek understanding, and shape outcomes.
I am your host, Ramsey's job, he.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Is your host. I just work here. My name is
q Ward.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Q is your host too, And make no mistake, And
you know, we are in the middle of our.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
History episode.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I guess we'll call it that, where we're kind of
looking back and trying to provide context in lea foundation
for the conversations that we have had and will have.
And we're hoping that in doing this, you know, people
will have a stronger framework in which, you know, receiving
information will work a little bit better. We're still going
to be talking about the Willie Lynch letter. If you
(00:45):
haven't heard of that before, it's stay tuned. It is
a riveting read. But we're also going to ask the
question why are black and white churches so segregated on
Sunday morning? And we're going to dig into the history
of that too. But before we get there, it is
time for Q words clapback. And you know you said
something to me, Q You said, illegal is not a race.
(01:11):
So what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You know, compassion doesn't need a green card or a
visa or the right passport or the right documents, and
our countries kind of prevailing view on immigration and the
cruelty of that view is how for you know, decades now,
(01:36):
people have been able to galvanize a base to vote
for them or against them using their ideas of how
aggressive and cruel we should be to immigrants. And it's
an interesting thing to observe, right, because if you notice
it when they try to use the myth of legality
(01:56):
with regards to immigrants. Over our country's history, people have
used the law and sometimes even the Bible to mask
blatant cruelty, and they'll know argue to their base, or
actually argue more to people like us that hey, it's
(02:17):
not about race, it's not about hatred. We're not stoking fear.
We're just upholding the law. Sure, but somehow that obsession
with law only seems to be pointed at people that
cross the border who have melanated brown skin. Funny how
(02:37):
that continues to be the truth. Yeah, So, Ramses and
I have had conversations with people who will tell us hey, man,
if people will just come here the right way, you
know what I mean? Like everything will be fine, and Ramsey,
I love to ask, and I know this is q's clapback,
but what's the right way? I mean, because we know
(03:01):
the processes, but that process is not checkbox A checkbox
B Welcome to America. Like, that's not how it works.
It's kind of based on the lawyer you hire and
the court you go to in the state. And yeah,
you know what I mean. So for some people, that
legal pathway could take a decade or longer.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I knowed somebody was two decades.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For some people, there is no straightforward legal pathway period.
Some people are fleeing poverty stricken, violent, scary places, and
they're supposed to be, based on the ideals of our
great nation, able to escape and seek asylum here right
in the land of liberty. So keep telling us that
(03:50):
by design it's not about race, because you know what,
I haven't seen in any news cycle in my life, Ramses,
someone complaining about an Irish immigrant that overstayed their visa.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah that's fair.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, I won't pretend that I see all or know awe,
I just haven't come across it. And we be looking.
I'm sorry, you know, we do as journalists, we be looking.
I know that my English don't sound that polished. I
got you, But we be looking though, right, So, like
you said, Canadian tourists being snatched up close to the
(04:28):
border and forcefully removed from the country, I've never seen it.
It's just me, right, Russian nationals Ukrainians in Miami or Chicago.
I haven't seen the joint ice federal law enforcement and
military raids to ground those people up and separate them
(04:49):
from their families and violently detain and deport them in
the places they I just never seen it. I'm not
saying it doesn't happen. I just be looking and I
don't see it, right, So I think we know the why,
and Rams does not have this thing where we both
get uncomfortable saying very obvious things out loud because people
(05:10):
accuse us of race baiting and playing the victim. We're
just telling the truth. Because if there were counter examples,
trust me, they would be amplified to a trillion by
the right yeah to have a gotcha moment. You'd see
it everywhere, so they could prove to us that they're
not racist. But all they have that is in theory.
(05:33):
They don't have any objective, factual examples to show you
to counter program or to make a counterpoint to what
we're saying.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So let me add, even if they do, they don't
have data to supplement their individual cherry picked examples.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Even if they have a cherry picked example, go ahead, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the same people that scream illegal every time an immigrant,
you know, family, crosses the desert or a body of
water to get here, they somehow don't have that same
energy when a Canadian ski instructor overstates a visa in Colorado,
or an Irish bartender in New York, or a Russian
(06:12):
real estate agent in Florida, or an Australian backpacker who's
on extended visa in California. You just never see those stories.
You never hear that outrage. The facts are white immigrants
overstay visas all the time. A white immigrant who worked
here legally became the head of the Department of Government
(06:33):
Efficiency once upon a time, admittedly worked here illegally on
an over state visa, but we know that they won't
be told to go back to their country because illegal
isn't about law, it's about control. And they've tried to
make it about race. They've successfully made it about race.
(06:56):
When they say illegal, they're not talking about documentation or
going about it the right way. Because we've seen people
get arrested, detained, and deported at their citizenship. Hearing people
that took every step, that filled out all the paperwork,
that did everything right, that went back to their country
to make sure they didn't overstay visiting and got permanent
residency and did all the steps are still have been arrested, detained,
(07:19):
and deported in the name of the law. So getting
to decide who's a human being and who isn't based
on the color of their skin, And there's irony there
right as they take away social safety nets and treat
people in a way that's inhumane, They take away your
(07:41):
power to say that your pain and your hurt matters.
And they even cheer when families are separated like that's
somehow a good thing. That's why there was no issues
with babies and cages because they didn't look like them.
And that's an unfortunate truth about illegal versus legal immigration.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
All right, well, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now we are going to discuss something that is bleak.
But we do appreciate you know, you sticking around because again,
this type of content is necessary from time to time,
and if you know it, it's always good to have
a reset. So I'm going to share a document. Fair warning,
there's a fair amount of reading here. This is called
(08:30):
the Willy Lynch Letter. Now, it is said that this
Willy Lynch Letter was delivered by a gentleman, Willie Lynch,
who was a plantation owner, and he went around instructing
other plantation owners how to keep track of their slaves
and how to break their slaves and prevent rebellions and uprisings.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
And things like that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
It's also said that the term lynching is named after
Willie Lynch.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Now this is it is also stated that this is
a work of fiction.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Oka, but it is on file with the Library of Congress,
as you know, a work of fiction that gives insight
into a time in this country's history, a time when
you were born, lived and died, and the sum total
of your life amounted to servitude. You did not have
(09:35):
the ability to dream of what you might be when
you grew up. You did not have the capacity to
dream of what the future held for your children.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
It was just what it was.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And this letter comes from that time, and this gives
insight into how masterful the play was to keep these
Africans in a state of perpetual serviitude and fear. And
then finally, this gives insight into some of the origins
(10:10):
cultural origins of you know a lot of black life
in this country. So without further ado, and for those
that want to read the full you know transcript, just
all you have to do is google Willie Lynch letter.
But I'm gonna pull out a part of it and
share with you. Again, it's a fair amount of reading,
(10:30):
so bear with me, all right. This is mister Lynch
talking to his congregation about controlling their slaves. I have
a full proof method for controlling your black slaves. I
guarantee every one of you that, if installed correctly, it
will control the slaves for at least three hundred years.
On top of my list is age, but it is
only there because it starts with A. The second is
(10:52):
color or shade. There is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations,
and status on plantations, attitude of owners, whether the slaves
live in a valley on a hill, east west, north south,
have fine hair, coarse hair, or as tall or short.
Now that you have a list of differences, I shall
give you an outline of action. But before that, I
shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust, and
(11:12):
envy is stronger than adulation, respect or admiration.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Don't forget.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
You must pitch the old black male versus the young
black male, and the young black male against the old
black male. You must use the dark skinned slaves versus
the light skin slaves, and the light skinned slaves versus
the dark skinned slaves. You must use the female versus
the male, and the male versus the female. You must
also have your white servants and overseers distrust all blacks.
(11:37):
It is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us.
They must love, respect, and trust only us. Gentlemen, these
are your keys to your control. Use them, have your
wives and children, use them. Never miss an opportunity. If
used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain
perpetually distrustful of each other. Let's make a slave. What
(12:00):
do we need? First of all, we need a black
inward male, a pregnant inWORD female, and her baby inWORD boy. Second,
we will use the same basic principle that we use
in breaking a horse, combined with some more sustaining factors.
What we do with horses, is that we break them
from one form of life to another. That is, we
(12:22):
reduce them from their natural state in nature. Whereas nature
provides them with a natural capacity to take care of
their offspring, we break that natural string of independence from
them and thereby create a dependency status so that we
may be able to get from them useful production for
our business. And accordingly, both a wild horse and a
wild or natural inward is dangerous even if captured, for
(12:46):
they will have the tendency to seek their customary freedom,
and in doing so might kill you in your sleep. Therefore,
if you break the female mother, she will break the
offspring in its early years of development, and when the
offspring is old enough to work, she will deliver it
up to you for her normal female product. Protective tendencies
will have been lost in the original breaking process. For example,
(13:09):
take the case of the wild stud horse, a female
horse and an already infant horse, and compare the breaking
process with two captured inward males in their natural state,
a pregnant inward woman and her infant offspring. Take the
stud horse, break him for limited containment. Completely break the
female horse until she becomes very gentle. Whereas you or
(13:31):
anybody can ride her in comfort. When it comes to
breaking the uncivilized inward, use the same process, but vary
the degree and step up the pressure so as to
do a complete reversal of the mind. Take the meanest
and most restless inward, Strip him of his clothes in
front of the remaining male inwards, the female and the
(13:52):
inward infant, tar and feather him. Tie each leg to
a different horse faced an opposite directions, Set him a fire,
and beat both horses to pull him apart in front
of the remaining inwards. The next step is to take
a bull whip and beat the remaining inward male to
(14:14):
the point of death in front of the female and
the infant. Don't kill him, but put the fear of
God of him, for he can be useful for future breeding.
Test her in every way, because she is the most
important factor for good economics. If she shows any sign
of resistance in submitting completely to your will, do not
hesitate to use the bullwhip on her to extract the
(14:36):
last bit of b word out of her. Take care
not to kill her, for in doing so you spoil
good economics. When in complete submission, she will train her
offsprings in the early years to submit to labor when
they come of age. Okay, I'm going to stop reading
right there. My hope was that this can serve to
(15:02):
give some insight into not just slavery, but some of
the ancillary tertiary elements, the psychological elements.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, we talked about bones being returned back to
Louisiana for a proper burial. Many people don't know that
you could buy a person for whatever reason, if you
had sexual proclivities, if you wanted to run experiments like nowadays,
(15:38):
you cannot harm a cat, you cannot harm a dog.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
There are laws in place.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right way back then, there were no laws in place
for human beings, so you could buy a person. You
could have bought Ramses. I'm not stupid, I'm not ignorant,
you know what I mean, and done whatever you wanted
to be right, you know, this letter shows how you
(16:07):
can enslave a race and keep them in a state
of fear. The woman seeing the male figure broken and
beaten in front of her, and another one ripped apart
by two horses after being set on fire, frozen because
her protector is now in two pieces in front of her,
is going to hide her baby behind her right. And
(16:30):
this psychology, this way of thinking, was justified by the Bible.
It was justified by the bogus science that you know,
these people put in place to try to say, Okay,
these people were born for servitude, right, and then even nowadays,
the most frustrating part, and I'll give you the last word, que,
(16:51):
but the most frustrating part is that they say things like, well,
slavery is good because it taught you religion, It taught
you your people's skills, as though oh, there were no
skills in Africa long before this country even existed, as
though there were no Christianity in Africa, long before this
country even existed. And it's the most insulting, hurtful and
(17:14):
intellectually dishonest thing that I've heard. And this doesn't even
begin to uncover the horrors. I'm sorry, c I just
needed to get that off. Anything you got for the
last little thing here.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
No, you said it all, well, go ahead, you know, savages,
uncivilized savages brought here and taught God and skills, way
to go slavery.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah yeah, Well, don't let that word scare you, Okay,
it does come up because it's a part of our history,
and until this country reconciles with it officially formally, we
are going to be talking about it because it still
affects us. We don't want to talk about it anymore
than you. But it's a real thing finally, you know.
(18:03):
And now it's part of the show when we normally
talk about entertainment. But I guess this could technically qualify
depending on how you look at it. But I don't
mean to be insensitive, but we're going to talk about
church and why black churches and white churches are segregated. Q.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
You grew up in the mo money mowent a three
one three, right, so you know, uh.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Let the folks know where you went to church, how
you grew up. You know, give give folks a little
bit of baground. I do the same and then will
give them the weeds.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So I grew up at Messiah Missionary Baptist Church, eighty
one hundred West seven Mile Road, Try, Michigan for eight
two two one say allow, and church was very much.
To say church is a part of my life is
an understatement like a gross one Monday, I think my
(19:08):
mother had teachers meeting Tuesday. Baptist training unit. Wednesday Bible study.
Thursday was either deacons or trustees meeting or usher meeting.
Friday was choir rehearsal. Saturday was choir rehearsal. Sunday was
service my old all the time.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So, and I wasn't there as an observer. I was
in those choirs. I was the president of that Usher board.
I was a junior trustee. And I wasn't just mom's
arm candy. I was her very very much involved son.
And every summer we had vacation Bible school. So the
(19:50):
summer when we weren't in regular school, we were in
church school, learning about the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes,
learning the books of the Bible, having Bible study, and
learning the Bible in an almost literal way. Like I didn't.
I didn't hear those words back then and give them
any type of context other than these words are exactly
(20:10):
what they mean. Do this or go to hell.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, you know what I mean. So we'll check this out.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So I my father was a minister too, so I
grew up in church and and and this was this
is a common thing, at least for folks our age.
It was certainly a lot more common, but in terms
of like the culture of black church, it has influenced
and permeated so many other areas of black life because
(20:41):
black church historically has been very important to black people.
I'm gonna skip ahead here, but the truth is, like
during slavery, the one day that the slaves didn't have
to work was Sunday because you know, in the South,
there's you know a lot of Christians in the South,
and they would let the slaves have service and that
(21:04):
would be the day of rest, right, And there were
some plantations down there where they had a black minister
who could read the Bible to the slaves and have
like a slave church. They had they had slave Bibles.
For those that don't believe, look up slave Bibles. It's
(21:24):
basically the Bible, but they tore out passages that talked
about the children of Israel seeking freedom and you know,
Pharaoh let my people go and all that sort of stuff. Right,
And so the origin story of this segregated church stuff
is rooted in slavery. And you know, for evangelicals and
(21:48):
people that you know still continue to shape politically this country,
for them to hide behind, you know, their faith and
use their faith as justification for whatever it is they're
voting for, and suggests that Jesus wants us all to
(22:09):
whatever whatever people's excuses are. You know, to those folks,
I say, you know, the proof is in the pudding.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Show me what your church looks like, show me what
your congregation looks like. And too much of this country
has always been very segregated. It's like two different realities.
So without further ado, I'm gonna share a bit. This
is from mosaicsite dot org. The story begins more than
four hundred years ago, and Christians participated in creating the
idea of race. Race is an idea or a construct,
(22:40):
not a reality. First, European colonizers began lumping people into
colors red and yellow, black and white.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
They are precious in a sight right.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
No, people are not actually red, yellow, black, or white.
But Europeans colonizing the world and using African slaves for labor,
began categorizing the world's people into colors that correlated with races,
as they believed they were biologically different. By the end
of the seventeenth century, Europeans saw themselves as white and
superior to the other colors.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Of people.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Europeans created a hierarchy of colors and racists. They said
white people were supreme, biologically superior, and the other colors
and races were inferior. They consistently placed black people, whose
slave labor made Europeans rich, at the bottom of the hierarchy. Again,
this is not my words. You can check it out
mosaics I dot org. Now I'm going to add my
words because I know this to be true. Sometime around
(23:33):
between the mid fifteen hundreds the mid sixteen hundreds, the
idea of black, the idea of white came about. Prior
to this time in human history, there was no such
thing as white people. In the Bible. There's no white people.
There's people from a country Romans, Italians, there's a you know,
(23:55):
French people, there's you know English people. Right well, there's
no white people. White people only came about as a way.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Of delineating the non.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Slave class from the slave class. It is literally imaginary.
It is something that some people made up to protect
their economics and to subjugate one group of people.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
That is the basis of the boxes you check for
your race.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And it's only four hundred years of five hundred years
old something like that. It is not a part of
our biology. It is not a part of our genetics.
It doesn't exist on that level. We are all almost
sapeyent sapiens.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I'm glad you added that last piece of color and nuance,
because when you say it's literally imaginary, that's not true.
It's a social construct, that social contract.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
That's a better way to say.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yet, but imaginary just isn't. In fact, all of us
live in this world. Now, where's that thing. It's an
actual thing. It's just not based on anything, but it's
not your imagination. That's a much better way of sam
Thank you for that. All right, I'm going to continue
with this article. In their American colonies, British colonists passed
laws that codified the colors of people and white supremacist hierarchy.
(25:12):
These laws ensured that all non white people remained at
the bottom of the social hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
They typically reduced.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Or eliminated humanity, freedom and rights of people they believed
to be not white and not European. And just so
you know, side note, this includes Native Americans, this includes
you know, Asian by everybody, right, These laws attempted to
prohibit the mixing of races and ensure that white people
remained free and in power. Racist laws and other systems
(25:42):
were justified by appealing to religious quote, scientific talked about that,
and cultural arguments that identified black people as inferior, barbaric,
and sexually promiscuous. Though the modern races were constructed in
the sixteenth century, codified in the seventeenth eighteen six entries,
and remain part of everyday conversation in American in twenty nineteen,
(26:03):
despite the fact that we now know race is not
a biological reality. Throughout the hundreds of years of colonization
in slavery, both pro slavery and most anti slavery white
Christians adopted the view that black people were biologically and
unalterably inferior to white folks. Some white Christians even argued
that enslaved people could not become Christians, but most white
(26:24):
Christians eventually believed that enslaved black people would be better
slaves if they converted to Christianity. Regardless, most churches were segregated,
and before the end of slavery in the eighteen sixties,
if white Christians did allow non white people into their churches,
they had to sit in the back or in balconies.
One can understand why black people left these white churches
as soon as it was legally possible. The racism black
(26:45):
people experienced in white churches was insufferable and anti Christian.
The final segregation of American Christian communities happened after the
Civil War of the eighteen sixties. Most Black Christians left
white communities and created independent African denominations and congregate. They're
still with us today. Black people left white churches because
of the sin of racism. Furthermore, most white Christians favored
(27:07):
the segregation of churches. From the eighteen sixties to the
nineteen seventies. Many white Christians, including Churches of Christ, even
gave their resources to ensure that black people had separate
spaces for worship. From then until now, when Christian communities
gather on Sunday mornings to worship a Savior who broke
down every potential division between his people and called them
(27:30):
into unity rooted in the love of God, they worship
for the most part in racially homogeneous communities. So there's
the basis for this, the separation of churches. But I
want to invite anybody who's never been to a black
church to go. I promise I grew up in church.
(27:50):
Is it is the most fun, It is the most love.
And I think that if you really want a true
glimpse in the heaven, you're going to find it there.
So put that in mind.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
We're going to leave it right there. How you feeling,
que man.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
We're here. We're here, our reality being shaped by those
who come before us, and that refuse to acknowledge the
ugliness of our history is the single most present thing
that stands in a way of actual progress for us.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Well, one foot in front of the other, and that's
that's what we're going to do. So we're going to
leave that right here. That's it for the QR code
for today. Our show is produced by Chris Thompson. And
have some thoughts you'd like to share, use the red
microphone talk back feature on the iHeartRadio app. While you're there,
be sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes.
Be sure to check us out on all social media
at Civic Cipher. I am your host Ramsey's jaw on
(28:46):
on social media.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I am q Ward on all social media as well,
and be
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Sure to check us out tomorrow as we share our
news with our voice from our perspective right here on
the QR code
Still broadcasting from the Civic Cipher Studios. This is the
QR code where we share perspective, seek understanding, and shape outcomes.
I am your host, Ramsey's job, he.
Speaker 2 (00:09):
Is your host. I just work here. My name is
q Ward.
Speaker 1 (00:14):
Q is your host too, And make no mistake, And
you know, we are in the middle of our.
Speaker 3 (00:23):
History episode.
Speaker 1 (00:24):
I guess we'll call it that, where we're kind of
looking back and trying to provide context in lea foundation
for the conversations that we have had and will have.
And we're hoping that in doing this, you know, people
will have a stronger framework in which, you know, receiving
information will work a little bit better. We're still going
to be talking about the Willie Lynch letter. If you
(00:45):
haven't heard of that before, it's stay tuned. It is
a riveting read. But we're also going to ask the
question why are black and white churches so segregated on
Sunday morning? And we're going to dig into the history
of that too. But before we get there, it is
time for Q words clapback. And you know you said
something to me, Q You said, illegal is not a race.
(01:11):
So what did you mean by that?
Speaker 2 (01:14):
You know, compassion doesn't need a green card or a
visa or the right passport or the right documents, and
our countries kind of prevailing view on immigration and the
cruelty of that view is how for you know, decades now,
(01:36):
people have been able to galvanize a base to vote
for them or against them using their ideas of how
aggressive and cruel we should be to immigrants. And it's
an interesting thing to observe, right, because if you notice
it when they try to use the myth of legality
(01:56):
with regards to immigrants. Over our country's history, people have
used the law and sometimes even the Bible to mask
blatant cruelty, and they'll know argue to their base, or
actually argue more to people like us that hey, it's
(02:17):
not about race, it's not about hatred. We're not stoking fear.
We're just upholding the law. Sure, but somehow that obsession
with law only seems to be pointed at people that
cross the border who have melanated brown skin. Funny how
(02:37):
that continues to be the truth. Yeah, So, Ramses and
I have had conversations with people who will tell us hey, man,
if people will just come here the right way, you
know what I mean? Like everything will be fine, and Ramsey,
I love to ask, and I know this is q's clapback,
but what's the right way? I mean, because we know
(03:01):
the processes, but that process is not checkbox A checkbox
B Welcome to America. Like, that's not how it works.
It's kind of based on the lawyer you hire and
the court you go to in the state. And yeah,
you know what I mean. So for some people, that
legal pathway could take a decade or longer.
Speaker 3 (03:21):
I knowed somebody was two decades.
Speaker 2 (03:23):
For some people, there is no straightforward legal pathway period.
Some people are fleeing poverty stricken, violent, scary places, and
they're supposed to be, based on the ideals of our
great nation, able to escape and seek asylum here right
in the land of liberty. So keep telling us that
(03:50):
by design it's not about race, because you know what,
I haven't seen in any news cycle in my life, Ramses,
someone complaining about an Irish immigrant that overstayed their visa.
Speaker 3 (04:04):
Yeah that's fair.
Speaker 2 (04:06):
Yeah, I won't pretend that I see all or know awe,
I just haven't come across it. And we be looking.
I'm sorry, you know, we do as journalists, we be looking.
I know that my English don't sound that polished. I
got you, But we be looking though, right, So, like
you said, Canadian tourists being snatched up close to the
(04:28):
border and forcefully removed from the country, I've never seen it.
It's just me, right, Russian nationals Ukrainians in Miami or Chicago.
I haven't seen the joint ice federal law enforcement and
military raids to ground those people up and separate them
(04:49):
from their families and violently detain and deport them in
the places they I just never seen it. I'm not
saying it doesn't happen. I just be looking and I
don't see it, right, So I think we know the why,
and Rams does not have this thing where we both
get uncomfortable saying very obvious things out loud because people
(05:10):
accuse us of race baiting and playing the victim. We're
just telling the truth. Because if there were counter examples,
trust me, they would be amplified to a trillion by
the right yeah to have a gotcha moment. You'd see
it everywhere, so they could prove to us that they're
not racist. But all they have that is in theory.
(05:33):
They don't have any objective, factual examples to show you
to counter program or to make a counterpoint to what
we're saying.
Speaker 1 (05:40):
So let me add, even if they do, they don't
have data to supplement their individual cherry picked examples.
Speaker 2 (05:49):
Correct.
Speaker 3 (05:49):
Even if they have a cherry picked example, go ahead, correct.
Speaker 2 (05:52):
So the same people that scream illegal every time an immigrant,
you know, family, crosses the desert or a body of
water to get here, they somehow don't have that same
energy when a Canadian ski instructor overstates a visa in Colorado,
or an Irish bartender in New York, or a Russian
(06:12):
real estate agent in Florida, or an Australian backpacker who's
on extended visa in California. You just never see those stories.
You never hear that outrage. The facts are white immigrants
overstay visas all the time. A white immigrant who worked
here legally became the head of the Department of Government
(06:33):
Efficiency once upon a time, admittedly worked here illegally on
an over state visa, but we know that they won't
be told to go back to their country because illegal
isn't about law, it's about control. And they've tried to
make it about race. They've successfully made it about race.
(06:56):
When they say illegal, they're not talking about documentation or
going about it the right way. Because we've seen people
get arrested, detained, and deported at their citizenship. Hearing people
that took every step, that filled out all the paperwork,
that did everything right, that went back to their country
to make sure they didn't overstay visiting and got permanent
residency and did all the steps are still have been arrested, detained,
(07:19):
and deported in the name of the law. So getting
to decide who's a human being and who isn't based
on the color of their skin, And there's irony there
right as they take away social safety nets and treat
people in a way that's inhumane, They take away your
(07:41):
power to say that your pain and your hurt matters.
And they even cheer when families are separated like that's
somehow a good thing. That's why there was no issues
with babies and cages because they didn't look like them.
And that's an unfortunate truth about illegal versus legal immigration.
Speaker 3 (08:03):
All right, well, you know.
Speaker 1 (08:06):
Now we are going to discuss something that is bleak.
But we do appreciate you know, you sticking around because again,
this type of content is necessary from time to time,
and if you know it, it's always good to have
a reset. So I'm going to share a document. Fair warning,
there's a fair amount of reading here. This is called
(08:30):
the Willy Lynch Letter. Now, it is said that this
Willy Lynch Letter was delivered by a gentleman, Willie Lynch,
who was a plantation owner, and he went around instructing
other plantation owners how to keep track of their slaves
and how to break their slaves and prevent rebellions and uprisings.
Speaker 3 (08:54):
And things like that.
Speaker 1 (08:56):
It's also said that the term lynching is named after
Willie Lynch.
Speaker 3 (09:04):
Now this is it is also stated that this is
a work of fiction.
Speaker 1 (09:12):
Oka, but it is on file with the Library of Congress,
as you know, a work of fiction that gives insight
into a time in this country's history, a time when
you were born, lived and died, and the sum total
of your life amounted to servitude. You did not have
(09:35):
the ability to dream of what you might be when
you grew up. You did not have the capacity to
dream of what the future held for your children.
Speaker 3 (09:45):
It was just what it was.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
And this letter comes from that time, and this gives
insight into how masterful the play was to keep these
Africans in a state of perpetual serviitude and fear. And
then finally, this gives insight into some of the origins
(10:10):
cultural origins of you know a lot of black life
in this country. So without further ado, and for those
that want to read the full you know transcript, just
all you have to do is google Willie Lynch letter.
But I'm gonna pull out a part of it and
share with you. Again, it's a fair amount of reading,
(10:30):
so bear with me, all right. This is mister Lynch
talking to his congregation about controlling their slaves. I have
a full proof method for controlling your black slaves. I
guarantee every one of you that, if installed correctly, it
will control the slaves for at least three hundred years.
On top of my list is age, but it is
only there because it starts with A. The second is
(10:52):
color or shade. There is intelligence, size, sex, size of plantations,
and status on plantations, attitude of owners, whether the slaves
live in a valley on a hill, east west, north south,
have fine hair, coarse hair, or as tall or short.
Now that you have a list of differences, I shall
give you an outline of action. But before that, I
shall assure you that distrust is stronger than trust, and
(11:12):
envy is stronger than adulation, respect or admiration.
Speaker 2 (11:16):
Don't forget.
Speaker 1 (11:17):
You must pitch the old black male versus the young
black male, and the young black male against the old
black male. You must use the dark skinned slaves versus
the light skin slaves, and the light skinned slaves versus
the dark skinned slaves. You must use the female versus
the male, and the male versus the female. You must
also have your white servants and overseers distrust all blacks.
(11:37):
It is necessary that your slaves trust and depend on us.
They must love, respect, and trust only us. Gentlemen, these
are your keys to your control. Use them, have your
wives and children, use them. Never miss an opportunity. If
used intensely for one year, the slaves themselves will remain
perpetually distrustful of each other. Let's make a slave. What
(12:00):
do we need? First of all, we need a black
inward male, a pregnant inWORD female, and her baby inWORD boy. Second,
we will use the same basic principle that we use
in breaking a horse, combined with some more sustaining factors.
What we do with horses, is that we break them
from one form of life to another. That is, we
(12:22):
reduce them from their natural state in nature. Whereas nature
provides them with a natural capacity to take care of
their offspring, we break that natural string of independence from
them and thereby create a dependency status so that we
may be able to get from them useful production for
our business. And accordingly, both a wild horse and a
wild or natural inward is dangerous even if captured, for
(12:46):
they will have the tendency to seek their customary freedom,
and in doing so might kill you in your sleep. Therefore,
if you break the female mother, she will break the
offspring in its early years of development, and when the
offspring is old enough to work, she will deliver it
up to you for her normal female product. Protective tendencies
will have been lost in the original breaking process. For example,
(13:09):
take the case of the wild stud horse, a female
horse and an already infant horse, and compare the breaking
process with two captured inward males in their natural state,
a pregnant inward woman and her infant offspring. Take the
stud horse, break him for limited containment. Completely break the
female horse until she becomes very gentle. Whereas you or
(13:31):
anybody can ride her in comfort. When it comes to
breaking the uncivilized inward, use the same process, but vary
the degree and step up the pressure so as to
do a complete reversal of the mind. Take the meanest
and most restless inward, Strip him of his clothes in
front of the remaining male inwards, the female and the
(13:52):
inward infant, tar and feather him. Tie each leg to
a different horse faced an opposite directions, Set him a fire,
and beat both horses to pull him apart in front
of the remaining inwards. The next step is to take
a bull whip and beat the remaining inward male to
(14:14):
the point of death in front of the female and
the infant. Don't kill him, but put the fear of
God of him, for he can be useful for future breeding.
Test her in every way, because she is the most
important factor for good economics. If she shows any sign
of resistance in submitting completely to your will, do not
hesitate to use the bullwhip on her to extract the
(14:36):
last bit of b word out of her. Take care
not to kill her, for in doing so you spoil
good economics. When in complete submission, she will train her
offsprings in the early years to submit to labor when
they come of age. Okay, I'm going to stop reading
right there. My hope was that this can serve to
(15:02):
give some insight into not just slavery, but some of
the ancillary tertiary elements, the psychological elements.
Speaker 3 (15:15):
Right.
Speaker 1 (15:15):
You know, we talked about bones being returned back to
Louisiana for a proper burial. Many people don't know that
you could buy a person for whatever reason, if you
had sexual proclivities, if you wanted to run experiments like nowadays,
(15:38):
you cannot harm a cat, you cannot harm a dog.
Speaker 3 (15:42):
There are laws in place.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
Right way back then, there were no laws in place
for human beings, so you could buy a person. You
could have bought Ramses. I'm not stupid, I'm not ignorant,
you know what I mean, and done whatever you wanted
to be right, you know, this letter shows how you
(16:07):
can enslave a race and keep them in a state
of fear. The woman seeing the male figure broken and
beaten in front of her, and another one ripped apart
by two horses after being set on fire, frozen because
her protector is now in two pieces in front of her,
is going to hide her baby behind her right. And
(16:30):
this psychology, this way of thinking, was justified by the Bible.
It was justified by the bogus science that you know,
these people put in place to try to say, Okay,
these people were born for servitude, right, and then even nowadays,
the most frustrating part, and I'll give you the last word, que,
(16:51):
but the most frustrating part is that they say things like, well,
slavery is good because it taught you religion, It taught
you your people's skills, as though oh, there were no
skills in Africa long before this country even existed, as
though there were no Christianity in Africa, long before this
country even existed. And it's the most insulting, hurtful and
(17:14):
intellectually dishonest thing that I've heard. And this doesn't even
begin to uncover the horrors. I'm sorry, c I just
needed to get that off. Anything you got for the
last little thing here.
Speaker 2 (17:29):
No, you said it all, well, go ahead, you know, savages,
uncivilized savages brought here and taught God and skills, way
to go slavery.
Speaker 1 (17:39):
Yeah yeah, Well, don't let that word scare you, Okay,
it does come up because it's a part of our history,
and until this country reconciles with it officially formally, we
are going to be talking about it because it still
affects us. We don't want to talk about it anymore
than you. But it's a real thing finally, you know.
(18:03):
And now it's part of the show when we normally
talk about entertainment. But I guess this could technically qualify
depending on how you look at it. But I don't
mean to be insensitive, but we're going to talk about
church and why black churches and white churches are segregated. Q.
Speaker 3 (18:29):
You grew up in the mo money mowent a three
one three, right, so you know, uh.
Speaker 1 (18:37):
Let the folks know where you went to church, how
you grew up. You know, give give folks a little
bit of baground. I do the same and then will
give them the weeds.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
So I grew up at Messiah Missionary Baptist Church, eighty
one hundred West seven Mile Road, Try, Michigan for eight
two two one say allow, and church was very much.
To say church is a part of my life is
an understatement like a gross one Monday, I think my
(19:08):
mother had teachers meeting Tuesday. Baptist training unit. Wednesday Bible study.
Thursday was either deacons or trustees meeting or usher meeting.
Friday was choir rehearsal. Saturday was choir rehearsal. Sunday was
service my old all the time.
Speaker 3 (19:28):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (19:29):
So, and I wasn't there as an observer. I was
in those choirs. I was the president of that Usher board.
I was a junior trustee. And I wasn't just mom's
arm candy. I was her very very much involved son.
And every summer we had vacation Bible school. So the
(19:50):
summer when we weren't in regular school, we were in
church school, learning about the Ten Commandments and the Beatitudes,
learning the books of the Bible, having Bible study, and
learning the Bible in an almost literal way. Like I didn't.
I didn't hear those words back then and give them
any type of context other than these words are exactly
(20:10):
what they mean. Do this or go to hell.
Speaker 3 (20:12):
That's it.
Speaker 2 (20:13):
Yeah, you know what I mean. So we'll check this out.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
So I my father was a minister too, so I
grew up in church and and and this was this
is a common thing, at least for folks our age.
It was certainly a lot more common, but in terms
of like the culture of black church, it has influenced
and permeated so many other areas of black life because
(20:41):
black church historically has been very important to black people.
I'm gonna skip ahead here, but the truth is, like
during slavery, the one day that the slaves didn't have
to work was Sunday because you know, in the South,
there's you know a lot of Christians in the South,
and they would let the slaves have service and that
(21:04):
would be the day of rest, right, And there were
some plantations down there where they had a black minister
who could read the Bible to the slaves and have
like a slave church. They had they had slave Bibles.
For those that don't believe, look up slave Bibles. It's
(21:24):
basically the Bible, but they tore out passages that talked
about the children of Israel seeking freedom and you know,
Pharaoh let my people go and all that sort of stuff. Right,
And so the origin story of this segregated church stuff
is rooted in slavery. And you know, for evangelicals and
(21:48):
people that you know still continue to shape politically this country,
for them to hide behind, you know, their faith and
use their faith as justification for whatever it is they're
voting for, and suggests that Jesus wants us all to
(22:09):
whatever whatever people's excuses are. You know, to those folks,
I say, you know, the proof is in the pudding.
Speaker 3 (22:15):
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Show me what your church looks like, show me what
your congregation looks like. And too much of this country
has always been very segregated. It's like two different realities.
So without further ado, I'm gonna share a bit. This
is from mosaicsite dot org. The story begins more than
four hundred years ago, and Christians participated in creating the
idea of race. Race is an idea or a construct,
(22:40):
not a reality. First, European colonizers began lumping people into
colors red and yellow, black and white.
Speaker 3 (22:45):
They are precious in a sight right.
Speaker 1 (22:47):
No, people are not actually red, yellow, black, or white.
But Europeans colonizing the world and using African slaves for labor,
began categorizing the world's people into colors that correlated with races,
as they believed they were biologically different. By the end
of the seventeenth century, Europeans saw themselves as white and
superior to the other colors.
Speaker 3 (23:07):
Of people.
Speaker 1 (23:08):
Europeans created a hierarchy of colors and racists. They said
white people were supreme, biologically superior, and the other colors
and races were inferior. They consistently placed black people, whose
slave labor made Europeans rich, at the bottom of the hierarchy. Again,
this is not my words. You can check it out
mosaics I dot org. Now I'm going to add my
words because I know this to be true. Sometime around
(23:33):
between the mid fifteen hundreds the mid sixteen hundreds, the
idea of black, the idea of white came about. Prior
to this time in human history, there was no such
thing as white people. In the Bible. There's no white people.
There's people from a country Romans, Italians, there's a you know,
(23:55):
French people, there's you know English people. Right well, there's
no white people. White people only came about as a way.
Speaker 3 (24:05):
Of delineating the non.
Speaker 1 (24:07):
Slave class from the slave class. It is literally imaginary.
It is something that some people made up to protect
their economics and to subjugate one group of people.
Speaker 3 (24:23):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (24:23):
That is the basis of the boxes you check for
your race.
Speaker 2 (24:27):
That's it.
Speaker 1 (24:28):
And it's only four hundred years of five hundred years
old something like that. It is not a part of
our biology. It is not a part of our genetics.
It doesn't exist on that level. We are all almost
sapeyent sapiens.
Speaker 2 (24:41):
I'm glad you added that last piece of color and nuance,
because when you say it's literally imaginary, that's not true.
It's a social construct, that social contract.
Speaker 3 (24:50):
That's a better way to say.
Speaker 2 (24:51):
Yet, but imaginary just isn't. In fact, all of us
live in this world. Now, where's that thing. It's an
actual thing. It's just not based on anything, but it's
not your imagination. That's a much better way of sam
Thank you for that. All right, I'm going to continue
with this article. In their American colonies, British colonists passed
laws that codified the colors of people and white supremacist hierarchy.
(25:12):
These laws ensured that all non white people remained at
the bottom of the social hierarchy.
Speaker 3 (25:18):
They typically reduced.
Speaker 1 (25:19):
Or eliminated humanity, freedom and rights of people they believed
to be not white and not European. And just so
you know, side note, this includes Native Americans, this includes
you know, Asian by everybody, right, These laws attempted to
prohibit the mixing of races and ensure that white people
remained free and in power. Racist laws and other systems
(25:42):
were justified by appealing to religious quote, scientific talked about that,
and cultural arguments that identified black people as inferior, barbaric,
and sexually promiscuous. Though the modern races were constructed in
the sixteenth century, codified in the seventeenth eighteen six entries,
and remain part of everyday conversation in American in twenty nineteen,
(26:03):
despite the fact that we now know race is not
a biological reality. Throughout the hundreds of years of colonization
in slavery, both pro slavery and most anti slavery white
Christians adopted the view that black people were biologically and
unalterably inferior to white folks. Some white Christians even argued
that enslaved people could not become Christians, but most white
(26:24):
Christians eventually believed that enslaved black people would be better
slaves if they converted to Christianity. Regardless, most churches were segregated,
and before the end of slavery in the eighteen sixties,
if white Christians did allow non white people into their churches,
they had to sit in the back or in balconies.
One can understand why black people left these white churches
as soon as it was legally possible. The racism black
(26:45):
people experienced in white churches was insufferable and anti Christian.
The final segregation of American Christian communities happened after the
Civil War of the eighteen sixties. Most Black Christians left
white communities and created independent African denominations and congregate. They're
still with us today. Black people left white churches because
of the sin of racism. Furthermore, most white Christians favored
(27:07):
the segregation of churches. From the eighteen sixties to the
nineteen seventies. Many white Christians, including Churches of Christ, even
gave their resources to ensure that black people had separate
spaces for worship. From then until now, when Christian communities
gather on Sunday mornings to worship a Savior who broke
down every potential division between his people and called them
(27:30):
into unity rooted in the love of God, they worship
for the most part in racially homogeneous communities. So there's
the basis for this, the separation of churches. But I
want to invite anybody who's never been to a black
church to go. I promise I grew up in church.
(27:50):
Is it is the most fun, It is the most love.
And I think that if you really want a true
glimpse in the heaven, you're going to find it there.
So put that in mind.
Speaker 3 (28:02):
We're going to leave it right there. How you feeling,
que man.
Speaker 2 (28:06):
We're here. We're here, our reality being shaped by those
who come before us, and that refuse to acknowledge the
ugliness of our history is the single most present thing
that stands in a way of actual progress for us.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Well, one foot in front of the other, and that's
that's what we're going to do. So we're going to
leave that right here. That's it for the QR code
for today. Our show is produced by Chris Thompson. And
have some thoughts you'd like to share, use the red
microphone talk back feature on the iHeartRadio app. While you're there,
be sure to hit subscribe and download all of our episodes.
Be sure to check us out on all social media
at Civic Cipher. I am your host Ramsey's jaw on
(28:46):
on social media.
Speaker 2 (28:47):
I am q Ward on all social media as well,
and be
Speaker 1 (28:50):
Sure to check us out tomorrow as we share our
news with our voice from our perspective right here on
the QR code
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